Bottom line, whatever player the Sox plug in, in LF he will not be as good a hitter as Manny.
I don't know how much the Manny drama weighs into the whole equation (the lack of it making the Sox THAT much better?), but looking at it objectively, the bloom is off the rose with Boston this season. I just have a feeling.
Yanks fans and Red Sox fans might not want to hear this, but I think the Rays have the best chance to win the division. They have the least on the field/clubhouse problems. It's a razor thin edge in my mind, but it's there.
lordwow
07-31-08, 07:13 AM
Got this from the Cheapassgamer forum:
The Palm Beach Post says a tentative agreement has been reached, despite Gammons' comments. Here's the deal:
Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox, perhaps another prospect from Marlins
Damn it. I wanted Bay to the Braves in the offseason.
al_bundy
07-31-08, 07:30 AM
high hopes for the Mets this year
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 07:52 AM
damn griffey a sock
Goat3001
07-31-08, 07:53 AM
Bottom line, whatever player the Sox plug in, in LF he will not be as good a hitter as Manny.
Agreed. Sox fans can sugarcoat it all they want and Jason Bay is indeed a good player but its going to be hard to replace Manny. Bay's numbers might be similar but Bay has never had a clutch at bat in his career. The Sox wouldn't have come close to sniffing a World Series without Manny, and while he's up there in age he's still on pace to have a .300+, 30+, 120+ season. The Red Sox will probably still make the playoffs, but it won't be until October when they start missing Manny.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 08:16 AM
Agreed. Sox fans can sugarcoat it all they want and Jason Bay is indeed a good player but its going to be hard to replace Manny. Bay's numbers might be similar but Bay has never had a clutch at bat in his career. The Sox wouldn't have come close to sniffing a World Series without Manny, and while he's up there in age he's still on pace to have a .300+, 30+, 120+ season. The Red Sox will probably still make the playoffs, but it won't be until October when they start missing Manny.
It's true, though the general pulse is that Sox fans aren't sugarcoating it. As I said yesterday, you can say Manny loafs or whatever, and yes he's a prick, and who knows if any of the Gammons (hit) piece from a couple of days ago is true about him begging out against good pitchers as of late. But you know what you're getting, and it's a raker. He just hits.
The proposed deal (especially since Grabow seems to be heading to FL, not Boston, in the actual possible trade) doesn't make Boston better. At best, it makes them equal to their struggling selves, and probably makes them worse this year. And when other teams are getting better at the deadline, it's even tougher to watch.
chrisih8u
07-31-08, 08:27 AM
Gammons/Manny is like the opposite of Peter King/Brett Favre.
BravesMG
07-31-08, 08:37 AM
Gammons/Manny is like the opposite of Peter King/Brett Favre.:) Good point.
Did anyone else see the Baseball Tonight prior to the Cubs/Brewers game last night? It looked like Gammons wanted to kill Steve Phillips for his position that the Sox would be nuts to trade Manny. Gammons is obviously too close to the situation, he wasn't even understanding Phillips' argument and there was a really weird conversation where Gammons said that Phillips was blaming Francona for the whole ordeal. That was as legit pissed off as I've ever seen Gammons. I'm not a Phillips fan, but he was making a reasonable argument and Gammons wasn't having any of it.
matta
07-31-08, 08:46 AM
Marlins send D. Uggla to the Braves for Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francoeur
matta
07-31-08, 08:48 AM
Thats an imperative sentence not a declaratory sentence.
cardsfan111
07-31-08, 08:53 AM
:) Good point.
Did anyone else see the Baseball Tonight prior to the Cubs/Brewers game last night? It looked like Gammons wanted to kill Steve Phillips for his position that the Sox would be nuts to trade Manny. Gammons is obviously too close to the situation, he wasn't even understanding Phillips' argument and there was a really weird conversation where Gammons said that Phillips was blaming Francona for the whole ordeal. That was as legit pissed off as I've ever seen Gammons. I'm not a Phillips fan, but he was making a reasonable argument and Gammons wasn't having any of it.
Your illustration remined me of a conversation I had with a friend while watching the Brewers/Cubs game last night. Dempster came up to the plate with 1 out and a guy on 2nd and the play-by-play guy said "Let's see if he's up there to bunt." I thought there's no way he's bunting with 1 out to move the guy over to 3rd. Then I wondered if many times analysts hear their partner make some off-base statement and have to bite their tongue so they don't scream, "You idiot!"
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 08:58 AM
:) Good point.
Did anyone else see the Baseball Tonight prior to the Cubs/Brewers game last night? It looked like Gammons wanted to kill Steve Phillips for his position that the Sox would be nuts to trade Manny. Gammons is obviously too close to the situation, he wasn't even understanding Phillips' argument and there was a really weird conversation where Gammons said that Phillips was blaming Francona for the whole ordeal. That was as legit pissed off as I've ever seen Gammons. I'm not a Phillips fan, but he was making a reasonable argument and Gammons wasn't having any of it.
It would so pain me to agree with Phillips or even to see his point of view, so I'm glad I missed it. But Gammons is obviously too personally invested, and I don't know if it's just because he's a fan or because he's close to the FO.
And chris - rotfl
tofferman
07-31-08, 09:29 AM
If the Manny trade doesn't occur, I imagine the Red Sox will simply decline their $20m option on him for 2009. The question then is whether Matt Holliday would like to play in front of the Green Monster next year?
matta
07-31-08, 09:32 AM
If the Manny trade doesn't occur, I imagine the Red Sox will simply decline their $20m option on him for 2009. The question then is whether Matt Holliday would like to play in front of the Green Monster next year?
I wonder how much Manny can actually get on the market. I know he thinks it's more than $20 million.
coli
07-31-08, 09:32 AM
:) Good point.
Did anyone else see the Baseball Tonight prior to the Cubs/Brewers game last night? It looked like Gammons wanted to kill Steve Phillips for his position that the Sox would be nuts to trade Manny. Gammons is obviously too close to the situation, he wasn't even understanding Phillips' argument and there was a really weird conversation where Gammons said that Phillips was blaming Francona for the whole ordeal. That was as legit pissed off as I've ever seen Gammons. I'm not a Phillips fan, but he was making a reasonable argument and Gammons wasn't having any of it.
I was in shock when Gammons went at him, as Phillips was making a legit point. Most great players are divas, Terrell Owens, Dennis Rodman, Michael Irvin, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, and you have to put up with their bullshit, cause they are so talented, and if you want a group of choir-boys, you can sit home in October.
Goat3001
07-31-08, 09:39 AM
^I think the market looks good for Manny despite everything that is going on. The two teams that would go for him hard and have the money are the Mets and Phillies. When you have division rivals going after the same player you're just asking for one of them to spend too much. I wouldn't be surprised if they give him his $100 million or close to it. Of course this is assuming that wherever Manny plays for the rest of the season he produces.
matta
07-31-08, 09:42 AM
^I think the market looks good for Manny despite everything that is going on. The two teams that would go for him hard and have the money are the Mets and Phillies. When you have division rivals going after the same player you're just asking for one of them to spend too much. I wouldn't be surprised if they give him his $100 million or close to it. Of course this is assuming that wherever Manny plays for the rest of the season he produces.
Don't forget that the Braves are in the market for a power hitting OF and have $50 million to spend.
edit: but I don't think they're that big on Manny.
SonOfAStu
07-31-08, 09:43 AM
This is just begging for a "Photoshop This" sports edition thread.
Don't forget that the Braves are in the market for a power hitting OF and have $50 million to spend.
edit: but I don't think they're that big on Manny.
If I had to guess I'd say the Mets would be Manny's first choice. He's been wanting to get back to his home city for a long time. There were rumblings from his camp about the Mets years ago.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 10:20 AM
No link yet, but Gammons says LHP Arthur Rhodes to Florida for Gaby Hernadez is done. Thank god that Yankee-enabler is out of the AL.
Goat3001
07-31-08, 10:24 AM
No link yet, but Gammons says LHP Arthur Rhodes to Florida for Gaby Hernadez is done. Thank god that Yankee-enabler is out of the AL.
Too bad. Rhodes has been pitching great for the Yankees for years. :lol:
Reported that the White Sox will be sending Nick Masset and Danny Richar to the Reds.
I imagine Williams is working on another deal today.
wabio
07-31-08, 11:09 AM
Funniest quote I've read all year:
"Former infielder Jerry Gil has been converted to a pitcher by the Reds.
Gil is reportedly throwing 93-94 mph at rookie-ball. When asked if Gil has moved to the mound because he has a good slider, manager Dusty Baker said: "He's pitching because he couldn't hit one." Ouch."
lordwow
07-31-08, 11:13 AM
Boston.com is reporting that the hangup in the deal is that they've agreed to pay for Manny's salary AND give them cash (so FL would profit by taking Manny), but PIT wants another Bosox prospect, the Bosox are not willing to give up any more if they're going to give up a prospect and pay Manny's salary+
coli
07-31-08, 11:16 AM
:)
Did anyone else see the Baseball Tonight prior to the Cubs/Brewers game last night? It looked like Gammons wanted to kill Steve Phillips for his position that the Sox would be nuts to trade Manny. Gammons is obviously too close to the situation, he wasn't even understanding Phillips' argument and there was a really weird conversation where Gammons said that Phillips was blaming Francona for the whole ordeal. That was as legit pissed off as I've ever seen Gammons. I'm not a Phillips fan, but he was making a reasonable argument and Gammons wasn't having any of it.
The funniest thing I did hear in this exchange was that Gammons was defending Francona as this genius manager, and Phillips even said he is one of the best managers in Baseball. I wonder if they felt this way towards Francona from 1997-2000 when he lost 90+ games for the Phils EVERY year? It's weird that he didn't have that 140 million dollar payroll with the Phills and couldn't seem to get to the Playoffs. My point is these guys need to stop with who's a great manager in Baseball, as that is so overrated, as Joe Torre isn't going to win close to 90 games with year with the Dodgers, cause he doesn't have a 200+ million dollar payroll either. Is he still a great manager?
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 11:22 AM
Boston.com is reporting that the hangup in the deal is that they've agreed to pay for Manny's salary AND give them cash (so FL would profit by taking Manny), but PIT wants another Bosox prospect, the Bosox are not willing to give up any more if they're going to give up a prospect and pay Manny's salary+
There are apparently some reports of Pit wanting Masterson because FL doesn't want to give up more than Hermida and a prospect. F that S.
SonOfAStu
07-31-08, 11:24 AM
Can't blame PIT though. They deserve to get something out of this to.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 11:27 AM
Can't blame PIT though. They deserve to get something out of this to.
No doubt about that. If Florida is getting Manny, his salary, extra cash, and an assurance from him that he declines arbitration so they can get two picks, I'd say they're the unreasonable party if all they think that should cost them is one good player and one prospect...and not one of their top prospects at that.
SonOfAStu
07-31-08, 11:29 AM
Right. Seems like FLA thinks they have Boston by the balls. This is going to be a mess by the end of business today.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 11:30 AM
Embattled superstar Manny Ramirez has approved a trade to the Marlins, SI.com has learned. While the Red Sox, Marlins and Pirates are still negotiating details of the mega-trade and nothing has been finalized by the teams, one major hurdle has been cleared by Ramirez accepting the deal ahead of time, according to people familiar with the negotiations. The Red Sox approached Ramirez in advance of their negotiations, and got his OK. Ramirez signed off on the paperwork, contingent upon the two $20-million team options for 2009 and '10 being dropped. The move will set the stage for Ramirez to become a free agent this winter, assuming a trade can be completed by the three teams.
Right. Seems like FLA thinks they have Boston by the balls. This is going to be a mess by the end of business today.
Gordon Edes of the Globe says that one possible scenario being bounced around is that Jack Wilson is added, along with the Sox adding Jed Lowrie. It makes the deal even worse for Boston, but Pittsburgh would be off the hook for Wilson's money.
BP, who reported the deal last night, says today that Pittsburgh has let everyone know they're more than happy to walk away if not completely satisfied, so good on them.
cardsfan111
07-31-08, 11:38 AM
Funniest quote I've read all year:
"Former infielder Jerry Gil has been converted to a pitcher by the Reds.
Gil is reportedly throwing 93-94 mph at rookie-ball. When asked if Gil has moved to the mound because he has a good slider, manager Dusty Baker said: "He's pitching because he couldn't hit one." Ouch."
:lol: :up:
starman9000
07-31-08, 11:48 AM
the blog on ESPN says the Manny deal is close to dead. And the Rays aren't likely to do anything either.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 11:52 AM
the blog on ESPN says the Manny deal is close to dead. And the Rays aren't likely to do anything either.
For some reason, that damn blog isn't showing up for me. Anyway, it'd be really hard to blame either the Sox or Pirates for walking away from that nonsense.
Meanwhile, Rosenthal reports that talks are "taking off." :lol: I love the sports media on deadline day.
starman9000
07-31-08, 11:53 AM
Posted by Peter Gammons:
A source close to the three-way negotiations involving Manny Ramirez says the deal is close to dead. Florida has reportedly asked Boston for a cash outlay beyond the $7M to cover Ramirez's contract, in addition to two prospects. That essentially would add up to the Red Sox trading Ramirez, $9M and two prospects for Jason Bay.
(maybe he's his own source)
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:10 PM
Ya, Manny ain't going nowhere
Goat3001
07-31-08, 12:11 PM
Wow Florida is being ridiculous. They're getting a great player for absolutely free and they're significantly boosting themselves to make a playoff run and instead they decide to push the Sox to the brink of walking away by demanding too much. There's still time, hopefully they back off a little.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 12:16 PM
Gammons is just being flatout nasty. Says Manny is blackmailing Boston. He says Ortiz tried to talk him into playing hard before (06?) and Manny didn't listen to him. So he doesn't believe Ortiz will have an impact this time either if he stays.
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:19 PM
At this point I'd rather we keep Manny for the rest of the year and aim for Holliday in the off-season.
Goat3001
07-31-08, 12:27 PM
So it looks like the Rays are standing pat and will try to win the division with what they have.
The Sox aren't making any moves and they've been struggling and now have to keep a pissed off Manny on their team.
The Yankees added the best lefty set up man in baseball, a left fielder who is having a career year and a veteran catcher who is past his prime but is a big step up from Jose Molina offensively and is just a true vet behind the plate.
Yep, this was a good trade deadline.
tofferman
07-31-08, 12:29 PM
Gammons is just being flatout nasty. Says Manny is blackmailing Boston. He says Ortiz tried to talk him into playing hard before (06?) and Manny didn't listen to him. So he doesn't believe Ortiz will have an impact this time either if he stays.
I consider Manny's actions to be the equivalent to blackmailing. No doubt.
VinVega
07-31-08, 12:33 PM
I wonder if Boras tells Manny to keep his yap shut if he doesn't get traded? The incentive is there though for Manny to be an even worse pain in the neck down the stretch in '08 to guarantee the Sox don't pick up his $20 million option. Imagine the Sox pick up the option just out of spite. :lol:
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:34 PM
Considering that Manny would likely go for more than $20M in FA, the Bosox may pick up his $20M option then try to trade him, so a team that was willing to spend $25m or whatever would really be interested.
VinVega
07-31-08, 12:35 PM
So it looks like the Rays are standing pat and will try to win the division with what they have.
The Sox aren't making any moves and they've been struggling and now have to keep a pissed off Manny on their team.
The Yankees added the best lefty set up man in baseball, a left fielder who is having a career year and a veteran catcher who is past his prime but is a big step up from Jose Molina offensively and is just a true vet behind the plate.
Yep, this was a good trade deadline.
So far the only team to make any real moves has been the Yankees. The Sox are in a no win situation here. Manny is disgruntled and has dollar signs in his eyes, but trading him means lower production from what he's capable of.
VinVega
07-31-08, 12:37 PM
Considering that Manny would likely go for more than $20M in FA, the Bosox may pick up his $20M option then try to trade him, so a team that was willing to spend $25m or whatever would really be interested.
You don't get the same interest in December like you do in the middle of a pennant race, so that would be a big gamble by the Sox. They'd probably be better off getting fresh blood in there by going after Holiday than dealing with the Manny soap opera any longer.
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:38 PM
I'll agree with that Vin, I am 100% for getting Holliday over picking up Manny's option.
BravesMG
07-31-08, 12:38 PM
Latest from Stark's blog:
"Yet another official with one of these three teams says the Manny-Bay deal is dead. In the aftermath, the teams involved seem unsure of what happened. The Pirates are blaming the Marlins. The Marlins are blaming the Pirates. And the Red Sox aren't too happy with either of them."
I wouldn't say it's done yet, but it's hard to say that with the info that's out there that the Marlins aren't at fault here.
VinVega
07-31-08, 12:40 PM
Latest from Stark's blog:
Yet another official with one of these three teams says the Manny-Bay deal is dead. In the aftermath, the teams involved seem unsure of what happened. The Pirates are blaming the Marlins. The Marlins are blaming the Pirates. And the Red Sox aren't too happy with either of them.
I wouldn't say it's done yet, but it's hard to say that with the info that's out there that the Marlins aren't at fault here.
The GM's from the smaller market teams got greedy and gunshy. The one team really trying to facilitate this was the Red Sox.
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:49 PM
I think that the original deal (last night) was fair, but I know not everyone in here agrees, but someone got greedy here, and if there's one team that makes me think "Greedy" anytime, it's the Marlins.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 12:53 PM
I think that the original deal (last night) was fair, but I know not everyone in here agrees, but someone got greedy here, and if there's one team that makes me think "Greedy" anytime, it's the Marlins.
And the only one of the three who could really afford to be greedy was Pittsburgh. Bay is relatively cheap, has another year left on his deal, and is a very good player. The only incentive to deal him this year is if someone blows them away.
lordwow
07-31-08, 12:54 PM
I think the ideal trade would have been for Florida to send another prospect to Pittsburg instead of another one from the Bosox, especially since they're getting Manny for free + $2m.
LurkerDan
07-31-08, 01:13 PM
Considering that Manny would likely go for more than $20M in FA, the Bosox may pick up his $20M option then try to trade him, so a team that was willing to spend $25m or whatever would really be interested.
remember, Manny can block any trade. So no team is going to be able to get him at a discount.
VinVega
07-31-08, 01:16 PM
From the ESPN trade blog:
Those on-again, off-again Jason Bay-to-Tampa Bay talks are back on, according to a source familiar with the discussions. The two sides have been so far apart that it appeared they'd given up on each other as of early Thursday afternoon. But the source said they've closed that gap somewhat and are still talking.
Tampa Bay has hinted its willing to structure a package around pitcher Jeff Niemann and shortstop prospect Reid Brignac, but the Pirates have been seeking one of their elite pitching prospects -- Wade Davis, David Price or Jeremy Hellickson.
Looks like the Pirates are pursuing option 2, the Rays.
The Rays should just deal Wade Davis or Hellickson. It's not like either one of those guys will crack a rotation of Kazmir, Shields, Garza, Price, ???. They'd be a 5th starter at best. Why hold onto them when you're stocked with pitching and NEED a RH bat? The Rays are being too stingy. You're in the race NOW and you never know what's going to happen next year. You have to go for it.
Unless there's another trade pending, I don't get this one.
Griffey's got a good bat and OBP, but we've got 3 younger, faster center fielders (Swisher, Anderson, Wise).
You're not going to sit Thome who's hitting .329 in July with one game left, so he can't be the regular DH.
The only thing that kind of makes sense is sitting Konerko who continues to struggle, putting Swisher at first more often (his natural position), and starting Griffey in CF. Still, he won't get to some balls that Anderson or Wise can get to, and while Quentin and Dye are great in LF and RF, they aren't fast enough to cover parts of center to help Griffey.
I guess we'll see what happens.
MrX
07-31-08, 01:28 PM
Unless there's another trade pending, I don't get this one.
They got him for basically nothing. 2B is the one position that the White Sox have a few prospects, and those guys are just holding a spot for a few years until Gordon Beckham is ready. Masset has yet to show he can be consistent.
They got him for basically nothing. 2B is the one position that the White Sox have a few prospects, and those guys are just holding a spot for a few years until Gordon Beckham is ready. Masset has yet to show he can be consistent.
I definitely don't mind giving up Masset and Richar, but I'm more concerned about who they displace.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 02:11 PM
Rays to Aquire Bay (??)
With the three-way deal between the Pirates, Red Sox, and Marlins falling through, an MLB.com source says that the Rays are going to acquire right-handed hitting outfielder Jason Bay for Minor League prospects including shortstop Reid Brignac and right-hander Jeff Niemann. The Rays have not confirmed the deal.
http://trades.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/rays_to_acquire_bay.html
They have 40 min to make it official.
This makes the Rays the front runners for the division I think. They really don't have a lot of holes now that they'll have another RH bat with power.
drmoze
07-31-08, 02:26 PM
So far the only team to make any real moves has been the Yankees.
You forgot about the Angels.
VinVega
07-31-08, 02:27 PM
You forgot about the Angels.
I meant within the AL East. Sorry we forget other divisions exist sometimes. :D
I think the Angels are going to the World Series personally.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:12 PM
Wow, apparently a big scramble at the end, all for naught so far. Rosenthal said minutes before the deadline that Bay was not only NOT a Ray, but the Manny talks had heated up again. Now he says neither the Manny deal nor Bay-to-TB deal happened. Or he said both seemed dead. I'm sure we'll hear officially from the clubs within minutes.
LurkerDan
07-31-08, 03:16 PM
they still could, this is just the non-waiver trade deadline. Though I doubt Bay would ever make it through waivers.
pedagogue
07-31-08, 03:20 PM
The Mets should have made a bigger push for Dunn.....no one seemed that interested, and I think he would have been a decent rental. Too bad.
B.A.
07-31-08, 03:25 PM
Has anyone seen the Brewers?
They were in St. Louis last week, but have since fallen off the radar.
tofferman
07-31-08, 03:27 PM
Bostondirtdogs is reporting that a trade has gone down for Manny details coming...
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:27 PM
Gordon Edes has apparently said that Manny may have been traded after all. Details are forthcoming.
starman9000
07-31-08, 03:27 PM
Well, Carl Pohlad is a bajillionare, so I am going to have to assume that the Twins again made the right move by not getting anybody. I'm guessing leaving Liriano in the minors while letting Livan pitch BP so we can save a million is probably the right move as well.
Any chance Griffey is a secret malcontent that will be a cancer to the WhiteSox?
(I suppose I should wait a little with my anger, supposedly there could be a trade with the O's involving some minor leaguers or something)
starman9000
07-31-08, 03:29 PM
Rosenthal is suggesting maybe the Dodgers got into the threeway with Pitt/Bos.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:31 PM
Rosenthal is suggesting maybe the Dodgers got into the threeway with Pitt/Bos.
Yeah, Heyman says Manny is going to LA, Nick Cafardo of the Globe says Bay may be going to Boston.
gilbertr76
07-31-08, 03:32 PM
Has anyone seen the Brewers?
They were in St. Louis last week, but have since fallen off the radar.
I've seen 'em...
http://www.bricksandivyradio.com/cubs_sweep.gif
cardsfan111
07-31-08, 03:32 PM
Has anyone seen the Brewers?
They were in St. Louis last week, but have since fallen off the radar.
I think the Cards gave the Brew Crew a false sense of confidence since they gave 'em 3 of the 4 games last week. The Cubs obviously with their most impressive series of the year...puts St. Louis back in front for the wild card for the moment.
Goat3001
07-31-08, 03:33 PM
Torre managing Manny and Nomar... in LA? Who would have guessed that 5 years ago? :lol:
Well my dream of Manny go as far away from the AL East seems to have happened.
lordwow
07-31-08, 03:33 PM
Why is it none of the sports channels are covering the trade deadline?
B.A.
07-31-08, 03:33 PM
Gagne just threw a ball behind Edmonds' back and got tossed.
At least have the balls to hit him. -ohbfrank-
starman9000
07-31-08, 03:35 PM
Gagne just threw a ball behind Edmonds' back and got tossed.
At least have the balls to hit him. -ohbfrank-
He has the balls, just not the talent.
B.A.
07-31-08, 03:37 PM
The Twins and Cards have a lot in common at the trade deadline.
lordwow
07-31-08, 03:37 PM
Manny to LA, 4 prospects to PIT, Bay to the Bosox. :banana:
VinVega
07-31-08, 03:37 PM
Torre managing Manny and Nomar... in LA? Who would have guessed that 5 years ago? :lol:
Well my dream of Manny go as far away from the AL East seems to have happened.
The best part is that the Rays got snubbed on Bay and now they'll be touting Rocco Baldelli as the next savior of the team. :lol:
starman9000
07-31-08, 03:38 PM
Complete rumor here, but supposedly it was on XM radio as a possible trade proposal:
Twins Trade: Blackburn, Bonser, Plouffe and Pino
O's Trade: Roberts, AAA 3B Scott Moore ans AAA SP Radhames Liz
I have not been able to find anything like that anywhere else, Twin's GM is giving a press conference at 4:30. (yes, I am allowing myself a little hope yet again)
VinVega
07-31-08, 03:38 PM
Does someone from Red Sox Nation want to give us the pulse of the Sawks fans in the post ManRam era?
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:39 PM
Wow...not much better than the other deal:
Updated 4:28 p.m.: Manny traded to Dodgers
Manny Ramirez has been traded to the Dodgers in a three-team blockbuster, pending the approval of the commissioner's office, according to a source with knowledge of the deal.
Pirates outfielder Jason Bay is headed to the Red Sox. The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Damien (he means Brandon) Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox.
The Red Sox will pay all of the approximately $7 million remaining on Ramirez's contract.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8397286
B.A.
07-31-08, 03:39 PM
Shocking - Boston making headlines at the trade deadline.
Who woulda thunk it?
wildcatlh
07-31-08, 03:40 PM
Gagne just threw a ball behind Edmonds' back and got tossed.
At least have the balls to hit him. -ohbfrank-
To be fair, this is Eric Gagne, which means he likely did try and hit him. Just doesn't have the control...
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:41 PM
Does someone from Red Sox Nation want to give us the pulse of the Sawks fans in the post ManRam era?
I can give you my single person perspective from 1500 miles away. I'm pretty pissed if the particulars are true.
VinVega
07-31-08, 03:41 PM
Forget about all the trade crap. A-Rod has filed for divorce. Discuss.
cardsfan111
07-31-08, 03:41 PM
So the Manny trade means Andruw Jones is now the 5th outfielder for LA? :lol:
VinVega
07-31-08, 03:42 PM
So the Manny trade means Andruw Jones is now the 5th outfielder for LA? :lol:
Andrew Jones would be a 5th outfielder for the St. Paul Saints.
tofferman
07-31-08, 03:42 PM
whewwwwww.....that was the sound of many on the Red Sox team upon learning that the cancer has been shipped elsewhere to infect and destroy team morale.
lordwow
07-31-08, 03:43 PM
I'm all for the trade. Bay is cheap as dirt for the next year and a half.
Jericho
07-31-08, 03:46 PM
Well, Carl Pohlad is a bajillionare, so I am going to have to assume that the Twins again made the right move by not getting anybody. I'm guessing leaving Liriano in the minors while letting Livan pitch BP so we can save a million is probably the right move as well.
Any chance Griffey is a secret malcontent that will be a cancer to the WhiteSox?
(I suppose I should wait a little with my anger, supposedly there could be a trade with the O's involving some minor leaguers or something)
The Twins aren't even saving money by not calling up Liriano. That deadline passed weeks ago.
B.A.
07-31-08, 03:49 PM
I'm all for the trade. Bay is cheap as dirt for the next year and a half.This fucking sucks.
Jericho
07-31-08, 03:49 PM
I'm all for the trade. Bay is cheap as dirt for the next year and a half.
Not only that, but given that Bay actually plays defense, his overall value to the Red sox this year is probably equal to Manny's.
Not a bad haul for the Pirates either, particularly Andy LaRoche. Now they can have the LaRoches!
And the Dodgers? Well they never seemed to like LaRoche, and even though LaRoche has value, since they weren't using it (or showed much intention of using it), I guess it's not a big loss. Of course the Dodgers add another OFer, and easily have the most expensive OF in baseball. Too bad, that doesn't include two of their best OFers in Kemp and Either.
Goat3001
07-31-08, 03:49 PM
whewwwwww.....that was the sound of many on the Red Sox team upon learning that the cancer has been shipped elsewhere to infect and destroy team morale.
Whewwww... is the same sound Yankee fans are making knowing they don't have to see the Yankee wrecking machine again this year.
starman9000
07-31-08, 03:51 PM
The Twins aren't even saving money by not calling up Liriano. That deadline passed weeks ago.
You are right, I forgot they were holding off so they could make room by trying to trade someone instead of sending them threw waivers.
Granted, I'm not near as excited about Liriano as a lot of people. I just needed something to complain about.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 03:56 PM
Not only that, but given that Bay actually plays defense, his overall value to the Red sox this year is probably equal to Manny's.
IF this is the entire deal, it cost Boston Manny, Moss, Hansen, and $7M. Now consider that Boston's pen has been struggling, so they lose one potential arm. KC was offering Mahay for Moss straight up reportedly, so that's two arms.
I think it sucks, frankly. Maybe if Gammons hadn't gone on his own personal smear campaign, the Sox wouldn't have been in the position to make a last minute "gotta do it" move and would have had a little more control. Further, had the Marlins not been assholes, the Sox would have wound up with Bay AND Mahay. Now they just get Bay.
matta
07-31-08, 03:56 PM
I wonder if the Dodgers would be willing to send Andruw + $12 million to the Braves for.... oh, a backup batboy.
Andruw is one player that might actually make it through waivers.
VinVega
07-31-08, 03:59 PM
I wonder if the Dodgers would be willing to send Andruw + $12 million to the Braves for.... oh, a backup batboy.
Andruw is one player that might actually make it through waivers.
Do you really want that kind of pain and suffering again? He couldn't even hold Kotsay's jock strap right now.
VinVega
07-31-08, 04:00 PM
IF this is the entire deal, it cost Boston Manny, Moss, Hansen, and $7M. Now consider that Boston's pen has been struggling, so they lose one potential arm. KC was offering Mahay for Moss straight up reportedly, so that's two arms.
I think it sucks, frankly. Maybe if Gammons hadn't gone on his own personal smear campaign, the Sox wouldn't have been in the position to make a last minute "gotta do it" move and would have had a little more control. Further, had the Marlins not been assholes, the Sox would have wound up with Bay AND Mahay. Now they just get Bay.
Don't pin it on Gammons. Boras orchestrated this thing just like he did with A-Rod at the WS last year. He's a grade one a$$hole.
matta
07-31-08, 04:01 PM
Do you really want that kind of pain and suffering again? He couldn't even hold Kotsay's jock strap right now.
If anyone is having a worse season than Andruw, it's Francoeur.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 04:02 PM
Don't pin it on Gammons. Boras orchestrated this thing just like he did with A-Rod at the WS last year. He's a grade one a$$hole.
I have no doubt Boras played a huge role in it. However, Gammons certainly played up the urgency quite a bit.
SpaceBoy
07-31-08, 04:11 PM
Glad to see Manny shut up finally. I don't think the deal is that great for the sox, but just glad to see management step up and shut that guy up. I could careless about Hansen that guy in my opinion is just another Farnsworth cloan which doesn't translate to consistent results.
I think I would rather have the Sox have a down year then keep that baby around or bend over backwards for him.
lordwow
07-31-08, 04:12 PM
Ya, the $7M is probably the part that has me scratching my head the most.
tofferman
07-31-08, 04:14 PM
I have no doubt Boras played a huge role in it. However, Gammons certainly played up the urgency quite a bit.
Gammons called it the way he saw it and while I consider him a Red Sox "Homer", it was pretty obvious Manny's shenanigans were affecting the team.
BravesMG
07-31-08, 04:14 PM
This is the first time that I've really not wanted to hear from Gammons on a story, he seems completely emotionally tied to this thing. I don't know if he pressured the Red Sox at all, but for those glued to ESPN, he certainly did his part to make the divide between Manny and the Sox almost impossibly huge.
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 04:15 PM
Anything about Aurilia to the Twins. Also this thirdbasmen they "traded" for is he power hitting and is he worth two pitchers?
tofferman
07-31-08, 04:17 PM
I still see the Red Sox going after Holliday in the offseason.
starman9000
07-31-08, 04:17 PM
Anything about Aurilia to the Twins. Also this thirdbasmen they "traded" for is he power hitting and is he worth two pitchers?
La Velle's latest blog entry states: Twins GM Bill Smith and his posse of experts spent part of Thursday huddled in a conference room, then gathered in Smith’s office as they tried to swing a deal before the 3 p.m. no-waiver trade deadline. But they came up empty.
Still a press conference at 4:30, so they are probably dumping livan or Boof. Francisco could start tomorrow.
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 04:21 PM
Liriano's agent can kiss my ass because there is no way that Liriano understands how terms of service works. I am not sure he is ready to come back up triple A talent isn't as strong as it's been in recent years. I won't be mad if they dump boof or Livan but I think keeping both have there advantages also.
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 04:24 PM
I'm happy with the Manny trade. No more distraction. Plus there's no way he was worth another $20M per season for the next too anyway -- not at 36-38 years old.
Plus Bay is a great hitter that has put up great numbers despite having nobody around him.
Too bad Manny turned into such a bitch lately, he was one of my favorite few players for years.
lordwow
07-31-08, 04:24 PM
I still see the Red Sox going after Holliday in the offseason.
And dump Bay and his dirt cheap contract?
fumanstan
07-31-08, 04:24 PM
I'm happy to get Manny as the Dodgers haven't had a major threat in the lineup since Gary Sheffield.
Of course, i'm also expecting LaRoche to turn into a superstar, as it always seems to happen when the Dodgers trade a young player away.
drmoze
07-31-08, 04:31 PM
Whewwww... is the same sound Yankee fans are making knowing they don't have to see the Yankee wrecking machine again this year.
True, but I think the Sox now have a better chance of sending the Yanks home fora long rest in September. I'm sorry to see Moss go, but losing the pain-in-the-ass Manny and having more salary to play with next year is an overall plus for the Sox IMO. The team needs a hustling motivator more than a clown who can hit at this point.
tofferman
07-31-08, 04:34 PM
And dump Bay and his dirt cheap contract?
I suspect Crisp won't be back next year...but you never know.
raven56706
07-31-08, 04:39 PM
not sure but isnt bay a step down from manny... i mean it isnt a big step down but its a decrease in power
Jericho
07-31-08, 04:39 PM
Liriano's agent can kiss my ass because there is no way that Liriano understands how terms of service works. I am not sure he is ready to come back up triple A talent isn't as strong as it's been in recent years. I won't be mad if they dump boof or Livan but I think keeping both have there advantages also.
Uh..you saw how dominant Liriano's been in AAA right? I mean utterly dominant. The Twins rank 10th in starter's ERA in the AL. Among contenders they are dead last. The Twins need pitching help. They have the most dominant pitcher in the minors toiling away for months. I think there's a legit complaint there.
Jericho
07-31-08, 04:40 PM
not sure but isnt bay a step down from manny... i mean it isnt a big step down but its a decrease in power
Two points. Manny isn't exactly Manny anymore. He's been in decline for two years. Jason Bay's numbers right now pretty much equal Manny's. Also, Bay's defense makes up for any defencies on offense. As a team, I have a hard time seeing how the Red Sox are worse off.
lordwow
07-31-08, 04:41 PM
* Manny Ramirez: .298 avg 66 runs 22 doubles 20 HR 68 RBI .398 on base % .529 slugging %
* Jason Bay: .282 avg 72 runs 23 doubles 22 HR 64 RBI .375 on base % .519 slugging %
Jericho
07-31-08, 04:42 PM
I suspect Crisp won't be back next year...but you never know.
But how does that get them Holliday? Someone has to play CF (Ellsbury). Drew and Bay on the corners. Ortiz at DH. Crisp is irrelevant.
Jericho
07-31-08, 04:45 PM
IF this is the entire deal, it cost Boston Manny, Moss, Hansen, and $7M. Now consider that Boston's pen has been struggling, so they lose one potential arm. KC was offering Mahay for Moss straight up reportedly, so that's two arms.
I think it sucks, frankly. Maybe if Gammons hadn't gone on his own personal smear campaign, the Sox wouldn't have been in the position to make a last minute "gotta do it" move and would have had a little more control. Further, had the Marlins not been assholes, the Sox would have wound up with Bay AND Mahay. Now they just get Bay.
But Hansen and Moss aren't part of the Red Sox now, or really the future. A bullpen arm and reserve hitter? The Red Sox can find those in spades. And the money, they got plenty of that too. Nothing that they miss, and nothing with a ton of value league wide.
Even if the Mahay rumor was true, the Sox are better off now and in 2009 with this deal.
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 04:51 PM
Uh..you saw how dominant Liriano's been in AAA right? I mean utterly dominant. The Twins rank 10th in starter's ERA in the AL. Among contenders they are dead last. The Twins need pitching help. They have the most dominant pitcher in the minors toiling away for months. I think there's a legit complaint there.
Dominant in triple A doesn't mean you are gonna rock Major league hitters, and even the coaching staff has said that he is not all the way ready with some of his pitches he is actually better then earlier in the season. Also the twins are 8th in the league in overall era, and I don't have the stats in front of me but if you narrow it down to like the last 30 games it is much lower there pitchers had a rough start
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 04:51 PM
But Hansen and Moss aren't part of the Red Sox now, or really the future. A bullpen arm and reserve hitter? The Red Sox can find those in spades. And the money, they got plenty of that too. Nothing that they miss, and nothing with a ton of value league wide.
Even if the Mahay rumor was true, the Sox are better off now and in 2009 with this deal.
The Sox are better off in '09, there is no doubt about that. I don't buy that they are even close to better off in '08. Status quo at best. I would imagine if one factors in "addition by subtraction" Nomar-style, okay, maybe a touch better.
The best news is not having to compete in the '08 offseason corner OF free agent market. My main point of frustration is that they were put over a barrel and lost out on other pieces.
I'm very happy they have Bay, no doubt. I'm not saying it's a disaster or anything, but given the price, for '08 I'm just not thrilled at the deal as a whole.
tofferman
07-31-08, 04:52 PM
But how does that get them Holliday? Someone has to play CF (Ellsbury). Drew and Bay on the corners. Ortiz at DH. Crisp is irrelevant.
True. All I'm saying is that I do expect Theo to pursue Holliday if he's available. If Bay under performs, he may end up a short term fill-in for this year only. Also, I can't imagine Crisp and Ellsbury platooning in center field next year.
huh?
07-31-08, 04:57 PM
Wow, just heard about the Manny deal. Considering it took him 6 seconds to run to first base last night, it was time for him to go.
However, I'd like thank Manny for 2 World Series, and for being entertaining as all hell for the past 8 years. Frustrating sometimes, but between the lines he was quite a player.
My personal opinion is that Boras is to blame here somehow. I think he wanted Manny to get traded so that Manny became a FA at the end of the year rather than have his options picked up (or the potential for his options to be picked up).
I hope we just got better, but I don't know. Time will tell.
dgmayor
07-31-08, 05:04 PM
Wow, just heard about the Manny deal. Considering it took him 6 seconds to run to first base last night, it was time for him to go.
However, I'd like thank Manny for 2 World Series, and for being entertaining as all hell for the past 8 years. Frustrating sometimes, but between the lines he was quite a player.
My personal opinion is that Boras is to blame here somehow. I think he wanted Manny to get traded so that Manny became a FA at the end of the year rather than have his options picked up (or the potential for his options to be picked up).
I hope we just got better, but I don't know. Time will tell.
That's pretty much how I feel as well. He's a great player for the most part, but his antics make it really hard to like him. Just when he starts acting normal, he turns it around and starts shoving older guys and mouthing off to anyone that would listen.
I feel for Bay though. Hopefully people won't expect him to be the next Manny, because that will just be rough for him. It's really not fair to ask if the Sox got a step down from Manny, because well, just about every hitter in the game (not all) is a step down from Manny.
huh?
07-31-08, 05:15 PM
They got 60 cents to the dollar in this trade. I didn't want to see a deal get made, but looking at what they gave up to get rid of him, I truly believe that the situation got to be so bad that it would have been worse to keep him.
Setzer
07-31-08, 05:35 PM
I'm happy Manny is no longer in the AL but the Dodgers??? They've already have trouble getting 4 OF's playing time and now they'll have 5. Not a good move. Yes, you gain offense but you lose out on defense.
LurkerDan
07-31-08, 05:36 PM
Two points. Manny isn't exactly Manny anymore. He's been in decline for two years. Jason Bay's numbers right now pretty much equal Manny's. Also, Bay's defense makes up for any defencies on offense. As a team, I have a hard time seeing how the Red Sox are worse off.
Manny's defense at home deserves more credit than it gets. Sure, he doesn't hustle, but he knows how to play the Green Monster.
That having been said, I can't see how this deal is too big a problem for Sox Fans.
What is the over/under on Manny saying he wants to come back to Boston?
Deftones
07-31-08, 05:40 PM
Good deal for the Sox and Dodgers. If anything, it gives the Dodgers one more bat in the attempt to overtake the Dbacks. I think Bay is probably a slight downgrade on offense, if that, but an upgrade on defense. I didn't hear the specifics, but is Bay a FA after this season or does he have time left on his contract?
Imagine the numbers Bay can now put up with protection in a good lineup. It's scary to think.
fumanstan
07-31-08, 05:41 PM
I'm happy Manny is no longer in the AL but the Dodgers??? They've already have trouble getting 4 OF's playing time and now they'll have 5. Not a good move. Yes, you gain offense but you lose out on defense.
Considering the Dodgers current offense, i'll definitely take Manny over playing Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones.
BTW, Fuck Andruw Jones.
Aphex Twin
07-31-08, 05:44 PM
We've got Nomar, Lowe, and Manny. The World Series is secured.
Jobronie
07-31-08, 05:47 PM
The best news is not having to compete in the '08 offseason corner OF free agent market. My main point of frustration is that they were put over a barrel and lost out on other pieces.Not to nitpick, but RHH corner OF.
Can't leave that part out.
Personally, I wouldn't have been disappointed with Kemp, if BOS had gone to the backup plan.....
Jobronie
07-31-08, 05:52 PM
We've got Nomar, Lowe, and Manny. The World Series is secured.It'll be a proud moment when they're congratulated by President Kerry in the Rose Garden.
LurkerDan
07-31-08, 05:57 PM
Good deal for the Sox and Dodgers. If anything, it gives the Dodgers one more bat in the attempt to overtake the Dbacks. I think Bay is probably a slight downgrade on offense, if that, but an upgrade on defense. I didn't hear the specifics, but is Bay a FA after this season or does he have time left on his contract?
Imagine the numbers Bay can now put up with protection in a good lineup. It's scary to think.
I think Bay has one more year. And yes, those people who think the Sox screwed themselves, Bay's numbers were in a shitty lineup in the national league. He may kill it in Fenway.
matta
07-31-08, 06:19 PM
It'll be a proud moment when they're congratulated by President Kerry in the Rose Garden.
:lol:
Setzer
07-31-08, 06:22 PM
Considering the Dodgers current offense, i'll definitely take Manny over playing Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones.
BTW, Fuck Andruw Jones.
Yeah just go ahead and bench the guy while he collects his 15 million. :lol:
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 06:26 PM
Manny "knowing how to play the monster" in LF is so ridiculously overrated it's retarded. He should know how to play it -- he stood in front of it for 70+ games a season for 8 years.
Besides, it's not that damn hard to play a high short fence anyway. Play in, if the ball's hit over your head it will hit the wall, wait for it to come down, barehand the one-hop, and fire to 2.
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 06:26 PM
Darren Driefort approves of Andruw Jones.
fumanstan
07-31-08, 06:27 PM
Yeah just go ahead and bench the guy while he collects his 15 million. :lol:
Yeah just go ahead and keep playing the guy hitting .160 :lol:
matta
07-31-08, 06:28 PM
Yeah just go ahead and bench the guy while he collects his 15 million. :lol:
If Andruw is put on waivers, and clears waivers, and is released, are the Dodgers responsible for both years of the contract, or just this year, since they're past the deadline to release with 45 days of pay?
If the Dodgers release him, and anoter team picks him up (not off the waiver wire, but after he is full released), does the new team have to honor the old contract?
Setzer
07-31-08, 06:29 PM
Yeah just go ahead and keep playing the guy hitting .160 :lol:
Hey, the Dodgers were dumb asses for signing him.
PJsig08
07-31-08, 06:31 PM
Manny is such an idiot for wanting out of Boston.
This just makes it even easier for the Angels to reach the World Series now.
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 06:31 PM
If the Dodgers release him, and anoter team picks him up (not off the waiver wire, but after he is full released), does the new team have to honor the old contract?
Is there a AA team that can afford a $15M/yr player?
fumanstan
07-31-08, 06:31 PM
Hey, the Dodgers were dumb asses for signing him.
Yeah, and he sucked so bad they went and got Manny. What's the problem again? You're the one who apparently thinks Andruw should keep playing because he makes a lot of money :lol:
matta
07-31-08, 06:32 PM
Is there a AA team that can afford a $15M/yr player?
The Atlanta Braves.
Setzer
07-31-08, 06:36 PM
Yeah, and he sucked so bad they went and got Manny. What's the problem again? You're the one who apparently thinks Andruw should keep playing because he makes a lot of money :lol:
I never said that. I'm just laughing at the fact that they're going to have to bench a guy they're paying 15mil to. Never thought they should continue to play him -- it was an idiotic move to sign him for that much to begin with and now they're stuck with him.
So now the Dodgers bench Andruw and put in Manny and they still have to find playing time for Kemp, Eithier and Pierre. They should have traded one of those guys for a starting pitcher.
Setzer
07-31-08, 06:37 PM
Oh and the Dodgers still won't win the NL West with this move....or make the play-offs for that matter.
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 06:41 PM
You guys do all realize that this isn't Manny circa 1999, right?
And that Bay's career numbers project to .280/31/100 per 162 games in a predominantly pitcher-friendly stadium with whatever shitball .250 hitters were around him in the lineup?
And that he's now going to a heavily hitter-friendly American league stadium with much better guys setting the table for him and protecting him in the lineup, right?
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 06:42 PM
If you see an outfield lineup other than Manny, Kemp, and Ethier, you will know right then just how not serious the dodgers are about making the playoffs.
matta
07-31-08, 06:47 PM
I seriously want to know if a released player still has to have his contract honored.
If the Dodgers release him, they're still on the hook for his guaranteed salary. If he then signs with someone else, does he negotiate a new contract in addition to the old, or does the releasing team still retain control of the player allowing them to pass the contract to the new team.
I emailed it to the Braves' announcers to see if they'll answer it on the air.
fumanstan
07-31-08, 06:47 PM
I never said that. I'm just laughing at the fact that they're going to have to bench a guy they're paying 15mil to. Never thought they should continue to play him -- it was an idiotic move to sign him for that much to begin with and now they're stuck with him.
So now the Dodgers bench Andruw and put in Manny and they still have to find playing time for Kemp, Eithier and Pierre. They should have traded one of those guys for a starting pitcher.
Like I said in another thread, it wasn't a bad risk for Andruw, especially for only 2 years. It's not like they're stuck with him for 5 years, and there was a chance he'd bounce back to the .260, 35 hr numbers he had the rest of his career. At least he's played in games versus Jason Schmidt :lol: :(
I doubt there were any takers for Pierre, and I like both Ethier and Kemp. It might have been nice to trade Ethier for a pitcher, and i'm sure they were trying. But playing time wise, I'd imagine Pierre is the one that will lose out. Not a big deal as far as I'm concerned.
But really Manny, even a declining Manny, is still better offensively then any one else on the Dodgers and a much needed bat. It sure as hell is better then standing pat while down only a single game from the DBacks. I'm not sure how anyone would think this is a BAD move for the Dodgers, unless they think highly of LaRoche.
matta
07-31-08, 06:51 PM
Mike Hampton with an RBI double
Deftones
07-31-08, 06:56 PM
I seriously want to know if a released player still has to have his contract honored.
If the Dodgers release him, they're still on the hook for his guaranteed salary. If he then signs with someone else, does he negotiate a new contract in addition to the old, or does the releasing team still retain control of the player allowing them to pass the contract to the new team.
I emailed it to the Braves' announcers to see if they'll answer it on the air.
If Andruw were waived today, and cleared waivers, the Dodgers would pay every penny of his salary this year and next. If another team signs him, after he's waived, they'd pay the league minimum (IIRC) and the Dodgers would still have to cough up the rest of the money for his salary. Essentially, the same thing happend to Russ Ortiz here in AZ. They signed him for 4 years, and he lasted 1.5. When another team picked him up after waivers were cleared (I think Baltimore was the 1st team to take a flyer on him), they only paid the league minimum of his salary. Dbacks picked up the rest. Thank god that asshole's contract comes off the books after this season.
Deftones
07-31-08, 06:57 PM
I'm not sure how anyone would think this is a BAD move for the Dodgers, unless they think highly of LaRoche.
So what happens when Nomar tears his quad for the tenth time? Who will play 3rd? ;)
VinVega
07-31-08, 07:00 PM
I'm not sure how anyone would think this is a BAD move for the Dodgers, unless they think highly of LaRoche.
Time will tell with LaRoche. He hasn't even had 200 MLB AB's yet. He's raked in AAA. Maybe he's a quadruple A player, but I'd like to see him have a full season in MLB to judge.
That being said, it's a good move for the Dodgers since it adds a lot of pop to the lineup.
cardsfan111
07-31-08, 07:00 PM
Mike Hampton with an RBI double
After he escaped the bases loaded jam in the 1st, I thought to myself that we needed to have knocked him out so we'd take another bat out of the Braves lineup.
Setzer
07-31-08, 07:00 PM
Hunter with the 3-run bomb! Angels up 3-0.
VinVega
07-31-08, 07:02 PM
Andy Pettitte is stinking up the joint right now. The Angels continue to dominate. Impressive.
VinVega
07-31-08, 07:03 PM
Andy Pettitte is stinking up the joint right now. The Angels continue to dominate. Impressive.
How about back to back 3 run HR's. 6-0 Angels.
El Scorcho
07-31-08, 07:04 PM
Waivers
Any player under contract may be placed on waivers at any time. If a player is waived, any team may claim him. If more than one team claims the player from waivers, the team with the weakest record in the player's league gets preference. If no team in the player's league claims him, the claiming team with the weakest record in the other league gets preference. In the first month of the season, preference is determined using the previous year's standings.
If a team claims a player off waivers and has the viable claim as described above, his current team (the "waiving team") may choose one of the following options:
* arrange a trade with the claiming team for that player within two business days of the claim; or
* rescind the request and keep the player on its major league roster, effectively canceling the waiver; or
* do nothing and allow the claiming team to (1) assume the player's existing contract, (2) pay the waiving team a waiver fee, and (3) place the player on its active major league roster.
If a player is claimed and the waiving team exercises its rescission option, the waiving team may not use the option again for that player in that season. If no team claims a player from waivers in three business days, the player has cleared waivers and may be assigned to a minor league team, traded, or released outright.
The waiver "wire" is a secret within the personnel of the Major League Baseball clubs; no announcement of a waiver is made until a transaction actually occurs. Many players are often quietly waived during the August "waiver-required" trading period to gauge trade interest in a particular player. Usually, when the player is claimed, the waiving team will rescind the waiver to avoid losing the player unless a trade can be worked out with the claiming team.
If a player has 5 years of major-league service, he may not be assigned to a minor-league team without his consent, regardless of whether he has already been outrighted once, even if he clears waivers. If the player withholds consent, the team must either release him or keep him on the major league roster. In either case, the player must continue to be paid under the terms of his contract. If he is released and signs with a new team, his previous team must pay the difference in salary between the two contracts if the previous contract called for a greater salary.
fumanstan
07-31-08, 07:07 PM
So what happens when Nomar tears his quad for the tenth time? Who will play 3rd? ;)
Andruw Jones! Wait. Fuck. :(
But Blake DeWitt was ok, at least a bit better then LaRoche, in his limited time this year as the starting 3B, so I guess they'd bring him back up.
DaveWadding
07-31-08, 07:09 PM
Essentially, the same thing happend to Russ Ortiz here in AZ. They signed him for 4 years, and he lasted 1.5. When another team picked him up after waivers were cleared (I think Baltimore was the 1st team to take a flyer on him), they only paid the league minimum of his salary. Dbacks picked up the rest. Thank god that asshole's contract comes off the books after this season.
God...they're STILL paying that guy?
matta
07-31-08, 07:13 PM
Nice. Thanks. I hope they waive him now.
B.A.
07-31-08, 07:27 PM
If Andruw were waived today, and cleared waivers, the Dodgers would pay every penny of his salary this year and next. If another team signs him, after he's waived, they'd pay the league minimum (IIRC) and the Dodgers would still have to cough up the rest of the money for his salary. Essentially, the same thing happend to Russ Ortiz here in AZ. They signed him for 4 years, and he lasted 1.5. When another team picked him up after waivers were cleared (I think Baltimore was the 1st team to take a flyer on him), they only paid the league minimum of his salary. Dbacks picked up the rest. Thank god that asshole's contract comes off the books after this season.Exactly - the Cardinals are paying Edmonds more this year than the Cubs are, because they picked up part of the tab so the Pads would take him.
Joel Pineiro is a worthless piece of shit.
ToddSm66
07-31-08, 07:34 PM
I'm not sure how anyone would think this is a BAD move for the Dodgers, unless they think highly of LaRoche.
I wouldn't neccessarily say it was a BAD move for the Dodgers, just an odd move. For a team that's struggling to keep over .500 and chasing to win the worst division in baseball, it's odd to see them go out and give away two of their top prospects for a 2 month rental player in the one position they didn't need any help at. Even if this gets them over the hump and helps them win the West, that's really as far as they can hope to get. If LaRoche finally lives up to his potential, this will look really bad down the road.
Boston isn't doing too bad either. Was expensive for them to get rid of a good player, but Bay is solid. Bay doesnt get much attention playing in Pittsburgh, but his numbers aren't much of a dropoff from Manny this year - and those numbers should go up playing in Fenway in that Boston lineup. Plus, Boston saves what - $15 million with Bay next year over what it would have cost them to pick up Manny's option? That's where the Sox really win out here...they still have a top quality left fielder, and now they have a ton of money to spend in free agency this winter with Manny and Schilling off the books next year.
Pittsburgh came out looking really good here too. This is exactly the kind of trade they needed to make, bringing in 4 quality players in exchange for one....with three of them joining the major league roster immediately. New GM Huntington had a plan to bring in some youth and help rebuild the farm system that Dave Littlefield destroyed, and so far, I'm impressed. Moss, LaRoche and Hansen all have a lot of upside, and should help the Pirates for several years...and with the Nady/Marte deal and this year's draft thrown in, there is actually a little bit of talent floating around in the Pirates system for a refreshing change. Finally a little bit of hope down the road for the Pirates. Certainly miles away from the Aramis Ramirez for Bobby Hill salary dump with Dave Littlefield.
tofferman
07-31-08, 08:02 PM
For those interested, there is a good article written by Dan Shaughnessy over at Boston.com, that sums up why this deal had to take place. After reading it, I completely agree that this trade had to take place despite the trade offs.
dgmayor
07-31-08, 08:32 PM
For those interested, there is a good article written by Dan Shaughnessy over at Boston.com, that sums up why this deal had to take place. After reading it, I completely agree that this trade had to take place despite the trade offs.
"Good article" and "Dan Shaughnessy" are rarely if ever used in the same sentence ;).
tofferman
07-31-08, 08:43 PM
"Good article" and "Dan Shaughnessy" are rarely if ever used in the same sentence ;).
True...but...he does sum up the state of affairs with Man Ram nicely. There are those who will never understand how a team could "get rid" of a player the caliber of Manny. In reality, this Red Sox went way beyond the line in tolerating "Manny just being Manny."
Schilling posted today in his blog as well and while I know many have issues with him, his thoughts in that blog...I bet...were similar to what others in the dugout were feeling. Theo did what needed to be done. Good Luck to the Dodgers and especially Joe Torre.
Jacoby Ellsbury
07-31-08, 08:43 PM
Anyone else find it ridiculous that Boras is feeding Manny lies and Manny is eating them up. $100M for 4 years is no way going to happen. Boras wouldnt get anything if Manny's options were picked up. At most some team will overspend and give Manny 4/$60M He's worth closer to $12M per year seeing that he is a 2 tool player. He's a DH basically. I just dont see him making more money the next 4 years than if he was paid the two $20M options plus a new 3 year contract starting for 2011. Ive wanted Manny gone for about 5 years now. As soon as he started jogging to first. But I think they would have been better off keeping him for these next 2 months, rather than trading 2 prospects(although hansen is never going to pan out) and the 2 draft picks they lose from Manny opting for free agency. Obviously the Sox got the worst of this deal because they were forced to trade Manny.
Mad Dawg
07-31-08, 08:49 PM
"Good article" and "Dan Shaughnessy" are rarely if ever used in the same sentence ;).
I was waiting for someone else to say it. :lol: A superstar's departure from Boston simply wouldn't be complete without Shaughnessy writing a heartfelt goodbye laced with his standard venom. His standard MO is to do everything he can to villify star players during their tenure. Then once they finally go, write a column remembering all the wonderful times...and oh, by the way, the one-sided Cliffs Notes version of all the rotten stuff he'd written about them prior. The guy is a truly reprehensible journalist, and a black mark on the Boston media.
That said, he's right in that he had to go. One can tell from the article that we aren't getting the entire story, but the bottom line is what it is. It was a good run, and it sadly soured.
I still hate the overpay more than anything else, but what's done is done. And I'm looking forward to tomorrow.
B.A.
07-31-08, 09:18 PM
Nice to see the Cardinals shit the bed when they have a chance to take the lead in the Wild Card race.
Hopefully, Morneau can come through one more time in the dome.
starman9000
07-31-08, 09:21 PM
Hopefully, Morneau can come through one more time in the dome.
He has been rolling, and maybe Gardy just gave him a little spark :)
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 09:29 PM
After that Kick from Gardy I have a little spark :)
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 09:37 PM
This Twins/Sox game is great these teams want to win and they want to do it against each other. It may not be Red sox/Yankees but this rivalry is great. What I also like is that Guillen respects the Twins and uses them as examples for his players.
Quake1028
07-31-08, 09:44 PM
Imagine the numbers Bay can now put up with protection in a good lineup. It's scary to think.
By the same token, as someone pointed out earlier, Jason Bay has never had a crunch time at bat in his entire professional career, never played on a team that even sniffed the postseason, and never played under anywhere near the kind of pressure he will in Boston. That's got to count for a lot, who knows if the guy has what it takes to play on one of the toughest stages in sports?
starman9000
07-31-08, 10:00 PM
Nice comeback by the Twins, now the pen looks like they want to give it right back.
B.A.
07-31-08, 10:05 PM
This Twins/Sox game is great these teams want to win and they want to do it against each other. It may not be Red sox/Yankees but this rivalry is great. What I also like is that Guillen respects the Twins and uses them as examples for his players.
This season is going to go down to the wire.
Spicollidriver1
07-31-08, 10:08 PM
This is exciting now doubt and really even though this was supposed to be a rebuilding year for the Twins I wanted them to as least compete they certainly are right now.
Sorraffy
07-31-08, 10:10 PM
The Atlanta Braves.
I really don't think they'll want him back. They let him walk, they're seeing the excellent results (on their behalf) of letting that happen and I believe they are content on playing without him
matta
07-31-08, 10:14 PM
For league minimum, I'd take him back in a heart beat.
Sorraffy
07-31-08, 10:25 PM
I probably would too.
But he'd be a bench guy, a backup to the starting outfield. Since his only redeeming qualities are still just his defense
FantasticVSDoom
07-31-08, 10:40 PM
Wow, just heard about the Manny deal. Considering it took him 6 seconds to run to first base last night, it was time for him to go.
However, I'd like thank Manny for 2 World Series, and for being entertaining as all hell for the past 8 years. Frustrating sometimes, but between the lines he was quite a player.
My personal opinion is that Boras is to blame here somehow. I think he wanted Manny to get traded so that Manny became a FA at the end of the year rather than have his options picked up (or the potential for his options to be picked up).
I hope we just got better, but I don't know. Time will tell.
My sentiments exactly... I hope Manny gets everything he is looking for, I still love the guy for what he did these past 8 years, especially 2004 & 2007.
kenbuzz
07-31-08, 10:49 PM
So, if Alex Rodriguez is known as "A-ROD", and Ivan Rodriguez goes by "I-ROD", why isn't Manny Ramirez referred to as "MAN RAM"? I mean, other than because it's kinda gay. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Quake1028
07-31-08, 10:55 PM
Manny is called ManRam, has been for years.
fumanstan
07-31-08, 10:55 PM
So, if Alex Rodriguez is known as "A-ROD", and Ivan Rodriguez goes by "I-ROD", why isn't Manny Ramirez referred to as "MAN RAM"? I mean, other than because it's kinda gay. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Because by that naming scheme, he would just be M-RAM. -ohbfrank-
Deftones
07-31-08, 11:39 PM
Suck it, Dodgers! :banana:
A fucking ridiculous pitched game by both Webb and Lowe. The first 6 innings were over in 45 minutes! :eek:
chrisih8u
07-31-08, 11:57 PM
I was waiting for someone else to say it. :lol: A superstar's departure from Boston simply wouldn't be complete without Shaughnessy writing a heartfelt goodbye laced with his standard venom. His standard MO is to do everything he can to villify star players during their tenure. Then once they finally go, write a column remembering all the wonderful times...and oh, by the way, the one-sided Cliffs Notes version of all the rotten stuff he'd written about them prior. The guy is a truly reprehensible journalist, and a black mark on the Boston media.
That said, he's right in that he had to go. One can tell from the article that we aren't getting the entire story, but the bottom line is what it is. It was a good run, and it sadly soured.
I still hate the overpay more than anything else, but what's done is done. And I'm looking forward to tomorrow.
Exactly right, of course. Whenever I wondered if I was wrong in wanting Manny to stay I just reminded myself that Shaugnnessy, Buckley, and the idiots at WEEI all disagreed with me. :) But the situation got beyond repair. Getting Bay was the best we could hope for.
And I hope David Ortiz is paying attention. He shouldn't be surprised when the same thing happens to him.
nickdawgy
08-01-08, 12:31 AM
So, if Alex Rodriguez is known as "A-ROD", and Ivan Rodriguez goes by "I-ROD", why isn't Manny Ramirez referred to as "MAN RAM"? I mean, other than because it's kinda gay. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
I-Rod? I only know of Pudge.
starman9000
08-01-08, 06:12 AM
I-Rod? I only know of Pudge.
He has been both.
I am just hoping the Yanks make a big push for K-Rod in the offseason so there can be tons of ridiculous sports headlines throughout the year.
dgmayor
08-01-08, 06:32 AM
Exactly right, of course. Whenever I wondered if I was wrong in wanting Manny to stay I just reminded myself that Shaugnnessy, Buckley, and the idiots at WEEI all disagreed with me. :) But the situation got beyond repair. Getting Bay was the best we could hope for.
And I hope David Ortiz is paying attention. He shouldn't be surprised when the same thing happens to him.
Ortiz just doesn't at all strike me as the type to start crap in his contract year. He is the antithesis of Manny Ramirez in many ways. He talks to the Press and fans, he doesn't complain, he doesn't whine, he does lots of endorsements and does what he can to be the happy positive face of MLB. He barely had a career when Boston picked him up, and he seems genuinely honored to be in the position he is. Very similar imo to Jeter in his attitude. (You know, the only Yankee player that us sox fans will admit that we dont' hate ;)).
lordwow
08-01-08, 07:06 AM
If you ever watch the World series DVDs, there's a lot of stuff in it that makes Ortiz look really humbled to be a part of it all, especially as you said, he was given a big chance by the Bosox.
Qui Gon Jim
08-01-08, 07:31 AM
Don't pin it on Gammons. Boras orchestrated this thing just like he did with A-Rod at the WS last year. He's a grade one a$$hole.
Exactly. It will be interesting to see where Manny ends up next year. He will likely go on a tear now, a tear he could have gone on for Boston. I really think, especially after that last game with the Angels, that they had to get Manny out of Boston. Bay is an adequate replacement, and the Sox now have some serious (though not as serious as NYY) cash coming off their payroll for the upcoming off season. This winter should be very interesting.
Qui Gon Jim
08-01-08, 07:33 AM
This is the first time that I've really not wanted to hear from Gammons on a story, he seems completely emotionally tied to this thing. I don't know if he pressured the Red Sox at all, but for those glued to ESPN, he certainly did his part to make the divide between Manny and the Sox almost impossibly huge.
Manny said that the Red Sox don't deserve a player like him. He's crazy, and no spin by Gammons could make something like that worse.
Manny did this to Manny, not Gammons.
chrisih8u
08-01-08, 07:59 AM
Yeah, Manny did this to Manny and Pedro did it to Pedro and Nomar did it to Nomar, etc.
This front office is great in many ways. But it's despicable the way they use the press to tear someone down. And the media is all to eager to do it. Sports Journalists are right up there with telemarketers, spammers, and used car salesmen.
Gammons should be ashamed of himself. To say that Manny is a disgrace to baseball and that he doesnt care about winning is pathetic. And he stopped just short of calling Manny a murderer because of Tito's declining health.
Gammons, Lobel, Shaughnessy, and Gerry Callahan. What a bunch. :rolleyes:
Goat3001
08-01-08, 08:09 AM
^ I agree. I don't think the Sox FO is perfect and there have been times they treated some veterens with little respect but Manny, Pedro and Nomar (to a lesser degree) didn't do much to help themselves.
But I really agree with your second point. I have never seen anything like the Boston hype machine. As soon as Manny says he doesn't like the Boston front office the media goes ballistic and tries to turn all the fans against him. I'm not sure if its the front office pulling the strings or just the general Sox beat reporters insisting that the Sox are always right but its rare for me to read an article saying that the Sox front office has done something wrong. Looking back, I think the A-Rod situation is a great example. The Sox FO and Rangers FO fucked that up terribley. Then the hype machine turns around and somehow the blame is on A-Rod.
chrisih8u
08-01-08, 08:15 AM
Ortiz just doesn't at all strike me as the type to start crap in his contract year. He is the antithesis of Manny Ramirez in many ways. He talks to the Press and fans, he doesn't complain, he doesn't whine, he does lots of endorsements and does what he can to be the happy positive face of MLB. He barely had a career when Boston picked him up, and he seems genuinely honored to be in the position he is. Very similar imo to Jeter in his attitude. (You know, the only Yankee player that us sox fans will admit that we dont' hate ;)).
Sure, right now Ortiz is the happy go lucky 40 HR hitter with a big smile. But it's all going to come crashing down and I'll tell you how it's going to happen.
Bookmark this post, please.
His numbers will start to decline. Not off the chart mind you, but people will be frustrated that he is still in the number 3 or 4 spot even though his numbers won't warrant it. He'll be in his contract year and realize that he isn't getting any younger and the FO hasn't even whispered anything about a contract extension. WEEI will be flooded with hosts and shitty callers that complain about Ortiz's struggles and that he's frequently hurt. Then he will hit right into the shift and jog up the first base line. And then it begins. The fans will boo. This will piss him off royally. And he will say something about his contract. It might be innocent, but the media assholes will twist it and the boos will get worse. Then at the end of the season, the Red Sox will low ball him. Then stories will come out from anonymous sources saying shit about him. He will be pissed, sign somewhere else and talk shit about the Red Sox on his way out. And he will bring up his good friends Pedro and Manny.
Book it.
kenbuzz
08-01-08, 08:28 AM
Suck it, Dodgers! :banana:
A fucking ridiculous pitched game by both Webb and Lowe. The first 6 innings were over in 45 minutes! :eek:More like "Suck it, Dodger fans!" since most of them don't even bother to show up until 45 minutes after the game has begun.
Mad Dawg
08-01-08, 08:38 AM
Gammons should be ashamed of himself. To say that Manny is a disgrace to baseball and that he doesnt care about winning is pathetic. And he stopped just short of calling Manny a murderer because of Tito's declining health.
Gammons, Lobel, Shaughnessy, and Gerry Callahan. What a bunch. :rolleyes:
Gammons in this whole thing was so Shaughnessy, but it was so much worse to me. He didn't just tear Manny down for sport, as Shaughnessy does to his favorite targets. It was the most personal, base, mean-spirited reporting I can remember seeing on a national level that didn't relate to a player's out-of-the-clubhouse stuff.
And that shit has an impact on leverage. Yes, Manny should have kept his mouth shut, yes Boras was working hard to get Manny's money. But Gammons, to me, certainly played a big role in how other front offices reacted. In fact, as much as the FO loves to leak stuff to the Globe, they couldn't have been happy with how far Gammons took it, and how loudly.
Jacoby Ellsbury
08-01-08, 09:42 AM
Sure, right now Ortiz is the happy go lucky 40 HR hitter with a big smile. But it's all going to come crashing down and I'll tell you how it's going to happen.
Bookmark this post, please.
His numbers will start to decline. Not off the chart mind you, but people will be frustrated that he is still in the number 3 or 4 spot even though his numbers won't warrant it. He'll be in his contract year and realize that he isn't getting any younger and the FO hasn't even whispered anything about a contract extension. WEEI will be flooded with hosts and shitty callers that complain about Ortiz's struggles and that he's frequently hurt. Then he will hit right into the shift and jog up the first base line. And then it begins. The fans will boo. This will piss him off royally. And he will say something about his contract. It might be innocent, but the media assholes will twist it and the boos will get worse. Then at the end of the season, the Red Sox will low ball him. Then stories will come out from anonymous sources saying shit about him. He will be pissed, sign somewhere else and talk shit about the Red Sox on his way out. And he will bring up his good friends Pedro and Manny.
Book it.
When Ortiz was making about $6M a year he was saying how it was an unbelievable amount of money, meanwhile Manny was in the middle of his $160M contract. Papi is now making what $12-13M per season. He's not as money hungry as Pedro, Nomar and Manny. He likes playing in Boston, he's got the vitamin water deal. The crowd loves him although Manny always got a louder applause on his trips up to the plate, I dont know why, Papi has done alot more for the team at half the price than Manny has done.
chrisih8u
08-01-08, 09:55 AM
When Ortiz was making about $6M a year he was saying how it was an unbelievable amount of money, meanwhile Manny was in the middle of his $160M contract. Papi is now making what $12-13M per season. He's not as money hungry as Pedro, Nomar and Manny. He likes playing in Boston, he's got the vitamin water deal. The crowd loves him although Manny always got a louder applause on his trips up to the plate, I dont know why, Papi has done alot more for the team at half the price than Manny has done.
Why do you think he does the vitamin commercials? For fun? He likes money just like everyone else. Plus, he's married, so money is always an issue. -wink-
I hope Ortiz retires from the Red Sox as a 1st ballot HOF, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Also, Papelbon may be run out of town first.
Rogue588
08-01-08, 01:18 PM
So...went to see the game last night. Got there around 4 or so. It was me, my better half, the kids, bro-in-law and his friend. I had my Tino jersey on, the wife had on a Yankee halter top (she really wanted to wear my Pettitte tee, but we've concluded that it's a jinx to wear it when Andy pitches), the kids had their Yankee attire, my bro-in-law had his LAAAAAAAAA jersey on and his friend was wearing his Dodgers jersey.
After an amusing sight of some LAAAAAAAA fans waiting until they were off the subway and in front of the stadium before putting on their gear, we headed over to the bleacher entrance and got in line. On the way there, my b-i-l's friend was asked if he was happy. He was like "uhh, sure?" and after being told exactly why he should be happy, he was practically treated like royalty there with everyone thanking and congratulating him and giving him high fives and thumbs up.
During BP, Edwar Ramirez and Bobby Abreu both gave my daughter balls that Damon and Cano hit out to right. As for my brother-in-law, he cheered during the first 3 run HR and not so much for the second. By the third one, i'm thinking he realized he was sitting amongst the Bleacher Creatures and celebrated silently (and with my daughter, in her Yankee cheerleader outfit, on his lap - guess he felt he needed some protection :lol: ).
Anyways, while the Yankees lost, we had a good time. I'm going to try to catch one more game (one that the Yanks would hopefully win) to end the old Yankee Stadium experience on a good note.
Oh, and perhaps it's me, but it really didn't make sense to put Pudge in the game instead of Molina. Besides the fact that he played for the friggin' Angels, Molina definitely woulda put a stop to the Angel's running game last night. Oh well.
Mordred
08-01-08, 01:27 PM
Looking back, I think the A-Rod situation is a great example. The Sox FO and Rangers FO fucked that up terribley. Then the hype machine turns around and somehow the blame is on A-Rod.I honestly don't remember the whole A-Rod to Boston deal that fell through, but I do know that A-Rod and Boras basically forced Texas to deal him. He was making similar comments to what Manny was saying but they were more along the lines of "The FO doesn't know how to build a winner around me" and "I want to play for a team that can win." With Texas continuing to pay something like 7 million a year to him until A-Rod opted-out you can tell they were pretty desperate.
drmoze
08-01-08, 01:40 PM
I-Rod? I only know of Pudge.
Me too. And Pudge is, and always will be, none other than Carlton Fisk thankyouverymuch.
Goat3001
08-01-08, 01:40 PM
^well my point wasn't that A-Rod wanted to leave Texas. He did and he had a better reason to leave Texas than Manny had to leave Boston. A-Rod wanted to win because he already had the money. Manny wanted the money because he already has the championships (and money too, but whatever).
What happened was that the Sox and Rangers had in place was to bring in A-Rod for Manny and ship Nomar out somewhere. The whole thing fell through. There was a lot of money on the table and the teams just couldn't figure it out. A-Rod wanted out of Texas and just wanted to play for a contender. He would have been happy as shit if he ended up with the Red Sox.
Yankees come in and swoop A-Rod away and tell him he has to be willing to play 3rd or they would cancel the deal. A-Rod agrees.
Boston sports media turns around and blames this on Boras, The Yankees and A-Rod when the deal was clearly messed up because of the Sox and Rangers front offices. So my point isn't what specifically happened with A-Rod and compare it to Manny but that the Boston media will spin anything to put the favor on the Sox front office.
On a side note: This is what eventually sent Nomar into a slump and led to him being a bad clubhouse guy. He was a good guy all along until the Red Sox decided it was best to bring in A-Rod and move Nomar out, who had just come off two great seasons. You can't blame him. I'd be pretty upset too if I was considered one of the best players on my team and out of nowhere they decided they wanted an upgrade only to have it fall through making me stay where I was.
Jacoby Ellsbury
08-01-08, 01:47 PM
Nomar refused to switch positions, he was a subpar fielding SS. He broke down, turned down 4/$60M then got offered 4/$48M and turned that down. Well that 4 year deal would be up this year, instead he's made about $30M and has played 3rd and 1B voluntarily and missed out on a couple WS rings, although if he stuck around they probably would have only won one(it may not have been 04 or 07) but this group of owners and management will pump out a championship every 5-10 years. Nomar was the greatest player in a sox uniform until he started sulking over the a-rod trade and then his body started breaking down from the roids(refer to the SI cover and the freak injuries).
VinVega
08-01-08, 02:44 PM
I thought the thing that killed the A-Rod trade to Boston was the fact that A-Rod would have accepted a pay cut while under contract to play for the Red Sox and the Player's Union denied the trade.
The Yankees got him because they paid him his full salary (that and Texas ate a bunch of it).
Sweet Baby James
08-01-08, 02:50 PM
I thought the thing that killed the A-Rod trade to Boston was the fact that A-Rod would have accepted a pay cut while under contract to play for the Red Sox and the Player's Union denied the trade.
The Yankees got him because they paid him his full salary (that and Texas ate a bunch of it).
That's how I remembered it.
Goat3001
08-01-08, 02:57 PM
^Thats part of it. But because of the high cost of Manny the Rangers refused to eat some of A-Rod's salary thus leading to him asking for a pay cut. Which was denied. At the end of the day my point isn't about who fucked up the deal. My point was that the Boston media spun it to so the Sox FO was in a good light and everyone else was to blame. They are the ones that were looking to take Manny and Nomar off their books but not pay the entire salary for A-Rod.
Meanwhile, IMO the Sox FO should get at least some of the blame for what happened with Nomar, Pedro, Damon and Manny but the Boston media refuses to see it that way.
I know they have their policies and what they want to do and what they refuse to do. Every front office has these rules but sometimes you have to bend them to accomodate you're stars. They did good by Varitek by accomdating his needs.
I work for an investment company. We have our big clients and our small ones. We do whatever we can to make our big clients happy because they do the most for us. The Sox have done a good job of losing big players and staying on top. It is pretty damn impressive if you ask me, but at the same time they should be able to make the ones that got them there happy. Just my opinion of course.
Jacoby Ellsbury
08-01-08, 03:10 PM
I work for an investment company. We have our big clients and our small ones. We do whatever we can to make our big clients happy because they do the most for us. The Sox have done a good job of losing big players and staying on top. It is pretty damn impressive if you ask me, but at the same time they should be able to make the ones that got them there happy. Just my opinion of course.
You dont pay a player for past performance. Thats what the yankees do when they sign every former MVP to ridiculous contracts. It doesnt work. $1.5B in payroll later the yanks havent won a thing.
At the same time I wish the sox would make a stronger effort to sign their young guys long term. Im old fashioned where I like to see a player stay with the same team their entire career. Lock up Youkilis, Pedroia, Lester and Papelbon long term. These guys are all relatively healthy and proven they can perform in a big city and show signs of all-star caliber careers.
Goat3001
08-01-08, 03:22 PM
You dont pay a player for past performance. Thats what the yankees do when they sign every former MVP to ridiculous contracts. It doesnt work. $1.5B in payroll later the yanks havent won a thing.
At the same time I wish the sox would make a stronger effort to sign their young guys long term. Im old fashioned where I like to see a player stay with the same team their entire career. Lock up Youkilis, Pedroia, Lester and Papelbon long term. These guys are all relatively healthy and proven they can perform in a big city and show signs of all-star caliber careers.
I'm not saying that the Sox should sign their players long term. All I'm saying is to give them a little more respect. Tell Manny straight up what they plan to do with him after the season. Say "if you perform well this year we'll extend your contract". If they went the extra length for Damon (not money wise, but accomodation wise) that they went for Varitek I'm sure Damon would have signed for less. That mother fucker still talks about how much he loves the Red Sox.
There is a difference between letting older players go and disrespecting them. Manny, Pedro, Damon and Nomar all can't be incredibly selfish money hungry player. The Red Sox went wrong with some of them somewhere and they found a way to have the fans turn on them too.
Chris is right. I would not be surprised if the exact same thing happened with Ortiz in a few years.
And I agree. They should make a play to sign all those players you listed to long term contracts before they get a chance to bitch about how things happen in the Red Sox camp. All those guys deserve to be there for the long run.
Jericho
08-01-08, 03:36 PM
The Sox are better off in '09, there is no doubt about that. I don't buy that they are even close to better off in '08. Status quo at best. I would imagine if one factors in "addition by subtraction" Nomar-style, okay, maybe a touch better.
The best news is not having to compete in the '08 offseason corner OF free agent market. My main point of frustration is that they were put over a barrel and lost out on other pieces.
I'm very happy they have Bay, no doubt. I'm not saying it's a disaster or anything, but given the price, for '08 I'm just not thrilled at the deal as a whole.
From a talent standpoint, I'd agree, it's pretty much status quo. I don't mean to insinuate Bay is better than Ramirez or that the Red Sox really improved themselves on the field. But with an OF solution locked in for next season at a cheap rate, the Red Sox have put themselves in a better position for next year already. And by ridding themselves of a distraction and potential clubhouse cancer, they should be in a happier position going forward. That's all I meant.
drmoze
08-01-08, 04:18 PM
From a talent standpoint, I'd agree, it's pretty much status quo. I don't mean to insinuate Bay is better than Ramirez or that the Red Sox really improved themselves on the field. But with an OF solution locked in for next season at a cheap rate, the Red Sox have put themselves in a better position for next year already. And by ridding themselves of a distraction and potential clubhouse cancer, they should be in a happier position going forward. That's all I meant.
I concur. We don't get any inside scoop, but I think a large % of the clubhouse was getting pissed over Manny's antics. I think there will be a revamped focus on baseball and winning in Boston, which more than makes up forthe slight loss of raw talent. Hustle and morale do count.And I think Bay might be banging shots off/over the Monster. The next 2 months will tell.
parrotheads4
08-01-08, 05:38 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so this may have been brought up.
RE: the Manny Ramirez trade
Isn't the big winner Scott Boras? Boras would have gotten $0 for Manny in Boston next year. Now he gets to re-negotiate Manny's contract and collect 10%. It makes me think he pushed this to happen.
Mordred
08-01-08, 06:36 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so this may have been brought up.
RE: the Manny Ramirez trade
Isn't the big winner Scott Boras? Boras would have gotten $0 for Manny in Boston next year. Now he gets to re-negotiate Manny's contract and collect 10%. It makes me think he pushed this to happen.Why wouldn't Boras get any of that money? I'm sure if Boston exercised the option, then Boras would get his regular 10% or whatever. I would assume agents get fees for anything they "negotiate" into the contract with their clients, whether it's guaranteed or optional.
parrotheads4
08-01-08, 06:50 PM
I think Manny's old agent would have gotten the money if he stayed in Boston.
lordwow
08-01-08, 06:52 PM
Ya, Boras was not Manny's agent when the original contract was signed, so he would have gotten no money if the options were picked up.
tofferman
08-01-08, 07:59 PM
Me too. And Pudge is, and always will be, none other than Carlton Fisk thankyouverymuch.
:up:
huh?
08-02-08, 05:26 AM
From today's Globe:
Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.
For the Sox, the source said, Ramírez's pledge of good behavior only served as a tacit admission that his disruptive conduct of the last couple of weeks had been calculated, and they had had good cause to suspect more was in the offing if they did not trade him. The Sox told him thanks but no thanks, what was done was done, and pack plenty of sunscreen.
drmoze
08-02-08, 02:16 PM
From today's Globe:
Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.
For the Sox, the source said, Ramírez's pledge of good behavior only served as a tacit admission that his disruptive conduct of the last couple of weeks had been calculated, and they had had good cause to suspect more was in the offing if they did not trade him. The Sox told him thanks but no thanks, what was done was done, and pack plenty of sunscreen.
And just another clear indicator that it was the greedy bastard Boras who wanted more $$$ in his filthy pockets by getting Manny to lose the option so Boras could suck money off a new contract. :mad:
I hope Manny tears a tendon and gets nothing for the next few years because he can't play at all. Sorry, but he crossed the line with his shitty antics.
Qui Gon Jim
08-03-08, 08:31 AM
I thought the thing that killed the A-Rod trade to Boston was the fact that A-Rod would have accepted a pay cut while under contract to play for the Red Sox and the Player's Union denied the trade.
The Yankees got him because they paid him his full salary (that and Texas ate a bunch of it).
This is what I thought too.
I do agree that the Boston media acts as the hitmen for the FO. Last year, as the Yanks made their surge at the end of the season, all of a sudden the media started selling that making the playoffs was the important thing, and that winning the division was not a big deal. Trying to soften the blow, should the Yanks have pulled it off. I posted last year that this Red Sox fan would have been mighty disappointed if they had not taken the division.
This situation is a little different in that Manny burnt the bridges with his teammates first. But I don't completely disagree that the media "sells" the trade to the fans as a positive.
Buy: