Red Dog

…and Great Maker, this was one excellent show. I happened to be in Costco about 3 weeks ago and saw the season sets for $19 each. I had been wanting to watch this show for some time based on the word of mouth here but it hasn’t been repeated on cable for years so I took the plunge and bought them all. Took me less than 3 weeks to watch the whole thing. It was actually perfect given the summer TV lull.

Yes, it starts slow with a number of clunker episodes, but I held on, as implored, and was rewarded. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a show weave so many major themes, from religion to evolution to politics (totalitarianism-vs-freedom) to prejudice/xenophobia to war/peace so very well. The latter 3 are right up my alley – I’m a sucker for such stories, particularly Orwellian totalitarianism, but for the religious themes to score with someone like me speaks volumes.

Most of the characters are very rich and easy to engage oneself with. A lot of growth in the characters over the course of the series.

One of the things I really enjoyed about this vision of the future is that Earth is not some democrat-socialist utopia – the kind that makes a Picard vaguely say such piffle as “the economics of the future are somewhat different” and where the capitalist-Ferengi are portrayed as bad guys. Well, how exactly did you pay for that Starship, Starfleet Command? Slave labor? In the B5 Earth, there are still classes, you don’t get something for nothing, people strive to earn money - a pursuit of wealth, government still has budgets to deal with, contracts with private entities, and has to figure out how to pay for things. A refreshing take on what should be expected – that capitalism, despite its perceived flaws by some, will always have a place on this Earth to some degree. Even the criminal law, which we get glimpses of early in the series, isn’t perfect.

As for the plotlines, what really scored for me was the Earth civil war. Like I said, I’m a sucker for stories that examine creeping totalitarianism, and I think B5 did a great job of capturing it, particularly with the Nightwatch and Psi-corps. Even better was how, even before the civil war, how Sinclair used an almost lawyerly approach to deal with such crackdowns (such as circumvention of the chain of command) – he’s clearly a constitutionalist. The resulting dictatorship and the defeat of the dictatorship was great to see played out.

Obviously, the Psi-corps storyline also was very well done from not only an evolutionary standpoint (and how they ultimately revealed what gave all the races the power of telepathy) but also to the prejudice standpoint – whether it’s mundanes who “don’t trust them” or the telies who view themselves as superior. Never would have thought of Chekov as someone else, but his Bester was great to watch. I even liked the Byron storyline. Even the Psi-corps commercial in that one episode was extremely fun to watch.

G’Kar and Londo. I’m sure I won’t be saying anything that hasn’t already been said. One of the greatest pairs of fictional enemies and one of the greatest pairs of fictional friends that I’ve ever seen or read. You rarely see both with the same 2 characters. My words really can’t do justice to the richness of these characters and the growth that they experiences. They were the best sources of comedy on the who and the best sources of drama. I just have to offer one almost throw-away line from Londo in the series as one of my favorites: “Intelligence has nothing to do with politics.” So basic, so true, yet never uttered before.

As for religion, the traditional rise of a religious figure such as G’Kar and the transformation of Sinclair/Valen was handled very well. But even beyond the ‘resurrection’ of Sheridan (which kind of made me –rolleyes- as I’ll mention later), they effectively echoed the religious-like reverence of political figures, such as George Washington, with Sheridan (far more GW than Abe Lincoln, his hero). You had the extreme messianism with a figure like Cartagia to the far more subtle messianism of Sheridan.

Those are the areas that really worked for me. I’d say my favorite parts of the series were S2, S3 (best season overall), and the latter half of S4. My guess is that I am in the minority on this, but I was kind of down on the first half of S4 because I was so anxious for them to return to the Earth civil war to kick ass, and while the Shadow storyline (and Morden) was great to watch, I didn’t really care for Sheridan’s ‘resurrection’ (trying a little too hard for Jesus there), the concept of the First Ones, and the whole Order/Vorlons vs. Chaos/Shadows. Seeing as how S4 was accelerated in case of cancellation, I suppose I should be grateful for that. That being said, I loved the events on Centauri Prime with Londo/G’Kar/Cartagia at the beginning of S4.

I’d say my favorite strings of episodes were Messages from Earth/Point of No Return/Severed Dreams in S3, Epiphanies/Illusion of Truth/Atonement in S4, No Surrender No Retreat through Rising Star in S4.

I even liked S5. Yeah, got to come down from the heights of S4, but I thought the Byron storyline would theoretically set things up well for any future movies on the next inevitable war. Plus it meant a lot of Bester. The new captain worked for me – you needed some new blood in the leadership circle, and let’s face it – Tracy Scoggins was a major hottie in her day. Frankly, I was a little surprised that they didn’t hook up Garabaldi and her, even though he had the girlfriend on Mars. Seemed like they were going for sexual tension in their arguments. Of course, it ended on a strong suit with the fall of Centauri and the Drakh, although I wish we got to see more of the long-term implications of the Drakh, but I guess they were setting things up for a future movie or series.

I could have done without the substance-abuse theme. Been there, done that on umpteen different shows. You don’t have to hammer us over the head more than once with it. Speaking of which, the doctor – boring character – at least to me. Walkabout indeed. I found myself wishing the doctor walked about into one of the airlocks.

The Vorlons. I don’t really know what to say about them. It some ways, they were great – the mystery of them, and how they represent the opposition to the Shadows but at the same time, I felt myself growing tired of all the mystery, particularly since the Shadow War took us away from the entertaining Earth Civil War for practically a full season. Then that whole Jack the Ripper thing? Say what? Is this “Wolf in the Fold?”

I have to say that I was a little disappointed in the series finale because Londo was my favorite character and I was hoping that the prophecy wouldn’t go exactly to plan because what happens to Londo is pure tragedy. The Lurker Guide cleared up some questions for me (like what happened to the Keeper Londo gave Sheridan for his son and how they end up on Centauri Prime in the future) but I guess I was just hoping to see it play out. Plus the whole Sheridan going into the white light was a bit over the top for my taste.

Favorite characters – Londo, G’Kar, Bester, Morden

That’s pretty much all I can say in my ‘review,’ except for the fact that I think I have may have found sci-fi superior to Star Trek, which is very hard for me to say.

I have a number of questions that I was hoping to get answered, but I haven’t watched The Gathering or In the Beginning so I’ll wait after until I watch them to ask my questions. I have checked out the Lurker Guide some.

My one question for now is, based on what you see that I liked and what I didn’t particularly care for, should I consider watching BSG or Farscape? A friend nearby has BSG so I could easily borrow those.

That was my longest post ever. See what you people who gush about B5 did to me?!

Tracer Bullet

Glad you liked it. I'm actually rewatching B5 again, I started a couple of weeks ago. It'll be my second time through the whole show, and my fourth through seasons 1-4.

At this point, knowing where the show went and what it turned into, I wouldn't recommend BSG. It's not a 16th of the show that B5 is.

An4h0ny

i concur

i'm about to start season 3 and i'm a converted fan

used to make fun of it out of ignorance but now i realize that it's a landmark piece of work

i actually was watching Battlestar Galactica seasons 2-4 while I was watching B5, seasons 1-2 and there were a LOT of similarities, story-wise.

only thing about b5 that still cracks me up is some of the cgi stuff. it still works though. great guest stars too. that show is like a sci-fi nerdgasm

Red Dog

That's what I've heard. Can you elaborate w/o getting spoiler-specific?

spainlinx0

Loved your write-up, and it made me want to go back and watch the show all the way through again.

I would recommend Farscape, but then it's not really like this show at all. However since you seem to like Sci-Fi I would say to give it a shot. It is VERY different. There is actually a thread that went into this that is on the board with conversation at the moment. Just read that. I will say that there is a character there that might be my favorite over Gkar or Londo, but in a different way.

Red Dog

Yeah - I'm more skeptical of Farscape than BSG based on what I've read in here in the past about it being so 'out there,' and I did read that thread yesterday. That's why I mentioned what I liked and didn't like so much about B5, and the Vorlons/Shadows/First Ones storyline was probably the most 'out there' part of B5 to me and of all the major plotlines, save perhaps S5-Byron, it was probably my least favorite.

An4h0ny

just very similar story arcs/episodes that deal with the exact same issues in the same way(s)

the episode of B5 that deals with the Dock Workers rights (Dock-rats) is a good example when you compare them to the Knuckledraggers in B.G.

also the episodes of each show that deal with disease outbreak among a particular 'race' of people and how that is dealt with, very similar

many times on B.G. the theme is more drawn out, where as on B5 it will be contained to one or two episodes.

also G'Kar and Baltar have some similarities... in their character development.

someone told me that the two shows have some writers in common but i don't know that for sure...

das Monkey

Welcome.

Farscape is nothing like Babylon 5. Well, they're in space. And there's a human. That's about it. If you have access to the discs, though, it's worth a shot. It's like nothing you've ever seen before, and that's worth the risk IMO.

As for Battlestar Galactica, there are some similarities in its attempt to capture some societal futuristic realism, but there are three significant differences.

1) The special effects in Galactica are insanely good. B5's are laughable as you know, but it's about the characters, so no one really cares.

2) The storytelling in Galactica is manipulative and obnoxious. B5 was masterful at weaving story arcs into one another so that while one was finishing, another was building, and you never, ever felt cheated. Galactica seemingly manipulates the viewers because it can, and people are finally turning on it.

3) B5 stars slow, painfully slow in parts, building and building until Seasons 3 and 4 are some of the most badass television ever. Galactica is the opposite. It starts kicking ass from Day One, dark and intense and ruthless, and then it slowly devolves into Space Opera 90210 garbage with maybe one or two episodes per season worth watching.

My recommendation would be to give Farscape a spin and see if you like it. As Mr. Tony would say, "It's 50/50. You'll either like it or you won't." But I wouldn't even bother with Galactica. Maybe when the endgame plays out, I'll change my tune on it, but I feel pretty stupid having watched as much of it as I have. Based on what you've posted, and what I know about you, Galactica is more thematically in keeping with things you'd like; I just think the execution is terrible. But a lot of people disagree with me on that.

In any case, welcome aboard.

das

P.S. You probably should have watched In the Beginning after Season 4, but definitely watch it soon. It answers a lot of questions. The Gathering will seem pretty strange at this point. Why didn't you watch it?

Chew

I'm insulted that Red Dog was watching B5 for the last few weeks and didn't allow the forum the opportunity for a single "Heh-heh-heh".

brainee

Since you clearly seem to be a fan of sci-fi, I think you should certainly check out Farscape and BSG if the opportunity arises. You might not like one (or even both) of them, but it's silly not to give them a shot based on scattered negative reviews, or bad preconceptions.

Other people are 100% right in saying Farscape has a completely different feel to it. Like B5, I felt it takes a few episodes to get going. When it was new, I remember giving a couple of episodes a shot and not being terribly impressed. After the 1st season I just happened to catch a few episodes in a marathon, and a multi-episode arc (the one which introduced Scorpius) grabbed me for good as a viewer. I won't deny that Farscape has its share of clunkers (and not just in S1). I preferred the epic multi-part space opera stories (the best of which are as good as any sci-fi on tv that I've seen) - not so much the silly stuff (like hallucination/dream eps, or low-brow comedy like alien fart jokes). The core characters were good, but I think the show suffered from some later introduced characters that just didn't work. If you work your way through the whole thing, one huge advantage you'll have over original viewers is that you won't agonize over the cliff-hanger cancellation - you'll know there's a mini-series that wraps things up. Unfortunately, the impending cancellation results in the end of the series feeling extremely rushed (especially the last ep, which is so choppy it felt like a clip/highlight show).

starman9000

Were the 90s the best decade for science fiction television? At least quantity wise it seems so, (though I realize some of the series carry over into the 2000's or started in the late 80s).

Red Dog

Because it hasn't been shipped yet.

spainlinx0

I like the weird episodes in Farscape. Crackers don't matter!

Bandoman

Tell me about it. I got that constantly while I was watching, and rarely ever have the chance to turn around and use it on someone else.

SiberianLlama

Seeing how we're all talking about B5 again, how were the "mini-movies" they recently put out?

boredsilly

I know it's blasphemy to go against the mighty das, but I have to disagree. Sure the special effects aren't up to today's standards, but all things considered I think they hold up pretty well. More on that, I think the choreography of the space battles makes you forget that the SFX look a bit like a bad PS2 game. Essentially everything is so good that you don't see the bad in the effects, but focus on the good. So the SFX are "great" in context. At least that was my reaction having just rewatched the show a few months ago.

Farscape is a interesting beast, but you're right, it's like nothing I've ever seen before. That show follows absolutely no conventions and take every non-obvious turn it can take. I remember when I watched it (over the span of 2 or 3 weeks) thinking "I cannot believe they did that" over and over again. In some ways I think it's more rewording than B5 because of the chances it takes, but that all depends if it's up your alley or not. Some people can't get past the muppets, but like the SFX on B5, I stopped seeing Henson creations and started seeing real living and breathing characters.

Good write up OP. I love seeing people discover one of the greatest shows ever.

Rocketdog2000

Well now that you've watched the show, you definitely need to watch The Gathering and In the Beginning . The former, which you should really have watched first, really looks a bit dated now, but is still worth seeing. The latter is "must see" as far as the show is concerned, and is quality.

Then of course, you should move onto the "Movies" collection, and Crusade, the spin off series, which IMHO, was very underrated.

Myself, I've never had a problem with the effects/CGI on B5. Sure it may be lacking in this day and age, but when the show was originally airing, it was cutting edge, and looked great at the time.

As far as other Sci-Fi, as a fan, I'd recommend both Farscape and Battlestar Galactica. Love 'em both, but as Das pointed out, they're both very different, but both still quite excellent. About the only series I've never gotten into is Stargate.

Chew

In the nicest terms: Pure Crap

das Monkey

To quote the man himself:
das

An4h0ny

where did jms post that, das?

here?

MrE

With BSG, Firefly, Eureka and a few others, the 00s are giving it a run, too.

Tracer Bullet

So what, no more Lost Tales?

das Monkey

Yeah, he's a regular TV Talk reader. And Book Talk.

das

An4h0ny

that kicks ass

i did not know

MEJHarrison

That's just a small quote from a much larger post. You can read the full post at www.jmsnews.com. He talks at length about B5 (skip down a couple paragraphs).