Buttmunker

I understand that actor Vincent D'Onofrio, who played Pvt. Pyle, gained 70 pounds for his role in Full Metal Jacket.

My question is this: why didn't director Stanley Kubrick film the scenes of the final weeks of boot camp first, to show a thinner Pyle for realistic purposes? There's no way, even if you're as pathetic as Pyle was, that you could go through 16 weeks of boot camp and not lose any weight!! (And if that did happen, he surely would never have passed.) If the actor bulked up for the role, his max weight should have been filmed last.

My second question is more of an opinion: if Gny. Sgt. Hartman had simply stopped being "big shot hot ass" drill instructor and started being a real human being to Pyle in the latrine, then both Hartman and Pyle would still be alive. What, Hartman thought that yelling at the obvious psychopath was going to deter him from firing his weapon?! Kinda stupid...

sundog

and if "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts...

Pyle is the faulty cog in the machine, physically and mentally. The fact that his physical condition does not improve illustrates that he still does not belong even after the soap beating and his "lessons" are learned. What allowed him to pass was that mental breakdown that created the tenuous working cog in the machine leading to graduation.

It's the classic Kubrickian "system failing": a seemingly perfect system encounters a setback that is corrected on the surface but in its core is corrupted beyond repair.

Then you see that Hartmann is stuck in his own role as the trainer and correcter and his own strict adherence to the system dooms him in a moment when more sympathetic human compassion could alleviate the problem. But that instinct has been since eradicated.

Like in most Kubrick works, it's about human instinct vs. machine system.

Of course, there are views that Full Metal Jacket is less about that and more about masculine vs. feminine but that's for another discussion.

Buttmunker

Pyle was beyond the beyonds, that is for sure, but there's no way he could have passed just for being a good shot with his rifle. You have to pass PT, which usually requires 20 pull-ups, 50 situps (under a certain amount of time), and 20 pushups (under a certain amount of time). And this was the requirement in the 90's when I was in the Marines. I'm sure that the 1960's Marine had more to do than that (maybe).

I'm just saying...if D'Onofrio was willing to gain so much weight, he really should have been utilized and filmed right. But you're right..."ifs" and "buts" ...

sundog

Maybe he's just big-boned...

I do understand your concern. And Kubrick was always one for letting the audience bring their own expecations and experiences to his movies.

So perhaps you can see that his success in camp despite his physical condition shows how the system is failing in more than one respect.

devilshalo

Was it 16 weeks? Didn't they speed up some of the time in basic so you completed it sooner? Besides, would his look give the same impact if he was buffed out like he was in Adventures in Babysitting?

Buttmunker

Not buffed out...just...less Pyle. Guess there was less Pyle - he lost a lot of weight in his head.

pdinosaur

along those lines, the army is sort of a killing machine factory. people come into the army with a humanity that is almost instantaneously revoked. names are replaced with nicknames.

speaking to vincent in any sort of compassionate way would have brought humanity back into the picture. there must be no variety in how the DS interacts with his subordinates and most certainly no interaction that shows any emotion (unless you want to call "these are my expectations, you will fill them or else" an emotion).

Filmmaker

FULL METAL JACKET is not a documentary, it is an allegory.

Minor Threat

kantonburg

I'm more surprised that I didn't know Pyle was Vincent D'Onofrio than anything. I never dawned on me till I just saw it mentioned it above.

dvdsteve2000

He passed, but it was wartime, so a body is a body, PLUS he was a good shot. I'm sure the emphasis was on his ability to kill, not to do PT.

paradicelost

i would believe that in the Army, from what i've heard the Army is the only branch that pushes and will do almost anything to get every soldier through BCT, all the other branches if you arn't at least average at everything(marksmanship, PT, classroom) then they have no problem sending your ass home(of course that was a First Seargent in the army that told me that so i guess you have to consider the source). And even during wartime i find it hard to believe that the Marines wouldn't at least restart the guy.
And with the weight loss thing i'm as lazy and as useless as Pyle and even i lost 25 pounds in basic and that was in the army and in the span of 9 weeks.
Though when it comes to the context to FMJ I agree with sundog.

Cameron

I'm sure if Kubrick wanted him thin he would have miracled his ass thin.

whoopdido

Are you sure that's what the requirements are? That really doesn't make sense to me. I'm far from a physical specimen. I'm not obese or anything but I'm definitely not in shape and wouldn't consider myself physically strong. Even in my current state of not being in shape whatsoever I could do 20 pushups and 50 situps without breaking a sweat. However, I probably couldn't do more than 5 or 6 pullups no matter how hard I tried. I assume that marines have to be in pretty damn good shape to pass PT so I can see the 20 pullups but it seems to be that the 20 pushups and 50 situps would be way too easy. I assume that a guy that can do 20 pull ups could do 20 pushups and 50 situps as easily as I can walk 5 feet. It just seems to me that 20 pullups would be tough so the pushup and situp "challenge" should be equally as tough.

The Bus

Wh-whaaaat?!?

GIjon213

He is right about pushing people through, much to my chagrin.

Josh-da-man

During the Vietnam War there was a draft; presumably if it were that easy to wash out of basic training most would have done so.

Buttmunker

It works this way: an average guy can do all those things pretty easily on the first day of boot camp, but the military "breaks down your muscles," then rebuilds them. What you could accomplish on the first day ends usually by the 2nd week...you started being about to 10 pull-ups, then you find you can only do 2. Its frustrating to the grunt, and that's the point. The military rebuilds their recruits to what they want! After 16 weeks, you're stronger than you ever were.

paradicelost

I'm not sure about the Marines but when i was in bct, You have to do at least 50% of the Army's standards of pt, so the average pt test was somewhere between 30-40 pushups, 40-50 situps under 2 minutes and you had to run 2 miles under 16:30(depending on your age). And to graduate AIT you had to be at 60%.

DarthMarino

Don't forget that he was also sneaking food back the barracks.

Sex Fiend

And there you have your answer, folks.

What makes FMJ a scathing (and relatively accurate) portrayal of the pitfalls of the military training "system" (especially during the Vietnam era) is that Pyle should be rejected by the "system" not only for being poorly suited physically, but also for being poorly suited emotionally. Yet, as he metamorphoses from a fragile yet basically decent human being into a psychopath under Hartmann's training, he also ironically comes to better personify the "Marine standard" in Hartmann's eyes ins pite of whatever physical (or other) shortcomings he might have.

As for the point that the Marines should have rejected him simply because he didn't excel at the PT aspect of boot camp, I'm relatively certain that during the Vietnam era not much consideration was given to physical conditioning of recruits beyond being able to be fairly ambulatory. It's common knowledge that during wartime (and any other time when enlistment quotas are down) most branches of the military implement a sliding scale as to what comprises their "minimum acceptable" standards for active service personnel.

Heck, at the moment, I bet if Dom Deluise signed up to be a Marine, they would have him stationed in Baghdad within the week.

PopcornTreeCt

Great discussion. I wish we had a Kubrick sub-forum.