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View Full Version : Iraq thread v.5 - Including SHOES!


Pages : 1 [2] 3

classicman2
12-04-08, 11:29 AM
If it weren't for her vote to approve the use of force she'd be president-elect, not Obama.


Surely you jest.

Obama won because he represented change, and campaigned on that.

Clinton stuck with the experience angle.

wendersfan
12-04-08, 11:35 AM
Obama won the Democratic nomination because he had a better organization and because Democratic primary voters mis-trusted Clinton due to her votes on the Iraq War.

Obama won the general election because he was the Democratic nominee running in a year when the Democrat was bound to win, thanks to the economy.

There's no 'jest' about it.

VinVega
12-04-08, 11:38 AM
c-man does have a point. Clinton was running as the front runner back in 2007. She pretty much had this thing sewn up. The experience factor was an element of her campaign.

I think in general, her campaign got lazy. They didn't cover all the angles and possibilities like the Obama surge early on in the primaries. They assumed they were going to win based on the 2007 polling.

classicman2
12-04-08, 11:46 AM
Iraq may have played a role in the Iowa caucus. Other than that I think Iraq play only a very small role in the Democratic primary election & an even smaller role in the general election. It certainly didn't affect the outcome.

McCain wouldn't have won anyway, but he lost his only trump card, national security (Iraq), when Iraq disappeared from the media.

Clinton ran a general election campaign when she should have been running a Democratic Primary election campaign.

classicman2
12-08-08, 03:19 PM
5 Blackwater security guards were indicted today for the deaths of 34 Iraq civilians.

Tsar Chasm
12-08-08, 03:33 PM
5 Blackwater security guards were indicted today for the deaths of 34 Iraq civilians.

Shamefully, Blackwater itself was not indicted.

classicman2
12-08-08, 03:36 PM
btw: The charges were for manslaughter.

Th0r S1mpson
12-08-08, 09:05 PM
If it wasn't for C-man, this war would be on page 5 of the politics forum.

classicman2
12-14-08, 08:59 AM
President Bush is in Iraq today.

wmansir
12-14-08, 02:34 PM
CBS just did a "breaking news" segment to report that an Iraqi journalist threw his shoes at Bush during a joint press conference with Maliki.

starman9000
12-14-08, 02:36 PM
CBS just did a "breaking news" segment to report that an Iraqi journalist threw his shoes at Bush during a joint press conference with Maliki.

Just saw that, it's kind of funny, although kind of scary too. Some nice reaction time by Bush to dodge those things, that guy was pretty close. I wonder what his punishment will be.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5D5oKEVqQJg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5D5oKEVqQJg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

classicman2
12-14-08, 02:38 PM
hanging

Th0r S1mpson
12-14-08, 03:22 PM
When did Dan Rather start journalisting in Iraq?

DGibFen
12-14-08, 03:26 PM
Shoe throwing is a sizable insult in the Middle East. I did like Bush's reaction: "It was a size 10."

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dmt2_wyDKJI&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dmt2_wyDKJI&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

DVD Polizei
12-14-08, 03:42 PM
Bush: "Hey, I bought you those shoes!"

starman9000
12-14-08, 03:47 PM
If only he could have caught the second one and returned fire.

Michael T Hudson
12-14-08, 04:30 PM
Pretty scary. The guy is lucky he is alive.

Psi
12-14-08, 04:38 PM
The second shoe did hit the American flag behind President Bush. We should make the guy walk barefoot on a bed of coals (or Arabian sand at noon).

damn_skippy
12-14-08, 05:08 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28223089#28223089&GT1=43001


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjdXwLQrRJ8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjdXwLQrRJ8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


<embed src="http://www.backwardsbush.com/images/BackwardsBush_Flash.swf" quality="high" wmode="transparent" bgcolor="#000000" width="300" height="255" name="BackwardsBush" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" /embed>

starman9000
12-14-08, 05:11 PM
The second shoe did hit the American flag behind President Bush. We should make the guy walk barefoot on a bed of coals (or Arabian sand at noon).

At first I thought, he's lucky he didn't do that here. But then I realized where he was.

Dr Mabuse
12-14-08, 05:14 PM
Bush is a pretty good ducker.

Pretty good on his feet huh?

I hope they torture, I mean 'legally detain', that son of a bitch shoe thrower.

:lol:

Michael Ballack
12-14-08, 05:15 PM
I'm no Bush supporter, but that was one hell of a dodge. I know with my reaction time I would have a boot mark on my face.

damn_skippy
12-14-08, 05:17 PM
Re-post in the Iraq thread. It's the only interesting thing that's been posted there for months, so don't try and steal the thunder. Oh, and people died there today too but who cares, right?

:confused:

I just think it shows how much respect was lost in the past 8 years. I cant remember any US president who has ever had something like this happen to him. Especially in a foreign country. The journalist has some balls.

kvrdave
12-14-08, 05:26 PM
He may have balls, but I also think it shows the state of journalism. Remember when they reported and didn't take sides? Hell, our own reporters didn't even take sides during the war because they were about the news and not taking sides. Maybe this guy can become a reporter here. :lol:

Jack Straw
12-14-08, 05:37 PM
Think Bush is ready to move back to TX now?

Norm de Plume
12-14-08, 05:39 PM
I'm no Bush supporter, but that was one hell of a dodge. I know with my reaction time I would have a boot mark on my face.
He has been practising for the eventuality of a shoe-flinging for years. It was only a matter of time. Looks like his training paid off.

LorenzoL
12-14-08, 05:45 PM
Good reflex by Bush to dodge that shoe.

Goldberg74
12-14-08, 06:03 PM
All I could think of was this...

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raven56706
12-14-08, 07:29 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eJ2JJeZ5750&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eJ2JJeZ5750&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Psi
12-14-08, 07:33 PM
Bush had admirable instincts but I think that the Secret Service reacted poorly. Why didn't they hustle him out of the room right away? You can see until the end of the video clip that he was just standing there watching. All of the attention was on the shoe thrower. Their first priority should have been to get him out of danger. At that time they should assume that it could have been anything, possibly much worse than a shoe (or two).

classicman2
12-14-08, 07:40 PM
:confused:

I just think it shows how much respect was lost in the past 8 years. I cant remember any US president who has ever had something like this happen to him. Especially in a foreign country. The journalist has some balls.

The 'journalist' was an idiot.

classicman2
12-14-08, 07:44 PM
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/politics-world-events/530245-iraq-thread-v-5-a-11.html

JustinCleveland
12-14-08, 07:45 PM
I think he shouted the Iraqi equivalent of "don't tase me, bro!"

General Zod
12-14-08, 07:55 PM
The 'journalist' was an idiot.

:up: Report the news - don't be the news.

There are plenty of 'journalists' around the world that don't agree with the policies of the people they are covering but they aren't stupid enough to throw things at them. It's just childish and it doesn't indicate anything except that there is a journalist that desperately needs a job he can handle.

dork
12-14-08, 07:58 PM
The journalist has some balls.
Your information may be out of date.

The Antipodean
12-14-08, 07:58 PM
I'll say one thing for Bush, he's got mad ducking skillz.

Red Dog
12-14-08, 08:05 PM
I'll say one thing for Bush, he's got mad ducking skillz.

It looked like a video game.

antspawn
12-14-08, 09:02 PM
http://i33.tinypic.com/2rq0okw.gif

General Zod
12-14-08, 09:28 PM
http://www.evilinternet.com/images/bushshoe.jpg

DGibFen
12-14-08, 10:00 PM
I've been reading Jon Meacham's biography on Andrew Jackson (http://www.amazon.com/American-Lion-Andrew-Jackson-White/dp/1400063256/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229309909&sr=8-1). At one point during his term, a man attempted to assassinate Jackson with two pistols. Both pistols malfunctioned, and Jackson walked up to the guy and started beating him with a cane.

Now all I can think is: what would Bush have done, had he had a chance to throw down a couple of blows himself?

BTW, Michelle Malkin's site has an interesting theory as to why the journalist was mad:


Kidnapped Iraqi reporter freed, says no ransom paid
19 Nov 2007 13:33:27 GMT
Source: Reuters
BAGHDAD, Nov 19 (Reuters) - An Iraqi TV journalist who was kidnapped last week in a busy Baghdad neighbourhood said he was released unharmed before dawn on Monday.

Muntazer al-Zaidi, a correspondent for the independent al- Baghdadiya television station, said he spent more than two days blindfolded, barely eating and drinking, after armed men forced him into a car as he walked to work on Friday morning in the bustling Bab al-Sharji area of central Baghdad.

“My release is a miracle. I couldn’t believe I was still alive,” Zaidi, 28, told Reuters by telephone.
Zaidi said the kidnappers had beaten him until he lost consciousness. They used his necktie to blindfold him and bound his hands with his shoelaces.

He never learned the identity of the kidnappers, who questioned him closely about his work but did not demand a ransom.

The captors later told Zaidi he would be released, throwing him on to a dark street, still blindfolded, around 3 a.m. (0000 GMT) on Monday. He was then picked up by his brother.

At least 122 journalists and 41 media support staff have been killed in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, according to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists. About 85 percent of those killed were Iraqis.

Some Iraqi journalists have been targeted by Sunni Arab militants or by Shi’ite militias. Others have been killed by U.S. forces while reporting. (Reporting by Waleed Ibrahim; Writing by Missy Ryan; Editing by Richard Balmforth)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________
Iraqi journalist hurls shoes at ‘dog’ Bush
Dec 14 2008 02:36 PM US/Eastern

An Iraqi journalist hurled his shoes and an insult at George W. Bush, without hitting him, as the US president was shaking hands with the Iraqi premier at his Baghdad office on Sunday.
As the two leaders met in Nuri al-Maliki’s private office, a journalist sitting in the third row jumped up, shouting: “It is the farewell kiss, you dog,” and threw his shoes one after the other towards Bush.

Maliki made a protective gesture towards the US president, who ducked and was not hit.

The journalist, Muntazer al-Zaidi from Al-Baghdadia channel which broadcasts from Cairo, was frogmarched from the room by security staff, an AFP journalist said.


http://michellemalkin.com/2008/12/14/bds-iraqi-journalist-edition/

Bacon
12-14-08, 10:03 PM
what would Bush have done, had he had a chance to throw down a couple of blows himself?

beat the guy with a pretzel

CRM114
12-14-08, 11:27 PM
The American Presidency is now a mockery.

General Zod
12-15-08, 12:29 AM
I wonder how the U.S. President would have been treated 8 years ago if he tried to give a speech in Iraq. I can guarantee you it wouldn't be just shoes thrown at him.

Ranger
12-15-08, 12:36 AM
http://www.evilinternet.com/images/bushshoe.jpg
Nice, but what would really be cool if somebody made a gif from Casino Royale of Bush catching the shoe with one hand and throwing it back.

Ranger
12-15-08, 12:41 AM
I'll say one thing for Bush, he's got mad ducking skillz.
Yeah, that was awesome. I'm glad he didn't get hit. Great reflexes, esp. for his age.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 12:49 AM
The American Presidency is now a mockery.

Come on now, you've been mocking it for years.

Gcomeau
12-15-08, 01:11 AM
This says it all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shnGatN7y3s

kvrdave
12-15-08, 01:24 AM
<img src=http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/SigUpPrytz204/motivationposter.jpg>

DVD Polizei
12-15-08, 02:04 AM
Good reflex by Bush to dodge that shoe.

He's lucky the motherfucker didn't have an IED in the damn thing. Fucking stupid ass security for our President is a goddamn joke, folks. And then you wonder how 9/11 happened.

I don't like Bush that much when it comes to his policies, but he's our President, and the security was suck ass.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 02:14 AM
He's lucky the motherfucker didn't have an IED in the damn thing. Fucking stupid ass security for our President is a goddamn joke, folks.

Maybe an IED would have been caught by security, whereas a shoe could slip by on... I don't know... someone's foot?

DVD Polizei
12-15-08, 02:36 AM
I meant there could have been one in the shoe.

1) Shoe is removed from foot.

2) Shoe/IED is thrown at President.

3) President ducks shoe...but still explodes with shoe on Iraqi TV.

Psi
12-15-08, 02:50 AM
I don't like Bush that much when it comes to his policies, but he's our President, and the security was suck ass.
Maybe they gave the good Secret Service to Obama ;)

classicman2
12-15-08, 08:07 AM
He's lucky the motherfucker didn't have an IED in the damn thing. Fucking stupid ass security for our President is a goddamn joke, folks. And then you wonder how 9/11 happened.

:rolleyes:

VinVega
12-15-08, 08:14 AM
He's lucky the motherfucker didn't have an IED in the damn thing. Fucking stupid ass security for our President is a goddamn joke, folks. And then you wonder how 9/11 happened.

I don't like Bush that much when it comes to his policies, but he's our President, and the security was suck ass.
You don't think that maybe they scan the reporters' shoes like they do ours when we go to the airport? Then they put their shoes back on since there was no bomb detected in it. This nut decided to fire his shoes at Bush.

I give Bush credit. He laughed it off pretty well. He's got pretty good reflexes too.

classicman2
12-15-08, 08:43 AM
Every time I believe I've heard everything on this forum - DVD Polizei suprises me once again. :lol:

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 09:34 AM
"uh, I don't have time to post on the politics forum any more since Obama won and I have some yardwork to do and stuff....but I will show up to defend Bush any time there is anything said about him....."


ps: Bush's reaction was priceless. I'm surprised this hasn't happened before. Journalism or not, this guy (Bush) has caused irreparable damage to this country and he's had it coming.....so to speak. I think it's a disrespect to the office of President, which bothers me as well, but so has all the shit Bush has done over the past 8 years. The shoe was a metaphor ;)

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 09:40 AM
He may have balls, but I also think it shows the state of journalism. Remember when they reported and didn't take sides? Hell, our own reporters didn't even take sides during the war because they were about the news and not taking sides. Maybe this guy can become a reporter here. :lol:

I agree that journalism is partly to blame, but I believe Bush's actions also share some of that burden. I like how you allude to the liberal leaning media, as if that were part of the problem as well. How about every time news comes out that you disagree with you don't call it "taking sides?:

classicman2
12-15-08, 09:45 AM
(Bush) has caused irreparable damage to this country and he's had it coming.....so to speak.

Millions of Iraqis will not agree with statement.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 09:46 AM
Millions of Iraqis will not agree with statement.

see how I said this country?

classicman2
12-15-08, 10:17 AM
Millions of Americans will disagree with that.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 10:18 AM
Millions of Americans will disagree with that.

so what? millions more will agree.

are you just trying to be difficult (for once?)

General Zod
12-15-08, 10:32 AM
(Bush) has caused irreparable damage to this country
I would say a very large majority of Americans would disagree. Irreparable? :lol: We might as well pack it in thanks to that evil Bush.

I think Clinton caused damage to the office of the president but, as much of a joke as he made of it, it wasn't irreparable.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 10:35 AM
I would say a very large majority of Americans would disagree. Irreparable? :lol: We might as well pack it in thanks to that evil Bush.


your words...not mine. we have a lot of cleaning up to do. it appears irreparable, but I hope I'm wrong.



I think Clinton caused.....

of course you do

kvrdave
12-15-08, 11:12 AM
I agree that journalism is partly to blame, but I believe Bush's actions also share some of that burden. I like how you allude to the liberal leaning media, as if that were part of the problem as well. How about every time news comes out that you disagree with you don't call it "taking sides?:


I speak in really huge generalities because I don't really watch the news. If it isn't on DVDTalk, it isn't important.

But I can't believe Bush's actions share any of the blame. I could see that argument if he attended some rally, or something of that sort, but this was a press conference. Report the news if you are a reporter. That doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

wendersfan
12-15-08, 11:20 AM
I think Clinton caused damage to the office of the president but, as much of a joke as he made of it, it wasn't irreparable.I think the damage to the image of the office from LBJ-present is irreparable. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. The level of cynicism we have now seems appropriate.

classicman2
12-15-08, 11:26 AM
Why not go back to JFK?

I know you haven't bought the 'Camelot Myth,' wendersfan. ;)

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 11:32 AM
I speak in really huge generalities because I don't really watch the news. If it isn't on DVDTalk, it isn't important.

But I can't believe Bush's actions share any of the blame. I could see that argument if he attended some rally, or something of that sort, but this was a press conference. Report the news if you are a reporter. That doesn't seem like a lot to ask.


yes, the reporter failed to do his job and report the news. I'm not arguing that. I understand the world's frustration and anger directed, specifically, towards President Bush.

kvrdave
12-15-08, 11:58 AM
yes, the reporter failed to do his job and report the news. I'm not arguing that. I understand the world's frustration and anger directed, specifically, towards President Bush.

There is a dentist in my town that is a HUGE conservative. If you go to his office druing an election cycle, you will get proseletized to about the evils of Democrats, etc. I think it is unprofessional, and I don't go to the guy. But he still does his job. So even if I can understand his frustration and anger about Democrats, he at least still does his job. Understanding frustration doesn't mean you get to be a retard. This guy went full retard. But in this world, he will be a hero.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 12:00 PM
If Bush went to the dentist and the dentist knocked him out, disfigured his face, and put feces in his mouth, there are people here who would celebrate that and say that Bush was "partly to blame." -rolleyes-

Jadzia
12-15-08, 12:11 PM
Bush must be great at Wii Fit soccer!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/urLf0vgKfvE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/urLf0vgKfvE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

wendersfan
12-15-08, 12:15 PM
Why not go back to JFK?

I know you haven't bought the 'Camelot Myth,' wendersfan. ;)I don't have much of an opinion about JFK one way or the other, except that he was in over his head and liked to bang hot women. It was with LBJ that the modern distrust of the Federal government, and the president, specifically, began. "Credibility Gap", Tet, and all that.

spainlinx0
12-15-08, 12:26 PM
There is a dentist in my town that is a HUGE conservative. If you go to his office druing an election cycle, you will get proseletized to about the evils of Democrats, etc. I think it is unprofessional, and I don't go to the guy. But he still does his job. So even if I can understand his frustration and anger about Democrats, he at least still does his job. Understanding frustration doesn't mean you get to be a retard. This guy went full retard. But in this world, he will be a hero.

You never go full retard.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 12:29 PM
There is a dentist in my town that is a HUGE conservative. If you go to his office druing an election cycle, you will get proseletized to about the evils of Democrats, etc. I think it is unprofessional, and I don't go to the guy. But he still does his job. So even if I can understand his frustration and anger about Democrats, he at least still does his job. Understanding frustration doesn't mean you get to be a retard. This guy went full retard. But in this world, he will be a hero.

why do you end with calling him a hero? no one here is? all I said is that Bush has (in my and much of the world/country's opinion) done a shit job and I'm not surprised he's been treated the way he has been. of course it was unprofessional.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 12:33 PM
If Bush went to the dentist and the dentist knocked him out, disfigured his face, and put feces in his mouth, there are people here who would celebrate that and say that Bush was "partly to blame." -rolleyes-

yeah, that argument works -ohbfrank-

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 12:35 PM
It's not an argument. It's a simple fact. I'm not referring to you.

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 12:37 PM
It's not an argument. It's a simple fact. I'm not referring to you.

so long as it doesn't refer to me, I don't care ;)

kvrdave
12-15-08, 12:47 PM
why do you end with calling him a hero? no one here is? all I said is that Bush has (in my and much of the world/country's opinion) done a shit job and I'm not surprised he's been treated the way he has been. of course it was unprofessional.


I only end with calling him a hero because I expect that is how he will be portrayed by many. Not here, again, I am talking in general.

I can't believe we are even arguing this. :lol:

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 12:49 PM
I can't believe we are even arguing this. :lol:

yes, I was just thinking the same thing. :lol:

:shrug:

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 12:51 PM
There's nothing to argue. Is Bush partly to blame? Of course. Nobody throws shows for no reason.

They only reasonable dispute is whether Obama would have won the election if Bush had demonstrated his mad dodging skills earlier while endorsing McCain. It seems to be garnering a lot of support.

VinVega
12-15-08, 12:54 PM
There's nothing to argue. Is Bush partly to blame? Of course. Nobody throws shows for no reason.

They only reasonable dispute is whether Obama would have won the election if Bush had demonstrated his mad dodging skills earlier while endorsing McCain. It seems to be garnering a lot of support.
I think he shrugs his shoulders well also.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 12:59 PM
He might be one of the best shoulder-shruggers in history, actually. Lots of pratice.

DVD Polizei
12-15-08, 07:16 PM
You don't think that maybe they scan the reporters' shoes like they do ours when we go to the airport? Then they put their shoes back on since there was no bomb detected in it. This nut decided to fire his shoes at Bush.

I give Bush credit. He laughed it off pretty well. He's got pretty good reflexes too.

I'm not going to assume security in Iraq is air-tight. And nothing has been said about this reporter being searched thouroughly. Which has me doubting the shoe searchin'.

The shoe was used as a symbol to insult Bush. A great legacy to leave Iraq with. It would be like an American shaking hands with an Arab with their left hand on purpose.

And to other posters, it doesn't matter what Americans think of this. What matters is what the Arab world thinks of this statement from an Iraqi reporter, and if they agree with it. However, they should remember if this reporter had thrown a shoe at Saddam during a press conference, he'd have it shoved backed up the reporter's ass and beheaded in public.

Every time I believe I've heard everything on this forum - DVD Polizei suprises me once again. :lol:

I'm just making sure you don't fall asleep during these debates. :)

General Zod
12-15-08, 07:31 PM
What matters is what the Arab world thinks of this statement from an Iraqi reporter, and if they agree with it.

And why does that matter? They hated us passionately before Bush came along and they hate us passionately after Bush leaves? Even if everything went swimmingly well in Iraq the Arab world would still hate us.. So I don't really see how it matters at all.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 07:43 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.

General Zod
12-15-08, 07:46 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.

Personally I would just ban him from anymore press conferences since he obviously can't control himself and perhaps a small fine that he'll have to work to pay off for the next 20 years. I don't think Jail, beheading, his family murdered, put in a plastic shredder, or any of the hosts of other things Saddam would have done in a similar circumstance is necessary.

kvrdave
12-15-08, 07:47 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.

I would think that in many places (had it been their leaders) the best he could hope for would be to have his feet cut off.

VinVega
12-15-08, 07:58 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.
Wouldn't this be considered attempted assault? I don't know what the Iraqi law is on this situation, but that's what it sounds like to me. What are his prior convictions if any?

crazyronin
12-15-08, 07:59 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.

He has to wear these for the rest of his life...

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3876/arabicslippersthumb4688ys3.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=arabicslippersthumb4688ys3.jpg)

Yes, I'm that cold-blooded.

Th0r S1mpson
12-15-08, 07:59 PM
Second question, in addition to what people think would be a fair punishment for this.

What would be a fair punishment if an American journalist threw their shoe at a visiting dignitary from the Middle East while visiting this country?

Psi
12-15-08, 08:04 PM
I'm curious what our members think a fair punishment for this action is.
I like dork's suggestion.

crazyronin
12-15-08, 08:08 PM
Second question, in addition to what people think would be a fair punishment for this.

What would be a fair punishment if an American journalist threw their shoe at a visiting dignitary from the Middle East while visiting this country?

These:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb46/the_dude25/crocs.jpg

dick_grayson
12-15-08, 08:28 PM
Did anyone hear Bush's response to the incident? He went on about how he didn't know what the guy's reasoning behind throwing the shoes. He said the guy was just trying to get on tv. Anyone believe that? Also, is it possible that Bush truly unaware of what the guy yelled? And if so, are you shitting me?!?

The Bus
12-15-08, 08:38 PM
<img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/neflm/juz953.gif">

BKenn01
12-15-08, 11:15 PM
I love that Bush keeps that smirk on his face. Like saying, heh heh, you missted me dumb ass....

General Zod
12-16-08, 12:01 AM
I love that Bush keeps that smirk on his face. Like saying, heh heh, you missted me dumb ass....

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5343/omgshoesmmbxi7.gif

BKenn01
12-16-08, 12:10 AM
rotflrotflrotflrotfl

Th0r S1mpson
12-16-08, 12:24 AM
Not only did he smirk, but he had the composure to crack a joke afterwards as well. :up:

I'd have felt the same way. While I know it's considered a great insult over there, it's a silly insult.

Th0r S1mpson
12-16-08, 12:57 AM
Too long to post the whole article, or I'm too lazy at the moment, but this story on MSNBC is worth a quick read. Dude's a hero over there and people are protesting for his release. He could get up to 2 years, but will likely get no more than a fine. A small price to pay for the fame and praise he is now receiving.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28235031/

Hank Ringworm
12-16-08, 03:50 AM
Too long to post the whole article, or I'm too lazy at the moment, but this story on MSNBC is worth a quick read. Dude's a hero over there and people are protesting for his release. He could get up to 2 years, but will likely get no more than a fine. A small price to pay for the fame and praise he is now receiving.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28235031/

The "Go Out USA" signs recall a certain scene from Life of Brian.

Draven
12-16-08, 08:54 AM
If Bush went to the dentist and the dentist knocked him out, disfigured his face, and put feces in his mouth, there are people here who would celebrate that and say that Bush was "partly to blame." -rolleyes-

And others would say the patient was "liberated" and should be grateful.

I hope the guy is punished in some way, as his actions were not appropriate. But I couldn't help but think "Of course this happened to Bush."

spainlinx0
12-16-08, 09:30 AM
They are praising a guy who couldn't even hit the president with two shoes from what, 12 feet away? The guy should be embarrassed.

classicman2
12-16-08, 10:03 AM
All the talk is about the shoes.

Why isn't there that much talke about the really important thing - the progress of the war?

VinVega
12-16-08, 10:07 AM
All the talk is about the shoes.

Why isn't there that much talke about the really important thing - the progress of the war?
Because there's nothing really exciting going on there (and that's essentially a good thing). It appears that troops will be pulling back next year and hopefully out of there completely by 2010 or 2011.

classicman2
12-16-08, 10:11 AM
I thought Obama said he would have American troops withdrawn in 16 months or earlier? :confused:

Can we now agree (as been previously stated) Obama has basically adopted the Bush Iraq Policy?

Th0r S1mpson
12-16-08, 11:04 AM
Combat troops. Combat troops. Obama's plan agreed with both McCain and Bush the moment he secured the nomination. "The course" would be virtually identical with any of those three as president. Obama didn't even rule out having many American troops there 10 years down the road (which it looks like Iraq will not allow).

But in the end, Iraq didn't even seem to matter. It was all about the economy.

wendersfan
12-16-08, 11:22 AM
But in the end, Iraq didn't even seem to matter. It was all about the economy.I was telling everyone here that almost a year ago.

classicman2
12-16-08, 12:11 PM
Obama got two intelligence briefings.

That is what changed his mind. The realities will do it every time. ;)

I suspect you'll see a subtle change in his Iran policy also.

Th0r S1mpson
12-16-08, 01:36 PM
And others would say the patient was "liberated" and should be grateful.

While my statement was quite extreme, I also think it accurate. I do not think yours is.

General Zod
12-16-08, 04:29 PM
I don't think anyone "plugged in" really considered what Obama/Hillary/Etc said about a speedy withdraw from Iraq was based on any sort of reality. It was just lip service - tell the people what they'd like to hear to get elected.. and then really look into it. The people cheering this guy are probably the very same people that celebrated when the planes flew into the world trade center. There are a lot of people in the Muslim world that hate us simply because we refuse to convert to their way of living or their beliefs and the more we spread our influence into their culture or region the more they hate us.

That's why I say stuff like this is not a big deal - at all. I also fail to see the "Bravery" involved in taking off your shoes and throwing them at someone.

Apparently some Iraqi guards beat this guy up and broke his arm. I don't think that's right but considering the region and the previous punishments handed out historically over there for something like that - I think he should consider himself lucky.

wmansir
12-16-08, 06:00 PM
This article (http://apnews.myway.com//article/20081216/D9541L200.html) casts some doubt on the reports of serious injuries:
Al-Zeidi's brother, Maitham, said he spoke with the reporter by telephone Tuesday and was told that he expected to be in court Wednesday morning.

Maitham al-Zeidi also said his brother sounded fit, despite claims by another brother that he had suffered a severe beating after being grabbed by Iraqi security at the Sunday press conference.

"Muntadhar has a broken leg, cracked ribs, some injuries under his eye, and his leg is also hurting him," al-Zeidi's brother Dhargham told The Associated Press. "He was taken to the hospital today around noon."

Dhargham said his information came from a friend who works as a security guard in the Green Zone where the shoe-throwing incident took place.

Interior Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf also denied reports that al-Zeidi had been badly injured.

"The rumors about al-Zeidi being injured or being hurt are baseless," Khalaf told the AP. "You can check that when you see him in the criminal court tomorrow morning.

spainlinx0
12-16-08, 06:07 PM
I hope that he is completely uninjured. While I find it ridiculous that the man threw a shoe at the President, I also don't want to give ammunition to terrorists about how we are torturers. Show them we are better than the old boss. What's done is done in Iraq. It is time to move forward and make it a better place.

DVD Polizei
12-16-08, 09:34 PM
Obama got two intelligence briefings.

That is what changed his mind. The realities will do it every time. ;)

I suspect you'll see a subtle change in his Iran policy also.

Obama has said all along it's best to attempt diplomatic efforts first. He never said he wouldn't use force. So, I don't see where Obama is going to change dramatically on this issue.

classicman2
12-16-08, 09:36 PM
Which policy is that - Iraq or Iran?

Surely you can't contend that he hasn't change the Iraq policy that he espoused in his campaign.

DVD Polizei
12-16-08, 09:37 PM
I was referring to Iran. Because you said "Iran" in your post. :)

classicman2
12-16-08, 09:40 PM
I also referred to a previous post concerning Iraq.

DVD Polizei
12-16-08, 09:42 PM
I don't think anyone "plugged in" really considered what Obama/Hillary/Etc said about a speedy withdraw from Iraq was based on any sort of reality. It was just lip service - tell the people what they'd like to hear to get elected.. and then really look into it. The people cheering this guy are probably the very same people that celebrated when the planes flew into the world trade center. There are a lot of people in the Muslim world that hate us simply because we refuse to convert to their way of living or their beliefs and the more we spread our influence into their culture or region the more they hate us.

That's why I say stuff like this is not a big deal - at all. I also fail to see the "Bravery" involved in taking off your shoes and throwing them at someone.

Apparently some Iraqi guards beat this guy up and broke his arm. I don't think that's right but considering the region and the previous punishments handed out historically over there for something like that - I think he should consider himself lucky.

We already know there are Muslims who hate us. The goal is to win over the moderates. Because theoretically, we have more of them than the extremists. And so here's the problem. Trying to win a moderate's acceptance in the face of shoes being thrown at a US icon. It just doesn't help our position in Iraq, let's put it that way.

We can pull out of Iraq as quickly as a guy who can pull off a pair of shoes. So, let's get started. Already.

DVD Polizei
12-16-08, 09:47 PM
I also referred to a previous post concerning Iraq.

Ok. Well, I was referring to Iran.

As to Iraq however, we'll just have to see. I think Obama might have some different ideas to present to the NST. And yes, it's amazing we have several Neocons giving a nod at this NST, but who knows what's really going on. We'll just have to let things unfold a little more. Much can happen between now and spring and summer.

Draven
12-17-08, 01:45 AM
While my statement was quite extreme, I also think it accurate. I do not think yours is.

Why not? There are definitely people on this board who think the Iraq people (and Americans for that matter) should be grateful for our invasion of their country, no matter what we do while we are there.

Th0r S1mpson
12-17-08, 02:10 AM
Why not?

So you are honestly defending your statement that if a dentist knocked out Bush and put feces in his mouth, there are people on this forum that would say he was "liberated" and should be grateful? That makes no sense, sorry.

DGibFen
12-17-08, 11:04 PM
Looks like the Iraqi ambassador wasn't too happy with some members of this crowd today:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ElEN4i2V9v8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ElEN4i2V9v8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

DVD Polizei
12-17-08, 11:34 PM
I thought Obama said he would have American troops withdrawn in 16 months or earlier? :confused:

Can we now agree (as been previously stated) Obama has basically adopted the Bush Iraq Policy?

Yes, Cman. Obama is Bush. I can see so many similarities...why...I'm just awestruck. Hell, when Bush dodged those shoes, he moved like Michael Jordan on a basketball court. That was the defining moment for me, and so I cave to your reasoning.

classicman2
12-18-08, 12:06 AM
I didn't say Obama was Bush. But, he most assuredly has, in effect, adopted the same Iraq policy as George Bush is now pursuing.

You can try to make light of it as you have done in the above post, but you can't, with a straight face, deny that fact.

I realize the truth hurts, especially when one such as yourself has been so critical of Bush's policy in Iraq - virtually the same policy that Obama now has adopted. I wonder if now you will continue that criticism of the policy?

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 09:53 AM
I'm not sure what Obama could reasonably do differently given the circumstances. I don't fault him for his current policy, but I understand you are asking if people opposed to Bush's views will follow that up with opposition to Obama's now that he is taking over the reins.

Bush got us into the situation and while he would have likely taken us back out of it in a manner very similar to the way Obama will, I'm not sure it's fair to say that people must be opposed to the approach now. People didn't trust Bush's judgment.

The only error of course is the earlier portrayal of Obama's approach as substantively different from Bush's. There were great difference a few years ago, but he failed to embrace the surge of which he is now the beneficiary and eventually their plans came together. This could have been a very good thing (one plan, one course), if it were portrayed that way. Instead they kept up the lines of division. But it's time to get over that now and get our butts out of there.

Even Bush himself would agree with that, rather than calling on his opponents to denounce Obama's approach if they didn't like his.

The bottom line is that Bush "deserves" a lot of the credit for recent successes there and our likely withdrawal in the next few years. But people aren't going to give "credit" for undoing a mess that they felt was created by him to begin with.

General Zod
12-18-08, 10:07 AM
BAGHDAD (AP) - A spokesman for Iraq's prime minister says the journalist who threw his shoes at President George W. Bush has asked for a pardon.

Spokesman Yassin Majid says that in a letter sent Thursday to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki the journalist described his behavior as "an ugly act" and asked to be pardoned.

Majid says that Muntadhar al-Zeidi in the letter recalls the kindness the prime minister once showed him during an interview in 2005 and asked for al-Maliki to show him kindness once again.

Al-Zeidi, a correspondent for an Iraqi-owned television station based in Cairo, Egypt, could face two years imprisonment for insulting a foreign leader.

Well of course he calls it an "ugly act" to try and get out of jail but I don't, for one minute, think he regrets doing it.

classicman2
12-18-08, 10:23 AM
I think people should realize that whatever a presidential candidate may say or promise take with a rather large grain of salt. Sometimes, they're simply not being truthful. Other times when they make such statements that not 'acquainted' with the facts & don't have the responsibility. I think the second one fits Obama.

Now when Clinton promised a middle-class tax cut, well that's something different. ;)

classicman2
12-18-08, 10:40 AM
More than 20 employees of Iraq's Ministry of the Interior have been arrested on allegations that they were plotting to revive Saddam Hussein's outlawed Baath party, government officials said Thursday.

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 10:48 AM
I think people should realize that whatever a presidential candidate may say or promise take with a rather large grain of salt.

Well, if all you're after is an election season lesson, that's fine. I think it's fair to ask people if Obama overstated his differences on Iraq. That's different than asking people to disagree with the end approach.

classicman2
12-18-08, 10:55 AM
I think he did more that overstate his differences on Iraq.

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 11:43 AM
Agreed. He overstated them and looked rather fetching at the same time.

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 11:47 AM
Back to those arrests... it seems like that could be a potentially big story depending on how it pans out. I also read the following on CNN this morning, which is a bit horriffic: BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Gunmen broke into the house of a women's rights activist in the volatile northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk on Thursday and beheaded her, police said.

The victim was identified as Nahla Hussain, the leader of the women's league of the Kurdish Communist Party. She was alone in the house at the time of her death.

It is not known what the circumstances were that led to the attack. Violence against women has been an ongoing problem in Iraq.

Absolute savages. I would be happy to enjoy all of 2009 without reading the word "beheading" at all. I somehow doubt it will be so joyous.

wendersfan
12-18-08, 12:02 PM
During a campaign, the candidates and the voters play a little game. They make all these statements that insinuate that, once elected, they will have absolute power to get everything in their agenda implemented, and we pretend that this is the truth. When, in fact, all officeholders, even presidents of the United States, are constrained and affected by forces completely beyond their control. President Bush is the perfect example of this. Imagine his presidency <i>sans</i> 9/11 and Katrina.

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 12:09 PM
Have any American companies decided to make shoes with Bush's face or imprint on the sole yet? I think it could be a money-maker.

al_bundy
12-18-08, 12:30 PM
Back to those arrests... it seems like that could be a potentially big story depending on how it pans out. I also read the following on CNN this morning, which is a bit horriffic:

Absolute savages. I would be happy to enjoy all of 2009 without reading the word "beheading" at all. I somehow doubt it will be so joyous.


this is being nice

there are some middle eastern beheading videos on youtube and they are insane. completetly unlike what you expect or what the europeans did back in the day

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 12:55 PM
Well, yes... the preferred method over there is far more brutal than the good old guillotine. I have a feeling the animals they are to imitate the slaughter of are even done away with more mercifully.

General Zod
12-18-08, 12:59 PM
Have any American companies decided to make shoes with Bush's face or imprint on the sole yet? I think it could be a money-maker.

Too late. In a months time nobody will be talking about Bush anymore. It will all be about Obama and how he got us into this mess!!

classicman2
12-18-08, 01:20 PM
During a campaign, the candidates and the voters play a little game. They make all these statements that insinuate that, once elected, they will have absolute power to get everything in their agenda implemented, and we pretend that this is the truth. When, in fact, all officeholders, even presidents of the United States, are constrained and affected by forces completely beyond their control. President Bush is the perfect example of this. Imagine his presidency <i>sans</i> 9/11 and Katrina.


:up:

IMO, Obama really does want universal health care - I do too.

However, I believe he'll come to the realization (if he already hasn't) that with the present economic situation there's no way to fund it.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 01:21 PM
so it doesn't bother anyone that Bush doesn't know or care what the motive was? or the fact that he dismisses it as a "publicity stunt?" I am astounded at the redefinition of willful ignorance.

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 01:26 PM
I don't think Bush has much to gain by expressing concern.

classicman2
12-18-08, 01:27 PM
so it doesn't bother anyone that Bush doesn't know or care what the motive was? or the fact that he dismisses it as a "publicity stunt?" I am astounded at the redefinition of willful ignorance.


Of course it was a publicity stunt.

I'm astounded that you doubt it.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 01:34 PM
I don't think Bush has much to gain by expressing concern.

concern is one thing.

here's what Bush's response was:

"Let me talk about the guy throwing his shoe. It's one way to gain attention. It's like going to a political rally and having people yell at you. It's like driving down the street and having people not gesturing with all five fingers.

"It's a way for people to draw attention. I don't know what the guy's cause is. But one thing is for certain. He caused you to ask me a question about it. I didn't feel the least bit threatened by it.



and here's what the guy yelled:

"This is from the widows, the orphans, and those who were killed in Iraq!"


it's not that complicated. a response grounded in reality would have been.....appropriate

General Zod
12-18-08, 01:46 PM
The guy shouted it in Arabic. I'm sure if Bush really wanted to know what the guy's cause is he could find out but, at Thor says, I don't really think it matters much to Bush what one crazy reporters opinion is. I suppose you expect Bush to say "Woah. Hold everything. This guy is really upset and we should have meetings and plans to make him happy. Pull everyone out right now. I've seen the light thanks to the shoe throwing man!"? I think a grounding in reality would be a good idea..

CRM114
12-18-08, 01:55 PM
:up:

IMO, Obama really does want universal health care - I do too.

However, I believe he'll come to the realization (if he already hasn't) that with the present economic situation there's no way to fund it.

The corporate pressure will become overwhelming. Plus there is so much money in the insurance system that the figures needed to fund it are vastly overstated.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 02:01 PM
The guy shouted it in Arabic. I'm sure if Bush really wanted to know what the guy's cause is he could find out but, at Thor says, I don't really think it matters much to Bush what one crazy reporters opinion is. I suppose you expect Bush to say "Woah. Hold everything. This guy is really upset and we should have meetings and plans to make him happy. Pull everyone out right now. I've seen the light thanks to the shoe throwing man!"? I think a grounding in reality would be a good idea..

Bush's response was after the incident (not sure how long) but I can't imagine no one bothered to tell him. I agree that it probably doesn't matter since the motive should have been obvious. But to say it was simply for publicity is an understatement and an insult.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 02:14 PM
also, if we deleted out all the straw man red-herring posts in this forum, this place would be empty

General Zod
12-18-08, 02:42 PM
Bush's response was after the incident (not sure how long) but I can't imagine no one bothered to tell him. I agree that it probably doesn't matter since the motive should have been obvious. But to say it was simply for publicity is an understatement and an insult.

OK but he also said "It's a way for people to draw attention".. Do you disagree with Bush on that as well?

Take Bush's point for just a moment. Do you expect him to attempt to understand why every person that disrupts a speech, flips him off as he drives by, or burns his effigy is doing so? Why should he give the shoe thrower any special attention? I think, if anything, making light of the situation is exactly the right way to handle it.

I agree that it was more than just a publicity stunt but at the same time it was a publicity stunt. He could have raised his hand and asked Bush directly "Now that you are leaving how do you feel about the widows, orphans, and those that were killed in Iraq because of your decisions?". Personally I think that would have been a much more effective method than throwing shoes at the man?

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 02:46 PM
OK but he also said "It's a way for people to draw attention".. Do you disagree with Bush on that as well?

Take Bush's point for just a moment. Do you expect him to attempt to understand why every person that disrupts a speech, flips him off as he drives by, or burns his effigy is doing so? Why should he give the shoe thrower any special attention? I think, if anything, making light of the situation is exactly the right way to handle it.

I agree that it was more than just a publicity stunt but at the same time it was a publicity stunt. He could have raised his hand and asked Bush directly "Now that you are leaving how do you feel about the widows, orphans, and those that were killed in Iraq because of your decisions?". Personally I think that would have been a much more effective method than throwing shoes at the man?

I certainly don't think that Bush should attempt to understand everyone that disrupts a speech or flips him off or whatever, but I think this was a bigger deal than that. How many other times has Bush taken open questions from the Iraq press?

I think we agree overall, though. :)

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 04:32 PM
People said the same things outside both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Only much more loudly. I believe they were dismissed as interruptions then as well.

Yes, this was indeed a stand-out moment because it's not every day we have reporters throwing shoes at our leaders. But doing anything other than dismissing it would only ensure that more shoes find their way into your restricted airspace. Unless you really go after the guy, but that's a bad idea as well given the sentiment.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 04:42 PM
he did the right thing at the moment. I was referring to his response in a later interview where he claimed to have no idea why the guy threw his shoes at him.

how many times do I have to keep saying that?

General Zod
12-18-08, 04:51 PM
he did the right thing at the moment. I was referring to his response in a later interview where he claimed to have no idea why the guy threw his shoes at him.

how many times do I have to keep saying that?

I'm still not clear as to why this bothers you so much. It's not like Bush said he was seeking that information and couldn't get it. He just said he doesn't know and my guess is because he doesn't give a half a crap what the shoe throwing guys problem is. I wouldn't either. So what?

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 04:57 PM
I'm still not clear as to why this bothers you so much. It's not like Bush said he was seeking that information and couldn't get it. He just said he doesn't know and my guess is because he doesn't give a half a crap what the shoe throwing guys problem is. I wouldn't either. So what?

It's like sleeping with an man's wife and when he launches at you with an object, you claim he's mentally ill and act as if you don't know why he's coming after you. That is what bothers me. It is pretty clear what the motive was. Bush's post-shoe-incident response bothered me because it was just another example of how purposefully clueless this guy is.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 05:01 PM
and it's not that big a deal, I just feel like I keep having to re-explain myself over and over after being pretty clear

dork
12-18-08, 05:02 PM
Bush is wrong for fucking the guy's wife, but the guy still acted pretty immature, I think.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 05:03 PM
Bush is wrong for fucking the guy's wife, but the guy still acted pretty immature, I think.

yes. I said that originally, but the part of Bush being responsible in some way seems to be a difficult pill for some to swallow

Th0r S1mpson
12-18-08, 05:25 PM
The only alternative is to get into a pissing match about who is to blame for those dead people or begin a real discussion... again, I see little advantage. He is the President of the United States. He does not need to answer to or explain the actions of a degenerate reporter who threw a shoe merely because our reporters would like him to give them a story.

dick_grayson
12-18-08, 08:32 PM
He is the President of the United States. He does not need to answer to or explain the actions of a degenerate reporter who threw a shoe merely because our reporters would like him to give them a story.

no shit.

you have missed the point. again.

DVD Polizei
12-18-08, 08:49 PM
and it's not that big a deal, I just feel like I keep having to re-explain myself over and over after being pretty clear

We do that a lot here. :)

Th0r S1mpson
12-19-08, 12:30 AM
A shoe in the hand is worth two at the Bush?

I think it's you missing the point and it's your point. Okay. It's me. It was always me. :(

General Zod
12-21-08, 07:34 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/21/iraq.christmas/index.html

Baghdad celebrates first public Christmas

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- From a distance, it looks like an apparition: a huge multi-colored hot-air balloon floating in the Baghdad sky, bearing a large poster of Jesus Christ. Below it, an Iraqi flag.
Santa and his helpers stand under palm trees at Baghdad's first public Christmas festival.

Welcome to the first-ever public Christmas celebration in Baghdad, held Saturday and sponsored by the Iraqi Interior Ministry. Once thought to be infiltrated by death squads, the Ministry now is trying to root out sectarian violence -- as well as improve its P.R. image.

The event takes place in a public park in eastern Baghdad, ringed with security checkpoints. Interior Ministry forces deployed on surrounding rooftops peer down at the scene: a Christmas tree decorated with ornaments and tinsel; a red-costumed Santa Claus waving to the crowd, an Iraqi flag draped over his shoulders; a red-and-black-uniformed military band playing stirring martial music, not Christmas carols.

On a large stage, children dressed in costumes representing Iraq's many ethnic and religious groups -- Kurds, Turkmen, Yazidis, Christians, Arab Muslims not defined as Sunni or Shiite -- hold their hands aloft and sing "We are building Iraq!" Two young boys, a mini-policeman and a mini-soldier sporting painted-on mustaches, march stiffly and salute.

Even before I can ask Interior Ministry spokesman Major-General Abdul Karim Khalaf a question, he greets me with a big smile. "All Iraqis are Christian today!" he says.

Khalaf says sectarian and ethnic violence killed thousands of Iraqis. "Now that we have crossed that hurdle and destroyed the incubators of terrorism," he says, "and the security situation is good, we have to go back and strengthen community ties."

In spite of his claim, the spokesman is surrounded by heavy security. Yet this celebration shows that the security situation in Baghdad is improving.

Many of the people attending the Christmas celebration appear to be Muslims, with women wearing head scarves. Suad Mahmoud, holding her 16-month-old daughter, Sara, tells me she is indeed Muslim, but she's very happy to be here. "My mother's birthday also is this month, so we celebrate all occasions," she says, "especially in this lovely month of Christmas and New Year."

Father Saad Sirop Hanna, a Chaldean Christian priest, is here too. He was kidnapped by militants in 2006 and held for 28 days. He knows firsthand how difficult the lot of Christians in Iraq is but, he tells me, "We are just attesting that things are changing in Baghdad, slowly, but we hope that this change actually is real. We will wait for the future to tell us the truth about this."

He just returned from Rome. "I came back to Iraq because I believe that we can live here," he says. "I have so many [Muslim] friends and we are so happy they started to think about things from another point of view and we want to help them."

The Christmas celebration has tables loaded with cookies and cakes. Families fill plates and chat in the warm winter sun. Santa balloons hang from trees. An artist uses oil paint to create a portrait of Jesus.

In the middle of the park there's an art exhibit, the creation of 11- and 12-year-olds: six displays, each about three feet wide, constructed of cardboard and Styrofoam, filled with tiny dolls dressed like ordinary people, along with model soldiers and police. They look like model movie sets depicting everyday life in Baghdad.

Afnan, 12 years old, shows me her model called "Arresting the Terrorists."

"These are the terrorists," she tells me. "They were trying to blow up the school." In the middle of the street a dead "terrorist" sprawls on the asphalt, his bloody arm torn from his body by an explosion. Afnan tells me she used red nail polish to paint the blood. A little plastic dog stands nearby. "What is he doing?" I ask. "He looks for terrorists and searches for weapons and explosives," Afnan says.

Her mother, the children's art teacher, Raja, shows me another child's display called "Baghdad Today."

"This is a wedding," Raja explains. "Despite the terrorism, our celebrations still go ahead. This is a park, families enjoying time. And this is a market where people go shopping without fear of bombings. This is a mosque where people can pray with no fear."

:up: Very promising. I can't see how anyone can view this as anything but good.

Next year - Chanukah in Baghdad! ;)

Ky-Fi
12-21-08, 08:04 PM
:up: Very promising. I can't see how anyone can view this as anything but good.

Next year - Chanukah in Baghdad! ;)


I'd like to THINK it's good, but the phrase "Potemkin's Villages" comes to mind.

classicman2
12-31-08, 10:21 PM
U.S. military deaths in Iraq plunged by two-thirds in 2008 from the previous year, a reflection of the improving security following the U.S. military's counterinsurgency campaign and al-Qaida's slow retreat from the battlefield.

314 deaths in 2008

904 in 2007

Iraqi deaths were down 60% from the previous year.

Th0r S1mpson
12-31-08, 11:31 PM
I wonder if Obama will ever get around to crediting the surge since he now has nothing to lose in doing so. He gets to bring us home in far better circumstances as a result of it.

DVD Polizei
12-31-08, 11:46 PM
Breaking DVD Polizei News

U.S. - A popular shoe company announced sales of shoes were down almost 300% in 2008, compared to 2007, an anonymous popular shoe company spokesman announced today, who will only go by the first name, "John". Yet another sign of the worst economy since the Great Depression.

When asked what was the possible reason for the downturn, "John" replied, "Well, we're apparently having a problem with the US military. They didn't order as many shoes this year compared to last year." Unfortunately, John would not elaborate why.

When asked of the popular shoe company's next business plan, John said, "Well, I'm not going to give away our company's marketing secrets, but let's just say I hope the Palestinians--err, and Hamas more specifically--place a large order in 2009. We need repeat business." Asked why Israel, hypothetically of course, couldn't be another account for the popular shoe company. "Well, here it is," John says. "See, when you're alive, you don't buy new shoes that much. When you're dead...we'll, I guess a new order needs to be placed for new shoes for the new recruits. Now, don't they."

classicman2
01-01-09, 08:00 AM
I wonder if Obama will ever get around to crediting the surge since he now has nothing to lose in doing so. He gets to bring us home in far better circumstances as a result of it.

Of course he won't. That would be an admission that he was wrong. Politicians don't like to admit they were wrong.

You have people on this forum who deny that the surge has been highly successful - see the above post.

He will take credit for the troop withdrawal this summer, that was already scheduled months ago.

other Iraq news: The United States handed over control of the Green Zone and Saddam Hussein's presidential palace to Iraqi authorities on Thursday in a ceremonial move described by the country's prime minister as a restoration of Iraq's sovereignty.

classicman2
01-08-09, 08:46 AM
Iraqi oil revenue rose 30% to 60 billion dollars in 2008.

classicman2
01-19-09, 08:58 AM
The 'shoe thrower' is now seeking political asylum in Switzerland.

Th0r S1mpson
01-19-09, 10:40 AM
The 'shoe thrower' is now seeking political asylum in Switzerland.

It's been a while since we had troops there. What time does Bush officially stand down?

classicman2
01-31-09, 08:41 AM
Voting is underway in Iraq with tight security.

Thousands of Kurds seem to be upset about being left off of the rolls.

DVD Polizei
01-31-09, 10:38 AM
They are aware this weekend is the Superbowl. Gonna have to postpone being concerned until Monday.

dork
01-31-09, 01:14 PM
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20090131/largeimage.1a02c3ebedf14c149a08f17655a9634e.iraq_election_bag118.jpg?x=213&y=300&xc=1&yc=1&wc=353&hc=497&q=85&sig=RTThwh00zG3YpbEn0ZXfpw--
Billy Dee voted.

classicman2
02-05-09, 08:51 AM
Iraqi officials say 12 people have been killed in a suicide bombing in a Kurdish city near the Iranian border where tensions have been high since last weekend's elections.

Th0r S1mpson
02-05-09, 09:16 AM
Iraqi officials say 12 people have been killed in a suicide bombing in a Kurdish city near the Iranian border where tensions have been high since last weekend's elections.

Don't worry. These types of events will actually be noteworthy again for a week or so, following each troop withdrawal.

VinVega
02-06-09, 08:05 PM
Yahoo Story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq)

Obama weighing 23-month Iraq withdrawal option

WASHINGTON – The White House is considering at least two troop withdrawal options as it weighs a new Iraq strategy — one that would preserve President Barack Obama's campaign pledge to get all combat brigades out within 16 months and a second that would stretch it to 23 months, two officials said Friday.

A third, in-between option of 19 months is also being weighed, according to the officials, neither of whom would discuss the sensitive topic without being granted anonymity. One of the officials said the main focus appears to be on the 16-month and 23-month options; 23 months would run to the end of 2010.

Under either timeline, the U.S. would hope to leave behind a number of brigades that would be redesigned and reconfigured as multipurpose units to provide training and advising for Iraqi security forces, one official said. These brigades would be considered noncombat outfits and their presence would have to be agreed in advance by the Iraqi government, which under a deal signed late last year insisted that all U.S. forces — not just combat brigades — be out of Iraq by the end of 2011.

The concept of the stay-behind training and advising brigades has been well developed, the official said, although the details such as their size and composition are in an early stage of being sorted out.

At the White House's request, top military officials recently offered an assessment of the risks associated with the 16-, 19- and 23-month withdrawal timetables, without saying which is preferred. Obama's top two defense advisers, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen, have not yet provided a formal recommendation to the president on a timetable, an official said.

It is possible that Obama will ask for similar assessments of other withdrawal timetables before deciding on a way ahead.

McClatchy Newspapers was first to report Friday that the White House had received risk assessments associated with 16-, 19- and 23-month drawdown options. McClatchy also reported that Obama was likely to announce his strategy for Iraq by mid-March.

Obama must weigh a number of risks in deciding how fast to pull out the 14 combat brigades that are now in Iraq, including the political risk associated with abandoning his campaign pledge to get out within 16 months.

The calculation is complex and tied to other concerns: relieving stress on war-weary troops and their families; tradeoffs in escalating the war in Afghanistan, and being ready for popup crises elsewhere.

The pace and sequencing of a troop pullout will have implications for preserving recent gains in reducing violence in Iraq. An erosion of security could in turn halt progress toward political reconciliation, raising once again the prospect of widespread sectarian warfare and a new crisis for Obama.

Also at issue is how to ensure proper protection for U.S. civilians, such as State Department members of military-civilian teams supporting Iraqi economic and political rebuilding, as the U.S. military presence shrinks. That civilian work, including the role of international non-governmental groups, will arguably grow in importance as the Iraqis focus less on fighting insurgents and more on building national unity.

The fact that Obama did not immediately order his generals to begin withdrawing — as some might have expected, given his emphasis during the campaign on refocusing the U.S. military on Afghanistan — is evidence that he recognized, even before assuming office Jan. 20, the dangers of a precipitous withdrawal.

During Obama's first meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon last week, he did not mention a 16-month timeline, according to officials who were present.

U.S. military commanders in Iraq — and some senior military leaders in the Pentagon — still wonder whether the Iraqi security forces will be ready this year to handle what remains of the insurgency without substantial U.S. combat assistance. If they are not, and if a U.S. pullout accelerates, what will happen?

That question may be most important in northern Iraq, where the insurgency is still viable in the Tigris River city of Mosul and where ethnic tensions between Arabs and Kurds are high around the city of Kirkuk.

Maj. Gen. Robert Caslen, the senior U.S. commander in northern Iraq, told the AP it is too early to know how long U.S. forces will be required there, noting that conditions are fluid.

"The north provides a unique set of issues that requires the services of each and every (U.S. military) unit to its fullest extent," Caslen said. "And as long as the AQI (al-Qaida in Iraq) insurgency remains buried in places like Mosul" and until ethnic disputes are resolved in places like Kirkuk, "we will continue to be needed in this area in order to maintain the same level of risk."
You guys should have some fun with this I'm sure. Fire away.

Th0r S1mpson
02-07-09, 08:27 AM
I don't give a rat's ass about the "political risk of abandoning a 16 month plan."

Sure, some people might try to score points by saying "ha ha, didn't get them out like you said you would!" but weighed against doing it responsibly that won't hold much water for me.

16 months are 23 months are not very different at this point. Get them out right. I am sure this is how he will view it. I doubt the 16 months is any issue to him at this point because the campaign is over. As long as the boys and girls are actually on their way home, even the fringe groups won't have much of a tissy over an extra 7 months. A few will, but they should have nobody's ear. If these risk assessments come back with greater risk at 16 months than 23, he will go with 23. Which basically means Obama wants a 23 month withdrawal now because 16 doesn't work so well, but look really really hard at 16, okay? I'm okay with that.

The time has come to say goodbye to such troops numbers. And fortunately not "see you soon."

classicman2
02-07-09, 08:48 AM
Bush II

X
02-07-09, 12:26 PM
As I said in another thread in response to this question...

Did you expect him to withdraw the troops without a plan for how to do it? I think most people did from his rhetoric during the campaign. Not all, immediately of course, but the troops were expected to start coming out as soon as he got into office.

There was this thing called a "transition" during which time the plans could have been drawn up. If he needed to start looking at it only when he got into office, how could he promise they would all be out in 16 months?It appears the AP got the impression that people were being told that during the campaign as well.

The fact that Obama did not immediately order his generals to begin withdrawing — as some might have expected, given his emphasis during the campaign on refocusing the U.S. military on Afghanistan — is evidence that he recognized, even before assuming office Jan. 20, the dangers of a precipitous withdrawal.

During Obama's first meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon last week, he did not mention a 16-month timeline, according to officials who were present.I thought beginning withdrawal from Iraq immediately was a major reason why people were voting for Obama. Now it probably won't even be finished in 16 months? I'm shocked!

classicman2
02-10-09, 09:49 AM
Obama is 'reconsidering' the Bush directive barring media coverage of flag-draped coffins returning from the war zones.

Th0r S1mpson
02-10-09, 10:24 AM
Just so we're clear... Obama always talked about 16 months as being from when he took office, not 16 months from whenever he got around to actually dealing with Iraq and making plans and stuff, right?

Okay, let me rephrase that, since "always" would certainly not apply once he got into full campaign swing and started adopting Bush's policies. Early on, this was his pledge, correct? I believe it was stated right on his campaign website.

X
02-10-09, 12:02 PM
Obama is 'reconsidering' the Bush directive barring media coverage of flag-draped coffins returning from the war zones.Why? So he'll get pressure to do what he promised?

classicman2
02-11-09, 08:50 AM
A little off topic - the number of overweight soldiers has doubled since 2003.

Th0r S1mpson
02-11-09, 09:25 AM
A little off topic - the number of overweight soldiers has doubled since 2003.

I had a joke but it was in poor taste so I'm removing it. Some things don't deserve jokes.

classicman2
02-13-09, 07:38 AM
KERBALA, Iraq (Reuters) – A female suicide bomber killed 32 people and wounded 84 others south of Baghdad on Friday when she blew herself up on a major Shi'ite religious pilgrimage route, police said.

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:09 AM
Obama plans to withdraw up to 100,000 troops from Iraq by 8/2010.

They're not going to be brought home.

They're going to remain in the 'theater' for an indefinite period.

CRM114
02-27-09, 09:12 AM
I thought he was "Bush II?" ;)

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:14 AM
It is Bush II.

Bush never announced how many, but he planned troop withdrawals - leaving them in the 'theater.'

CRM114
02-27-09, 09:16 AM
Not 100,000 troops and only after public pressure and an election forced his hand.

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:22 AM
Bush was running for reelection.

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:23 AM
Speaking of public pressure - do you believe that groups like moveon.org will further force Obama's hand?

VinVega
02-27-09, 09:26 AM
It is Bush II.

Bush never announced how many, but he planned troop withdrawals - leaving them in the 'theater.'
Plus he's leaving 50,000 troops in Iraq for "terrorism combating." I don't think it's Bush II, maybe more like Bush lite since I don't think Bush would have lowered the troops to 50,000 in the foreseeable future. Certainly not what the hard core lefties and anti Iraq war want to hear though.

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:30 AM
Those hard core anti-Iraq War foks, I don't believe, will be happy with Obama's plan either.

That opposition will not come to the forefront until the 'withdrawal time' approaches. Probably they now believe he'll withdraw them all - despite what he says.

classicman2
02-27-09, 09:58 AM
McCain has just ended a speech on the Senate floor in which he endorsed the Obama troop withdrawal plan in Iraq.

caveat: As long as he doesn't succumb to the pressure that is certain to come (some already) to reduce the 50,000 number.

classicman2
02-27-09, 01:55 PM
The president already is receiving some flak from some Democrats - Pelosi, Schumer, Reid, etc. They don't seem to like that 50,000 number.

You can argue that they're simply playing to their own constituents.

Th0r S1mpson
02-27-09, 04:55 PM
The media is using big headlines to make it look like Dems are in a tissy over the plan.

Of course, actually reading the article some of the biggest criticisms are:
"When they talk about 50,000, that's a little higher number than I had anticipated"

"I don't know what the justification is for 50,000, a presence of 50,000 troops in Iraq. ... I do think that there's a need for some. "

"It has to be done responsibly, we all agree. But 50,000 is more than I would have thought."

Woowee! They're PISSED! ;)

I'm glad McCain is backing it. This is one of the few issues where his opinion might matter these days. I'm so glad he's out of campaign mode.

classicman2
02-27-09, 05:45 PM
Maybe they thought Obama Iraq's policy would be Feingold 2 instead of what it is - Bush 2? ;)

Th0r S1mpson
02-27-09, 06:20 PM
Considering Obama was calling on Bush to pull troops in a 16 month time frame when the situation was far less stable and leave it up to the Iraqis, it is clear that his objectives there have changed. It seems that, now, there is hope for something better than he previously anticipated. Or maybe he has just learned a little more about the situation. Or maybe it was largely political at the time. Whatever the case, I am in agreement with the present course and his decision on the matter is a plus for me.

classicman2
02-28-09, 10:29 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090228/ap_on_go_pr_wh/iraq_obama_s_decision

Obama moved toward commanders in Iraq decision

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama leaned heavily toward field commanders' preferences in settling a time frame for ending the war in Iraq, as he weighed the fervent desires of the anti-war community that propelled him into office and the equally strong worries of the generals commanding troops in the war zone.

"To this very day, there are some Americans who want to stay in Iraq longer, and some who want to leave faster," Obama said in making the announcement Friday, summing up a debate that has divided the country like no other since the former President George W. Bush launched the U.S. invasion six years ago.

Obama's description suggests he arrived at a split-down-the-middle compromise with one of the first and most important tasks of his young presidency.

But accounts of the process from officials in the White House, at the Pentagon and across the administration, who all requested anonymity so they could speak more candidly about behind-the-scenes discussions, show otherwise.
______________

Maybe all true, but I agree with Pat Buchanan. Politics played a big part in this decision.

Th0r S1mpson
02-28-09, 10:33 AM
Split down the middle... by listening to the commanders on the ground. That's funny.

NOBODY has ever said they "want to stay in Iraq longer." :lol:

John "100 Years of War" McCain backs this plan, which should make that clear enough. This is the course we would have followed whether the current president were Obama, McCain, or George W Bush.

Th0r S1mpson
02-28-09, 10:58 AM
End to Baghdad's 'dark era': Nightclubs reopen
Bars in Abu Nawas Street are popular again — even with U.S. troops

BAGHDAD - The American soldier stepped out of the Baghdad nightclub. In one hand, he clutched his weapon. In the other, a green can of Tuborg beer. He took a sip and walked over to two comrades, dressed as he was in camouflage and combat gear.

Inside the club Thursday night, U.S. soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division ogled young Iraqi women who appeared to be prostitutes gyrating to Arabic pop music. A singer crooned soulfully through scratchy speakers to the raucous, pulsating beat — an action that Islamic extremists have deemed punishable by beheading.

Twenty minutes later, several drunk men coaxed an American soldier to dance. He awkwardly shuffled his feet, wearing night-vision equipment and a radio, joining the women and boisterous young men in an Arabic chain dance around tables covered with empty beer bottles.

For most of the past six years, U.S. troops and other Westerners in Baghdad have barricaded themselves behind blast walls and traveled the streets in armored cars, fearing attack or capture. Time spent in what Americans call the Red Zone — all of the capital except for a protected part of central Baghdad — invited and often brought calamity. U.S. troops do not leave their bases or outposts unless they are on duty.

The soldiers on Abu Nawas Street said they were visiting the club to talk to the manager about security, but they were socializing publicly with Iraqis in a way that was unimaginable even a few months ago. The scene reflected the increasing sense of security in the capital and many parts of Iraq, but it was impossible to know how many U.S. soldiers in Baghdad have the opportunity or the inclination to drink a beer while on patrol, apparently in violation of rules banning alcohol consumption in combat zones.

'They buy drinks and pay for them'
A U.S. military spokesman, responding to a query about the soldiers, was incredulous. "Just so I understand this clearly, you saw U.S. soldiers at a nightclub in downtown Baghdad outside of the Green Zone in uniform drinking and dancing?" asked Tech. Sgt. Chris Stagner.

Club manager Salah Hassan said Thursday's visit was not exceptional. "The Americans come here four or five times a week," he said. "They buy drinks and pay for them."

Others at the club said the soldiers had been there more than once. "I love the Americans," said Amal Saad, a petite young woman with blue contact lenses and thick red lipstick. "I like it when they come here. I feel so safe."

"Many times, I went with them in their Humvees," she added. "They took me to shops and bought me chocolates and gifts."

.........

A few minutes later, Hassan became nervous about discussing the visits by U.S. soldiers. He asked that the name of his nightclub not be mentioned, even though it was written on a signboard outside in English. "The Americans will come and shut me down," he said.

At a club next door, the patrons were too drunk to care about threats. Each had paid a $45 entrance fee — a princely sum for many Iraqis — to hear Adeeba, one of the nation's most famous singers. The dark-haired diva didn't disappoint.

She blew kisses to the all-male audience, and began:

Believe me, I did not get bored of you.

My soul is a pigeon in your house.

Believe me.

Handfuls of cash
A dancer wearing a tight red-and-black outfit gyrated across the floor, as the audience erupted in screams. Young men, some in fashionable jackets, wiggled their hips and waved pink tissues. One man went up to the balcony and threw handfuls of cash that floated down toward Adeeba and her five-man band.

Adeeba, who like most Iraqi singers uses only her first name, returned two months ago from Bahrain — after fleeing Iraq three years ago. "There was no work and if anyone was caught singing, they would behead her," she said.

She was encouraged to return because of the improvements in security and also because "living outside my country killed me." She had also heard that the nightclubs had reopened.

"The dark era is over," she said with confidence.

Her audience agreed.

"Listening to her made me feel the security," said Muntader Khazal, 18, who sells clothes.

"We never expected that such a day will come in Iraq," gushed his friend Hussein Sheba, 17.

Meanwhile, at Hassan's nightclub, the American soldier danced, arm in arm, with his new Iraqi friends.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29439989/

I snipped a bunch from the middle. Link for those who want to read it all.

This is sounding more and more like a post-war period, at least in this portion of the country. Things get a little raucous and harder to control when the boys are bored. It is encouraging.

classicman2
03-02-09, 08:36 AM
An Iraqi judge has given death sentences to three former officials in Saddam Hussein's regime for slayings and abuses against Shiites a decade ago.

The defendants include Hassan al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali," for ordering poison gas attacks in the 1980s.

This is Chemical Ali's third death sentence for brutalities during Saddam's rule.
------------

I thought they had already hanged him.

Th0r S1mpson
03-02-09, 11:44 AM
I thought he was already gone too.

How is that deck of cards looking today, any way?

classicman2
03-08-09, 08:58 AM
BAGHDAD – The U.S. military has announced that 12,000 American and 4,000 British troops will leave Iraq by September.

Maj. Gen. David Perkins says that will reduce U.S. combat power from 14 brigades to 12 brigades. He also said Sunday that the U.S. is turning over more facilities to the Iraqi military as part of the drawdown.

classicman2
03-10-09, 08:57 AM
A suicide bomber struck tribal leaders touring a market in a Sunni area west of Baghdad on Tuesday, killing as many as 33 people in the second major attack in the capital area in two days.

The violence in Iraq is escalating. Could this be a test of our new president's resolve?

Th0r S1mpson
03-10-09, 09:50 AM
I don't call two attacks in two days an "escalation." Not that I am arguing, but I would at least need a chart, possibly a graph, to indicate a trend. I think an escalation is likely.

classicman2
03-10-09, 12:36 PM
Well - if you need a chart or a graph you need to contact wendersfan. :lol:

classicman2
03-11-09, 08:48 AM
Tom Ricks (The Washington Post) was on Morning Joe talking about Iraq this morning.

I put very little stock in what Ricks says, because he's demonstrated that he is frequently wrong about Iraq.

He did say he was surprised that when Obama made his 180 degree turn on Iraq that he expected much more questioning by the media and the public - campaign: withdraw a brigade a month month to..........................

CharlieK
03-11-09, 04:23 PM
I put very little stock in what Ricks says, because he's demonstrated that he is frequently wrong about Iraq.
What has he been wrong about exactly? I don't read him regularly, but liked his books 'Fiasco' and 'Gamble'.

classicman2
03-12-09, 08:47 AM
BAGHDAD – The Iraqi journalist who threw shoes at then-President George W. Bush was convicted Thursday of assaulting a foreign leader and sentenced to three years in prison, lawyers said. He shouted "long live Iraq" when the sentence was read.

dick_grayson
03-12-09, 09:27 AM
3 years seems right to me.

classicman2
03-12-09, 09:40 AM
It seems a little too much.

Th0r S1mpson
03-12-09, 10:09 AM
I would have settled for 1 year and 3 toes.

General Zod
03-12-09, 10:23 AM
Considering he would have likely been killed on the spot if Saddam had still been in power and he threw his shoes at him.. I think he should consider himself pretty lucky.

I'm not sure what prison is like there but I doubt it's what we consider prison here.

classicman2
03-12-09, 10:29 AM
I've changed my mind on his sentence.

After the statement 'long live Iraq,' I believe he should have been immediately hanged. ;)

Dragon Fly
03-12-09, 11:16 AM
Guy's lucky to get three years. He could have easily been put down on the spot for what he did. Three years is high for throwing a shoe, but people in that region have been put to death for far less.

dick_grayson
03-12-09, 11:20 AM
I don't really consider it a pre/post Saddam issue. I think that, especially as a reporter, throwing a shoe at someone is a pretty big deal and a stiff punishment (no harm) is appropriate. Regardless of motive, locale....etc., throwing a shoe at a foreign leader shouldn't be tolerated.

Th0r S1mpson
03-12-09, 11:33 AM
I don't really consider it a pre/post Saddam issue. I think that, especially as a reporter, throwing a shoe at someone is a pretty big deal and a stiff punishment (no harm) is appropriate. Regardless of motive, locale....etc., throwing a shoe at a foreign leader shouldn't be tolerated.

Yeah, but it was Bush.

dick_grayson
03-12-09, 12:16 PM
Yeah, but it was Bush.

doesn't matter

classicman2
03-13-09, 10:05 AM
Shiite clerics on Friday called for the release of the Iraqi journalist sentenced to three years in prison for throwing his shoes at George W. Bush.

classicman2
03-16-09, 01:16 PM
The U. S. has shot down an Iranian drone over Iraq today.

X
03-16-09, 01:33 PM
The U. S. has shot down an Iranian drone over Iraq today.Today? I thought it was last month. Or is there another one? Because that news was on Drudge days ago.

By the way, very interesting poll from Iraq...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1060a1IraqWhereThingsStand.pdf

Page 11 sure shows a lot of support for what that moron Biden was proposing.

classicman2
03-16-09, 01:41 PM
I saw it on MSNBC about 45 minutes ago.

It was on (what do they call it) the banner that streams across the bottom of the screen.

X
03-16-09, 01:46 PM
I saw it discussed on two cable news stations today too but it appeared they were talking about this:

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/03/us-jet-shoots-d.html

classicman2
03-16-09, 03:17 PM
Drudge is kind of like a fortune teller. People only remember the times he's right. ;)

X
03-16-09, 03:22 PM
Drudge is kind of like a fortune teller. People only remember the times he's right. ;)Well, it wasn't a story he reported, just a link to the original story.

grundle
03-21-09, 07:30 PM
Now that Bush is out of the White House, the bogus "anti-war" protestors have decided that they aren't really against the war after all.


http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_11958430

After six years, peace vigil ends

By Lanz Christian Ba๑es/Times-Herald staff writer

03/20/2009 08:13:27 AM PDT

BENICIA - About 40 anti-war protesters held what they said would be their final rally Thursday, six years after the United States-led invasion began against Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Patricia Kneisler, who has led the Benicia Peace Vigil for five of the last six years of the conflict, said the weekly demonstrations on First Street and Military began to subside after President Barack Obama's election in November.

"People are really conflicted now," Kneisler said, explaining how many of the demonstrators felt they should not be protesting the war while Obama established his administration.

The Benicia Peace Vigil was begun by a group led by Danika Carter Cavulich, a member of the Solano Peace and Justice Coalition, with its first protest coinciding with the day the first bombs fell on Iraq.

Attendance has dramatically fallen from an initial group of dozens of people to, at one point, no one showing for the Thursday afternoon's rally.

In contrast to the recent sparse turnouts, about 40 de-monstators came to the vigil's final hurrah, which included balloons with peace signs, pickets and cheers as passing vehicles honked their horns in support.

RedBird Tate, who has lived in Benicia for 10 years, was among those who believes the protests should have ended when Obama was sworn in as president.

"Obama is my hope. He's going to kick butt and take names," Tate said, holding a sign and an effigy of former President George W. Bush, complete with faux flames.

Tate was also pleased by the young people who attended the rally. Among these were about a dozen students from a social justice class at Vallejo's St. Patrick- St. Vincent High School.

"People can resolve things in peaceful ways," junior Camille Enriquez, 16, said.

The students were allowed to choose a social justice issue, ranging from abortion to war, and then protest it. Several groups within the class chose to protest the war.

"We think it's unjust and unjustified," Dana Maccarone, 16, also a junior.

Thursday's final rally drew a boisterous crowd from throughout the North and East Bay, ranging from nearby Vallejo and Napa to Novato and Walnut Creek.

"We stand for peaceful resolution, not aggression," said Sandy Rappy, 68, of the Walnut Creek group Grandparents for Peace and Justice.

Based at Rossmoor Retirement Center in Walnut Creek, the group also holds regular demonstrations against war.

Though motorists and passing pedestrians generally supported the activities of the demonstrators, some did not.

On the opposite corner of the demonstration is Veterans Memorial Hall, where a handful of counter-protesters waved American flags and criticized the peace activists and their decision to stop the vigil.

"They should stay until the troops come home," said one flag-waving Benicia man, who declined not to be named.

classicman2
03-23-09, 09:02 AM
A bomb at a west Baghdad bus terminal killed nine people and wounded 23 on Monday, Iraqi police said, the second bomb attack in the predominantly Sunni Arab Abu Ghraib district this month.
----------------

The President said on 60 Minutes that Iraq was the least of our problems.

CharlieK
03-23-09, 01:48 PM
The President said on 60 Minutes that Iraq was the least of our problems. Here's a little context for what he said. I'm quite surprised you didn't provide it yourself.

Obama:You know, sometimes my team-- talks about the fact that if-- if you had said to us a year ago that-- the least of my problems would be Iraq, which is still a pretty serious problem-- I don't think anybody would have believed it. But-- but we've got a lot on our plate. And-- a lot of difficult decisions that we're going to have to make.

dick_grayson
03-23-09, 01:56 PM
Now that Bush is out of the White House, the bogus "anti-war" protestors have decided that they aren't really against the war after all.


http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_11958430

After six years, peace vigil ends

By Lanz Christian Ba๑es/Times-Herald staff writer

03/20/2009 08:13:27 AM PDT

BENICIA - About 40 anti-war protesters held what they said would be their final rally Thursday, six years after the United States-led invasion began against Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Patricia Kneisler, who has led the Benicia Peace Vigil for five of the last six years of the conflict, said the weekly demonstrations on First Street and Military began to subside after President Barack Obama's election in November.

"People are really conflicted now," Kneisler said, explaining how many of the demonstrators felt they should not be protesting the war while Obama established his administration.

The Benicia Peace Vigil was begun by a group led by Danika Carter Cavulich, a member of the Solano Peace and Justice Coalition, with its first protest coinciding with the day the first bombs fell on Iraq.

Attendance has dramatically fallen from an initial group of dozens of people to, at one point, no one showing for the Thursday afternoon's rally.

In contrast to the recent sparse turnouts, about 40 de-monstators came to the vigil's final hurrah, which included balloons with peace signs, pickets and cheers as passing vehicles honked their horns in support.

RedBird Tate, who has lived in Benicia for 10 years, was among those who believes the protests should have ended when Obama was sworn in as president.

"Obama is my hope. He's going to kick butt and take names," Tate said, holding a sign and an effigy of former President George W. Bush, complete with faux flames.

Tate was also pleased by the young people who attended the rally. Among these were about a dozen students from a social justice class at Vallejo's St. Patrick- St. Vincent High School.

"People can resolve things in peaceful ways," junior Camille Enriquez, 16, said.

The students were allowed to choose a social justice issue, ranging from abortion to war, and then protest it. Several groups within the class chose to protest the war.

"We think it's unjust and unjustified," Dana Maccarone, 16, also a junior.

Thursday's final rally drew a boisterous crowd from throughout the North and East Bay, ranging from nearby Vallejo and Napa to Novato and Walnut Creek.

"We stand for peaceful resolution, not aggression," said Sandy Rappy, 68, of the Walnut Creek group Grandparents for Peace and Justice.

Based at Rossmoor Retirement Center in Walnut Creek, the group also holds regular demonstrations against war.

Though motorists and passing pedestrians generally supported the activities of the demonstrators, some did not.

On the opposite corner of the demonstration is Veterans Memorial Hall, where a handful of counter-protesters waved American flags and criticized the peace activists and their decision to stop the vigil.

"They should stay until the troops come home," said one flag-waving Benicia man, who declined not to be named.

40 people = all?

classicman2
05-06-09, 09:34 AM
Shimon Peres, President of Israel, on Morning Joe. 'The Middle East is a safe place since the invasion of Iraq.'

classicman2
05-06-09, 09:34 AM
Shimon Peres, President of Israel, on Morning Joe. 'The Middle East is a safer place since the invasion of Iraq.'

Sorraffy
05-07-09, 02:02 AM
with the majority of it's violence concentrated in one place I image it would be.

classicman2
05-13-09, 09:12 AM
I wonder if the Senate Democrats will vote against the Obama supplemental for Iraq?

I wonder if the Senate Republicans will vote for the Obama supplemental for Iraq?

classicman2
06-02-09, 09:28 AM
Civilian deaths in Iraq in April, 2009, were the lowest since 2003.

Jason
06-02-09, 05:36 PM
Civilian deaths in Iraq in April, 2009, were the lowest since 2003.

We're turning a corner!

Ky-Fi
06-02-09, 06:40 PM
Civilian deaths in Iraq in April, 2009, were the lowest since 2003.

That would have been a great selling point for the war back in 2003: "I promise you that after 6 years of combat, we'll be able to get civilian casualties down to where they are now."

General Zod
06-02-09, 07:04 PM
Civilian deaths in Iraq in April, 2009, were the lowest since 2003.

Are these deaths we caused or deaths caused by them killing each other?

I just read a report the other day about someone's son who was killed because someone who didn't like him told someone else he was working for the Americans so his "friends" killed him. Is that really our fault? I'm thinking if it wasn't us it would be someone or something else.

classicman2
06-26-09, 09:15 AM
A bomb killed at least 13 people and wounded 45 when it exploded in an industrial area of Baghdad on Friday, just four days before U.S. combat troops are due to withdraw from Iraqi cities and towns

CharlieK
06-30-09, 07:41 PM
I figured I'd post this bit of news for posterity in this thread since it seems like kind of a big deal. Will attacks go up because US troops aren't around, or will they go down because US troops aren't around? Time will tell.


U.S. Completes Pullout of Combat Forces From Iraq Cities

BAGHDAD — Iraq officially took control of its fate Tuesday as the U.S. pulled its combat troops out of Baghdad and other cities and towns, handing over security responsibilities to Iraqi forces.

The withdrawal completed the Status of Forces agreement signed last November, and touched off celebrations in Baghdad and other cities.

"It is a day when Iraqis celebrate as they continue to move towards exercising their full sovereignty," U.S. Commanding General Ray Odierno told FOX News. "The Iraqi people should be very proud of the dedication, progress, and sacrifice of the Iraqi security forces and the government of Iraq."

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki declared Tuesday to be "National Sovereignty Day," complete with a military parade to display to Iraqis — and a still stubborn insurgency — its ability to maintain order in a nation ravaged by six years of war.

"This day, which we consider a national celebration, is an achievement made by all Iraqis," al-Maliki said in a televised speech.

"Our incomplete sovereignty and the presence of foreign troops is the most serious legacy we have inherited (from Saddam). Those who think that Iraqis are unable to defend their country are committing a fatal mistake," he said.

But the dangers facing Iraq were brought into stark focus after a car bomb exploded on Tuesday, killing at least 24 people in the city of Kirkuk. On Monday U.S. military officials reported that four American soldiers were killed in combat on the eve of the withdrawal.

Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529510,00.html)

Hank Ringworm
06-30-09, 09:17 PM
Very big deal. But I won't get excited for another few months: ball's in the Iraqis' court, but I don't know enough to be confident that they can play the game.

Th0r S1mpson
09-22-09, 12:47 AM
Back when we were hearing about that Iraq place, we were hearing a lot about a guy named Muqtada Al Sadr. Anyone know what's up with that guy lately? Why so quiet? Can't he at least throw a shoe or something to get back on CNN?

Pharoh
09-22-09, 09:22 AM
Back when we were hearing about that Iraq place, we were hearing a lot about a guy named Muqtada Al Sadr. Anyone know what's up with that guy lately? Why so quiet? Can't he at least throw a shoe or something to get back on CNN?


He has been accused of supporting the Houthis by Saleh since he has offered to mediate in the war.

Other than that, growing his power base and doing what his handlers in Iran tell him to do.

:shrug:

classicman2
09-22-09, 09:41 AM
Do you really believe that Iran has that much influence with Al Sadr?

Pharoh
09-22-09, 12:03 PM
Do you really believe that Iran has that much influence with Al Sadr?

Yes, I do. At the very least, he coordinates with the Iranian regime on all important matters.

classicman2
09-22-09, 12:10 PM
I believed that too, but I heard an analyst the other day who seemed to minimize the influence of Iran on Al Sadr.

It seemed as if he were saying that Al Sadr is too much of an 'individuallist' to take orders from anyone.

classicman2
12-12-09, 10:38 AM
Iraq, emerging from the shadow of war, expects to boost its oil output to rival the level of top producer Saudi Arabia after awarding some of its most attractive oilfields to global oil companies this week.

By the end on Saturday of a two-day bidding round for 10 oil contracts -- the second auction since the 2003 U.S. invasion -- Iraq had received pledges from oil firms to boost its output by 4.765 million barrels per day, almost double its current output.

If all deals from a first auction in June, the second this weekend and others being negotiated are added to national production, Iraq will have a capacity of 12 million barrels per day, overtaking Russia and challenging Saudi Arabia's 12.5 million bpd, Oil Minister Hussain al-Shahristani said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091212/ts_nm/us_iraq_oil

X
12-12-09, 11:11 AM
Unfortunately, Iraq is still having trouble selling oil to the big players due to security concerns and to anyone in several areas. But it looks good if security is improved and that's a real incentive to improve security.

Iraq hails oil auction; major firms steer clear

By SINAN SALAHEDDIN
The Associated Press
Saturday, December 12, 2009; 10:32 AM

BAGHDAD -- Iraq's oil minister on Saturday began counting the money even before the first wells were drilled, dubbing the country's second post-war oil auction a triumph, despite caution from international oil companies.

World oil players steered largely clear of anything but Iraq's cheapest and safest of the reserves in the Middle East's last major oil bonanza.

The two-day licensing round, which ended Saturday, saw deals on only seven of the 15 fields on offer. Of those, four were in the stable southern Shiite heartland while two in the north went to the only company that expressed an interest: Angola's Sonogal. The last was in central Iraq, in a province where violence has remained at a minimum.

The auction was key for Iraq. Its international licensing round in June - the first in over three decades - largely failed with only one giant field awarded out of eight offered. The hope was for a better showing this time with deals that could help Iraq rebuild after the 2003 U.S.-led war that many say compounded decades of economic neglect and mismanagement under Saddam Hussein's regime.

But a cloud hung over the auction in the heavily fortified Oil Ministry. It came days after bombings Tuesday around Baghdad killed at least 127 people in a sobering reminder of the challenges the Baghdad government faces with the looming withdrawal of U.S. forces from the country.

"It is a big victory for Iraq," Oil Minister Hussain al-Shahristani told reporters after the final field was auctioned. "It is a big achievement for Iraq to win such contracts at the current prices."

Al-Shahristani, who has staked both his and Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's political future on promises of boosting oil output, said that the deals signed at this round, along with the June auction, will help raise production to 12 million barrels per day within six years.

In addition, "at the current world oil prices, the contracts (awarded) in the two bidding rounds will bring in $200 billion per year," he said.

It may be a case of wishful thinking.

Iraq has not been able to raise output to even close to pre-2003 levels, and is limping along at roughly 2.5 million barrels per day.

It exports between 1.8 and 2 million barrels a day on a given month, and is not even included in the output restrictions to which the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries' members are supposed to be bound. Moreover, it relies on oil revenue for 90 percent of its government budget, leaving it in a precarious position if oil prices collapse as they did last year.

None of the U.S. supermajors like Exxon Mobil Corp. or Chevron submitted bids, leaving only Occidental to make one failed bid on the auction's first day.

"We just decided not to bid," Richard C. Vierbuchen, president of Exxon Mobil Upstream Ventures (West) Ltd., told The Associated Press. He did not elaborate.

Companies such as Exxon Mobil and BP are crucial for their technical know-how, which analysts say trumps that of some Russian or Chinese companies that have made aggressive inroads in Iraq.

The auction offered oil companies their biggest slice of Iraq's oil yet, roughly one-third of its 115 billion barrels in reserves.

With a lesson learned from the June event, Iraq appeared to be more flexible in its terms, giving the companies more operational control over the fields while still focusing on heavily on the price it was willing to pay them for each barrel produced.

Companies must accept 20-year service contracts and receive a flat fee per barrel produced for their services instead of production-sharing contracts, which are much more lucrative.

Success is vital for Iraq's leaders.

Political infighting has not only delayed passage of a national oil law, but it has meant that the Baghdad government can't even agree with the provincial government in the semiautonomous Kurdistan region over who controls oil rights there. Similarly, with elections coming up in March, al-Maliki and al-Shahristani, who is on the same ticket, need some political capital to ward off challenges from other top Shiite political leaders.

Debate on the oil law - which Washington had called a "benchmark" for political progress in Iraq - has been delayed until the new parliament is seated after the election.

The latest auction may, at best, be a step in the right direction - a face-saving event that officials can say saw the two biggest fields snapped up, as well as some others in the north that analysts thought would fall victim to Iraq's delicate political balancing act.

On Saturday Russian private oil giant Lukoil teamed up with Norway's Statoil ASA to snatch the crown jewel of the auction, the 12.88 billion barrel West Qurna Phase 2 field in southern Iraq. The field was a coup for Lukoil, representing the fulfillment of a contract they had won in 1997 under Saddam, only to see the dictator rescind the deal five years later.

They beat out three other consortiums led by Britain's BP PLC, France's Total SA and Malaysia's state-run Petronas, nabbing the field with an offer to accept $1.15 per barrel of oil produced and to raise output to 1.8 million barrels per day in 13 years, prevailed. That is more than twice the targeted daily output set by Iraq.

"We are very happy today," said Lukoil representative Andrey Kuzyaev.

Deals were also reached on Gharraf, a small southern field that went to a Petronas-led consortium that included Japex, while Russia's Gazprom claimed a small central Iraqi field. The final field, in the north, went to Sonogal, which earlier in the day did an about-face and accepted Iraq's terms on another small neighboring field near restive Mosul.

Even Gharraf's winners, however, appeared concerned despite its location in the south.

"It depends on the security situation," Katsuo Suzuki, Japex's vice president, said when asked when the companies would begin work. "We are in contact with several security companies to discuss the security situations and analyze carefully the situation to decide our program."

Three other central Iraqi fields were withdrawn from the bidding and Iraq said it would develop those alone.

A day earlier, a consortium led by Shell and Petronas won the rights to develop Majnoon, a 12.5 billion barrel southern field on which Total had bid. The French supermajor Total had eyed the field hungrily, also on the back of an earlier contract under Saddam that was also canceled.

A second major southern field was awarded Friday. Afterwards, however, bidding tapered off and companies showing no interest in five fields offered in volatile eastern Iraq or near Baghdad.

Those fields were also withdrawn, and will have to be developed by Iraq

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/12/AR2009121200518.html

RoyalTea
12-30-09, 03:46 PM
"I opposed this war [Iraq] in 2002. I will bring this war to an end in 2009. It is time to bring our troops home." - Barack Obama, February 2008 (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/barack_obamas_wisconsin_victor.html)

classicman2
03-08-10, 09:02 AM
The Iraqis held their election yesterday. There was quite a bit of violence. That was to be expected. About 55% of the Iraqis voted. The violence death toll was 38.

Malaki's principal platform was to take credit in bringing stability to Iraq. Gen. Petraeus had nothing to do with it. The surge was Maliki's idea. ;)

What, again, is the 'firm' date for all U. S. troop withdrawal from Iraq?

Th0r S1mpson
03-08-10, 09:28 AM
What, again, is the 'firm' date for all U. S. troop withdrawal from Iraq?

Precisely 6-9 months after Gitmo closes. ;)

I remember Obama saying end of August for combat troops. That may have changed slightly but I haven't heard any large deviation.

There were to be 30-50K still there at that point.

I forget the deadline for all US Troops that the Iraqis set, which is the only firm one I know of. End of next year perhaps.

classicman2
03-08-10, 09:51 AM
Under a security agreement that entered into force at the beginning of 2009, U.S. troops redeployed out of cities and towns by the end of last June. By the end of August of this year combat operations are due to end, and all troops are scheduled to withdraw from the country by the end of 2011.

Obama says 'it's on schedule.'

CRM114
03-08-10, 10:03 AM
50K troops will remain as of August, I believe. The current number is 90K.

X
03-08-10, 11:14 AM
I heard that just yesterday Iraqi officials were restating their right to ask American troops to stay longer if necessary. Their ambassador to the U.S. said that's unlikely to happen, but it's still an option if there's continued post-election violence.

Now that Iraq is a big success of the Obama Administration (according to Biden), would we be unwilling to support the government with troops if we're asked?