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View Full Version : One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part VI


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The Bus
05-01-08, 08:24 AM
Fewer Latino Immigrants Sending Money Home

By JULIA PRESTON
Published: May 1, 2008

In a sign that the economic downturn is hitting hard among Latino immigrants, more than three million of them stopped sending money to families in their home countries during the last two years, the Inter-American Development Bank said on Wednesday.

Growing numbers of Latino immigrants are also considering giving up their foothold in the United States and returning home in response to a slump in low-wage jobs and the crackdown on illegal immigration, the bank reported in a survey of 5,000 immigrants from Latin America.

The survey found that only half of the 18.9 million Latino immigrants in this country now send money regularly to relatives in their home countries, compared with 73 percent two years ago.

“The major dynamic that is holding them back from sending money is fear,” said Sergio Bendixen, a Miami-based pollster who conducted the survey. “They don’t know whether they won’t be able to get a job anymore.”

With fewer people sending money home, money transfers to some Latin American countries have started to decline, reversing five years of often spectacular growth. In the first quarter of this year, transfers to Mexico dropped 2.9 percent from the first quarter of 2007, Mexico’s central bank reported on Wednesday, the first significant decline since Mexico began tracking the transfers in 1995.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/01immigration.html?hp">Continue reading</a>

<hr>

I always wondered why some people here thought the majority of immigrants sent most of their money home.

wishbone
05-01-08, 08:54 AM
I always wondered why some people here thought the majority of immigrants sent most of their money home.Just over half of all Latino immigrants (51%) send remittances (money sent to relatives in their country of origin) and 41% talk by telephone with a relative or friend there at least once a week. However, these activities are much more common among recent arrivals than among those who have been in the U.S. for many years. Among those in this country for less than 10 years, 63% send remittances and 62% phone at least weekly. Among those here for 30 years or more, 36% send remittances and 19% call at least weekly.http://pewresearch.org/pubs/622/latino-immigrants-native-country

NotThatGuy
05-21-08, 12:49 AM
I guess the 20+ million illegals have left the country and stopped sucking our resources dry?

The Bus
05-21-08, 07:41 AM
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/622/latino-immigrants-native-country

Read my statement again. Or the article.

General Zod
05-21-08, 08:29 AM
I guess the 20+ million illegals have left the country and stopped sucking our resources dry?
More likely the longer they are in the country the longer they are able to set up for their wives/friends/kids to be able to get over here - thus negating the need to send money back home.

NotThatGuy
05-21-08, 11:16 PM
More likely the longer they are in the country the longer they are able to set up for their wives/friends/kids to be able to get over here - thus negating the need to send money back home.
Good pt. And adding to the 20+ million....sweet. Not.

wishbone
05-27-08, 02:32 PM
Two Lives, One Social Security Number
Posted: Tuesday, May 27 at 06:00 am CT by Bob Sullivan

excerpts due to length of the article (http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/05/two-lives-one-1.html)

Like arriving home to see a broken window, Holli knew something was wrong when she pulled up the statement from her new 401(k) account and saw a stranger's name there. Under her name and account information, she found a second name: Paulino Rodriguez. But was it an accident, random vandalism or a serious crime? She opened the virtual door to her account and sorted through the broken glass. Her worst fears would soon be confirmed.

After some frantic research, Holli pieced together part of the story. Rodriguez, the 401(k) Web site revealed, lived in Escondido, Calif., about 90 minutes south of Holli’s home in Fountain Valley. He was a restaurant worker in an Escondido Burger King. This was no prank -- though Holli would soon feel like several government agencies, corporations and a criminal were having fun at her expense. She was a victim of something experts call Social Security number-only identity theft, generally committed by immigrants who don’t have the necessary credentials to work legally in the U.S.
...

For the past three years, Paulino Rodriguez used Holli's Social Security number for the right to work at the Escondido Burger King. Recently, with his wife and four children, he took up residence in a middle-class subdivision on Espanas Glen Street in Escondido, a short block near Interstate 15.

Rodriguez, according U.S. immigration officials, is a Mexican national with no right to work in the United States. But thanks in part to Holli’s Social Security number, he had found a decent life for his family in Escondido, which means "hidden" in Spanish. But that that life was safe only if no one found out he was sharing Holli's identity.
...

Information at her fingertips
Holli, a woman in her 50s, panicked one month ago when she saw Rodriguez’s name on her 401(k) account, then she started putting the pieces together. It wasn't hard -- she had all of Rodriguez's personal information right there on her screen, including his age: 38. She called his employer, Reddy Restaurants Inc., which supplies workers to Burger King. Holli says she was told that nothing could be done because Rodriguez fulfilled the requirements for employment when he started work -- namely, he supplied what appeared to be a valid Social Security card.

Mike Holly, owner of Reddy, confirmed that Rodriguez was an employee but refused to otherwise discuss the situation.

Holli then called the local police, who took a report but said nothing could be done. She contacted the Social Security Administration, the Federal Trade Commission, even her 401(k) administrator. The message she heard from each was the same: We can’t help you. She even went to an attorney, who delivered bad news.

"(He) said since my credit hadn't been affected, they couldn't do anything for me," Holli recalled.
...

Rodriguez entered the country nearly 20 years ago, public records suggest. It's unclear where in Mexico he grew up, or how he crossed the border. At about the same time, Holli was just starting her career. Precisely when their lives were blended isn't clear. But about three years ago, Holli remembers getting a funny look from a clerk while she was filling out insurance paperwork at an optometrist’s office. "There's someone else's using that (SSN) number," she remembers being told. Then, "I'm not supposed to tell you this, but the name Paulino Rodriguez."
...

Getting such documents is hardly an obstacle for illegal immigrants seeking work. Fake Social Security cards and work visas can be purchased in Los Angeles for around $200, law enforcement officials say -- a small investment for the opportunity to work in the United States.
...

Mixed feelings
Holli had mixed feelings when she began her quest to track down her imposter.

"When all this began a month and a half ago, I was worried I might be ruining his life when all he wanted to do was work," she said. But the bureaucratic tangle had changed her. "Now after spending numerous hours of my time trying to find out what is going on as well as worrying, losing sleep and using my work vacation time, I no longer feel bad for Paulino. He made the choice to steal my number. And the fact that privacy laws keep me from being able to see what he is doing with my number infuriates me."
...

When another person is using a consumers' Social Security Number for employment purposes only, there is almost no way to discover the identity theft. The misuse will not show up on a credit report; it won't be detected by credit monitoring. Because the wages earned are not credited to the victim, they won't show up on annual Social Security statements either. In fact, there is no way for anyone to inspect the history of their Social Security Number, or to find out where and when it's been used. Only an anomaly or coincidence – such as having an imposter show up on a 401(k) Web site -- betrays the theft.

That's why this is an important victory for Holli; she's among the first to find her SSN imposter and stop the ID theft. Of course, she has no way of knowing if her identity is now secure, because her number may have been used by other immigrants.

"The fact that I can check my credit but not my whole credit is absurd," she said. "In any case, this is my identifier that follows me around and I should be able to protect myself (and my identifier) by knowing what is attached to it." She plans on urging Congress to fix the problem. Meanwhile, she’s left with a sour taste in her mouth -- she acted in self-defense, but worries that some will see her as a villain who caused Rodriguez’s arrest. She’s angry at the criminal who stole her identity and at the system which put her in this compromising situationhttp://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/05/two-lives-one-1.html

Unbelievable -- she was unable to get help on this matter and her only recourse was to track this person down herself. :rolleyes:

The Bus
05-27-08, 02:48 PM
I found this extremely interesting:

Since 1983, more than $500 billion in uncredited Social Security wages have been earned by so-called "no match" employees like Rodriguez.

Also:

"The fact that I can check my credit but not my whole credit is absurd," she said. "In any case, this is my identifier that follows me around and I should be able to protect myself (and my identifier) by knowing what is attached to it."

What she means by "whole credit" is not credit at all. Information like 401(k) doesn't report on your credit and employment isn't always correct.

I do know that the IRS double-checks this information because a client of mine got sent a letter showing that someone was using his information: the IRS wanted to know why he had not reported that income.

This was no prank -- though Holli would soon feel like several government agencies, corporations and a criminal were having fun at her expense.

I doubt anyone was "having fun"...

The Bus
05-27-08, 02:49 PM
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/05/two-lives-one-1.html

Unbelievable -- she was unable to get help on this matter and her only recourse was to track this person down herself. :rolleyes:

Then, she pestered the dispatcher in Escondido enough that the file was passed on to the investigations department. Detective Damon Vander Vorst took an interest in the case.

More like "her only recourse was to keep hounding her local police department"...

NotThatGuy
05-28-08, 03:48 PM
The bottom line is that it shouldn't happen as often or as easily as it does happen.

The Bus
05-28-08, 03:57 PM
The bottom line is that it shouldn't happen as often or as easily as it does happen.

Agreed. It also doesn't help the fact that the SSN is the <i>de facto</i> national ID number for everyone.

Tuan Jim
05-28-08, 04:57 PM
Agreed. It also doesn't help the fact that the SSN is the <i>de facto</i> national ID number for everyone.

Even more of a hassle for military members now since it's also our "serial number" - as in, "Name, Rank and Serial #" -- which means it's attached to EVERYTHING.

NotThatGuy
05-28-08, 08:57 PM
Even more of a hassle for military members now since it's also our "serial number" - as in, "Name, Rank and Serial #" -- which means it's attached to EVERYTHING.
I never knew that. I always figured you got a new number for your tags and whatnot.

Tuan Jim
05-29-08, 05:15 AM
I never knew that. I always figured you got a new number for your tags and whatnot.

Back in the day (like when my grandfather was in way back when) it was a random number, but some time (80s maybe) they changed it to your SSN.

fujishig
06-18-08, 10:58 AM
Seems like enforcement is up? or is it just smoke and mirrors?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-na-immig18-2008jun18,0,7298770.story?track=rss


WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration has sharply ratcheted up prosecutions of illegal immigrants along the U.S.-Mexico border in the last year, with increases so dramatic that immigration offenses now account for as much as half the nation's federal criminal caseload.

In the widening crackdown, administration officials prosecuted 9,350 illegal immigrants on federal criminal charges in March, up from 3,746 a year ago and an all-time high, according to statistics released Tuesday. Those convicted have received jail sentences averaging about one month.



Of course, reading on in the article, California is not a participant in the program....

Also, a few weeks back I read this article about a mayor in Denver promising to cover the tuition of local high school students... but he only promised to pay for in-state tuition, and the illegal immigrant kids have to pay out of state. They are still getting an equivalent to cover in-state tuition, however, and I would think this would still upset anti-illegal-immigration activists:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/latinamerica/la-na-freecollege8-2008jun08,0,5749993.story?track=rss

DENVER -- A lot of kids sat up and took notice the day the mayor showed up at Cole Middle School, offering to make a deal: If they'd study hard and stay in school, he'd find the money to pay for college. Four years later, the first of those students are ready to take him up on his offer -- and Mayor John Hickenlooper is ready to deliver.

But the deal has soured for some students in the group: those who are illegal immigrants. Because they would be required by Colorado law to pay out-of-state tuition, it would cost much more to pay for their college educations.

Although the mayor says he will give the students the same amount of monetary support that legal residents will receive, it's far less than what they will need to cover tuition. At least 10 of the 38 who graduated are affected, according to a private group helping the students.

Some now say the mayor has backed away from a commitment that boosted their hopes for the last four years. "We acknowledge the fact the mayor is giving us partial help, but that is not what he promised," said Yadira Zubia, 19.

Franchot
06-19-08, 02:33 PM
Seems like enforcement is up? or is it just smoke and mirrors?...

I'd say it's probably up, but nowhere near the level it should be. I was listening to a talk show last night and it was stated that 93 percent of people who try to cross our southern border illegally are successful in crossing and are never stopped/caught/chastised.

Heck, the enforcement numbers can't get much lower, can they?

Tuan Jim
06-19-08, 03:41 PM
There was a story in a local paper (can't remember which one since I just saw it on the stands) that local feds were having to cut back on planned raids this summer due to a lack of detention spaces - recent ones have been a little more effective I guess. No idea about if it's taking an excessive time to run deportation proceedings or not.

Franchot
06-27-08, 10:01 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20080613/pl_rasmussen/immigrationpolls20080613

32% Angry About Immigration, but Not Mad at Immigrants

Fri Jun 13, 9:36 AM ET

One-third of U.S. voters are still angry about illegal immigration, an issue that neither presidential candidate has made central to his campaign. But, voters blame Washington, not immigrants.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that along with the 32% who express "anger," an additional 27% are frustrated with the lack of action. Thirty-nine percent (39%) say it's just one of many issues they have an opinion about.

Eighty-three percent (83%) of those angry about immigration direct their anger at the federal government while only 12% point towards the immigrants. This fact, perhaps more than any other, may explain how official Washington misread the public mood so badly last June. While the Senators believed they were solving the problem, voters believed that the government was the problem.

This is consistent with other recent polling data showing that an overwhelming majority of voters believe the federal government itself has become a special interest group that looks out primarily for its own interest.

Overall, public attitudes about immigration have shifted little in the past year. By a 63% to 28% margin, voters continue to believe it is more important to gain control of the border than to resolve the status of those who are already in the country illegally. Democrats are more evenly divided than other voters, but a plurality (49%) agree that controlling the border is the top priority.

At the same time, by a 56% to 27% margin, all voters continue to favor a welcoming immigration policy that would let anybody move to the United States except national security threats, criminals, and those looking to live off the U.S. welfare system. Republicans and unaffiliated voters are a bit more supportive of a welcoming policy than Democrats, but 52% of those in Barack Obama's party support that approach. Among those who say it's more important to gain control of the border, 60% favor a welcoming immigration policy.

Voters who are angry about the issue also hold views right in line with the population at large--they favor a welcoming immigration policy by a two-to-one margin (60% to 30%).

Another factor fueling the anger over immigration is the belief that most government officials encourage immigrants to retain the culture of their home country. Overall, 43% of Americans believe this to be true while 32% disagree and believe most officials encourage immigrants to fully embrace American culture. Among those who are angry about immigration, 59% believe most government officials encourage immigrants to retain their home country culture. A separate survey conducted earlier this week found that 77% take the opposite view and believe people who come to America should adopt this country's culture.

The importance of assimilation into the culture is highlighted another recent survey--54% of voters say it is more important to encourage all immigrants to embrace American culture than it is to reduce the number of immigrants. Just 36% take the opposite view and say reducing immigration is a higher priority. That survey, as with many others, also found a strong preference for ballots and other government documents to be printed in English only.

In reviewing this data, it is important to remember that most voters have a very positive view of American culture. Rasmussen Reports polling data consistently shows that a solid majority believe our society is generally fair and decent. Only about two-in-ten voters consider American society as generally unfair and discriminatory. Protecting a society that is generally fair and decent is naturally a goal that many people embrace.

Collectively, this data suggests that the desire of most Americans to gain control of the border is part of a broader desire to protect American culture. The anger over immigration--anger at the government--is based on the perception that government policy and government officials are failing at that basic task. Many voters would probably go further and believe that many government actions constitute nothing less than an active assaulting on the culture. This view helps explain the overwhelming opposition of voters to drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants.

Also, when 73% of voters want police to see if traffic violators are in the country legally, what they are saying is that they simply expect government to perform one of its basic functions. That mindset also helps explain the strong popular desire for requiring employers and landlords to seek proof that someone is legally in the country.

Last year, the Senate was forced to surrender and defeat a bill that most Senators liked but was supported by just 22% of American voters. The Senators and their friendly Beltway pundits appeared stunned by the public opposition to what they considered a "comprehensive" reform.

What they failed to understand is that voters who are angry about immigration are angry at the government, not immigrants. The United States is a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws and most Americans want both of those traditions upheld.

This national telephone survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted by Rasmussen Reports June 10, 2008. The margin of sampling error for the survey is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.

Rasmussen Reports is an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information.

That number seems rather high to me. I thought that only the few racist and disgruntled members we have here at DVD Talk were upset with illegal immigration.

If these senators were actually stunned, then they're certainly out of touch with their constituents.

NotThatGuy
07-05-08, 01:10 PM
<--not racist, but quite disgruntled at the shit policies and lack of true reform by our government. I also am not a fan of illegal immigrants, because they are knowingly breaking the law.

Ranger
07-21-08, 04:00 PM
Thought this was interesting. Just might be enough to put pressure on pols to change things.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,387722,00.html
Widow Wants San Francisco Sanctuary Law Changed After Illegal Charged With Murder

Monday , July 21, 2008

A San Francisco woman whose husband and two sons were gunned down last month — allegedly by an illegal immigrant who remained in the city despite previous crimes — is demanding the city do something about its sanctuary law.

Danielle Bologna was widowed on June 22 when Edwin Ramos, 21, an illegal immigrant from El Salvador, allegedly gunned down her husband, Anthony, and two sons, Matthew and Michael, in a road rage incident when her family was returning from a picnic.

Ramos has been charged with three counts of murder in the case, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

"It was a senseless crime, and had they done something this animal would not have taken my family," Bologna told FOX News on Monday. "I feel that the government should have stepped in. I feel that they allow these immigrants to come in and how dare they strip our families like this."

The Chronicle reported that Ramos was convicted of two gang-related felonies while a juvenile and remained in San Francisco because the Juvenile Probation Department did not alert federal authorities. San Francisco's 1989 "City of Refuge" ordinance prohibits city agencies from contacting the feds on immigration matters.

The newspaper also found that federal officials knew about Ramos' immigration status in March when he was arrested on a gun charge, though they couldn't tell the Chronicle why they didn't put an immigration hold on Ramos.

Bologna blames the city.

"It should have been resolved at the beginning, when this guy had done more than one crime in the city," she told FOX News. "I want justice. I want the people to see: If my family wasn’t safe, what makes you think yours will be?"

Franchot
07-21-08, 04:41 PM
Thought this was interesting. Just might be enough to put pressure on pols to change things.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,387722,00.html

That kind of stuff happens all the time in Los Angeles and the politicians merely wring their hands and say, "This is terrible. Something needs to be done." And then do nothing to really stop the problem.

I have a feeling that San Francisco isn't any different. The only way to change things is to put politicians into office who want to be tough on the illegals who commit crimes, but politicians are looking for votes from many sectors and don't want to piss off the people who help to put them or keep them in office.

(In Los Angeles we have a guy running for mayor who is pushing for something called "Jamiel's Law" which would require that known gang members with violent pasts be deported. But the members of the city council and the mayor refuse to get involved with it. http://web.mac.com/waltermoore/WalterMooreForMayor/Jamiels_Law.html )

Jason
07-21-08, 04:56 PM
Don't worry about illegal immigration, America's high school football players are on patrol!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25739051/

SHENANDOAH, Pa. - Luis Ramirez came to the U.S. from Mexico six years ago to look for work, landing in this town in Pennsylvania's coal region. Here, he found steady employment, fathered two children and, his fiancee said, occasionally endured harassment by white residents.

Now he is headed back to Mexico in a coffin.

The 25-year-old illegal immigrant was beaten over the weekend after an argument with a group of youths, including at least some players on the town's beloved high school football team, police said. Despite witness reports that the attackers yelled ethnic slurs, authorities say the beating wasn't racially motivated.

Hate crime or not, the killing has exposed long-simmering tensions in Shenandoah, a blue-collar town of 5,000 about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia that has a growing number of Hispanic residents drawn by jobs in factories and farm fields.

An investigation continues, and no charges have yet been filed, but police say as many as six teens were involved in the fight, which ended with Ramirez in convulsions and foaming at the mouth. He died early Monday of head injuries.

Racial slurs
Crystal Dillman, the victim's 24-year-old fiancee, who is white and grew up here, said Ramirez was often called derogatory names, including "dirty Mexican," and told to return to his homeland.

"People in this town are very racist toward Hispanic people. They think right away if you're Mexican, you're illegal, and you're no good," said Dillman, who has two young children by Ramirez and a 3-year-old who thought of him as her father.

On Dillman's fireplace mantel hangs a medallion of Jesus that Ramirez was wearing the night he was beaten. Ramirez had an imprint of the medallion on his chest, marking where an assailant stomped on him, she said.

Police Chief Matthew Nestor acknowledged there have been problems as the community — the birthplace of big band musicians Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey and home of Mrs. T's Pierogies — has tried to adjust to an influx of Hispanics, who now comprise as much as 10 percent of the population.

Teenagers have sprayed racially tinged graffiti and yelled racial slurs at the newcomers, he said.

"Things are definitely not the way they used to be even 10 years ago. Things have changed here radically," Nestor said. "Some people could adapt to the changes and some just have a difficult time doing it. ... Yeah, there is tension at times. You can't deny that."

'A street fight that went wrong'
Police are still interviewing suspects and witnesses. Preliminarily, though, they have determined that Ramirez, who worked in a factory and picked strawberries and cherries, got into an argument with a group of youths that escalated into a fight in which he was badly outnumbered.

"From what we understand right now, it wasn't racially motivated," Nestor said. "This looks like a street fight that went wrong."

Retired Philadelphia police Officer Eileen Burke, who lives on the street where the fight occurred, told The Associated Press she heard a youth scream at one of Ramirez's friends after the beating to tell her Mexican friends to get out of Shenandoah, "or you're going to be laying next to him."

Shenandoah Valley High School principal Phillip Andras said he knew little about the alleged involvement of any football players. A call by the AP to the athletic director was referred back to the principal.

But the players' possible involvement has added to interest in the case. Football, along with the town's many block parties and festivals, is a major attraction; home games typically draw thousands of fans.

Witnesses say race was a factor
Arielle Garcia and her husband, who were with Ramirez when he was beaten late Saturday, said they had dropped their friend off at a park but returned when he called to say he had gotten into a fight.

She saw someone kick Ramirez in the head, she said, and "that's when he started shaking and foaming out of the mouth."

The Garcias said they heard the youths call Ramirez "stupid Mexican" and an ethnic slur.

Burke, the former Philadelphia officer, said she saw shirtless youths swarming around Ramirez, called 911 and went outside, when she heard a youth yell obscenities and make the get-out-of-Shenandoah remark.

Despite the witness statements, Borough Manager Joseph Palubinsky said he doesn't believe Ramirez's ethnicity was what prompted the fight: "I have reason to know the kids who were involved, the families who were involved, and I've never known them to harbor this type of feeling."


Did I put this story in the right thread, or is this thread for the Lou Dobbs crowd only?

General Zod
07-21-08, 05:13 PM
The story does it's best to paint it as a racially motivated attack the did elude that he "got into an argument with a group of youths that escalated into a fight in which he was badly outnumbered.".. so the fact that he was illegal or not may not have had much to do with it. I'm Jewish and if I went over and picked a fight with a bunch of people I'm sure some derogatory things would be said about my religion while I was getting the beat-down. It doesn't mean they attacked me BECAUSE I was Jewish.


"The 25-year-old illegal immigrant..."

"People in this town are very racist toward Hispanic people. They think right away if you're Mexican, you're illegal"
Gee I wonder why they think that? How racist of them.

Franchot
07-21-08, 05:14 PM
Don't worry about illegal immigration, America's high school football players are on patrol!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25739051/



Did I put this story in the right thread, or is this thread for the Lou Dobbs crowd only?

I'd say it's the right thread. I find this kind of thing horrific which is why I believe in stopping illegal immigration before more of this hate stuff gets out of hand, especially in light of our worsening economy. By the way, I think all those involved in this murder should be given the severest punishment that the law will allow.

crazyronin
07-21-08, 05:15 PM
I'm sure you'll show just as much outrage at the 12 Americans mmurdered every day by illegal aliens. :lol:

That doesn't count the 13 killed every day by illegal alien drunk drivers.

Ranger
07-21-08, 05:48 PM
Don't worry about illegal immigration, America's high school football players are on patrol!

Good to know that they finally let those Jena kids go free.

NotThatGuy
07-21-08, 06:51 PM
I'm sorry that a person died and those involved should be punished, but I'll point out that if he and the hundreds/thousands of other illegals didn't invade their town, maybe there wouldn't be such racial tension.....and maybe this random act of violence wouldn't have taken place.

foggy
07-22-08, 07:32 AM
I'd say it's the right thread. I find this kind of thing horrific which is why I believe in stopping illegal immigration before more of this hate stuff gets out of hand, especially in light of our worsening economy. By the way, I think all those involved in this murder should be given the severest punishment that the law will allow.

It seems very presumptuous to describe this incident as a murder. Certainly crimes were committed, but I think that it is up to the courts to decide how severe the crime actually was and whether there were any mitigating circumstances.

Franchot
07-22-08, 10:26 AM
It seems very presumptuous to describe this incident as a murder. Certainly crimes were committed, but I think that it is up to the courts to decide how severe the crime actually was and whether there were any mitigating circumstances.

You're right!

When I read: Ramirez, who worked in a factory and picked strawberries and cherries, got into an argument with a group of youths that escalated into a fight in which he was badly outnumbered I side with the lone guy who got caught up in some sort of mob mentality. Of course I don't know all facts of the case and I am being presumptuous in this case.

fujishig
07-22-08, 12:03 PM
I'm sure you'll show just as much outrage at the 12 Americans mmurdered every day by illegal aliens. :lol:

That doesn't count the 13 killed every day by illegal alien drunk drivers.


Or what about the two recent cases where illegal immigrant criminals could have been deported but weren't, and as a result committed murders themselves?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jamiel19-2008jun19,0,2637466.story

summary:
Jamiel Shaw II, a high school football star in Orange County, was allegedly gunned down by illegal immigrant Pedro Espinoza, who had been picked up by police just a few months earlier, but because of Special Order 40 was not investigated for his immigration status at that time. Since then, there was an outcry started by his parents to repeal the Special Order to check convicts for immigration status, but the police chief came back and said that it was a basic misunderstanding of the law by the police themselves.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/20/MNK011MAFR.DTL

Tony Bologna and his two sons were allegedly gunned down by Edwin Ramos. Ramos had been taken into custody twice as a juvenile and released because of San Francisco's Sanctuary Policy, which doesn't allow them to consider immigration status when sentencing someone. Just this past March he was arrested again, and they found that he was here illegally, actually wanted to turn him into ICE but ICE themselves didn't want to.

Franchot
07-24-08, 05:28 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_re_us/road_rage_killing

Killings turn focus on San Francisco sanctuary law

Thu Jul 24, 7:42 AM ET

SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and preventing another car from turning left.

But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.

The deaths immediately drew public outrage, which intensified when authorities revealed that Ramos, 21, is an illegal immigrant who managed to avoid deportation despite previous brushes with the law.

The case has put San Francisco's liberal politics to the test, setting off a debate over its sanctuary law that shields undocumented immigrants from deportation.

On Wednesday, Ramos pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder in the deaths of Anthony Bologna, 49, and his sons, Michael, 20, and Matthew, 16. Bologna and his older son died in the intersection on June 22. His younger son succumbed to his injuries days later.

Shortly after that, police arrested Ramos, a native of El Salvador and reputed member of the Mara Salvatrucha gang, known as MS-13. Investigators believe he was the gunman, though two other men were seen in the car with him.

The heinousness of the deaths has put pressure on San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris to seek the death penalty against Ramos. Harris, who campaigned on an anti-death penalty platform and has never pursued capital punishment during her more than four years in office, has declined to say exactly how she intends to proceed.

"This case has been charged as a special circumstance case," making it eligible for the death penalty, spokeswoman Erica Derryck said. "No additional announcement has been made about this aspect of the charging."

Ramos' attorney, Robert Amparan, said his client was not the shooter. "They have the wrong person," he said.

...

I'm curious if there were any eye-witnesses to this crime. In bumper to bumper traffic, I'd imagine that someone other than the criminals saw what happened. And if Ramos is not the shooter (as he claims), then were the two other passengers in his car arrested for anything?

General Zod
07-24-08, 05:57 PM
To San Francisco an illegal immigrant gang member > 3 innocent Americans on their way home from a picnic.

However this case has gotten so much publicity they have to go through with charging him. I'm sure it is really upsetting them that they have to bother him and not let him continue on his murderous ways. I'm sure they'll do whatever they can to ensure he is inconvenienced as little as possible.

Franchot
07-25-08, 11:03 PM
UPDATE



Pa. teens charged in fatal beating of immigrant

PORT CARBON, Pa. - Three white teens were charged Friday in what officials said was an epithet-filled fatal beating of an illegal Mexican immigrant in a small northeast Pennsylvania coal town. Brandon J. Piekarsky, 16, and Colin J. Walsh, 17, were charged as adults with homicide and ethnic intimidation in the July 12 attack on Luis Ramirez.

A third teen, Derrick M. Donchak, 18, was charged with aggravated assault, ethnic intimidation and other offenses. All are from Shenandoah, where the attack occurred.

Additional charges are expected in the case that has roiled Shenandoah, a small, economically depressed town where police have reported friction between whites and a growing Hispanic population.

The suspects played football at Shenandoah Valley High School; Donchak, now enrolled at Bloomsburg University, was the quarterback last season.

"As a result of this crime, a young man has lost his life. Many other lives have been devastated, and the borough of Shenandoah has been filled with tensions between many ethnic groups," Schuylkill County District Attorney James Goodman said.

"Now that the criminal charges have been filed, we must let this case be handled in the criminal justice system," he said.

According to a police affidavit, the defendants and three 17-year-olds encountered Ramirez, 25, and a teenage girl in a park the night of July 12.

The youths goaded Ramirez and the girl, saying, "You should get out of this neighborhood" and "Get your Mexican boyfriend out of here," documents said. After Ramirez and the girl began walking away, someone yelled an ethnic slur at him, court documents said. He responded, "What's your problem?"

A fight ensued, during which police said Walsh punched Ramirez in the face. The victim fell and hit his head on the street, leaving him unconscious, after which Piekarsky kicked him in the head, police said.

All three suspects used ethnic slurs during the fight, which ended with Ramirez in convulsions and foaming at the mouth, authorities said. The attackers fled the scene; Ramirez underwent surgery but died July 14 of head injuries.

Piekarsky and Walsh were being held without bail, while Donchak was held on $75,000 bail.

Lawyers for Piekarsky and Walsh said their clients are not guilty and that there was no evidence to support the homicide charges. They also said they would try to have the case removed to juvenile court.

Roger Laguna, Walsh's lawyer, said the police affidavit "pretty much describes chaos, and what you have then after the fact is somebody trying to sort through that and attribute certain acts to certain individuals."

He said that although slurs might have been used, the fight was not motivated by ethnicity.

"I think any time there's a fight and any time you have one ethnic group fighting another, there's going to be racial slurs," he said. "I've seen that since I was a kid on a playground 20 years ago, but they never called it ethnic intimidation until very recently."

Frederick Fanelli, Piekarsky's lawyer, said he is "surprised and disappointed" that his client faces a homicide charge, attributing Ramirez's death to a "street fight that ended tragically."

Donchak declined to comment.

Ramirez, who entered the U.S. illegally about six years ago, worked in a factory and picked strawberries and cherries.

Crystal Dillman, the victim's 24-year-old fiancee, who is white and grew up in Shenandoah, has said Ramirez was often called derogatory names and told to return to his homeland. The couple had two children together, and Dillman also has a 3-year-old who thought of Ramirez as her father.

"I plan on moving out of this town as fast as I can. Not because I'm scared. I just don't want to see my children have to deal with what their father dealt with," Dillman said.

Preliminary hearings for all three suspects were set for Aug. 4.

Goodman said a fourth teen will be charged as a juvenile with aggravated assault and ethnic intimidation and that charges also will be filed against a man who provided alcohol to the defendants hours before the attack.

I very strongly oppose illegal immigrants coming into our country, but this sickens me. Yeah, I know IF the illegal immigrant wasn't here in the first place and IF the government errected secure borders this might never would have happened. (And many American citizens have been killed by illegal immigrants coming into this country, but still...)

Nausicaa
07-25-08, 11:40 PM
Put a bullet through the back of their heads and be done with it. Pretty twisted shit. I really have no sympathy for those who provoke and kill someone. Especially as a group, and even more especially if they're drunk.

The Edwin Ramos stuff is even worse. Feed that shit bag to a starved bull shark for all I care. I can't imagine what the mother is going through. Reminds me of the movie 21 Grams. Losing your whole family? I don't know how anyone could come back from that.

Rockmjd23
07-25-08, 11:42 PM
We're a Lou Dobbs crowd, remember? Don't make us whites feel bad.

fujishig
08-07-08, 12:40 PM
Can ICE get any lazier? Why go after illegal immigrants, when you can offer them a chance for self deportation?

http://cbs2.com/national/Illegal.immigration.ICE.2.789115.html

No-Jail Self-Deportation Program Draws Few Takers
CBS News Interactive: Immigration And Naturalization
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) ― Wanted: Illegal immigrants with clean records who have ignored court orders to leave the country. Immigration officials are standing by to help you leave the country. No jail. No joke.

That invitation drew hardly any takers Tuesday on the first day of a new federal "self-deportation" program that offered 457,000 eligible illegal immigrants the chance to turn themselves in, get their affairs in order and leave the country without being detained.

The tepid response only reinforced doubts about an idea that has drawn criticism and even ridicule from both sides of the immigration debate.

"You would have to be crazy - who would want to turn themselves in?" said Angel Martinez, a construction worker who waited Tuesday outside ICE's Charlotte, N.C., office while his son visited a friend detained on immigration violations.

"Nobody wants to go back," said Martinez, who came to the U.S. illegally 15 years ago from Mexico City. "We risked everything to get here for a reason."

The offer from the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement runs through Aug. 22 in Santa Ana, San Diego, Chicago, Phoenix and Charlotte, N.C., as part of the agency's new Scheduled Departure Program. It could be expanded nationwide if successful.

Agents were waiting to speed people through the process - which grants participants up to three months to get their affairs in order and provides the comfort of knowing their homes won't be raided.

But by Tuesday afternoon, only one person - in Phoenix - took the offer, according to an ICE official who spoke on condition of anonymity because not all the numbers are in. Officials in the other cities said they had no takers by mid-afternoon.

"Are people actually doing it? I really find it hard to believe," said Wendy Chavez, 22, of Anaheim, who took her mother for a citizenship test.

An ICE advertising campaign being launched Wednesday targets so-called immigration "fugitives," illegal immigrants who got caught and ignored a judge's order to leave but avoided other trouble with the law.

Of the nation's estimated 12 million illegal immigrants, about 572,000 are fugitives, although about 20 percent of them are ineligible to participate because they have criminal histories, officials said.

By turning themselves in, immigrants can also avoid spending weeks, months or possibly years in detention centers as their cases are processed.

The program "gives you time to make arrangements and take care of your personal matters," the ad reads. "It is a way for you to plan your return home."

When ICE agents arrive at a home to arrest a fugitive, they often find relatives and friends who are in the U.S. illegally but haven't been ordered home. Those people may get deported too.

Robin Baker, who heads ICE's detention and removal operations in San Diego, said participants in the program get up to 90 days to put their affairs in order, possibly longer, after turning themselves in. They are asked to check in with U.S. officials after leaving the country to let authorities know they kept their promise.

"We understand the impact it has on them when we knock on their doors early in the morning and take them out of their homes," he said. "This allows them to leave on their own terms."

And fugitives who aren't from Mexico are likely to get another benefit: A one-way plane ticket home if they can't afford the trip, just like immigrants arrested in raids. For Mexicans who are deported, ICE will consider paying bus fare to the border.

The program could also ease pressure on immigration courts and detention centers, which have been crowded by the Bush administration's immigration crackdown at homes, factories and offices.

Juan Laguna, a Santa Ana immigration attorney, said some of his clients might be interested.

"They don't want their children to go through the trauma of being arrested in the morning," he said outside ICE offices Tuesday.

Some may sign up for the program to improve their standing with the government in case they ever seek to return legally, Laguna said. The ad says surrendering to authorities will be "noted by ICE as a factor in your immigration records."

One anti-illegal immigration group welcomed the effort. Ira Mehlman, spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said taxpayers would save money if even only a few surrender because ICE won't have to look for them.

The ad campaign targets ethnic media in the five cities, starting with the Prensa Hispana newspaper in Phoenix. In Chicago, ICE planned ads in La Raza, the city's largest Spanish-language weekly, and on Spanish- and Polish-language radio.

ICE officials hesitated to predict turnout but Robert Alfieri, supervisory deportations officer in Charlotte, had a message for critics: "For anyone to say no one will do it, that's absolutely wrong."

Maybe I'm missing something here... aren't they held for a long time while their cases are being reviewed because they're fighting deportation? What's stopping them from self-deporting themselves without having to go through ICE, if they're that afraid?

I thought if you're caught here illegally, you would be ineligible to come back legally anyway? ICE isn't really making any promises in the ad, and then on top of that they make them wear a gps device to track them? I can only imagine how much that system cost to buy and operate.

I love how they interview an illegal immigrant right outside of the ICE office... he doesn't seem very afraid.


edit: I forgot that they're also spending money on an ad campaign for this, buying ads on Univision and other places. What a waste.

Lemdog
08-07-08, 01:00 PM
Wanted: Illegal immigrants with clean records who have ignored court orders to leave the country.

Is this possible? By ignoring the court order they no longer have clean records. Right?

Franchot
08-07-08, 01:57 PM
A fence or virtual fence which is being built (but not being built too quickly), self-deportation, and stripping the powers of the border patrol agents. Yeah, the government is really cracking down on illegal immigration.

Instead of errecting a fence from east to west along the California, Arizona, and Texas borders, the government should just abandon that construction projection and start a fence that runs north to south along California's eastern border. With all the sanctuary cities in California, that state is already passed saving.

JOE29
08-08-08, 08:10 AM
Yeah, I know IF the illegal immigrant wasn't here in the first place and IF the government errected secure borders this might never would have happened

This subject makes for good conversation and television reports but the fact remains that American companies make money off of these people. This is why I believe they are here in the first place. There was a meat plant in Iowa for one example who used these people like slaves working them 18 hours a day for very little pay and no insurance. This plant was exposed last week there are thousands of these companies all over the country that do this. Even the place where I used to work had done this a few years ago. They later stopped this when they learned they could be heavily fined if caught. Seeing 15 year old Mexicans running around in my plant I thought I was back in Junior High School. I don't think the country will ever get this problem solved because they are making too much money off of these people. Low wages, long hours, no insurance they can save millions of dollars.

Franchot
08-08-08, 10:04 AM
There was a meat plant in Iowa for one example who used these people like slaves working them 18 hours a day for very little pay and no insurance. This plant was exposed last week there are thousands of these companies all over the country that do this. Even the place where I used to work had done this a few years ago. They later stopped this when they learned they could be heavily fined if caught. Seeing 15 year old Mexicans running around in my plant I thought I was back in Junior High School. I don't think the country will ever get this problem solved because they are making too much money off of these people. Low wages, long hours, no insurance they can save millions of dollars.

And giving amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants is not going to solve the problem. Companies will continue to look for cheap labor they can exploit and will continue to bypass the legal citizens of this country. Holding the greedy companies accountable by punishing them for hiring illegal immigrants and paying those illegal immigrants "slave" wages might be a good start to solving the problem. Erecting a border and actually controlling who comes into this country would also help to stop the "slave trade" that exists between the United States and other poor countries.

fujishig
08-08-08, 12:28 PM
Right, as soon as they become citizens, they price themselves out of some of the low-wage jobs that they claim we need them to do, and we'll just get another wave coming in through the porous borders, working these jobs and waiting for their own turn at amnesty (which they feel is owed to them, I guess for being sneaky enough to get in and not get caught for years), then it repeats. As I said before, I'd even concede some form of amnesty to those already here IF they actually secured the borders and punished the companies exploiting illegal immigrants.

As for the self deportation idiocy: seems like this is only for "fugitives" who were already caught and determined to be here illegally. You're telling me that even the ones they catch they can't find again? And 20% of these have criminal records and are still allowed to walk away? What a waste.

Giantrobo
08-09-08, 05:23 AM
Right, as soon as they become citizens, they price themselves out of some of the low-wage jobs that they claim we need them to do, and we'll just get another wave coming in through the porous borders, working these jobs and waiting for their own turn at amnesty (which they feel is owed to them, I guess for being sneaky enough to get in and not get caught for years), then it repeats. As I said before, I'd even concede some form of amnesty to those already here IF they actually secured the borders and punished the companies exploiting illegal immigrants.



Thank you. :up: Mind you, I believe that once they become citizens they <i>should</i> get better jobs. They'd be stupid not to.

Giantrobo
08-09-08, 07:18 PM
The only solution is to merge the United States and México into a single country.


I've been sayin' that for some time now.

Mexico = 51st State

Franchot
08-09-08, 11:45 PM
I've been sayin' that for some time now.

Mexico = 51st State

I wouldn't have a problem with that as we absorb their oil, their labor, their farming, and their beautiful tourist spots. We already provide education, health care, and better wages for many of their citizens. We'd have to clean up the drug cartels, but it could be done.

We would become like Canada in that we would have to be a bi-lingual country, and that could be problematic. From what I've read, Canada has had its share of problems having two languages. (Maybe I'm wrong about that?)

Franchot
08-22-08, 07:33 PM
A "brilliant" plan by our government to help fix the illegal immigrant problem goes down in flames:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-22-deportation-program_N.htm

Feds scrap immigrant self-deportation program

A pilot program allowing illegal immigrants to surrender to authorities and have more control over their deportation has been dubbed a failure.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement says it is ending its "Scheduled Departure" program when the three-week trial concludes Friday. Only eight people participated in the program, officials said.

"Quite frankly, I think this proves the only method that works is enforcement," Jim Hayes, acting director of ICE's detention and removal operations, told The Associated Press on Thursday.

ICE said it hatched the plan to give illegal immigrants more control over their departure and to quell criticism by immigrant advocates that its enforcement efforts were disruptive to families.

"They want amnesty, they want open borders, and they want a more vulnerable America," Hayes said.

While immigrant rights activists ridiculed the program, they're now worried its failure will embolden enforcement.

"My hope is it isn't going to empower them or fuel their enforcement even further," immigration lawyer Lisa Ramirez said.

Immigrant advocates said the program flopped because it offered few incentives for illegal immigrants to step forward since they would be barred from returning to the country for as long as a decade. They also said it failed to consider immigrants' ties to family here.

"We do not believe they were really interested in having people turn themselves in," said Jorge-Mario Cabrera, director of community education for the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles.

ICE offered the program to 457,000 illegal immigrants nationwide who have ignored judicial orders to leave the country but have no criminal record. They were promised up to 90 days to plan their exit and coordinate travel with relatives.

Applicants could sign up at ICE offices in Charlotte, Chicago, Phoenix, San Diego and Santa Ana, Calif. ICE estimates 30,000 eligible immigrants lived in the five cities where the program was offered.

The eight volunteers included an Estonian man in Phoenix, a Guatemalan man and Indian couple in Chicago, a Salvadoran man in Charlotte, a Mexican woman in San Diego and a Guatemalan man and Lebanese man in Santa Ana, according to ICE.

ICE spent $41,000 to advertise the program. Hayes said the government may have saved money because the cost of detaining the six immigrants who turned themselves in during the program's first week would have been $37,000.

What a joke. Not even enough people to fill start a baseball team were deported. I'm surprised the government didn't let the program continue for a few more years so that they could waste more of the taxpayers' money. I'm sure they would have deported 100 illegal immigrants by the year 2020 and then called the program a resounding success.

General Zod
08-27-08, 08:06 AM
U.S. immigration cops nab 595 in largest-ever raid
PHOENIX (Reuters) - U.S. immigration agents have arrested 595 people at a Mississippi factory in what was the largest workplace enforcement raid in the United States to date, an immigration official said on Tuesday.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokeswoman Barbara Gonzalez said federal agents arrested the workers in a raid at the Howard Industries Inc. factory in Laurel, Miss, on Monday,

"This is the largest targeted workplace enforcement operation we have carried out in the United States to date," Gonzalez told Reuters by telephone.

The swoop at the plant, which makes electrical equipment including transformers, was part of an ongoing investigation into identity theft and fraudulent use of Social Security and for illegal immigrants.

The nationalities of the detainees was not immediately available.

Gonzalez said 475 detainees were transferred to an ICE detention facility in Jena, Louisiana, while nine unaccompanied minors -- eight males and one female -- were placed in the custody of the office of refugee resettlement.

A further 106 people were released based on "humanitarian concerns," Gonzalez said.

Immigration, particularly what do about some 12 million illegal immigrants living in the shadows in the United States, is a divisive issue in this election year.

Last year, Republicans in the U.S. Senate killed an immigration overhaul that would have offered many workers in the U.S. illegally a path to citizenship.

The measure was supported by both Republican presumptive nominee John McCain and Democrat rival Barack Obama.

Since its failure, immigration authorities have stepped up workplace enforcement raids, which have nabbed more than 4,000 people nationally since October 1 last year.

Previously the largest single immigration sweep was conducted at Agriprocessors Inc, a kosher meat plant in Postville, Iowa, which arrested 390 people in May.

And to show people still don't want to get it, the son of a pastor at a church that had many of these illegals attending said:

"It was like a horror story. They got handled like they were criminals."

Imagine that!? Treating criminals as if they were criminals. How ridiculous is that?

cdollaz
08-27-08, 08:27 AM
Until they drop the hammer in a big way on those who hire the workers, it is pointless.

Laser Movies
08-27-08, 12:58 PM
The day after the Mississippi raid people are lining up to apply for the jobs lost by illegals. Check out the news video showing American citizens trying to get these jobs and couldn't find work because illegals were getting hired instead. Link to video (http://www.wdam.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=v&clipFormat=flv&clipId1=2844811&at1=News&h1=Numbers&rnd=41371765).


http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/NEWS/808270366/1001


August 27, 2008


Applicants line up to fill jobs open after plant raid

Ed Kemp
Hattiesburg American

Howard Industries found itself at the center of activity again Tuesday.

Hundreds of job applicants lined up, eager to take advantage of the sudden job openings at the plant located in Jones County, where the unemployment rate is 6.3 percent.

ICE agents on Monday seized 595 plant workers suspected of being in the country illegally. Several workers, who did not identify themselves, said Tuesday they were working and trying to keep the plant operational in the wake of the sudden loss of co-workers.

They said it was common knowledge many of their co-workers were suspected to be illegal.

It's an idea that maddens Samantha Stevens, 18, of Heidelberg, who was among those who pulled up to Avenue A across from the plant's entrance throughout the day. She said she has been unable to find a job since she graduated from Heidelberg High School in the spring and blames, in part, the willingness of companies to hire illegal workers.

"We were here first. It's not fair for them to have a job," she explained.

Others welcomed the vacancies left by the detained workers.

Gwendolyn Watkins, 40, of Stonewall said she drove 40 miles to Laurel to fill out an application with the electronics maker. She worked at Tower Automotive in Meridian as a production worker for eight months before job cuts in June left her unemployed.

She now hopes to get on at Howard, and said that, while "everyone needs a job," she believes that legal workers should be the priority.

But for Samantha Sanchez, the issue wasn't quite so clear-cut. She filled out her application at the plant, and, in the process, revisited a scene that caused her anguish the previous day. Her husband, Juan Sanchez, a welder, was one of the workers detained in Monday's raid, and she hasn't spoken to him since he called her Monday morning.

She said her husband, who has been living in the United States for 10 years and working on an immigration case for six, was on the verge of achieving permanent residency.

She also spoke to the issue of fairness that has the government secreting her husband and the father of her four children.

"He doesn't drink; he doesn't smoke. He takes care of his kids," she said.

As to why she would return so soon to this place, Sanchez, who's currently unemployed and had previously worked at Howard as a coil winder, said it comes down to dollars and cents.

"I have to feed my family," she said.

Franchot
08-27-08, 01:56 PM
Until they drop the hammer in a big way on those who hire the workers, it is pointless.

And that's not going to happen any time soon. Too many big businesses want the steam of cheap, illegal labor to continue flowing into the country. And too many big businesses have friends in the government whom they funnel their "support" to.

It's easier for the government to go after the illegal immigrant workers who are trying to make a few bucks to feed his family. It's makes for good stories in the media.

Kittydreamer
09-02-08, 10:36 PM
The only solution is to merge the United States and México into a single country.


<a href="http://punditkitchen.com/2008/09/02/political-pictures-arnold-schwarzenegger-illegals-invade/"><img class="mine_1778269" src="http://punditkitchen.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/political-pictures-arnold-schwarzenegger-illegals-invade.jpg" alt="Obama Pictures and McCain Pictures" /></a><br />see <a href="http://punditkitchen.com/tag/obama/">Obama pictures</a>

Franchot
09-08-08, 05:15 PM
Just keeping this thread updated:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jail8-2008sep08,0,1103613.story

Illegal immigrants who return after deportation commit more crimes, study finds

In L.A. County, 75% of inmates who reenter the U.S. engage in more criminal activity within a year. The rate is less for illegal immigrants who have never been ordered to leave.

By Anna Gorman, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 8, 2008

Illegal immigrants who have been deported at least once from the United States are far more likely than other immigrants to repeatedly commit crimes, according to a study by the nonprofit Rand Corp.

The data indicated that illegal immigrants, overall, were not a greater crime risk, according to the study, which looked at all inmates released from Los Angeles County Jail for a month in 2002.

But among those who previously had been deported, reentered the U.S. and were arrested and released from jail, nearly 75% went on to commit another crime within a year. And 28% were arrested three or more times during the one-year period.

The recidivism rate was much lower for illegal immigrants who had not been previously deported, with 32% of those inmates being rearrested within a year and 7% arrested three or more times during that year.

Since the data were collected in 2002, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has overhauled screening for illegal immigrants and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has poured resources into border security. But researchers said the analysis still could have public policy implications for L.A. County and other counties around the nation.

"If you are trying to target people who are repeatedly cycled through the criminal justice system, this looks like a good risk marker," said author Laura Hickman, a researcher at Portland State University. "It doesn't make sense to just sweep up all deportable aliens, but to focus resources on the group who are at the most risk for committing new crimes in the community."

The authors acknowledged that the study was limited because they couldn't determine the immigration status of many of the inmates and others may have falsely claimed U.S. birth. As a result, the study limited its analysis to 517 male illegal immigrants released from Los Angeles County jails between Aug. 4 and Sept. 2, 2002.

Law enforcement authorities said the report, published online this summer in the journal Crime & Delinquency, underscores their ongoing efforts to target illegal immigrants who have been ordered deported or removed from the United States. But L.A. County Sheriff Lee Baca said the report also shows that the federal government needs to do more to stop criminals from sneaking back across the U.S.-Mexico border.

"Criminals who are illegal immigrants know no limits and no boundaries," he said. "The harder we make it for them to get across, the better."

The Los Angeles County Jail began working with federal immigration agents in 2006 to screen foreign-born inmates for possible deportation and have screened more than 20,000 inmates since then. This summer, the Sheriff's Department received $500,000 in county funds to expand the number of staff members conducting the interviews.

Lt. Kevin Kuykendall said the program tries to reach all illegal immigrants but places a priority on gang members, serious criminals and those who have previously been deported. Nevertheless, Kuykendall said, deported immigrants often end up back in Los Angeles -- and often back in the jails.

"If they were here illegally and involved in criminality, just deporting them may not be that much of a deterrent from coming back and continuing on in their criminal ways," he said. "We need to look at prosecuting them for coming [back] across the border."

The U.S. attorney's office is doing just that. From October 2007 through June, the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles had prosecuted nearly 500 illegal immigrants who returned to the U.S. after being deported, with most of the defendants receiving sentences of between three and five years. Such cases make up about one-third of all federal prosecutions in Los Angeles County and surrounding counties.

"This study appears to confirm our belief that our practice of prosecuting criminal aliens has a direct effect on protecting the residents of our district," said Thom Mrozek, spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles. "We are doing what we can to address this demonstrated threat by prosecuting these recidivists and locking them up in federal prison."

Immigration and Customs Enforcement also has pursued immigrants with criminal records who have returned after being deported, posting agents in some U.S. attorney's offices in key cities to help with the cases of such offenders.

The agency also recently rolled out a program to put a "virtual" Immigration and Customs presence in all jails and prisons by linking local law enforcement departments with federal databases. And in "fugitive sweeps" in communities across the country, agents have arrested illegal immigrants with criminal records and those who had returned after deportation or received final deportation orders. Such efforts are helping to take "dangerous criminals off the street" and send a deterrent message, agency spokeswoman Virginia Kice said.

Between Oct. 1, 2007, and Aug. 4, Immigration and Customs Enforcement deported nearly 265,700 illegal immigrants nationwide, including about 83,700 criminals. Almost 17,600 illegal immigrants, including 6,400 criminals, were deported from Los Angeles County and the surrounding counties.

"This study underscores why criminal aliens, and in particular those who have been previously deported, are a top ICE enforcement priority," Kice said. "These are individuals who have shown no respect for our laws and our borders."

Baca said the recidivism discussed in the study costs Los Angeles County millions of dollars that should be the responsibility of the federal government.

"We spend an enormous amount of resources and money chasing down illegal immigrant criminals and processing them through our system and then deporting them and then having them come back," Baca said. "Local government should not bear the burden of criminals who are illegal immigrants."

Just wondering--how many miles of fence between the United States and Mexico have been built so far? I don't hear much about it in the news these days. I hope in the upcoming debates between Obama and McCain that some questions about illegal immigration are tossed out at the presidental candidates.

wishbone
09-09-08, 05:32 PM
Slaughterhouse charged with using child labor

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) -- The owner and managers of the nation's largest kosher meatpacking plant were charged Tuesday with more than 9,000 misdemeanors alleging child labor law violations.

They're accused of hiring minors and, in some cases, having children younger than 16 handle dangerous equipment such as circular saws, meat grinders and power shears.

The allegations are the first criminal charges against operators of the Agriprocessors plant in Postville, where nearly 400 illegal immigrants working at the facility were arrested in May in one of the largest single-site immigration raids in U.S. history.

The complaint filed by the Iowa attorney general's office said the violations involved 32 illegal-immigrant children under age 18, including seven who were younger than 16. The complaint says in addition to handling dangerous equipment, the children were exposed to hazardous chemicals such as chlorine solutions and dry ice.

The attorney general's office said the violations occurred from September 9, 2007, to May 12, 2008, when the plant was raided by federal immigration agents.

Charged are the company itself, Agriprocessors Inc.; plant owner Abraham Aaron Rubashkin; former plant manager Sholom Rubashkin; human resources manager Elizabeth Billmeyer; and Laura Althouse and Karina Freund, management employees in the company's human resources division.

Each defendant faces 9,311 individual counts -- one for each day a particular violation is alleged for each worker. Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller said at a news conference on Tuesday that he would not elaborate on what evidence led to the indictment.

"All of the named individual defendants possessed shared knowledge that Agriprocessors employed undocumented aliens. It was likewise shared knowledge among the defendants that many of those workers were minors," the affidavit said.

The charges are simple misdemeanors, each carrying a maximum penalty of 30 days in jail and a fine of $65 to $625.

Miller said the case is the largest of its type he'd handled in his 26 years as attorney general.

Chaim Abrams, a manager at the plant, said in a statement that Agriprocessors "vehemently denies" the allegations. He said the underage workers -- not the company -- are to blame.

"All of the minors at issue lied about their age in order to gain employment at the company," he said. "At the time of hiring, all of the minors, like all job applicants, presented and signed documents stating that they were over 18. They knew that, if they told the truth about their age, they would not be hired."

Abrams said the state wouldn't be able to back up its case.

"In order to convict, the state is going to have to prove that the defendants willfully violated the child labor laws," he said. " ... The state will not be able to carry this burden of proof. Agriprocessors acted in good faith on the child labor issue. We look forward to our day in court."

Sonia Parras Konrad, an attorney representing more than 20 of the children, said her clients were as young as 14 when they started working at the plant.

"We don't need to see any papers to see that someone is a child," she said. "This was not one mistake, two mistakes, three mistakes, but many, many mistakes."

Parras Konrad said minors in the plant were treated the same as adults and often worked in the same conditions.

"They were hungry all the time, it was freezing cold or burning hot," Parras Konrad said the children told her.

The attorney general's office said the company encouraged job applicants to submit forged identification documents that were known to contain false information about their resident status, age and identity.

"Each defendant ... hired children, retained the employment of children observed working throughout the plant, and/or participated in efforts to conceal children when federal and state labor department officials inspected that plant," the affidavit said.

The more than 9,000 violations the state alleges fall into five categories: employing a child under age 18 in a meatpacking plant; employing a child under age 18 in an occupation that exposes the child to dangerous or poisonous chemicals; employing a child under age 16 who operated power machinery; employing a child under age 16 who worked during prohibited hours or more hours in a day than permitted by law; and employing a child under 16 who worked more days in a week than permitted by law.

It said the company's records also show that employees were not paid for all overtime worked.

Postville resident Dave Hartley, 50, said the allegations were unsettling.

"Everything is unsettling because Agri's a huge employer in this town," he said. "So you want to see the town strive and move forward."

He said one troubling aspect of the charges is that Postville will again be thrust into the spotlight.

"You want things to get back to normal," Hartley said. "I wouldn't say it's turmoil in town, per se, but people are just wondering what's going to happen."http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/09/slaughterhouse.child.labor.ap/index.htmlFor years labor leaders had inveighed against the use of child workers, emphasizing that such exploitation was largely due to the unwillingness of employers to pay adults adequate wages. Humanitarian arguments were stressed, but trade unionists could not help but be alarmed by the growing displacement of adults by youngsters and the lowering of wage scales in the industries employing them.http://www.snolabor.org/pages/cartoon.htm

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

fujishig
09-19-08, 11:56 AM
So it looks like CA will finally have to stop giving illegal immigrants in-state tuition at state colleges:

http://www.sbsun.com/ci_10494153?source=rss

I understand the argument that denying them a college education will only work against them actually becoming contributing members of society (and that in some cases, they lived here most of their adult life and that it was not their choice to come here)... but they still shouldn't get state-subsidized tuition when citizens from other states do not.

In reaching its decision, the court looked at a federal statute that was part of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act. That statute says that if a state gives any illegal immigrant "a postsecondary educational benefit" on the basis of residence, the same benefit must be given to every other eligible U.S. citizen student regardless of residence.

What amazes me is that not only were they violating federal law by giving any kind of state benefits to illegal aliens, they were directly violating this exact Act from 1996, which I don't think can be worded any clearer than it already is. Apparently, CA tried to get around it by giving in-state tuition based on 3 years of high school, arguing that it's different from residency, but I'm not sure how they thought that would stand up in court. The lawsuit was brought up by out-of-state citizens who claimed that this was discrimination. This had been thrown out by a lower court earlier, with the judge stating that he did not think that CA was violating federal law, and reinstated via appeals court.

From this article:
http://www.pe.com/localnews/sbcounty/stories/PE_News_Local_W_college19.218017d.html?npc

In the University of California system in the 2006-07 academic year, 1,184 of the 1,639 students who received the benefit were documented U.S. citizens, permanent residents or holders of an immigrant visa, according to an annual tuition exemption report.

In the community college system, an estimated 18,000 illegal immigrants receive the benefit, said Steve Bruckman, vice chancellor and general counsel.

That's nearly a third of UC students receiving the benefit that seem to be illegal immigrants (there may be other groups that fall outside of the boundaries listed above, but I'm not sure who).

Baron Of Hell
09-19-08, 12:22 PM
The only solution is to merge the United States and México into a single country.

Oh like in Shadowrun. Then there could be troll gangsters and dragon drug dealers also.

The Bus
09-25-08, 04:12 PM
Spoiled for size:<img src="http://www.reason.com/images/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg">

Franchot
09-25-08, 04:30 PM
Spoiled for size:<img src="http://www.reason.com/images/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg">

The point being that immigration into this country does not work efficiently? Okay. The government has dropped the ball badly when it comes to admitting legal immigrants and keeping out illegal immigrants.

huzefa
09-25-08, 04:45 PM
The point being that immigration into this country does not work efficiently? Okay. The government has dropped the ball badly when it comes to admitting legal immigrants and keeping out illegal immigrants.

I don't think that was the point. I think they were just trying to show how the system works (albeit in cartoon format).

I think the legal immigration system is set up perfectly; the criteria to keep people out and bring them in is pretty fair IMO. The only thing is the caps on immigration are not suited to the current century; they were written back in the '60s-'80s; if they were only to increase the amounts of people admitted to current trends, it would be a much better system.

An example: the current number of yearly green cards that can be handed out to qualified worker who wish to come to the US to get employed is 140,000 (approx. 0.000466666667% of the current US population); if they doubled that number to 280,000, that would still only be 0.000933333333% of the current US population.

But that doubling would cut wait-times for legal residents in half. These are generally the ones with decent jobs and pay their taxes on time and buy a lot of stuff, etc. etc.

NotThatGuy
10-07-08, 01:14 PM
That's nearly a third of UC students receiving the benefit that seem to be illegal immigrants (there may be other groups that fall outside of the boundaries listed above, but I'm not sure who).

They should be forced to pay the difference, but that won't be enforced....and instead tax payers are left to pick up the tab (difference between in-state and out of state tuition). The "lost" income from these instances is yet another hidden cost of illegal immigration. If I were a tax paying citizen in CA, I'd be really pissed off that not only did they take money from my pockets, but also there was a negative "opportunity cost" because every spot taken by an illegal immigrant could have gone to a law-abiding, tax paying, US citizen.

NotThatGuy
10-07-08, 01:17 PM
That cartoon illustrates the system may have some room for improvement, but it fails to show the 20+ million illegal immigrants who decided they did not want to abide by our laws, and instead broke into the country and essentially cut in front of every law-abiding person who wants to do things the right way and wants to contribute to this country. Just because a person doesn't AGREE with something, doesn't give them the right to play by their own rules.

al_bundy
10-07-08, 01:46 PM
the immigration part is at the very end


http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199803/18_smiths_depression/

If our economy is on the verge of deflation, this won't be the first time. American history is marked by recurring periods of deflation and inflation, what economists describe as the natural ebb and flow of any market economy. But more drastic episodes stand out as warning beacons about what can happen when deflation whirls out of control.

When you think total economic disaster, you think "The Great Depression." The misery began in 1929 and lasted more than a decade. Millions of Americans lost their jobs, their farms, their homes. Many more struggled to stay just above the deluge.


Man: It was a tough period to go through. Things were not very expensive, but if you didn't have money, you couldn't buy it anyway.
Woman: An old farmer worked hard out there in the field, laboring from sunup to sundown. And my husband was out there working in the corn fields. And he said, "We're not getting nuthin' for our food. We're not gettin' nuthin'."

Man: I remember one Christmas morning very vividly. We had Christmas services early in the morning that year. And people came with their Christmas cards to exchange with one another because they didn't have the postage.

The Great Depression was a world-wide economic catastrophe, the product of converging economic and historical currents that swelled to flood-stage in October of 1929, when Wall Street collapsed.


Michael Bernstein: The stock market crash is the great initiating event. It starts the Great Depression.
Michael Bernstein is an economic historian at the University of California at San Diego.


Bernstein: It destabilizes the financial sectors of the country, leads to an array of bank failures where literally banks have to lock their doors because they don't have sufficient cash to meet the demands of their customers, and that begins this precipitous series of events that lead to industries closing down, wide-spread unemployment, and of course, great distress in the farm belt.
Economic troubles had been building for years before the crash of '29. Throughout the '20s, farms and mines were chronically depressed. 600 banks collapsed each year. Prices plunged, and most households saw a drop in real income over the decade. Yet labor historian Peter Rachleff of Macalester College points out that huge sectors of the economy thundered along, especially automobiles, tires, and electrical products.


Rachleff: These were industries where worker productivity was quite high, but workers were not earning back a significant share of what they were producing. So workers were increasingly turning to credit as a way to acquire consumer goods - refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, radios, and automobiles - that they were producing. And the wages never caught up. And that led to goods that were repossessed that weren't done being paid for. That led to inventories swelling and workers being laid off or work weeks being cut, and spiral downwards then from that point in 1929 to really a low point, say, in 1932-33, when about a third of the work force was out of work altogether.
Prices tumbled by some 30%. Historian Michael Bernstein says across-the-board deflation lasted almost five years.


Bernstein: It's hard for us to understand, living in the late 20th century, through so many years of steady inflation. And what might look like a wonderful thing to our eyes, namely falling prices, was for many, many people in the United States in 1929, a disaster.
Man: When they went after a farmer who could not meet his financial obligations, liquidated him, and took - in many instances - everything except the farmer's wife and kids... that was the bitter end for a farmer.

Man: I knew a man [who] went out looking for work at a dollar a day.... Could not be found.

Americans today remember the Great Depression, but there was another dramatic period of deflation worth recalling, an era in which Americans fought an intense battle over the very value of money.

At the end of the 19th century, America lurched into a deflationary tailspin. Collapsing railroad companies helped touch off the crisis in the early 1890s. The resulting depression hit hardest in farm country, where commodity shipments depended on railroads and where the bulk of America's population still lived. Bank failures and farm foreclosures swept the landscape. In the winter of 1895, a newspaper journalist described life at a coal mining camp in Iowa:


Journalist: The 500 mine families of this locality are in the most destitute circumstances. They have little to eat in the way of wholesome food and their clothing - if it can be called that - is in utter tatters. All have a sickly appearance.
A banker in Sargent, Nebraska, wrote:


Banker: It is enough to make me heartsick to look at this once prosperous country. The suffering is terrible. We have several families who, for a month past, have had nothing to eat but flour and water, and are very thankful to get that. Scores of women and children stay barefooted for want of something to cover their feet. We are compelled to put our pride aside and ask for aid - immediate aid... anything to eat or wear.
Sparked by dropping prices, the depression took hold after a national financial panic in 1893. At the time, the value of the US dollar was pegged to the national gold reserves. Farmers and small business owners clamored for relief from Washington. A radical political movement called Populism swept the Midwest, demanding that the dollar be based on silver as well as gold. Populists said this "bi-metal" standard would ease the crushing burden of debt and help raise deflated prices. The silver plan was bitterly opposed by the big eastern corporations who had an economic stake in gold. In 1896, democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan argued the Populist position in his famous "Cross of Gold" speech, read here by actor Ed Begley.


Bryan: You come to us and tell us that the great cities are in favor of the gold standard. We reply that the great cities rest upon the our broad and fertile prairies. Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic. But destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country.
A catchy line, but it wasn't enough. Bryan lost the presidential race. It may be hard to imagine today, but a wide cross-section of America debated the details of monetary policy, because deflation and depression touched every American. The theme was so common that one of our culture's favorite stories is shot through with allegorical references to the fight over silver and gold.

"The Wizard of Oz" was written by former South Dakota newspaperman L. Frank Baum and first published in 1900, just after the American economy had started to recover. The movie came out four decades later. Political scientist Gretchen Ritter of the University of Texas says the Wizard of Oz is an allegorical map of monetary politics in the 1890's. Dorothy represented the common person. Many of the other characters were also allegorical.


Ritter: So the Scarecrow is the average farmer.
The Scarecrow: I haven't got a brain. Only straw.

Ritter: The Tin Man is an industrial worker who has lost his soul, if you will, lost his heart.

Dialogue: "Bang on my chest if you think I'm perfect." "Beautiful, what an echo!" "It's empty..."

Ritter: The Cowardly Lion, many people have taken to represent William Jennings Bryan. He's a politician who has a big roar but has a little trouble with courage.

The Cowardly Lion: I'll fight you with one paw tied behind my back.

Ritter: The Emerald City is, of course, a green city, and therefore the city of money. It is also the political center of the country, and as such, it is Washington. And so the Wizard, our other big figure, could be taken to be the president, or politicians in general, who have power - somebody who promises a lot but delivers little.

Dialogue: "You're a very bad man!" "Oh no my dear, I'm a very good man - just a very bad wizard."

The key detail changed in the movie was the color of Dorothy's slippers. MGM made them Technicolor ruby red, but Frank Baum's original Dorothy wore silver slippers. When she and her chums walked the golden road to Oz, Dorothy was mixing silver and gold. And Oz (O-Z, after all) is the acronym for the measure of gold and silver, the ounce. Ritter points out that when it comes to solutions, the Wizard is bankrupt. Dorothy and the rest must rely on their own innate power, just as 1890s Washington held no answers for those suffering from the depression.


Dialogue: "Will you help me? Can you help me?" "You've always had the power to go home." "I have?" "Why didn't you tell her before?" "Because she wouldn't have believed me. She had to find out for herself."
About 1897, after five years of struggle, deflation eased. Prices in America started to rise again and the economy recovered. But not, historians say, because of the wizards in Washington. Gold was still the monetary standard. Among the forces that healed the economy: a steady flow of immigration to the US which created a new, cheaper labor force and a vast new pool of consumers. But even though the American economy righted itself by the turn of the 20th century, it was still vulnerable. Prices were falling again just seven years later.

NotThatGuy
10-07-08, 01:46 PM
Here is a quick cartoon I made...obviously I'm not very talented, so excuse the stick figures.

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/9392/methodsofimmigrationoz0.jpg

NotThatGuy
10-07-08, 08:52 PM
No one pays attention to this thread anymore.

Post in this thread or the terro.....err.....illegal immigrants win. :(

(Kidding!)

wm lopez
10-10-08, 05:25 PM
[QUOTE=Franchot;8867624]I wouldn't have a problem with that as we absorb their oil, their labor, their farming, and their beautiful tourist spots. We already provide education, health care, and better wages for many of their citizens. We'd have to clean up the drug cartels, but it could be done.

But then you would have to pay them minium wage.
And that's what would send everything into more trouble.
Every eating place in a city downtown area would have to raise their prices, because they are paying their workers more. And the workers then would not be making enough money since they are not getting paid in cash and now have to pay taxes.

The Bus
10-10-08, 06:44 PM
That cartoon illustrates the system may have some room for improvement, but it fails to show the 20+ million illegal immigrants who decided they did not want to abide by our laws, and instead broke into the country and essentially cut in front of every law-abiding person who wants to do things the right way and wants to contribute to this country. Just because a person doesn't AGREE with something, doesn't give them the right to play by their own rules.

Just because a person is illegal, it doesn't mean they don't want to contribute to this country. (That does not mean everyone wants to).

This thread is no longer active because this completely faded away as a hot-button political issue.

fujishig
10-10-08, 07:29 PM
In a sense, we have removed at least some of the economic incentive for illegal aliens to come here in droves. The booming housing market created a lot of jobs (just look at the crowds that were waiting around for work outside of the local home depots just a few months ago) that I'm sure has since dried up.

There have been huge raids lately, though, so I am a little surprised there hasn't been a bit more discussion here.

NotThatGuy
10-10-08, 09:41 PM
This thread is no longer active because this completely faded away as a hot-button political issue.

It shouldn't...since the problem didn't go away.

In a sense, we have removed at least some of the economic incentive for illegal aliens to come here in droves. The booming housing market created a lot of jobs (just look at the crowds that were waiting around for work outside of the local home depots just a few months ago) that I'm sure has since dried up.

There have been huge raids lately, though, so I am a little surprised there hasn't been a bit more discussion here.

But they are still here, and they are suffering with the rest of us. It isn't really fair to anyone, but if they are taking up resources that are now more utilized than ever.....that punishes all of the law abiding citizens that deserve those services.

Franchot
10-10-08, 09:55 PM
Here ya go:

(Just to keep this thread active and to tie some of the foreclosure/bail-out mess in with the problems caused by the illegal immigrants in this country. )

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2008/sep/bailout-could-help-illegal-immigrants

Bailout Could Help Illegal Immigrants

The massive government bailout of the nation’s financial system could help thousands of illegal immigrants who obtained home loans from banks that were encouraged to offer them by the federal agency in charge of preserving and promoting public confidence in the system.

The controversial $700 billion bailout will offer foreclosure relief for those at risk of losing their homes and that includes thousands of illegal immigrants who got mortgages from U.S. financial institutions thanks to a push from Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), which began encouraging banks to offer services to illegal immigrants a few years ago.

Headquartered in Washington D.C., The FDIC insures more than $3 trillion of deposits in U.S. banks and is managed by a five-person board of directors appointed by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. In the last few years the agency succeeded in getting several large lending institutions to offer a variety of banking services to illegal aliens, including home loans.

Now U.S. banks routinely offer services to people without Social Security numbers by accepting the Mexican identification called matricula consular to open accounts. Some states—like Illinois and Wisconsin—even used millions of dollars in public funds to provide low-interest home loans for illegal immigrants with no credit history or documentation in the U.S.

The loan default rate among illegal immigrants is high because they are inherently unreliable, are prone to fraud and may be forced by circumstances to return to their home nation at any point, according to a congressman representing a state that operated a large mortgage fraud ring featuring hundreds of unqualified borrowers that used fake identities to get money.

The veteran Colorado Representative, Tom Tancredo, wants to assure that the bailout, set to pass this week, doesn’t offer incentives for illegal aliens. In a letter to his colleagues in Congress, Tancredo asked that safeguards be included on the bailout plan to verify the legal residency and identity of potential homebuyers. This will prevent illegal immigrants from obtaining federally backed home loans and assure that U.S. taxpayers are not absorbing their debts or bad loans made by banks to illegal aliens.

Could it be a coincidence that the area’s hardest hit by home foreclosures happen to be illegal immigrant sanctuaries like Las Vegas, large parts of southern and northern California and the famous Arizona sanctuary of Phoenix?

fujishig
10-10-08, 10:28 PM
I'm as against illegal immigrants as the next guy, but figured I'd post an article I read the other day:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immighome6-2008oct06,0,705991.story?track=rss

Here's the beginning of the article:


Illegal residents but responsible homeowners
Undocumented immigrants who own homes have a lower rate of delinquencies than U.S. citizens, according to various real estate sources.
By Anna Gorman
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

October 6, 2008

Three years ago, Jose Perez purchased a small condo northeast of San Francisco for nearly $250,000. Since then, the first-time buyer has watched the housing market collapse.

But Perez has managed better at avoiding foreclosure than thousands of other U.S. homeowners who bought at the peak of the market.

What makes his case special is that Perez is an illegal immigrant.

Home loans held by illegal immigrants in California and across the nation generally have had fewer delinquencies than similar loans held by U.S. citizens, in part because of stricter lending requirements, according to banks, insurers and Realtors.

"Every indication is that their performance is better than the average" mortgage account, said Tim Sandos, president of the National Assn. of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals.

More than 12,000 home loans were issued in recent years through a special program that relies on government-issued taxpayer identification numbers instead of Social Security numbers, according to the association.

The identification numbers, known as ITINs, were designed for foreign-born residents living legally in the U.S. but are widely acknowledged to be used primarily by illegal immigrants.

The real estate association does not keep statistics on foreclosure rates. But it has reported that the delinquency rates for taxpayer identification loans were 1.15% or lower in 2006, compared with about 3.5% for other home loans.

Although illegal immigrants are also feeling the effects of the downturn in the U.S. economy, Sandos and others cite one major factor for the success of taxpayer identification loans: stricter requirements, including larger down payments, pre-purchase counseling and fixed mortgage rates.

But there is another reason, Sandos said.

"They come for the promise of a better future," he said. "They come for the promise of homeownership. Once they have it, they are going to move heaven and Earth to keep it."



Of course, this isn't hard evidence... and I'm very much against American banks lending to people who can't provide SSN... what stops them from walking away? What's surprising is that the article is pretty much the opposite of what the previous article said... of course, this article doesn't take into account those that may have falsified or stolen an SSN...

Franchot
10-11-08, 02:06 AM
Of course, this isn't hard evidence... and I'm very much against American banks lending to people who can't provide SSN... what stops them from walking away? What's surprising is that the article is pretty much the opposite of what the previous article said... of course, this article doesn't take into account those that may have falsified or stolen an SSN...

You need to also take into account that the article was published by the LA Times. That says enough for me. The LA Times is very pro-amnesty and never writes articles that put illegal immigrants in a negative light. Until only recently, it refused to even use the term "illegal immigrant" in its paper. It was always "guest worker," "unregistered citizen" or some other politically correct crap term. In other words, the LA Times never met an illegal immigrant it didn't like.

(The LA Times won't even publish the fact that other candidates are running or contemplating running for the office of mayor next year. They continue to print the false story that Antonio Villarigosa is the only man with his hat in the ring.)

The reason that Jose Perez and other illegal immigrants might not default on their mortgages is that illegal immigrants don't spend money on healthcare, college tuition, etc. which legal citizens must spend their decreasing funds on. And, perhaps, Jose lives in an overcrowed house with many other illegal immigrant wage earners.

Franchot
10-11-08, 02:27 AM
And here's a recent article to counter your LA Times article:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2008/oct/illegal-immigrants-hold-5-million-fraudulent-mortgages

Illegal Immigrants Hold 5 Million Fraudulent Mortgages

Fri, 10/10/2008 - 11:49 — Judicial Watch Blog

A seldom-reported fact that has greatly contributed to the nation’s financial crisis is that millions of illegal immigrants across the U.S. have fraudulent home mortgages and many have defaulted.

The illegal aliens obtained the loans from banks that were pressured by the government to offer them. In fact, the agency in charge of preserving and promoting public confidence in the nation’s financial system, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), began pushing banks to offer services to illegal immigrants a few years ago.

As a result, some 5 million fraudulent home mortgages are in the hands of illegal aliens, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), a cabinet-level agency that strives to increase access to affordable housing free from discrimination. Now U.S. banks routinely offer services to people without Social Security numbers by accepting the Mexican identification called matricula consular to open accounts.

Mexican border states and sanctuary cities have been hit especially hard by mortgage foreclosures although every region has been negatively impacted by the federally-encouraged illegal immigrant loan scam. One of dozens of examples features an illegal alien in Arizona arrested after using a stolen Social Security number to buy two homes and rack up nearly $1 million in debt.

The loan default rate among illegal immigrants is high because they are inherently unreliable, prone to fraud and may be forced to return to their home nation, according to a congressman representing a state that operated a mortgage fraud ring with hundreds of unqualified borrowers that used fake identities to get money.

Now the $700 billion government bailout of the nation’s financial system will help illegal immigrants who can’t afford their home loans. Isn’t it enough that U.S. taxpayers are already spending tens of billions of dollars annually for their education, health care and other costly social services?

The Bus
10-11-08, 09:07 AM
It's true that they were started in Wisconsin, or at least popularized there. To speak correctly of these loans, they are ITIN loans. That is, set up by illegal immigrants who have obtained an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number to <i>(gasp!)</i> pay taxes. It has nothing to do with fraudulent identification, since the lenders (and investors) knew what the situation is/was.

The article I remember reading (about ~2-3 years ago) specifically stated that in this banks, multi-hundred-million dollar portfolio, there wasn't a single default and these loans were performing better than average.

Franchot and fujishig are talking about two different things. The only thing they share in common is the fact that illegal immigrants were the borrowers. As such, neither can be a condemnation or proof that illegal immigrants are "better" or "worse" borrowers than anyone else.

Shazam
10-11-08, 10:25 AM
I have always found it odd how Americans beat the drum about "free markets" when it comes to the distribution of capital, yet when it comes to the movement of labour, you're more protectionist than the French.

wishbone
10-11-08, 11:15 AM
It's true that they were started in Wisconsin, or at least popularized there. To speak correctly of these loans, they are ITIN loans. That is, set up by illegal immigrants who have obtained an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number to <i>(gasp!)</i> pay taxes. It has nothing to do with fraudulent identification, since the lenders (and investors) knew what the situation is/was.As a result of SSA’s new policy regarding non-work SSNs, the use of ITINs for work purposes may increase. Non-citizens in the United States without work authorization who were previously able to use non-work SSNs for tax purposes may now obtain an ITIN and present it to a prospective employer as an SSN and use it instead for wage reporting.http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=1235Aside from tax payments, an ITIN can also be used to access financial services. Some banks may take the ITIN as part of your identification when you apply for a bank loan or credit card. However, there are limitations to the use of an ITIN from a legal standpoint. The ITIN cannot replace a Social Security Number (SSN), especially when it comes to working rights. The placement of on ITIN on work documents constitutes fraud.http://ezinearticles.com/?Using-an-Individual-Taxpayer-Number-(ITIN)-To-Build-Credit&id=1104729The IRS created a nine-digit Individual Tax Identification Number in 1996 for foreigners who don’t have Social Security numbers but need to file taxes in the U.S. But it is increasingly used by undocumented workers to file taxes, apply for credit, get bank accounts or even buy a home.

The IRS issued 1.5 million ITINs in 2006 — a 30 percent increase from the previous year. All told, the tax liability of ITIN filers between 1996 and 2003 was $50 billion. The agency has no way to track how many were immigrants, but it’s widely believed most people using ITINS are in the United States illegally.

One number hints at the number of illegal immigrants having income taxes deducted from their paychecks.

In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn’t match a Social Security Number. More than half were from California, Texas, Florida and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants. Even immigrants who use ITINs to file taxes are forced to make up a Social Security Number when they get a job.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/ITINs were created for foreign investors and other visitors to the U.S., who owe taxes, but are not eligible to get a social security number.

Many illegal aliens have gotten ITINs. This allows them to file taxes legally in the U.S, even though they may not have the necessary immigration status.

This number is issued by the IRS for tax purposes only. The ITIN holder does not have the right to live or work in the U.S. because they have the card. However, it does give them a way to buy a house.

There are some strict rules to these ITIN mortgage loans.

- These loans require that you fully disclose your income.
- The loan amount should not exceed $300,000.
- The rates will be in the mid 9.000%-11.000% range and will not be interest only but they don't require mortgage insurance.
- 100% financing is sometimes available but 95% is much more common. http://activerain.com/blogsview/186773/Buying-a-Home-without

So if you are providing false documentation to obtain work and then fully disclose this income along with your ITIN to obtain a mortgage loan then how does this not constitute fraudulent identification?

Franchot
10-11-08, 12:33 PM
I have always found it odd how Americans beat the drum about "free markets" when it comes to the distribution of capital, yet when it comes to the movement of labour, you're more protectionist than the French.

Don't lump me in with those Americans. I am not a fan of all things "capitalistic" and am very much in favor of restricting the movement of labour because it protects both the citizens of this country as well as those citizens who have been granted amnesty or are about to get amnesty. I contend that allowing the unrestricted flow of illegal immigrants into this country weakens the security of the country as well as creating a new class of "slave" workers.

Shazam
10-11-08, 01:29 PM
Don't lump me in with those Americans. I am not a fan of all things "capitalistic" and am very much in favor of restricting the movement of labour because it protects both the citizens of this country as well as those citizens who have been granted amnesty or are about to get amnesty. I contend that allowing the unrestricted flow of illegal immigrants into this country weakens the security of the country as well as creating a new class of "slave" workers.Restricting labour doesn't do any of those things, and actually does the opposite, but hey, whatever.

Superboy
10-13-08, 12:20 AM
Don't lump me in with those Americans. I am not a fan of all things "capitalistic" and am very much in favor of restricting the movement of labour because it protects both the citizens of this country as well as those citizens who have been granted amnesty or are about to get amnesty. I contend that allowing the unrestricted flow of illegal immigrants into this country weakens the security of the country as well as creating a new class of "slave" workers.

If by "protect" you mean "weakened international competitiveness in the face of rising globalization" and by "slave workers" you mean "determinants of the true value of labor in the market" and by "weakens the security of the country" you mean that somehow the government is otherwise capable of dealing with security threats, then you're right.

VinVega
10-13-08, 06:58 AM
Closing for length. Over 800 posts.

New thread part 7: HERE (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/politics-world-events/541508-one-only-illegal-immigration-thread-part-vii.html#post9000678)