Blu-ray or HD DVD - need to decide asap!

[joe-dvd-man2]

I have about 500 dvds in my collection, and I'm going to make the switch to one of the high def formats. I really don't care about the tech stuff, because I've seen both and they both look/feel the same. I just don't want to get stuck buying 50 new discs for a format that gets abandoned.

I've been checking a site eProductWars (http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/) daily, and though blu-ray is still in the lead, it definitely doesn't feel like who is going to win is close to being decided. I also look at the top sellers (http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/hd-dvd.cfm) for hd-dvd, and I'm psyched about transformers, but I don't want a relatively small thing to overly influence my decision.

So my question is - help!

Joe

[mzupeman2]

It sounds like you're looking for an answer as to which is the safer buy, aka, which one will probably survive.

There's an HD thread in here already, and even an HD forum.

BUT, it all boils down to what you want to spend. If money may be a deciding factor, then HD-DVD, if not, then it's all up in the air. The next thing to consider if money isn't the factor, is basically what titles you may want on one side over the other, based on what's already released and what may come in the future. Nobody can answer those things for you, but you.

[canaryfarmer]

Go with the format that has the most movies you enjoy. Neither side is going to back down any time soon.

[madcougar]

Feel the same?

[mdc3000]

Yeah, I consider both to be on equal footing at this point and love them both... check out what's out on HD and Blu-ray and look at the holiday schedule and pick one - then enjoy movies and don't worry 'who wins'...regardless you'll always have some good looking HD movies.

[DVD Josh]

Your chances of buying 50 discs for a format that will be abandoned is equally good for both.

[Peep]

Blu-ray.

[JLBkret]

In my opinion if you can afford the price purchase the combo unit that plays both HD-DVD and the Blue Rays. That way you can play both of them, also many movies are only on one format, so this way you can buy the movies you want. I do believe the combo units are under $1000 now.

[baracine]

Read this essay - if you have time of course: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/articles/blu-ray-hd-dvd.htm

[The Bus]

I would pick HD DVD simply because the hardware is cheaper. You can get a very good player for $200 or spend more if you want a better one. In time, you will want to get a BD player as well.

I would NOT get a combo player. As of right now, there is no "true" combo player that is future-proof, that is, that plays HD DVD and BD to spec.

As far as BD players, my understanding is that the PS3 is still the best option. A $400 version of the machine will be released in November.

For $600, you can play both formats. That's pretty good in my book. :up:

[canaryfarmer]

For $600, you can play both formats. That's pretty good in my book. :up:

Considering I can play all dvds from all regions on my Philips player (which cost me $50), that price is actually a huge block to my upgrading to HD formats. That's a lot of money. Plus, I don't have room for two separate HD players, my cable box, my tivo and my wii.

[droidguy1119]

Blu Ray. You could also go to Best Buy and get credit/6m financing and get both.

[Steve Phillips]

The second gen LG combo player and Samsung's combo player are both being touted as fully compliant with all capabilities of the HD DVD and Blu-ray formats. Of course, neither one is out RIGHT NOW, but both are due within a few weeks. Of course until they actually street there is a possibility of more delays. Crutchfield's latest catalog has the Samsung Combo player listed for $799.

If you haven't already bought a player in one format or the other, you could wait a little longer, read some reviews on the combo units and see what you think. You know more combo units are coming later as well.

HD-DVD players wilth excellent upscaling and what, 9 free movies? for $200 are a pretty safe bet though.

[SasquatchHunter]

my best advice as someone who personally bought in to the hi-def formats way too soon is to just wait it out for a winner. Not a format that is currently winning in sales but I mean the other format is totally dead and gone and one of the formats starts to become WAY more mainstream than it currently is.

I beg you just to wait. Save your money and just buy sdvd movies for another couple years. i wish I hadn't bought into hi-def yet. The whole thing is a mess and very frustrating.

[mdc3000]

^while rational, I have to say that's terrible advice and won't help the situation at all... I can never go back to SD....

[Hank1215]

^while rational, I have to say that's terrible advice and won't help the situation at all... I can never go back to SD....

That means there there will be an enormous amount of movies you will never be able to view then. Lots of movies being released on DVD now, will never see an HD release. Heck, look at how may VHS movies that hasn't made it to DVD!

[kefrank]

The second gen LG combo player and Samsung's combo player are both being touted as fully compliant with all capabilities of the HD DVD and Blu-ray formats. Of course, neither one is out RIGHT NOW, but both are due within a few weeks.
according to a few different people at AVS, the LG BH200 has been spotted at some Best Buys this week.

[TheMovieman]

I decided that when I get into the HD game, I'm going with both formats. I'm going to buy the A2 or A3 HD-DVD player for $200-300 and then get a PS3 for $500 and have both formats, that is unless one of the combo players will be less than $800 (I've seen them around $1000).

[Big Worms]

Start with HD-DVD player. Within a few months you will end up picking up a Blu-Ray player.

[PhantomStranger]

My honest answer is that you're not gonna get an accurate view of the hi-def format war by asking this question here or really anywhere on the internet. Going by the polls conducted in the Hi-Def section of this site you're going to get a heavily biased answer in favor of HD-DVD. There are simply more hardcore supporters of HD-DVD in this particular forum.

Many will attempt to sway you to one side or the other but remember that it's in the interest of people already psychologically or financially invested in one format to push that format over the other. I myself have decided to commit to Blu-ray exclusively because I believe it to be the superior format for high definition content. The market will not support two dualing formats in the long run and the people that buy into the losing format will have buyer's remorse. Read all you can about the advantages and disadvantages of each format and be leary of spin from both sides.

[bboisvert]

Your chances of buying 50 discs for a format that will be abandoned is equally good for both.

This is the correct answer. Anyone who tries to "crystal ball" this answer is guessing at best.

All hyperbole aside, both formats produce virtually identical picture/sound quality. Both have nearly an identical number of titles released... and nearly an identical number of titles exclusive to the format.

HD DVD players are cheaper. Blu-ray is currently selling slightly better (roughly a 60/40 ratio).


Everything else is spin. No one can predict which format will "win". It's a crapshoot at this point and entirely possible that neither wins and they both find a niche of their own. There's unfortunately no easy answer to your question. I'd say to go with HD DVD, but that's simply because (a) it has a much cheaper entry level cost and (b) my own personally biases and preferences for that format.

[zombiezilla]

Go with the format that has the most movies you enjoy. Neither side is going to back down any time soon.

Yeah, so fuck the "format war". "The format that has the most movies you enjoy" will always be (drumroll please) ...STANDARD DVD.

[canaryfarmer]

Interesting interpretation of what I said. I didn't mean it that way, but I agree completely!

[shyguy1083]

I would go with Blu-Ray, but I think the best wasy to decide might be to spend the time looking at your movie collection. Break down the movies into studios that are exclusive to one format. You might see a trend as to what studio's movies you purchase the most of. Then again, you might not. But if you DO see a trend, it might make the decision to go to one format easier because you'll know the majority of movies you like are in/will be in that format.

[Zodiac_Speaking]

I'm in the same boat, OP. I have decided to get a Sony S300 Blu Ray. Why? Well, have the backing of some major studios that I like, as in LGF, Anchor Bay, DISNEY, and I seem to think those are exclusive and having just Uni and Paramount isn't that big of a deal.

Both are offering plenty of free movies and worse comes to pass, there's always a dual player or trading them in and buying into the other.

But I don't think that will be an option. I firmly believe BR will succeed due to numerous factors like studios, options, and titles, I'm going to be happy to buy a Hi Def player.

[Kocheese99]

I'm in the same boat, OP. I have decided to get a Sony S300 Blu Ray. Why? Well, have the backing of some major studios that I like, as in LGF, Anchor Bay, DISNEY, and I seem to think those are exclusive and having just Uni and Paramount isn't that big of a deal.

Both are offering plenty of free movies and worse comes to pass, there's always a dual player or trading them in and buying into the other.

But I don't think that will be an option. I firmly believe BR will succeed due to numerous factors like studios, options, and titles, I'm going to be happy to buy a Hi Def player.

I'd hold off on buying Blu-Ray until you can get a 2.0 profile machine. If you enjoy extras and bonus features then 1.0 machines will be worthless except for a ps3.

[Zodiac_Speaking]

I'd hold off on buying Blu-Ray until you can get a 2.0 profile machine. If you enjoy extras and bonus features then 1.0 machines will be worthless except for a ps3.

Really? I haven't heard about this. Is the new Sony S-500 player 2.0?

[Gerry P.]

If you're worried about one format going belly-up, then you might want to hold off for a year.

[DeputyDave]

I think after Christmas the picture may be much clearer. I'm picking up a 1080p TV this month but will be waiting unti January to pick a format.

I'm not saying the "war" will be decided this holiday season, but I predict one will outshine the other in sales, causing more people and companies to jump on the winning bandwagon.

[slop101]

I looked at it personally and went with the one that has the most exclusive titles that I like, which happened to be HD-dvd.

[Class316]

Wait for a PC drive that plays both.

Best solution.

[Peep]

WIth all the buy-1-get-1-free sales going on now for exclusive Sony and Disney Blu-rays, you'd be silly not to start buying them now.

[bookcase3]

I just read CNET's take on HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray and they recommend neither at this point in time. In short: "On the face of it, it's a split decision: HD DVD for price-conscious early adopters aware of the caveats; Blu-ray for PS3 gamers who want a "free" next-gen gaming system too. But we're sitting this one out for now--and we suggest that most HDTV owners do, too."

[IamLegend]

I bought a Toshiba HD on Amazon for $299 with the free movie deal(too bad I missed out on the lower prices). I am slowly selling my SD collection and "renting HD" movies on netflix along with SD movies. By the time I upgrade my 720P tv ,receiver and have sold much of my SDs-I will think things will be clearer. I'd go HD for now because you will get your feet wet with HD at little cost and see how much you like the format and enjoy your upscaled Sds for now. Meanwhile prices on Hi DEf will go down and technology will improve and maybe one format will emerge.

[JimRochester]

I jumped in to Blu Ray only because I wanted one and I heard Blockbuster was going to stock BluRay so that's the way I went. Under retail conditions I haven't seen a difference in side by side demonstrations. I'm not too worried about adopting the "wrong" format. Whatever I buy will last x number of years and chances are something new will be along by then anyway.

[tonyjg]

...... but I don't want a relatively small thing to overly influence my decision.

So my question is - help!

Joe

whats the rush ??

reading all the comments about the HD 'war' its almost like a case of 'penis envy' : my one's bigger than yours - we've got more than you - mine's gonna last longer.

can't see how your 'relatively small thing' fits in now :) :) lol

[megashock5]

Having finally purchased my first HD set this year, I'd love to jump into a higher resolution format - but I just can't see making the investment until there's a clear leader, and I don't want to have two machines just to cover all the studios.

I still can't believe the parties involved couldn't come to a single standard format. Hopefully dual-players will start becoming reasonably priced over the next year or so.

[aeron]

I still think Blu-ray will ultimately win the battle, but that may be a while off. There are even some predictions that both will survive...But, as long as both formats will be around a while, I agree with the users who say go with the format that has more titles you like...

For me, I went Blu-ray initially (via PS3) because there were more supporting major studios and because I wanted the gaming machine. Now, things have evened out a little more with Paramount/Dreamworks jumping to HD-DVD exclusive, and the battle has been prolonged. With no end in sight, I just dropped the dough to get an HD-DVD player this week...

Of course, if possible, you might want to wait until holiday sales! :-) But look at the titles available and upcoming titles. Also, note that HD-DVDs are region-free and there are quite a few imports available (more so than BR, I believe). They're expensive, but if you want titles like Equilibirum or the Island in high-def, that's the only way right now...

[Lateralus]

*sigh* I'm still using DIVX.

[chanster]

I prefer HD DVD right now, but if (and when) Blu Ray comes down in price, I would consider picking one up. Sony is keeping the prices of these drives artificially high...because..thats what Sony does. Fox is doing a good job of releasing catalog titles at $40 MSRP which is just ridiculous to me.


Right now, most of my collection is SD DVD and honestly I won't be upgrading a lot of titles. I did upgrade Top Gun because its one of my favorites, but everything else is optional. I picked up Transformers and Planet Earth, but I am renting the rest of new titles.

I got the A2 for the $190ish price + 3 free movies + 5 mail in movies..sold the 3 free movies to drop my cost down to about $145...and returned my upconverting Sony to Costco...so there was little upgrade cost to me.

[Suprmallet]

That means there there will be an enormous amount of movies you will never be able to view then. Lots of movies being released on DVD now, will never see an HD release. Heck, look at how may VHS movies that hasn't made it to DVD!

But every HD/BD player will play SDVD's and upconvert them. So HD owners can actually get more content, not less. Meanwhile, people who haven't upgraded are missing out on some amazing discs like Transformers and Hot Fuzz that contain features that aren't on the regular DVDs, as well as unbelievable picture and sound.

[shanester]

Once you go HD you never go back

[pro-bassoonist]

I'd hold off on buying Blu-Ray until you can get a 2.0 profile machine. If you enjoy extras and bonus features then 1.0 machines will be worthless except for a ps3.

This is a loaded statement to say the least. 1.0 machines will still be able to play non-1.1 extras as well as the main feature. Without a blip!

1.0 machines will not be responsive to 1.1 encoded extras.

And given the artificial 1.1 approach currently favored by WB I don't think grabbing one of the new 399 PS3 would be an insane move.

Ciao,
Pro-B

[Mr. Cinema]

But every HD/BD player will play SDVD's and upconvert them. So HD owners can actually get more content, not less. Meanwhile, people who haven't upgraded are missing out on some amazing discs like Transformers and Hot Fuzz that contain features that aren't on the regular DVDs, as well as unbelievable picture and sound.
Something dvd can't, and never will, be able to match.

[GizmoDVD]

This is a loaded statement to say the least. 1.0 machines will still be able to play non-1.1 extras as well as the main feature. Without a blip!

1.0 machines will not be responsive to 1.1 encoded extras.


So if you buy a Blu-ray disc and it has a special feature you want to watch, you better be sure you're Blu-ray player can actually play it. Who knows if studios will put a (1.1) after the feature to tell you if its "exclusive" to that profile

HD DVDs, on the other hand, will play every extra feature on every player dating back to the launch units from April of 2006. After October it is unknown if a player you buy TODAY will play certain features in November/December (or whenever studios start putting 1.1 extras out).

[Mr. Cinema]

Will the BD studios list 1.1 features on the back with a disclaimer that they won't work in 1.0 players? or will they just let the user find out for themselves?

[GizmoDVD]

Will the BD studios list 1.1 features on the back with a disclaimer that they won't work in 1.0 players? or will they just let the user find out for themselves?

That what I would like to know. So far they have not even discussed the fact that all current stand alones cannot be "upgraded" to 1.1.

[pro-bassoonist]

So if you buy a Blu-ray disc and it has a special feature you want to watch, you better be sure you're Blu-ray player can actually play it. Who knows if studios will put a (1.1) after the feature to tell you if its "exclusive" to that profile


Hence my note that you could get the PS3 If the much touted extra(s) should be your forte!

Suffice to say 1.0 players will not be "obsolete" as you proclaimed on this site.

As to labeling and compatibility when the time comes for the distribs to announce their presence I am positive a proper solution will be made.

Pro-B

[GizmoDVD]

Hence my note that you could get the PS3 If the much touted extra(s) should be your forte!

Suffice to say 1.0 players will not be "obsolete" as you proclaimed on this site.

As to labeling and compatibility when the time comes for the distribs to announce their presence I am positive a proper solution will be made.

Pro-B

As long as 1.0 stand alone players (i.e. all currently on the market) can not play 100% of the features of the disc, they should NOT be considered viable options to anyone. Same as players coming out next month with 1.1, because who knows if they can be upgraded to 2.0. Shame on the BDA for not educating the public buying these $400-$1,000 players that soon they may not get to go "Beyond High Definition" because of lack of finalized specs </rant>

And for the record, Ive agreed MANY times the PS3 is the ONLY way to go with Blu-ray. Its the safest option of something that will be updated on a regular basis and no need to wait for fixes to discs (i.e. Fantastic Four and Day after Tomorrow)

I'm really curious to see how the BDA respond to 1.1 features on discs and the backlash from uneducated (normal folk) who bought those players from Best Buy/Target/Circuit City etc..

[DVD Josh]

This is a loaded statement to say the least. 1.0 machines will still be able to play non-1.1 extras as well as the main feature. Without a blip!

1.0 machines will not be responsive to 1.1 encoded extras.

And given the artificial 1.1 approach currently favored by WB I don't think grabbing one of the new 399 PS3 would be an insane move.

Ciao,
Pro-B

I really wonder if you can even see any negatives to BD anymore Pro-B.

In addition to your blatant flaunting of this forum's well-stated stance on format bickering ("loaded statement"), you completely ignore that Giz is exactly right - owners of older non compliant 1.1 players will NOT be able to play 1.1 extras.

It doesn't make them paperweights, but it most certainly makes them obsolete.

[Suprmallet]

We can debate on whether or not 1.1 will make 1.0 players "obsolete" or not, but it is beyond debate that 1.1 will reduce the effectiveness of 1.0 players. A lot of people say they don't like extras and just want the movie, but the level of interactivity available to these formats has barely been hinted at and are only limited by the imaginations of the people who create the content.

You may not like the extras that appear on regular DVDs, but who's to say you wouldn't want to watch the movie with a live PiP window of the star or the director giving commentary and even talking via a chat client. This stuff is actually achieveable. But people who buy 1.0 players won't be able to get it unless the technology allows for an upgrade of the specs, which many don't. To try and downplay the idea that it doesn't matter what profile of player you buy is not a good idea. I know that I would have been very, very angry if my HD-A1 couldn't play the web content on Transformers. And I will be even more pissed if my PS3 can't be upgraded to take advantage of later profiles.

[DVD Josh]

We can debate on whether or not 1.1 will make 1.0 players "obsolete" or not, but it is beyond debate that 1.1 will reduce the effectiveness of 1.0 players. A lot of people say they don't like extras and just want the movie, but the level of interactivity available to these formats has barely been hinted at and are only limited by the imaginations of the people who create the content.

You may not like the extras that appear on regular DVDs, but who's to say you wouldn't want to watch the movie with a live PiP window of the star or the director giving commentary and even talking via a chat client. This stuff is actually achieveable. But people who buy 1.0 players won't be able to get it unless the technology allows for an upgrade of the specs, which many don't. To try and downplay the idea that it doesn't matter what profile of player you buy is not a good idea. I know that I would have been very, very angry if my HD-A1 couldn't play the web content on Transformers. And I will be even more pissed if my PS3 can't be upgraded to take advantage of later profiles.

Thank you for this SM. An intelligent and reasoned comment.

[chanster]

Suffice to say 1.0 players will not be "obsolete" as you proclaimed on this site.

As to labeling and compatibility when the time comes for the distribs to announce their presence I am positive a proper solution will be made.


I'm sorry to pile it on here, but this post is just ridicolous. You buy a Blu Ray movie, you should EXPECT to be given access to whatever features the movie is offering.

Now these self-proclaimed consumer advocates (i.e. bits man) are saying blu-ray is the way to go. How the hell can something be the way to go if the players produced aren't going to be able access all the features on these discs???? Thats about as anti-consumer as you can go.

Now you can make up all kinds of elaborate lies and speculation..i.e. Warner working around 1.1 limits and such, but the truth of the matter is that eventually these 1.1 and 2.0 specs are going to be the final say in Blu Ray compatibility. For the early players well you are SOL sorry. I'm sorry I am not going to put my faith in distributors working out a solution, when Fox can't even produce discs that are compatible with players right now!

You buy one of these stand alone players and you are going to be SOL in 1 year...

[Anubis2005X]

This sounds kinda dumb, but I went with Blu-ray cause I've always like Sony's DVD players, reviews for BD playback on PS3 were excellent, and Casino Royale was being hyped. No regrets here...

[PhantomStranger]

As I said earlier in the thread, expect many of the HD DVD fans here to bring up spurious Blu-ray issues to try and dissuade potential owners going against their format(HD DVD) of choice. It's simply a marketing spin by online HD DVD fans trying to minimize sales of Blu-ray players.

The whole BD profiles issue is mostly moot, since the PS3 can and will be updated to 1.1 and eventually 2.0. With the PS3 making up most of the Blu-ray player base right now, virtually with one firmware release(possibly the upcoming PS3 firmware 2.0) most Blu-ray owners will become BD Profile 1.1 players overnight.

Anyone worried about being future-proof for the Blu-ray format should get the PS3(any model is fine).

[GizmoDVD]

As I said earlier in the thread, expect many of the HD DVD fans here to bring up spurious Blu-ray issues to try and dissuade potential owners going against their format(HD DVD) of choice. It's simply a marketing spin by online HD DVD fans trying to minimize sales of Blu-ray players.

The whole BD profiles issue is mostly moot, since the PS3 can and will be updated to 1.1 and eventually 2.0. With the PS3 making up most of the Blu-ray player base right now, virtually with one firmware release(possibly the upcoming PS3 firmware 2.0) most Blu-ray owners will become BD Profile 1.1 players overnight.

Anyone worried about being future-proof for the Blu-ray format should get the PS3(any model is fine).

...What you just said is that PS3 is the best and safest Blu-ray player around. Agreed. I think everyone can agree on that. However stand alones will not be able to handle Profile 1.1, which is a big deal. Period.

Shame on us "HD DVD Fanboys" for warning someone who is asking a question. I forgot how well the BDA is teaching customers the difference between profile...oh wait.

[mzupeman2]

I side with HD-DVD but I have no problem with anybody having any differing opinions on that. We're getting to that point where this thread will come into an HD vs BR debate and it shouldn't be.

Again, get whatever format has the better titles for you. But, granted, with the Blu-Ray issues mentioned, make sure you purchase a player that's going to be the most compatible with future releases. What's important is you watch the stuff that makes you happy, end of story. No matter what the format.

[dsa_shea]

The PS3 should really be the only Blu-Ray model offered at the present time. At least until the get all off the firmware issues resolved. I have not had one instance of problems playing Blu-Rays with my PS3. It all comes down to which particular movies you want. Get em both! Many of us on here did.

[Jim]

Gizmo, It's fair to bring up the point about the BD profiles and 1.1 extras, but your statements are much too dogmatic:

As long as 1.0 stand alone players (i.e. all currently on the market) can not play 100% of the features of the disc, they should NOT be considered viable options to anyone.Some people, maybe many people will not consider them viable options, but some early adopters are choosing them even knowing the profile issue. Many early adopters will probably spend far more over the years on Blu-ray software than the cost of a player. Some upgrade their players (be they DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-ray) fairly frequently anyway.

However stand alones will not be able to handle Profile 1.1, which is a big deal. Period.A better way to state that would be "stand alones will not be able to handle Profile 1.1 which is a big deal to some people." It's also not a big deal to some people. The "Period" makes it sound like an unquestionable fact.

[GizmoDVD]

Gizmo, It's fair to bring up the point about the BD profiles and 1.1 extras, but your statements are much too dogmatic:

Some people, maybe many people will not consider them viable options, but some early adopters are choosing them even knowing the profile issue. Many early adopters will probably spend far more over the years on Blu-ray software than the cost of a player. Some upgrade their players (be they DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-ray) fairly frequently anyway.

A better way to state that would be "stand alones will not be able to handle Profile 1.1 which is a big deal to some people." It's also not a big deal to some people. The "Period" makes it sound like an unquestionable fact.

Its funny. You make it seem like the only people who buy Blu-ray and HD DVD are people who belong to DVDTalk, AVS, HTF etc. What about the average folk who knows nothing of these issues? How do you think they will feel when they can't watch that special feature on BLANK movie because that $600 Samsung player that the Best Buy rep sold them as "advanced technology etc" can't handle it? I'm going to assume the average folk is not going to replace there $600 Blu-ray Player with a $300 several months later. They should be a viable option for a few years. Amazing how the A1 can still play everything 100% a year and a half later.

[Big Worms]

As I said earlier in the thread, expect many of the HD DVD fans here to bring up spurious Blu-ray issues to try and dissuade potential owners going against their format(HD DVD) of choice. It's simply a marketing spin by online HD DVD fans trying to minimize sales of Blu-ray players.

The whole BD profiles issue is mostly moot, since the PS3 can and will be updated to 1.1 and eventually 2.0. With the PS3 making up most of the Blu-ray player base right now, virtually with one firmware release(possibly the upcoming PS3 firmware 2.0) most Blu-ray owners will become BD Profile 1.1 players overnight.

Anyone worried about being future-proof for the Blu-ray format should get the PS3(any model is fine).
This forum is one of the most neatural forums on HD media I am registered to. Heck they don't even have a Blu section and a HD-DVD section like everyone else.

[pro-bassoonist]

As long as 1.0 stand alone players (i.e. all currently on the market) can not play 100% of the features of the disc, they should NOT be considered viable options to anyone.

I am sorry I have to disagree with you yet again. There is no such limit on current standalone players which mandates that ALL features must be playable.

In fact, I find it very strange that some long-time users on this forum tend to make definitive statements without taking past events into consideration. Allow me to refresh your memory with an interesting fact:

Independence Day-5 Star SE (Silver cover/double case) was initially released by FOX on SDVD on 6/27/2000. To this day the easter-egg, the one where you must punch in the numbers/dates, so you could access the extended scene(s) through the controller is unaccessible via my old Phillips DVD player. I could access the easter egg on my SONY but not on the Phillips.

I can dig up some of the past threads on this issue to show you that there were other machines that couldn't access it either.

So, according to your logic above these players should have never been released on the market. Yet, in 2000 it was widely accepted that SDVD machines were "finalized". In other words, you could argue that the technical specifications with HD and SDVD present different issues but at the end, in my opinion, the effect any such issue is likely to have on the consumer is similar. Hence my conviction that if you are on the market for a full future-proof player then you go with the PS3. If you are informed and not concerned with 1.1/2.0 profiles, just as I am, then you proceed and purchase whatever fits your style.

It is very simple really. It comes down to reading, learning, and making an intelligent decision. To sum it all up I would be more concerned if there was not a single player on the market that could be upgraded. As the PS3 (as well as other manufactures prepping 1.1 machines) is here to stay all you have to do is choose.

Pro-B

[pro-bassoonist]

I I'm sorry I am not going to put my faith in distributors working out a solution, when Fox can't even produce discs that are compatible with players right now!


It is rather sad that you still can not grasp the fact that the compatibility issue had absolutely nothing to do with FOX. It concerned two hardware manufacturers.

Pro-B

[Suprmallet]

I think there's a difference between an isolated easter egg that may not work on every single machine versus an entire set of advertised extras that are guaranteed not to work on almost every machine produced to date.

Actually, it's funny you mention Fox, because the Independence Day issue seems to be very similar to the issue they had with Rise of the Silver Surfer and Day After Tomorrow not working on some Blu-ray players. But those can be fixed. Once any studio makes a Blu-ray disc that requires 1.1 or 2.0 to play, it diminishes the usable capabilities of players built before those specs were finalized that don't or can't get upgraded.

So are all 1.0 players 100% useless? No. But they're not 100% useful, either. I think this is something that is very much worth mentioning to someone who is deciding how best to get into the HD game. We shouldn't be telling people "Buy any player at all, it's totally fine" and try to sweep later profiles under the rug.

I think this whole line of conversation can be best summed up like so:

If you want a future-proof Blu-ray player, get a PS3. If you even think you may at some point want to use any special feature that requires specs later than 1.0, get a PS3. If you're 100% positive that you will only ever use Blu-ray to watch the movies, get whatever you want.

[chanster]

Independence Day-5 Star SE (Silver cover/double case) was initially released by FOX on SDVD on 6/27/2000. To this day the easter-egg, the one where you must punch in the numbers/dates, so you could access the extended scene(s) through the controller is unaccessible via my old Phillips DVD player. I could access the easter egg on my SONY but not on the Phillips.

WOW. YOU COULD NOT ACCESS AN EASTER EGG on a DVD..that sure is a great comparision between the kind of features YOU KNOW will be on Blu Ray with the upcoming and heavily promoted. Never mind that the fact the "feature" was an easter egg, but probably had due with the fact that the problem wasn't with the DVD spec itself bur rather a simple IR deficiency with the remote/player. - yes that is definitely the same as the Blu Ray 1.0/1.1/2.0 fiasco. Intellectual dishonesty at its finest!

[pro-bassoonist]

:
If you want a future-proof Blu-ray player, get a PS3. If you even think you may at some point want to use any special feature that requires specs later than 1.0, get a PS3. If you're 100% positive that you will only ever use Blu-ray to watch the movies, get whatever you want.

This isn't too far off where I stand on the issue.

The correction I would add is that 1.1 encoded discs will still offer a substantial amount of extras that would play just fine on your 1.0 player. The one, or two (extra bits), of 1.1 material I view as the web-enhanced ROM supplemental material(s) certain distribs favored during SDVD - you could play 90% of the extras with the rest accessible through your PC. Given that BR has a much bigger potential any "what ifs" at this point are simply speculations, perhaps viable, but speculations nevertheless as the format has not matured.

The rest I agree with.

Pro-B

[Suprmallet]

I think the release of Transformers has shown us just how fast the new untapped portions of these formats can grow. Don't assume that 1.1 and 2.0 won't be heavily exploited upon finalization. Again, even if you're mildly interested in some of the potential applications of later profiles, it doesn't make sense to get a 1.0 player.

[pro-bassoonist]

....that sure is a great comparision between the kind of features YOU KNOW will be on Blu Ray with the upcoming and heavily promoted.

Actually I don't. But you seem to be well informed. Perhaps you could point me to your source? We could have a debate!

As to intellectual dishonesty, I have put my thoughts in words that reflect precisely what I find to be of importance to my viewing preference(s).

Pro-B

[chanster]

I'm sorry I don't have fantastic sources on Blu-Ray Forums, nor do I sit around and translate Spanish press releases which states that Blu-Ray sold 200 units in Spain for the year 2007 but common sense tells me that if a company spends money to develop Blu Ray 2.0 spec, they aren't going to sit around and do nothing with it.

And its interesting to note you have not refuted the point of my post which is whatever problems you were having with an EASTER EGG had nothing to due with the DVD spec itself, but rather an IR "problem"

[chanster]

Hence my note that you could get the PS3 If the much touted extra(s) should be your forte!

Suffice to say 1.0 players will not be "obsolete" as you proclaimed on this site.

As to labeling and compatibility when the time comes for the distribs to announce their presence I am positive a proper solution will be made.

Pro-B

Since you are so into sources all of sudden, Please name your source for the above bolded part of your quote. Also identify what you consider a "proper solution" Does "proper" mean labeling something as Blu Ray 1.1 or 2.0 so all the suckas who bought 1.0 will know that they are SOL with that feature.

Is that a proper solution? I don't think so, I think if you buy an Blu-Ray or HD-DVD you should be able to utilize the features of said Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

[pro-bassoonist]

I'm sorry I don't have fantastic sources on Blu-Ray Forums, nor do I sit around and translate Spanish press releases which states that Blu-Ray sold 200 units in Spain for the year 2007 but common sense tells me that if a company spends money to develop Blu Ray 2.0 spec, they aren't going to sit around and do nothing with it.

I have already addressed the topic of referring to non-English articles/information in another thread. For the record I don’t sit around and translate: I am fluent in four languages and reading Spanish is something I do regularly. I frequent a number of forums where I like to read and learn from others who may not be fluent in English. I am sorry you have such a negative attitude towards anything non-English (written or spoken).


And its interesting to note you have not refuted the point of my post which is whatever problems you were having with an EASTER EGG had nothing to due with the DVD spec itself, but rather an IR "problem"

I don't feel I have to refute anything. I believe the example I gave speaks for itself.


Since you are so into sources all of sudden, Please name your source for the above bolded part of your quote.

I have. In another thread. Perhaps the more suitable course of action here for you would have been to first research the topic, and my reasoning for stating it as a fact, before challenging its veracity.

To the second point: currently all BR discs are properly marked and labeled by software manufacturers to reflect compatibility. (On the back of each case you will clearly see a warning that BR content is only compatible with BR hardware, and not SDVD). This sets a precedent, hence my earlier remark. When 1.1 content becomes available I expect a similar practice of recognition to be adopted.

Ciao,
Pro-B

[chanster]

(On the back of each case you will clearly see a warning that BR content is only compatible with BR hardware, and not SDVD). This sets a precedent

Irrelevant. Marking compatibility between standard DVD and Blu Ray has nothing to do with marking compatiblity betweent Blu Ray 1.1 and 2.0. And if it does, I congratulate you on admitting that Blu Ray 1.1 and 2.0 are so different that that it should be compared to the difference in compatibility between SDVD and Blu Ray...which tells me you acknowledge that 2.0 is essentially a different piece of hardware from 1.0 marked Blu Ray players.

[Burnt Thru]

Shame on us "HD DVD Fanboys" for warning someone who is asking a question. I forgot how well the BDA is teaching customers the difference between profile...oh wait.
perhaps some posters here should also be bringing up the potential incompatability of triple layer hd dvd discs with the current toshiba hd dvd players?

[vjack99]

I just read CNET's take on HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray and they recommend neither at this point in time. In short: "On the face of it, it's a split decision: HD DVD for price-conscious early adopters aware of the caveats; Blu-ray for PS3 gamers who want a "free" next-gen gaming system too. But we're sitting this one out for now--and we suggest that most HDTV owners do, too."

Every professional write-up of this issue I have read draws the same conclusion. It seems that the only place to currently find recommendations for either format is among enthusiasts. This tells me that it is probably smart to wait unless one wants a PS3 for gaming, in which case, going with Blu-ray might make sense. Unfortunately, most of the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 comparisons I've read (for gaming) pick the 360 as the clear winner.

[vcuram]

Every professional write-up of this issue I have read draws the same conclusion. It seems that the only place to currently find recommendations for either format is among enthusiasts. This tells me that it is probably smart to wait unless one wants a PS3 for gaming, in which case, going with Blu-ray might make sense. Unfortunately, most of the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 comparisons I've read (for gaming) pick the 360 as the clear winner.

You do realize that there's an HD-DVD add-on for the 360, don't you?

[Mr. Cinema]

Each format has well over 300 titles and that number will continue to rise after Q4 and through 2008. I don't think it's a risk to pick either side at this point. I orignally thought the only sole winner would have been Blu-ray, since all but 1 studio supported them. After Paramount's switch, I believe we'll be seeing both of these for quite some time. As prices drop on hardware and more titles are released, each side will have built up a large customer base and there won't be any reason to drop 1 of them.

The longer people wait to jump in, the slower HD adoption happens, which could affect studios' intentions of digging into their vaults to re-release on HD. If you have the money, and have a HDTV, I see no reason not to make the switch. Either format player will play ALL of your dvds, so no need to replace them. However, eventually, when you do make the switch, all of these dvds that are being bought now will end up getting re-bought later, so why not just get the HD version now?

I watched Transformers last night and it looked and sounded amazing. If you really love films, then I think it makes sense that you would want to see them in the highest quality available, which HD DVD/Blu-ray both offer.

I used to be really worried about the format war between the HD camps, but now since I think both will be around, the war needs to shift towards dvd. We need more people to realize the benefits of HD and start moving towards HD. DVD was revolutionary, but it's limited. It can't offer what HD DVD/Blu-ray does, high quality sound and picture.

[matome]

perhaps some posters here should also be bringing up the potential incompatability of triple layer hd dvd discs with the current toshiba hd dvd players?

*crickets*

I was waiting to see if anyone would mention that, seeing all this 1.0 & 1.1 stuff being thrown around as the end all. Guess HD-DVD is not a finalized spec either, huh? Maybe Gizmo and chanster should recommend no one buy HD-DVD at all since the MOVIE itself will not play, not just some little PIP window.

And tell us why Transformers did not have a lossless track? Never seem to see that brought up either. Hint: lack of disc space.

Since it's implied that we prize extras over movie content and should not buy players because of it, what about the Harry Potter 5 BD that will have the extras in HD when the HD-DVD won't? How about the Shoot 'Em Up BD will have PIP while the HD-DVD won't, faked or not. Wouldn't you want to have the best presentation of extras? Even if they have IME, they should be able to offer the other stuff up in HD as well, no? If HD-DVD 30gb of space is limiting the inclusion of extras/lossless audio and God knows what else, shouldn't that be a factor? Apparently not.

As expected, this thread would turn into a bashfest. So where is this one post "new member" that started this thread anyway?

[dsa_shea]

This thread quickly went to hell in a handbasket.

[RichC2]

What'd you really expect?

[Jim]

Its funny. You make it seem like the only people who buy Blu-ray and HD DVD are people who belong to DVDTalk, AVS, HTF etc.How did you get that interpretation from my post? I specifically wrote "some people" and "many people" because there are very few absolutes. No where did I even mention DVDTalk, AVS, or HTF.

[Mr. Cinema]

Most of the reviews I've read on Transformers still gave it the highest rating for audio. I don't think we'd see a TL disc unless they are confident it would play on all generation machines. Since Toshiba prides itself on the fact that every generation of their player can play all features on HD DVD discs, why should we doubt that wouldn't be the case for TL discs?

I think the point some are making with profile talk is this:

HD DVD and Blu-ray both can deliver 1080p picture.

HD DVD and Blu-ray both can deliver lossless sound.

Only HD DVD can deliver true interactive/web enabled features as of now. There's not 3 different sets of specs for HD DVD. For BD, you've got 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0. When we get to 2.0 features, are we going to see a long list on the back of the case stating

IME - 1.1 spec (will not work on 1.0 players)
Web Enabled BD-Live feature - 2.0 spec (will not work on 1.0 & 1.1 players)
and so on...?

[dsa_shea]

What'd you really expect?

A warp speed trip to hell.

[nodeerforamonth]

I'd hold off on buying Blu-Ray until you can get a 2.0 profile machine. If you enjoy extras and bonus features then 1.0 machines will be worthless except for a ps3.

I don't understand this. Why would one blu-ray machine not be able to play extras that another one could? What kind of "extras" are we talking about here? 3-D holograms or something?

[Jim]

I don't understand this. Why would one blu-ray machine not be able to play extras that another one could? What kind of "extras" are we talking about here? 3-D holograms or something?Web content and PiP are the primary things I think the current machines won't be able to play.

[vjack99]

You do realize that there's an HD-DVD add-on for the 360, don't you?

Of course. But the reviews I've read about it have been fairly poor. Unlike the PS3 which gets great reviews for Blu-ray, I do not see many people recommending the Xbox add-on for HD-DVD.

[kefrank]

*crickets*

I was waiting to see if anyone would mention that, seeing all this 1.0 & 1.1 stuff being thrown around as the end all. Guess HD-DVD is not a finalized spec either, huh? Maybe Gizmo and chanster should recommend no one buy HD-DVD at all since the MOVIE itself will not play, not just some little PIP window.

if the 51GB testing concludes that they are not playable on current HD DVD players, but they are approved for production anyway and studios decide to actually use them (a highly unlikely scenario), then you will have a valid counterpoint to the profile situation with blu-ray. until then, it is simply not comparable. no one has stated that 51GB HD DVDs are definitely coming at a certain date (or ever) or that players made before that date will not be compatible. to suggest otherwise on either of those points is pure speculation.

the blu-ray spec situation, on the other hand, requires no speculation. profile 1.1 features on BDs will not play on profile 1.0 players. the BDA is very clear on that.

my recommendation to the OP: get both formats.

[shanester]

Each format has well over 300 titles and that number will continue to rise after Q4 and through 2008. I don't think it's a risk to pick either side at this point. I orignally thought the only sole winner would have been Blu-ray, since all but 1 studio supported them. After Paramount's switch, I believe we'll be seeing both of these for quite some time. As prices drop on hardware and more titles are released, each side will have built up a large customer base and there won't be any reason to drop 1 of them.

The longer people wait to jump in, the slower HD adoption happens, which could affect studios' intentions of digging into their vaults to re-release on HD. If you have the money, and have a HDTV, I see no reason not to make the switch. Either format player will play ALL of your dvds, so no need to replace them. However, eventually, when you do make the switch, all of these dvds that are being bought now will end up getting re-bought later, so why not just get the HD version now?

I watched Transformers last night and it looked and sounded amazing. If you really love films, then I think it makes sense that you would want to see them in the highest quality available, which HD DVD/Blu-ray both offer.

I used to be really worried about the format war between the HD camps, but now since I think both will be around, the war needs to shift towards dvd. We need more people to realize the benefits of HD and start moving towards HD. DVD was revolutionary, but it's limited. It can't offer what HD DVD/Blu-ray does, high quality sound and picture.


very well said! :clap:

I made the switch the hd-dvd in August and I'm blown away by what I've seen so far just finished watching Alexander and it looked amazing!!

I've started ordering Blu-ray movies and plan on getting a Blu-ray player also around xmas time :thumbsup:

[pro-bassoonist]

until then, it is simply not comparable. no one has stated that 51GB HD DVDs are definitely coming at a certain date (or ever) or that players made before that date will not be compatible. to suggest otherwise on either of those points is pure speculation.



There is valid counterpoint. You just seem to ignore the fact that it is much more serious to solve.

The dilemma is whether you put the much touted extras via profile 1.1 on BR and have one player which will be upgraded to support it, AND consider the upcoming 1.1 players.

OR...

Begin trimming what could and couldn't fit on the disc due to space limitations (HDDVD).

The Paramount statement is quite revealing indeed. And that is I assume Matome was pointing.

Pro-B

[Elemental]

I've read waaaaaaay too many posts about HD-DVD discs that can't be properly played on their machines. That would drive me nuts, I mean, how many times does that happen with normal (new) DVD's ? Indeed. The start-up times for all hardware before you can watch your films on disc sounds horrible as well.
And boy does it blow that neither Blu Ray or HD DVD machines can play standard DVD's from all regions. So at the moment (Blu ray players being way too expensive) neither of the new formats sound exactly tempting.

[kefrank]

There is valid counterpoint. You just seem to ignore the fact that it is much more serious to solve.

The dilemma is whether you put the much touted extras via profile 1.1 on BR and have one player which will be upgraded to support it, AND consider the upcoming 1.1 players.

OR...

Begin trimming what could and couldn't fit on the disc due to space limitations (HDDVD).

The Paramount statement is quite revealing indeed. And that is I assume Matome was pointing.

Pro-B
I think you may assume too much. Matome was pointing out two separate issues in his post and I responded to the first one brought up (note the quoted text): the incompatibility comparison of 51GB HD DVD to BD profile 1.1.

the issue of space on current HD DVDs has been debated ad nauseum, so it's probably not worth re-hashing, but i will say two things:

-- paramount never made any official statement, as you have suggested. a reviewer claims someone from paramount said something to that effect at a media event, which is, at best, hearsay.

-- even if DD+ audio was chosen because of space limitations, the HD DVD had enough space to provide a fantastic, extremely well-reviewed presentation of the film and interactive extras that are still not possible on any Blu-ray player.

don't get me wrong. i recognize and appreciate the technical advantages that blu-ray has in disc capacity and max bitrate. i simply don't see the practical applications of those advantages as being nearly as important as they are often made out to be. the difference between 1.5MBs DD+ audio and lossless audio is practically indiscernable to most people's ears, so i'm not really concerned about the possibility of a tradeoff there. the potential improvement in picture quality from video encoded at a higher bitrate is negligible at best. those issues pale in comparison to the confusion and frustration of the blu-ray profiles for those of us who want the full interactive experience that hi-def media has to offer. and i say that as someone who is extremely eager to jump into blu-ray.

[The Bus]

Considering I can play all dvds from all regions on my Philips player (which cost me $50), that price is actually a huge block to my upgrading to HD formats. That's a lot of money. Plus, I don't have room for two separate HD players, my cable box, my tivo and my wii.

If you're waiting for a player to hit the $50 mark, you'll be waiting a couple of years. If your budget is that tight, HD DVD is really the only option, considering BD costs ~2x as much.

<hr>

Suffice to say 1.0 players will not be "obsolete" as you proclaimed on this site.

1.0 machines will not be responsive to 1.1 encoded extras.

These two statements directly contradict each other.

I personally don't see there being a problem with 1.0 and 1.1 players. The people who bought $1000 BD players at launch probably will not mind buying a $400 BD player once 1.1 is out in the wild in a player they like. Plus, we've know about this problem for a while so it's not like it just popped out of nowhere.

[Josh-da-man]

That both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are putting players on the market while they're still working out the specs is keeping me away from HD as much as the format war.

It's frankly ridiculous that Blu-Ray players are being pumped out while they're still working on the specs. 1.0/1.1/2.0? What happens when they get up to 3.0? And if the PS3 is the only player out there that will be compatible with all specs, why are they even letting standalone players on the market? Do they expect people to buy a new player every year if they didn't buy a gameing deck?

And I'm also alarmed about the prospect of triple layer HD-DVDs not being playable on current players. This shouldn't even be an option.

[dsa_shea]

Well I just encountered playback problems with Disc 2 of Mission Impossible III on my brand new HD-A30 player. Even with all of these updates it doesn't seem to solve these problems. Why does this shit have to be so difficult?

[GizmoDVD]

perhaps some posters here should also be bringing up the potential incompatability of triple layer hd dvd discs with the current toshiba hd dvd players?

Profile 1.1 had a deadline coming up in 11 days.
When is TL coming out? You have a date for that? This is simply a tactic Pro-Blu people use to try and soften to blow up their upcoming 1.1 mess. TL is not being used by any studio and and no movies are planned for it. From what some insiders have said on AVS, the TL is working fine on all 3 players and only a simple firmware update will be needed.

We know RIGHT NOW all stand alones can NOT play 1.1 features. PERIOD. Most players have no network connection and the others can't handle the required specs. Its not like they can just put an extra video processor inside of it.

[GizmoDVD]

Double Post.

[pro-bassoonist]

These two statements directly contradict each other.

I personally don't see there being a problem with 1.0 and 1.1 players. The people who bought $1000 BD players at launch probably will not mind buying a $400 BD player once 1.1 is out in the wild in a player they like. Plus, we've know about this problem for a while so it's not like it just popped out of nowhere.

I am sorry BUS but they don't!

As of this very moment PS3 is a 1.0 player. There is sufficient information pointing to the fact that PS3 will be 1.1 compatible via firmware upgrade. This exclusion alone refutes the "obsolete" theory GizmoDVD announced.

Furthermore, when someone notes that a generation of machines will be obsolete I take it as unable to play 1.1 encoded discs. Yet, it has been noted over and over again that aside from the 1.1 encoded bit of supplemental material the main feature and the rest of the non-1.1 extras will be accessible by 1.0 players just fine.

Pro-B

[pro-bassoonist]

. From what some insiders have said on AVS, the TL is working fine on all 3 players and only a simple firmware update will be needed.


Could you point me to the source of this announcement? I would like to see what insider has announced that only a firmware upgrade will be needed, and the three players in question.

Pro-B

[GizmoDVD]

I am sorry BUS but they don't!

As of this very moment PS3 is a 1.0 player. There is sufficient information pointing to the fact that PS3 will be 1.1 compatible via firmware upgrade. This exclusion alone refutes the "obsolete" theory GizmoDVD announced.

Furthermore, when someone notes that a generation of machines will be obsolete I take it as unable to play 1.1 encoded discs. Yet, it has been noted over and over again that aside from the 1.1 encoded bit of supplemental material the main feature and the rest of the non-1.1 extras will be accessible by 1.1 players just fine.

Pro-B

Notice how we always say "stand alone" players? Meaning everything that is NOT a PS3 system as that is hardly a stand alone system. Ive mentioned it before as has many others.

1.0 that cannot be upgraded to 1.1 makes it obsolete. Feel free to continue you're reasoning why, but regardless of what you say there will always be features that $1,000 Samsung Player last year can not play. That new Sharp player launched last week won't play 1.1 features.

As long as there is one feature that the the current stand alones can't play, it is now OBSOLETE. It has been passed by the newer 1.1 systems. Get you use it. Stop trying to rephrase and spin. This is a fact. As of TODAY, HD DVD and Blu-ray can both play all features. As of next month, Blu-ray will not. Period. I'm done arguing with you as its fairly clear where you stand and will not budge. I on the other hand, with many others, are format neutral. You are not. I am done. This is like 8 year olds bickering over who's father is stronger then the others.

[pro-bassoonist]

As long as there is one feature that the the current stand alones can't play, it is now OBSOLETE. It has been passed by the newer 1.1 systems. Get you use it. Stop trying to rephrase and spin. This is a fact.

Obviously you believe that your opinion is the one and only one that matters. Yet, it has been pointed out to you numerous times that you are fabricating facts to serve your own agenda. Here's tonymontana313's response to your "obsolete" theory, which as expected you ended up with another self-contradictory statement:

Post #101: General HDDVD News and Discussions Thread Part 2

Hmmm, I guess we both have different definitions of the word obsolete. You can still WATCH the movie with Profile 1.0 players while 1st gen Toshiba owners would be staring at a blank screen if they put a TL51gb disk in.

Your reply, post #103, same thread:

That is all 100% speculation at this point. TL51 may in fact work just fine with Gen1 players. We do know, however, that nearly all stand alone Blu-ray players will not be able to play certain features/extras etc.

Speculation? Well, that is just strange, very strange in fact. Because in another thread you went the opposite direction and assured everyone that these discs will in fact work just fine on ALL HDDVD players. If one would not know any better one would sure take your assurance as a fact.

Post # 261 from the Paramount/ Dreamworks go HDDVD exclusive thread:


GizmoDVD

Toshiba has been working on 45GB and 51GB for a while now. Once they are finished will this be an issue? Keep in mind these will also work on any and all HD DVD players released so far, so no need to upgrade to be able to watch/use special features unlike the other format.

These are some quite evolutionary statements, bringing a whole new meaning to the term "spinning".

Ciao,
Pro-B

[Suprmallet]

Perhaps the reason for his contradictory posts on the subject of TL50 HD DVDs is that we've heard at one time from a Toshiba insider that they may not work in current players, but he wasn't sure. Later, when the DVD Forum approved the specs of the discs, Toshiba made statements to the effect that they would work in all players currently out and coming out. I, for one, will believe it when I see it.


Meanwhile, I sincerely hope the OP has decided which way to go, because I'd say the last two pages have had nothing to do with what he asked for.

[Burnt Thru]

a lot of pointless bickering here. the simple reality is that neither format is finished tinkering with their specifications, just as dvd continued to upgrade their standard many years into their lifecycle. the difference appears to be that one format has anticipated this rolling upgrade pattern with the adoption of profiles, while the other has not. the process is simpler for hd dvd with only one manufacturer, and hence few real compatability problems to overcome, but the end effect (early devices becoming less useful in the course of time) may well end up being the same.

as to which standard to chose if your deciding right now that's a tough question. hd dvd decks are cheeper, while the ps3 is perhaps greater value for money (taking into account speed of use and the additional ability to play games, lacking as they are at the moment). the catalogues currently released are fairly analogous. prices are still too high for the average buyer. so it all comes down to what happens in the future, with regard to software releases, exclusivity agreements, and price drops. in the realm of highdef media it still pays to be a soothsayer!

[Mr. Cinema]

a lot of pointless bickering here. the simple reality is that neither format is finished tinkering with their specifications, just as dvd continued to upgrade their standard many years into their lifecycle. the difference appears to be that one format has anticipated this rolling upgrade pattern with the adoption of profiles, while the other has not. the process is simpler for hd dvd with only one manufacturer, and hence few real compatability problems to overcome, but the end effect (early devices becoming less useful in the course of time) may well end up being the same.

as to which standard to chose if your deciding right now that's a tough question. hd dvd decks are cheeper, while the ps3 is perhaps greater value for money (taking into account speed of use and the additional ability to play games, lacking as they are at the moment). the catalogues currently released are fairly analogous. prices are still too high for the average buyer. so it all comes down to what happens in the future, with regard to software releases, exclusivity agreements, and price drops. in the realm of highdef media it still pays to be a soothsayer!
I'm not agreeing with the bolded part. Blu-ray is not done tinkering with their specifications. HD DVD's specs are final and were set when they launched last April.

[Burnt Thru]

region coding and triple layer would disagree with you.

[dsa_shea]

I'm not agreeing with the bolded part. Blu-ray is not done tinkering with their specifications. HD DVD's specs are final and were set when they launched last April.

I'm not sure that I agree with you 100% either. If the specs were set in stone then why are there still some compatibility problems with certain movies and the need for new updates? Besides, I think that you could look at the specs not being set in stone as a plus if something to improve the system comes along in the near future and it probably will. All the Blu-Ray manufacturers need to do is implement a system that can be updated in all of their players across the board. This is the main reason that I advocate the purchase of a PS3 anytime that someone wants to get a Blu-Ray player. You cannot go wrong here. I have had zero problems with either of my PS3s playing any Blu-Rays, but I have already had some hiccups with my brand new Toshiba HD-A30 model playing some HD-Dvds. The price difference between the two is really negligible considering that the HD-A30 is for movies only and the PS3 reaches far beyond movies and games.

[mzupeman2]

They may never even incorporate triple layer. The quality of HD-DVD titles now are astounding and they don't really need another layer. I had no problem with having a 2 disc set on HD-DVD for Transformers, as we get it with regular DVD sets. Triple layer was a way to close the disc space gap between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but at this point in the game, that argument hardly comes up anymore, if ever. There are better things to contemplate when thinking of the format war than just disc space, as HD-DVD has proven that all that disc space isn't required to make something look amazing.

[dsa_shea]

They may never even incorporate triple layer. The quality of HD-DVD titles now are astounding and they don't really need another layer. I had no problem with having a 2 disc set on HD-DVD for Transformers, as we get it with regular DVD sets. Triple layer was a way to close the disc space gap between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but at this point in the game, that argument hardly comes up anymore, if ever. There are better things to contemplate when thinking of the format war than just disc space, as HD-DVD has proven that all that disc space isn't required to make something look amazing.

I would rather not have the triple layer discs if Universal has any part of it.

[Jim]

As far as Profile 1.0 standalones being obsolete, 'obsolete' is probably not the best word to use in this instance because it has several meanings. 1.1 machines will be replacing 1.0 machines "with something newer or better", which is one meaning of obsolete, but not the most commonly used. The more common usage is "no longer in general use" or "no longer in use". So both sides arguing whether 1.0 standalones will be obsolete or not are correct. Since the more common use, according to the dictionary, is "no longer in general use", coming up with a more precise word for 1.0 machines than 'obsolete' is probably a good idea unless the intent is to create FUD.

[GizmoDVD]

Could you point me to the source of this announcement? I would like to see what insider has announced that only a firmware upgrade will be needed, and the three players in question.

Pro-B

(Can we link to AVS?)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11906637&postcount=338

OK - I've waited about as long as I possibly can on this one! Too much pressure and PMs now, so I'll have to come clean. I hope my sources will not mind, as I held out as asked. I have tried to answer all PMs, so I'm sorry if I missed any.

Rumor: TL51 playing fine on 1st Gen XA1

My source is....... Engineer within HD DVD

Link - N/A

I have sent additional info to mods

Time frame til confirmation - Likely within 3 months

Your certainty level of confirmation[scale 1-10] - 9

Comments:

We all know by now that the 2nd and 3rd Gen HD DVD players are stated in various interviews to have no problem at all with TL51 discs said to be coming soon. However, there was an open question on the First Gen HD DVD players, the A1 and XA1, which use the identical first gen drive internally.

Well folks, They already have a standard XA1 playing TL51 discs just fine, and it was modified in firmware only. Both the drive and the player itself received firmware updates. The drive itself can be updated as part of the regular firmware download or CD, justas the player can be. All HD DVD drive feature PRML chips capable of 39 megabits per second, and the tables are also updated for allowable PRML combinations.

I am sure that there is more fine tuning and testing going on, but essentially, the question of backwards compatibility is answered. Of course, nothing is official till an official statement, but don't expect one until closer to CES in January.

I hope most of you understand that I had to hold this info back for as long as I could - much of what I said a while back was OK, but this one was special I have a good idea of what the first TL51 title may be, and the studio, but that is unconfirmed and would only cause problems for everyone if I started discussing it, but as I hear it, you will know in January if all goes well.

Again, all 2nd and 3rd Gen HD DVD players were never in doubt. Any of these will apparently play TL51 discs just fine. But it's nice to hear that they have the first Gen working in testing, since it bodes very well.

Again, just a rumor, but no more of a rumor then something paidgeek or peyton posts that you love to post here as "fact".

[GizmoDVD]

region coding and triple layer would disagree with you.

Region coding won't affect movies purchased in the USA from playing in the USA. No region coding is obviously nice, but it was never a promised spec by the DVD Forum.

TL, at this point, is still in developing stages. You are trying to compare something that may never come out with something (Profile 1.1) that will in 10 days. Don't.

[pro-bassoonist]

(Can we link to AVS?)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11906637&postcount=338


Again, just a rumor, but no more of a rumor then something paidgeek or peyton posts that you love to post here as "fact".

I should have guessed that it is Rdjam who made the announcement so before I echo Mallet's words above and we move on I must point that:

1. To the best of my knowledge rdjam is not an engineer. Paidgeek is.

2. I could go on and rip the statement apart as it is utterly contradictory (from the assuring confirmation for second generation machines and their compatibility with TL to the more lenient exit quote "apparently") as it is speculative (implying a chosen title).

Since you, however, are not the source of this announcement I will comment on it when the touched upon 3-month frame is over.

Ciao,
Pro-B

[GizmoDVD]

I should have guessed that it is Rdjam who made the announcement so before I echo Mallet's words above and we move on I must point that:

1. To the best of my knowledge rdjam is not an engineer. Paidgeek is.

2. I could go on and rip the statement apart as it is utterly contradictory (from the assuring confirmation for second generation machines and their compatibility with TL to the more lenient exit quote "apparently") as it is speculative (implying a chosen title).

Since you, however, are not the source of this announcement I will comment on it when the touched upon 3-month frame is over.

Ciao,
Pro-B

Not surprising you would discount him as you did the same with Amir who was in a much higher position then anyone. Wasn't it you who claimed that all 1.0 would be able to be "updated" to Profile 1.1 a few months ago? Or was that the rumor paidgeek was spreading around Blu-ray.com at the time?

Regardless, all these wonderful stand alone Blu-ray players will be obsolete soon. I am going to enjoy the explosion on various forums with "Where is the BLANK extras? I can't find it" with the response "Oh, it won't play on your machine. Works great on my SONY PS3."

[Suprmallet]

I'm pretty sure Pro-B said that the PS3 would get an upgrade, not every single player.

We're beating a dead horse. Let's move on.

[tonymontana313]

(Can we link to AVS?)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11906637&postcount=338



Again, just a rumor, but no more of a rumor then something paidgeek or peyton posts that you love to post here as "fact".


Please tell me you're not using what rdjam is saying as fact. He's not even an insider. He's the equivalent of beatboy for the red side. I'll take what paidgeeks says over rdjam since paidgeek actually has a hand in what goes down for BR.

[kefrank]

Please tell me you're not using what rdjam is saying as fact. He's not even an insider. He's the equivalent of beatboy for the red side. I'll take what paidgeeks says over rdjam since paidgeek actually has a hand in what goes down for BR.
agreed. rdjam's posts on avs are as fanatical as the crazier stuff i read on blu-ray.com.

also, i agree with the poster who said that "obsolete" is not an appropriate term to use for the blu-ray profile situation. at worst, you could call profile 1.0 players "crippled" - at best, "functionally limited."

[DVD Polizei]

The term for the Blu-ray situation is...not HD DVD. Functionally limited sounds like a term to describe a quadrapolegic prostitute.

[GizmoDVD]

Please tell me you're not using what rdjam is saying as fact. He's not even an insider. He's the equivalent of beatboy for the red side. I'll take what paidgeeks says over rdjam since paidgeek actually has a hand in what goes down for BR.

Other insiders have pretty much echoed what he said. Regardless, TL won't come to be if its not working with all players, including the A1. So if we see it, it works, if not, oh well.

[chanster]

I'm open to Blu Ray when the specs are finalized and the prices come down...I enjoy movies after all, not looking at my neato player...it really seems that some people have a pathological hate towards HD DVD and won't admit one damn thing wrong with Blu Ray or even give HD DVD a spin.....trying to debate people with such pathological hatred is pointless and a big waste of time...so feel free to post inane press releases or deny the obvious since I am retiring from debating this silly subject.

[dsa_shea]

I'm open to Blu Ray when the specs are finalized and the prices come down...I enjoy movies after all, not looking at my neato player...it really seems that some people have a pathological hate towards HD DVD and won't admit one damn thing wrong with Blu Ray or even give HD DVD a spin.....trying to debate people with such pathological hatred is pointless and a big waste of time...so feel free to post inane press releases or deny the obvious since I am retiring from debating this silly subject.

Why don't you give Blu-Ray a spin now although the "specs" haven't been finalized? In my opinion HD-Dvd and their players are nowhere near finalized although they want you to believe so. There are some great movies already out on Blu-Ray and some damn good special features on some of them. The movies play fine and the audio is outstanding on several of the Blu-Rays on the market. If you ask for some people to give HD-Dvd a shot then you to should give Blu-Ray a shot. Don't try and sell a man a shot of your preferred whiskey if you aren't willing to try his.

[GizmoDVD]

Why don't you give Blu-Ray a spin now although the "specs" haven't been finalized? In my opinion HD-Dvd and their players are nowhere near finalized although they want you to believe so. There are some great movies already out on Blu-Ray and some damn good special features on some of them. The movies play fine and the audio is outstanding on several of the Blu-Rays on the market. If you ask for some people to give HD-Dvd a shot then you to should give Blu-Ray a shot. Don't try and sell a man a shot of your preferred whiskey if you aren't willing to try his.

HD DVD is finalized.

:horse:

[Hammer99]

agreed. rdjam's posts on avs are as fanatical as the crazier stuff i read on blu-ray.com.

also, i agree with the poster who said that "obsolete" is not an appropriate term to use for the blu-ray profile situation. at worst, you could call profile 1.0 players "crippled" - at best, "functionally limited."No doubt. :lol:

[chanster]

Well, although I greatly appreciate the resolution of high def, I don't think it is a $400+ upgrade on a standard DVD player. (plus the cost of the movies themselves).

I got a HD A2 at a great price and it serves me to upconvert my standard DVDs. I'm happy, and I would consider a Blu Ray player if the price dropped in the mid to lower $200...I figure that will be happening sooner rather than later and can wait..for both the price and specs to come out to my liking.

If HD DVD dies, I paid no more for my player than I did for my upconverting DVD player (I returned that to Costco) so I feel it is no risk.

[joe-dvd-man2]

I posted a few weeks ago and was, based on eProductWars, going to go with blu-ray, but I noticed that HD has a lot more going on on Amazon right now. For example, they're having a buy-a-player-and-get-five-discs-free sale.

So now the decision feels like one between a) buy a system and dvds for a lot more $ but with slightly more chance it will win out, or b) buy a system and dvds for not much $ with slightly less chance for winning.

Can I learn anything from what I see on eProductWars or Amazon? I'm thinking perhaps I should just wait for one of the sides to capitulate, and hold off on HD this year.

[mdc3000]

I'd just jump in and buy a format now, but that's just me.... why didn't you post this in YOUR OTHER THREAD, instead of starting a new one?

[dsa_shea]

You can buy a PS3 or any Blu-Ray player for that matter and get five free discs as well. And if you hold off for this year then you might as well hold off for next year as well. The war in Iraq will probably end sooner than this high definition war.

[Adam Tyner]

joe-dvd-man2's posts are reading more like a plug for eProductWars than a legitimate request for help making a decision. Closing thread.