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View Full Version : How to get to heaven?


kaze0
12-13-07, 03:14 PM
Hi,

I want to make sure that I can get into heaven if I die soon. If someone kills me does that ensure that I will go there?

I don't know if this is the right forum.

pinata242
12-13-07, 03:14 PM
I think there's only one requirement: Don't sleep with another man's wife.

So you should be good to go :thumbsup:

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr.
12-13-07, 03:15 PM
step 1: stop having sex with family members

McHawkson
12-13-07, 03:24 PM
Follow the light, you'll be at Heaven in no time.

Venusian
12-13-07, 03:25 PM
why would someone killing you ensure your going to heaven?

also, do you plan on getting killed soon? Does that mean you're going to tell your bro?

Kittydreamer
12-13-07, 03:26 PM
See your bible for real answers....seems like the book of John is a good place to start.

Tracer Bullet
12-13-07, 03:29 PM
See your bible for real answers....seems like the book of John is a good place to start.

I have no idea if this was meant as a joke, but rotfl

pinata242
12-13-07, 03:30 PM
See your bible for real answers....seems like the book of John is a good place to start.
Ugh, I barely got through the first 2 chapters in that book. I didn't see any point in trying chapter 3, are there answers in there?

adamblast
12-13-07, 03:32 PM
I read John. It was OK, but they totally gave away the ending in the books right before it.

Venusian
12-13-07, 03:33 PM
I read John. It was OK, but they totally gave away the ending in the books right before it.
you didn't see the spoiler warning?

4KRG
12-13-07, 03:33 PM
http://www.heavenawaits.co.uk

ask for John and pay the entrance fee ;)

mod note - possibly nsfw

FunkDaddy J
12-13-07, 03:34 PM
I don't mean to be a party-pooper here, but come on. Really? Are we still asking this question in this day and age? Do we actually still believe there's a heaven and hell? Shouldn't all these absurd fantasies be relegated to the realm of Santa Claus?

Let's just live this life to the fullest for what it is, and enjoy every precious moment, rather than anticipate or worry about the next life. Sheesh.

Bandoman
12-13-07, 03:36 PM
http://www.localhikes.com/images/MSA_5602/Stairway_to_Heaven/Stairway_to_Heaven_Map.Jpg

Draven
12-13-07, 03:36 PM
Paypal me $100 and I'll put in a good word.

Slayer2005
12-13-07, 03:37 PM
Become a muslim. rotfl

Mrs. Danger
12-13-07, 03:45 PM
Hi,

I want to make sure that I can get into heaven if I die soon. If someone kills me does that ensure that I will go there?

I don't know if this is the right forum.


I'm not sure if I want you in my heaven. You sound sort of creepy to me.

I think you can buy a ticket to heaven from your local Catholic Priest... or is that sale over?

NORML54601
12-13-07, 03:47 PM
Take a right by Frank's farm, keep going till you get to where the old mill was then take a left. You can't miss it.

Mopower
12-13-07, 03:48 PM
These fake threads need to stop. It's just going to lead to banishment. Hopefully.

Mrs. Danger
12-13-07, 03:54 PM
Hey, if you get shot because you can't keep your love noodle in your pants, don't come crying to me. I'll just put a vise grip on it.

kvrdave
12-13-07, 03:59 PM
I don't mean to be a party-pooper here, but come on. Really? Are we still asking this question in this day and age? Do we actually still believe there's a heaven and hell? Shouldn't all these absurd fantasies be relegated to the realm of Santa Claus?

Let's just live this life to the fullest for what it is, and enjoy every precious moment, rather than anticipate or worry about the next life. Sheesh.

In this day and age? Really? Established Atheism has been around for at least 2,500 years, so probably the "in this day and age" argument has been as well. In this day and age, it seems like there would be a better argument against heaven. At a minimum, a better understanding that the argument hasn't had much success yet. :)

Toad
12-13-07, 04:05 PM
You must have joined this forum at a very, very young age in 2001...

FunkDaddy J
12-13-07, 04:17 PM
:notrolls:

You're right, I probably shouldn't have responded to him, but I just feel bad for these people who doggedly hang on to their childhood fantasies in the face of all reason.

UncleGramps
12-13-07, 04:32 PM
I think your best bet is to legally change your name to be the same as some famous guy who was really nice and did good things for other people. Something like "Martin Luther King Jr.", "Cesar Chavez", or "Mahatma Gandhi". Then when you're at the gates to get into Heaven, you might be able to trick them into thinking you're that famous nice guy and not some creep who slept with his sister-in-law. Glad I could help!

kvrdave
12-13-07, 04:33 PM
You're right, I probably shouldn't have responded to him, but I just feel bad for these people who doggedly hang on to their childhood fantasies in the face of all reason.

No offense meant with this, but I have always held that there are far brighter people and dumber people that both believe and disbelieve than those on this forum. So it doesn't seem like a real rock solid argument to appeal to reason as the answer to the question.

FunkDaddy J
12-13-07, 04:41 PM
No offense meant with this, but I have always held that there are far brighter people and dumber people that both believe and disbelieve than those on this forum. So it doesn't seem like a real rock solid argument to appeal to reason as the answer to the question.

Fair enough. I just like to spice things up and assume the role of the Sage of Reason. :)

The Edit King
12-13-07, 04:48 PM
FDJ: :lol:

kvr: WOW & DAMN-SAKE, MAN! :eek:

Has anyone ever told you that you are possibly one of the most intelligent, carbon based, warm brained people here in the wee-wee land of OtterVille?

kvrdave
12-13-07, 04:49 PM
:lol: Sadly, no. I have been called a lot of other things, though.

Kittydreamer
12-13-07, 05:19 PM
I think kvrdave is a big 'ol cuddly teddybear.

Bacon
12-13-07, 05:21 PM
step 1: stop having sex with family members
I'm from Arkansas

I guess I'm already booked for Hell :sad:

classicman2
12-13-07, 05:27 PM
Die - that'll get you there. Now whether you stay - well, that's a different kettle of fish. ;)

The Edit King
12-13-07, 07:54 PM
What the...FLATCAKES?

Is that The One, The Only...

CLASSICMAN??? :eek:

Well! & For Pete's sake, dude! I haven't seen you in a coon's age!

(Hope all is well with you and the ones you Love. :up: )

...getting dizzy...

...feeling faint...

...gas building...

...intestines swelling...

...poo button puckering...

:fart:

-THEEK, INDEEDY! :eek:

Walker Boh
12-13-07, 07:58 PM
How to get to heaven?Practice, practice, practice.

movielib
12-13-07, 09:16 PM
:lol: Sadly, no. I have been called a lot of other things, though.
Ever shed that spelunker label?

darkessenz
12-13-07, 10:57 PM
Special Underwear.

nodeerforamonth
12-14-07, 01:13 AM
You're right, I probably shouldn't have responded to him, but I just feel bad for these people who doggedly hang on to their childhood fantasies in the face of all reason.

Damn! You sound like a very open-minded individual. [/sarcasm]

Don't worry about those of us who believe. If there's nothing out there, it really shouldn't make any difference to you and you shouldn't be concerned about other people's beliefs, feelings, or just about anything for that matter. So don't feel bad for us. Or anyone.

You didn't go around shooting up any churches last week in CO, did you?

Mrs. Danger
12-14-07, 09:40 AM
Fair enough. I just like to spice things up and assume the role of the Sage of Reason. :)

I think the Rosemary of Reason, or even the Oregano of Reason would be tastier in this situation.

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 09:40 AM
Damn! You sound like a very open-minded individual. [/sarcasm]

It's just that you could be doing so much more with the time you're wasting reading a book that doesn't matter!

Aw, I'm just messin' with you guys. :)

--The Sage of Reason

Mrs. Danger
12-14-07, 09:42 AM
It's just that you could be doing so much more with the time you're wasting reading a book that doesn't matter!

Aw, I'm just messin' with you guys. :)

--The Sage of Reason


The romance novels in the first half are pretty cool!

the second part is mostly other people's mail.

GoVegan
12-14-07, 10:06 AM
The romance novels in the first half are pretty cool!
:hscratch:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/govegan/SongofSolomon.jpg

Venusian
12-14-07, 10:12 AM
It's just that you could be doing so much more with the time you're wasting reading a book that doesn't matter!

such as?

kvrdave
12-14-07, 11:15 AM
Ever shed that spelunker label?

It is the initials of my business. At least that is what I tell people. The real story, however....

There once was a man named Dave
Who found a dead whore in a cave
She smelled like shit
And was missing one tit
But think of the money he saved

al_bundy
12-14-07, 11:30 AM
you have to be an airborne ranger to go to heaven

When I get to heaven
St. Peter's gonna say
"How'd you make your living"
"How'd you earn your pay"
And I'll reply with a little bit of anger
I earned my living as an Airborne Ranger
Lived a life of guts and danger
Nothin's too tough for an Airborne Ranger

The Infidel
12-14-07, 11:51 AM
After conducting some research, it appears that if you want to get to heaven, you'll have to stay out of the way of the following people:

1. The blood-stained bandit
2. The long-tongue liar
3. The gun-shot devil

movielib
12-14-07, 12:01 PM
It is the initials of my business. At least that is what I tell people. The real story, however....

There once was a man named Dave
Who found a dead whore in a cave
She smelled like shit
And was missing one tit
But think of the money he saved
I'm definitely sorry I asked.

nodeerforamonth
12-14-07, 12:32 PM
It's just that you could be doing so much more with the time you're wasting reading a book that doesn't matter!

such as trolling?

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 12:47 PM
such as?

Well, if you want to put me on the spot, I guess--in general terms--I'd say, create something, write a book, paint a picture, spend time with your kids, take a hike, search for spirituality/god within yourself without relying on some silly text that lost its relevance in the Golden Age. Something like that.

Hey, I know I'm outnumbered here. That's fine. It's not like I'm going to change any minds. You have your truth and I have mine. You've got your answers all pre-packaged for you and I plan to enjoy the search for my ever-changing answers for the rest of my life. Part of the fun, you know.

:)

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 12:48 PM
such as trolling?

I guess if you want. :nopanic:

GreenMonkey
12-14-07, 12:48 PM
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/70/250px-Sp612_A_Ladder_to_Heaven.jpg

Venusian
12-14-07, 12:52 PM
Well, if you want to put me on the spot, I guess--in general terms--I'd say, create something, write a book, paint a picture, spend time with your kids, take a hike, search for spirituality/god within yourself without relying on some silly text that lost its relevance in the Golden Age. Something like that.

Hey, I know I'm outnumbered here. That's fine. It's not like I'm going to change any minds. You have your truth and I have mine. You've got your answers all pre-packaged for you and I plan to enjoy the search for my ever-changing answers for the rest of my life. Part of the fun, you know.

:)

Not sure how any of the stuff you mentioned is missing in my life (except i dont have kids).

but why should i write a book that would be silly and lose its relevance some time?

GoVegan
12-14-07, 12:59 PM
Well, if you want to put me on the spot, I guess--in general terms--I'd say, create something, write a book, paint a picture, spend time with your kids, take a hike, search for spirituality/god within yourself without relying on some silly text that lost its relevance in the Golden Age. Something like that.

Hey, I know I'm outnumbered here. That's fine. It's not like I'm going to change any minds. You have your truth and I have mine. You've got your answers all pre-packaged for you and I plan to enjoy the search for my ever-changing answers for the rest of my life. Part of the fun, you know.

:)I don't know if you've ever read the bible, but it's not the clearest text in the world. If you think you can flip through the index, find your question and then jump to page 518 for the answer, that's not quite how it works.

I think Dave is probably done here, but if he's not you probably don't want to get into a biblical debate with him. He knows more about the bible than the guys who made it up. -ptth- From what I've read, it seems he's better versed in biblical history than the pastor of my church when I was growing up.

I'll admit to having been obsessed with the bible for quite a while and while I decided it wasn't for me, I would never discount it as worthless. It has as much importance as you give it. Clearly you see no value in it, but others do.

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 01:04 PM
Not sure how any of the stuff you mentioned is missing in my life (except i dont have kids).

Not saying any of it isn't. But if you took the shackles of organized church from your life, you'd have a lot more time to pursue your own creativity and spirituality.

but why should i write a book that would be silly and lose its relevance some time?

It was just an example. Who cares if something you create might be deemed silly or irrelevant? I bet it would be relevant to you. It's your creation.

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 01:05 PM
I don't know if you've ever read the bible, but it's not the clearest text in the world. If you think you can flip through the index, find your question and then jump to page 518 for the answer, that's not quite how it works.

I think Dave is probably done here, but if he's not you probably don't want to get into a biblical debate with him. He knows more about the bible than the guys who made it up. -ptth- From what I've read, it seems he's better versed in biblical history than the pastor of my church when I was growing up.

I'll admit to having been obsessed with the bible for quite a while and while I decided it wasn't for me, I would never discount it as worthless. It has as much importance as you give it. Clearly you see no value in it, but others do.

I'm definitely not saying it's worthless. Never said that. It has a strong place in literature. Very strong. But that's all.

jiggawhat
12-14-07, 01:22 PM
There is no heaven.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 01:39 PM
I think Dave is probably done here, but if he's not you probably don't want to get into a biblical debate with him. He knows more about the bible than the guys who made it up. -ptth-

:lol:

kvrdave
12-14-07, 01:45 PM
I'm definitely not saying it's worthless. Never said that. It has a strong place in literature. Very strong. But that's all.

Do you believe the people who wrote it believed what they wrote and are just wrong, or do you think it was a power play conspiracy thing to start a new religion?

Or maybe you've never thought that far. I'm always curious as to what others think the people that wrote it thought.

mndtrp
12-14-07, 02:03 PM
do you think it was a power play conspiracy thing to start a new religion?
Think if all books were like that. Dr. Seuss's religion would be even more fucked up than anything else out there right now.

FunkDaddy J
12-14-07, 02:11 PM
Do you believe the people who wrote it believed what they wrote and are just wrong, or do you think it was a power play conspiracy thing to start a new religion?

I'm sure they believed it fervently, and that belief sprang from human beings' limited critical faculties at the time. There was helluva lot about daily life and the world that was shrouded in great mystery. Science in its infancy, primitive medicine, disease, etc. They were times of great superstition, for the simple reason that people didn't have the benefit of scientific breakthroughs that we've had over the thousands of years since. They didn't understand much, so they told stories to provide answers. That's happened since the beginning of time. At some point, though--mind you, in my humble opinion--as we continue to grow intellectually, humans are going to have to shuffle off the supersitions of the past and embrace a new spirituality that jives with our otherwise evolved minds. Because the old, creaky, book-based faiths are just holding us back.

Just sayin'.

starseed1981
12-14-07, 02:14 PM
The entrance is on the same block as Santa & the Easter Bunnies house.

mndtrp
12-14-07, 02:14 PM
I'm sure they believed it fervently, and that belief sprang from human beings' limited critical faculties at the time. There was helluva lot about daily life and the world that was shrouded in great mystery. Science in its infancy, primitive medicine, disease, etc. They were times of great superstition, for the simple reason that people didn't have the benefit of scientific breakthroughs that we've had over the thousands of years since. They didn't understand much, so they told stories to provide answers. That's happened since the beginning of time. At some point, though--mind you, in my humble opinion--as we continue to grow intellectually, humans are going to have to shuffle off the supersitions of the past and embrace a new spirituality that jives with our otherwise evolved minds. Because the old, creaky, book-based faiths are just holding us back.

Just sayin'.
Of course. That's where Scientology comes into play.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 02:25 PM
I'm sure they believed it fervently, and that belief sprang from human beings' limited critical faculties at the time. There was helluva lot about daily life and the world that was shrouded in great mystery. Science in its infancy, primitive medicine, disease, etc. They were times of great superstition, for the simple reason that people didn't have the benefit of scientific breakthroughs that we've had over the thousands of years since. They didn't understand much, so they told stories to provide answers. That's happened since the beginning of time. At some point, though--mind you, in my humble opinion--as we continue to grow intellectually, humans are going to have to shuffle off the supersitions of the past and embrace a new spirituality that jives with our otherwise evolved minds. Because the old, creaky, book-based faiths are just holding us back.

Just sayin'.
But guys like Peter, Paul, John, Luke, Mark, etc. Did they actually believed Jesus waas who he claimed to be, or do you think they made that up.

As to the other. I think once we figured out the universe wasn't static and had a fixed begining, you got to a point where this will never be something that people believe is all science.

Einstein, Penrose, Hawking, and most others in that field talk about God. They aren't necessarily Christians, but use the term to describe "the begining of it all." Philospoher Antony Flew went from Atheist to Theist based off reason.

I won't claim that you will all see that God is obvious once you open your eyes, but if history is any judge, this debate will not end soon. People that think science will disprove God are like people who think Jesus will return within the year, to me. Yeah, considering all things that could be possible, both of those might happen. But people have been saying both for millenia. Not holding my breath.

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 02:33 PM
Einstein, Penrose, Hawking, and most others in that field talk about God. They aren't necessarily Christians, but use the term to describe "the begining of it all." Philospoher Antony Flew went from Atheist to Theist based off reason.

Okay, first off, Einstein did not believe in a "god". And I know you've been around for movielib's statement on that "fact", so I'll leave it at that.

Secondly, Antony Flew was preyed upon in his waning years by fundamentalists when his mind was basically gone. His "conversion" was about as real as the Easter Bunny.

4KRG
12-14-07, 02:47 PM
people who think Jesus will return within the year

Jesus has already returned.

Our fine society of today locked him up in a mental hospital pumped full of antipsychotic medication and wearing a straight jacket. Well, he died, then came back a few days later and they medicated him again and locked him back up in a stragiht jacket.

After a dozen more attempts, he gave up...

kvrdave
12-14-07, 02:47 PM
Okay, first off, Einstein did not believe in a "god". And I know you've been around for movielib's statement on that "fact", so I'll leave it at that.

Secondly, Antony Flew was preyed upon in his waning years by fundamentalists when his mind was basically gone. His "conversion" was about as real as the Easter Bunny.

I said they aren't Christians and they use the term to describe "the begining of it all." How is that wrong?

And is it a fact, or just what you want to believe about how old people get talked into believing that there is a God. He isn't a Christian. But any time someone converts from Atheism, people talk about how they are old, and manipulated, and blah, blah, blah.

But rather than take your word about some supposed pressure, and preying on, etc., why not just read his book and see if it says, "I changed my mind because I'm old and people pressured me" or if he actually used his intellect and reason in the matter.

<img src=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Cow1agBL._SS500_.jpg>

mphtrilogy
12-14-07, 02:55 PM
www.cwg.org

a good read

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 02:58 PM
And is it a fact, or just what you want to believe about how old people get talked into believing that there is a God. He isn't a Christian. But any time someone converts from Atheism, people talk about how they are old, and manipulated, and blah, blah, blah.

But rather than take your word about some supposed pressure, and preying on, etc., why not just read his book and see if it says, "I changed my mind because I'm old and people pressured me" or if he actually used his intellect and reason in the matter.

<img src=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Cow1agBL._SS500_.jpg>

How about I don't bother, because that book was reported as being almost entirely the work of Roy Abraham Varghese? Flew was reportedly not even able to remember key arguments and statements from the book, or how it was written, so serious was the man's mental decline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html

I know, though- it was published by the New York Times and cannot be believed.

I said they aren't Christians and they use the term to describe "the begining of it all." How is that wrong?

You're wrong in that you're pouncing on the use of a word in order to score cheap religious points. I say "thank god" and "Jesus Christ" sometimes. I guess that means I must believe.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 03:08 PM
How about I don't bother, because that book was reported as being almost entirely the work of Roy Abraham Varghese? Flew was reportedly not even able to remember key arguments and statements from the book, or how it was written, so serious was the man's mental decline.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html

I know, though- it was published by the New York Times and cannot be believed.


Good point. He has sure not discussed this at all himself. It's a conspiracy. And the fact that Flew seems to be able to talk about the subject is just evidence of how deep the conspiracy goes.


You're wrong in that you're pouncing on the use of a word in order to score cheap religious points. I say "thank god" and "Jesus Christ" sometimes. I guess that means I must believe.

I wasn't even going for religious points. I was talking about those things that cannot be explained. Eh, whatever.

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 03:12 PM
Good point. He has sure not discussed this at all himself. It's a conspiracy. And the fact that Flew seems to be able to talk about the subject is just evidence of how deep the conspiracy goes.

Okay, so point me to some evidence. All the statements on this I've heard or read from Flew regarding this subject are, to say the least, muddled. And the man is in mental decline, and has been for at least several years.

I wasn't even going for religious points. I was talking about those things that cannot be explained. Eh, whatever.

Whatever, indeed.

movielib
12-14-07, 03:31 PM
Philospoher Antony Flew went from Atheist to Theist based off reason.
First of all, at most he went to deist. But Dave, you know I have your best interests at heart and I think you should stop clinging to Flew like a dog with a frisbee.

I have posted several articles by Richard Carrier over the years which, I'm sorry to say for such a distinguished gentleman and scholar, seriously undermine the judgment of Flew's latter years.

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/11/antony-flew-bogus-book.html

http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=369

I'm not saying an atheist cannot find religion. But Flew is an awfully poor example.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 03:40 PM
Okay, so point me to some evidence. All the statements on this I've heard or read from Flew regarding this subject are, to say the least, muddled. And the man is in mental decline, and has been for at least several years.


Ah yes, you make the claim that someone is in mental decline, a diest because of pressure, preyed upon, etc. but it is up to me to prove that he is okay.

Fine.

From your own article, Flew received the Phillip E. Johnson Award for Liberty and Truth. It's an intelligent design award.
At the Biola ceremony, Flew mocked the revealed religion of his audience and flaunted his allegiance to deism: “The deist god, unlike the god of the Jewish, Christian or, for heaven’s sake, the Islamic revelation, is neither interested in nor concerned about either human beliefs or human behavior,” he told the small crowd.

OMG!!! Teh Christians have gotten to him. He is their puppet now. That was May 2006.

Also from the article
Mindful of even greater men, from Newton to Einstein, whose words can be read to endorse the possibility of a divine creator, Flew at last joined their ranks.

Stupid Flew pouring Einstein into this for cheap religious points. HELLO!!!! I said the same thing, you call me on it and back it up with an article that uses it the same way???

And I read the rest. Flew obviously has times remembering names at time, but he is old. He also clearly has times when he is quite mentally alert. He hasn't waffled on calling himself a deist. I don't see what this proves. I didn't claim he was Christian. He has denied that claim as well. But he has been thrown to the dogs by atheists because he had friends that were Christian. I don't see anything from his family to indicate that he doesn't know what he is saying, etc. So why is the burden of proof on me again?

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 03:46 PM
Eh, I was going to mention Carrier, but movielib already did.

Stupid Flew pouring Einstein into this for cheap religious points. HELLO!!!! I said the same thing, you call me on it and back it up with an article that uses it the same way???

Oh no, one sentence in like a 5000-word essay. Crap. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree with every single word in every single article I post here. I'm not religious. :p

dork
12-14-07, 03:47 PM
On the previous page, we were warned about the fallacy of making arguments from authority. But this page is full of (somewhat tortured) attempts to make arguments from authority. I wonder what the next page will bring.

Mrs. Danger
12-14-07, 03:53 PM
I bet it WON'T bring teh funny.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 03:55 PM
Oh no, one sentence in like a 5000-word essay. Crap. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree with every single word in every single article I post here. I'm not religious. :p

My point was that I used it in a common manner when talking about beliefs. I never tried to connect it to Chrstianity, and distanced it from it. I thought it was obvious how I was using it, but maybe it wasn't.

kvrdave
12-14-07, 03:56 PM
Eh, I was going to mention Carrier, but movielib already did.


Why were you going to bring it up? That was essentially all the article brought up.

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 05:23 PM
Why were you going to bring it up? That was essentially all the article brought up.

More fuel for the fire?

At any rate, I'm done. My goal was a diversion Friday afternoon at work, and this succeeded. :D

kvrdave
12-14-07, 05:28 PM
Still just trying to understand any of what you posted (or why, I suppsoe). If it was just diversion, so be it, I suppose.

Ky-Fi
12-14-07, 05:39 PM
At some point, though--mind you, in my humble opinion--as we continue to grow intellectually, humans are going to have to shuffle off the supersitions of the past and embrace a new spirituality that jives with our otherwise evolved minds. Because the old, creaky, book-based faiths are just holding us back.


In the 20th century, in Europe, we saw the fading power of Christianity give way to the neo-paganism of the Nazis and the atheism of the communists. Similarly in China and some other asian countries, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism were also replaced by atheistic communism. These totalitarian movements EXPLICITLY rejected the traditional religions as old-fashioned superstitions that were to be replaced by scientific rationalism and modernity, and that would usher in the glorious era of the New Man. The result instead was Orwellian police states, genocidal hatred and repression aided by the latest scientific advances, and an almost unfathomable body count of....who knows how many countless millions. And this occurred in span of about 50 years. If you want to criticize the excesses and crimes that religion has inspired over history, you can certainily make a case. But the old "throwing off the shackles of the old superstitions" cheerleading would have to, I think, ring pretty empty and hollow to anyone familiar with the history of the 20th century.

crazyronin
12-14-07, 06:08 PM
[saunters in]Is this the monthly christians vs atheists thread?

They seem to happen every 28.25 days. [/saunters out]

dieinafire
12-14-07, 06:34 PM
[saunters in]Is this the monthly christians vs atheists thread?

They seem to happen every 28.25 days. [/saunters out]

Just like some chicks period.

Dash
12-14-07, 06:34 PM
In the 20th century, in Europe, we saw the fading power of Christianity give way to the neo-paganism of the Nazis and the atheism of the communists. Similarly in China and some other asian countries, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism were also replaced by atheistic communism. These totalitarian movements EXPLICITLY rejected the traditional religions as old-fashioned superstitions that were to be replaced by scientific rationalism and modernity, and that would usher in the glorious era of the New Man. The result instead was Orwellian police states, genocidal hatred and repression aided by the latest scientific advances, and an almost unfathomable body count of....who knows how many countless millions. And this occurred in span of about 50 years. If you want to criticize the excesses and crimes that religion has inspired over history, you can certainily make a case. But the old "throwing off the shackles of the old superstitions" cheerleading would have to, I think, ring pretty empty and hollow to anyone familiar with the history of the 20th century.




Im not sure how accurate that comparison is. These movements were not solely religious based, but instead based on new forms of government. This was a play for power and people were killed who in general did not go with the flow. Though there were some instances where specific religions were targeted. Such as Judaism. Even this is not quite the case, the Jews were used as a scapegoat for most of the problems happeing in Germany at the time. By blaming all the problems on them it helped Hitler gain power, not for religious reasons.


On the other hand The Crusades was an attempt to convert all who did not believe. Even in this case, there were ulterior motives. With such a gap in time we do not have as much information on their motives as we do with some of the more recent events.

nodeerforamonth
12-14-07, 06:38 PM
Hey, I know I'm outnumbered here. That's fine. It's not like I'm going to change any minds.

Nor be "open-minded" enough to take opposite points of view seriously and maybe have your own mind changed.

Instead you try to ruin other people's beliefs. Interesting....

kbmagic
12-14-07, 07:01 PM
[saunters in]Is this the monthly christians vs atheists thread?

They seem to happen every 28.25 days. [/saunters out]

In my IRC days, I used to hang out with a friend on an Athiest 'channel.' I'm a Christian, although I don't really fit into any pigeon-hole as far as what 'denomination,' I tend to be rather laid back in my beliefs, but very much a believer... my friend was VERY Athiest..and took great joy in shattering the beliefs of other Christians who would saunter into the channel to "challange (and hopefully convert) the non-believers." I took a bit of pride in the fact that an entire group of what I characterized as 'rabid Athiests' was not able to shatter my faith... (which I know was not really very 'Christian' of me)...but none-the-less, I was young and had a lot of time on my hands, and found this to be a mentally stimulating environment.

My observation of these Athiests...and over the years, most 'online Athiests' is they all seem to take a lot of joy and personal enjoyment in causing 'believers' to doubt their faith. It seems to be FUN to them to point out some inconsistency in a biblical fact or some falicy in an interpretation of scripture... sometimes seems to bring them to the point of giddiness...

Honestly, I'm curious...where does this passionate desire come from in these folks who want to 'break the believers'? I've been Christian most of my life, and although I feel that as a believer, it's my 'job' to share my faith with someone who seeks the knowledge...it's not my job to push my beliefs on someone..or try to "prove I'm right..and they're wrong' to anyone....I'm just curious where this comes from?

I have the same curiosity about those people who categorize themselves into a certain 'denomination' and then try to belittle and degrade those people in other denominations.... but more so, the Athiests I've encountered seem to have this 'mission' in their lives to 'break' as many believers as possible.

Is my observation skewed and not really mainstream, or have other folks had the same observation over the years?

I asked my "Athiest friend" this question, and his reply was that it was a direct response to all the 'bible thumpers' he had encountered over the years, trying to prove him wrong and trying to convert or 'save' him... and at face value that seemed like a logical and good explanation.... but my observations over the years haven't really supported it... Perhaps it's because I already am Christian, that I'm not being exposed to the 'uglier side' of Christians who attack Athiests?

I'm rambling...I guess in a nutshell I'm asking this... "As a Christian, it seems to me that Athiests are much more zealous about proving Christians 'wrong' than Christians are about trying to 'convert' or 'save' Athiests. Is this observation shared, or am I just biased?"

Ky-Fi
12-14-07, 07:04 PM
These movements were not solely religious based, but instead based on new forms of government. This was a play for power and people were killed who in general did not go with the flow.

Exactly. In the case of communism, the philosophy emphatically wasn't based on religion at all---that's my point.


On the other hand The Crusades was an attempt to convert all who did not believe.

I don't believe the Crusades were historically an attempt to convert all who did not believe, rather they were mainly attempts to roll back the Muslim conquest of Christian lands. But I'm not trying to gloss over the excesses of religion, or in this case specifically Christianity. I think by any accounts the Crusades included atrocities against Muslims, Jews and even other Christian cities of the regions that were sacked for profit by the Crusaders.

I'm just saying that history has given us some pretty good examples of large, powerful movements who thought they were progressing intellectually, socially and morally by adopting a world view and philosophy that was willfully and enthusiastically contrary to traditional religious teachings---and in fact in didn't turn out to be progress at all, but rather a horrible regression to barbarism.

crazyronin
12-14-07, 07:07 PM
Just like some chicks period.


Its good to see that my subtlety was not wasted. :sarcasm:

BTW back to the original topic. I think the easiest way to get into heaven is not sleeping with your brother's wife.

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 07:28 PM
Exactly. In the case of communism, the philosophy emphatically wasn't based on religion at all---that's my point.




I don't believe the Crusades were historically an attempt to convert all who did not believe, rather they were mainly attempts to roll back the Muslim conquest of Christian lands. But I'm not trying to gloss over the excesses of religion, or in this case specifically Christianity. I think by any accounts the Crusades included atrocities against Muslims, Jews and even other Christian cities of the regions that were sacked for profit by the Crusaders.

I'm just saying that history has given us some pretty good examples of large, powerful movements who thought they were progressing intellectually, socially and morally by adopting a world view and philosophy that was willfully and enthusiastically contrary to traditional religious teachings---and in fact in didn't turn out to be progress at all, but rather a horrible regression to barbarism.

I understand what you're saying, but you fall into the trap of treating atheism as a belief system. It's not, even if many of the "new atheists" have similiar points of view.

The real danger is not in atheism- it's getting rid of people's belief systems without having an alternative. Like it or not, I understand that religion gives many, many people a reason to act morally.

Ky-Fi
12-14-07, 07:40 PM
The real danger is not in atheism- it's getting rid of people's belief systems without having an alternative.

And on that I largely agree with you. I don't hold that atheism inevitably must lead to the totalitarian systems I mentioned. I'm just pointing out that we do have some major historical examples of groups that have discarded traditional religions, and, so to speak, have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Tracer Bullet
12-14-07, 07:48 PM
I'm just pointing out that we do have some major historical examples of groups that have discarded traditional religions, and, so to speak, have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

And I'll just point out that one of the most successful nations in history has an explicitly secular government. I'll give you one guess as to which one I'm referring. :D

Ky-Fi
12-14-07, 07:55 PM
And I'll just point out that one of the most successful nations in history has an explicitly secular government. I'll give you one guess as to which one I'm referring. :D

Hey man, "give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, give to God what is God's."

I'm on board with that. :toast:

atlantamoi
12-14-07, 08:11 PM
In my IRC days, I used to hang out with a friend on an Athiest 'channel.' Just a friendly reminder that it's "atheist", not "athiest". As in "theism". See this quite often.

kbmagic
12-14-07, 08:54 PM
Just a friendly reminder that it's "atheist", not "athiest". As in "theism". See this quite often.

Oops...my apologies... should have used spell check! Thanks! =)

Mrs. Danger
12-15-07, 08:59 AM
Christian/Atheist fights are fun. and legal!

darkessenz
12-15-07, 02:19 PM
The God-man's b-day is coming up. I was just thinking, in a nicotine induced craze, how the jesus myth is easily converted into a useful spiritual philosophy unconnected to sin/etc.

You could say Jesus, or part of the mystical (God), died and rose, just as man must know his own death, and still rise each day facing that fact.

You might say that man's own godness (his transcendence) in a material world is his very awareness of his own death and his defiance to it. Instead of being a sinner, man is composed of dirt but must look beyond it and beyond himself to others. Jesus telling man to follow him, is in fact an existential command to disobey the world, for it fades in the face of man's true nature.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 02:24 PM
Isn't the fundamental belief that your religion is better then others pretty arrogant? I mean its one thing to say that Christianity is just one face of a greater spiritual reality, but to claim that your collection of beliefs and morals are the *right* ones seems impossible to argue plausibly.

ESPECIALLY because Christianity also happens to be connected the greatest military conquests in the last 500 years. *Its so popular because its so easy to learn!* Or its popular because we spread it with the sword for some time.

mllefoo
12-15-07, 02:33 PM
Hi,

I want to make sure that I can get into heaven if I die soon. If someone kills me does that ensure that I will go there?

I don't know if this is the right forum.
Bribery helps.

Venusian
12-15-07, 03:17 PM
Isn't the fundamental belief that your religion is better then others pretty arrogant? I mean its one thing to say that Christianity is just one face of a greater spiritual reality, but to claim that your collection of beliefs and morals are the *right* ones seems impossible to argue plausibly.

ESPECIALLY because Christianity also happens to be connected the greatest military conquests in the last 500 years. *Its so popular because its so easy to learn!* Or its popular because we spread it with the sword for some time.
if i believed my belief wasn't better than others, why wouldn't i shed my belief system and adopt the others? If my belief system says things that are opposite of others, how can they both be faces of the same reality?

kvrdave
12-15-07, 03:38 PM
Isn't the fundamental belief that your religion is better then others pretty arrogant? I mean its one thing to say that Christianity is just one face of a greater spiritual reality, but to claim that your collection of beliefs and morals are the *right* ones seems impossible to argue plausibly.


Don't you believe that your belief that all beliefs are equal is superior to those that think otherwise? That seems pretty arrogant. And it is the logical falicy of post-modernism

darkessenz
12-15-07, 03:38 PM
if i believed my belief wasn't better than others, why wouldn't i shed my belief system and adopt the others? If my belief system says things that are opposite of others, how can they both be faces of the same reality?

Maybe cultural artefacts have polluted both religions, maybe man has polluted the doctrine through power and influence in order to benefit himself, or maybe like the US common law it has diverged as a natural result of different people being in charge when the doctrine is developed.

I realize that some believe, literally, that only people who believe in Jesus are going to heaven. This proposition, to me, seems somewhat arrogant and not correlated whatsoever to the complexities of the world. If its true, then the world is a sham.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 03:40 PM
Don't you believe that your belief that all beliefs are equal is superior to those that think otherwise? That seems pretty arrogant. And it is the logical falicy of post-modernism

My belief doesn't entail anything, such as everyone else going to hell. My beliefs about religion are the result of observing all of the different religions.

If its your contention that, after observing all the religions, you have chosen the right one...well then fine. But my contention is that after reading about many (surely not all) of the religions, I am hesitant to say that 1 is right.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 03:42 PM
Don't you believe that your belief that all beliefs are equal is superior to those that think otherwise? That seems pretty arrogant. And it is the logical falicy of post-modernism

Notice that I didn't say this. But what standard are you judging the beliefs by? Quality of Life given? Stability of government given? Moral consistency? These are all debateable.

If the standard is "Metaphysical Truth" then how can you not be skeptical about the claim that "My religion is the right one"

kvrdave
12-15-07, 03:43 PM
The God-man's b-day is coming up. I was just thinking, in a nicotine induced craze, how the jesus myth is easily converted into a useful spiritual philosophy unconnected to sin/etc.




Based on what do you believe Jesus is a myth?

darkessenz
12-15-07, 03:49 PM
Based on what do you believe Jesus is a myth?

Based on the fact that nearly every human group, since before civilization, has come up myths and gods and spirits to interact with, explain the world with, and enrich their lives with. Literally thousands and thousands of people have believed in different kinds, names of Gods/spirits/mythical universes etc.

The contention that a specific tribe of Jewish people somehow finally "got it right" is absurd to me.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 03:50 PM
Note that I don't think religion, or spirituality is a bad thing. Organized religion, especially in American, isn't so hot (though there have been worse religious movements).

kvrdave
12-15-07, 04:00 PM
My belief doesn't entail anything, such as everyone else going to hell. My beliefs about religion are the result of observing all of the different religions.

If its your contention that, after observing all the religions, you have chosen the right one...well then fine. But my contention is that after reading about many (surely not all) of the religions, I am hesitant to say that 1 is right.

How arrogant :grunt: -ptth-

You r belief doesn't seem to entail nothing. It seems to entail that someone believing their belief is superior is arrogant.

kvrdave
12-15-07, 04:05 PM
Based on the fact that nearly every human group, since before civilization, has come up myths and gods and spirits to interact with, explain the world with, and enrich their lives with. Literally thousands and thousands of people have believed in different kinds, names of Gods/spirits/mythical universes etc.

The contention that a specific tribe of Jewish people somehow finally "got it right" is absurd to me.

It is true that myths have been around a long time. They have certain characteristics that include coming into being at some unspecified time in the past, they are used to explain natural phenomena, they are not historical, there are no eye witnesses to them, etc. What is it about Jesus that makes you qualify it as a myth? Or Islam for that matter. Certainly there are myths, but to believe that Jesus is mythical or that Muhamed was mythical just doesn't have any basis in scholarship.

Venusian
12-15-07, 04:07 PM
Maybe cultural artefacts have polluted both religions, maybe man has polluted the doctrine through power and influence in order to benefit himself, or maybe like the US common law it has diverged as a natural result of different people being in charge when the doctrine is developed.

I realize that some believe, literally, that only people who believe in Jesus are going to heaven. This proposition, to me, seems somewhat arrogant and not correlated whatsoever to the complexities of the world. If its true, then the world is a sham.
that doesn't answer my question. why would i believe something i believed wasn't true or wasn't the best truth?

Tracer Bullet
12-15-07, 04:16 PM
that doesn't answer my question. why would i believe something i believed wasn't true or wasn't the best truth?

Sex?

Venusian
12-15-07, 05:06 PM
hmm...i think i might fake a belief for that reason, but i guess not since my conversion hasn't led to any sex for me :(

darkessenz
12-15-07, 05:38 PM
that doesn't answer my question. why would i believe something i believed wasn't true or wasn't the best truth?

Socialization? Stability? Peace of mind? Sleep at night? Conformity? The COINCIDENTAL fact that it happens to be the dominant religion in the country in which live? (presuming you are in the USA).

Or it could be that you investigated ALL of the religions, of both the past and present, and are convinced that this one is the only one that is metaphysically possible (and is in fact true)

OR: There could be a middle ground...but of course that requires a little flexibility on dogma as to what the metaphysical truth of the universe is.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 05:41 PM
Of course framing it like "truth/untruth" is dogmatic to begin with. Religions are more then truth statements about the world, but are in fact cultures themselves, grounded in the people who came up with the religion. Framing it as true/not true doesn't do justice to the diversity of religions and beliefs that exist in the world.

darkessenz
12-15-07, 05:43 PM
It is true that myths have been around a long time. They have certain characteristics that include coming into being at some unspecified time in the past, they are used to explain natural phenomena, they are not historical, there are no eye witnesses to them, etc. What is it about Jesus that makes you qualify it as a myth? Or Islam for that matter. Certainly there are myths, but to believe that Jesus is mythical or that Muhamed was mythical just doesn't have any basis in scholarship.

Jesus=possibly a guy who lived (i don't really know whether or not).

Mohommad=almost certainly a guy who lived

They both have myths associated with them. Jesus's myth is the possibility that he died, was resurrected, and went to heaven (and in the process instantly destroyed the old order of the universe, freeing man from sin).

I don't really know much about M. But I am sure he has his own miracles and stories.

GoldenJCJ
12-15-07, 06:43 PM
So....five pages and the answer is strawberry cheesecake?

darkessenz
12-15-07, 08:10 PM
So....five pages and the answer is strawberry cheesecake?

Burritos

GoldenJCJ
12-15-07, 10:54 PM
I guess you haven't seen The Secret yet!
What is it? You can whisper it in my ear.

kvrdave
12-16-07, 01:30 AM
Jesus=possibly a guy who lived (i don't really know whether or not).

Mohommad=almost certainly a guy who lived


I wonder what you base that on. Mohammad is recorded in the Qu'ran, but if you look at the history of that, it is 5th hand knowledge in how it was written and put together.

Jesus, on the other hand, doesn't even have a question as to his existance amoung the vast majority of historical scholars, including those that don't believe he was who he claimed to be. Even the skeptics mentioned in this thread have given theories to explain the conversion of Paul, the appearances after the resurrection, what happened to the body of Jesus, etc., but they don't question whether he existed. Freke, and the other Jesus Myth guy do, but they quote books from the early 1900s and pagan similarities that can be dated to around 150 ac, but mostly the 4-5th century. There is more historical evidence to the existance of Jesus than there is for Ceasar. WHat we know of Julius Ceasar comes from a funaral enscription and two other writers that date to around 300 years after he died. Similar dating for Alexander the great. There is very little about them and none of it dates to within 200 years of them, but the idea that Jesus may not have even been real is in question? I don't see how given all the scholars that believe in his reality, but still disbelieve in his divinity.

People are certainly free to believe what they want, but they should at least recognize that they don't do so based on scholarship. The idea of Jesus as a myth is barely 100 years old. One would think if there was any truth to it, someone in antiquity would have put forth the idea.

darkessenz
12-16-07, 10:08 AM
Certainly he is an important figure in the development of western civ., maybe THE most important. Whether he actually existed almost seems to be a secondary point now.

But I will even assume he did exist. I will even assume that he died on the cross. I don't believe he was raised, but even presuming that something miraculous happened, I simply don't believe that his death transformed the metaphysical state of affairs between me and God.

argh923
12-16-07, 10:21 AM
Based on the fact that nearly every human group, since before civilization, has come up myths and gods and spirits to interact with, explain the world with, and enrich their lives with. Literally thousands and thousands of people have believed in different kinds, names of Gods/spirits/mythical universes etc.

The contention that a specific tribe of Jewish people somehow finally "got it right" is absurd to me.

Bingo.

Mrs. Danger
12-16-07, 11:02 AM
If my belief system says things that are opposite of others, how can they both be faces of the same reality?

Because God is MAGICAL. Duh!

dork
05-13-08, 12:40 PM
Will this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080513/wl_uk_afp/britainreligionsciencejewseinstein;_ylt=AjKyFOW0FPndfmYcz8U16Tas0NUE) put an end to believers using Einstein as a character witness for God?

Groucho
05-13-08, 12:45 PM
Will this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080513/wl_uk_afp/britainreligionsciencejewseinstein;_ylt=AjKyFOW0FPndfmYcz8U16Tas0NUE) put an end to believers using Einstein as a character witness for God?You mean this quote (from the article):"The word God is for me...the Bible."

Brian Shannon
05-13-08, 01:00 PM
How to get to heaven?

Whose version?

kvrdave
05-13-08, 01:09 PM
Will this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080513/wl_uk_afp/britainreligionsciencejewseinstein;_ylt=AjKyFOW0FPndfmYcz8U16Tas0NUE) put an end to believers using Einstein as a character witness for God?

Well that's it, then. Without Einstein, I expect Christianity to crumble in 3 months.

dave-o
05-13-08, 01:12 PM
Can we get an update form the OP on if he got into heaven?

imperator505
05-13-08, 01:36 PM
Well that's it, then. Without Einstein, I expect Christianity to crumble in 3 months.
No worries. There's plenty more to choose from out there. Some are a bit more "out there" than others of course.

You might like to consider this little gem. Seems to be a nice religion. Well established. Lots of scripture to pore over, and even has a sect which eschews the wearing of clothes. Here you go...

Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism)

NB All religions are either true or untrue. No warranty as to the metaphysical truth or otherwise of this religion is given, either express or implied. If you are not fully satisfied with your new religion return your faith, unused, in the original packaging within seven days for a full refund of your soul. This does not affect your statutory rights to hold no religious views. Kharma not included.

Raul3
05-13-08, 06:34 PM
can I have a link to the thread where he says he slept with his sister in law?

Nick Danger
05-13-08, 08:53 PM
Good troll. The OP never returned, but the thread was resurrected six months later.

The answer is: either become a martyr for the correct sect, or achieve enlightenment and become one with the correct God. I don't think any other kinds of religion have a concept of heaven.

Nick Danger
05-13-08, 08:57 PM
can I have a link to the thread where he says he slept with his sister in law?

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8353235&postcount=37

Dr Mabuse
05-13-08, 09:08 PM
1e0EQlQXoEo

superdeluxe
05-13-08, 09:14 PM
I'm sure your brother will speak well on your behalf.

beesonosu
05-13-08, 11:22 PM
I'm not a theologian and sometimes I'm not even that great of a Catholic (Christian). From my understanding, Heaven can be achieved by the sacrament of baptism from fire, desire or water.

Fire = living a lifestyle that promotes unity, diversity, love and justice, commonly used to describe martyrdom for one's beliefs in the overly dramatic phrase "baptism of blood"
Example: Gandhi
Obligatory Gandhi Quotes:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time."

"I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian."

Desire = ability to have an open mind about God, true desire to accept the grace of God

I'm obviously no theologian and baptism of desire can and has been terribly misconstrued over the years. It entails the controversial subject of "limbo" and babies who die before receiving baptism by water. I would also include people who never had the opportunity. Basically, the theory of limbo never entered the dogmatic defintions of the Roman Catholic Church.
From the Vatican website:
Theological Understanding of the Topic (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html)

Water = the sacramental act of baptism.

Since this act is commonly done soon after childbirth, I believe that the this act grants sanctifying grace to the child but not acceptance of that grace. This act "washes away" original and personal sin and is an acceptance into the "royal priesthood". In a way it is also a communal "agreement" in which the family, community and church are given the responsibility to cultivate acceptance up to the point of the other two sacraments of initiation: the Eucharist and Confirmation.

Okay, so that was long-winded, probably was full of errors and accomplished nothing. :) So I'll conclude with my own humble and inconsequential beliefs. There are many ways to reach God. I don't think anyone can truly fathom God. Using your beliefs, whether it be faith-based or completely void of any faith/religion, to justify or bolster your own ideals/idea(s) and diminish any belief of others is wrong. This sounds like it runs counterpoint to the "tradition" of evangelism. Maybe it does, I don't have all the answers. Humans are aware, they are unique, and I'd like to think that everyone has a purpose on this earth. I believe that God is in everyone and that every stranger I meet is a gift from God - even though I fail miserably at recognizing this at times. Like when driving in traffic! It's entirely possible that everyone goes to heaven and I'd welcome that. Obviously no one has all of the answers - that's the glorious mystery of life. I hope I didn't offend anyone as that was not my purpose.

kvrdave
05-14-08, 02:06 AM
:lol: I am much more narrowminded than that.

I could believe that every religion is wrong long before I could believe every religion is right.

Bah, I don't feel like getting back into this. :lol:

orangecrush
05-14-08, 10:00 AM
How to get to heaven?
Well, one thing is for sure. Whoever developed the Frontier(s) ad will not be getting into heaven.

Mopower
05-14-08, 10:22 AM
We were getting pretty close to heaven until this thread got bumped.

movielib
05-14-08, 10:52 AM
Well, one thing is for sure. Whoever developed the Frontier(s) ad will not be getting into heaven.
:lol::up: