What killed the Western?
10-23-06, 05:19 PM
#1
DVD Talk Godfather
Thread Starter
What killed the Western?
A simple question I don't have the answer to. What caused the popularity of Westerns to drop off? It seems to be more than movies: comic books and bedsheets no longer come in many cowboy themes. What's your take on it?
10-23-06, 05:26 PM
#2
DVD Talk Limited Edition
I wasn't aware it was dead. Most genre movies go through periods of popularity and non-popularity. There always seems to be a surge when one popular one breaks through, and the studios jump on the scripts they've been sitting on for years. Same thing happens with Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Time Travel, Body-Switching movies, etc.
Also, Open Range is one of my favorite Westerns, new or old. And The Proposition, while slow, was very good as well.
Also, Open Range is one of my favorite Westerns, new or old. And The Proposition, while slow, was very good as well.
10-23-06, 05:56 PM
#3
Because there isn't much you can do with Westerns. It isn't as much as a genre as it is a setting. I love Westerns but unlike other genres such as Sci-Fi which can range from cloning to aliens or Fantasy which can be modern or Medieval, Western is sorta specific time period and place. I don't doubt there are still fantastic Westerns to be made, it's just that so far no one can.
10-23-06, 07:15 PM
#4
DVD Talk Legend
Part of the problem is, they can only make one kind of western these days. No one is going to see a singing cowboy, or the Lone Ranger, unless they turn him into a Batman-like psychotic revenge-killer loner. Movies like the John Ford westerns will never be made again.
The other problem is that hollywood doesn't have the kind of men they need to put in westerns anymore. Where are the James Coburns, the Slim Pickins, the Ernest Borgnines? Hell, where can you even find a decent Clint Eastwood like actor anymore? And John Wayne? Ha! The closest we have today is the governator. I don't think there were very many aryan robot cowboys.
The other problem is that hollywood doesn't have the kind of men they need to put in westerns anymore. Where are the James Coburns, the Slim Pickins, the Ernest Borgnines? Hell, where can you even find a decent Clint Eastwood like actor anymore? And John Wayne? Ha! The closest we have today is the governator. I don't think there were very many aryan robot cowboys.
10-23-06, 08:02 PM
#5
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Smells like Young Guns needs a remake with the cast of the OC/One Tree Hill/Supernatural .. although wasn't there going to be a remake of Silverado?
C'mon.. Sean Williams Scott as Jake? Comedy gold, I tell ya... Dude, where's my horse?
C'mon.. Sean Williams Scott as Jake? Comedy gold, I tell ya... Dude, where's my horse?
10-23-06, 08:18 PM
#6
Moderator
What killed the western? At least two things, which are entertwined:
1. The western is the story of westward expansion, and the conquering of wilderness. Improvements in technology by the 1960s made the American west a far less exotic, faraway place for most Americans than it had been 20 years previously. Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, and Phoenix were no longer in the middle of nowhere, but were instead on the forefront of the American population boom, thanks to more automobiles and the increasing commonness of ciivilian jet arline travel. Thus, the public romanticization of the West faded away.
2. Vietnam, and the increasing public disquiet with state-sanctioned violence and territorial conquest and expansion. With the growing unpopularity with was was beginning to be perceived as American 'imperialism', no longer could we watch movies about the conquering of exotic lands and exotic peoples as mindless entertainment. The real world had intruded, and made these stories much more morally dark or ambiguous. Now, several excellent westerns like The Wild Bunch mined this moral ambiguity with great artistic success, but it could no longer be the stuff of mass entertainment. Even the westerns John Wayne made in the late 60s and early 70s, such as The Shootist had an elegaic quality that would have been a bit out of place a decade earlier (the films of John Ford excepted.)
1. The western is the story of westward expansion, and the conquering of wilderness. Improvements in technology by the 1960s made the American west a far less exotic, faraway place for most Americans than it had been 20 years previously. Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, and Phoenix were no longer in the middle of nowhere, but were instead on the forefront of the American population boom, thanks to more automobiles and the increasing commonness of ciivilian jet arline travel. Thus, the public romanticization of the West faded away.
2. Vietnam, and the increasing public disquiet with state-sanctioned violence and territorial conquest and expansion. With the growing unpopularity with was was beginning to be perceived as American 'imperialism', no longer could we watch movies about the conquering of exotic lands and exotic peoples as mindless entertainment. The real world had intruded, and made these stories much more morally dark or ambiguous. Now, several excellent westerns like The Wild Bunch mined this moral ambiguity with great artistic success, but it could no longer be the stuff of mass entertainment. Even the westerns John Wayne made in the late 60s and early 70s, such as The Shootist had an elegaic quality that would have been a bit out of place a decade earlier (the films of John Ford excepted.)
10-23-06, 10:44 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
What killed the western? At least two things, which are entertwined:
1. The western is the story of westward expansion, and the conquering of wilderness. Improvements in technology by the 1960s made the American west a far less exotic, faraway place for most Americans than it had been 20 years previously. Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, and Phoenix were no longer in the middle of nowhere, but were instead on the forefront of the American population boom, thanks to more automobiles and the increasing commonness of ciivilian jet arline travel. Thus, the public romanticization of the West faded away.
2. Vietnam, and the increasing public disquiet with state-sanctioned violence and territorial conquest and expansion. With the growing unpopularity with was was beginning to be perceived as American 'imperialism', no longer could we watch movies about the conquering of exotic lands and exotic peoples as mindless entertainment. The real world had intruded, and made these stories much more morally dark or ambiguous. Now, several excellent westerns like The Wild Bunch mined this moral ambiguity with great artistic success, but it could no longer be the stuff of mass entertainment. Even the westerns John Wayne made in the late 60s and early 70s, such as The Shootist had an elegaic quality that would have been a bit out of place a decade earlier (the films of John Ford excepted.)
1. The western is the story of westward expansion, and the conquering of wilderness. Improvements in technology by the 1960s made the American west a far less exotic, faraway place for most Americans than it had been 20 years previously. Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, and Phoenix were no longer in the middle of nowhere, but were instead on the forefront of the American population boom, thanks to more automobiles and the increasing commonness of ciivilian jet arline travel. Thus, the public romanticization of the West faded away.
2. Vietnam, and the increasing public disquiet with state-sanctioned violence and territorial conquest and expansion. With the growing unpopularity with was was beginning to be perceived as American 'imperialism', no longer could we watch movies about the conquering of exotic lands and exotic peoples as mindless entertainment. The real world had intruded, and made these stories much more morally dark or ambiguous. Now, several excellent westerns like The Wild Bunch mined this moral ambiguity with great artistic success, but it could no longer be the stuff of mass entertainment. Even the westerns John Wayne made in the late 60s and early 70s, such as The Shootist had an elegaic quality that would have been a bit out of place a decade earlier (the films of John Ford excepted.)
You took the words out of my mouth and put it better than I could have. Nice!
10-24-06, 04:26 AM
#9
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
The genre played itself out, for the most part. They still made them well into the 70s in Italy, but even they started doing parodies, which is usually the death nell of any genre. If even Italy can get tired of a genre, then you KNOW it's played out. They made 100+ "DJANGO" films!
10-24-06, 08:45 AM
#11
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
I don't know that the western is dead per se. I think that most modern filmakers have no interest in taking the time necassary to craft a good western. You can't really have supercharged explosion filled wagon chases or laser shooting horses.
Plus, with the now youth driven movie market, they just aren't going to be profitable no matter how well made. I mean, Open Range is one of my favorites (the ending shootout is one of my favorite sequences out of any movie)and was a well made/acted film but it didn't set the boc office on fire.
Another poster mentioned that we don't have many actors with the presence to carry a film of this type, and I agree. I don't know of any of the current flavor of the month actors that wouldn't look completely out of place in real period western.
Oh well, I'll take the occasional high quality western over a large quantity of mediocre ones.
Plus, with the now youth driven movie market, they just aren't going to be profitable no matter how well made. I mean, Open Range is one of my favorites (the ending shootout is one of my favorite sequences out of any movie)and was a well made/acted film but it didn't set the boc office on fire.
Another poster mentioned that we don't have many actors with the presence to carry a film of this type, and I agree. I don't know of any of the current flavor of the month actors that wouldn't look completely out of place in real period western.
Oh well, I'll take the occasional high quality western over a large quantity of mediocre ones.
10-24-06, 09:32 AM
#13
Member
I agree that most types of Western films are dead for generally the same reasons listed by Wendersfan. Their themes are too un-PC and have been too de-mythologized.
However, the outlaw film will probably continue. There are too outlaw-related films coming out in the future: Brad Pitt's Jesse James project and a 3:10 to Yuma remake. Westerns will linger on as a genre, like film noir, that filmmakers like to work with even if they don't have much popular appeal.
However, the outlaw film will probably continue. There are too outlaw-related films coming out in the future: Brad Pitt's Jesse James project and a 3:10 to Yuma remake. Westerns will linger on as a genre, like film noir, that filmmakers like to work with even if they don't have much popular appeal.
10-24-06, 09:33 AM
#14
Don't you think television had a part in killing the cinematic western? With so many prime time shows: Gunsmoke, Rawhide, Rifleman, etc. the public didn't need to leave the house to enjoy the genre.
10-24-06, 09:43 AM
#15
Moderator
Originally Posted by Bobby Shalom
Don't you think television had a part in killing the cinematic western? With so many prime time shows: Gunsmoke, Rawhide, Rifleman, etc. the public didn't need to leave the house to enjoy the genre.
10-24-06, 09:43 AM
#16
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As sad as it is, people would rather see Jackass and Employee of the Month over a good western. The slow plodding, character driven drama with very little "eye candy" just doesn't have the allure it once did.
10-24-06, 10:10 AM
#17
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by Giles
one film that made a rather quiet release was Michael Winterbottom's 2000 film The Claim which I personally liked.
10-24-06, 10:36 AM
#18
Moderator
It truly is a fascinating subject that I've often pondered (Western's being my favorite genre). I agree that global politics played a part. Since I have nothing to add to that, I will limit my response to the film genre itself.
The American Western had its prime with the success of such directors as Ford, Sturges, Zinnemann, Stevens and Mann (and a few others) in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Many other westerns made during that time were from filmmakers emulating the success of those films.
In the late 60s came the 'Spaghetti Westerns' from Italy (yet largely filmed in Spain) which emulated the success of American Westerns (to a degree) and sprouted the worldwide popularity of the anti-hero in Clint Eastwood. The amount of quality films produced in this genre was rather thin since the market was flooded with them (100s in a handful of years) and their production costs were minimal. This genre ultimately played itself out since they did end up being a parody of themselves by the late 70s (the last well-received Spaghetti was probably Keoma in 1976). Italy had switched its gears to the Giallo genre in the mid-70s.
Due to the success of Spaghetti's, American Westerns experienced a slight resurgance in the late 60s/early 70s. The Wild Bunch is essentially an American made Spaghetti (style and violence are substance to the story).
Along with Italy's Giallo genre, the US was experiencing the rising of the crime drama in the early 70s as well. Mean Streets and The Godfather are just two examples of films that another generation of filmmakers began to emulate.
Let us fast-forward to 1994 and Pulp Fiction. A new success is born and another generation of filmmakers attempt to emulate its success.
So, how can the Western be reborn? For a Western to be a success (a retread of an existing forumula probably won't work) which will galvanize yet another generation of filmmakers to emulate its success.
The American Western had its prime with the success of such directors as Ford, Sturges, Zinnemann, Stevens and Mann (and a few others) in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Many other westerns made during that time were from filmmakers emulating the success of those films.
In the late 60s came the 'Spaghetti Westerns' from Italy (yet largely filmed in Spain) which emulated the success of American Westerns (to a degree) and sprouted the worldwide popularity of the anti-hero in Clint Eastwood. The amount of quality films produced in this genre was rather thin since the market was flooded with them (100s in a handful of years) and their production costs were minimal. This genre ultimately played itself out since they did end up being a parody of themselves by the late 70s (the last well-received Spaghetti was probably Keoma in 1976). Italy had switched its gears to the Giallo genre in the mid-70s.
Due to the success of Spaghetti's, American Westerns experienced a slight resurgance in the late 60s/early 70s. The Wild Bunch is essentially an American made Spaghetti (style and violence are substance to the story).
Along with Italy's Giallo genre, the US was experiencing the rising of the crime drama in the early 70s as well. Mean Streets and The Godfather are just two examples of films that another generation of filmmakers began to emulate.
Let us fast-forward to 1994 and Pulp Fiction. A new success is born and another generation of filmmakers attempt to emulate its success.
So, how can the Western be reborn? For a Western to be a success (a retread of an existing forumula probably won't work) which will galvanize yet another generation of filmmakers to emulate its success.
Last edited by Geofferson; 10-24-06 at 10:44 AM.
10-24-06, 11:41 AM
#19
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Most westerns were just stories with a western setting. The important films were about the west and dealt with themes and issues related to the time. Westerns about the west still get made but the west just doesn't work anymore for the action flick. The action western is still being made but the setting has changed to urban crime, sci-fi, etc.
Example: Hard To Kill with Steven Segal. Sheriff and his family is gunned down by outlaws. Sheriff is left for dead but is found and nursed back to health. Sheriff goes after the outlaws who killed his family, etc.
Predator : Posse is chasing gang of outlaws and comes across the dead bodies of the outlaws. "What coulda torn them up like that? Apaches?" "No Apache did this. I think it's a Grizzly". Members of posse get picked off one by one by the bear. The Sheriff, last man alive, lures bear into a trap, etc.
Two other things the western had going against it by the 70s, no fast cars or automatic weapons.
Example: Hard To Kill with Steven Segal. Sheriff and his family is gunned down by outlaws. Sheriff is left for dead but is found and nursed back to health. Sheriff goes after the outlaws who killed his family, etc.
Predator : Posse is chasing gang of outlaws and comes across the dead bodies of the outlaws. "What coulda torn them up like that? Apaches?" "No Apache did this. I think it's a Grizzly". Members of posse get picked off one by one by the bear. The Sheriff, last man alive, lures bear into a trap, etc.
Two other things the western had going against it by the 70s, no fast cars or automatic weapons.
Last edited by rw2516; 10-24-06 at 12:00 PM.
10-24-06, 12:10 PM
#20
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good post rw. it seems so obvious. same story different setting.
Western town >> Modern Big City
Or even in this day and age....Space.
Western town >> Modern Big City
Or even in this day and age....Space.
Last edited by Giantrobo; 10-24-06 at 12:18 PM.
10-24-06, 03:27 PM
#23
DVD Talk Legend
I know this is the movie forum, but no mention of Deadwood? That show has a decent following because they found a new angle to the Western theme.
But generally I'd agree that the setting is somewhat limited. I'd personally like to see some darker western horror movies. I'd love to see a Dawn of the Deadwood.
I'd say in this regard there has been no real attempt to 'sell' kids on the concept of cowboys in many years. You've got plenty of superheros, wizards, jedis, pirates, etc. out there but there hasn't been a wealth of cowboy movies that would be appropriate for the kids. Last one I can think of was the crappy Wild Wild West. Maybe all it would take is for someone like Pixar to do a new cowboy movie (maybe a Woody spinoff?), who knows?
But generally I'd agree that the setting is somewhat limited. I'd personally like to see some darker western horror movies. I'd love to see a Dawn of the Deadwood.
Originally Posted by The Bus
It seems to be more than movies: comic books and bedsheets no longer come in many cowboy themes. What's your take on it?
10-24-06, 10:20 PM
#24
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by rw2516
Hard To Kill with Steven Segal. Sheriff and his family is gunned down by outlaws. Sheriff is left for dead but is found and nursed back to health. Sheriff goes after the outlaws who killed his family, etc.
Predator : Posse is chasing gang of outlaws and comes across the dead bodies of the outlaws. "What coulda torn them up like that? Apaches?" "No Apache did this. I think it's a Grizzly". Members of posse get picked off one by one by the bear. The Sheriff, last man alive, lures bear into a trap, etc.
Two other things the western had going against it by the 70s, no fast cars or automatic weapons.
Predator : Posse is chasing gang of outlaws and comes across the dead bodies of the outlaws. "What coulda torn them up like that? Apaches?" "No Apache did this. I think it's a Grizzly". Members of posse get picked off one by one by the bear. The Sheriff, last man alive, lures bear into a trap, etc.
Two other things the western had going against it by the 70s, no fast cars or automatic weapons.
10-24-06, 11:06 PM
#25
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Some people say Sam Peckinpah and Sergio Leone killed the western by poking holes in the genre's sacred cows (good guys, bad guys, the west as a new frontier), but I think it was the audience that changed. The western no longer works as a morality play to a broad spectrum of people, because a kind of innocence has been lost over time. The same can be said for the American musical. But I think the genre still works when it's done in a modern context - as mentioned already, The Claim, Open Range,The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada (or, my personal favorite, Ravenous) are perfect examples, instead of shameless dress ups and souless remakes like "Silverado" or "Young Guns".
Last edited by mike7162; 10-25-06 at 03:12 AM.