Smashing Pumpkins : Are they really THAT Great?

[Buckleyesque]

I haven't at all been a Smashing Pumpkins follower despite owning a couple of their albums that I never spin. Still, so many of my more 'intellectual' friends seem to rate them higher than what I would consider more accessible rock music - such as Lifehouse, Incubus etc.

What do you guys think, and which album would you rate as their best? Also, is there 'something special' about them that other groups dont have?

[mndtrp]

I never thought they were the greatest, mostly due to Corgan's slightly annoying voice. I do like Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, but I imagine most people will say Gish is the cream of the crop. Like you, I don't listen to their albums much any more.

I certainly don't like them enough to go see them this weekend.

[chino77]

gish? i would assume most would say siamese dream. ive never known gish to be popular.

[jdodd]

Never been a fan because of Billy Corgan's voice and other factors, but I can see why people like them.

[SpaceBoy]

I must confess I"m a Corgan whore, supporting the Pumpkins, Zwan even his crappy solo album that came out a few years ago. Although I don't always love the music, I appreciate the effort, and am always looking forward to see what he does next.

I like the fact they try different things with their albums instead of churning out the same thing ever record. Machina, Adore were very different musically and although not fan favorites, in my mind was the group taking risks and trying to do something they find stimulating.

I really actually enjoy corgan's voice, and think the actual music is some of the best I've heard. Lyrically I think they're generally weak, but musically I think the group is pretty strong.

I would say most would rate Mellon Collie first, the Siamese Dream etc. personally I enjoy all their albums even the much panned Adore and Machina. I actually find their newest album Zeitgeist their worst, far worse then Machine and Adore (I liked those because they tried something different with each)

I'm anxiously awaiting to see them again here in a few weeks at the Avalon.

[starseed1981]

They used to be, but aren't anymore.
I too am a Corgan whore. But I think the problem with the Pumpkins is really Corgan now. There comes a point where you prove that you have artistic integrity, and I completely respect wanting never to repeat your self, but you need to satisfy your fan base. That said, what Pumpkin fans want is another Siamese or Mellon Collie and the fact that they could repeat it (Untitled is proof of this) but don't is what makes being a fan so frustrating. Hell, the Chilli peppers did it with Californication and look what that did for their careers.

[pinata242]

I never would have guessed that someone named SpaceBoy would be a Corgan whore ;)

[SpaceBoy]

I never would have guessed that someone named SpaceBoy would be a Corgan whore ;)

rotfl Guilty as charged.

[rexinnih]

Never really got into them until the last year or so. I like them but am not a slobbering fan.

[TheMadMonk]

No, they are not really THAT good.

[wendersfan]

They're OK, nothing special. Coincidentally I was listening to <i>Siamese Dream</i> yesterday in my car.

[KillerCannibal]

No. I tried numerous times to like them in the 90's during their peaks of popularity and I couldn't get into them. Corgan's voice was always a major deterrent for me. That, and I just didn't like the music that much. I <i>can</i> see why people would like them, but they're just not my bag.

[MWB]

I was a huge Pumpkins fan back in the day. That time has passed, but I still rank Siamese Dream as one of my favorite albums of all time. Too much filler on Mellon Collie--trim it down to one disc, and then it'd be up there with SD.

[Lunatikk]

From the amount of "Zero" shirts I see, I would assume they are the most popular band ever.

[DamingR]

Yes, they are THAT good. Listen to Starla, Mayonaise, Geek USA and their greatest hits CD. I didn't personally care much for Machina, but otherwise they're pretty damn solid. If you see them on a night when they are in a good mood and have a good crowd, Billy Corgan will destroy you with the rock. Yes, I know that they had a lot of bad shows in the SD/MCIS/Machina eras. I saw some of them. But when they're on, they kill shows.

[DVD Josh]

They are FUCKING AWESOME. Just listen to the opening riffs of Cherub Rock, BWBW, Doomsday Clock, like a fucking nuclear weapon being trained on you. Billy doesn't have the greatest voice in the world, but his growl fits the music. NO ONE in their genre wrong songs like him. Jimmy is one of the greatest drummers in rock history.

SP invented several recording techniques that have been used ever since. Their records are well produced (save for the vocals, where the vocals need to be backed down 1000%), and the songs hit you like a train.

In conclusion - Billy Corgan will destroy you with the rock.

[UAIOE]

I'll profess undying love for both "Siamese Dream" and "Mellon Collie".

[starseed1981]

If you see them on a night when they are in a good mood and have a good crowd, Billy Corgan will destroy you with the rock. Yes, I know that they had a lot of bad shows in the SD/MCIS/Machina eras. I saw some of them. But when they're on, they kill shows.

That's the problem with seeing them live. I've been to alot of terrible shows of theres (the 3 night stand at AllState Arena in Rosemont Illinois during the Mellon Collie tour & Chicago-Detroit-Cleveland during the Arise! Tour) & also some absolutley amazing ones (Opening For The Rolling Stones, Roseland Ballroom during the Sacred & Profane tour & The Final Show at the Metro). You can never tell when they are on or they are off. I once saw them at the University of Illinois and Billy never once talked to the crowd. And sometimes if he is pissed he won't even play an encore or will cut the 3rd portion of the set.

The other issue I have with them live, and most people don't, is that they play some iterations of there songs that sound nothing like the album version (sometimes this is good (the live versions of "Shame" "Ava Adore") and sometimes this is bad (3 of the 5 live versions of "BWBW" "Rocket" "The Crying Tree of Mercury"). To some that is part of the live experience but it just doesn't work for me.

Another thing, which is hit or miss for some fans, is that Billy tends to shove songs down his fans throats until he finds an arrangement he likes (see "Blue Skies Bring Tears").

But one thing I absolutley love about seeing them live is that very often if a crowd starts cheering for a song, provided he is in a good mood, he will tear into it. For example, during the last leg of the Machina I was in a group of people that got them to play an encore of Porcelina Of The Vast Oceans, Geek Usa & Whir.

[zombiezilla]

I like them quite well, but only the "hits". They're a 1990's group that I had little time for (I used to have a lot of disdain for the music of the 90s, but the 00's make the 90's positively 60s-ish...LOL), but I enjoy(ed) what I've heard on the radio or at clubs.

[superdeluxe]

I haven't at all been a Smashing Pumpkins follower despite owning a couple of their albums that I never spin. Still, so many of my more 'intellectual' friends seem to rate them higher than what I would consider more accessible rock music - such as Lifehouse, Incubus etc.

What do you guys think, and which album would you rate as their best? Also, is there 'something special' about them that other groups dont have?


Lifehouse and Incubus is rock music? I'd almost consider those two bands more pop than rock.

Many of the pumpkins greatest hits are because of their great guitar jams, that are reminescent of 70's rock.

I would say generally the 2 most beloved albums by both fans and non-fans would be siamese dream (which is a rock masterpiece. Short and impactful). And Mellin Collie and the Infinite Sadness (Is not as impactful, but is so massive with so many different styles of music, its equally as good).

Also where as most band's b-sides are usually just crap songs that we're not good enough for the album, I tend to find that many of the pumpkins B-sides are superior to the album works, and there are several B-sides albums out there.

[superdeluxe]

I imagine most people will say Gish is the cream of the crop.


No

[superdeluxe]

Too much filler on Mellon Collie--trim it down to one disc, and then it'd be up there with SD.


Really? You can trim MC to one disc? What would you cut out :P

[superdeluxe]

I know some people don't like variations of the songs from the album music.

But the re-worked Heavy Metal Machine? Holy cow. As it slows down from Billy rant into the rocking part of the song, with Jeff Schroeder totally killing it on the solo guitar..its massive.

[UAIOE]

The one album I don't own (anymore) and refuse to buy ever again is "Machina". Over-processed to hell. I have to admit that the songs from this album are much better live and stripped of that studio processing.

There are some really good songs/variations on Machina 2....things that should have been on Machina instead.

[Buckleyesque]

Hmm, well The Smashing Pumpkins are sort of like a poor mans' Pearl Jam (to me anyway) - at least thats what listening to portions of Adore makes me think. What exactly is good about that album is beyond me, seriously. If rock music is to be perceived as a bunch of weird dumb noises thrown together, then Adore would win hands down.

Well heres the thing, Incubus and Lifehouse are not rock in the true sense, but they could be classifed as accessible rock - a few pop elements are there, but Im a sucker for power arena rock, and these bands do it fine. From what I hear of the Smashing Pumpkins theres not too much of a hook to reel me in, plus the lead singers vocals are definitely NOT a selling point. Ive never been into Corgan only because I truly feels he lacks a cohesive element about him - and to top it all of his voice is very, very weak. I would even rate Jon Bon Jovi's voice higher than his.....

I see the camp is almost equally divided between fierce SP loyalists and people who cant stand the band....

[atlantamoi]

I think I'd actually like this band had Corgan sounded differently. I like my share of weird or gruff sounding vocalists, but his truly grates on me. Seeing them live did nothing to diminish my feelings. I think the only song I never turn off if it comes on the radio is "1979".

[DamingR]

Hmm, well The Smashing Pumpkins are sort of like a poor mans' Pearl Jam (to me anyway) - at least thats what listening to portions of Adore makes me think. What exactly is good about that album is beyond me, seriously. If rock music is to be perceived as a bunch of weird dumb noises thrown together, then Adore would win hands down.

Well heres the thing, Incubus and Lifehouse are not rock in the true sense, but they could be classifed as accessible rock - a few pop elements are there, but Im a sucker for power arena rock, and these bands do it fine.


I will say this in the nicest way I can muster: you have very bad taste in music if you think Lifehouse is better than Adore. Period.

I am going to assume you haven't listened to Siamese Dream or MCIS. You need to listen to those albums before you can begin to see what Adore is.

I love Pearl Jam, but they have 1/10th the range of catalog that SP has. You can put all their albums on shuffle and it sounds like one big album. SP's albums are very very different and immediately recognizable.

And I would drop the Lifehouse/Incubus comparisons entirely, because comparing pop bands to rock bands with serious musical integrity is a joke.

[Buckleyesque]

I really dont understand when Incubus and Lifehouse became pop bands. LOL. Seriously?

[sk8r1189]

I would have to say that I like some of there songs. Though its a bit rediculous around here (Northern Jersey), everyone is either a fan, and hates the new stuff; or a poseur and "loves all the albums they are my fav band." Its like the whole Nirvana thing all over again. In my opinion, I find them to be a bit over-rated. I would have to go with bands like Incubus, Disturbed, Pantera, Helmet, Queens of the Stone Age, etc.

[DVD Josh]

Really? You can trim MC to one disc? What would you cut out :P

I don't agree that you should, but before I had a MP3 stereo in my car, I did make a one disc mix. I love the album as is, but for academic purposes, it had:


1. "Tonight, Tonight" – 4:14
2. "Zero" – 2:41
3. "Here Is No Why" – 3:45
4. "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" – 4:18
5. "To Forgive" – 4:17
6. "Fuck You (An Ode To No One)" – 4:51
7. "Galapogos" – 4:47
8. "Muzzle" – 3:44
9. "Where Boys Fear to Tread" – 4:22
10. "Bodies" – 4:12
11. "Thirty-Three" – 4:10
12. "1979" – 4:25
13. "Thru the Eyes of Ruby" – 7:38
14. "By Starlight"
15. "X.Y.U." – 7:07 (purposely out of order)

I may be off by one or two, this was a long time ago. But the above is probably pretty close.

[DVD Josh]

The one album I don't own (anymore) and refuse to buy ever again is "Machina". Over-processed to hell. I have to admit that the songs from this album are much better live and stripped of that studio processing.

There are some really good songs/variations on Machina 2....things that should have been on Machina instead.

I had the chance to speak to Billy after an Adore era show. I told him I loved the live versions of the Adore songs and what did he think about fan reaction to the album versions. I then asked him to respond to the challenge that if Adore had the live versions instead of the album versions it would have sold better and he damn near tore my head off. I love him anyway. :D

[abrg923]

In a word....no.

[DRG]

Melon Collie and earlier - Awesome, feature some of my favorite songs ever.
Adore and after - Ranges from so-so to barely listenable... a huge dropoff in quality.

But I strongly dislike Incubus and Lifehouse... "Drive" is one of my least favorite songs ever. And "You and Me" makes me want to punch someone.

[UAIOE]

I had the chance to speak to Billy after an Adore era show. I told him I loved the live versions of the Adore songs and what did he think about fan reaction to the album versions. I then asked him to respond to the challenge that if Adore had the live versions instead of the album versions it would have sold better and he damn near tore my head off. I love him anyway. :D

There are a few songs I like on Adore (not "Perfect" or "Ava Adore"), but it dropped off my "most disliked" list after that pile of over-processing called "Machina". I don't hate "Adore", I did revisit it later and find a few songs I really liked.


P.S. The only Incubus song I really like is "Wish You Were Here".

[astrochimp]

If you looked at the entire SP history i would say they are not great but from Gish to Mellon Collie they are,or were great.

[superdeluxe]

The pumpkins are one of the few bands that explore its musical boundries. None of the albums sound like another. Even SD and MCIS are different.

[Hollowgen]

In a word....no.

In two words... never were.

[DVD Josh]

In two words... never were.

In three words: Hollowgen is wrong.

[chino77]

In three words: Hollowgen is wrong.

in four words....dvd josh is right.

[cdollaz]

In five words...I can't count.

[mndtrp]

gish? i would assume most would say siamese dream. ive never known gish to be popular.
Eh, that's what I meant. I'm not sure why I typed Gish.

[woofman]

Siamese Dream was cream of the crop for me. I discovered them when Gish came out and instantly fell in love. They totally meshed the boundaries between the mellower "alternative" music at the time, and hard shredding rock/metal. They caught me with those killer riffs & and jazzy fills, but kept me with the soaring choruses. Then when SD came out, like a freight train out of distortionville, they completely destroyed me. The one CD that never left my side, in the car or the house, headphones on, eyes closed, that CD took me places I've never been since. I've yet to hear anything quite as thunderously anthemic as the tracks on that classic-IMHO of course. :-) and they delivered the goods on that tour as well-fo sho.

[LiquidSky]

gish? i would assume most would say siamese dream. ive never known gish to be popular.

I love gish and it's their only CD I still own. :)

[Arpeggi]

Siamese Dream is their only great album and it's only great because Billy did a good job of ripping off My Bloody Valentine.

Their other albums have some good songs, that's about it.

[starseed1981]

Siamese Dream is their only great album and it's only great because Billy did a good job of ripping off My Bloody Valentine.

He didn't do a good job, he did a GREAT job.

[Y2J850]

If the Smashing Pumpkins are "not really THAT Great?", what is everyones opinions on new bands that have come out after the Pumpkins? IMO The amount of quality "rock" music as of late seems to be very very low. Sure there are some good ones(Queen of the stone age,Mars Volta , System of a Down,Symphony X). But almost all of the post Grunge era rock music - pop-punk-nuMetal-emo is pretty crappy IMO.

And Lifehouse is a rockband? Don't get me wrong there not bad ..but just like The Goo Goo Dolls or Matchbox 20 ..I don't think you would consider them "rock".

[superdeluxe]

Their other albums have some good songs, that's about it.


Mellin Collie was pure genius.

[Flynn]

The Pumpkins are fantastic. How else can you explain a lead singer that sounds like THAT making it? Their shoe-gaze/goth/metal was unlike any other music on the radio at the time, and didn't fit in with all the grunge wannabes who churned out song after forgettable song once Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden dropped the gauntlet.

Corgan's ear for melody, harmonics and FUZZ is unmatched, and their first three albums are masterpieces.

[UAIOE]

And Lifehouse is a rockband? Don't get me wrong there not bad ..but just like The Goo Goo Dolls or Matchbox 20 ..I don't think you would consider them "rock".

You could argue that Goo Goo Dolls were rock prior to the style change they did after "Name" hit it big.

[DVD Josh]

You could argue that Goo Goo Dolls were rock prior to the style change they did after "Name" hit it big.

Much closer to punk.

[UAIOE]

I think you mean "better than what they are now".

But now that I think about it, you are correct.

[darkessenz]

Please lifehouse ? seriously? SP is a great band. MCIS was the anthem of my highschool life, along with siamese dream. They are a one of a kind band.

[darqleo]

His voice annoys me to much to own any of their music, I tried liking them, honestly. A lot of the music is good, though, at least their earlier stuff.

[mikelowry]

Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie defines the Smashing Pumpkins greatness. If you have to buy any SP CD, then these two are a must!

[DrRingDing]

I think that the Pumpkins will be regarded highly, but not in the absolute upper echelon when history finally passes judgment.

Something like Simon & Garfunkel, who are dearly loved, but when somebody asks for the best act of the '60's, they will most likely not come up immediately. It will only be after a few other bands are mentioned.

And the albums that will help them maintain this legacy are <i>Siamese Dream</i> and <i>Mellon Collie</i>.
-ringding-

[mikehunt]

I liked most of Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, but that's about it

[Suprmallet]

Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie, and Adore will always hold a special place in my heart. They're all great albums with great sounds and showed just how inventive Corgan could be. Does Siamese Dream rip liberally from My Bloody Valentine? Yep, sure does. Does it matter? Nope. The songwriting is fantastic and the whole thing is just ON. Mellon Collie is just this massive achievement, weaving together all these disparate sounds and styles. And Adore is, well, Adore. :)

After Adore, I found they dropped off really quickly. I think Corgan's ego just went way too far off the deep end and even now he can't bring it back into focus.

As for the comparisons to Incubus and Lifehouse, what the hell? Might as well compare Jethro Tull to ABBA.

[starseed1981]

Just FYI....apparently the Pumpkins are recording another album right now for release right after the new year (according to Jimmys blog on their website). Maybe they are gonna follow the "In Rainbows" routine.

[Damed]

I like some of the pumpkins studio stuff, but they are probably the WORST band I've ever seen live (and I've seen a lot). Horrible. I wouldn't pay to see them again. Hell, I wouldn't go if GIVEN tickets.

[DVD Josh]

Just FYI....apparently the Pumpkins are recording another album right now for release right after the new year (according to Jimmys blog on their website). Maybe they are gonna follow the "In Rainbows" routine.

This is surprising and awesome news. Do you have a link please?

[starseed1981]

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/blog_2796

[GuessWho]

Some holiday cheer from last year

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Billy Corgan and Dennis DeYoung (formerly of Styx) sing "We Three Kings"

[cdollaz]

Corgan always was a prolific songwriter, so this seems reasonable.

[superdeluxe]

These might be the residency songs that he wrote while in asheville and san fran.

Great news.

Also make sure to get mashed potatoes.

[Hollowgen]

I like some of the pumpkins studio stuff, but they are probably the WORST band I've ever seen live (and I've seen a lot). Horrible. I wouldn't pay to see them again. Hell, I wouldn't go if GIVEN tickets.

saw them about 4 times, and i have to say it was a mixed bag. not sure what would cause 2/4 shows to sound like ass, but hey...