Tarantino

Over time there has been many threads about 'special treatment'. Well, it seems Howard from Vivid (in the adult forums) does nothing but basically spam his website and company in every thread. Here's the post of Mojo's that I have to agree with...

Any reason why this guy is allowed to spam all day <i>and</i> has an avatar?

= J

Rogue588

By "every thread", you mean the ones he starts...right? I've yet to see him post in TV Talk or Sports Talk.

However, I think Don broke it down quite succinctly...

Ranger

I'm fine with 'shills' as long they're G! approved, which usually means they are totally legit and actually willing to contribute good info.

Most people would be pretty excited if there were actually G! approved reps in other forums - including dvd main, comic book talk, movie talk, tv talk, etc. Unfortunately, we often get spammers from shady dealers instead.

NCMojo

I'll post here what I posted in the Adult Forum. (This is really a better place for this kind of discussion anyway.)

It's not just "an adult release", Don. It's every single goddamn post that he makes. He's not being given a "modicum of latitude" -- he's starting up new threads on a regular basis for no other purpose than to pimp his brand.

You are kidding me, right? His user name includes the name of his company! Maybe he's not linking to his company site, but it's not like it take Albert Einstein to figure out it's probably at "vivid.com".

So it would be OK for me to work for the Hershey Chocolate company and come in here and brag about how wonderfuckinglicious our new Mister Nutterbar is day after day after day... as long as I don't link to hershey.com? You can't be serious.

Last time I checked, openly expressing an opinion was not listed on the list of bannable offenses. If Geoff were the kind of owner who would run around banning people who question what he does here, I don't think this site would run as well as it does. I am not accusing Geoff of defrauding anyone -- it's his site, he can do whatever he may please, including (if he'd like) banning me or you or anyone else who questions his actions. But I don't think Geoff is that petty, and (to be honest) I don't think that Geoff is that duplicious. I think he allowed Howard to join this site under the best of intentions, and I think he is being hosed. If he's going to allow someone to pretend to be a real member here (how often does Howard post in other threads? How many of his threads do more than shill his company?), then he ought to hold him accountable.

Mopower

I agree with Mojo. When does it stop? Even if reps from other areas and companies start posting in other forums are there going to be 5 threads per page that are nothing but advertisements? I don't care if a rep from a company wants to post here and put his company and info in his sig. Posting his two cents about the industry and what his company can do is one thing but to use the forum as a billboard is ridiculous. Especially when it is something as shady as the porn industry. It's obvious that porn makes this site money. There is a forum devoted to it. There are ads devoted to it. Industry reps are given special treatment and are allowed to post and advertise in it. It's obvious something is going on.

wildcatlh

Hold who accountable? Howard@Vivid certanly doesn't hide anything. Geoff being hosed? Like he can't see what our vivid rep is saying? You're confusing me.

In the end, this is Geoff's site. He gets to make the calls. If you don't like them... quite frankly, does it really matter? If you want to start mojotalk.com you can make your own rules. Until then, playing forum police is petty and solves absolutely nothing.

LurkerDan

mmmm, duplicious.
It would be ok if Geoff was ok with it. In fact, it would be ok to link to hershey.com 15 times a day, if Geoff was ok with it.

bwvanh114

Hershey <i>is</i> the most wonderfuckinglicious chocolate, I've ever tasted. -- Bob@hersheychocolate.

I just wanted to commend NCMojo for having the balls to say what he feels. Giving feedback in the feedback forum should not be a bannable offense.

Mopower

It will matter when the day comes and every forum is flooded with spam threads selling shit. This is basically the start of that. But if you want to wade thru the crap to get to real member threads go right ahead.

wildcatlh

Except the slippery slope argument doesn't apply here. Geoff giving howard@vivid the right to post on here, giving the Deep Discount rep the right to post on here, giving the DVD Pacific rep the right to post here, and giving other site reps (I can't remember the others that are here, but I'm sure there are more) does not automatically give others the right to shill their own companies. They've all been here for a while and yet we haven't seen any flood of spam threads. They show up, they get deleted, the poster is banned, and we move on.

Houstondon

NC: "It's not just "an adult release", Don. It's every single goddamn post that he makes. He's not being given a "modicum of latitude" -- he's starting up new threads on a regular basis for no other purpose than to pimp his brand."

He was chastised for the multiple thread matter and has kept it to the single open thread with regard to the KK DVD. Considering that Vivid releases a half dozen or so movies a week, and that Howard has been here over a year, your worries about a wave of spam seem to be unfounded.

""You are kidding me, right? His user name includes the name of his company! Maybe he's not linking to his company site, but it's not like it take Albert Einstein to figure out it's probably at "vivid.com". So it would be OK for me to work for the Hershey Chocolate company and come in here and brag about how wonderfuckinglicious our new Mister Nutterbar is day after day after day... as long as I don't link to hershey.com? You can't be serious."

So you admit that I was correct in my assertion then, right? Keep in mind who set up his avatar after personally approving it (hint: it wasn't me).

"Last time I checked, openly expressing an opinion was not listed on the list of bannable offenses. If Geoff were the kind of owner who would run around banning people who question what he does here, I don't think this site would run as well as it does. I am not accusing Geoff of defrauding anyone -- it's his site, he can do whatever he may please, including (if he'd like) banning me or you or anyone else who questions his actions."

Go back and read your post again and tell me that I was wrong in my assertion. You wrote it, I commented. I know you have probably posted a thousand times more than I have since you've joined and if that entitles you to being an informal forum cop in your mind, I strongly suggest you take the matter up with G! as suggested before (particularly if you're going to continually make accusations that are unfounded).

I can respect that we disagree on the matter but G! reads the forums too and has posted on this topic a few times in the past, including the recent past, so grandstanding in both the forums with what amounts to calling the website owner out on the topic yet again strikes me as someone lacking in the established manners that make this a decent forum. If you REALLY had an issue with how G! was handling this, you'd have emailed him with your concern. As it is, you seem more intent on stiring up a handful of likeminded folks to march on city hall in protest. I'm not suggesting you be banned, suspended, or otherwise sanctioned but I do think you've made your point enough times to take it to email with the owner.

Howard has an avatar and you can block his posts if you like (which might be preferable for all involved) or simply skip threads he starts. If he starts plugging every title that comes out from his company in a new thread, I'll personally give him a wedgie when I see him at the next show. Is that good enough for you?

Josh H

I don't like having company reps around either. The ads on this site are annoying enough to begin with, without having glorified schills posting.

It's ok if its just guys that answer questions in the store forum etc. But that's where I draw the line. If they want to provide customer assistance, great. Starting threads to whore their company, pun intended, is too much IMO.

NCMojo

You know, it's odd that nobody can comment on how this site is run. Seems like a place with a forum called "Feedback" would be open to, you know, "feedback". Strange.

In any case... I already said, yeah, it's Geoff's site. But we're more than just loyal grateful sheep. We're the customer in this relationship. We're not here to serve Geoff -- Geoff is here to serve us. Unpaid volunteers make up 99% of the content and management of this site, so it behooves him to at least listen to what forum members have to say.

And again... I'm not telling Geoff to go fuck himself. (Although that would have been a suitable topic for the Adult Forum.) I respect the fact that this is his forum, his business, his rules. If he wants to have forum members here shilling their products left and right, well, that's his prerogative. If he's okay with it, then it goes without saying that it will be allowed.

But then everyone can make up their own minds about whether or not they want to be a part of a site that allows that kind of behavior. Maybe you're okay with it and will stay -- maybe other people will find it offensive and will leave. Similarly, Geoff could start running 30 second interstatial flash ads every 3rd click through the site, or he could disable the search feature for everyone except premium members. He could do any of these things, and it's his site, and his right... but then we, the customers, would also have the right to decide whether or not to stay on the forum.

NCMojo

So by your logic, it's okay if a member here only occasionally creates a thread to plug his company and their upcoming videos? Kind of like it's all right to occasionally post a racist thread, or occasionally engage in personal attacks???

And note that the thread in question is a press release -- he's not just casually hocking a new product, he's posting his company's official press releases! Including a contact e-mail and phone number! How on earth is this acceptable by any interpretation of the forum rules?

I actually had avatar's blocked -- I had no idea that his avatar actually included his company's logo and website:



You are aware that your assertation was "Do you see a lot of promotion for his personal site in this or other threads?" I mean... yeah, now that I've turned on avatars... you know, I do see a lot of promotion for his personal site in his threads! Huh! Fancy that.

So now you -- wait, I must have misread this -- you are accusing me of being a "forum cop"??? Aren't you the one taking me to task and speaking in the name of Geoff Kleinmann, DVDTalk and Kleinmann.com Inc.?

I did take this matter up with Geoff. I e-mailed him on this matter, and got no response. I've reported his posts to moderators. And then, finally, I responded in-thread. Which, last time I checked, is what we're supposed to be doing around here.

And Don... I've spoken of you before in Adult Talk with a good degree of respect. Just because I have posted a "thousand times" more than I have doesn't mean that I am even 10% as important as you. All I have done is dicked around on the forum, making stupid jokes and being a liberal ass. You have established yourself as a legitimate voice in the adult entertainment field, with tons of entertaining and informative reviews. (Admittedly, I've only read two -- both linked from threads -- but those were pretty good.)

As stated, I have emailed the owner. But I also believe that a lot of the operation of this forum -- as with any community -- should be transparent. If someone sees something they don't like or don't agree with, they should speak out so everyone can comment. If they're wrong (recent posts by a certain banished poster in this forum come to mind) then the community will speak out against them. If they're right, they'll get support. And yeah, if that resembles a "march on City Hall in protest", then I'm okay with that. Frankly, I'd like to see more marches on City Hall, not less. I'd like to see more people speaking up, without fear of being banned or suspended. (Within the framework of the rules, of course.)

No. Sorry. I'd sort of like to have this thread and express my opinion, if that's okay. Wedgie him all you want... or, better still, since you apparently have something of a personal relationship with the man... why don't you talk with him and get him to see the difference between participation and out-and-out shilling?

Ranger

Dunno why that is bad. Imagine if some rep from a major video game company, with G's approval, was posting info to share with interested forum members. What's wrong with that?

AFAIK, he has gotten porn stars to post here. That hypothetical video game rep could get some well-known game programmers to chat here a bit about upcoming games, much to the forum's pleasure.

G! has interviewed some well-known people already.

As was said before, the owner can make exceptions. Simple as that.

NCMojo

It would be great to have industry insiders here as forum members to give us the lowdown on everything from DVD special features to video game features to which skank from the Real World is releasing a sex tape.

But that's not what howard@vivid is doing. He's not sharing his industry knowledge... he's continually hocking his product. He doesn't participate in other threads. He rarely makes new threads that do not specifically involve Vivid. Would you be OK if your hypothetical video game rep did nothing but trumpet the new Gears of War game and hype up his company's software titles? No, of course not. Same deal.

Sure, and forum members can complain all they want. If Geoff wants to show up and tell me to STFU, then fine... but again, I don't think that he wants this forum to be some kind of personal fiefdom.

Tarantino

Gotta say, I still agree with Mojo. It'd be fine if the guy came through and posted regularly, added something to the forums. Instead, he'll show up when the new Ray J DVD is coming out and hock it, defend the porn industry for a sec, then disappear...until the next release.

It's in the forum rules, and shouldn't be allowed. It's like letting some people get away with breaking the law, but not most people...only if they're paying the cops.

= J

NatrlBornThrllr

I vehemently agree with Mojo's stance here. The guy doesn't promote competing releases. He pushes his product, and his product alone...and is allowed to do so while everybody else here is strictly held to a rather specific rule that stringently shuns this very action. I understand that Geoff can do as he pleases, but if this alone is your rationalization for why these posts continually go without reprimand, you can't then in good conscience turn and tell us that there is no favoritism on these forums.

Furthermore, it's a damn shame that our cries of discontent have already been preemptively dismissed by a moderator as mere sheep-like protest (and, furthermore, deemed pugnacious enough to potentially warrant a ban).

Houstondon

Okay, to put this all in perspective:
Threads: 203,954, Posts: 3,963,335, Members: 60,258 Complainers in this thread: 4

Otherwise, I appreciate your honesty NCMojo. You admitted that you sent an email to the owner of the website stating your discontent with his practices and upon not receiving a timely answer to your satisfaction (an answer contrary to said owner's already stated approval of specific company reps at that), you took it upon yourself to play forum cop. And while it's nice to twist this into something different, remember that it's the same handful of people complaining; in effect trying to run off forum participants that others seem to appreciate having around (including Nikki Nine, Sunny Leone, Howard from Vivid, Megan from Shane's World).

Playing "net lawyer wannabe" doesn't strengthen your case either when you try to ascribe things to me that I did not say or allude to either; ie: my "logic" was that G! owns the website=G! makes the rules and exceptions; also interpreting them.

Mopower: "It will matter when the day comes and every forum is flooded with spam threads selling shit."

How melodramatic can you be?!? A handful of posts by a handful of people has not caused the end of Western Civilization to date, nor is anyone going to allow that to happen. Vivid releases hundreds of titles a year and one of their VP's has promoted less than a handful.

NCMojo, So now you -- wait, I must have misread this -- you are accusing me of being a "forum cop"??? Aren't you the one taking me to task and speaking in the name of Geoff Kleinmann, DVDTalk and Kleinmann.com Inc.? I did take this matter up with Geoff. I e-mailed him on this matter, and got no response. I've reported his posts to moderators.

Well, YOU are the one repeatedly yelling about the posting of a particular person as being a violation of the rules, not having gained satisfaction by taking it up with the owner, you've done your best to rally others to your cause. If he had never posted anything about allowing such people to promote their stuff, I'd see your point but like established court rulings that set precedent, he HAS discussed this openly in the past, ruling IN FAVOR of some limited promotions. I speak only for myself but I'm sort of acquainted with G! and having read his past comments on the matter, I tend to respect them on his website. When I decide that I can't live with his rules, I'll find another place to slither off to and try and dominate...

And before we go any further, it's not about my expertise in porn, friendship with G!, status as one many content providers, or other outside factors that gets me to suggest some of you cool your jets a bit. (and NBT, I'm NOT a moderator, their job is even more thankless than a porn reviewer, with fewer fringe benefits-this current discussion started long ago and has been settled repeatedly by G!, much to a few people's chagrin) My comment was strictly a guess that sometimes when someone participates a lot, they get the notion that their version of the rules is somehow morally superior or more worthy. I don't mean that in a harsh sense, just a casual observation from spending years online.

"I'd like to see more people speaking up, without fear of being banned or suspended."

I'm not going to spend a lot of time pointing out that this is neither a democracy or a democratic republic; this is a private forum owned by an individual. My comments regarding sanctions were NOT related to your speaking up, they were about accusing the owner of fraud and about beating a dead horse a great many times. Further, it doesn't help your point of view when you and your handful of followers start greatly exaggerating various points in a Chicken Little fashion. HOW you approach this matter is likely to bear heavily on how much consideration will be given (again, drawing on insider knowledge here but not making too big a leap).

"No. Sorry. I'd sort of like to have this thread and express my opinion, if that's okay."

See, this is part of the problem. You've had your say, and had it repeatedly, but didn't like that thousands of people did not rally to your cause. You also got upset because the website owner apparently did not see things your way, so now you're trying to invoke some sort of mob rule. The problem is that this has largely fallen on deaf ears with the majority of forum members too, even this thread divided fairly evenly against your demands.

NBT: "He pushes his product, and his product alone"
Mojo: "It'd be fine if the guy came through and posted regularly, added something to the forums."

Actually, he made a nice comment about Shane's World products a week ago, congratulated Sex Z Pictures' awards this year ("But I want to throw big kudos out to Bo Kenny at SEXY Pictures") in another thread, has answered several questions regarding Jenna Jameson, added to the discussion about dirtiest porn stars, discussed celebrities he'd sleep with, fussed at art, discussed various other things and provided insights from the industries POV, talked about Lindsay Lohan's wardrobe malfunction, and asked for input on company decisions (like their new condom policy) as well.

I'm not going to tell any of you to STFU but you're faring about as well as art used to back when he was still around. Again, it's G!'s call to make and if you can't respect that, well...

PS: If you really want to have an impact on matters like this, you're going about it the wrong way. If any of you would like ot discuss it via email with me, I'm easy to find (all the reviews for example...lol)

GeoffK

DVDTalk does not receive any money from any adult studio. We have an exclusive adult advertiser adultdvdempire.com. We give offical reps from companies avatars on request... Porn or not. So members know that infact we've verified they are officially speaking for the company they represent. Howard has crossed the line several times and I've admonished him for it. Bur some of his so called shilling has been getting feedcack which actually impacts what vivid produces. Its a fine line and I'l remind howard that he sorely pissed all you off and he needs to keep his promo side off the firum.

G

jonw9

Well, if you want to, you can make it 6.

I kinda read Howard threads like I did Art threads. Hopelessly annoying, no technical merit, but damn funny to read.

I also feel since Art was banned, Don feels the need to continue to debate topics with members. It is like NCMojo is the forum cop, Don makes himself the forum judge and jury.

Houstondon

"It is like NCMojo is the forum cop, Don makes himself the forum judge and jury."

Just so long as G! is the executioner, that's fine by me.

Unlike a few others in this thread that troll endlessly in the politics and other forums, I generally stick to a handful of topics and will defend my positions as I see fit. Hopefully, this matter is now settled (again!).

Bushdog

I mostly avoided those threads. I knew who posted them, and I had a good guess at the content. I don't scour the adult forum like mojo may, but I haven't seen him pop in much to other threads to hijack them.

If they are going to contain sales pitches within single threads, that's a dream come true. I do not believe it could be easier to avoid the pitch. Better than some of these annoying ads.

Just my .02.

Josh H

Looks like we are all right since he just cried and left when Geoff got on him about this.

Moderator note: Please do not post links to the Adult forum in other forums

He clearly had no interest in being a contributing member here, and simply was here to schill.

Good riddance.

Houstondon

"He clearly had no interest in being a contributing member here, and simply was here to schill."

I read everything he posted while researching the claims made by the handful of haters. While he may have stepped over the line from time to time, he did indeed provide a lot more than just shilling posts. As predicted, a few of you tried your best to run him off, possibly succeeding for now, just as some of you ran off Sunny Leone and have attempted to run off Nikki Nine with rude comments. It's a shame that a handful of bullies are allowed to do this but not unexpected as it happens in most internet forums. If you don't like a person's posts, simply skip them unless you have something worth saying...