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View Full Version : The Official PS3 Thread Part II.


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eatntae
11-02-06, 04:53 PM
I saw a PS3 commercial on ESPN late last night/early this morning. It had some plastic toy baby in a white room and the PS3 across from it. The baby started crying, then the tears went back in its eyes, and the PS3 started floating. Then some motto displayed on the screen (don't remember what it said) and finally "1117"

Maybe its just me, but I didn't understand the whole baby thing.

Save Ferris
11-02-06, 04:55 PM
It could have something to do with the spiderman font

Fandango
11-02-06, 04:59 PM
There's a better one with a Rubiks cube.

Liver&Onions
11-02-06, 05:21 PM
Baby - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkNPcUMffU

Draven
11-02-06, 05:37 PM
You'll cry when you see the final price at the register?
The PS3 will bring your plastic babies to life?
The PS3 can watch your kids?

I got nothing.

Outlaw
11-02-06, 11:11 PM
Baby - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkNPcUMffU

AH f**K! that was interesting. However there's one thing that scares me (here's a hint: First area in Silent Hill). Yes its creepy little children, I don't know why but they scare the hell out of me, this commercial gave me chills.

AllHallowsEve
11-02-06, 11:13 PM
That commercial is scarier than any of the theatrical horror films out right now.

Supermallet
11-03-06, 12:35 AM
Anyone else think that commercial is meant to be a reference to the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey?

Save Ferris
11-03-06, 06:50 AM
I think its Sony saying all their fans are phoney crybabies who dont deserve a PS3

Shame on you Sony.

Flay
11-03-06, 06:58 AM
Apparently, the specs of all that expensive hardware in the PS3 are just made up.

The truth is that the PS3 is powered by the demonic souls of possessed plastic babies.

Mopower
11-03-06, 08:34 AM
I was hoping they would have a commercial with a bunch of people waiting in line at a store to get a PS3 and then they open the store up and there is a PS3 display with the black PS3 monilith sitting on a stand with boxed PS3's around it. Then the people start jumping around like monkeys like in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Save Ferris
11-03-06, 08:36 AM
I was hoping they would have a commercial with a bunch of people waiting in line at a store to get a PS3 and then they open the store up and there is a PS3 display with the black PS3 monilith sitting on a stand with boxed PS3's around it. Then the people start jumping around like monkeys like in 2001: A Space Odyssey.


LMAO

then fade to black when the bludgeoning starts

Michael Corvin
11-03-06, 09:13 AM
The truth is that the PS3 is powered by the demonic souls of possessed plastic babies.

Yeah, but at least it is 1080p.

UncleGramps
11-03-06, 12:55 PM
As promised, here are my impressions on the PS3 games I got to play last night at a Sony-sponsored preview event. But first, some disclaimers: I haven't been impressed with any PS3 games previewed on gaming websites, I don't plan to buy a PS3 until some major price drops, and I'm a Nintendo fanboy. Also, the environment last night was not really conducive to forming solid opinions on the games. There generally weren't any staff at the game kiosks to walk you through things or explain the controls. Non-launch games seemed to be early builds (i.e., buggy), and with lines at every kiosk, there was some pressure not to hog the games. With that said, here are the games I had a chance to try out:

Resistance: Fall of Man: I know that this one is getting a lot of hype, but I was not at all impressed. The graphics are great (of course), but the game had very little personality. It just seemed like a generic sci-fi FPS to me. I'm sure it would be more fun if you could start at the beginning of the game and figure things out naturally instead of just jumping into a random part of the demo with very little understanding of how to play. I'm also betting that the online multiplayer will be better than the single player mode, but this one just didn't excite or interest me at all, and I'm not understanding where all the hype is coming from.

Motorstorm: This one was more up my alley than Resistance. I got to play on some sort of desert/canyon level, and the visuals were really stunning. You could choose from a variety of vehicles ranging from tiny ATVs to big trucks, and they all handled the way you would expect them to. The one annoying thing was that if your vehicle was totaled, the game would go into a slo-mo replay of the crash, and no one could figure out how to resume the race. You had to just pause and restart the race from the beginning. Of course, this is just an early build, but it made it a little less fun to play. Still, the level of detail in this game is great, the physics are solid, and I think it has a lot of potential.

Genji: I had very little time to play this one, and I picked up where the guy before me left off. I didn't know where I was supposed to go, and I only found one or two enemies to attack, so I can't talk too much about this one. At any rate, it doesn't seem like the kind of game I would really get into.

Tony Hawk Project 8: I've already played the 360 demo, so I had a decent idea of how to play. At first I played without the tilt controls and it was pretty much exactly like the 360 version in all respects. I asked the rep who was manning the kiosk about tilt controls, and he took the controller for a minute to activate the tilt functionality and demonstrate it. He seemed to have a good grasp on this, but when I tried using the tilt controls during Nail the Trick mode, I had a lot of trouble. I could activate the board spin easily, but there seemed to be a delay between centering the controller and seeing the result on the screen. I think I might not have been returning the controller to the proper neutral position, though. I suppose that the tilt controls might be fun once you get past the learning curve, but I think I'd probably just end up sticking with the analog stick controls.

Lair: Saving the best for last! This was the one game I played last night that really impressed me. The tilt controls in this one are simple and intuitive. The controller was very responsive, and although some have complained that it's too light, it felt pretty good to me. The visuals in Lair were impressive, although there was one point where some of the smaller characters switched over to lower detail models while they were still close to the camera. It also glitched up once when the guy playing before me steered the dragon through the roof of the castle and got stuck in there. But the controls worked well, the gameplay was intuitive and had a fair bit of variety, and the presentation was very nice. This early version of the game shows a lot of promise, as long as they can flesh everything out and keep it fun over long sessions of play.

So, to wrap it up: Lair was definitely my favorite game. Motorstorm was a close second. Tony Hawk was good but not very different from the 360 version, and Genji and Resistance really didn't do anything for me. I still don't think there's enough at launch to justify a $500 or $600 investment, but I'm sure some people will enjoy Genji and Resistance, and for them it could be worthwhile. As for me, I'll give it a year or two to build up a solid library and drop in price and pick one up then.

PixyJunket
11-03-06, 01:29 PM
Thanks for the impressions. :)

It seems odd that they'd have such buggy builds of software out two weeks before launch (well, one week considering it comes out in Japan on the 11th). Oh well, hopefully they just didn't have the final builds printed for the show. I'm with you in giving it a couple of years to build a library and drop in price some (I did the same thing with the PS2).

UncleGramps
11-03-06, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the impressions. :)

It seems odd that they'd have such buggy builds of software out two weeks before launch (well, one week considering it comes out in Japan on the 11th). Oh well, hopefully they just didn't have the final builds printed for the show. I'm with you in giving it a couple of years to build a library and drop in price some (I did the same thing with the PS2).
To clarify, Motorstorm and Lair (the buggiest games I played) are not launch or launch window titles IIRC. Resistance, Genji, and THP8 (all of which are launch games) were solid. I did not see any bugs or glitches in those three games.

maingon
11-03-06, 02:42 PM
its amazing its coming out in a few days, doesnt seem like theres much hype at all.

Save Ferris
11-03-06, 02:48 PM
the PS3 hype has been moved to the HD forum ive been told. I hope its not like this in other gaming forums.

Ocelot
11-04-06, 12:49 AM
the PS3 hype has been moved to the HD forum ive been told. I hope its not like this in other gaming forums.


So, i guess people are buying PS3s for BR movies? If that's the primary reason, well, less units to go around.

I have made my decision, if i found one in the store, i buy it, if not, hell with it. No camping out or eBaying for me, no freaking way... March 2007 sounds fine to me , hell, even June 2007 sounds good.

Personally, i think it's an expensive console and i don't understand how some people afford this thing (by that i mean buying it w/o evening blinking an eye)...

I believe there's an earlier question about connecting the PS3 to HDTVs that don't have HDMI connections (i.e. the older models with HD components). This is an important question, b/c if the PS3 cannot be used on the 1st genereation of DLP TVs, then you'll need to buy a new HDTV to play the BR movies (another 1500+ bucks ).

Ocelot
11-04-06, 12:51 AM
Oh, by "cannot be used" i meant cannot fully take advantage of the the HD feature, sorry about the confusion...

Supermallet
11-04-06, 01:53 AM
1080p can be passed over component for video games. For Blu-ray discs, it can only do 1080i.

Fandango
11-04-06, 05:06 AM
If your TV is a first generation DLP it probably can't do 1080p anyway so it doesn't really matter.

gmal2003
11-06-06, 04:55 AM
So my current plan is to wait in line on the 16th at about 8am at a store. Im narrowing down my choices and looking for advice to make my chances of getting a PS3 great.

Here is the list of stores Im considering:
Target (single store and one inside of a Mall. I know two people that work at different Targets and will get info from them soon. I heard they are not letting people line up until 3 or so hours before open. I might go to different stores and if there lines are long go to Target 8 to12 hours before open).

Circuit City - They should be getting a decent amount 8am on the 16th might land me one.

Best Buy - There is one opening at midnight but Im not sure about that one. Ill probably try the one in Dearborn as its near many other stores (Target, CC, Gamestop).

What would you all recommend? Im thinking around 8am on the 16th will land me one. A friend of mine will be joining me around 6pm after work for his own chance at the PS3.

AllHallowsEve
11-06-06, 05:16 AM
So my current plan is to wait in line on the 16th at about 8am at a store. Im narrowing down my choices and looking for advice to make my chances of getting a PS3 great.

Here is the list of stores Im considering:
Target (single store and one inside of a Mall. I know two people that work at different Targets and will get info from them soon. I heard they are not letting people line up until 3 or so hours before open. I might go to different stores and if there lines are long go to Target 8 to12 hours before open).

Circuit City - They should be getting a decent amount 8am on the 16th might land me one.

Best Buy - There is one opening at midnight but Im not sure about that one. Ill probably try the one in Dearborn as its near many other stores (Target, CC, Gamestop).

What would you all recommend? Im thinking around 8am on the 16th will land me one. A friend of mine will be joining me around 6pm after work for his own chance at the PS3.

I was pondering doing this. How do you go to the bathroom? Do you bring your own jar? That's a long, long time.

Good luc- on your friend joining you 10 hours later in line. Those people won't let him just slip into a top spot.

PerryD
11-06-06, 09:40 AM
What would you all recommend?

Last year, the Costco near me got over 100 Xbox 360s for sale, and anyone that showed up even after the store opened that morning got a unit. I showed up there after wasting time at another store, about 30 minutes after opening and just missed getting one.

I have to say, it was quite surreal seeing so many people carrying the Xbox 360 bundles in the checkout lines.

gmal2003
11-06-06, 09:47 AM
Exactly, Im hoping he can get the day off. Perry, I was also thinking about Costco. Id rather not buy a bundle but tat might be another option as well.

Kocheese99
11-06-06, 12:10 PM
I've already got the 16th and 17th off, now i'm just figuring out where to camp out. I went to one wal-mart already and they said they will most likely be doing a lottery, ugh. The Target closest to me said it would be first come first served and that they are working out a way so that people can camp out and not be kicked out by the police. I'm figuring that i'll check out all the stores next monday to find out how many systems they're getting and how they will do the launch. I just don't want to get sucked into a lottery, then it's just a waste of time.

gmal2003
11-06-06, 08:46 PM
I think Im going to go with Target. I called one inside a nearby mall earlier today and they said the are gonna give out tickets 3 or so hours before they open according to the line they have. They will know how many systems they are getting a few days before launch. This is consistent with what I read other people found out by calling their nearest Targets. I think early Thursday morning will land me one. Now I gotta get my friend to take the day off or he might be out of luck.

Ocelot
11-07-06, 11:39 AM
I just realized my 56" DLP is 480i/p (1280x720 resolution)... So, to take full advantage of PS3's high resolution, 1080p for game and 1080i for BR, you really need a new TV. Man, that's too much for me, i guess i'll sit this one out. Maybe the Wii is a better choice. I might just get another PS2, the library of PS2 games is enormous (my first PS2 is broken and i have been playing GC ever since).

RichC2
11-07-06, 11:40 AM
1280x720 resolution? So doesn't your TV support 720p (which is HD, and, imo, superior to 1080i)? I didn't think they made DLPs with EDTV only (480i/p.).

While you wouldn't get the most out of your PS3, I wouldn't write it off just for this reason. HD Gaming in 720p is incredible, and makes it very difficult to go back to SD. Though the Wii would be a good choice as well.

Of course, 1080p on a 56" would not only be expensive as hell, but absolutely jaw dropping I'm sure. But anyway, don't let being unable to max out the system be the deterrant, let it be one of the numerous other issues people seem to be having with it (me included.)

Save Ferris
11-07-06, 11:56 AM
Have they started selling the PS3 games yet? I remember when the 360 came out the games were on sale in some places almost a month before launch. Is anyone more than a little concerned about availability?

kgrogers1979
11-07-06, 11:58 AM
I just realized my 56" DLP is 480i/p (1280x720 resolution)...

:hscratch:

Something is a little messed up there.

1280x720 is 720p
480i/p is either 854x480 (for 16:9 TVs) or 640x480 (for 4:3 TVs)

Ocelot
11-07-06, 12:13 PM
1280x720 resolution? So doesn't your TV support 720p (which is HD, and, imo, superior to 1080i)? I didn't think they made DLPs with EDTV only (480i/p.).


That spec was from Amazon... I have to dig up my DLP's manual to confirm. Yeah, it was a little fishy to me too. It's two years old now and it's a little embrassing, i don't remember the spec :blush:

Ocelot
11-07-06, 12:48 PM
i just heard that there will be more PS3s on Jan 2007? Is this true? Two months wait is not really that much, considering i got tons of game to play at the moment.

RichC2
11-07-06, 12:54 PM
Sony is claiming they'll ship 600,000 additional units before the end of the year. 400,000 on launch, 600,000 from launch - Dec 31st.

I don't buy it, but we'll see. So yes, there will be more in Jan 2007, but there will be more before that as well.

Draven
11-07-06, 02:04 PM
Sony is claiming they'll ship 600,000 additional units before the end of the year. 400,000 on launch, 600,000 from launch - Dec 31st.

I don't buy it, but we'll see. So yes, there will be more in Jan 2007, but there will be more before that as well.

There is no way in hell that will happen. If they get another 400,000 out before the end of the year I'll be amazed.

Kicker_of_Elves
11-07-06, 02:14 PM
Is anyone more than a little concerned about availability?


Judging from the lack of replies to your question, i'd have to say nope! :nopanic:

Brent L
11-07-06, 10:14 PM
Genji: Days of the Blade - IGN Review (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/744/744611p1.html)

Final Score = 6.0/10

kgrogers1979
11-07-06, 11:24 PM
Genji: Days of the Blade - IGN Review (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/744/744611p1.html)

Final Score = 6.0/10

Uh, why is the review score for a game a spoiler? :hscratch:

Bluelitespecial
11-07-06, 11:39 PM
Well I have news from work about the PS3 availablity at my store, it looks like I will only be receiving two for the release date. I am a little scared about if we will have any people waiting on the 17th to buy one. The only way I am going to be able to do it is to do a raffle to buy them. It should be an interesting day that day.

Brent L
11-07-06, 11:46 PM
Uh, why is the review score for a game a spoiler? :hscratch:

Just in case anyone wants to see the score after they read the entire review? I don't know. :D

gmal2003
11-08-06, 07:24 AM
Well I have news from work about the PS3 availablity at my store, it looks like I will only be receiving two for the release date. I am a little scared about if we will have any people waiting on the 17th to buy one. The only way I am going to be able to do it is to do a raffle to buy them. It should be an interesting day that day.
Im guessing from your username you work at K-Mart?

mrpayroll
11-08-06, 12:01 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20919

PS3 titles to use single online sign-in

Rob Fahey 11:12 08/11/2006
One sign-in for every game, but online features may still differ

Every game on the PlayStation 3 will use the same universal sign-in and the same online ID, Sony has confirmed - even titles which do not use the central buddy list and messaging systems offered by the console.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz this morning, the UK producer on launch title Resistance, Dan Brooke, said that he "wishes to be clear that Resistance uses the PlayStation online ID to sign into the game. There is no separate login for Resistance and the online ID you create will be the same you use for all titles."

The clarification comes after Ted Price, head of Resistance developer Insomniac Games, revealed last week that despite having extensive online functionality, the game will not be using the central buddy list offered by the PS3; instead, players will build an in-game buddy list unique to the game.

Resistance is also set to offer advanced community features such as clan support, party support, match-making and ranking. At present the PlayStation 3 operating system does not offer centralised support for these features.

However, contrary to some reports which have appeared in recent weeks, gamers will not be expected to sign up new accounts for each game they play, as the PS3 will handle a single sign-in ID for this purpose.

This system is similar to how online games worked on the PlayStation 2, where users had a single Central Station ID which identified them in every game on the system - although unlike the PS2, the PS3's network adapter is built in and configures itself automatically in most network environments, and the system boasts persistent internal storage for network and sign-in details, as well as for downloaded content.

However, the PS3's service still falls significantly short of Microsoft's highly regarded Xbox Live system, whose voice chat, messaging, buddy lists and so on are not only a core part of the service, but are utilised by all online titles on the console.


Chris

Save Ferris
11-08-06, 12:03 PM
Geez did they just throw this thing together over the weekend?? :(

UncleGramps
11-08-06, 12:15 PM
Sounds like you get what you pay for with this free online service. I'll take XBox Live's small fee over PS3's "free and janky" approach any day.

Flay
11-08-06, 12:18 PM
:rolleyes: Sony, Sony, Sony... What's the point of your online sign-in name if you don't make your game developers use your messenging / buddy list system?

So I guess that means I can be playing Resistance and a buddy on my Sony friend's list can be playing Resistance, but I won't any idea unless I add him to another friend's list.

I wonder if that means you can't check the Sony buddy list or get any messages while you are playing a game like Resistance.

UncleGramps
11-08-06, 12:28 PM
:rolleyes: Sony, Sony, Sony... What's the point of your online sign-in name if you don't make your game developers use your messenging / buddy list system?

So I guess that means I can be playing Resistance and a buddy on my Sony friend's list can be playing Resistance, but I won't any idea unless I add him to another friend's list.

I wonder if that means you can't check the Sony buddy list or get any messages while you are playing a game like Resistance.
It's really mind-boggling. XBox Live is a perfect example of how to run an online gaming network. Why Sony didn't just copy Live's approach is beyond me. Even if they had to charge a little for it, they could at least undercut MS's fees and still come out looking good. Sounds like PS3's online support will be incrementally better than PS2's, but that's just not enough to compete with Live.

Michael Corvin
11-08-06, 01:01 PM
Last week an EA exec went on record saying Sony won't be able to deliver its launch numbers. Now today we have more fuel for the fire. What it boils down to:

A Best Buy "insider" claims their launch numbers have been cut in half.

Playstation Shipment Reduction, True? (http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=36041)

Like I said, fuel for the fire, grain of salt, pick your favorite saying, but it is all just an unconfirmed rumor at this point. If true it looks like even those with pre-orders (me) already in the bag still may get the shaft.

Now all that being said and done. :wtf: Sony. This has got to be the biggest clusterfuck launch in the history of gaming. They truely have monkeys running the show over there don't they? Sheesh.

AllHallowsEve
11-08-06, 02:51 PM
Last week an EA exec went on record saying Sony won't be able to deliver its launch numbers. Now today we have more fuel for the fire. What it boils down to:

A Best Buy "insider" claims their launch numbers have been cut in half.

Playstation Shipment Reduction, True? (http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=36041)

Like I said, fuel for the fire, grain of salt, pick your favorite saying, but it is all just an unconfirmed rumor at this point. If true it looks like even those with pre-orders (me) already in the bag still may get the shaft.

Now all that being said and done. :wtf: Sony. This has got to be the biggest clusterfuck launch in the history of gaming. They truely have monkeys running the show over there don't they? Sheesh.

This probably will rank in as number 1. This truly is ridiculous. Sony has been pulling legs for a year and a half already with this launch. They should have just admitted that they are not ready for this launch and postponed the system till around fall 07'. Taking pre-orders for an unready system is asinine to begin with. Seriously, put this in perspective. Spending around $650 (with tax and without anything included) to be irritated and annoyed. It's crazy. Nintendo is smiling due to this mess.

mrpayroll
11-08-06, 03:05 PM
Nintendo is smiling due to this mess.

I'm sure Microsoft is getting a good chuckle out of it also! ;)

Chris

msdmoney
11-08-06, 03:07 PM
Sony just bit off more than they could chew with the cell and BlueRay.

mrpayroll
11-08-06, 03:32 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061108/tc_nm/sony_ps3_dc_1

Sony firm on U.S. pricing for PlayStation 3

By Michael Kahn
1 hour, 20 minutes ago


SAN JOSE, California (Reuters) - Sony Corp. (6758.T) has no plans to cut the price of its upcoming PlayStation 3 video game console in the United States, despite a recent cut announced for Japan, the chief of the company's U.S. electronic entertainment division said on Wednesday.

Kaz Hirai, president and chief executive of Sony ComputerEntertainment America, told Reuters the company would stick with its planned price tags of $499 and $599 when the new PlayStation 3 consoles hit retailers' shelves in the United States on November 17.

"We are very comfortable with the pricing we have announced and have gotten tremendous support from retailers for that price point," Hirai said on the sidelines of the Dow Jones VentureWire Consumer Technology Conference. "So it is full steam ahead with the pricing of $499 and $599."

Sony will introduce the PS3 in Japan on November 11 with the North American launch to follow six days later. The two regions are the two biggest markets for consoles in the $30 billion video game market.

Hirai also said the company was sticking with its forecast of supplying two million units of the PS3 by December and another four million by March as planned.

"That is the goal we are working toward to deliver and hopefully exceed those numbers," he said.

But after several delays, the PS3 will have to play catch up to rival Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) Xbox 360, which the company introduced last year.

Hirai, however, said he was confident the PS3 would make up lost ground because of features including a Blu-ray high-definition DVD player.

He also said the true test for the PS3, Xbox 360 and Nintendo's (7974.OS) forthcoming Wii would be next year when the consoles are all available at retailers and consumers have a true choice.

The Wii is Nintendo's planned next-generation video game console, which is highly anticipated because of a remote control with motion sensors that can be swung like a sword or used imaginatively in other games.

"If you look back at the history of product launches we were never first," Hirai said at the conference. "The real test comes when any other products are available in abundance so the consumer can walk into any retailer and pick up whatever console they want."

Consumers have a growing number of digital and online entertainment options, ranging from Apple Computer Inc.'s(Nasdaq:AAPL - news) iTunes music store to YouTube Internet video site.

Yet Hirai said he was not so worried digital devices and online entertainment options would necessarily divert consumers from video game consoles such as PS3.

"There have always been other entertainment options," he said. "Certainly YouTube and iPods are other entertainment options we are now competing with."


Boy, I'm just full of bad news today!

But it doesn't make sense to lower the price of something that is going to be in high demand. I've always wondered why they lowered the price in Japan where supply will not exceed demand for many months after launch! :confused:

Chris

ChrisHicks
11-08-06, 03:48 PM
I actually wish they would have charged more for the PS3.

Absolute Zero
11-08-06, 06:07 PM
I actually wish they would have charged more for the PS3.

I'm interested to know why?

Bluelitespecial
11-08-06, 06:52 PM
Im guessing from your username you work at K-Mart?

Yeah, I am the electronics manager at my store right now.

Brent L
11-08-06, 07:04 PM
http://static.flickr.com/114/291959959_86cd283fd6.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/122/291959962_aa3aa7108d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/103/291961696_20081cbb73.jpg

:lol:

Daryl
11-08-06, 07:18 PM
They had the PS3 display set up at my local Best Buy tonight. I played a little NBA 07 - the tv sets were capable of 720p, so I didn't get a chance to check it out in 1080p. I watched a few of the demos as well, which were admittedly quite impressive (although I suck at being able to tell what's in-game graphics and what's not). The controllers felt similar to the PS2 controllers, a minus for me since I have large hands, but if you loved the dualshock, I see no reason why you wouldn't love these as well. They have the controllers inside these plastic holders to prevent theft, which made it almost impossible for my fat fingers to hit the start button. This meant I couldn't skip past the intro screens for each demo and video like you normally would (I swear NBA 07 has over 10 intro screens before you can actually get to the start menu), so I didn't spend a lot of time messing with it - it was taking too long and I felt guilty that my 5 year old son was running around the aisles while his 33 year old father was playing a videogame :D

No one walking by really stopped and looked or really even noticed it - I wish I could say that was a good sign of local disinterest for next Friday, but I know that's wishful thinking on my part!!

Flay
11-08-06, 07:59 PM
For anyone wondering, those pics are the Best Buy in West LA. People are camping at the Burbank, CA one already too. :lol:

What's with the Penguin? Linux?

ChrisHicks
11-08-06, 08:46 PM
I'm interested to know why?

well, would the scalpers have run out and sucked up as many as they could if it sold for 1500.00?

sure, some still would but I'd have to guess that it be nowhere near as many as there are now though.

taffer
11-08-06, 08:54 PM
well, would the scalpers have run out and sucked up as many as they could if it sold for 1500.00?

sure, some still would but I'd have to guess that it be nowhere near as many as there are now though.

If the PS3 retailed for $1500, they would have just been sold on ebay for $3000. :)

Anyway, if Sony would have set such a high retail price like that, it would have caused a lot of trouble. Sure all the hardcore gamers would still gobble up all the launch systems, but what happens next spring? Nobody else will buy it for $1500, so Sony would be forced to lower the price to a more normal $400-$600. A price cut that huge and that quickly after launch would send all kinds of bad signals to the public. The public would think that the PS3s are inferior or faulty or not selling or something to cause such a price cut. This would hurt Sony even further.

devynal
11-08-06, 08:59 PM
Yeah, I am the electronics manager at my store right now.

I am surprised most Kmarts are getting any at all. Last year I don't think any Kmart in Minnesota got a 360. I have a friend that's the electronics manager at my local Kmart - I told her to keep me informed. :)

Brent L
11-08-06, 09:06 PM
Genji: Days of the Blade - GameSpot Review (http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/adventure/genji/review.html?page=1&sid=6161332&part=rss&tag=gs_reviews&subj=6161332)

Final Score = 6.4/10

eatntae
11-08-06, 09:11 PM
They had the PS3 display set up at my local Best Buy tonight. I played a little NBA 07 - the tv sets were capable of 720p, so I didn't get a chance to check it out in 1080p. I watched a few of the demos as well, which were admittedly quite impressive (although I suck at being able to tell what's in-game graphics and what's not). The controllers felt similar to the PS2 controllers, a minus for me since I have large hands, but if you loved the dualshock, I see no reason why you wouldn't love these as well. They have the controllers inside these plastic holders to prevent theft, which made it almost impossible for my fat fingers to hit the start button. This meant I couldn't skip past the intro screens for each demo and video like you normally would (I swear NBA 07 has over 10 intro screens before you can actually get to the start menu), so I didn't spend a lot of time messing with it - it was taking too long and I felt guilty that my 5 year old son was running around the aisles while his 33 year old father was playing a videogame :D

No one walking by really stopped and looked or really even noticed it - I wish I could say that was a good sign of local disinterest for next Friday, but I know that's wishful thinking on my part!!
I saw the PS3 kiosk at my Best Buy as well, and two kids were playing the NBA game. I had a chance to pick up the controller when they were done, but I couldn't figure out how to get to the system menu. I tried hitting the center button on the controller, but it didn't appear to do anything. As much as I wanted to see the other demos/videos, I wound up just letting 2 kids behind me play since they were so excited about it.

kgrogers1979
11-08-06, 09:22 PM
:wtf: People are camping for a PS3 already??? I haven't been following too closely, but I thought Nov 17th was the launch day? These people are going to camp out in front of Best Buy for more than a week??? Good lord and I thought I had no life.

If these people are really going to camp for a week, where is all their food and stuff? They seem to have way too few supplies to last them a week. And Best Buy is okay with them sitting in front of the store like a bunch of worthless bums for a whole week?

mrpayroll
11-08-06, 09:30 PM
http://static.flickr.com/114/291959959_86cd283fd6.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/122/291959962_aa3aa7108d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/103/291961696_20081cbb73.jpg

:lol:


That looks like the store in Burbank, CA :eek:

Chris

mrpayroll
11-08-06, 09:31 PM
For anyone wondering, those pics are the Best Buy in West LA. People are camping at the Burbank, CA one already too. :lol:

What's with the Penguin? Linux?

Are you sure, those look like the Empire Center in Burbank.

Chris

RichC2
11-08-06, 09:42 PM
Gamespot Chimed in with their first reviews:

Genji: Days of the Blade - 6.4 out of 10.0

Pros: Great graphics and sound show off some of what the PlayStation 3 can do; four considerably different playable characters plus multiple unique weapons; some exciting boss battles and other impressive set pieces.

Cons: Level design is often dull, and sometimes frustrating and confusing; repetitive hack-and-slash combat rarely demands much skill or finesse; some noticeable cut corners throughout the story make the game feel rushed.

^^ The review mentions slowdown on some more screen filled moments, slowdown was the one thing I was hoping the PS3 would (largely) do away with :( I'd rather have slightly watered down graphics and pure smoothness than the other way around.


Tony Hawk Project 8 - 7.3 out of 10.0

Pros: Redesigned career mode gives you multiple levels of challenge; nail the trick mode is a cool-looking addition that has a positive impact on the gameplay.

Cons: Frame rate is frequently unstable; no online support; skater creation options aren't as in-depth as they have been in previous installments.


Comparison to X360 Version (7.9 out of 10.0) :

Unfortunately, some technical glitches and unstable frame rates plague both the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 version of the game.

Those frame-rate problems hit the PlayStation 3 version of the game significantly harder than the Xbox 360. Other than the choppy frame rate and slightly sharper graphics on the PlayStation 3, some of which is only noticeable when using an HDMI cable on a high-end HDTV, the games look roughly the same. But there are other, more significant differences between the two versions. The Xbox 360 version has online support for up to eight players, including a new game mode called walls, which gives your skater a tall trail behind him that behaves sort of like the light cycles in Tron--if you hit another player's wall, you're out. The Xbox 360 version also uses its online support to present a lot of different online leaderboards. Much like Amped 3, many of the different goals in the game have their own individual leaderboard, which adds some competition to the single-player game and gives you a reason to keep on playing the same goals again and again. Without this, the PS3 version feels sort of flat by comparison.

The PlayStation 3 version of the game distinguishes itself by offering complete support for the Sixaxis controller's motion-sensing abilities. You can set it to just control functions like balancing, if you like, or you can move and execute tricks with it, as well. It works, but it lacks the precision offered by the D pad, so it's a neat experiment that's pretty good at showing off what the Sixaxis is capable of, but you probably wouldn't want to play through the game this way. The PlayStation 3 version also installs a 264MB cache file onto the system's hard drive when you first put the game in your system. Presumably, this is done to help speed up loading, but the load times don't seem much better than the Xbox 360 version of the game. If you're in a position where you have to choose between the two versions of the game, the Xbox 360 version offers a more complete package. The Tony Hawk series was a pioneer when it came to being online on the PlayStation 2, and its omission on the PS3 is completely crazy and thoroughly disappointing.


Seems to me they were rushed, that's a shame.

PalmerJoss
11-08-06, 10:13 PM
I got to play NBA 07 tonight on the PS3 demo unit at my local Target. The loading times weren't anywhere bad as I thought they were - maybe 20 seconds longer than it would take a sports game to load on the 360, which isn't bad at all. The only thing is that there are quite a few screens to get past before you even get to the main menu and you cannot press X or Start to advance past them. Hopefully that will change in the future, though. The graphics looked amazing, but not a huge graphical leap over the 360 IMO. The player models were superb withall the player faces looking very accurate, and the framerate was silky smooth. The sound was also quite wonderful - the commentary, the crowd, and the ambient noise were all very well done.

The SIXAXIS controller felt just like the Dual Shock controller except for the new trigger things on the back of the controller. It seems Sony took a page from Microsoft in that department, but that's not a bad thing. I still prefer the 360 controller over this one, but Sony definitely has made strides to improve. I just know I'm still going to miss the rumble feature, though.

ChrisHicks
11-08-06, 10:43 PM
just crazy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultimate-Playstation-3-Bundle-HD-LCD-TV-PLUS-5-GAMES_W0QQitemZ140046797889QQihZ004QQcategoryZ62054QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140046797889

Fandango
11-08-06, 11:23 PM
Here is a link with a picture of the HD bay cover off.

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Screens/ScreenShots.htm?CS_pid={7FE07A33-680C-41DE-89B0-C57BA701AAEB}

Outlaw
11-08-06, 11:30 PM
no ****ing way people are camping out right now. Probably people just pretending, and leaving as soon as they take their picture. A better strategy would be to fly to the middle of nowhere and get one if you're going to spend that much time (in most cases time = money, at least for me).

AllHallowsEve
11-08-06, 11:41 PM
just crazy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultimate-Playstation-3-Bundle-HD-LCD-TV-PLUS-5-GAMES_W0QQitemZ140046797889QQihZ004QQcategoryZ62054QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140046797889

How did that guy get 14 pre-orders? I have been on the ball for a year searching and still never got one.

AllHallowsEve
11-08-06, 11:47 PM
I'm sure Microsoft is getting a good chuckle out of it also! ;)

Chris

Your right. I just brought up Nintendo due to how close the launches are together.

Supermallet
11-09-06, 01:22 AM
We already got copies of Tony Hawk for PS3 at work today. They're in Blu-ray cases, but the cases are completely clear. Not very eye-catching, but it does differentiate the cases from the movies.

jiggawhat
11-09-06, 01:35 AM
http://static.flickr.com/114/291959959_86cd283fd6.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/122/291959962_aa3aa7108d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/103/291961696_20081cbb73.jpg

:lol:

I just saw these idiots tonight. I just looked at them and shook my head.

jiggawhat
11-09-06, 01:36 AM
For anyone wondering, those pics are the Best Buy in West LA. People are camping at the Burbank, CA one already too. :lol:

What's with the Penguin? Linux?

The pics above are from Burbank not West LA but sad nonetheless.

DthRdrX
11-09-06, 01:53 AM
That one guy looks like Vic Mackey's stunt double.

dcprules
11-09-06, 02:30 AM
Wouldn't camping out over a week in advance be considered loitering or something? I doubt Best Buy would want people hanging out at there store for the next week. It wouldn't surprise me if the police step in.

Michael Corvin
11-09-06, 05:59 AM
Yeah. I bet they are cleared out until thursday. And that guy that bought 14 PS3's... yeah... he is a fucking dick.

Flay
11-09-06, 07:40 AM
FYI, 2 launch window games possible pushed to 2007: F.E.A.R. & Oblivion

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6161356.html?tag=latestnews;title;0

GameStop and EB Games are now listing Bethesda's RPG and Vivendi's FPS as not coming until early next year.

As it held its Gamers' Day event in San Francisco, Sony announced the launch lineup for the PlayStation 3. The list had 21 games, including the PS3 edition of Bethesda Softworks' critically lauded role-playing game Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and Vivendi's acclaimed first-person shooter F.E.A.R. Sony said all the games on the list would be "available through the holidays," which traditionally means the end of the year.

However, now it appears that said timeframe may extend to some 2007 holidays. The product pages at both EBgames.com and Gamestop.com now list Oblivion as shipping January 1, New Year's Day, and F.E.A.R. shipping on February 6, when Jamaicans celebrate Bob Marley Day.

Could the new dates be errors in EBgames.com and Gamestop.com's shared database? Given the two sites' history of revealing delays before publishers do, that seems unlikely. However, the dual PS3 delays are still not official. Vivendi reps declined to comment on the new F.E.A.R. ship date, and Bethesda reps were unavailable as of press time.

Save Ferris
11-09-06, 08:34 AM
FYI, 2 launch window games possible pushed to 2007: F.E.A.R. & Oblivion

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6161356.html?tag=latestnews;title;0


I guess, like I had stated before, theres something wrong if there are no games out for sale at least a few weeks before console launch.

Wildo1966
11-09-06, 08:59 AM
Call the store that these bozo's are camping out at and complain about loitering. If that don't work call the cops on them for loitering. A week before launch is just plain crazy. Call the mall management and complain also. I would say somthing like "can you please clean up the scum outside the Best Buy, it stinks like hell"

pinata242
11-09-06, 09:02 AM
How does the camping affect anyone that isn't doing it?

Ocelot
11-09-06, 09:08 AM
Does anyone know about the power (electricity) consumption of the PS3? i asked because it's related to overheating... i remember the first wave of the Xbox360 uses eletricity almost like that of an AC. People with carpets have to worry about playing the Xbox360 for serveral hours straight (the console is placed on the carpet). Of course, they can rectify it by placing the console on something else (not touching the carpet).

I believe Sony is pretty good at designing top electronics, i don't think there will be overheating problems with the PS3. However, since i'm not in a hurry to get one, i will sit out and read more feedbacks after it's launched. After all, $500 or $600 is alot to think about.

xmiyux
11-09-06, 09:12 AM
I'm really puzzled why people are so offended by the campers. If you had the time and some friends it would be kind of a goofy fun thing to do. You'd bs some, eat some takeout, make it on the news, have some goofy memories about doing something stupid to get something you really wanted.

It sounds way better than those "Hands on a hard body" contests.

Ocelot
11-09-06, 09:33 AM
I'm really puzzled why people are so offended by the campers. If you had the time and some friends it would be kind of a goofy fun thing to do. You'd bs some, eat some takeout, make it on the news, have some goofy memories about doing something stupid to get something you really wanted.

It sounds way better than those "Hands on a hard body" contests.


Personally, i got no problems with campers. Of course, as long as they're responsible citizens (i.e. not jerking around with alcohols and drugs).

Other than that, they can camp as early as they like. I won't call them bums, because they got money to buy an expensive console. If they're doing it for eBay, then they're F*****G crazy. If not, yes, i understand their passion for gaming, cheers!

Anybody have problem with hardcore gamers camping out is just plain sour puss, i.e. you can't or won't do it and yet don't want others to do it.

I, for one, will not be camping, why? b/c like most other pepople, i gotta work! It's not like you can get a free PS3 for camping out...

pinata242
11-09-06, 09:37 AM
It's not like you can get a free PS3 for camping out...
If you go with your spouse/roommate/sibling/etc, sure you can. You each get one, sell the 2nd on eBay and you'll easily cover the cost of both. Of course, that doesn't factor in time expended while waiting. I could easily take vacation (as we can't roll it over to next year) and make some money, but I find the idea of eBay-whoring abhorrent and couldn't bring myself to do that.

Whereas I actually want a Wii, I don't foresee a need to camp out before a few hours out as I expect plenty of launch day stock to go around to the diehards.

Li
11-09-06, 10:26 AM
I for one will be camping out. I'll probably go on Wednesday and make sure no one's started a line. If they have a friend and I'll set up camp too. I had a terrible time last year getting a 360. I waited for 6 hours in 20 degree weather (rather unprepared for the cold) during one of the Best Buy "relaunches" and ended up being the 25th in line for 24 units! It was still a good time, though. I ended up doing some other insane stuff as well and still came up short. It's been fairly nice here the last week, let's hope it carries over to the next. Above freezing would be nice!

Ocelot
11-09-06, 10:34 AM
If you go with your spouse/roommate/sibling/etc, sure you can. You each get one, sell the 2nd on eBay and you'll easily cover the cost of both. Of course, that doesn't factor in time expended while waiting...


Like i said, camping out for eBay purposes, is F*****G crazy. I don't know about other people's times, but to me three or four hours on a line is alot to waste and i doubt that's enough to ensure one unit of PS3. Even though i can read a book or play portable games, still, you're talking about waiting on line! All that times, i can do tons of other meaningful things (opportunity cost people!).

Taking vacation times just to camp out is absurd too. I know it's "you don't take it, you'll lost it" thing, but still, camping out on a line defeats the purpose of vacation times isn't it? Maybe not for some of you, but my idea of vacation is to relax or have fun with your love ones. Of course, if you have a wife or girl friend willing to camp out on a line with you and both of you enjoy it, that's something else...

Lastly, anybody doing it for eBay, they won't see a cent from me and that's one less idiot overpaying the overrated PS3. Of course, most "reasonable" people will bid within the "reasonable" price of the console. Remember folks, there's alot to worry about getting the PS3 on eBay.

Buyer's worries:
1. Seller's rating
2. Shipping of the item, i.e. what if it's damaged?
3. What if you don't get the PS3 in the package? Hey, i know sellers just sell boxes or different content in the boxes.
4. Not damaged, but doesn't work right, what will you do?
5. Hell, what if you didn't get the package, say your neighbor got it?

Seller's worries:
1. Buyer's rating
2. What if it didn't sell over the price i paid for?
3. eBay and PayPal fees
4. Shipping traffic (holiday season)
5. Paperwork if it's lost in transport (assuming you're going to insure it?)
6. Hell, what if the buyer claim you didn't ship it and you really did?


Finally, i would like to say, if you did sell a PS3 for $1000, you made roughly $350 (after all the fees and taxes). Say you camped for seven hours, that's $5 an hour.

mrpayroll
11-09-06, 10:35 AM
just crazy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultimate-Playstation-3-Bundle-HD-LCD-TV-PLUS-5-GAMES_W0QQitemZ140046797889QQihZ004QQcategoryZ62054QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140046797889

I wonder what happens when he doesn't get his preorder to give to the successful bidder. :lol:

Chris

mrpayroll
11-09-06, 10:36 AM
I just saw these idiots tonight. I just looked at them and shook my head.

Was that in Burbank or West L.A?

Chris

mrpayroll
11-09-06, 10:37 AM
The pics above are from Burbank not West LA but sad nonetheless.

So, I was right! :D

Chris

Ocelot
11-09-06, 10:37 AM
Of course, if you're camping out for the love of the games, then it's priceless... Good luck and have fun (i don't see it, but you campers certainly seem to know where the fun is).

Michael Corvin
11-09-06, 10:41 AM
Does anyone know about the power (electricity) consumption of the PS3?

It could run you an additional $80 a year on your electric bill to run the system(based on 4 hour a day use). Power consumption article (http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/sony_playstation_3_further_details.php)

mrpayroll
11-09-06, 10:42 AM
Finally, i would like to say, if you did sell a PS3 for $1000, you made roughly $350 (after all the fees and taxes). Say you camped for seven hours, that's $5 an hour.

Uh, I hated math in school, but $350 / 7 = $50 an hour

That would be worth it! :D


Chris

Ocelot
11-09-06, 10:44 AM
I wonder what happens when he doesn't get his preorder to give to the successful bidder. :lol:

Chris


This is very fishy... the winner's past purchases were marbles, shells, stickers etc... all very low profile items and now all of sudden $3000 PS3? How can a coupon clipper all sudden be so impulsive? Don't add up...

Michael Corvin
11-09-06, 10:46 AM
Seller's worries:
1. Buyer's rating
2. What if it didn't sell over the price i paid for?
3. eBay and PayPal fees
4. Shipping traffic (holiday season)
5. Paperwork if it's lost in transport (assuming you're going to insure it?)
6. Hell, what if the buyer claim you didn't ship it and you really did?


1. Paypal confirmed address requirement to bid helps alleviate this issue
2. Start the bid at your cost + ebay/paypal fees
3. See #2
4. ? Shouldn't be a problem, it's not like this is the first year the Post Office/ UPS has dealt with Christmas
5. Another ?. Signature confirmation with insurance.
6. See #5

Ocelot
11-09-06, 10:47 AM
Uh, I hated math in school, but $350 / 7 = $50 an hour

That would be worth it! :D


Chris


Haha, my bad rotfl

ChrisHicks
11-09-06, 10:49 AM
This is very fishy... the winner's past purchases were marbles, shells, stickers etc... all very low profile items and now all of sudden $3000 PS3? How can a coupon clipper all sudden be so impulsive? Don't add up...

my guess is that he/she sold/bought a bunch of crap just so they could get in the requirement bracket for selling a PS3. look at the dates.

pinata242
11-09-06, 10:49 AM
Taking vacation times just to camp out is absurd too. I know it's "you don't take it, you'll lost it" thing, but still, camping out on a line defeats the purpose of vacation times isn't it? Maybe not for some of you, but my idea of vacation is to relax or have fun with your love ones. Of course, if you have a wife or girl friend willing to camp out on a line with you and both of you enjoy it, that's something else...
To each his own, but if I take vacation, I'm still getting paid my salary. <y wife wouldn't be with me because she'd be working at a job that lets her roll over her vacation. If I don't use my vacation, I lose it. That's an opportunity cost there as well.

But, I wouldn't need my wife or a friend to be with me as I'm not a social introvert, I'd get along just fine with all the other people in line. Like Douglas Adams said, if there's one thing the British excel at, it is queuing; American nerds are no different.

Waiting in line for a potential profit would be a far better use of my vacation time than sitting at home, twiddlin' my bits. At least I'd have something to show for it afterwards.

That's all a moot point in my specific case as I'm not going to do it, but there are plenty of people like me that will be doing this.

Ocelot
11-09-06, 10:51 AM
1. Paypal confirmed address requirement to bid helps alleviate this issue
2. Start the bid at your cost + ebay/paypal fees
3. See #2
4. ? Shouldn't be a problem, it's not like this is the first year the Post Office/ UPS has dealt with Christmas
5. Another ?. Signature confirmation with insurance.
6. See #5


I guess the favor is on the seller's side... okay, so i guess campers for eBay profitting are justified then. Well, i'm not gonna say anything supportive to those people, but it's their right.

ChrisHicks
11-09-06, 10:58 AM
so, how would you like to be on the buyers side if you just bought a PS3 on ebay for 2500.00 and the seller shipped you a weighted box with delivery confirmation and then when you contact Paypal about it they tell you "tough, atleast you got a package"?

this whole PS3 ebay thing could turn into a major nightmare for a buyer with the way Paypal treats these situations.

Ocelot
11-09-06, 11:04 AM
To each his own, but if I take vacation, I'm still getting paid my salary. <y wife wouldn't be with me because she'd be working at a job that lets her roll over her vacation. If I don't use my vacation, I lose it. That's an opportunity cost there as well.

But, I wouldn't need my wife or a friend to be with me as I'm not a social introvert, I'd get along just fine with all the other people in line. Like Douglas Adams said, if there's one thing the British excel at, it is queuing; American nerds are no different.

Waiting in line for a potential profit would be a far better use of my vacation time than sitting at home, twiddlin' my bits. At least I'd have something to show for it afterwards.

That's all a moot point in my specific case as I'm not going to do it, but there are plenty of people like me that will be doing this.


Okay, i get your idea of vacation, i respect that...

Like my posts said, camping out for something you love, priceless. If you love money, then this is an opportunity, but that doesn't make the experience priceless. Now, it's your right to camp out for profit, nobody can deny that. However, most people would agree that camping out for profit are qualified as scalpers. I know i know, it's not an easy thing to camp out, you earn the profit by getting on line early...

Michael Corvin
11-09-06, 11:08 AM
Don't know if this was posted yet.

EA's NBA Live '07 has been dropped for the PS3 and Sonic has been delayed until next year(Holiday '06). Isn't the NBA Live demo on the kiosks? That is fucked up if true.

Both articles are from Kotaku.com (http://www.kotaku.com/)
NBA Live '07 -
PS3 owners will have to wait until next year for some official NBA ball bouncing action. Electronic Arts' NBA Live 07, announced back at E3 in May, has been scrapped outright. EA's PR person David Tinson points out:

"We are concentrating our efforts on creating a spectacular NBA Street: Homecourt [instead of porting NBA Live 07]. [Homecourt] is coming to the PS3 and Xbox 360 early next year. "

Other than being used as an E3 example of what the system's hardware could do, game play details were never disclosed about what exactly was PS3-rrific about NBA Live 07. The first half of next year, NBA Street: Homecourt will hit the Xbox 360 and *hopefully* the PS3. Brian Ashcraft

Sonic the Hedgehog -
Those of you looking forward to spending more time with Shadow the Hedgehog, this time on your PlayStation 3, are going to have to wait a little bit longer. Another PS3 title is going to miss the launch, and this time it's Sega's own flagship mascot, Sonic.

Why the delay, this close to launch? It seems Sega wants to spend more time working on downloadable content, but didn't specify exactly what that downloadable content was. I can only assume they're working on new ways to ruin my positive childhood memories of the Sega Genesis or they've finally inked a deal to get some 50 Cent tracks for Shadow's in-car stereo.

The game is specified now as "holiday 2006". Hopefully, they'll update it to "never". Sorry, I'm surly tonight. Still bitter about that whole Shadow thing.

Liver&Onions
11-09-06, 11:25 AM
Starting a new thread - too long.