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View Full Version : Israel about to go into Gaza [1/21/09 update - they're out]


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DVD Polizei
01-08-09, 09:28 PM
I don't have a link, but some humanitarian agency is now blaming Israel for their employee who got dead delivering supplies. I mean seriously. What the fuck. I swear, some people think this is just a game, and if you wave a white hanky, you'll be fine.

Brack
01-08-09, 10:41 PM
You forgot to mention that after you go into the crowd and take a swing at the little guy he ducks and you accidently hit a kid in the face.

They didn't make everyone sign a waiver beforehand?

DeltaSigChi4
01-09-09, 02:41 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2X35OAb2wGo&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2X35OAb2wGo&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

E

kvrdave
01-09-09, 03:24 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2X35OAb2wGo&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2X35OAb2wGo&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

E


:lol: Obviously I should find a nice Pat Robertson rebuttal just to attempt to balance the scale of thought.

Venusian
01-12-09, 07:36 AM
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424929369&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The Egyptian official accused Iran of "encouraging" Hamas to continue firing rockets at Israel with the hope that this would trigger a war that would divert attention from Iran's nuclear plans.

"This conflict serves the interests of the Iranians," he said. "They are satisfied because the violence in the Gaza Strip has diverted attention from their nuclear ambitions. The Iranians are also hoping to use the Palestinian issue as a 'powerful card' in future talks with the Americans.

"They want to show that they have control over Hamas and many Palestinians".

Karam Jaber, editor of the semi-official Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssef magazine, said that Hamas was caught between the Syrian anvil and the Iranian hammer. The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus.

"History won't forget to mention that Hamas had inflicted death and destruction on the Palestinians," he said. "We hope that Hamas has learned the lesson and realizes that it has been fighting a war on behalf of others. We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians".

Egyptian political analyst Magdi Khalil said he shared the view of the Palestinian Authority and Egypt that Hamas was responsible for the war in the Gaza Strip. "Ever since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, they turned the area into hell," he said. "They imposed restrictions on the people there and even prevented them from performing the pilgrimage to Mecca".

The analyst said that the head of the Egyptian General Intelligence Service was right when he recently described Hamas as a group of gangsters. "Hamas and its masters in Damascus and Teheran want to spread chaos in Egypt," he said. "They want to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip by handing the area over to Egypt. They want to create a homeland for the Palestinians in Sinai".

He said that Hamas was not only jeopardizing Egypt's national security, but had also destroyed the Palestinians' dream of statehood. "By endorsing the Iranian agenda, Hamas has brought the Iranians to Egypt's eastern border," he said. "Hamas has also copied Hizbullah's policy of entering into pointless adventures".



Some Egyptians seem pissed at Hamas

VinVega
01-12-09, 07:52 AM
Some Egyptians seem pissed at Hamas
Well they have a vested interest in seeing Hamas fail. Hamas is closely linked to the Muslim Brotherhood which has a lot of political power on the Muslim street in Egypt. They are a threat to the Egyptian government.

classicman2
01-19-09, 07:56 AM
The Saudi king says his country will donate $1 billion to help rebuild the Gaza Strip after Israel's devastating three-week offensive in the Palestinian territory
-------

Typical move from the Saudis - lip service.

Dr Mabuse
01-19-09, 08:30 AM
:lol:

The Palestinians have been given enough money to build schools, hospitals, universities, housing, etc. many times over. Many times over. WE have sent them millions and millions.

They eagerly spend it on killing other people, including their own children, nt on housing and infrastructure. First time they had a free election, the overwhelming majority showed their support for the people who spend the money on terror, and weapons, and sending children off to blow themselves up.

I always get a laugh of the apologists who claim most Palestinians want peace.

The Saudis discriminate against Palestinians in their own country. They won't be sending any billion dollars.

arminius
01-19-09, 08:48 AM
The Saudi king says his country will donate $1 billion to help rebuild the Gaza Strip after Israel's devastating three-week offensive in the Palestinian territory
-------

Typical move from the Saudis - lip service.
Hey, I too will pledge a bizillion dinky dows. It will come from my next feature film, you know from the net profits.

VinVega
01-21-09, 09:01 AM
So Israel pulled out completely today. Any coincidence with the Obama inauguration? Inquiring minds want to know.

Brack
01-21-09, 10:25 AM
So Israel pulled out completely today. Any coincidence with the Obama inauguration? Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't believe it is a coincidence. They probably fear Obama isn't as pro-everything-Israel as Bush has been. But I'm sure it goes deeper than that.

classicman2
01-21-09, 10:30 AM
So Israel pulled out completely today. Any coincidence with the Obama inauguration? Inquiring minds want to know.


No.

Obama is not going to adopt a different policy toward Israel. Now there might be a little different window dressing, but the basic policy will remain.

Dr Mabuse
01-21-09, 10:44 AM
It was stupid of them to pull out.

Rockets were already being launched into Israel again as the pullout was occurring.

Hamas swearing to re-arm and get back to what they were doing before.

I thought Israel might do this right this time... guess not.

The Bus
01-21-09, 01:39 PM
I thought the cease-fire was only temporary and for a day.

kvrdave
01-21-09, 01:50 PM
It was stupid of them to pull out.

Rockets were already being launched into Israel again as the pullout was occurring.

Hamas swearing to re-arm and get back to what they were doing before.

I thought Israel might do this right this time... guess not.


Agreed. Until they utterly destroy Hama, Israel will continue to be attacked by them.

VinVega
01-21-09, 02:01 PM
Agreed. Until they utterly destroy Hama, Israel will continue to be attacked by them.
Unless you kill all the Palestinians, I don't know how that's going to happen. Until the Palestinians reject the actions of their own people who commit terrorist acts (and don't elect those same people into the government), this will continue on into the far future.

classicman2
01-21-09, 02:08 PM
Solution: Make Jordan take 'em back. :)

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 05:01 PM
:lol:

The Palestinians have been given enough money to build schools, hospitals, universities, housing, etc. many times over. Many times over. WE have sent them millions and millions.

They eagerly spend it on killing other people, including their own children, nt on housing and infrastructure. First time they had a free election, the overwhelming majority showed their support for the people who spend the money on terror, and weapons, and sending children off to blow themselves up.

I always get a laugh of the apologists who claim most Palestinians want peace.

The Saudis discriminate against Palestinians in their own country. They won't be sending any billion dollars.

this is simply wrong in nearly all aspects.

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 05:01 PM
Agreed. Until they utterly destroy Hama, Israel will continue to be attacked by them.
should britain have adopted a similar attitude to the colonial agitators?

OldDude
01-21-09, 05:56 PM
should britain have adopted a similar attitude to the colonial agitators?

Well, they kind of tried.

On the other hand, it was a long distance war, and we were persistent enough to make it too expensive for them. They reached the point where it wasn't worth the effort.

A key difference is that we NEVER represented a threat to the British homeland. We simply pushed them out of the colonies.

If the Palestinian Hamas scum quit shooting rockets at Israel, the peaceful Palestinians (if these mythical creatures really exist) would have a state of their own by now. The scum do represent a threat to the Israeli homeland, and there will never be peace while that threat exists.

classicman2
01-21-09, 05:57 PM
moved to correct thread

OldDude
01-21-09, 05:59 PM
this is simply wrong in nearly all aspects.

So the Palestinians elected a peaceful government that called a ceasefire and negotiated in good faith for Palestinian statehood? I must not have been paying attention that day. Sorry.

Ky-Fi
01-21-09, 06:02 PM
this is simply wrong in nearly all aspects.


You don't believe that the Palestinians are the highest per-capita recipients of foreign aid on the planet?

moorehed
01-21-09, 06:12 PM
How can you guys be in favor of Isreal bombing the shit out of Gaza which has resulted in over 1300 Palestinian casualties with a large amount of children dead, as a reaction to Hamas firing off lo-tech missles that have killed something like a total of 10 people over the past few years?

It seems to me like Isreal was just looking for a reason to decimate Gaza and kill Palestines. If nothing else this was extreme overkill and I don't understand how Americans can root on Isreal in this situation. Killing hundreds of civilians who have nowhere to retreat to? It makes me sick.

Ky-Fi
01-21-09, 06:22 PM
How can you guys be in favor of Isreal bombing the shit out of Gaza which has resulted in over 1300 Palestinian casualties with a large amount of children dead, as a reaction to Hamas firing off lo-tech missles that have killed something like a total of 10 people over the past few years?

It seems to me like Isreal was just looking for a reason to decimate Gaza and kill Palestines. If nothing else this was extreme overkill and I don't understand how Americans can root on Isreal in this situation. Killing hundreds of civilians who have nowhere to retreat to? It makes me sick.

Well, I don't like the fact that lots of civiliains got killed, just as I would assume that you don't like Hamas' religious fundamentalism, repression of women, execution of gays, discrimination of religious and ethnic minorities, violent persectution of intellectuals and artists, and openly stated racist genocidal intentions----everyone just has to consider what values and behaviors they're willing to accept. I think it's largely mushy, wishful thinking to pretend that sometimes you don't have to choose between two unpleasant alternatives. On that front, I side with Israel.

General Zod
01-21-09, 06:24 PM
What about Israeli's who have been living in fear from rocket attacks from Hamas? Is that something that should simply be ignored? Who care about them - right? Hamas should be allowed to continue to fire rockets into Israel just because they don't like them and Israel should NEVER go on the offensive to stop it?

Unlike Hamas - Israel attempts to attack only military targets or targets where there is military activity going on (Rocket fire, etc). Hamas just fires blindly into Israel hoping to kill civilians. There wouldn't be nearly as many Palestinian casualties if Hamas didn't booby-trap schools and use civilians as shields or purposely fight in civilian areas to up the casualty count.

Add to this that the "casualty" count is provided by Hamas..

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84697

OldDude
01-21-09, 06:25 PM
How can you guys be in favor of Isreal bombing the shit out of Gaza which has resulted in over 1300 Palestinian casualties with a large amount of children dead, as a reaction to Hamas firing off lo-tech missles that have killed something like a total of 10 people over the past few years?

It seems to me like Isreal was just looking for a reason to decimate Gaza and kill Palestines. If nothing else this was extreme overkill and I don't understand how Americans can root on Isreal in this situation. Killing hundreds of civilians who have nowhere to retreat to? It makes me sick.


Well, you just have to look at what each side has to do to make the other side agree to stop.

If the Palestinians want Israel to quit attacking, all they have to do is stop shooting rockets, sending suicide bombers, etc.

If the Israelis want the Palestinians to stop attacking, all they have to do is march into the sea and drown. Hamas doesn't want peace or a state of their own, they want the destruction of Israel and the Israelis.

Goven that difference, and the fact that the Palestinians elected these scum as their leaders, it is very difficult to care how many the Israelis kill, or to care about the militant/civilian ratio. Preferable it would be large, but most of the "civilians" fund, vote for, or, when wearing their other clothes, are militants. In Palestine, a "civilian" is a militant who dropped his RPG when he was shot.

I'm sorry to see Israel back down to international pressure once again, instead of finishing this off.

moorehed
01-21-09, 06:35 PM
So then why is it that the entire UN was against what Israel was doing except for the US and Israel who kept vetoing the resolutions? I think you guys are seeing the world through US colored glasses. Articles I have read have not made it sounds like Israel is running this noble war trying to be careful about who and what they attack. Quite the opposite.

In fact one article I read (can't find it now) mentioned that the doctors that came in after the fact to help the injured Palestinians were alarmed at the high number of children they were finding with gunshot wounds to the head.

Sure I don't think Hamas should have been shooting off missiles to begin with, but even that point is in contention and they think they were justified and retaliating. But whatever the situation is there, if some Canadian group were to fire off an attack at Detroit killing 15 people, I would be sad, but could never justify leveling the city of Windsor and killing 1300+ civilians.

And of course there is a propaganda machine coming out of Gaza. But the same thing is coming out of Israel and the US.

Obviously my opinion is in contrast to the majority here, and I'm not expecting to win anyone over.

Ky-Fi
01-21-09, 06:45 PM
So then why is it that the entire UN was against what Israel was doing except for the US and Israel who kept vetoing the resolutions?

That's a question I wonder about on a fairly regular basis, although I suspect my conclusions are a tad bit different from yours. :lol:

OldDude
01-21-09, 06:47 PM
Sure I don't think Hamas should have been shooting off missiles to begin with, but even that point is in contention and they think they were justified and retaliating. But whatever the situation is there, if some Canadian group were to fire off an attack at Detroit killing 15 people, I would be sad, but could never justify leveling the city of Windsor and killing 1300+ civilians.



Hey, I live outside Detroit. If the Canadian group were also the elected government of the city of Windsor, we'd nuke 'em. In fact, Selfridge field used to be a SAC base. (But Canadians are smarter than that.)

The US would NEVER tolerate being attacked like that, and would press an attack that could ONLY be ended by unconditional surrender of the enemy; no other terms would be acceptable. (as we have proven in the past)

kvrdave
01-21-09, 09:15 PM
Sure I don't think Hamas should have been shooting off missiles to begin with, but even that point is in contention and they think they were justified and retaliating. But whatever the situation is there, if some Canadian group were to fire off an attack at Detroit killing 15 people, I would be sad, but could never justify leveling the city of Windsor and killing 1300+ civilians.



You may have the wrong idea about how Hamas works. They fire the rockets from schools and hospitals. They don't do anything to try to keep their own citizens alive, in fact they work damn hard to bring this war to the children. You can go ahead and blame Israel for the deaths of all the civilians, but I just can't. Not because I think the Jews should do whatever they want to, but because I think Hamas should not be shooting missles from schools to begin with.

And if I had no other options, I'd bomb the school to destroy those lobbing missles at me. The blood of the civilian deaths is on Hamas's hands, imo. And that is exactly what they want. Line up for the pity party. No different than Stalin, except they found a way to not do their own dirty work.

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 09:32 PM
Well, they kind of tried.
not really. we didn't bother to really go after the colonists, and our commanding officer decided to eventually settle in the states after the "war".

A key difference is that we NEVER represented a threat to the British homeland. We simply pushed them out of the colonies.
do the palestinians really represent a threat to the state of israel?! look at the small number of israelis killed over the last decade and compare it with the number of palestinians killed. any conclusion that the state of israel is under threat is the stuff of rampant paranoia.

If the Palestinian Hamas scum quit shooting rockets at Israel, the peaceful Palestinians (if these mythical creatures really exist) would have a state of their own by now. The scum do represent a threat to the Israeli homeland, and there will never be peace while that threat exists.
each time israel kills more palestinian civilians they create more palestinian militants. just as if someone killed members of your family you would fight for justice for them. the "state" that is on offer to palestine at the moment is unmanegable and ridiculous.

btw, note that hamas are in power in only one of the palestinian areas, and that the west bank has not responed to the israeli aggression.

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 09:33 PM
You may have the wrong idea about how Hamas works. They fire the rockets from schools and hospitals. They don't do anything to try to keep their own citizens alive, in fact they work damn hard to bring this war to the children. You can go ahead and blame Israel for the deaths of all the civilians, but I just can't. Not because I think the Jews should do whatever they want to, but because I think Hamas should not be shooting missles from schools to begin with.

And if I had no other options, I'd bomb the school to destroy those lobbing missles at me. The blood of the civilian deaths is on Hamas's hands, imo. And that is exactly what they want. Line up for the pity party. No different than Stalin, except they found a way to not do their own dirty work.
you'd kill thousands to possibly kill those who have killed a few dozen? that speaks volumes.

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 09:36 PM
those who think that israel can wipe out hamas, or any of the palestinian terrorist/freedom forces are deeply deluded. their numbers arent a static total that can be erroded by force. each civilan "colateral" casualty brings with it a fresh fighter for the cause, which perpetuates and exacerbates the situation. hamas will have been immeserably strengthened by this action. foresaking genocide this was a pointless exercise on the part of israeli forces, except for domestic political gain.

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 09:37 PM
The analogy with the The Revolution is cute, but the situations have pretty much nothing in common. :lol:
really? what is different?

Burnt Thru
01-21-09, 09:38 PM
if the palestinians become successful they will no doubt also refer to their war as a "revolution" rather than a terrorist action. nomenclature does not change the reality.

OldDude
01-21-09, 10:24 PM
really? what is different?

Well, we didn't really hate the English because we were English too. We just hated the way the king (and Parliament) treated us.

You'd probably do better with an analogy between the early US and the American Indians. Although the fact is that once the Indian Wars started, we put them down pretty hard until they capitulated and moved to reservations.

OldDude
01-21-09, 10:32 PM
. foresaking genocide this was a pointless exercise on the part of israeli forces, except for domestic political gain.

I'm not sure you can forsake genocide when facing a genocidal enemy. Of course, if they ever surrender unconditionally, you can stop, but until then, that is what you have to prepare yourself for.

But I do agree the Israelis play tough for a while, then pause, permitting Hamas to regroup. I too consider this a mistake. But I doubt you agree with my solution.

Dr Mabuse
01-21-09, 10:35 PM
this is simply wrong in nearly all aspects.

:lol:

Locomocha
01-22-09, 02:33 AM
This cycle of violence has been repeating for decades, and I doubt this will be the last time. The story is usually rather familiar. Palestinians engage in terrorist actions and Israel retaliates, causing sufficient collateral damage to ensure that the next wave of terrorism will be virtually impossible for Palestinian leaders to hold back, assuming they wanted to. Unlike the Israeli military, terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah lack a clear hierarchical command and individual units typically have entirely too much autonomy. Hamas' leadership certainly aided and encouraged those who conducted rocket attacks, but they just aren't in a position to cut them off at will.

If one side is going to stop the cycle, it has to be Israel. Only Israel has enough control over it's own forces to enforce a unilateral cease-fire even if the other side is still taking pot-shots. Indeed, Israel has tried this before, but never for long enough. (Let's face it, any Israeli politician who says "Hey, let's turn the other cheek!" is committing political suicide!) It will take years, not months, of "turning the other cheek", to end this conflict. Perhaps even decades. Obviously, this is not a popular solution with the "eye for an eye" crowd, which seems to be the majority of Israel given the broad support for the latest offensive.

Still, taking a decade of primitive rockets is a far better option than keeping that cycle of violence going until Hamas manages to get its hands on some Anthrax or a suitcase nuke. Sooner or later it's going to happen, and there are just enough autonomous whacko's in Hamas that the odds of them actually deploying a WMD, if they had one, are high.

Burnt Thru
01-22-09, 06:26 AM
^ i fully endorse this post and/or product.

Of course what they consider successful is not living peacefully side by side, as is evident by their continued aggression towards Israel. The colonists didn't want to wipe the British Empire off the map. They can call it whatever they want.
there was considerable retaliation against those loyal to the crown after the revolution, with many people fleeing to canada. looking at the most hardline palestinians (hamas) and equating them with the entire population is a mistake. just as thinking that all americans are as foolish as dubya would be wrong too.

Burnt Thru
01-22-09, 06:33 AM
The first difference is that Israel could wipe Hamas off the face of the earth with ease if it's entire military power was used. Britain did not have a large land force and had to recruit Germans and even then its forces were spread over a large continent. They simply could not have "adopted that attitude" as you responded to kvrdave's post.

The second difference is of course the obvious distance between the two countries compared to the fact that Palestinians and Israelis have to share close quarters.
there are, of course differences, but there are also striking similarities. the colonials adopted "unconventional" warfare that was considered beyond the pale at the time, just as hamas are not exactly playing by the rules we civilized nations have laid down. there is little doubt that british forces could have dealt far more harshly with the uprising had they wished to. cornwallis didn't exactly do a sherman on the south, did he. but then he was sympathetic to the position of the colonials, as were a great many british people.

Burnt Thru
01-22-09, 06:37 AM
I'm not sure you can forsake genocide when facing a genocidal enemy. Of course, if they ever surrender unconditionally, you can stop, but until then, that is what you have to prepare yourself for.

But I do agree the Israelis play tough for a while, then pause, permitting Hamas to regroup. I too consider this a mistake. But I doubt you agree with my solution.
the difference is in the definition of who exactly is the enemy. hamas are not a nice bunch of boys and girls, but they aren't palestine. killing more civilians bolsters their numbers, and is an inevitable consequence of trying to kill hamas members in the current manner. hence it's a self defeating policy. offering up a final solution for the palestinians as a whole would, of course, reduce someone to the same level as hamas. there is a third option, which is to try and undermine hamas from their support within the palestinian community, and to divide hamas within itself (ala the ira). currently the opposite of this is being achieved.

Burnt Thru
01-22-09, 06:38 AM
:lol:congrats!

Ky-Fi
01-22-09, 07:52 AM
If one side is going to stop the cycle, it has to be Israel. Only Israel has enough control over it's own forces to enforce a unilateral cease-fire even if the other side is still taking pot-shots. Indeed, Israel has tried this before, but never for long enough. (Let's face it, any Israeli politician who says "Hey, let's turn the other cheek!" is committing political suicide!) It will take years, not months, of "turning the other cheek", to end this conflict. Perhaps even decades. Obviously, this is not a popular solution with the "eye for an eye" crowd, which seems to be the majority of Israel given the broad support for the latest offensive.

Still, taking a decade of primitive rockets is a far better option than keeping that cycle of violence going until Hamas manages to get its hands on some Anthrax or a suitcase nuke. Sooner or later it's going to happen, and there are just enough autonomous whacko's in Hamas that the odds of them actually deploying a WMD, if they had one, are high.


Now let's logically dissect this argument. You're saying that if Israel doesn't respond with force to Hamas rocket attacks, that will cause Hamas to sit back and say:

"hey, those nice Israelis aren't even responding to our rocket attacks. You know, we really have to stop this violence, and live in peace. We Palestinian factions may not agree on a lot of things, but peace with Israel and a harmonious two-state solution is certainly something we can all agree on."

It's almost mind-boggling to me how far much of the modern left is completely divorced from reality. You would seem to have not even a basic understanding of the nature of man and history. Are you not even able to comprehend that the Jews in Europe didn't respond with violence to the "final solution" of the Europeans, and it didn't slow down their genocide? Do you really believe that peoples and countries only commit agression, and wide-scale atrocities because they have been treated badly?

This is pretty much the post-modern, materialist view of humanity and history----If any culture acts in ways which we deem contrary to modern liberal values, the ONLY possible reasons are:


1. poverty
2. lack of education
3. understandable response to injustice perpetrated on them

And via this world view, the only options offerred to solve any conflict are

1. Give them more money
2. Appease, compromise and accede to their demands


....and when this approach invariably doesn't stop the violence, the same old line of "both sides are equally to blame" is trotted out.

For pity's sake, even the Dalai Lama understands the limits of non-violence against terrorists:

Non-violence cannot tackle terrorism: Dalai Lama
Jan 17, 2009 at 2025 hrs IST

The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.

"It is difficult to deal with terrorism through non-violence," the Tibetan spiritual leader said delivering the Madhavrao Scindia Memorial Lecture here.

He termed terrorism as the worst kind of violence which is not carried by a few mad people but by those who are very brilliant and educated.

"They (terrorists) are very brilliant and educated...but a strong ill feeling is bred in them. Their minds are closed," the Dalai Lama said....

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nonviolence-cannot-tackle-terrorism-dalai-l.../411980/

wendersfan
01-22-09, 08:12 AM
It's almost mind-boggling to me how far much of the modern left is completely divorced from reality. You would seem to have not even a basic understanding of the nature of man and history. Are you not even able to comprehend that the Jews in Europe didn't respond with violence to the "final solution" of the Europeans, and it didn't slow down their genocide? Do you really believe that peoples and countries only commit agression, and wide-scale atrocities because they have been treated badly? And this is a mind-bogglingly ridiculous analogy. The power dynamic between the Nazis and Jews vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians is totally different. Regardless of whose side you're "on" (or even if you don't have a side), you have to realize that it's the Israelis who have the most power in this relationship. That alone does not compel them to act, but they certainly have more ability to act than the Palestinians.

Ky-Fi
01-22-09, 08:23 AM
And this is a mind-bogglingly ridiculous analogy. The power dynamic between the Nazis and Jews vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians is totally different. Regardless of whose side you're "on" (or even if you don't have a side), you have to realize that it's the Israelis who have the most power in this relationship. That alone does not compel them to act, but they certainly have more ability to act than the Palestinians.


And WHY is the power dynamic different today, after most of the world predicted that Israel would be destroyed in 1948 by the Arab armies? It's because the Jews understood that non-violence and constant concession in the name of a false peace would lead to their extermination, just as it would today.

wendersfan
01-22-09, 08:30 AM
And WHY is the power dynamic different today, after most of the world predicted that Israel would be destroyed in 1948 by the Arab armies? It's because the Jews understood that non-violence and constant concession in the name of a false peace would lead to their extermination, just as it would today.Never mind.

OldDude
01-22-09, 08:37 AM
the difference is in the definition of who exactly is the enemy. hamas are not a nice bunch of boys and girls, but they aren't palestine. killing more civilians bolsters their numbers, and is an inevitable consequence of trying to kill hamas members in the current manner. hence it's a self defeating policy. offering up a final solution for the palestinians as a whole would, of course, reduce someone to the same level as hamas. there is a third option, which is to try and undermine hamas from their support within the palestinian community, and to divide hamas within itself (ala the ira). currently the opposite of this is being achieved.

You know, it was a lot easier to naively believe in "peaceful Palestinians" before they elected Hamas terrorists as their leaders. They are pretty suspect now. I think it is time to attack aggressively until they unconditionally surrender and can be fully disarmed.

Since Hamas don't care about the civilians, the casualties in that scenario will be VERY high.

wendersfan
01-22-09, 08:44 AM
You know, it was a lot easier to naively believe in "peaceful Palestinians" before they elected Hamas terrorists as their leaders. They are pretty suspect now.I realize the "average Palestinian" probably voted for them because they thought Hamas could provide better social services and the like, but they still had to know what they were voting for. Mussolini may have made the trains run on time, but that didn't make him a nice guy.

Dr Mabuse
01-22-09, 09:20 AM
I realize the "average Palestinian" probably voted for them because they thought Hamas could provide better social services and the like, but they still had to know what they were voting for. Mussolini may have made the trains run on time, but that didn't make him a nice guy.

The Palestinians voted for Hamas because they want to kill Jews and attack Israel, and they didn't think Fatah would get the job done.

I know what you posted was the spin put on it by the apologist western media, that they were voting against the corruption of Fatah and Arafat. Granted there was a lot of taquiya going on in Palestine with their awareness of the power of the media and how to use it like a tool.

But the Palestinians voted for terrorists knowing full well what they were voting for. Hamas openly acknowledges that, as do their allies. They openly announce that the Palestinians were voting for armed 'Islamic resistance' in the election. They say this openly it just doesn't get coverage. They have thousands of Palestinians gather and chant terrorist crap at their rallies.

Remember these 'average Palestinians' are the ones who put bombs on 5 year old children and put them on TV to inspire others children to go blow themselves up. The TV shows for their children are why you should kill Jews and destroy Israel.

It's amazing to me how many people in the west are either completely ignorant of the reality there amongst the Palestinians, or just deliberately trying to pretend it's not the truth.

This video is the reality of what the 'average peace loving Palestinians' teach their children over there.

8dPb1bF-s4M

It's kind of ridiculous that the same people who will try to explain this stuff away would freak out if children in the US started talking this stuff on the TV here. Suddenly they would know full well what this sort of talk from children indicates in a society.

Here's a 'play' put on by children in Gaza. Note the little girl showing off the 'blood of the Jews' on her hands in the 'martyr' getup.

yncV2AYGA8Y

Yeah those people want more social services and a better life for their children. :rolleyes:

eXcentris
01-22-09, 06:13 PM
It's amazing to me how many people in the west are either completely ignorant of the reality there amongst the Palestinians, or just deliberately trying to pretend it's not the truth.

And here's a typical Dr.Mabuse argument, i.e. he speaks the "truth" and anyone who disagrees is therefore ignorant. You're confusing "truth" with picking and choosing facts/events and using gross generalizations and hyperbole to draw conclusions which fit your pre-existing opinion on this issue.

It's also terribly ironic because when I read your posts, my initial reaction is invariably "how can one be so completely ignorant of the daily realities of the life of Palestinians in the occupied territories."

What's also ironic is that some members of this forum espouse a more extreme position on this issue that a significant proportion of Israelis.

eXcentris
01-22-09, 06:21 PM
It's almost mind-boggling to me how far much of the modern left is completely divorced from reality. You would seem to have not even a basic understanding of the nature of man and history.


And here's another example where "ideology" is made to pass as "basic understanding" or "truth".

"Man is more tormented by the opinion he has of things than by the things themselves." (Épictète, Greek philosopher)

Ponder that. :)

kvrdave
01-22-09, 06:33 PM
It's also terribly ironic because when I read your posts, my initial reaction is invariably "how can one be so completely ignorant of the daily realities of the life of Palestinians in the occupied territories."



Yes, like, "Do I become a beautiful martyr this week, or wait until I am 14. It's natural."

I dont' know how anyone can look at what is on their tv shows and not see the obvious sides of this.

eXcentris
01-22-09, 06:40 PM
Yes, like, "Do I become a beautiful martyr this week, or wait until I am 14. It's natural."

I dont' know how anyone can look at what is on their tv shows and not see the obvious sides of this.

The "obvious sides" is exactly what gets in the way of logic, reason, intelligent analysis and critical thinking. Life (events) isn't an editorial or an ope'd piece.

Now ponder the above quote. :)

Artman
01-22-09, 06:50 PM
Images you probably didn't see from our media (warning - very graphic, mostly children)

http://www.elfarra.org/gallery/gaza.htm

OldDude
01-22-09, 06:56 PM
Images you probably didn't see from our media (warning - very graphic, mostly children)

http://www.elfarra.org/gallery/gaza.htm

Yeah, love the propaganda:
And now my dear friend after what you have seen of oppression and torture which humans suffer on this land who only want to live a decent life, and I believe after you have seen this painful reality you will start thinking how you can help those people?

If they only want to live a decent life, perhaps they shouldn't elect leaders determined to shoot rockets at Israel. If you poke a hornet's nest, you get stung. They elected the cause of their suffering.

Ky-Fi
01-22-09, 07:01 PM
"Man is more tormented by the opinion he has of things than by the things themselves." (Épictète, Greek philosopher)

Ponder that. :)

Yeah, well

"Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance." --GK Chesterton, The Speaker, 12/15/1900

Burnt Thru
01-22-09, 07:20 PM
What's also ironic is that some members of this forum espouse a more extreme position on this issue that a significant proportion of Israelis.
there is also an infered call for genocide against the palestinians from some, which is strangely what they despise about hamas. i guess these people must hate themselves!

the tv shows put up in this thread do not represent the mainstream of palestinian broadcasting. picking a few programs to represent any nation's culture could provide some pretty squewed impressions.

Th0r S1mpson
01-22-09, 07:26 PM
Oh yeah well

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W Bush, Sept. 17, 2002

General Zod
01-22-09, 07:49 PM
there is also an infered call for genocide against the palestinians from some
Where?

moorehed
01-22-09, 07:49 PM
So was Hamas elected in, or did they overthrow Fatah by force ? I find contradictory information, even on American news sites.


Hamas seized control of Gaza from Fatah by force in 2007 and Fatah set up a rival Palestinian government in the West Bank.



"We have a legitimate government in Gaza that came through a democratic choice, and it is working on the streets, and it is a legitimate body to receive the aid and to rebuild Gaza," Fawzi Barhoum, a Hamas official in Gaza, told The Associated Press.


I also find the Hamas was using human shields and the like arguments a bit ill founded, as Hamas was in charge of social services as well as military endeavors and Israel basically said they would not differentiate between the two in their attacks. It's all Hamas baby. EEEEVIL TERRORISTS. Blow that shit up.

Ky-Fi
01-22-09, 08:15 PM
Oh yeah well

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W Bush, Sept. 17, 2002


On the talk radio station I listen to at work, one of the hosts plays this audio clip about 5 times a day, and I crack up every single time. Will Ferell couldn't even make it better than the original.

Ky-Fi
01-22-09, 08:47 PM
I also find the Hamas was using human shields and the like arguments a bit ill founded.....

The following is the full text of the comments by Hamas representative Fathi Hamad:

"For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."

[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Feb. 29, 2008]
To view video in English click here.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Dec2008.htm#b2912082

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RTu-AUE9ycs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RTu-AUE9ycs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

eXcentris
01-22-09, 10:22 PM
Sure Hamas use that tactic of using civilians as shields. The question is: Does that apply everytime Israel kills civilians as they claim? Of course not. Let's not forget that there are two propaganda machines at work here.

Oh, and PMW (Palestinian Media Watch) is an Israeli-based, pro-Israeli organization. So read with appropriate filters on.

wishbone
01-22-09, 10:34 PM
Do these videos contain a journalistic slant?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sRmYYSp0-B8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sRmYYSp0-B8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Reuters - Palestinians Terrorists use UN Ambulance

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zmXXUOs27lI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zmXXUOs27lI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007

Th0r S1mpson
01-22-09, 10:41 PM
Sure Hamas use that tactic of using civilians as shields. The question is: Does that apply everytime Israel kills civilians as they claim? Of course not. Let's not forget that there are two propaganda machines at work here.

Is this a pro-Hamas argument, or an anti-Israel argument, I'm confused.

kvrdave
01-22-09, 11:14 PM
there is also an infered call for genocide against the palestinians from some, which is strangely what they despise about hamas. i guess these people must hate themselves!

the tv shows put up in this thread do not represent the mainstream of palestinian broadcasting. picking a few programs to represent any nation's culture could provide some pretty squewed impressions.

So those programs that call for blowing yourself up, don't represent the mainstream which, by a majority, elected a party that calls for blowing yourself up?

kvrdave
01-22-09, 11:17 PM
Sure Hamas use that tactic of using civilians as shields. The question is: Does that apply everytime Israel kills civilians as they claim? Of course not. Let's not forget that there are two propaganda machines at work here.



That's the question? Really? :lol:

wmansir
01-22-09, 11:33 PM
Surprise surprise, Obama is splitting from the Bush admins largely unwavering support of Israel.

Obama urges Israel to open Gaza borders (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7cf745dc-e8ce-11dd-a4d0-0000779fd2ac.html)

By Daniel Dombey in Washington and Tobias Buck in Jerusalem

Published: January 22 2009 22:07 | Last updated: January 23 2009 00:04

President Barack Obama urged Israel on Thursday to open its borders with Gaza.

The plea came in a speech that signalled the new US administration’s shift from Bush-era policy on the Middle East and the world as a whole. In a high-profile address on his second day in office, just hours after he signed an executive order to close the centre at Guantánamo Bay, Mr Obama proclaimed that the US would “actively and aggressively seek a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians” in the wake of this month’s Gaza war.

“The outline for a durable ceasefire is clear: Hamas must end its rocket fire: Israel will complete the withdrawal of its forces from Gaza: the US and our partners will support a credible anti-smuggling and interdiction regime, so that Hamas cannot re-arm,” the US president said.

“As part of a lasting ceasefire, Gaza’s border crossings should be open to allow the flow of aid and commerce, with an appropriate monitoring regime, with the international and Palestinian Authority participating.”

Mr Obama and Hillary Clinton, secretary of state, also announced the appointment of George Mitchell, as the US special envoy for the Arab-Israeli conflict and Richard Holbrooke, former US ambassador to the United Nations, as representative for Afghanistan-Pakistan.

The moves signalled another shift from the foreign policy of the Bush administration, which had resisted appointing a high-profile envoy for Middle East peace.

Although Condoleezza Rice, who finished her tenure as secretary of state this week, brokered a 2005 deal to allow open border crossings to Gaza, access was often shut down, with Israel citing security concerns and Hamas launching rocket attacks. The issue is set to test the authority of the new administration as it begins to grapple with the Middle East conflict.

Before Mr Obama gave his speech, an Israeli official said there would be tough conditions for any lifting of the blockade, which he linked with the release of Gilad Shalit, a soldier held captive by Hamas since 2006.

“If the opening of the passages strengthens Hamas we will not do it,” the official said.

“We will make sure that all the [humanitarian] needs of the population will be met. But we will not be able to deal with Hamas on the other side. We will not do things that give legitimacy to Hamas.”

Under its ceasefire, Hamas has given Israel until Sunday to open the borders. Much of Gaza’s civilian infrastructure has been destroyed during the three-week Israeli offensive and, without building materials and other supplies, there is little hope of rebuilding the water, sewage and power networks as well as private homes and key government buildings. But many foreign donors share Israel’s concerns that the reconstruction efforts should not be led by Hamas, or enhance the group’s legitimacy.

“Let me be clear: America is committed to Israel’s security and we will always support Israel’s right to defend itself against legitimate threats,” Mr Obama said.

But in comments referring to the Gaza conflict he added: “I was deeply concerned by the loss of Palestinian and Israeli life in recent days and by the substantial suffering and humanitarian needs in Gaza. Our hearts go out to Palestinian civilians who are in need of immediate food, clean water, and basic medical care, and who’ve faced suffocating poverty for far too long.”

He called on Arab governments to “act on” the promise of a Saudi-led 2002 Arab peace initiative by supporting the Palestinian Authority headed by President Mahmoud Abbas “taking steps towards normalising relations with Israel, and by standing up to extremism that threatens us all.”

Maybe I'm slipping back into my old Clintonian habit of parsing every "is", but I wonder what the Obama admin considers "legitimate" threats. As we've seen in this forum there are some who don't consider dozens of rockets launched at civilians daily to be worthy of response.

eXcentris
01-22-09, 11:37 PM
Is this a pro-Hamas argument, or an anti-Israel argument, I'm confused.

Good. Perhaps being confused will force you to think a little. :)

eXcentris
01-22-09, 11:42 PM
That's the question? Really? :lol:

Well that's one question. But the point is that propaganda exists on both side and they obscure shady tactics on both side. Who you choose to believe has little to do with "truth", and a lot to do with the opinion you already have on the issue prior to the events even occuring. Which goes back to what I hinted at earlier, i.e. that when discussing a topic as sensitive and polarizing as this one, events only seem to exist in order to suit one's opinion(s).

Hank Ringworm
01-22-09, 11:56 PM
Well that's one question. But the point is that propaganda exists on both side and they obscure shady tactics on both side. Who you choose to believe has little to do with "truth", and a lot to do with the opinion you already have on the issue prior to the events even occuring. Which goes back to what I hinted at earlier, i.e. that when discussing a topic as sensitive and polarizing as this one, events only seem to exist in order to suit one's opinion(s).

Do you consider your views and knowledge of the events above this phenomenon?

eXcentris
01-23-09, 12:12 AM
Do you consider your views and knowledge of the events above this phenomenon?

No.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 12:22 AM
Surprise surprise, Obama is splitting from the Bush admins largely unwavering support of Israel.



Maybe I'm slipping back into my old Clintonian habit of parsing every "is", but I wonder what the Obama admin considers "legitimate" threats. As we've seen in this forum there are some who don't consider dozens of rockets launched at civilians daily to be worthy of response.

Nothing will change in reality. When Israel did not like what Bush had to say, they ignored him and did what they thought was best for them. They will continue to do that with Obama.

Okay, I will never be president, but if I were, I would not act quickly to try to be the next guy to put together peace in the Middle East. It's a loser. Won't happen. Can't be done by American policy. You basically put one in the "lost" category just by taking it on.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 12:25 AM
Well that's one question. But the point is that propaganda exists on both side and they obscure shady tactics on both side. Who you choose to believe has little to do with "truth", and a lot to do with the opinion you already have on the issue prior to the events even occuring. Which goes back to what I hinted at earlier, i.e. that when discussing a topic as sensitive and polarizing as this one, events only seem to exist in order to suit one's opinion(s).

I believe that the Palestinian people are victims in this regard....they continually believe their leaders and other Arab countries that life will get better is they do what those parties say. I believe the vast majority of Palestinian people want peace, to live a nice quiet life, and grow old. But the blame, imo, still lies with the Palestinian government and many other Arab governments that continually throw them to the wolves.

eXcentris
01-23-09, 12:27 AM
The Palestinians are, saddly, being used by every party involved, from Hamas, to the Arab States, to Israel.

eXcentris
01-23-09, 12:48 AM
To get back to propaganda, we mostly hear about the Hamas manipulation machine (doctored footage, carefully staged "visits" for journalists, etc...) but not that much about how Israel manipulates the media and information. The simple fact that Israel did not allow international journalists in Gaza (I believe a couple were finally allowed, embedded with troops, in carefully selected "missions"), and also never allow independent investigations into incidents involving civilian deaths should be enough to make anyone go "hmmmmm" but there's more.

A local journalist sent to Israel to cover the conflict reported the following:

After being accredited, you are given a detailed information package carefully detailing where you can and cannot go, who you can talk to, etc... For example, you want to go to a town where Hamas rockets land and talk to an Israeli there? No problem, there's a booklet for that with names, telephone numbers and other languages the person speak. If you only speak French, or German, or... you have to talk to THAT person. You don't think these people have been carefully selected?

Now here's a funny bit. The journalist in question is sitting in his hotel room, typing an article with the BBC playing in the background on the tv. Then he notices something odd. The piece is from BBC news but the voice doesn't register. Then he figures out that the commentary on the BBC piece is a voiceover, done by an Israeli, speaking english with a British accent. :lol:

kvrdave
01-23-09, 12:57 AM
I also have no doubt about that. Israel is ruthless in protecting itself. And I think that when they see what journalists do to public opinion (in the vietnam war, Gulf war, Iraq, etc.) they probably decide that it is in the best interest to not get journalists out there, because it is something they can't control. Honestly, I feel that journalists in war zones tend to make wars unwinnable. But I can also see how it raises our suspicions, and rightfully so.

Locomocha
01-23-09, 12:58 AM
Yes, Hamas uses civilians as human shields. It's a dirty tactic, but when Israel blows up children to get at militants, Hamas gets 20 hard believing recruits for every militant they lose. This is a culture that glorifies martyrdom. Sympathy from the international community is just a bonus. This is why Israel needs to exercise more restraint. Hamas would not be where they are today without Israel. One should take note of the fact that Hamas declared victory after Israel left, just as they, or similar groups, always do after one of these one-sided bouts. They're not fooling themselves either. While Palestinians may have lost, Hamas probably has more new recruits than they know what to do with!

Pundits can go on and on about how savage Hamas and Palestinians are, but they rarely pay much attention to the fact that, sooner or later, Hamas is going to get their hands on weapons that can really do some damage. A Qassam armed with conventional explosives might not be much of a threat, but what about a Qassam loaded with Ebola or any of a dozen other biological agents? Put simply, time is not on Israel's side. If they continue with these periodic incursions the only thing known for sure is that Hamas will continue to thrive.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 01:55 AM
Maybe dirty bombs, but not biological. It is too small of an area, and a Hamas leader could well end up getting it, as well as other areas.

But there is also a problem with restraint. Doing nothing would simply embolden them because "the Jews are scared to do anything against Hamas," and they would gain recruits who want to be in on the glory.

I don't think it is possible, but assassination of Hamas leaders is really the best way, and in that, you still need to continue to take out the leaders that follow, and there would be a good stream of them for awhile. And that would have to be done in such a way that Israel had plausible deniability, or they take an international hit for assassinating government officials, and a lot of them.

But it is a dead on assessment that this is Palestinian culture.

Locomocha
01-23-09, 03:50 AM
Maybe dirty bombs, but not biological. It is too small of an area, and a Hamas leader could well end up getting it, as well as other areas.

If they get such a weapon, it might not be a "leader"'s decision to deploy it. We are talking about people fanatical enough to strap a bomb to their chest after all.

But there is also a problem with restraint. Doing nothing would simply embolden them because "the Jews are scared to do anything against Hamas," and they would gain recruits who want to be in on the glory.

It's a possibility. It's also possible that, if not faced with what they perceive to be a struggle for survival, the more fanatical elements of Hamas might no longer be willing to commit extreme acts such as suicide bombing. Regardless, a possible way out is better than a certain way to keep the violence going.

I don't think it is possible, but assassination of Hamas leaders is really the best way, and in that, you still need to continue to take out the leaders that follow, and there would be a good stream of them for awhile. And that would have to be done in such a way that Israel had plausible deniability, or they take an international hit for assassinating government officials, and a lot of them.

The notion that you can fight a war of attrition against organizations like Hamas is deeply flawed. Hamas is recruiting faster than they are dying. Also, as I've said before, Hamas doesn't really rely on centralized leadership too much. Killing a Hamas leader typically only lends credence to his anti-Israel rhetoric. There is also no such thing as plausible deniability for Israel when a Hamas leader dies. They are probably already blamed for the deaths of leaders who have heart attacks.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 07:09 AM
Maybe dirty bombs, but not biological.
dirty bombs are no more destructive than conventional bombs. the fear exists in the public mind, not in reality. on the subject of biological weapons the south africans were working on viruses that targetted only black humans. i doubt research in this area has tailed off since their regime ended.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 07:10 AM
Where?
do you have mabuse on block? old dude or classic man (can't remember which, sorry) have also more than hinted at this.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 07:15 AM
Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007
i believe i've read that this occured some years ago and not in the last few months as was originaly claimed. it's still pretty shameful of course.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 07:21 AM
So those programs that call for blowing yourself up, don't represent the mainstream which, by a majority, elected a party that calls for blowing yourself up?
the majority of catholics in northern ireland aren't terrorists and yet they vote for sinn fein. most political parties have a wide number of political issues they campaign on. hamas toned down their rhetoric about wiping out israel in the election, and managed to secure victory in one of the palestinian territories. much of their campaign seemed to focus on the corruption of fatah and the good they would do with regard to basic services in gaza. are you saying you know that people voted for them because they want to kill israelis? isn't it just as likely that they were sick of fatah and were fooled by politicians into supporting something they didn't really want. bush/iraq anyone..

wendersfan
01-23-09, 08:34 AM
the majority of catholics in northern ireland aren't terroristsThat's just spin from the apologist Western media.

Dr Mabuse
01-23-09, 08:38 AM
That's just spin from the apologist Western media.

:rimshot:

eXcentris
01-23-09, 10:01 AM
Before discussing the best way to get rid of Hamas (whether it's "going all out", targetted assassinations of leaders or something else), one must ask if it is in Israel's best interest to completely ged rid of Hamas or if the divide and rule approach suits them just fine.

Dr Mabuse
01-23-09, 10:33 AM
Considering Hamas kills and terrorizes Palestinians.

It might be in the Palestinian's interest to get rid of them.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 10:37 AM
dirty bombs are no more destructive than conventional bombs. the fear exists in the public mind, not in reality. on the subject of biological weapons the south africans were working on viruses that targetted only black humans. i doubt research in this area has tailed off since their regime ended.


Agreed. But I think terrorists like to use fear, don't you?

kvrdave
01-23-09, 10:40 AM
the majority of catholics in northern ireland aren't terrorists and yet they vote for sinn fein. most political parties have a wide number of political issues they campaign on. hamas toned down their rhetoric about wiping out israel in the election, and managed to secure victory in one of the palestinian territories. much of their campaign seemed to focus on the corruption of fatah and the good they would do with regard to basic services in gaza. are you saying you know that people voted for them because they want to kill israelis? isn't it just as likely that they were sick of fatah and were fooled by politicians into supporting something they didn't really want. bush/iraq anyone..


If a person votes for David Duke because of his economic policy despite the fact that he is a high ranking KKK member, they would still fit in the "racist" category in my mind. If a person votes for an organization like Hamas, they would still fit in the "terrorist" category in my mind. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking Hamas was an organization focused on community good with a little terrorism thrown in, it was the opposite.

Oh, and I would not support sinn fein either. If I did, it would be a good point.

Th0r S1mpson
01-23-09, 10:45 AM
I just heard on CNN that a permanent peace agreement has been reached. -eek-

Edit: I guess they weren't talking about Israel, they were talking about Republicans and democrats. :(

Edit: Never mind, they weren't talking about any of that. I guess Sasha and Malia were fighting over some shoes and Obama brokered a compromise by changing the dessert menu. Then he stared down a press corps member for leaking it.

eXcentris
01-23-09, 11:14 AM
If a person votes for David Duke because of his economic policy despite the fact that he is a high ranking KKK member, they would still fit in the "racist" category in my mind. If a person votes for an organization like Hamas, they would still fit in the "terrorist" category in my mind.


Was your white guy who voted for Duke a slave on a plantation run by blacks? :)

Without context, your comparison is meaningless.

Let me ask you (and all those who use the "but they voted for Hamas!" argument) this question:

If you had been born as a Palestinian and had suffered decades of occupation with all that implies, can you tell me with 100% certainty that you would never have voted for Hamas? If you answer yes, I won't believe you.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 11:20 AM
Then why ask the question? :lol:

Dr Mabuse
01-23-09, 11:22 AM
Then why ask the question? :lol:

That's pretty much the point with eX.

He implies people are closed minded while being closed minded.

eXcentris
01-23-09, 11:37 AM
Then why ask the question? :lol:

To discuss what you will write after "No, because..." :)

Ky-Fi
01-23-09, 11:45 AM
Let me ask you (and all those who use the "but they voted for Hamas!" argument) this question:

If you had been born as a Palestinian and had suffered decades of occupation with all that implies, can you tell me with 100% certainty that you would never have voted for Hamas? If you answer yes, I won't believe you.

"Born a Palestinian"?---heck, I imagine you'd vote for them NOW if they were running in Quebec. :rimshot:

But seriously, there's ALWAYS legitimate reasons why populations support evil movements and organizations. It doesn't change the fact that the movements are still evil.

And by being sympathetic towards people supporting Hamas, you're undercutting the REAL liberals among the Palestinians (and the Arab world) who are risking life and limb (and often lose them) by supporting things like women's rights, religious reform, artistic and intellectual freedom, gay rights, etc. These people DO exist in the Muslim world, and are fighting with incredible bravery for things that we take for granted, and the LAST thing that they want or need is Western apologetics and justification for Hamas or other Islamic extremists.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 11:50 AM
To discuss what you will write after "No, because..." :)


You need to work on setting traps. :lol:

eXcentris
01-23-09, 11:55 AM
And by being sympathetic towards people supporting Hamas, you're undercutting the REAL liberals among the Palestinians (and the Arab world) who are risking life and limb (and often lose them) by supporting things like women's rights, religious reform, artistic and intellectual freedom, gay rights, etc. These people DO exist in the Muslim world, and are fighting with incredible bravery for things that we take for granted, and the LAST thing that they want or need is Western apologetics and justification for Hamas or other Islamic extremists.

I'm sympathetic towards the plight of the Palestinians in general and I understand the reasons why a lot of them voted for Hamas. Which of course doesn't mean I support Hamas. But thanks for your usual predictable rant...

eXcentris
01-23-09, 11:56 AM
You need to work on setting traps. :lol:

Your Palestinian neighbor owns an annoying dog. :lol:

kvrdave
01-23-09, 12:21 PM
Your Palestinian neighbor owns an annoying dog. :lol:

See, if they just strapped bombs to dogs, they'd get a little sympathy out of me.

spainlinx0
01-23-09, 12:41 PM
If they strapped bombs to dogs you'd move there.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 12:49 PM
Let's not go crazy. But I would send them dogs.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 01:14 PM
Agreed. But I think terrorists like to use fear, don't you?
of course, but the fear being spread would be the result of misleading public information. some of it allowed/promoted by our governments during the build-up to gulf 2.

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 01:15 PM
See, if they just strapped bombs to dogs, they'd get a little sympathy out of me.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_nvfQw8UCDE

kvrdave
01-23-09, 01:19 PM
:lol: "Being old, they would have been dead soon anyways, but the dog was in its prime."

Burnt Thru
01-23-09, 01:22 PM
If a person votes for David Duke because of his economic policy despite the fact that he is a high ranking KKK member, they would still fit in the "racist" category in my mind. If a person votes for an organization like Hamas, they would still fit in the "terrorist" category in my mind. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking Hamas was an organization focused on community good with a little terrorism thrown in, it was the opposite.
of course that is the reality of the situation. however, if you look at it from the perspective of a population desperate for basic services such as food and water then you can perhaps understand how other policies (which aren't campaign issues) are easier to ignore. that doesn't mean the general population supports hamas' more base interests, just that they'd quite like to have something to eat and drink.

Oh, and I would not support sinn fein either. If I did, it would be a good point.
they are, and have been, very popular in america, however. hamas on the other hand are beyond the pale. this is interesting to me.

OldDude
01-23-09, 01:28 PM
See, if they just strapped bombs to dogs, they'd get a little sympathy out of me.

Close, but no cigar. They had a suicide donkey, once. Well, the donkey may not have given informed consent; it might have just been donkey-cide.

kvrdave
01-23-09, 01:35 PM
of course that is the reality of the situation. however, if you look at it from the perspective of a population desperate for basic services such as food and water then you can perhaps understand how other policies (which aren't campaign issues) are easier to ignore. that doesn't mean the general population supports hamas' more base interests, just that they'd quite like to have something to eat and drink.



Despite the hardline take of the David Duke analogy, I did say, and believe, that the majority of Palestinian people are truly victims in this.

DVD Polizei
01-23-09, 09:55 PM
Didn't the majority of Palestinians vote for Hamas. I somehow don't picture Palestinians as thinking Hamas was going to be the Olive Branch to Israelis. Please. They knew what they were doing when they voted them in, and now they're being fucked by their own.

General Zod
01-23-09, 10:10 PM
Didn't the majority of Palestinians vote for Hamas. I somehow don't picture Palestinians as thinking Hamas was going to be the Olive Branch to Israelis. Please. They knew what they were doing when they voted them in, and now they're being fucked by their own.

However Arafat (and his party) didn't do squat to help his people while Hamas DID try to help them and in turn used that to get elected. Hamas has a main goal and that goal is to destroy Israel but they are smart enough to keep the people rallying behind them by continuing to help the citizens. Of course these citizens are completely expendable for propaganda purposes - but what choice do they have? Not really any.

wendersfan
01-24-09, 07:05 AM
However Arafat (and his party) didn't do squat to help his people while Hamas DID try to help them and in turn used that to get elected. Hamas has a main goal and that goal is to destroy Israel but they are smart enough to keep the people rallying behind them by continuing to help the citizens. Of course these citizens are completely expendable for propaganda purposes - but what choice do they have? Not really any.

:up:

Ky-Fi
01-24-09, 08:30 AM
However Arafat (and his party) didn't do squat to help his people while Hamas DID try to help them and in turn used that to get elected.

Well, perhaps in 2000's leading up to the Hamas election victory, but pre-Intifada, the Palestinians were doing pretty well by Fatah in economic terms. Looking at the big picture, I don't think it's completely accurate to paint Fatah as a completely corrupt failure of party, so bad that there was no choice for the Palestinians but to turn to Hamas:

*******

....One reason that the flood of foreign aid is unnecessary and quite possibly harmful is that the Palestinians have the income to pay more of their way in the world. The simple fact is that Palestinians are middle-income, not poor.

It is instructive to compare Palestinian incomes to those of other Arabs. According to the World Development Indicators 2002, in 2000, WBG income per person was $1,660. That was higher than in such middle-income Arab countries as Algeria ($1,580) or Egypt ($1,490). To be sure, Palestinian income has fallen as the violence has worsened. In its March 2002 report on the impact of the violence, the World Bank's estimate was that Palestinian income per person fell 19 percent in 2001, which would put the income at about $1,340. That is still above a country such as Morocco ($1,180 in 2000). The World Bank's estimate was that harsher closure could mean that Palestinian income may fall 20% more in 2002, which would put the per-capita income at $1,070. That is a truly catastrophic fall. The extent of the disaster can be seen in the fact that today, Palestinian income may be only 14% higher than in Syria, where per-capita income was $940 in 2000.

As the comparison above shows, the Palestinians pre-intifada were solidly middle-class in the Arab world: their income was above the average for all Arabs. With the disastrous violence of the last two years, Palestinians have slipped down to become lower-middle-class among the Arabs somewhere below Morocco but above Syria. This reality is bleak, but nothing like the end-of-the-world rhetoric used by some supporters of the Palestinians.

It is rare indeed to hear the hard truth that the real economic basket case among Israel's Arab neighbors is Syria, not the Palestinian territories. That fact is inconvenient for those who would blame Israel for all the ills of the region. The Assad family, not Israel, has been the leading economic disaster in the Levant. When they took over Syria 30 years ago, Syria had higher income per person than Egypt, but now Egypt's income is higher by half, despite Egypt's poor growth record during those three decades.

Further, the Syrian economy is not the only suffering Arab economy that begs comparison with the Palestinians. Even after the terrible blows they have brought upon their economy, the Palestinians remain head and shoulders above the poor Arab states with average incomes below $400 a year, namely Yemen ($370), Sudan ($310), and the fringe Arab League members Mauritania, Somalia, and Comoros. In their desperate condition of 2002, Palestinian income remains more than three times higher than that of Arabs in these poor countries. If the Arab League is concerned about poverty among the Arabs, it might think about mobilizing international attention to the plight of these people. In 2000, the combined foreign aid that went to all of these 43 million truly poor Arabs, living in five countries, was less than what the three million Palestinians received, though Palestinian income was then four times as high as that of the poor Arabs. The disparity has only grown as aid to WBG has mushroomed since September 2000.


http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=406

wendersfan
01-24-09, 08:58 AM
Well, perhaps in 2000's leading up to the Hamas election victory, but pre-Intifada, the Palestinians were doing pretty well by Fatah in economic terms. Looking at the big picture, I don't think it's completely accurate to paint Fatah as a completely corrupt failure of party, so bad that there was no choice for the Palestinians but to turn to Hamas:In terms of electoral politics, why should we expect the Palestinian voter to be different from the American one? It's always, "what have you done for me <i>lately</i>?"

Pharoh
01-24-09, 09:12 AM
In terms of electoral politics, why should we expect the Palestinian voter to be different from the American one? It's always, "what have you done for me <i>lately</i>?"


And I would submit that hamas had not done anything more for the Palestinians either. It is but a myth. (Though they did give out a few small parcels to the refugee camps).

Further analysis of the elections that brought hamas to power show a much much closer result than has been portrayed by the media. In fact, I submit that fatah lost the election more due to their own electoral incompetencies than any great economic or humanitarian efforts by hamas, and that they would have won if they ran fewer candidates.

Dr Mabuse
01-24-09, 09:20 AM
Here's one example of what Hamas does for the Palestinians. The mistake here was then having a Fatah banner up at a wedding party, and singing. 20 dead or wounded. Not a rare occurrence either. It just doesn't get any play in the western media for obvious reasons.

UAy0ZiMEEmw

Of course this goes on while the Hamas leader speaks of national unity and how to make the government all inclusive for the media. Those terrorists can't believe how stupid and simplistic the western media is, how easy is it for them to manipulate the message.

Here is Hamas being 'inclusive'. Yes those large crowd think Hamas is about 'social programs'... :lol:

Embedding disabled. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgCYkzLWFrk

Don't tell me the 'poor Palestinians' don't know exactly what they are supporting. People don't realize how silly they look trying to put forth the 'enlightened view' on this situation. Hamas wages war in the streets and kills people all over Gaza. There is no confusion about what Hamas is on the streets of Gaza, and that's exactly what the Palestinians want. Except the ones who are being killed by Hamas of course.

nBY_QMFrMdw

Ky-Fi
01-24-09, 09:23 AM
In terms of electoral politics, why should we expect the Palestinian voter to be different from the American one? It's always, "what have you done for me <i>lately</i>?"


True. It's logical that if their lives had been steadily improving prior to the election, it's unlikedly they would have opted for a different party.

DVD Polizei
01-24-09, 11:13 AM
However Arafat (and his party) didn't do squat to help his people while Hamas DID try to help them and in turn used that to get elected. Hamas has a main goal and that goal is to destroy Israel but they are smart enough to keep the people rallying behind them by continuing to help the citizens. Of course these citizens are completely expendable for propaganda purposes - but what choice do they have? Not really any.

Eh. The Palestinians have a choice. They just don't want to make a commitment. All they know is Israel is bad, and that's enough for their pathetic lives. If they had any amount of intelligence, they'd begin to re-educate their children that Israel is not bad, but merely different, and wouldn't be teaching them how to kill Israelis in their own schools.

Hamas and Arafat are just an excuse for their behavior. They always get played the victim because they are so "helpless" and it's bullshit. They chose to be used. They chose to hate. They chose to live in their shithole worthless lives.

Maybe someday a few Palestinians will rise above the stupidity and begin to forge a new destiny for their people.

The reason why Palestinians are where they are, is because they are not educated and every single leader who has come to power, has made sure they don't get educated. Why this is...it shouldn't be a surprise. The education they do get, is biased and doesn't provide any alternative possibilities. Their education--for what little they have--is one-sided and mandated. Those people are bad. We are good. And that's it. They don't want to think. Because to think requires CHANGE. They don't want to change. They are comfortable. It's suicidal cyclic behavior (literally, come to think of it).

The only way to change this group of people's thinking is to inject a form of Capitalism and Americanism into their way of life. It would be a bloody injection, but I think all human beings are capable of choosing freedom, entertainment, and happiness over hatred, paranoia, and self-explosion. We tried this in Iraq, but the method wasn't the way I would have wanted it.

I'm sure we have some Palestinians who want to break out of the typical mold, but they will need a lot of help.

eXcentris
01-24-09, 05:31 PM
Eh. The Palestinians have a choice. They just don't want to make a commitment. All they know is Israel is bad, and that's enough for their pathetic lives. If they had any amount of intelligence, they'd begin to re-educate their children that Israel is not bad, but merely different, and wouldn't be teaching them how to kill Israelis in their own schools.



"Israelis merely kill us, destroy our homes, harrass us and oppress us because they are "different" son, surely you're intelligent enough to understand that!"

And choosing "freedom", in occupied territories? Really?

OldDude
01-24-09, 05:38 PM
"Israelis merely kill us, destroy our homes, harrass us and oppress us because they are "different" son, surely you're intelligent enough to understand that!" :lol:

An alternative view being:
"Israelis merely kill us, destroy our homes, harrass us and oppress us because we shoot rockets at them and blow them up with suicide bombers. Son, surely you're intelligent enough to understand that!"

Do you REALLY believe that if the Palestinians STOPPED doing those things, Israelis would CONTINUE to destroy houses and kill Palestinians? The answer is quite important in understanding (and separating) cause and effect.

Who holds the key?

eXcentris
01-24-09, 05:57 PM
An alternative view being:
"Israelis merely kill us, destroy our homes, harrass us and oppress us because we shoot rockets at them and blow them up with suicide bombers. Son, surely you're intelligent enough to understand that!"


If you were a Palestinian you'd teach your son that the views of the Israeli right is the "truth"? One more time, I don't buy it.


Do you REALLY believe that if the Palestinians STOPPED doing those things, Israelis would CONTINUE to destroy houses and kill Palestinians? The answer is quite important in understanding (and separating) cause and effect.


I'm going to respond with another question. A lot of you have mentionned they wished Israel would "finish the job" this time around. Now ask yourself why the "divide and rule" approach seems to suit Israel just fine.

Who holds the key?

The answer is obvious to me. :)

Ky-Fi
01-24-09, 06:19 PM
I'm going to respond with another question. A lot of you have mentionned they wished Israel would "finish the job" this time around. Now ask yourself why the "divide and rule" approach seems to suit Israel just fine.



Oh, of course. With the absence of any influential percentage of true moderates, it's definitely preferable for the Israelis to sow and maintain divisions among the Palestinians as opposed to seeing them all united under a banner of "destroy Israel". I think that's just rational military strategy.

OldDude
01-24-09, 06:28 PM
I'm going to respond with another question. A lot of you have mentionned they wished Israel would "finish the job" this time around. Now ask yourself why the "divide and rule" approach seems to suit Israel just fine.

Shit! The Israelis are really aliens. They are like that Star Trek species that feeds on the negative energy of anger and rage and hatred. I don't know why I didn't see it before. :lol:

Honestly, I don't know if they have some preference for the status quo or succumb to world (and/or US) pressure.

eXcentris
01-24-09, 06:35 PM
Oh, of course. With the absence of any influential percentage of true moderates, it's definitely preferable for the Israelis to sow and maintain divisions among the Palestinians as opposed to seeing them all united under a banner of "destroy Israel". I think that's just rational military strategy.

That's one point of view. Mine is that Israel has absolutely no interest in seing united, peaceful, loving, flower growing, hippie Palestinians. The Israeli right, kept in power by this divide and rule strategy (you just watch the upcoming election), have absolutely no interest in a Palestinian state.

Note: Israel doesn't give a hoot about world/US pressure.

Ky-Fi
01-24-09, 06:47 PM
Note: Israel doesn't give a hoot about world/US pressure.

Why should they? Who's the arbiter of human rights and fairness who would give them a fair shot? Russia? China? Iran? The Arab world? Zimbabwe? Angola? Venezeula? Cuba? All of them together in the UN?

Oh, of course there's the enlightened Western Europeans---surely history has proven they would never treat the jews with anything but impartial fairness.

classicman2
01-24-09, 08:14 PM
That's one point of view. Mine is that Israel has absolutely no interest in seing united, peaceful, loving, flower growing, hippie Palestinians. The Israeli right, kept in power by this divide and rule strategy (you just watch the upcoming election), have absolutely no interest in a Palestinian state.

Note: Israel doesn't give a hoot about world/US pressure.

Do you also believe that the Palestinians want to see an end of the Jewish State?

eXcentris
01-24-09, 08:39 PM
Do you also believe that the Palestinians want to see an end of the Jewish State?

Hamas, certainly. All "Palestinians"? Certainly not. Much like not all Israelis are opposed to a Palestinian state.

Burnt Thru
01-24-09, 09:13 PM
Do you REALLY believe that if the Palestinians STOPPED doing those things, Israelis would CONTINUE to destroy houses and kill Palestinians? The answer is quite important in understanding (and separating) cause and effect.
if israel allowed palestine to function as a society do you really think many palestinians would want to blow themselves up? i find it reassuring that obama has already called for israel to allow some of this to start happening. as to thinking that all rocket attacks must stop before anything else can happen, that's just foolish. does america have total control over it's population? does any country? particularly one where the infrastructure has been blasted time and again. criminals and murderers exist in every society, and always will. the knack is to seperate them from the general population, rather than to make them into heros.

Ky-Fi
01-24-09, 09:22 PM
. does america have total control over it's population? does any country?

Growing up on the Canadian border, I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that if our little town had been lobbing rockets across the border into Cornwall, Ontario, then yes, the US authorities would have been able to discover who was doing it, and to stop it permanently. I'm dubious that the situation is much different in the UK.

And if a country ISN"T able to stop that (like Pakistan with regards to India), the reality is that they're going to be permanently teetering on the brink of war.

classicman2
01-24-09, 09:22 PM
Obama, IMO, made the wrong choice for Middle East Envoy in naming George Mitchell. Mitchell is a nice guy, but there was much better choice who actually had previously served in that capacity and knew the area very well - Dennis Ross.

Pharoh
01-24-09, 09:44 PM
if israel allowed palestine to function as a society do you really think many palestinians would want to blow themselves up? i find it reassuring that obama has already called for israel to allow some of this to start happening. as to thinking that all rocket attacks must stop before anything else can happen, that's just foolish. does america have total control over it's population? does any country? particularly one where the infrastructure has been blasted time and again. criminals and murderers exist in every society, and always will. the knack is to seperate them from the general population, rather than to make them into heros.

:lol:

The general populace is firing rockets? You are kidding, aren't you?

DVD Polizei
01-24-09, 10:18 PM
"Israelis merely kill us, destroy our homes, harrass us and oppress us because they are "different" son, surely you're intelligent enough to understand that!"

And choosing "freedom", in occupied territories? Really?

It's education like yours which is furthering the conflict into future generations. Simply portray yourself as a victim, and whatever you do to your enemy is legitimate. Amazingly, you'll find yourself constantly under attack. Now, why is this, I ask.

Occupied territories? Palestinians had Gaza but they fucked that up rather quickly, now didn't they. If they chose to concentrate on creating a self-sufficient community which could actually do business with their neighbors, they might find power and control can actually be had without pressing a single button on an explosive vest trigger.

eXcentris
01-25-09, 12:24 AM
It's education like yours which is furthering the conflict into future generations. Simply portray yourself as a victim, and whatever you do to your enemy is legitimate. Amazingly, you'll find yourself constantly under attack. Now, why is this, I ask.


Education like mine? What the heck does that mean? Do you seriously believe it's as simple as Palestinians educating their children that Israelis aren't so bad after all, totally forgetting history, deep seated resentment and hatred, and what goes on around them? If someone destroyed your home, killed your neighbors, friends or members of you're family, you would teach your children that it's not so bad? That if we change our ways, they are going to stop? That it's all our fault? Again, I don't believe it.

It's hard to change the attitudes and mindsets of people in ideal conditions. In the conditions Palestinians face on a daily basis, it's darn near impossible.


Occupied territories? Palestinians had Gaza but they fucked that up rather quickly, now didn't they. If they chose to concentrate on creating a self-sufficient community which could actually do business with their neighbors, they might find power and control can actually be had without pressing a single button on an explosive vest trigger.

Even after the pullout, the IDF continued to control all access to Gaza essentially turning it into an open-air prison. Sure it looked good to withdraw 8,000 settlers and "give Gaza back" but in the following year, 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank. And the ultimate goal is to incorporate the main settlements on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Don't fool yourself into thinking that "giving Gaza back" was a gesture towards peace. This has always been, and will always be about land.

eXcentris
01-25-09, 12:49 AM
Let me give you an example about education in ideal conditions:

The Hand in Hand project. These are bilingual schools (there are 4 or 5 of them) where Jewish and Arab children learn together. Each class has two teachers, one Arab and one Jewish. On the very touchy subject of history, each teacher is allowed to teach their point of view. Lot's of questions are raised of course, but the children get along fine. In fact, the main problem are the parents and the people outside the school where prejudice and stereotypes remain. These schools only go up to the 9th grade at this time. One teacher states:


"The insight and understanding gained in the children’s years together at the Hand in Hand school will most likely not withstand the mood of alienation and inequality in the overall atmosphere of Israel today: the stereotypes, prejudices and fears overcome as individuals in the years of schooling will probably not help in the overal society.“Not,” she says sagely, but with sorrow, “in this generation”.


Note that we're talking about Israeli arabs and jews here. And you think that simply educating Palestinian children that Israelis are not so bad is not only possible, but would work?

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 07:20 AM
:lol:

The general populace is firing rockets? You are kidding, aren't you?

do you have any comprehention of how low tech these "rockets" are, or of how easy it is to build one? yes, terrorists are just members of the general population, as difficult as that is to comprehend for some people.

OldDude
01-25-09, 07:25 AM
if israel allowed palestine to function as a society do you really think many palestinians would want to blow themselves up? i find it reassuring that obama has already called for israel to allow some of this to start happening. as to thinking that all rocket attacks must stop before anything else can happen, that's just foolish. does america have total control over it's population? does any country? particularly one where the infrastructure has been blasted time and again. criminals and murderers exist in every society, and always will. the knack is to seperate them from the general population, rather than to make them into heros.

I'd be happy if they tried and imprisoned them for attempted murder (execute them if they succeeded in murdering anybody). I don't view a parade in the street honoring them as the level of punishment that is appropriate. However, I doubt killing an Israeli is a criminal act in Gaza.

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 07:28 AM
Occupied territories? Palestinians had Gaza but they fucked that up rather quickly, now didn't they. If they chose to concentrate on creating a self-sufficient community which could actually do business with their neighbors, they might find power and control can actually be had without pressing a single button on an explosive vest trigger.
how could gaza trade with anyone given the israeli blockade around it? with most of the buildings required for a civil society (such as police stations and jails) destroyed by israeli missiles it's also a little difficult to imagine how your wishful scenario could possibly have occured.

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 07:31 AM
I'd be happy if they tried and imprisoned them for attempted murder (execute them if they succeeded in murdering anybody). I don't view a parade in the street honoring them as the level of punishment that is appropriate. However, I doubt killing an Israeli is a criminal act in Gaza.
this is exactly the situation we need to get to in the palestinian territories. israels actions are not encouraging this seperation of terrorists from the general population, infact they are cementing the nutters as heros to the ordinary people.

one good step towards this situation would be for israel to stop bombing palestinian prisons and police stations. if law and order is really their wish..

classicman2
01-25-09, 07:52 AM
Therefore, if Israel stops whatever you think they should stop, the Palestinians will separate themselves from the terrorists?

One good thing would be if the Palestinians could forego firing rockets into Israel for an extended period.

Dr Mabuse
01-25-09, 08:21 AM
:lol:

The general populace is firing rockets? You are kidding, aren't you?

:lol:

No he's serious, but you kinda get used to the 'imagination express' after a few posts.

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 09:21 AM
Therefore, if Israel stops whatever you think they should stop, the Palestinians will separate themselves from the terrorists?

One good thing would be if the Palestinians could forego firing rockets into Israel for an extended period.
that would be nice, but i'm not sure how realistic it is as a precondition to negotiation. certainly the israelis didn't think it was crucial before the initial gaza withdrawl 3 years back. is it likely that all murders will stop in america for a few months or years? i doubt the same sorts in palestine will decide to stop all their murders either. look at the northern ireland situation. for years we had hardline governments who refused to negotiate until all violence had stopped and the ira had disarmed. then we woke up to reality and decided to negotiate anyway, despite some factions and splinters of the ira fighting on. a similar situation is almost certain to occur. expecting all rocket attacks to stop is hoping for the nigh on impossible.

classicman2
01-25-09, 09:26 AM
Your position is like The Oslo Accords. Israel is the side that must make all the concessions.

Can we stop the North Ireland references. They're not the same - they're not even that similar.

DVD Polizei
01-25-09, 09:54 AM
Do you seriously believe it's as simple as Palestinians educating their children that Israelis aren't so bad after all, totally forgetting history, deep seated resentment and hatred, and what goes on around them?

Yes, it is that easy. We did it. Others can, too.

If someone destroyed your home, killed your neighbors, friends or members of you're family, you would teach your children that it's not so bad? That if we change our ways, they are going to stop? That it's all our fault? Again, I don't believe it.

Actually, somebody DID kill my neighbors, my friends, some of my family, quite recently. I'm part Indian (I don't prefer Native American as it sounds retarded and if you think about it, the term is a paradox). I know all too well about people being rounded up and shot. I also know about motherfuckers taking my goddamn land. And fuck yeah, I'm pissed off.

But I don't strap bombs to myself and try to kill as many "white folk" as I can, nor do I teach those around me that White people are evil and should be killed.

So, there you have it.

It's hard to change the attitudes and mindsets of people in ideal conditions. In the conditions Palestinians face on a daily basis, it's darn near impossible.

Well, there you have it folks. Like I said, some people continue to portray Palestinians as victims. Helpless souls who can't lift a finger for themselves.

But they sure manage to express a shitload of energy against Israelis. Just imagine if they could use that energy to improve their own infrastructure.

Even after the pullout, the IDF continued to control all access to Gaza essentially turning it into an open-air prison. Sure it looked good to withdraw 8,000 settlers and "give Gaza back" but in the following year, 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank. And the ultimate goal is to incorporate the main settlements on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Don't fool yourself into thinking that "giving Gaza back" was a gesture towards peace. This has always been, and will always be about land.

I cannot believe you actually are under the impression Israel gave Gaza up...just in order to take it back. I suppose the IDF "baited" all those Hamas militants and Palestinians to shoot rockets at them.

My, the IDF is a smarmy bunch of guys and gals, aren't they!

Your logic is unfortunately influenced by your impression that a group of people cannot help themselves.

If you can't see what concessions Israelis have made over the years--at many Israeli citizens' own expense by the way--then it's no wonder Palestinians are continually portrayed as victims, and this war will continue on.

What more do you want from Israelis? You want them all to leave? Relocate? Is that your solution? Because you and many others elude to this but don't quite say it.

So, now that I've established your own solution for the conflict, just where are we going to put Israelis?

arminius
01-25-09, 10:36 AM
Yes, it is that easy. We did it. Others can, too.



Actually, somebody DID kill my neighbors, my friends, some of my family, quite recently. I'm part Indian (I don't prefer Native American as it sounds retarded and if you think about it, the term is a paradox). I know all too well about people being rounded up and shot. I also know about motherfuckers taking my goddamn land. And fuck yeah, I'm pissed off.

But I don't strap bombs to myself and try to kill as many "white folk" as I can, nor do I teach those around me that White people are evil and should be killed.

So, there you have it.



Well, there you have it folks. Like I said, some people continue to portray Palestinians as victims. Helpless souls who can't lift a finger for themselves.

But they sure manage to express a shitload of energy against Israelis. Just imagine if they could use that energy to improve their own infrastructure.



I cannot believe you actually are under the impression Israel gave Gaza up...just in order to take it back. I suppose the IDF "baited" all those Hamas militants and Palestinians to shoot rockets at them.

My, the IDF is a smarmy bunch of guys and gals, aren't they!

Your logic is unfortunately influenced by your impression that a group of people cannot help themselves.

If you can't see what concessions Israelis have made over the years--at many Israeli citizens' own expense by the way--then it's no wonder Palestinians are continually portrayed as victims, and this war will continue on.

What more do you want from Israelis? You want them all to leave? Relocate? Is that your solution? Because you and many others elude to this but don't quite say it.

So, now that I've established your own solution for the conflict, just where are we going to put Israelis?
In all the wars after 1945 I believe that Israel has earned the right to exist where it is. They were able to take and hold what the other peoples in the area could not. In every action the IDF was outnumbered by the arab armies around it. And yet they always came out on top. In a stand up fight the others in that area have always come up short. So they end up fighting with inaccurate rockets fired from civilian areas or their idea of a (not too) smart bomb. Strapping explosives to a moran and telling them where to blow up. For whatever reason, the arab armies around Israel are lousy warriors. But they are somewhat effective against civilians. But the only way this is effective is to get the UN countries to attack Israel everytime Israel is attacked. Maybe the next time a full blown war breaks out, the UN should just let the IDF go for broke instead of passing a resolution to stop them. They can then take the countries around them over and sell them to the highest bidder.

Ky-Fi
01-25-09, 11:01 AM
is it likely that all murders will stop in america for a few months or years? i doubt the same sorts in palestine will decide to stop all their murders either.

Even Palestinian negotiators hammering out the details of Oslo and other agreements never went so far as to dismiss paramilitary activities as simply "unavoidable common crime". They acknowledged that these various groups had to be disarmed, and made vows (sincerly or not) to deal with them. You're really going off the deep end here.

And in regards to paramilitary groups not under government control, the Israelis also had Irgun. Why aren't they still around and attacking Arabs at will?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair

Ky-Fi
01-25-09, 11:32 AM
Let me give you an example about education in ideal conditions:

The Hand in Hand project. These are bilingual schools (there are 4 or 5 of them) where Jewish and Arab children learn together. Each class has two teachers, one Arab and one Jewish. On the very touchy subject of history, each teacher is allowed to teach their point of view. Lot's of questions are raised of course, but the children get along fine. In fact, the main problem are the parents and the people outside the school where prejudice and stereotypes remain. These schools only go up to the 9th grade at this time. One teacher states:


"The insight and understanding gained in the children’s years together at the Hand in Hand school will most likely not withstand the mood of alienation and inequality in the overall atmosphere of Israel today: the stereotypes, prejudices and fears overcome as individuals in the years of schooling will probably not help in the overal society.“Not,” she says sagely, but with sorrow, “in this generation”.


Note that we're talking about Israeli arabs and jews here. And you think that simply educating Palestinian children that Israelis are not so bad is not only possible, but would work?

So there's some degree of prejudice by Israelis citizens against Arab CITIZENS of Israel. Fair enough. How about the Jews living under the Palestinian authority. What are those communities like? How do they vote in the Palestinian elections? How do their Jewish political parties do in the Palestinian elections? Do those communities face any type of prejudice from their Arab neighbors?

Oh, that's right---there aren't any Jews there.

Birrman54
01-25-09, 12:37 PM
So there's some degree of prejudice by Israelis citizens against Arab CITIZENS of Israel. Fair enough. How about the Jews living under the Palestinian authority. What are those communities like? How do they vote in the Palestinian elections? How do their Jewish political parties do in the Palestinian elections? Do those communities face any type of prejudice from their Arab neighbors?

Oh, that's right---there aren't any Jews there.

To be fair, we should also compare it to the lifestyles of jewish communities in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and others.

Oh wait...

eXcentris
01-25-09, 03:06 PM
Actually, somebody DID kill my neighbors, my friends, some of my family, quite recently. I'm part Indian (I don't prefer Native American as it sounds retarded and if you think about it, the term is a paradox). I know all too well about people being rounded up and shot. I also know about motherfuckers taking my goddamn land. And fuck yeah, I'm pissed off.

But I don't strap bombs to myself and try to kill as many "white folk" as I can, nor do I teach those around me that White people are evil and should be killed.


And how many friggin generations ago was that exactly? Do you currently live under these conditions where your house gets demolished and people around you killed? Don't be silly.

Did you read my next post about education under ideal conditions? Even after the fighting stops, even after a Palestinian state is established, it will take generations to change people's mindsets.


I cannot believe you actually are under the impression Israel gave Gaza up...just in order to take it back. I suppose the IDF "baited" all those Hamas militants and Palestinians to shoot rockets at them.


Huh? Please point out where I said that Israel gave Gaza up in order to take it back?


Your logic is unfortunately influenced by your impression that a group of people cannot help themselves.


And your logic is one of a middle class American brainwashed by the "American Dream" fallacy that anyone can easily change and become happy and successfull regardless of what shit they are in.

This isn't America. Read my post about the Hand in Hand project again.


What more do you want from Israelis? You want them all to leave? Relocate? Is that your solution? Because you and many others elude to this but don't quite say it.

So, now that I've established your own solution for the conflict, just where are we going to put Israelis?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I don't want Israel to relocate. And I don't want to exterminate Palestinians either. It's obvious that a solution will never come from the parties involved. It will have to be imposed on them.

eXcentris
01-25-09, 03:13 PM
So there's some degree of prejudice by Israelis citizens against Arab CITIZENS of Israel. Fair enough. How about the Jews living under the Palestinian authority. What are those communities like? How do they vote in the Palestinian elections? How do their Jewish political parties do in the Palestinian elections? Do those communities face any type of prejudice from their Arab neighbors?

Oh, that's right---there aren't any Jews there.

Huh? And your point is?

That post was in reply to Polizei's silly argument that it would be easy for Palestinians to change their views thru proper education. Well even Israeli Arabs and Jews going to the same school have a hard time doing it.

Ky-Fi
01-25-09, 03:22 PM
Huh? And your point is?

That post was in reply to Polizei's silly argument that it would be easy for Palestinians to change their views thru proper education. Well even Israeli Arabs and Jews going to the same school have a hard time doing it.

The difficulties in overcoming hatred are indeed steep, but it's apparently lost on you that there's no Palestinian version of the "Hand in Hand" schools, and/or you don't see that as a relevant and telling factor in the current situation.

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 03:24 PM
Even Palestinian negotiators hammering out the details of Oslo and other agreements never went so far as to dismiss paramilitary activities as simply "unavoidable common crime". They acknowledged that these various groups had to be disarmed, and made vows (sincerly or not) to deal with them. You're really going off the deep end here.
of course they should be disarmed, but it's naive in the extreme to believe it will be total or that it must be a precondition for an agreement. you're misreading my posts, btw, if you believe i think terrorism is common crime. but those involved in it are also criminals, as has been shown recently in northern ireland. the real ira is little more than a mob outfit these days.

And in regards to paramilitary groups not under government control, the Israelis also had Irgun. Why aren't they still around and attacking Arabs at will?
probably because they won. though the more telling fact is that the former leader of the irgun went on to become a leader of israel as well. talk about terrorists being voted into power by populations.. does that mean the israeli population condones terrorism?

Burnt Thru
01-25-09, 03:29 PM
Your position is like The Oslo Accords. Israel is the side that must make all the concessions.
what do palestinians have to concede?? the terrorists have their violence to give up, but the average man in the street has nothing to give to israel that they don't already have. the opposite is not true.

Can we stop the North Ireland references. They're not the same - they're not even that similar.
the situations are remarkably similar. if you feel otherwise then please elucidate. it is reasurring that obama is sending George Mitchell as special envoy to the middle east. lets hope he can work some more majik.

Ky-Fi
01-25-09, 03:37 PM
probably because they won. though the more telling fact is that the former leader of the irgun went on to become a leader of israel as well. talk about terrorists being voted into power by populations.. does that mean the israeli population condones terrorism?

Well, IMO one of the biggest impediments to a peace deal, putting aside which side one's sympathies lie on, is that it's been virtually impossible for the Palestinians to actually deliver things that they agree to, because they haven't been willing to do the nasty things to consolidate power under one government. I'm sure it was not that pleasant for the IDF to get in a firefight with the Irgun members, and to kill a bunch of their own countrymen and arrest the others. But they understood that the official government of Israel needed a "monopoly of violence" under civilian leadership. This is a core principle of every single democratic state. The Palestinians haven't done that, so even in the past when Fatah made a deal, they hadn't disarmed Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and thus they couldn't really live up to their peace agreements. Regardless of any of the issues, or any of the points of contention, I don't see how you could have any peace deal until the Palestinians do this.

eXcentris
01-25-09, 03:50 PM
The difficulties in overcoming hatred are indeed steep, but it's apparently lost on you that there's no Palestinian version of the "Hand in Hand" schools, and/or you don't see that as a relevant and telling factor in the current situation.

They could barely set these schools up in somewhat ideal conditions and your point is why don't the Palestinians have such schools? That's not only irrelevant, it's downright silly.

Ky-Fi
01-25-09, 03:58 PM
They could barely set these schools up in somewhat ideal conditions and your point is why don't the Palestinians have such schools? That's not only irrelevant, it's downright silly.

Oh...go enjoy your 4 Hab starters to the all-star game via the fruits of your ballot-stuffing! :lol:

VinVega
01-25-09, 04:13 PM
:lol:

No he's serious, but you kinda get used to the 'imagination express' after a few posts.
mod note - Let's keep the conversation focused about the topic at hand and not about any specific poster. Thank you.

classicman2
01-25-09, 06:00 PM
what do palestinians have to concede?? the terrorists have their violence to give up, but the average man in the street has nothing to give to israel that they don't already have. the opposite is not true.


the situations are remarkably similar. if you feel otherwise then please elucidate. it is reasurring that obama is sending George Mitchell as special envoy to the middle east. lets hope he can work some more majik.

1. I don't suppose it's occurred to you that the average man in the street might stop his support of Hamas.

2. No. In Northern Ireland you didn't have an attempt to annihilate a 'people.' You have that in Israel.

DVD Polizei
01-25-09, 10:06 PM
And how many friggin generations ago was that exactly? Do you currently live under these conditions where your house gets demolished and people around you killed? Don't be silly.

Do I have to be living under these conditions? We have Palestinians living here in the US, living quite well, thank-you, and yet they seem to have the same "connection" to their brothers over next to Israel.

What's the difference, eXcentris.

You don't have to be currently getting your house demolished, in order to experience the pain.

Palestinians in the US. Israelis in the US. Myself in the US. We experience pain at times because of our history and conflict. However, I choose NOT to wage war on my brothers who live around me, whether they be Israeli, Palestinian, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, or otherwise.

You're trying to minimize my own ancestry. Well, that failed. In fact, I think you would minimize even the Holocaust and several other groups of people who were killed throught human history, just so the Palestinians could be at the top of your Victims List, thereby allowing them any justified retaliation they deem necessary.

I'd like to hear your solution to the "Israeli Problem". You minimize my own heritage and its persecution, while uplifting the Palestinians. You don't directly comment about what you want to have happen to all the Israelis. You just simply comment Palestinians are in the right, while Israel is wrong.

I've given you my solution. Now, give yours. I think your solution is much more dire, isn't it. You probably want the entire population of Israel relocated don't you.

eXcentris
01-26-09, 10:07 AM
Do I have to be living under these conditions? We have Palestinians living here in the US, living quite well, thank-you, and yet they seem to have the same "connection" to their brothers over next to Israel.

What's the difference, eXcentris.


The difference is that you/they (Palestinians in the US) are not currently living in the middle of this conflict. How hard is that to understand? You keep using this "but they can change!" argument regardless of history, context and environment. You're comparing Palestinians living in the US to Palestinians living in the Middle East. You're comparing people who see members of their family, friends, neighbors getting killed NOW to your heritage/events that happened hundreds of years ago. And you really don't realize how silly that is? The irony here is that all you are doing is proving my point: One, under better conditions/environment people can change. Two, it takes generations for ressentment to wane and for wounds to heal.


You don't have to be currently getting your house demolished, in order to experience the pain.


No but if I demolished your house and killed your children yesterday, I'm pretty sure your level of pain and hatred would be much higher than if my grandfather did it 60 years ago now woudn't it? (Well my grandfather could not have killed your children 60 years ago but you get the point)


Palestinians in the US. Israelis in the US. Myself in the US. We experience pain at times because of our history and conflict. However, I choose NOT to wage war on my brothers who live around me, whether they be Israeli, Palestinian, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, or otherwise.


Same argument, same response...


You're trying to minimize my own ancestry. Well, that failed. In fact, I think you would minimize even the Holocaust and several other groups of people who were killed throught human history, just so the Palestinians could be at the top of your Victims List, thereby allowing them any justified retaliation they deem necessary.


Oh brother... This is getting more futile and ridiculous by the minute...


I'd like to hear your solution to the "Israeli Problem". You minimize my own heritage and its persecution, while uplifting the Palestinians. You don't directly comment about what you want to have happen to all the Israelis. You just simply comment Palestinians are in the right, while Israel is wrong.


Actually I think that Israel and the Arab states have been using the Palestinians as pawns for decades. But if you absolutely want to reduce this to strictly a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians then, and although the Palestinians are not entirely blameless, the "blame scale" tips towards Israel because they hold the big end of the stick and have been manipulating this conflict for decades.


I've given you my solution. Now, give yours. I think your solution is much more dire, isn't it. You probably want the entire population of Israel relocated don't you.

Yes, I want them to be relocated to New Jersey. I'm sure they'll be able to adapt and change since it's so easy...

Th0r S1mpson
01-26-09, 10:14 AM
One, under better conditions/environment people can change. Two, it takes generations for ressentment to wane and for wounds to heal.

Have we got a President for them!

Locomocha
01-28-09, 02:10 AM
In all the wars after 1945 I believe that Israel has earned the right to exist where it is. They were able to take and hold what the other peoples in the area could not. In every action the IDF was outnumbered by the arab armies around it. And yet they always came out on top. In a stand up fight the others in that area have always come up short. So they end up fighting with inaccurate rockets fired from civilian areas or their idea of a (not too) smart bomb. Strapping explosives to a moran and telling them where to blow up. For whatever reason, the arab armies around Israel are lousy warriors. But they are somewhat effective against civilians. But the only way this is effective is to get the UN countries to attack Israel everytime Israel is attacked. Maybe the next time a full blown war breaks out, the UN should just let the IDF go for broke instead of passing a resolution to stop them. They can then take the countries around them over and sell them to the highest bidder.

Israel's military was seeded by veterans of the world wars from around the globe, provided with first rate training and equipment from countries like the U.S., and has been a well funded standing army from day one that counts on and receives substantial external support. The surrounding arab armies often aren't even regular forces, have poor equipment and training, little outside support, and no military tradition to speak of. Sure, the russians cozy up to Iran now and then, but not even other arabs are very fond of Palestinians. It's pretty obvious why the IDF can dominate any other military force in the region in conventional actions, and if you're instead suggesting the disparity is due to some inherent inferiority of Arabs, you're out of line.

As for "letting the IDF go for broke"... If you're suggesting genocide or, alternatively, a tightly controlled gulag, I would hope the Israeli's, of all people, know better. Then again, they've already walled Gaza in like it was a Warsaw ghetto.

Burnt Thru
01-28-09, 10:17 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4752349n

depressing stuff..

General Zod
01-30-09, 04:41 PM
As I've posted countless times already about the tactics Hamas uses...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233050211857&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Gaza victims describe human shield use

Members of a Gaza family whose farm was turned into a "fortress" by Hamas fighters have reported that they were helpless to stop Hamas from using them as human shields.

They told the official Palestinian Authority daily newspaper that for years Hamas had used their property and homes as military installations from which the group would launch rockets into Israel, dig tunnels and store arms. According to the victims, those who tried to object were shot in the legs by Hamas operatives.

Palestinian Media Watch quoted the official Palestinian Authority daily, Al-Hayat al-Jadida as reporting on January 27, "The Abd Rabbo family kept quiet while Hamas fighters turned their farm in the Gaza strip into a fortress. Right now they are waiting for the aid promised by the [Hamas] movement after Israel bombed the farm and turned it into ruins."

According to the report, the hill on which the Abd Rabbo family lives overlooks Sderot, making it an ideal military position for Hamas fighters.

The Abd Rabbo family members emphasized to the paper that they were not Hamas activists and that they were still loyal to the Fatah movement, but that they had been unable to prevent the armed squads from entering their neighborhood at night.

JasonF
02-01-09, 11:06 AM
More rocket attacks from Palestinian terrorists yesterday. Israel has not responded, other than to say that if the rocket attacks don't stop, they will respond.

classicman2
02-01-09, 12:13 PM
A small rocket that didn't explode was shown today on television. It landed between 2 kindergarten classes.

wishbone
02-01-09, 12:34 PM
A small rocket that didn't explode was shown today on television. It landed between 2 kindergarten classes.excerpt

Israel was holding to its position that "if firing continues against residents of the south, there would be a sharp Israeli response that would be disproportionate," Olmert vowed at the beginning of the weekly Cabinet meeting. "We will not go back to the rules of the game that the terrorist organizations tried to dictate in the past. ... We will act according to new rules that will ensure that we are not dragged into an unending shooting war on the southern border."

One of the mortars landed near a kindergarten in the western Negev, but there were no injuries in that attack or the others, police said.http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/01/israel.rockets/index.html

So is Hamas serious about the cease fire agreement or will they claim this was a rogue incident independent of their authority?

General Zod
02-01-09, 01:12 PM
They will wait for Israel to respond and then claim Israel broke the cease fire, just like last time, and they rest of the world will agree. That's why I don't know why Israel bothers to hold back.. I'd just let loose each and everytime a "rogue" missile gets fired into their territory.

eXcentris
02-01-09, 01:50 PM
They will wait for Israel to respond and then claim Israel broke the cease fire, just like last time, and they rest of the world will agree.

Israel did break the cease-fire the last time. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things.

DVD Polizei
02-01-09, 03:59 PM
And why did they do that. Were they specifically targeting civilians for no particular reason than to fulfill a really stupid belief spoken from a really stupid bearded man?

Locomocha
02-01-09, 04:13 PM
Usually the cycles take a little bit longer to go around than this particular one, but, here we are again. I suppose the optimists are thinking that, for sure, this time it will be different if Israel does the exact same thing they've done every time before. Yeah. Right.

arminius
02-01-09, 05:00 PM
Israel's military was seeded by veterans of the world wars from around the globe, provided with first rate training and equipment from countries like the U.S., and has been a well funded standing army from day one that counts on and receives substantial external support. The surrounding arab armies often aren't even regular forces, have poor equipment and training, little outside support, and no military tradition to speak of. Sure, the russians cozy up to Iran now and then, but not even other arabs are very fond of Palestinians. It's pretty obvious why the IDF can dominate any other military force in the region in conventional actions, and if you're instead suggesting the disparity is due to some inherent inferiority of Arabs, you're out of line.

As for "letting the IDF go for broke"... If you're suggesting genocide or, alternatively, a tightly controlled gulag, I would hope the Israeli's, of all people, know better. Then again, they've already walled Gaza in like it was a Warsaw ghetto.

Your first point, no. At the start they were not well funded or equipped. They were even using ex Luftwaffe ME-109s. They eventually received far more support from the US and the Arab states had the same or greater support from the Soviet Onion. The Arab states, and no Iran is not one of them, were well equipped and trained in soviet doctrine. What they did not have and what counts for far more is training, leadership and a cause. There is no inherent inferiority in any people.

The second point is to fight a war to its conclusion ala WWII. No genocide or gulag, just fight until the other power is defeated. The IDF has proven time and again that they and Israel deserve to exist. Something which the losers in the area can't wrap their heads around. It is only the constant interdiction of the UN that has saved those countries. I wonder what would have or would happen if they emerged victorious. Would the UN step in to save Israel? I wonder.

General Zod
02-01-09, 07:10 PM
Israel did break the cease-fire the last time. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things.

Hamas had fired 60 mortars into southern Israel after the previous cease-fire was announced. So, if Israel responds after their enemy breaks the cease-fire 60 times it is determined that they broke the cease fire? Please..

I mean I know you don't like Israel but at least try to be a little bit objective.

Locomocha
02-01-09, 07:43 PM
The second point is to fight a war to its conclusion ala WWII. No genocide or gulag, just fight until the other power is defeated.

I think what you need to do is to define fighting a war to its conclusion with Hamas in Gaza. There are no conventional Hamas forces to defeat. Indeed, if Hamas started building tanks or artillery the IDF would blow them up before they were complete. In a WWII sense, Hamas is completely and totally defeated.

Now, let's compare what was done with the Germans after WWII. Did the allies round them up into walled off ghettos? Did they attempt to cut all trade into and out of Germany off? Did they attempt to bring to justice, not just a few of the worst, but every last war criminal? These acts would not only have been impractical, but excessively punitive. The remaining German population would have been too troublesome if they had been attempted.

Israel does do these things and more. Gaza is effectively a gulag already. Palestinian civilians now smuggle basic goods into Gaza because they're cheaper than what little Israel lets through their borders legally. (Good luck finding rocket parts in that much underground traffic!) The IDF preemptively kills Hamas politicians before they have a chance to commit acts of terror. The IDF destroys homes, schools, etc. if they even suspect militants are using it. (Hey, it's all good if you drop leaflets in advance!) U.S. forces would probably be combating German terrorists today had they treated the Germans this way after WWII.

The simple fact is that Hamas cannot be defeated by military action because they're something different than a military force. Whenever the IDF moves into Gaza and puts enough pressure on them, Hamas just turns civilian until the IDF pulls out. Then they declare victory and go dig up some rocket caches, as we have just seen. Fighting Hamas is really more like fighting an ideology.

I'm not saying Israel needs to just pull out and leave Gaza to its own devices until they get bored of launching rockets. That's one way to do it, but far from the best. If you really want to follow the WWII example, Israel should occupy and govern Gaza, not with the IDF, but with police forces and focus on rebuilding and winning support of Palestinians. You can bet that some people will scream bloody murder if Israel annexes Gaza back in this manner, but it's a lot better than sitting on the border playing whack-a-mole.

eXcentris
02-01-09, 10:19 PM
Hamas had fired 60 mortars into southern Israel after the previous cease-fire was announced. So, if Israel responds after their enemy breaks the cease-fire 60 times it is determined that they broke the cease fire? Please..

I mean I know you don't like Israel but at least try to be a little bit objective.

Objective? Did you bother researching this at all or are you just regurgitating whatever rhetoric suits your views?

It was initially reported that Hamas broke the cease-fire (guess by whom...). Then the media and independent sources started investigating and reported that it was Israel that broke the 4 month cease-fire last November (CNN, The Economist and several newspapers internationally). Then Israel argued that it was... well... hmmm... for "security reasons".

Google it.

classicman2
02-04-09, 08:54 AM
A U.N. spokesman says Hamas police in Gaza have seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents.

wishbone
02-04-09, 09:50 AM
A U.N. spokesman says Hamas police in Gaza have seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents.They want to hand the items out to the people and show them that they care -- kinda like the mob.

Birrman54
02-04-09, 04:00 PM
I'm not saying Israel needs to just pull out and leave Gaza to its own devices until they get bored of launching rockets. That's one way to do it, but far from the best. If you really want to follow the WWII example, Israel should occupy and govern Gaza, not with the IDF, but with police forces and focus on rebuilding and winning support of Palestinians. You can bet that some people will scream bloody murder if Israel annexes Gaza back in this manner, but it's a lot better than sitting on the border playing whack-a-mole.

Are you serious? What do you think the international community would say if Israel straight up OCCUPIED Gaza for an extended period. How do you think Hamas loyalists would respond to that infringement on Palestinian autonomy?

You'd be back to bombers in pizza parlors.

moorehed
02-05-09, 05:11 PM
Israel seizes aid ship bound for Gaza

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29028330/

rather sickening.

Pharoh
02-05-09, 05:32 PM
Israel seizes aid ship bound for Gaza

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29028330/

rather sickening.

I agree, about something being sickening.



By the way, did you read your whole article?

Dr Mabuse
02-05-09, 05:56 PM
:lol:

moorehed
02-05-09, 06:33 PM
Yup.

Ky-Fi
02-05-09, 06:59 PM
I think what you need to do is to define fighting a war to its conclusion with Hamas in Gaza. There are no conventional Hamas forces to defeat. Indeed, if Hamas started building tanks or artillery the IDF would blow them up before they were complete. In a WWII sense, Hamas is completely and totally defeated.

Now, let's compare what was done with the Germans after WWII. Did the allies round them up into walled off ghettos? Did they attempt to cut all trade into and out of Germany off? Did they attempt to bring to justice, not just a few of the worst, but every last war criminal? These acts would not only have been impractical, but excessively punitive. The remaining German population would have been too troublesome if they had been attempted.

Israel does do these things and more. Gaza is effectively a gulag already. Palestinian civilians now smuggle basic goods into Gaza because they're cheaper than what little Israel lets through their borders legally. (Good luck finding rocket parts in that much underground traffic!) The IDF preemptively kills Hamas politicians before they have a chance to commit acts of terror. The IDF destroys homes, schools, etc. if they even suspect militants are using it. (Hey, it's all good if you drop leaflets in advance!) U.S. forces would probably be combating German terrorists today had they treated the Germans this way after WWII.


I would just bring up the very minor point that the allies had levelled virtually every major city and industrial center and major piece of infrastructure in Germany, and between carpet bombing, major land battles, and house-to-house fighting, killed over a million civilians and over 5 million German soldiers, to the point where it was old German men and young boys defending Berlin. In absolutely no way has Hamas "been totally defeated in a World War II sense." The reason allied forces didn't face German terrorism after 1945 was not because they were "less punative" than the Israelis.

Dr Mabuse
02-05-09, 07:05 PM
I would just bring up the very minor point that the allies had levelled virtually every major city and industrial center and major piece of infrastructure in Germany, and between carpet bombing, major land battles, and house-to-house fighting, killed over a million civilians and over 5 million German soldiers, to the point where it was old German men and young boys defending Berlin. In absolutely no way has Hamas "been totally defeated in a World War II sense." The reason allied forces didn't face German terrorism after 1945 was not because they were "less punative" than the Israelis.

Nice.

OldDude
02-05-09, 08:21 PM
Nice.

Nope, war isn't. But we bring the war to your land and wreck your dirt until you give up, unconditionally. That's how wars are won.

Two weeks of tough guy, then driving away (with no surrender) won't cut it.

Dr Mabuse
02-05-09, 08:48 PM
Nope, war isn't. But we bring the war to your land and wreck your dirt until you give up, unconditionally. That's how wars are won.

Two weeks of tough guy, then driving away (with no surrender) won't cut it.

Nice.

;)

eXcentris
02-05-09, 09:59 PM
Nope, war isn't. But we bring the war to your land and wreck your dirt until you give up, unconditionally.

Or in this case whose land!

Locomocha
02-07-09, 10:45 PM
I would just bring up the very minor point that the allies had levelled virtually every major city and industrial center and major piece of infrastructure in Germany, and between carpet bombing, major land battles, and house-to-house fighting, killed over a million civilians and over 5 million German soldiers, to the point where it was old German men and young boys defending Berlin. In absolutely no way has Hamas "been totally defeated in a World War II sense." The reason allied forces didn't face German terrorism after 1945 was not because they were "less punative" than the Israelis.

It's true that Germany was devastated by the end of WWII. However, that devastation all happened while they were still putting up conventional military resistance. What is important is how they were treated after they surrendered. The allies weren't trying to be nice guys either. By the late forties, tensions with Moscow reached the point where getting the German populace on side was viewed as crucial.

kvrdave
02-08-09, 01:16 AM
Or in this case whose land!

:lol: I suppose that depends on one's view of history. You do know that Jerusalem wasn't built in the 1900s don't you?

kvrdave
02-08-09, 01:21 AM
Israel seizes aid ship bound for Gaza

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29028330/

rather sickening.

Now how is Hamas going to get rockets? :(

Ky-Fi
02-08-09, 07:37 AM
It's true that Germany was devastated by the end of WWII. However, that devastation all happened while they were still putting up conventional military resistance. What is important is how they were treated after they surrendered.

After suffering the staggering losses and devastation in order to defeat the Nazis, the allies certainly would not have put up with any type of resistance movements existing on a permanent basis. Compared to the much more lenient and humane actions of the Israelis towards the Palestinians, the attitude of the allies was in stark contrast:


Allied reaction and reprisals

According to Biddiscombe's research, in April 1945 General Eisenhower ordered that all partisans were to be shot.[24] As a consequence, some war crimes (summary executions without trial and the like) followed. Contrary to Section IV of the Hague Convention of 1907, "The Laws and Customs of War on Land", the SHAEF "counter insurgency manual" included provisions for forced labour and hostage taking.[25]

* At Seedorf[disambiguation needed] UK forces randomly selected and burned 2 cottages on April 21.[26]

* At the town of Sogel the Canadian first Army evacuated the civilians from the city center whereupon it was systematically demolished.[27]

* In 1945, it is believed that Canadian forces set civilian houses and a church on fire in reprisal for the death of the unit's commanding officer in battle. Maj.-Gen. Christopher Vokes, commanding the 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division ordered the town to be destroyed. "We used the rubble to make traversable roads for our tanks," Vokes wrote later.[28]

* Unless the citizens of the city of Stuppach within 3 hours produced the German officer that the U.S. forces believed was hiding there they were informed that: all male inhabitants would be shot, women and children expelled to the surrounding wilderness and the city razed.[29]

* U.S. combat troops destroyed the town of Bruchsal, in retaliation for SS activities.[29]

* At the city of Constance in the French occupation zone in mid-May 400 hostages were taken, two persons who resisted French orders had been shot, part of the city evacuated and threats were made to burn the evacuated part down.[citation needed]

* French forces expelled more than 25,000 civilians from their homes. Some of them were then forced to clear minefields in Alsace.[30]

* Killing of hostages by the French took place amongst others in Markdorf and Reutlingen.[citation needed]

* The city of Lichtental was pillaged and the female population raped by the French.[31]

*Jarmin was demolished by Soviet troops. [32]

* At the town of Schivelbein all men were shot and all women and girls raped by Soviet troops. [1][32]

Due to harsh repression such as that, the German resistance movement was successfully suppressed.[33] However, collective punishment for acts of resistance, such as fines and curfews, was still being imposed as late as 1948.[34]

Biddiscombe estimates the total death toll as a direct result of Werewolf actions and the resulting reprisals as 3,000–5,000.[


Biddiscombe, Perry (1998), Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944–1946, University of Toronto Press, pp. 464, ISBN 978-0802008626.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#CITEREFBiddiscombe1998

eXcentris
02-08-09, 01:06 PM
I suppose that depends on one's view of history. You do know that Jerusalem wasn't built in the 1900s don't you?

Why are you trying to impersonate classicman? :)

eXcentris
02-08-09, 01:55 PM
After suffering the staggering losses and devastation in order to defeat the Nazis, the allies certainly would not have put up with any type of resistance movements existing on a permanent basis. Compared to the much more lenient and humane actions of the Israelis towards the Palestinians, the attitude of the allies was in stark contrast:


War is hell and every war had it's fair share of abuses and despicable behavior, which tend to increase according to the scale of each war. Colonial powers (the French in Algeria for example) were also guilty of a lot of abuses. The Israelis, in some respects, are no different unless you use a very strange definition of "lenient and humane" and/or you buy all the carefully manipulated rhetoric coming from the Israelis.

I woudn't call shooting children waving white flags in the head while sitting on your tank munching on chips and chocolate "lenient and humane". Allegedly, there were at least 5 such "white flag incidents". Not to mention accusations and evidence pointing to the usage of white phosphorous bombs...

And:


Neve Gordon, who teaches politics at Ben-Gurion University, Israel, and Yigal Bronner, who teaches at the University of Chicago, USA, wrote about a soccer match where Israelis cheered the death of children in Gaza.

"Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: “Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?” sang the crowd. “Because all the children were gunned down!” came the answer.

Aside from its sheer barbarism, this chant reflects the widespread belief among Israeli Jews that Israel scored an impressive victory in Gaza — a victory measured, not least, by the death toll."


Furthermore, do you think it's odd that Israeli government has now set up a fund to defend its soldiers against war crimes?

Or that the IDF has imposed censorship and now bans the naming of officers involved in the Gaza operation?

And of course as I mentionned a number of times already, international journalists were not allowed in Gaza during the operation. And Israel never shares information, cooperates or even allows independent investigations into any of these "incidents". And that still doesn't make people go "hmmm..."? Fascinating.

Ky-Fi
02-08-09, 02:38 PM
War is hell and every war had it's fair share of abuses and despicable behavior, which tend to increase according to the scale of each war. Colonial powers (the French in Algeria for example) were also guilty of a lot of abuses. The Israelis, in some respects, are no different unless you use a very strange definition of "lenient and humane" and/or you buy all the carefully manipulated rhetoric coming from the Israelis.

I woudn't call shooting children waving white flags in the head while sitting on your tank munching on chips and chocolate "lenient and humane". Allegedly, there were at least 5 such "white flag incidents". Not to mention accusations and evidence pointing to the usage of white phosphorous bombs...


Certainly, there are abuses in all wars. What I stated, and what I showed, is that the Allied policy towards German armed resistance after 1945 was much more brutal than Israeli policy towards armed Palestinian groups.

Neve Gordon, who teaches politics at Ben-Gurion University, Israel, and Yigal Bronner, who teaches at the University of Chicago, USA, wrote about a soccer match where Israelis cheered the death of children in Gaza.

"Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: “Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?” sang the crowd. “Because all the children were gunned down!” came the answer.

Aside from its sheer barbarism, this chant reflects the widespread belief among Israeli Jews that Israel scored an impressive victory in Gaza — a victory measured, not least, by the death toll."

Hmmm...that's the first time I've ever heard of controversy over violent, racist chants at soccer games. Certainly this is unheard of in Europe. (btw, in the future can you provide links to the sources you quote?)


Furthermore, do you think it's odd that Israeli government has now set up a fund to defend its soldiers against war crimes?

If you're talking European based, international courts pursuing war crimes charges, how could any Israeli, looking at present and past European history, POSSIBLY think they're going to get an unbiased judgement from the Europeans?

eXcentris
02-08-09, 05:40 PM
Certainly, there are abuses in all wars. What I stated, and what I showed, is that the Allied policy towards German armed resistance after 1945 was much more brutal than Israeli policy towards armed Palestinian groups.

I understand. I just don't think that such a direct comparison (different times, events, scale) has much validity, not to mention that I don't see the point in a "who is worse" argument.


Hmmm...that's the first time I've ever heard of controversy over violent, racist chants at soccer games. Certainly this is unheard of in Europe. (btw, in the future can you provide links to the sources you quote?)

If you're talking European based, international courts pursuing war crimes charges, how could any Israeli, looking at present and past European history, POSSIBLY think they're going to get an unbiased judgement from the Europeans?

These aren't arguments, just the usual deflection/redirection of any issue/event into your "...but Europe!!!" obsession. But you get marks for being consistent. :)

Links:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/fuelling-the-cycle-of-hate/

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058215.html

And this gets a big :rolleyes: from me:


"As an army which is unsurpassed in its moral traditions, the IDF has done all that it can in order to adhere to international law, in order to avoid harming civilians who are not involved in fighting," Barak said, adding that such moral principles "have not always been enough to prevent tragedies from happening."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057964.html

Typical canned responses from the Israeli government included.

eXcentris
02-08-09, 05:50 PM
I also found one of the reader comments after the 1st Haretz article quite appropriate. i.e. carefully cultivating the victims mentality.


"Israeli society was always introverted. It has a highly developed siege mentality which leads them to always see themselves as victims even when they were killing other people on a large scale. There are no regrets or even acknowledgement of what they inflict on others and therefore any retaliation by the other side appears as unprovoked aggression inspired by unreasoning hate. The 1300:5 ratio of death does not cause a ripple of conscience in the Israeli psyche. Any questionners are treated as `disloyal`. The dead children? - sure their parents voted for Hamas...

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, Israelis still see themselves as David rather than the opposite reality that they are Goliath."

Ky-Fi
02-08-09, 06:18 PM
I understand. I just don't think that such a direct comparison (different times, events, scale) has much validity, not to mention that I don't see the point in a "who is worse" argument.



And that always seems to be the refrain when it's pointed out that Israeli abuses are rather low on the historical list, and that the outrage against Israel expressed by Muslims, Europeans and leftists is based on something other than a proportionate, objective examination of the various conflicts in the world, and the resulting human suffering.

But I'm sure that any day now the Europeans and Muslims will hold massive, often violent protests in dozens of cities worldwide to express their outrage over the hundreds of thousands of people killed by Muslims in Darfur.

eXcentris
02-08-09, 06:38 PM
And there he goes again. "Muslims.... the evil left... multiculturalism... Europe...". Repeat. :lol:

Ky-Fi
02-08-09, 06:45 PM
And there he goes again. "Muslims.... the evil left... multiculturalism... Europe...". Repeat. :lol:

Hey, it's not my fault that reality is repetetive and annoying. Don't blame me just because I have a completely objective, unbelievably perceptive, almost supernaturally omniscient understanding of the world.

Locomocha
02-08-09, 09:36 PM
Certainly, there are abuses in all wars. What I stated, and what I showed, is that the Allied policy towards German armed resistance after 1945 was much more brutal than Israeli policy towards armed Palestinian groups.

Now compare how the allies treated Germany 2 years, 5 years or 10 years after Germany's military defeat.

Dr Mabuse
02-08-09, 10:03 PM
Now compare how the allies treated Germany 2 years, 5 years or 10 years after Germany's military defeat.

Why?

arminius
02-09-09, 07:34 AM
Now compare how the allies treated Germany 2 years, 5 years or 10 years after Germany's military defeat.At that point it was less of how Germany was being treated than what they themselves decided to do going forward. Rebuild the country and not refight the last war.

Josh-da-man
02-09-09, 09:23 AM
The treatment of Germany after "The War to End All Wars" (later be known as World War I) was a significant factor that created the conditions that led to Hitler's rise to power and the second World War.

Ky-Fi
02-09-09, 07:26 PM
Now compare how the allies treated Germany 2 years, 5 years or 10 years after Germany's military defeat.


All right, let's do that. If the Israelis looked to the example of what the US did in Germany as a map for how they should deal with the Palestinians, the Israelis would have to do the following:

* Assume authority over the entire Palestinian educational system, from pre-school to university level. All pro Hamas/Islamist positions would be portrayed as horrible and unconscionable, and all texts and teachers would teach Palestinians that they had been horribly misled into opposing Israel, and that the Israeli version of the conflict was the only one that was acceptable.

* Assume complete control over all Palestinian media, including radio, TV, films, newspapers and magazines, and ban virtually all expressions of pro Hamas/anti-Israel positions via censorship.

* Ban Hamas/Islamist parties and political expression and make participation in these parties, and things like Holocaust denial, criminal offenses.

* Build military bases throughout the Palestinian territories and maintain significant numbers of Israeli troops there indefinitely---and consider basing nuclear weapons there in case of a conflict with neighboring countries.

* make sure the only candidates eligible to run in Palestinian elections and hold positions of authority are those Palestinians who are pro-Israeli, within the bounds of a political spectrum defined by Israel.


If Israel did all these things, then they would be adopting policies analogous to the American administration in postwar Germany.

Oh, and I'm just talking about the extremely generous US---if you want to discuss how the Soviets dealt with their portion of postwar Germany, that's a bit different.

Burnt Thru
02-09-09, 07:50 PM
The treatment of Germany after "The War to End All Wars" (later be known as World War I) was a significant factor that created the conditions that led to Hitler's rise to power and the second World War.

very true. though the depression was undoubtedly a significant factor. the difference in treatment of germany by the alies after the two wars is stark, as were the results that treatment yielded. it would be interesting to see where german resistance was put down by brutal suppression by the allies after the war. i'm not aware of this aspect of the marshall plan.

classicman2
02-20-09, 06:42 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_politics


Israeli President Shimon Peres chose hard-line Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday to form a new Israeli government, giving Netanyahu six weeks to cobble together a coalition.

The question now is whether Netanyahu will form a narrow government with his hard-line allies or a broad government along with his centrist rival, Kadima Party leader Tzipi Livni. His choice will have serious ramifications for the Mideast peace process.

Peres made his announcement early Friday afternoon after holding meetings with Netanyahu and Livni. An official ceremony appointing Netanyahu was to be held shortly afterward.

Peres had been meeting political leaders as he decided which candidate would be given the task of forming a new coalition in the aftermath of Israel's national election last week.

The choice of Netanyahu was cemented on Thursday when Avigdor Lieberman, who heads the hawkish Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel Our Home) party, endorsed the Likud leader.

Kadima edged out Likud in the election, capturing 28 seats to Likud's 27. But Likud is in a better position to put together a coalition because of gains by Lieberman and other hard-line parties.

Netanyahu now can form a hard-line government or bring Livni into a broad coalition that would provide more stability and help Israel avoid a clash with the Obama administration and much of the world.

Emerging from her meeting with Peres, Livni said she would not join a hard-line government and was prepared to sit in the opposition "if necessary."

"I will not be able to serve as a cover for a lack of direction. I want to lead Israel in a way I believe in, to advance a peace process based on two states for two peoples," Livni said.

With Livni out, Netanyahu might have little choice but to forge a coalition with nationalist and religious parties opposed to peacemaking with the Palestinians and Israel's other Arab neighbors.

This could set Israel on a collision course with the U.S., the Jewish state's top international patron, and its new president, who has vowed to make Mideast peace a top priority. And Netanyahu's hold on power would be more tenuous in a narrow coalition of rightists, where his allies could bring down the government in the face of any concession for peace.

It seemed possible that Livni's vow to join the opposition amounted to posturing ahead of coalition bargaining following Lieberman's endorsement of Netanyahu. Lieberman is an immigrant from the former Soviet Union who based his campaign on requiring Israeli Arabs to swear allegiance to the Jewish state or lose their citizenship.

Lieberman's party came in third place in the Feb. 10 election, after Kadima and Netanyahu's Likud. That essentially allowed him to determine whether Netanyahu or Livni would be able to muster the backing of a majority in parliament.

Lieberman's stance toward Arabs has exposed him to charges of racism and many see him as a far-right extremist. However, he is opposed to the Orthodox Jewish establishment's control over key aspects of public life in Israel, one of several positions that has enabled him to find common ground with moderates.

While announcing his support for Netanyahu on Thursday, Lieberman said he preferred a national unity government that included Livni over a narrow hard-line coalition.

Putting together a broad, centrist government would be a tall order for Netanyahu.

Livni has said she will not join Netanyahu in a government unless she can be an equal partner, presumably through the sort of "rotation" agreement Israel has tried in the past in which an election's top two winners each get to be prime minister for half of the government's four-year term.

Netanyahu, however, has ruled out any such arrangement.

As the political wrangling in Israel gains momentum, sporadic violence continues in Gaza in the absence of a long-term cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. Militants fired mortar shells at an Israeli patrol along the Gaza-Israel border Friday, Israeli defense officials said, and the troops returned fire. There were no injuries reported.

Egypt has been trying to mediate a truce since Israel ended its Gaza offensive Jan. 18. Hamas wants Israel to open Gaza's blockaded border crossings, while Israel wants a halt to arms smuggling and the return of a soldier captured in 2006.

Netanyahu has said Israel must topple the Hamas government in Gaza and says Israel halted the Gaza offensive too soon.

eXcentris
02-20-09, 11:22 AM
The US has never been too fond of Netanyahu and I'm sure they hope that he manages to bring Livni in to form a center-right coalition.

classicman2
02-20-09, 12:09 PM
Are you certain you're not confusing the U.S. with Canada?

eXcentris
02-20-09, 12:15 PM
Aren't you tired of making these idiotic posts?

classicman2
02-20-09, 12:20 PM
I'm certain you're aware that how the U.S. 'feels' about Netanayhu depends on what the current policy the U.S. has toward Israel; and, to a lesser extent, who is in power in the U.S.

eXcentris
02-20-09, 12:29 PM
"Officially" the US policy towards Israel remains the same regardless of who is in power in the US. That however, doesn't stop US officials from having preferences, which I have already stated. Now if you believe I'm wrong, why don't you explain why...

Ky-Fi
03-05-09, 12:44 PM
Another bulldozer attack:

Palestinian driver killed after Jerusalem rampage

Associated Press Writer Josef Federman, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM – A Palestinian driver rammed a construction vehicle into a bus and police car on a highway Thursday, wounding two officers before he was shot dead, police said — the latest in a string of attacks by militants using heavy machinery against Israeli targets.

Witnesses described a yellow front loader speeding along Jerusalem's Begin Highway, a main thoroughfare, dragging the police car, flipping it into the air and trying to plow it into the bus, which had no passengers.

Policeman Eldad Ben Nun and his partner had just pulled up to an intersection when the attack began.

"We stopped at a red light and saw in the opposing lane on the left a tractor ramming into a police car with two officers inside and overturning it," Ben Nun told Channel 2 TV. "We stopped the car, I ran over to the tractor and pulled out my gun, fired a few bullets at him (the driver) until he slumped over."

The driver sat up again, another officer shot him three more times with an M-16 assault rifle "and the incident was over," Ben Nun said.

Two taxi drivers said they also opened fire.

"When I saw the bulldozer throw the squad car up and down in the air with an officer inside, I realized it was a terror attack," said driver Uzi Mahatabi.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld identified the attacker as Mar'i al-Rdaidah, a 26-year-old from east Jerusalem. It wasn't clear whether the man worked on his own or was affiliated with a militant group, Rosenfeld said.

"It is without a doubt a terror attack," Jerusalem's deputy police chief, Nisso Shachar, told reporters.

An open copy of the Quran, Islam's holy book, was found inside the vehicle, Shachar added. The presence of the book could indicate the attacker was influenced by Islamic radicals, though many ordinary Muslims routinely carry the Quran.

Police said the two wounded officers were lightly hurt.

In the Gaza Strip, Hamas praised the attack. "We bless this operation today in Jerusalem," said spokesman Fawzi Barhoum. "The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves, and we emphasize we will defend our homeland."

Jerusalem's mayor, Nir Barkat, called for the demolition of the attacker's home — a tactic that has drawn international criticism in the past. Barkat said home demolitions are needed to deter future attacks.

"It was simply an attack meant to murder innocent people," he told Channel 2 TV.

The rampage came as Israel prepared to celebrate Purim, a holiday in which schools are closed, children dress up in costumes and families attend parties and public events.

Barkat said the attack would not stop next week's celebrations. "We need to get back to our routine as fast as possible to show the terrorists that they won't ruin our holiday," he said.

It was the third bulldozer attack in Jerusalem in the past eight months.

Last July, a Palestinian smashed cars and a bus with his heavy construction vehicle in central Jerusalem, killing three people and wounding dozens. Three weeks later, a Palestinian attacker driving a construction vehicle rammed a bus, overturned a car and wounded five people before he was shot dead.

In September, a Palestinian driver rammed his car into a crowd of Israeli soldiers, wounding 19 people, before he was shot dead.

All of the attackers were from east Jerusalem, where Palestinian residents hold Israeli ID cards and can move freely about Israel.

The attack came amid a new surge in fighting in the Gaza Strip, about 50 miles (80 kilometers) southwest of Jerusalem.

An Israeli air strike early Thursday killed two Islamic Jihad militants and wounded another, bringing to four the number of group members killed by Israel in less than 24 hours.

Islamic Jihad said the three men were returning to a refugee camp in central Gaza after a night on patrol along the Gaza-Israel border. The Israeli military said the men fired an anti-tank missile at troops on the Israeli side. No soldiers were reported injured.

"Our rockets and our resistance will not stop," Islamic Jihad official Abu Ahmed said. "We know where and when we will take revenge for these crimes."

Later on Thursday, three rockets fired from Gaza landed in empty ground in southern Israel, the military said. The military responded with two airstrikes on a suspected weapons-smuggling tunnels in southern Gaza. No injuries were reported.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090305/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

OldDude
03-05-09, 12:52 PM
It was the third bulldozer attack in Jerusalem in the past eight months.

Last July, a Palestinian smashed cars and a bus with his heavy construction vehicle in central Jerusalem, killing three people and wounding dozens. Three weeks later, a Palestinian attacker driving a construction vehicle rammed a bus, overturned a car and wounded five people before he was shot dead.

In September, a Palestinian driver rammed his car into a crowd of Israeli soldiers, wounding 19 people, before he was shot dead.

All of the attackers were from east Jerusalem, where Palestinian residents hold Israeli ID cards and can move freely about Israel.

Well, that's a major mistake. Israel shouldn't let ANY Palestinians in to work, and should get guest workers from other friendly countries.

Th0r S1mpson
03-05-09, 01:40 PM
Anyone operating heavy machinery in Jerusalem should be subject to increased background checks to eliminate anyone with ties to a terrorist group, including Hamas. ;)