How many outs?

[ElementZ]

A friend and I were discussing outs and percentages on Hold em the other day. I came to the conclusion that the maximum outs you could have after the flop is 21. Agree/Disagree?

[Jacoby Ellsbury]

Depends what is needed to win the hand. If you have 98 of diamonds and the flop is
6D
7D
2H
you have 9 outs for a flush
8 outs for a straight
you have three more 9s and three more 8s in the deck if a pair would win the hand.
Thats a total of 23

[ElementZ]

Actually you are double counting your straight outs. It would be 6 outs for a straight because the other two cards (5,10) would be of diamonds which would give you your straight flush.

So, 21 outs is the max.

[Jacoby Ellsbury]

you're right, but like I said really comes down to the situation, what if you are heads up against someone holding 3-4 off suit with the flop above. Pretty much any card other than a 3-4 is an out card.

[El Scorcho]

What about this:

JdTd vs 2h2s

Flop: 8d 9d 8h

Outs: 9 flush, 6 straight, 3 jacks, 3 tens, 2 9s (viva la counterfeit!)

23 outs

[Jacoby Ellsbury]

What about this:

JdTd vs 2h2s

Flop: 8d 9d 8h

Outs: 9 flush, 6 straight, 3 jacks, 3 tens, 2 9s (viva la counterfeit!)

23 outs

or two more 8s. One of them is already counted in your flush but this would give you 4 or a kind with J kicker. the two 9s would split the pot and as said above, one of those 10s and one of those jacks is part of your flush

So you have 9+6+2+2+1=20 to win or add 2 more for a split, short of the 23 outs

[El Scorcho]

or two more 8s. One of them is already counted in your flush but this would give you 4 or a kind with J kicker. the two 9s would split the pot and as said above, one of those 10s and one of those jacks is part of your flush

So you have 9+6+2+2+1=20 to win or add 2 more for a split, short of the 23 outs


No.

with JdTd vs 2h2s on an 8d9d8s board, the outs are as follows:

3d, 4d, 5d, 6d, 7d, Qd, Kd, Ad (flush)
7s, 7h, 7c (Straight)
Qs, Qh, Qc (Straight)
9s, 9h, 9c (Counterfeit)
Js, Jh, Jc (pair)
Ts, Th, Tc (pair)

23 outs.

An out is one card that will improve your hand enough to take the lead in the hand. You can't allow what may or may not happen on subsequent card(s) to figure into your out calculations, technically speaking.

(however, it is often common for players to flop a backdoor flush or straight draw and estimate it as 1 out to figure into their pot odds calculations -- this is still technically not an "out")

[ElementZ]

Now the question is, would you risk your entire bankroll if you had 23 outs on the flop?

[El Scorcho]

I wouldn't get myself to the point where I'd put my entire bankroll on the line for what is a 70/30 flip.

I'd put a buy-in in a NL game or my tournament life on the line though.

However, I don't think at any point in history anyone has correctly guessed that they had 23 outs. In my example above, if someone shoved on me, the last hand I would guess they had was 22, 33, etc.

[Jacoby Ellsbury]

oops wasnt thinking of 99-88 top kicker. When you said 2 9s I thought you meant both as in full house, Im done playing this game

[El Scorcho]

BTW, the turn and river come 3c 4s if I'm the one playing JdTd there.

Or possibly Ad 2d and I lose to a 2 outer.

[namja]

Speaking of outs/draws, I lost the last 3 18-outers. In case you need a refresher (and not talking just to Jacoby Ellsbury -wink-), an 18-outer could be something like:

AdTh (Opponent) vs. Qs9s (Me)

Flop: 7s 8s Tc

I have a huge draw, but I'm currently behind. I got 18 outs:
9 cards for a flush
6 for a straight
3 for a pair of Q

[Jeremy517]

Not exactly the question being asked, but you can be behind on the turn and then win or split with any river card:

Hand one: 2 7
Hand two: 5 6
Board: 3 3 4 4 rainbow

Hand two is behind, but wins or splits with every river card.