DVD Guy ATL

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10018918-1.html

GreenMonkey

I'm curious to see how this performs. We still have tons of SD-DVDs.

Hopefully reviewers will have them in hand soon. I want a comparison against a Toshiba HD-XA2 or some other Reon-based player

mzupeman2

It sounds absolutely terrible.

Spiky

You can always tell the junk from the real stuff. Too many adjectives on this crap from Toshiba just screams, "I will suck!!"

lordzeppelin

But is it really going to do that much better of a job than my HD-A2 currently does at upconverting?

clckworang

I've waiting to get a good upconverting player, preferably an all-region one. From the sound of it, it looks like I'll be ordering the Oppo instead.

gimmepilotwings

Exactly. I don't see how it could do much better.

Josh-da-man

So this is Toshiba's answer to high definition?

Edge enhancement?

April Fools was five months ago...

nateman

This thread has some good thoughts and opinions on this subject: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=532682

Quite frankly I'm pleased with the upconverting my Insignia Blu-ray Disc Player (NS-BRDVD) does. I would like to see some reviews on this new player, however. I think it's about time they stop making more upconverting DVD players and work on making BD players the best players for DVD upconversion. Toshiba lost the format war. It's as simple as that. I didn't really care which HD disc format won the format war; as long as there was only one HD disc format available. I think Toshiba should ditch this plan and start building the best BD player with the best upconversion for DVDs. It shows that they aren't sore losers and can still compete against Sony, but this time competing against them in making the best Blu-ray player on the market.

Gizmo

I'll be comparing it to my XA2 as soon as Best Buy stocks them,.

mzupeman2

Why would anyone even bother to compare it to anything at all? Toshiba isn't totally re-inventing their upconverting technology I'm sure. They're probably tacking on edge enhancement and pre-calibrated settings for picture you change (like on your TV) to completely over-saturate the colors and blind you with rediculous contrast. Edge enhancement is a huge no-no, never EVER has been used to say anything GOOD about a transfer, and altering the picture to give you HDTV factory settings look is just stupid. Toshiba had a great thing with HD-DVD. I preferred it. But they LOST. And I'm now happily a blu-ray owner just happy that there's only one HD format to buy from. However, not only is their latest idea just plain awful, it's a slap in the face to the consumer. They really must think less of us than Sony if this is how they're proceeding.

Gizmo

They are making a better upconverter...simple as that. If you don't want it don't buy it.

Me? I have several hundred DVDs that have little to no chance of ever coming out on Blu-ray (or if so will be $20-$40 each) so if this makes them look better I'm in. I have way too many DVDs I have no intentions of selling for $2-3 to replace with a much more expensive Blu-ray.

Comparing it to an XA2 makes sense as its one of the best upconverters available - which I own.

Spiky

You are missing the point, Gizmo. They are NOT making a better upconverter, they are making a worse one and are marketing it as better because people are morons.

mzupeman2

Right. I highly doubt they're really working on a better upconverting technology, they're only using probably what's in their HD-DVD players for upconverting and throwing in the ability to add edge enhancement and screw with picture settings.

Gizmo

So if it produces a better picture then Oppo's...what next? Fact is, the picture looks better then upconverters - regardless of the methods they are using. If it produces a better picture than my XA2 I'm in.

And if they market it and it sells good for them. They are going to be doing some extensive marketing with this so if "stupid" people buy it so be it. "Stupid" people buy things all the time and if they want to save $150 and not have to spend $20-$40 for Blu-ray discs then they should have every right to.

Before you start dissing something you've never even seen in person - why not check it out? They apparently will be getting their own endcap at Best Buys soon so you can compare between that and a Blu-ray or another up-converter. I know I'll be buying the first one I see.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3994

mzupeman2

I can understand if maybe it will look better than the HD-DVD players upconverting, which were the best for doing so (but I doubt it, highly). However, what they're saying above is silly. I'd love to know the calibrations on the sets. Spider-Man 3 is practically reference quality blu-ray material.

Josh-da-man

I'm sorry, but there's just no way you're going to get a SD image to look better than a HD image.

Take a .jpg file that's 640x480, then upscale it to 1440x1080. You can do things to image to make it look better; smooth out jagged edges and such, but there's nothing you can do to make it look like a native 1440x1080 image. The bigger image is just going to have more detail, period.

And I have no idea how packing the image with EE isn't going to look like shit on a large screen. Maybe it's going to look better to the untrained eye, but Jesus, edge enhancement drives me nuts even on a 27" SDTV.

[DT]

When I read about this several weeks ago, I thought it sounded like "Super Up-Conversion" - an upscaling procedure that uses not only data from the current frames but also from previous and next frames.

I had been reading about "Super-resolution" algo's for years. The big trick beyond the old single frame, spatial methods, is motion compensation which gives a better prediction on the missing image/frame data (based on new pixels that move into the adjacent space[s]).

(I have some good tech links, but can't post them yet...)

Of course based on processor limitation (and the fact you're dealing with a real time stream) you can only forecast so far in advance, plus sudden extreme motions that can't be predicted result in faulty data (or back to a spatial "best guess" to backfill the required stream). Then I even read that this new tech would somehow involve the Sony/PS3 Cell processor (they bought into the manufacturing like 60%), which would be funny considering everything that happened with the "HD War".

Interesting stuff - I'd say if it approaches what's being done with "offline" processing it'll be very, very good (even better than the current upscaling chip-champs like Reon). However, it'll still vary greatly between source content. Predictive image data will never surpass pre-determined HD content.

I agree about the general bad taste that Toshiba left in people's mouths regarding anything HD. I know I'm still a little cranky, though I did return my HD-D player and pretty much get into BD without too much lost investment.

It'll be interesting to see how many people get deflected from BD for this tech. I'd figure it *has* to be cheap, overcome T's negative marketing issues and get positioned properly (if I were spinning it, I'd say it's the stop gap between physcal and downloaded media - kind of position BD as an expensive interim tech).

~DT

Gizmo

XA2 is still regarded as one of the best upconverters available - better/comparable to Oppo's etc. The Samsung 1200//UP 5000 players also have the REAON ship, but I don't think they have the amount of settings the XA2 has (Noise Reduction, EE etc.)

Personally I can't imagine the XDE producing a better picture than my XA2, but still, I'll purchase it when I see it and if it does not, it goes back to Best Buy.

Gizmo

There is very little doubt in my mind that Toshiba won't drop this to $99 come Holiday time to be a bit more comparable to other Upconverters. Its almost funny to see the backlash this is getting against BD supporters on other forums - like Toshiba is coming out and saying "BLU-RAY SUCKS! GET THIS". If this was ANY other CE they wouldn't have an issue with it, but since its Toshiba, its the devil trying to kill their precious Blu discs.

mzupeman2

The quote you had Gizmo, about the three different TV's in standard mode, doesn't really mean anything. Standard mode will usually make the picture quality look terrible and really bring out a lot of flaws. To use a standard DVD upconverter that's on the cheap, to use the new XDE which is more than likely glorified remnants of HD-DVD players with one click settings like an HDTV built in, isn't going to prove much of anything. You're using a poor quality upconverter next to one with superior upconverting capabilities from an HD-DVD player technology.

And then to compare the XDE to a Spiderman 3 blu-ray and say the XDE image looks sharper? This still doesn't say very much. The names 'Extended Definition DVD Player' is highly misleading for the average joe consumer. You can't, you CAN'T, ADD definition that's not on the source. You can make the image sharper, you can try and cut down the aliasing, you can add edge enhancement for the ILLUSION of a picture being sharper, but the blu-ray disc is the end all. If the picture looks sharper than what was filmed, then the picture is being ruined and misrepresented.

I'm curious to know how far away the TV's were from sight, and if people were actively looking for edge enhancement or not. It will be interesting to see some screenshots.

Gizmo

Is there always this much hate towards upconverting players or is it because Sony won and Toshiba lost the HD war? Its an upconverter player that may be able to produce a better picture than normal ones. Toshiba is not planning a marketing campaign of "Blu-ray sucks", its simply using the PS3 cell to produce hopefully better picture for those that want to stick with DVD. Again, if this was any other CE there would be no issues with it but becauses its Toshiba its pure hate. If this was Oppo we would have numerous people claiming how amazing it will be etc. Simply fact is it plays DVDs not Blu-rays. If you really fear that a upconverting DVD player will kill Blu-ray or deter people from buying Blu-ray then obviously there are bigger issues at play.

I want my hundreds of DVDs to look good. If this succeeds I'll keep it. If not, it goes back to Best Buy and you can look for the opend box special.

Spiky

So, it's ok to rave over something that you've never seen, to the point that you are sure you will buy one, sight unseen? But not ok to think that it might suck?

I have seen EE. If their new "secret technology" is EE, it will suck. But, as it has been for years, EE is "supposed to" make it look better. (this is not a Toshiba-only issue) It's just that only those who don't actually care about video quality will accept it. And I'm just going on their copy, posted above.

And no, Best Buy end-caps are NOT the place to see if something is worthwhile. Please.

I doubt very much that Toshiba is capable of beating the Reon (esp at $150 price point for a DVDp), which is made by a company that does nothing but upconversion. They should just stick to purchasing upconverters and putting it in their players.

Sorry, call me a cynic.

Spiky

And BTW, I've never said Oppos were all that great, so don't assume. The Faroudja 2310 that they used for most of their models until just recently really is not my favorite, not even for de-interlacing let alone upconverting. I had it once (in a Toshiba HDTV BTW) and while it was decent, it does not compete with even the Reon. Which is HQV's low-end model.

I'm actually looking at a preamp with the Reon to avoid any issues at all. I have more sources than DVD, so I'll be happy to have it later in the path.

DVD Polizei

It would be cheaper to play your SD DVDs through your computer, using one of several available video apps which sharpen the video image. Simpy output to your TV/Monitor.