Are Poker Clubs Illegal and Give Your Opinion on this Idea....

[SoSpacey]

If the house takes nothing, is it illegal?

The reason I ask is that I put forth this idea with my buddies back in June and it is growing quickly....

We have been playing weekly for about 5 years. Guys have come and gone but it is a pretty good group of us.

This year will be the first time we are doing this.....

WSOP Team Event

30 Players
$400 each
Winner take "all"
2 day tournament
10k in chips to start
blinds up every half hour

"The Catch"
$12,000 in total prize money to the winner. 10k for the Main event. 2k for hotel/air/spending.
The winner is playing in the WSOP for the team. Any and all winnings are split the following way....
35 shares
the winner/team player gets 6 shares. The 29 others get one share each.

We already have 30 guys on our list +6 alternates. Money is due by Jan 31st. Tournament is weekend before mothers day.




We have been kicking this around for a few months and it has grown into something bigger than we imagined. We are starting to do smaller events for local tournaments. The Borgata is hosting a WSOP Circuit event in December. We are doing smaller tournaments to pay for guys to enter into satellites that lead up to it.

Same thing with Foxwoods tournaments.

We already have a lawyer (poker player) drafting a document that everyone needs to sign.

Opinions?

[pinata242]

Just watching the 2007 WSOP Main Event on ESPN, there are several people that were representing their own home games this way. It may not be legal, but it is a well-known practice.

[pedagogue]

Just watching the 2007 WSOP Main Event on ESPN, there are several people that were representing their own home games this way. It may not be legal, but it is a well-known practice.
Yup.

Thought it would behoove you to have something formal drawn up about splitting the winnings, etc....since that snafu with Jamie Gold (i think?).

-p

[Jeremy517]

It probably varies from state to state. I think in most states, if the house doesn't take a rake, it is fine.

[SoSpacey]

Yup.

Thought it would behoove you to have something formal drawn up about splitting the winnings, etc....since that snafu with Jamie Gold (i think?).

-p


i think his buddy split the entry with him and thought jamie was holding out so he sued him.

jamie's story is that is that he had every intention on paying him.

[Red Dog]

In VA, if there is any kind of rake or money taken out of the tourney/pot that goes to the house or goes to pay dealers and other help, it is illegal.

It does vary by state.

[DVD Josh]

Your lawyer's document won't be worth the paper it's printed on. It's still money from an illegal venture.

[Jeremy517]

Your location says Jersey. This (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/) says that social gambling (no one takes a rake) in New Jersey is allowed, so it appears that you are legal.

[SoSpacey]

Your lawyer's document won't be worth the paper it's printed on. It's still money from an illegal venture.



so when jamie gold got sued, his friend didnt have a leg to stand on?

all we are doing, technically, is bankrolling the entrance fee and having a tournament to decide on who plays. doesnt sound very illegal to me.

[pinata242]

What is the point of the document the lawyer is drafting? Just that the winner of this bankroll has to give 82.86% of the winnings back to the group?

[NORML54601]

I think it sounds like a great idea. I wish had enough poker playing friends who could afford to do something like this.

[SoSpacey]

What is the point of the document the lawyer is drafting? Just that the winner of this bankroll has to give 82.86% of the winnings back to the group?


we dont want someone winning $8m and then pretending he doesnt owe any of it back to the group.

the best part of this will be of our team player makes it to the money and a few of us fly out to vegas to support him.

[SoSpacey]

I think it sounds like a great idea. I wish had enough poker playing friends who could afford to do something like this.


i was amazed at how quickly we had 30 guys. our normal game has around 14 on the email list so we get 8-9 every week.

since we have been playing so long there are guys who stopped playing with us maybe because they had a kid or got a new job further away than would allow them to drive up for. we have about 10 guys who fall into this category. that brings the total to around 24.

my friend steve also has a game he plays in with about 10 guys. thats 34.

then add in their friends who they told.



we gave first crack to the players who always play with us....we want to keep it in the family.

after those players, we started asking some friends and family members of the group that normally plays.

we could honestly get 2 groups of 30 if we tried hard enough but we:

1- dont want to manage a group that size
2- dont want to send 2 people and have to split it into 70 shares

we are going to do this every year. anyone who played the year before has first crack the next year to play again. if they dont play then it goes to the first peroson on the list and the guy who didnt play moves to the bottom. it puts some pressure on you to play every year to keep the group consistent.

for $400, even if you dont win, you have a shot at winning money anyway. so getting knocked out of our own tournament isnt that bad.

[Deftones]

How can you make money if it's 30 guys at $400 for a total of $12,000 and you are spending the extra $2k on hotel/airfare?

[pinata242]

As long as he clears $14k after taxes, everybody would get their money back. Realistically, though, it's just $400 for the chance to be the 1 of the 30 to go play. Anything beyond that is just gravy.

[Deftones]

Oh. I get it. You assume he's making money. :lol:

I thought you meant money from the original tournament.

[SoSpacey]

Oh. I get it. You assume he's making money. :lol:

I thought you meant money from the original tournament.



we dont even really care if he makes money at the wsop. its just a mini/private-satellite that gives you a 1 in 30 shot of getting in.

it gives us something to root for.


if i told you you had a 1 in 30 shot at playing in the WSOP for $400, and even if you lose, you may still get some cash, would you do it?

setting it up the way we do decreases hard feelings. if i knock you out, but you know i am going to play in the wsop for you, wouldnt it hurt less? your still not out of it.

life is about experiences.

[SoSpacey]

As long as he clears $14k after taxes, everybody would get their money back. Realistically, though, it's just $400 for the chance to be the 1 of the 30 to go play. Anything beyond that is just gravy.


you nailed it. we aren't looking this as a money making event, we want the experience.

i am looking forward to the phone call from my friend to say he made it into the money so i can priceline a ticket to vegas, sleep on his floor and cheer him on.

although i would obviously want to be playing and my friends flying out :)

[Deftones]

Don't get me wrong. This is a great idea. Just don't count on the guy winning money.

[DVD Josh]

so when jamie gold got sued, his friend didnt have a leg to stand on?

Seriously? That was a LEGAL gambling venture. Gambling is legal in sanctioned venues in Las Vegas, like the WSOP.

[Jeremy517]

Seriously? That was a LEGAL gambling venture. Gambling is legal in sanctioned venues in Las Vegas, like the WSOP.

This is legal too; there is no rake.

[Deftones]

Uhhh, he made the "deal" with the guy in LA, IIRC.

[orangerory]

What about paying taxes on the initial $12,000 win? I don't know about tax law, but presumably, if the operation is a social game and legal and one person wins $12,000, the state might say you owe taxes (how they would know is a different story).

On the other hand, potentially, the $10,000 entry and related expenses would count as "losses" and offset - unless you ended up winning in the tourney.

Anyway - it's all very confusing unless you know something about taxes - which I don't.

Also - the other question is logistics for the 30 person tourney - (1) location for hosting; (2) bathrooms; (3) food/drinks; (4) dealers; (5) overseer; (6) etc.... It would suck to have to be the one handling all that and not get a piece of something.

[SoSpacey]

What about paying taxes on the initial $12,000 win? I don't know about tax law, but presumably, if the operation is a social game and legal and one person wins $12,000, the state might say you owe taxes (how they would know is a different story).

On the other hand, potentially, the $10,000 entry and related expenses would count as "losses" and offset - unless you ended up winning in the tourney.

Anyway - it's all very confusing unless you know something about taxes - which I don't.



we had 2 ideas
1- take $200 of the $2000 and set up a corporation (you can do it online). the corporation would then split the shares up and issue 1099s

2- let the player pay the taxes and then split up the rest after taxes.


EDIT - I misread - the initial 12k would all be written off v. the WSOP buy-in and expenses. although the state will never really know about this.

any WSOP winnings (not that we think there will be any) will be dealt with the way i explained above.

Also - the other question is logistics for the 30 person tourney - (1) location for hosting; (2) bathrooms; (3) food/drinks; (4) dealers; (5) overseer; (6) etc.... It would suck to have to be the one handling all that and not get a piece of something.

my buddy has a house with 3 poker tables (on order) and 3 bathrooms. we'll let everyone know to bring drinks and snacks and we can order pizza or something to eat during a break. we will deal ourselves. we have enough chips between all of us to handle a 100 person tourney.

[orangerory]

Well, I like it. I actually passed your idea on to some of my poker buddies to see if we could do something similar here. No one was excited as I was (one was like, "well, I'd rather keep the $10,000 and not enter the tourney") but I said that kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Oh well.

If anyone in VA wants to do something like this, let me know. :)

[El Scorcho]

It will be worth the $10k alone just to find Humberto and piss on his fucking CHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK

[pedagogue]

Great idea...i can't do it this year, but next year I'd like to give this a shot.

-p

[Deftones]

I'd rather punch Havad "Rain" Kahn in the face.

[atari2600]

What about paying taxes on the initial $12,000 win? I don't know about tax law, but presumably, if the operation is a social game and legal and one person wins $12,000, the state might say you owe taxes (how they would know is a different story).



why would they have to pay taxes on it? its just a friendly game - who would report that?

[orangerory]

why would they have to pay taxes on it? its just a friendly game - who would report that?


Most friendly games do not result in a $12,000 win. If somehow (e.g., news article) the state tax authority found out, I imagine they'd be interested. But on the other hand, say everyone pooled $400 to pay for an entry for the best player after a "friendly" poker game that cost "nothing" to enter - I don't know if that is technically income.

Anyway - I'm not saying anyone would report it. But, if you win $12,000 in a legal gambling operation, I imagine that technically you are supposed to report it.

[atari2600]

how could the state even prove that someone won 12k in a friendly game?

[pedagogue]

It will be worth the $10k alone just to find Humberto and piss on his fucking CHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK
I HAAAAAAATE that guy!!! Fucking obnoxious.

-p

[Red Dog]

I'd rather punch Havad "Rain" Kahn in the face.


Same here.

[pinata242]

I'd rather punch Havad "Rain" Kahn in the face.
That's how we doooo it, BAYYYYYBEEEEE! OOO OOO OOO OOO OOO!

[Jeremy517]

For you Rain Khan fans, this is from tonight's WCOOP main event:


PokerStars Game #12365424707: Tournament #70000023, $2500+$100 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (400/800) - 2007/09/30 - 20:09:18 (ET)
Table '70000023 314' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: RaiNKhAN (67200 in chips)
Seat 2: bigjoe2003 (55431 in chips)
Seat 3: hotmark777 (41904 in chips)
Seat 4: SueEllen82 (21002 in chips)
Seat 5: Zedzz (6652 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: mr rocknroll (487 in chips)
Seat 7: TravestyFund (22772 in chips)
Seat 8: astarisborn (46492 in chips)
Seat 9: Vaga_Lion (24183 in chips)
RaiNKhAN: posts small blind 400
bigjoe2003: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
hotmark777: raises 1277 to 2077
SueEllen82: folds
Zedzz: folds
mr rocknroll: folds
TravestyFund: folds
astarisborn: folds
Vaga_Lion: folds
RaiNKhAN: calls 1677
bigjoe2003: folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 2h Qd]
RaiNKhAN: checks
hotmark777: bets 2777
RaiNKhAN: calls 2777
*** TURN *** [6d 2h Qd] [Js]
RaiNKhAN: checks
hotmark777: bets 6777
RaiNKhAN: calls 6777
*** RIVER *** [6d 2h Qd Js] [9d]
RaiNKhAN: checks
hotmark777: bets 17777
RaiNKhAN: raises 17777 to 35554
hotmark777: calls 12496 and is all-in
RaiNKhAN said, "dsf,kjsdlkfjsdf"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RaiNKhAN: shows [Kc Qc] (a pair of Queens)
hotmark777: shows [2d Ad] (a flush, Ace high)
hotmark777 collected 84608 from pot
RaiNKhAN: misclick
RaiNKhAN: so sick
RaiNKhAN: i hate life
hotmark777: BULLDOZERRRRRRR
hotmark777: BULLDDOOOZEEERRRRR
hotmark777: OOOH AHHH OOOH OOHH AAAAH
RaiNKhAN: i dont even know what to say
ArdyJay [observer]: LOLOLOLLLLLLLL'
RaiNKhAN: its like
RaiNKhAN: im supposed to get mad
hotmark777: OOOOH AAAHHH OOOOHHHAAAAHHH
RaiNKhAN: but im not rly mad
hotmark777: BULLLDOOOOOZZZZZEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Deftones]

bhaahahah. That is quality.