If not, then who would you rank lower than Liefeld? Beause that is a pretty big insult.
slop101
02-07-08, 11:32 AM
He's probably the worst successful comic book artist. There are plenty of artists as bad, or worse (if that's possible), who don't have the name-recognition he does.
starseed1981
02-07-08, 11:33 AM
Yes. Without a doubt.
Unfortunatley though, he is also one of the nicest people you can ever meet in person. Its a yin-yang thing.
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
slop101
02-07-08, 12:36 PM
Unfortunatley though, he is also one of the nicest people you can ever meet in person. Its a yin-yang thing.Yeah, I met him once too (not at a con), and he was super nice. That's usually how it works: talented people are weird eccentrics who are usually dicks, and untalented people are usually nice. I met a couple guys from Linkin Park once, they were super nice too...
fujishig
02-07-08, 12:57 PM
I dunno, I liked his art when he was doing New Mutants and early X-force. Surprisingly he hasn't grown through his weaknesses (mainly feet, squinty eyes, too many action lines and that whole arms outstretched pose that he overuses), but he's still far from the worst I've ever seen. In fact, he had a whole studio that aped his style, but were all (at the time) slightly worse than him, back when Image first started.
I couldn't stand Roger Cruz for a long, long time... I think he's gotten better, but he used to ape so many different styles that it was distracting.
Chris Bachalo is frustrating... his static covers are great, he can definitely draw, and he can tell a coherent story... at least, he used to be able to. Ever since Steampunk, I don't think I've seen art from him that is completely comprehensible... I just can't follow the action from frame to frame. What the heck happened to his sequential storytelling skills? He's not the worst artist either, just wanted to mention him.
Rogue588
02-07-08, 04:38 PM
He's probably the worst successful comic book artist.Yeah, i'll subscribe to this. Though, I remember liking his art on Hawk & Dove..
fujishig
02-07-08, 05:06 PM
I don't even think he's the worst artist among the Image founders (Valentino is serviceable, and I liked Guardians of the Galaxy, but I still preferred Rob's art). He is the worst at being on time, though. I think even Portacio's perennially late Wetworks came out with more issues than Youngblood, which was the first Image issue to come out.
He is the worst comic book artist to ever get his own Levi's commercial.
yecul
02-07-08, 08:30 PM
Thanks for posting that link. Good stuff.
zombiezilla
02-07-08, 09:26 PM
Wow. Just...wow. I used to think that Rob's art was, maybe, an aquired taste, as I never understood all the "hating" I perceived to be going on at his expense. Now I realize that his art does, indeed, suck shit through a straw, to put a not-too-fine point on it. I guess it was the "Marvel Zombie" in me (nothing at all to do with the recent series, you youngsters) which bought and enjoyed alot of his Marvel stuff, while forgiving the hideous flaws. His art really does, for the most part SUCK. Damn!
boredsilly
02-07-08, 11:11 PM
He's probably the worst successful comic book artist. There are plenty of artists as bad, or worse (if that's possible), who don't have the name-recognition he does.
This is close to how I feel.
I can't help but wonder though, how he became so popular in the first place? I mean his artwork, before the major backlash, was not only enjoyed but sought after by the masses. And everyone who liked his books weren't 12 year old boys.
So while his art might not be great in retrospect, you can't deny there was something to it.
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
that link is spectacular.
i hated his work from the first moment i saw it.
making it worse is the first thing i saw was his issue as the first issue replacing todd macfarlane.
fumanstan
02-08-08, 01:22 AM
Yeah, I met him once too (not at a con), and he was super nice. That's usually how it works: talented people are weird eccentrics who are usually dicks, and untalented people are usually nice. I met a couple guys from Linkin Park once, they were super nice too...
Which refutes your whole notion since Linkin Park is great :)
I showed that link to a few coworkers because oddly enough, we've had the discussion on Liefeld before and they were cracking up. I thought he was OK during his early Marvel days, since I enjoyed a lot of those story arcs, but looking at that site and the flaws, I can see the hate.
dadaluholla
02-08-08, 08:41 AM
Maybe Liefeld was popular back then because his look was kinda different from what we were used to seeing at the time? I know I was CRAZY about that end run of New Mutants/early X-force. I was even drawing my own comic characters with huge shoulderpads and millions of pouchs!!
I don't think I really turned on Rob until the whole Heroes Reborn crap. His Captain America was a complete disgrace, and then I started looking back at Cable, Youngblood, etc. and realized how screwy it really was.
fujishig
02-08-08, 01:23 PM
that link is spectacular.
i hated his work from the first moment i saw it.
making it worse is the first thing i saw was his issue as the first issue replacing todd macfarlane.
When did he replace Todd? Are you talking about the Spiderman/X-Force crossover? Or are you thinking of Larsen or something?
MartinBlank
02-08-08, 04:38 PM
I thought Macfarlane just inked for him on his New Mutants covers?
whotony
02-08-08, 04:40 PM
heh your right i was thinking of larsen.
he was just as bad as or worse then liefeld.
zombiezilla
02-08-08, 04:50 PM
Man, what were we all smokin' back then? Those guys all really were pretty sad. Even McF had some lousy art, though occasionally some gems. Spider-man was pretty cool & fun on his run, until the comic titled just "Spider-Man" started, then it was just too over-the-top.
[edit] Oh, and don't get me started on the veritable suckfest that Spawn has ALWAYS been. Cool toys, crappy comics. Todd has no idea about how to tell a story.
fujishig
02-08-08, 05:03 PM
I think at the time, they introduced a lot of splash pages and dynamic shots, which brought an excitement to comics, if not a good grasp of anatomy or storytelling. Then a lot of other artists aped their style, and it became more commonplace. Heck, I look at some of the old Legion of Superheroes costumes from back in the day and wonder why I thought they were so cool.
calhoun07
02-08-08, 11:32 PM
Compared to his abilities and what he's paid for them, yes.
did that cap america drawing appear in an actual comic.
thats the worst thing i have evver seen. that should have been number one on that list.
Nick Danger
02-09-08, 08:47 AM
I hated Liefeld's art from the start. His art, and that of all of his imitators, were the end of superhero comics for me.
Looking back, I'm not sure what to think about him. On one hand, if someone were giving me buckets of money to do something suddenly fashionable, I'd ride that fad until it ended. On the other hand, I have a lot more respect for people who use the opportunity to improve themselves. Mick Jagger took his rock star money and got an MBA. It looks like Liefeld never even went to a night class on figure drawing from life.
Mrs Danger points out that most guys who are mediocre artists can still draw women's breasts really well. She says that it's because most guys pay a lot of attention to breasts. Her job as an art instructor is to get students to pay that much attention to everything else. Liefeld can't draw women's breasts, but he is very good at sexy, well-drawn, anatomically correct, man butts.
boredsilly
02-09-08, 09:28 AM
I dig that Savage Dragon cover a lot. So badass. I want to read that comic now!...or make love to it, I haven't decided. -wink-
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
:lol: I got the hiccups I laughed so hard at that.
And I still have some of those comics. Sad that I never noticed truly how bad he was. I chalked it up to not caring for his style. But the whole "can't draw a foot" is hilarious when pointed out.
calhoun07
02-09-08, 11:18 AM
:lol: I got the hiccups I laughed so hard at that.
That whole site is pretty darn funny.
This had tears running down my eyes....
http://progressiveboink.com/archive/seagal.html
It's totally off topic...not comic book related at all...
And it also lead me to this...
http://www.amazon.com/Mojo-Priest-Steven-Seagal/dp/B000FDEUHG/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202573787&sr=8-3
With songs like "Talk to My Ass" and "Hoochie Koochie Man" how can you go wrong?
movieguru
02-09-08, 11:28 AM
His art was new and innovative at the time. Same with McFarlane. Styles and tastes change over time. People will be saying the same thing about artists of today 15 years from now. As time passes things that were in style and popular in the present will look silly when looking back. Parachute pants, leg warmers, afros, mullets, mini skirts, etc. were in style at one time but look dumb now.
calhoun07
02-09-08, 12:42 PM
His art was new and innovative at the time. Same with McFarlane. Styles and tastes change over time. People will be saying the same thing about artists of today 15 years from now. As time passes things that were in style and popular in the present will look silly when looking back. Parachute pants, leg warmers, afros, mullets, mini skirts, etc. were in style at one time but look dumb now.
Yet Jack Kirby is still highly regarded because he knew how to DRAW.
Fad art is laughable 15 years down the road, but great art holds value for a lot longer.
There is a lot of stuff from when I was a kid that looked cool then but I can see it sucked...it sucks now and, you know what, it really did suck back then too. I was just not well developed enough to see it for myself. Liefeld sucked then too...yeah, he did. Just because it sold a lot of comics doesn't mean people thought it was great art.
ivelostr2
02-09-08, 03:49 PM
I remember liking Liefeld but noticing the feet and laughing abou them, but looking at that site, his art is really terrible...back on topic though, I can't read anything by Samm Keith, I hated his art when i was a kid, and I hate it now, I know he has a fan following, but I just don't get it...
His art was new and innovative at the time. Same with McFarlane. Styles and tastes change over time. People will be saying the same thing about artists of today 15 years from now. As time passes things that were in style and popular in the present will look silly when looking back. Parachute pants, leg warmers, afros, mullets, mini skirts, etc. were in style at one time but look dumb now.
It was new and different at the time. It was all jagged and full of aggressive lines. The figures were weird and distorted, and the postures were impossible. That's fine. There is no reason for an artist to keep doing what everyone else has been doing.
But here's the thing. Liefeld had no sense of composition. He couldn't string panels together to tell a story. His action shots were hard to follow. It was obvious that he had never learned his trade.
The artistic ideal is to learn the rules, then to understand the reason behind the rules, and then break the rules with deliberation. Shakespeare had a monstrous vocabulary, but when there wasn't a word in English that fit the meaning and the line, he would invent one. Picasso learned how to draw women realistically before he started drawing them from three different views at once.
If someone is breaking the rules without understanding the consequences, it's not being a better artist. It's being a hack.
As for fads in clothing, the bad ones are mocked, but the good ones stick around or are remembered with respect. People still wear blue jeans, a white T-shirt, and a leather jacket like Brando.
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
Thanks for posting that! My girlfriend has never even cracked open a comic book but she was laughing out loud right next to me as we read that. Awesome stuff.
And yes, Liefeld is the worst.
project86
02-09-08, 10:28 PM
I'm not too big on him. When he took over The Avengers though, I thought he did an great job with it.
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
That's a great link. I was into comics right around the time that Liefeld was starting on The New Mutants. I loved his art back then. Looking at the selections in that article had me wondering what the hell I was thinking back then.
whotony
02-10-08, 12:19 AM
i hate leifeld but loved sam keith.
i thought the maxx was mazing as a story and for the artwork.
the mtv mini series cartoon was brilliant.
bloopbleep
02-10-08, 08:43 AM
i hate leifeld but loved sam keith.
i thought the maxx was mazing as a story and for the artwork.
the mtv mini series cartoon was brilliant.
I remember back in the late 80`s comics sucked and it was Liefelds enthusasim in a Marvel Age magazine, that made me want to try his stuff out, he had hundreds of great ideas running around in his head like Cable and Deadpool(marvel last 2 creations that actually mattered).New Mutants and X-force were kick ass books, it was the stuff Rob and Image did to the industry later that ruined comics.I for a fact cannot remember a artist as hot as Liefeld that has fallen as low. his art was decent now crap. did the man just take the money and run(he made millions like all the original image guys) or is thier a substance abuse problem?
cupcake jesus
02-10-08, 10:54 AM
Yeah, don't drag Sam Kieth into this. He clearly understands anatomy and composition. He has a style. Same with a guy like Kelley Jones.
cheers,
-the Jesus
ivelostr2
02-10-08, 11:14 AM
Yeah, don't drag Sam Kieth into this. He clearly understands anatomy and composition. He has a style. Same with a guy like Kelley Jones.
cheers,
-the Jesus
While following the links I posted, I realize Sam Keith is consistant with his art, but I just don't like it. I do appreciate it more now than when i was you ng though...
Nick
zombeaner
02-10-08, 11:54 AM
I haven't been into comics for a long time, but the only artist who I really sought out at the time was Mark Texeira. He had a really distinct style that I dug.
That link is great, like I said, I've been out of the comics for many years but that cracked me up!
Rogue588
02-10-08, 01:41 PM
While following the links I posted, I realize Sam Keith is consistant with his art, but I just don't like it. I do appreciate it more now than when i was you ng though...I felt the same way about Bill Sienkiewicz. Man, I hated it when he came onto New Mutants. Now he's one of my favorites.
I like Keith and Texeira too. But I think Texeira does his best work with Saltares.
zombiezilla
02-10-08, 03:54 PM
Sam Keith has consistency...he's consistently bad. I just hate his stuff, and have never been able to enjoy a single panel of the stories he's worked on. Just my opinon, though; art is such a personal issue (as far as preferences go), I'm glad we have enough artists in comics to bitch about the ones we don't like.
calhoun07
02-10-08, 05:39 PM
To make comic book art, an artists really needs to know how to draw from life and make realistic looking art. I think Liefeld never studied drawing actual people and went straight for getting ideas from looking at past comics.
slop101
02-10-08, 06:33 PM
To make comic book art, an artists really needs to know how to draw from life and make realistic looking art.And that's just part of it. A good comic book artist also needs to be able to tell a story, with the flow of art from one panel to the next - Liefeld's panels were just disjointed splash-pages with no reason or flow whatsoever.
ChristopherS
02-10-08, 06:49 PM
More unforgivable than the terrible artwork from some of the Image guys was the arrogance in thinking they were writers also- pushing out the two long-time X-Men writers Chris Claremont and Louise Simonson, who I'm sure took a writing class or two in their day. So Shakesperian at writing were the Image crew that actual writers had to come in to make sense of their scripts most of the time, and all the X-books quickly spiraled into an unreadable mess. That's when I, and everyone else, left comics... I came back a few years ago and I'm happy to see Marvel has a lot of quality artists now w/o much of the Image guys around. And for the poster that said the Image art was simply trendy and looks dated like anything else- look at the artwork of someone like John Byrne from the 70's. Still looks like fantastic art. Only clothing styles on characters are going to give anything away. Just one example.
calhoun07
02-11-08, 01:09 AM
And that's just part of it. A good comic book artist also needs to be able to tell a story, with the flow of art from one panel to the next - Liefeld's panels were just disjointed splash-pages with no reason or flow whatsoever.
Yes. The best comic book artists could step into a movie studio and storyboard a movie. I know there are a few that have gone on to story board movies. If Rob Liefeld storyboarded a movie, it would be a worse mess than a Hottie or a Nottie.
calhoun07
02-11-08, 01:19 AM
I was telling a friend at work about this thread and the linked site and he said how much he hated Liefeld on X-Force and also was telling me to check out Liefeld's site. Which is how I found this one...
http://robliefeld.net/images/covers/battlestar/battlestar3.jpg
I swear he draws the noses on all men exactly the same, regardless of who they are. And I could post more examples from his site to show that, but check out the two drawings down in the lower left....Long haired guy has the SAME chest proportion as the Captain America drawing I posted earlier. He STILL has not learned how to draw chests, and it's surprising considering the sheer amount of gay porn he draws inspiration from. And that woman's back??? WHOLLY CRAP! See a chiropractor, babe! I am no doctor, but I know a spine isn't supposed to bend at a sharp angle like that in the middle of your back! OUCH!!!!
And please don't give me it's for exaggeration or whatever...it still should somewhat follow the rules of human anatomy. And this drawing does not.
calhoun07
02-11-08, 01:30 AM
Here is another favorite:
http://robliefeld.net/images/covers/coverothers/others2.jpg
Where are those extra bullet or laser or phaser or whatever they are shots coming from? I see eleven bullets or phaser beams or whatever they are. Three guys...all standing on tippy toes as they shoot because it's easier that way, you know...three guns, and all those bullets going off at the same time, because they all have reached pretty much the same distance.
True_Story1011
02-11-08, 02:01 AM
One guy that I hated with a passion was Jae Lee, When he did namor I just about barfed - then Jim Lee put him on a Wildcats book...
I stopped paying attention to him with vol. 1 of Hellshock...
But I think he started using reference for Vol. 2 Hellshock - and it was a short lived excellent story! Jae Lee has consistantly been getting better and now is on my top list of favorite artists.
True_Story1011
02-11-08, 02:08 AM
As for McFarlane and crews artwork towards the end from Marvel were all pretty pathetic. Most were waiting for their contracts to lapse.
Spider-Man: Torment was very well done and not untill the later issues with Wendingo to the ass clowned crossover with X-Force did i realize they were just throwing sketches on pages and than sending off to the inkers.
The only artists style that has been consistant over the years from the early Image years has been Erik Larsen... not to mention the most on time title with the original creator.
But I would say Stephen Platt's artwork was pretty horrible also (but his first couple covers for Moon Knight rocked!)... OH DONT FORGET DAN 'wannabe Rob Liefeld' Fraga was just as bad.
Nick Danger
02-11-08, 11:01 AM
Here is another favorite:
http://robliefeld.net/images/covers/coverothers/others2.jpg
Where are those extra bullet or laser or phaser or whatever they are shots coming from? I see eleven bullets or phaser beams or whatever they are. Three guys...all standing on tippy toes as they shoot because it's easier that way, you know...three guns, and all those bullets going off at the same time, because they all have reached pretty much the same distance.
I think this is a lot better than the other art we've seen in this thread. The hands and feet of the main figure are good. The gun is actually in his hand. His back isn't broken.
There might be too many "bullets" for logic, but it's a comic book cover and appearance is always more important than logic. I don't care about that.
But Mrs Danger pointed out that having all those "bullets" stop right on the page weakens the picture. The round ends pull the eye from the main focus. Check it out: if you scroll up just a little and crop off those three round ends, the picture looks a lot better.
fujishig
02-11-08, 12:45 PM
Jae Lee definitely improved from his early days... loved his Inhumans mini. He's also much better suited to miniseries, I didn't even know Hellshock v. 2 finished coming out.
Steve Epting has been around for a while, but for some reason I thought his run on Avengers was very plain... when I picked up his work in Crossgen, it had improved a lot.
Also, Oliver Coipel was (IMHO) absolutely terrible on Legion Lost... I hated it. He had much improved by the time the "regular" Legion series started, and of course they pulled him off of it to helm a more popular book.
Travis Charest is now one of my favorite (and also one of the slowest) artists, but his early work in the Flash Annual and the first few Darkstar issues were nothing more than a Jim Lee clone.
slop101
02-11-08, 01:53 PM
I think this is a lot better than the other art we've seen in this thread. The hands and feet of the main figure are good. The gun is actually in his hand. His back isn't broken.That's only because it's really early Liefeld from DC and he most likely had his pencils fixed by the inker. There's stories of how Karl Kessel re-did about 75% of Liefeld's pencils when he inked them for Hawk & Dove.
slop101
02-11-08, 01:58 PM
Steve Epting has been around for a while, but for some reason I thought his run on Avengers was very plain... when I picked up his work in Crossgen, it had improved a lot.I agree, and I didn't care for his work on Avengers either, but he has improved a great deal - especially during his Captain America run, and now I really dig his stuff. He just had to get motivated by the right material.
TimeandTide
02-11-08, 02:52 PM
And for the poster that said the Image art was simply trendy and looks dated like anything else- look at the artwork of someone like John Byrne from the 70's. Still looks like fantastic art. Only clothing styles on characters are going to give anything away. Just one example.
Word. And add to that list George Perez, Neal Adams, Paul Smith, and a host of others. How man of today's artists will still be relevant 30-40 years from now?
fujishig
02-11-08, 03:10 PM
Despite the whole Image era and the unfortunate glut of similar artists that brought us, there are a great number of artists today that I think will stand the test of time. From the more cartoony/animated-style artists like McGuinness, Weiringo, Jeff Smith and Sprouse, to the more realistic artists like Hitch, McNiven and Cassaday (man, where did this guy come from before Planetary?). I just read Avengers: Illuminati, and while it's not as flashy as some artists, Jim Cheung does great work.
ChristopherS
02-11-08, 07:02 PM
I was telling a friend at work about this thread and the linked site and he said how much he hated Liefeld on X-Force and also was telling me to check out Liefeld's site. Which is how I found this one...
http://robliefeld.net/images/covers/battlestar/battlestar3.jpg
I swear he draws the noses on all men exactly the same, regardless of who they are. And I could post more examples from his site to show that, but check out the two drawings down in the lower left....Long haired guy has the SAME chest proportion as the Captain America drawing I posted earlier. He STILL has not learned how to draw chests, and it's surprising considering the sheer amount of gay porn he draws inspiration from. And that woman's back??? WHOLLY CRAP! See a chiropractor, babe! I am no doctor, but I know a spine isn't supposed to bend at a sharp angle like that in the middle of your back! OUCH!!!!
And please don't give me it's for exaggeration or whatever...it still should somewhat follow the rules of human anatomy. And this drawing does not.
His male faces kinda look like Rob himself.
calhoun07
02-11-08, 09:03 PM
His male faces kinda look like Rob himself.
Wow...you're right. I looked at an image of him I found on google, and his nose looks similar to how he's been drawing them on all the guys he draws.
MartinBlank
02-11-08, 09:36 PM
Doesn't he have some weird technique where he draws thumbnails on post-its and just blows them up to 11by17 to be inked?
movieguru
02-11-08, 09:56 PM
I was telling a friend at work about this thread and the linked site and he said how much he hated Liefeld on X-Force and also was telling me to check out Liefeld's site. Which is how I found this one...
http://robliefeld.net/images/covers/battlestar/battlestar3.jpg
I swear he draws the noses on all men exactly the same, regardless of who they are. And I could post more examples from his site to show that, but check out the two drawings down in the lower left....Long haired guy has the SAME chest proportion as the Captain America drawing I posted earlier. He STILL has not learned how to draw chests, and it's surprising considering the sheer amount of gay porn he draws inspiration from. And that woman's back??? WHOLLY CRAP! See a chiropractor, babe! I am no doctor, but I know a spine isn't supposed to bend at a sharp angle like that in the middle of your back! OUCH!!!!
And please don't give me it's for exaggeration or whatever...it still should somewhat follow the rules of human anatomy. And this drawing does not.
Anyone notice that some of the faces of the characters that he draws resemble himself? Look at the grey haired guy in the bottom right fof the Galactica book. Some of the other drawiing on the earlier link too. Look at the su=quinty eyes in those pics.
calhoun07
02-11-08, 11:46 PM
Anyone notice that some of the faces of the characters that he draws resemble himself?
Yeah...ChristopherS pointed it out.
MBoyd
02-12-08, 12:28 AM
I bought the 1st issues of Heroes Reborn but besides that the only Liefield stuff I ever bought was his BSG stuff. I was just so hungry for anything to do with that classic show. Oh and I guess I did buy those Teen Titans issues a couple of years ago. I have to say though, I had stopped reading Marvel by the time he got popular and didnt even notice any of that BS thank god.
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision. :lol:
Cathepsin
02-12-08, 01:11 AM
And that woman's back??? WHOLLY CRAP! See a chiropractor, babe! I am no doctor, but I know a spine isn't supposed to bend at a sharp angle like that in the middle of your back! OUCH!!!!
And please don't give me it's for exaggeration or whatever...it still should somewhat follow the rules of human anatomy. And this drawing does not.
Yeah, but at least Turner's stuff is much more..ahem...pleasing to the eye!
calhoun07
02-12-08, 05:50 PM
He learned anatomy with Michael Turner.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/justiceleague-10.jpg
WHAAAAAAAAA??? Somebody who draws comics draws big boobs???
http://www.phobe.com/no_wai2.jpg
dadaluholla
02-12-08, 06:16 PM
Well, Power Girl is SUPPOSED to look like that!
-ptth-
True_Story1011
02-13-08, 12:23 AM
Yeah I still dig Travis Charest work, but its too far and few between.
The new issue of X-Force has a cover by him on it - comes out tomorrow. I'm going to take a hit on it... just as long as they dont jack up the price. I hate that shit!
I found the best single issue artwork done by Charest was X-Men/Wildcats... beautiful work!
MartinBlank
02-13-08, 01:00 AM
Yeah I still dig Travis Charest work, but its too far and few between.
The new issue of X-Force has a cover by him on it - comes out tomorrow. I'm going to take a hit on it... just as long as they dont jack up the price. I hate that shit!
I found the best single issue artwork done by Charest was X-Men/Wildcats... beautiful work!
:thumbsup: I've always thought his stuff was amazing. I've been out of the comic scene for a few years now, not that that matters, but anyway.
I found this Liefeld link a few weeks back, probably from wiki...funny shit, thanks for posting :lol:
ytrez
02-13-08, 11:27 AM
WHAAAAAAAAA??? Somebody who draws comics draws big boobs???
http://www.phobe.com/no_wai2.jpg
It isn't so much the boobs, which are enormous, but look at the neck. And the waist. And the position of the boobs on the chest.
calhoun07
02-13-08, 06:13 PM
It isn't so much the boobs, which are enormous, but look at the neck. And the waist. And the position of the boobs on the chest.
Let's face it: most of these comic book babes would need medical attention if they existed in the real world as is. Their tiny waists are never enough to support what's on top.
fujishig
02-13-08, 06:36 PM
Let's face it: most of these comic book babes would need medical attention if they existed in the real world as is. Their tiny waists are never enough to support what's on top.
I think most of the guys would need medical attention too, with the oversized muscles and tiny (or in Rob's case, nonexistant/hidden) feet.
I remember as a kid reading Valiant's Harbinger, with Zephyr being overweight, and thinking to myself when is she going to slim down like on the cover?
mrhan
02-13-08, 10:48 PM
I remember when Rob plagarized every panel of an issue of The Teen Titans drawn by George Perez. It was an issue of New Mutants---or was that X-Force? It's been so long I can't remember.
He said it was a homage after there was a big uproar about it---yeah right. So, why wasn't Perez's name on it?
Leifield is the worst artist ever.
Mordred
02-14-08, 12:05 PM
I remember being a huge X-Men fan around the time Liefeld's New Mutants was big and hating the issues of his crap I had to buy for the X-tinction Agenda crossover. My friends and I all became huge Image fans as well (I still like a lot of McFarlane's stuff too). I feel good saying that I always hated Liefeld's crap. I remember my friends gushing over Liefeld and showing me this cover:
http://images.comiccollectorlive.com/632CEAEB-A7B3-44A1-9633-44A46B1E4081/BB159C34-DCB4-4AAD-A6F3-77F2B460AFC4/9C1B6EDB-7830-4A4A-BADD-0BB8DB873FB2.jpg
I remember trying to explain to him why it was such crap, but I don't think he could get over the size of their boobs.
McHawkson
02-14-08, 01:06 PM
Hey, I remember that artist... I hate his drawing. I was collecting The Amazing Spiderman faithful till he took over, I stopped collect it. And he still drawing??
hiccup
02-15-08, 01:07 AM
Probably.
MovieExchange
02-17-08, 11:17 AM
I've only scanned the thread, but have we actually gone 3 pages with no one bringing up the fact that Liefeld coped other people's artwork, sometimes down to the exact frame layout over the pages? One of the best examples was a 2 page spread from Ronin that Liefeld stole frame-by-frame for one of the last New Mutants issues.
In terms of worse (but not as successful) artists out there, there was a guy named John Bergerud that worked for Anubis Comics or Anubis Press or something stupid like that. I think he did a book called "Godhead" back in the early 90's. He had several of his sketches featured in Wizard's cover gallery or whatever it was called back then.
Bergerud's swipes were even more obvious than Rob's. When John did it, you could actually see the changing of styles from page to page. You'd look at one sequence and say "oh, that's Jim Lee." Then you'd turn the page and say "oh, that's Tim Vigil" (who reportedly swiped most of his poses from porn mags).
At a convention, Vigil had examples of John's work, and showed me where it was taken from O'Barr, Vigil, Lee and others. Being a wannabe artist at the time, I asked John why he did this, and his writing partner Tammy Van Atta fucking flipped out on me, screaming that she worked for the FBI and how if I repeated those accusations she'd come after me, etc. I got a good laugh, called her a psycho bitch and moved on. Amazingly enough, John and Tammy didn't do much more in the comics industry.
Nick Danger
02-17-08, 12:05 PM
I've only scanned the thread, but have we actually gone 3 pages with no one bringing up the fact that Liefeld coped other people's artwork, sometimes down to the exact frame layout over the pages?
Mrhan did, in post 71.
whotony
02-17-08, 05:59 PM
Mrhan did, in post 71.
time for a new scanner.
MovieExchange
02-18-08, 01:57 AM
Mrhan did, in post 71.
Ahhh. My eyes had pretty much glazed over by that point. But still, 3 pages before someone mentioned it. Back when the Liefeld hate really ran hot, that was the first reason brought up as to why he was hated.
calhoun07
02-18-08, 07:09 PM
Some examples of his swiping:
New Mutants 100 vs Ronin #1
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/miller/mill_00.jpg
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/miller/mill_01.jpg
Rob Liefeld<-->Yoshitomi
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/yoshitomi/yos_01.jpg
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/yoshitomi/yos_00.jpg Captain America vol2 6 vs Captain America 110
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/steranko/ste_01.jpg
http://adlo.dreamers.com/estudios/comparativas/steranko/ste_00.jpg
And something else drawn from his gay porn collection:
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Onslaught/ONREBOR003_cov.jpg
Check out this breakdown of his 40 worst drawings if you need to review some of his work before making a decision.
Wow. This website is brutal. But it made for some good laughs - who am I kidding? This thing had me in tears. I'm not sure why so many people HATE this guy. He wasn't the best artist by far, but certainly not the worst.
boredsilly
02-19-08, 12:41 PM
I LOVE when the swipe police attack! It seems like such a no brainer to not do that shit, but people still do to this day.
I get a kick out of seeing how obvious they are.
MartinBlank
02-19-08, 12:58 PM
I LOVE when the swipe police attack! It seems like such a no brainer to not do that shit, but people still do to this day.
I get a kick out of seeing how obvious they are.
Does this happen a lot? I've heard about it for years from stand-up comics, but never about comic books.
madcougar
02-19-08, 02:28 PM
Does this happen a lot? I've heard about it for years from stand-up comics, but never about comic books.
There used to be a really good website with swipes, but I can't remember off hand. As I recall, Liefeld was featured prominently along with dozens of other artists.
Nick Danger
02-19-08, 02:31 PM
A couple of those "swipes" aren't really that bad. Obviously both artists had seen pictures of Rambo with his machine gun. And the Wolverine pose is straight from "Drawing the Marvel Way". It's probably something that Kirby invented.
Granted, most of them are flagrant.
MartinBlank
02-19-08, 02:50 PM
There used to be a really good website with swipes, but I can't remember off hand. As I recall, Liefeld was featured prominently along with dozens of other artists.
A couple of those "swipes" aren't really that bad. Obviously both artists had seen pictures of Rambo with his machine gun. And the Wolverine pose is straight from "Drawing the Marvel Way". It's probably something that Kirby invented.
Granted, most of them are flagrant.Yeah, I could probably find a dozen Wolverine poses exactly like that from a dozen different artists. The one with the guy leaping like the green lantern isn't all that bad either. The rest are pretty obvious though.
boredsilly
02-19-08, 03:53 PM
I don't know, I think they're all pretty bad. Sure Wolverine is in that pose dozens of times in various comics, but whenever you can lay one image over another and they match up perfectly? You've got a problem.
If you look at the one that swiped the leaping Guy Gardner GL, the hands are exactly the same.
A lot of these don't seem like swipes to me, so much as homages.
scarredgod
02-19-08, 03:59 PM
A lot of these don't seem like swipes to me, so much as homages.
you must be a tarantino fan.
fujishig
02-19-08, 04:07 PM
I still say Roger Cruz was the worst at this (maybe he still is? haven't seen his work for quite some time). His style changed depending on who he copied.
redskull
02-19-08, 04:46 PM
Wow. This website is brutal. But it made for some good laughs - who am I kidding? This thing had me in tears. I'm not sure why so many people HATE this guy. He wasn't the best artist by far, but certainly not the worst.
The hate probably stems from the fact that he fell ass-backwards into a career and lifestyle that most comic fans can only begin to dream about.
According to him he went to a comic con, and like everyone else showed his work to someone from Marvel or DC (who if there is any justice in the universe has since been fired) but unlike everyone else he was hired on the spot. He then was given a high profile book at Marvel, and within months pretty much everyone there was either trying to or was commanded to draw like him.
But it didn't stop there--he was approached to make the 501 jeans commercial, then got together with a bunch of his artist pals, said "screw you!' to Marvel, and left to start his own company with his own "original" characters.
That seemed to be where the hate really being to ramp up. His 4-issue "Youngblood" miniseries was still unfinished over a year after the first issue was printed. He then began starting up new titles like crazy, most of which never saw a 2nd or 3rd issue. Most of his "original" characters were copies of his earlier characters which were themselves copies of Marvel properties.
Then just to prove the universe makes no sense, he was actually hired back by Marvel (the company he basically told to f-off) in order to help roll out their "Heroes Reborn" debacle.
Oh yeah, there's also the fact that he can't draw his way out of a paper bag, and the constant and blatant swiping. You'd think someone who swiped poses as much as he does would be able to draw better.
ytrez
02-19-08, 05:11 PM
Yeah, I could probably find a dozen Wolverine poses exactly like that from a dozen different artists. The one with the guy leaping like the green lantern isn't all that bad either. The rest are pretty obvious though.
Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!
Look at the position of the fingers on both hands in both pictures!
madcougar
02-19-08, 11:12 PM
The hate probably stems from the fact that he fell ass-backwards into a career and lifestyle that most comic fans can only begin to dream about...
:lol: Redskull, tell me how you really feel. Seriously, I get all that but considering that there are so many actors, singers and others who basically are talentless hacks who somehow make it huge (Dane Cook comes to mind for me), it amazes me that years (YEARS!) after that 501 commercial, people still bring it up. The guy has gotten his comupence!
dogmatica
02-20-08, 12:36 AM
Jae Lee.
whotony
02-20-08, 12:44 AM
jae lee what?
whotony
02-20-08, 12:55 AM
A lot of these don't seem like swipes to me, so much as homages.
a very large % of those are just reprints with a new artist drawing the cover art.
except for a few like this one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/jimmyvee/thingyoungblood.jpg
and this one
Jae Lee.
I assume you're suggesting he's somehow worse than Liefeld, but I can't agree. Granted, up until ten minutes ago I only knew his work from a reprint of Bram Stoker's Dracula that featured several color inserts of his artwork, and I found it very impressive. A quick googling gave me this site (http://members.tripod.com/%7Ejae_lee/) of Lee's artwork and I have to say he knows proper anatomical structure, the rules of perspective and how to give a face - and image - emotion, all of which make him far better than the sadsack Liefeld.
Not really. And I stand by what I said. Swipes are a shortcut artists use when they can't do something or don't want to, and the swipe isn't obvious until the swipe police come through and point it out.
When an artist is recreating an incredibly famous cover image, I doubt they're trying to fool anyone, but instead use it as a short hand saying "remember that issue where X happened? Something like that may happen in this issue too!" or they just really like the image. I doubt artists recreate the famous Kevin Maguire JL cover or Crisis cover thinking people won't realize what they're doing.
They're homages especially when they're in the same line of books. Like the covers with an X-man leaving on a white background with a group of other x-men in the background.
fujishig
02-20-08, 12:41 PM
Usually for an homage, the artist references the original work somehow, unless that work is so famous that it's pretty universally recognized. I have no problem when they use stuff like basic composition or panel layouts to get an idea of what to do (or even Rob swiping the helicarrier stuff), but most of the examples above are blatant swipes... like he took the basic pose and just inked over it to look like his characters.
The last example, with the New Mutants cover, was obviously an homage... to himself.
Jae Lee, as I think someone mentioned above, was pretty raw when he started out on Namor, and then showed great improvement but was very very slow on Hellshock. Everything I've seen of him since Inhumans has been great, though.
Mordred
02-20-08, 01:36 PM
Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!
Look at the position of the fingers on both hands in both pictures!Hey, I'll give you that the hands are remarkably similar, but the head is positioned differently, the body is drawn differently, his legs are slightly changed, Liefeld actually drew a foot (which must have been painful for him) and the guys package for some reason.
Maybe it still qualifies as a swipe, I guess I don't know the definition. In my opinion, certain body poses are going to show similarities and so as long as they don't look traced to me, then it's alright. The fingers are coming pretty close but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on it, considering how egregious the other examples are.
True_Story1011
02-21-08, 06:15 PM
One guy that I hated with a passion was Jae Lee, When he did namor I just about barfed - then Jim Lee put him on a Wildcats book...
I stopped paying attention to him with vol. 1 of Hellshock...
But I think he started using reference for Vol. 2 Hellshock - and it was a short lived excellent story! Jae Lee has consistantly been getting better and now is on my top list of favorite artists.
here you go!^
True_Story1011
02-21-08, 06:26 PM
You guys forgot about Dan Fraga, he's got a myspace page and Joe Rogan is one of his best friends... or something like that.
Fraga was the guy who did Brigade, he was a complete Liefeld clone that hung around Image and Awesome Ent. for along time.
I think he's freelance now. But he's a complete turd artist.
I can pretty much see an artist work and know who the artist is - kinda like a fine art snob. I'm a pulp snob! ;)
fujishig
02-21-08, 07:25 PM
You guys forgot about Dan Fraga, he's got a myspace page and Joe Rogan is one of his best friends... or something like that.
Fraga was the guy who did Brigade, he was a complete Liefeld clone that hung around Image and Awesome Ent. for along time.
I think he's freelance now. But he's a complete turd artist.
I can pretty much see an artist work and know who the artist is - kinda like a fine art snob. I'm a pulp snob! ;)
I actually liked Fraga more than Marat Mychaels... I think Mychaels was the one on Brigade, Fraga did a similar book (with a character who was the twin or clone of the Brigade leader) called Bloodstrike.
I also thought another Extreme Studios artist, Jeff Matsuda, who drew New Men, wasn't that good, but his style grew and he's the character designer of the cartoons Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman, so he's done well for himself.
Yeah, yeah, I collected way too many Image titles in my youth...
Other semi-popular artists that I don't think are that great:
Ian Churchill seemed pretty good when he was doing Cable, but it doesn't seem like he's grown much since... his Supergirl work was a pain to look at, since it seems his faces all have to be in a certain position.
I thought that DC should've gotten a better artist to team with Morrison on JLA than Howard Porter, who seemed to put his characters in the same unnatural poses.
Keith Giffen went through this phase when he put out Trencher that I just couldn't understand... he had changed his style drastically when he revamped the Legion, but it was always clear storytelling, very stylistic with many panels, but understandable (though some people hated it). In comparison, his Trencher was just a mess.
What happened to John Byrne? One of my absolute favorite artists of the 80's, his work on Wonder Woman was just odd (everyone looked anorexic or something)... DC had to really, really revamp Cassie to make his original design somewhat bearable. I'm not sure if he's just rushing stuff out now or what, but I haven't enjoyed his art since Next Men. (for that matter, what happened to Chris Claremont's ability to tell a story?)
I loved Maduriera's work, but apparently his Ultimates v. 3 stuff is terrible...
True_Story1011
02-21-08, 07:46 PM
I actually liked Fraga more than Marat Mychaels... I think Mychaels was the one on Brigade, Fraga did a similar book (with a character who was the twin or clone of the Brigade leader) called Bloodstrike.
:brickwl2: doh! I completely forgot about Marat! lol That goes to show you how much these two were alike. :lol:
I also thought another Extreme Studios artist, Jeff Matsuda, who drew New Men, wasn't that good, but his style grew and he's the character designer of the cartoons Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman, so he's done well for himself.
Yeah, yeah, I collected way too many Image titles in my youth...
You know I actually enjoyed his work from jumpstreet.
I didnt have as much of a problem/hate with him as I did with the two above mentioned. I even stopped purchasing the books because I kept thinking why would someone want to copy a style of someone whose work completely stunk! :lol:
Believe me I was right there with you, I even purchased poopers like Tribe and Wildstar (WildStar had a great premise - horrible execution. But I guess that could be said about every early Image title)
Other semi-popular artists that I don't think are that great:
Ian Churchill seemed pretty good when he was doing Cable, but it doesn't seem like he's grown much since... his Supergirl work was a pain to look at, since it seems his faces all have to be in a certain position.
I thought that DC should've gotten a better artist to team with Morrison on JLA than Howard Porter, who seemed to put his characters in the same unnatural poses.
I didnt mind Ian Churchill or even Brett Booth, but at one point in time they were all Jim Lee'ers. Its good to see Booth's broke off and is doing stuff outside of comics.
I really enjoyed the work of Howard Porter on JLA - His Lanterns rocked!
Keith Giffen went through this phase when he put out Trencher that I just couldn't understand... he had changed his style drastically when he revamped the Legion, but it was always clear storytelling, very stylistic with many panels, but understandable (though some people hated it). In comparison, his Trencher was just a mess.
Giffen work is awesome, he's alot like watching Darrow Where's Waldo'esque stuff :)
What happened to John Byrne? One of my absolute favorite artists of the 80's, his work on Wonder Woman was just odd (everyone looked anorexic or something)... DC had to really, really revamp Cassie to make his original design somewhat bearable. I'm not sure if he's just rushing stuff out now or what, but I haven't enjoyed his art since Next Men. (for that matter, what happened to Chris Claremont's ability to tell a story?)
Your telling me! His run on Uncanny was breathtaking and the re-up on The Man of Steel.... Forgetaboutit! lol
I think the fans found out how much he hates comics and all the people that read them - He was always a total Ass-clown when we'd go see him at The Mid-Ohio-Con. Making smartass comments to people, thinking they were hillarious as he'd laugh out loud, when they were only hurtful and mean spirited.
I loved Maduriera's work, but apparently his Ultimates v. 3 stuff is terrible...
My brother was always a big fan of Mad - I never really took much notice to his panel work. But his splashes were very nice. He always had a problem with background work.
fujishig
02-21-08, 08:00 PM
At least Tribe and Wildstar had decent artists in Larry Stroman and Jerry Ordway. Of course, they weren't in the typical Image style so I don't think they went over very well with the Image crowd at the time.
A guy that seems to get a lot of hate but whom I actually like is Bart Sears (and his inker/clone Andy Smith). He did the Brutes and Babes "how to draw" section in Wizard for some time, and even started his own company for a while that put out something like 5 books. He does overdo it with the muscles, but I thought he was great in Justice League Europe, Eclipso, and stuff like that.
Ah, I remember another "popular" artist that I just can't stand: Pat Lee. He actually draws robots pretty well, and he had the anime-like shading/coloring techniques on his work before that became really popular. But his human characters are pretty wooden, and then there's that whole mess with his company when he wouldn't/couldn't pay his freelancers...
True_Story1011
02-21-08, 08:23 PM
At least Tribe and Wildstar had decent artists in Larry Stroman and Jerry Ordway. Of course, they weren't in the typical Image style so I don't think they went over very well with the Image crowd at the time.
As for the typical artists that were drawn to Image. I agree - But that wasnt the problem that i had with those books. Larry Stroman's work was kinda hard to follow from frame to frame. Alot of darkness.
Ordways stuff was nice though!
A guy that seems to get a lot of hate but whom I actually like is Bart Sears (and his inker/clone Andy Smith). He did the Brutes and Babes "how to draw" section in Wizard for some time, and even started his own company for a while that put out something like 5 books. He does overdo it with the muscles, but I thought he was great in Justice League Europe, Eclipso, and stuff like that.
I thought Sears stuff was exacting - His anatomy was spot on. His work wasnt exactly realistic and the stories in the books he released sucked!
But if they put a Silver Surfer book out written by anyone thats a true writer and drawn by Sears... I would be there NOW!
Ah, I remember another "popular" artist that I just can't stand: Pat Lee. He actually draws robots pretty well, and he had the anime-like shading/coloring techniques on his work before that became really popular. But his human characters are pretty wooden, and then there's that whole mess with his company when he wouldn't/couldn't pay his freelancers...
Pat Lee pretty much does nothing but Transformer'esque stuff now. lol
MartinBlank
02-21-08, 09:23 PM
Whatever happened to the "Next McFarlane", the kid who did Moon Knight (issue #55 if I can recall my High Schrool days) and became huge for about 12 minutes?
I always dug Portacio's stuff & Jim Lee obviously.
whotony
02-21-08, 09:29 PM
that was stephen platt.
True_Story1011
02-21-08, 10:40 PM
Whatever happened to the "Next McFarlane", the kid who did Moon Knight (issue #55 if I can recall my High Schrool days) and became huge for about 12 minutes?
I always dug Portacio's stuff & Jim Lee obviously.
Yeah he did the first couple of covers of Moon Knight before it was shelved at issues 60. I do believe issues 57 and up were penciled by him. From my understanding I read somewhere (Wizard awhile back) he was discovered by an editor while he was standing in line at a bank.
Liefeld stole him from Marvel and he did a handful of Prophet books.
Then he went back to working at McDonalds... no seriously I dont know what he's doing now.
But the artist that was suppose to be, 'The Next McFarlane' was Trent Kaniuga he did this little book called 'Creed' and later penciled Ghost Rider for a hot second.
Rogue588
02-22-08, 12:21 AM
Yeah he did the first couple of covers of Moon Knight before it was shelved at issues 60. I do believe issues 57 and up were penciled by him. From my understanding I read somewhere (Wizard awhile back) he was discovered by an editor while he was standing in line at a bank.
Liefeld stole him from Marvel and he did a handful of Prophet books.
Then he went back to working at McDonalds... no seriously I dont know what he's doing now.HERE (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=153541)'s a year-old link from CBR about Mr. Platt.
"Currently on location In Vancouver BC working on the Fox pictures remake THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL starring Keeanu Reeves , Jennifer Connlly. "
Weird.
And he has an IMDB page (http://imdb.com/name/nm1792312/)
True_Story1011
02-22-08, 10:05 AM
After checking out his page, I've realized that his work still looks like a polished turd, with the exception of that Deathblow cover.
In one of those pictures it shows the prophet/conan'ish character with the gianormous shoulder muscles... I really would've thought he could actually pick up an anatomy book and at least copy some things.
Anyone else notice his women look pretty horrible still? I mean they have improved over the years, but not by much.
fujishig
02-22-08, 01:41 PM
Pat Lee pretty much does nothing but Transformer'esque stuff now. lol
He does? I thought after his whole failure with his own company, they lost the Transformers license and it was bought up by someone else... last I saw he did an arc of Superman/Batman, I think.
Sears does seem to excel at drawing either really muscular guys and really shiny things... Surfer is really shiny, but not all that muscular, not sure how great he'd be on that.
Just noticed that Churchill's going to be on the new Titans series... ah well.
True_Story1011
02-26-08, 11:50 PM
He does? I thought after his whole failure with his own company, they lost the Transformers license and it was bought up by someone else... last I saw he did an arc of Superman/Batman, I think.
Sears does seem to excel at drawing either really muscular guys and really shiny things... Surfer is really shiny, but not all that muscular, not sure how great he'd be on that.
Just noticed that Churchill's going to be on the new Titans series... ah well.
Pat Lee did issue 7 back in 2004 - I havent seen what he's been upto since. All I continue to see is pictures associating him with Transformers (known for)
Rogue588
02-27-08, 12:07 AM
Just noticed that Churchill's going to be on the new Titans series... ah well.I don't have a problem with Churchill, but the Titans preview i've seen looks bad..
Buy: