Return of the Jedi is great

[FRwL]

Of the three holy films, Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, Jedi is widely known as the third favorite, people have gotten so out of hand as to call the film bad, when it's not only one of the best 80s films, but one of the best adventure/fantasy films of all time. Here are just some minor and not so minor reasons i think are forgotten on why this is a great film.

-Boba Fett. When the subject of Mr. Fett is brought up, his death is the immediate digress, forgetting one thing. This is the only film where we see more than just his blaster at use, a wide spectrum of gadgetry he utilizes like the jet-boosters, grapple hook, wrist blasters, simply cool array of toys. Sure he gets offed abruptly (at least he doesn't have a cheesy moment), but for those moments to see him do some action makes up for it, and it would kind of leave a stone unturned to let the most prominent background badguy live in the last film.

-Jedi Luke leads the escape. In the past two films we saw the farmboy being unsure of himself, anxious and tumultuous, now here he is confident and at his most badass, donned in the black outfit with his Jedi skills come of age. The moments right before he's pushed off the ramp are one of the most suspensful in the trilogy.

-Slave Leia. No further explanation necessary.

-The true original Death Star. In the original drafts it was only intended for there to be one Death Star, to be introduced in the last film as said by the One in the Red Plaid, but since all the eggs were placed into the basket for Wars to make it a hit, Jedi gets maligned for rehashing the Star, when it is in fact the original one.

-The space battle. Perhaps the most mentioned great thing, what's been said about this is lots. The greatest space battle depicted in film, the expertise of the bobbing and weaving of the ships, all still unmatched. The win feels so satisfying from a military perspective too, the Rebel fleet feels so diverse, all of their resources pooled for one last giant gamble, the cream of the crop of their pilots and ships, the Falcon being the leader of the fighters, even their command ships the Mon Calamari ones are completely different design, organic, instead of the sharp edged fighters, the flickering thrust exhausts of these scarred ships, veterans of many past conflicts and their best pilots pulling this off is satisfying, had they not won, it would have practically wiped out the best of the alliance, and they were already getting heavy irreplacable casualties.

-The forest battle. I'm glad the Ewoks are the deciding factor in the forest battle, too many times we've seen in movies and history of the two opposing forces locked in escalating conflict everywhere like they're the only two sides in the house. All of those battle sites are entire civilization's homes, and damned if they don't act in unison in tipping battles that decide the fate of the galaxy. Good message that allies are so important, just like the overwhelming factor of the allies in the world wars and as in here. A welcome change of pace to show the realism in the great advantage of external help.

-The final confrontation between Palpatine, Luke, and Vader. We finally see the conflict of all three, ingenious scenes here and packs the most meat from the entire jedi-sith side of the storyline.

-The celebration, after the movies, the ender to such a perfect trilogy, there is no better way to end than celebrating in the harmony of nature, everything they've been fighting for against the cold machine of the empire. It would have been tasteless to have it be in a city or ship, but amidst the woods shows these people to be simple-minded at heart and just good ol' humans and aliens. And of course the three original ghosts, well that is just without words.

-The little things: Giving the extra effort to show these minor things makes me feel appreciative that they cared. The lone AT-AT near the Landing Pad at Endor guarding the place rather than more chicken walkers shows how varied they are and actual levels of security, since it's not used at the forest battle. Vader's skeleton, when the Emperor is having his jolly lightning bouts, we see Vader's skull for split seconds, nice. The Ewok glider shows the furries are no strangers to aerial technology, adding dimension to an otherwise ground battle, in this universe of advanced space tecnology with all those anti-gravity machines and hyperdrives, it's nice to see the first level of it all: gliders.

[Jackskeleton]

"Third favorite" in a trilogy is like saying Godfather III is the third best Godfather film. It's still the least liked of the three.

Jedi may be great.. But compared to the other films that came before it, it was not all that great.

[EdTheRipper]

Of the original trilogy, Jedi has always been my favorite.

[Paul_SD]

Even as a teenager seeing it in 1983, I've never liked this film. Maybe the biggest problem for me is that it lacks conviction- something the second film had in spades.
-Jedi Luke leads the escape. In the past two films we saw the farmboy being unsure of himself, anxious and tumultuous, now here he is confident and at his most badass, donned in the black outfit with his Jedi skills come of age. The moments right before he's pushed off the ramp are one of the most suspensful in the trilogy.

right off the bat this soured me on the film. There is no reason this particular character, at this point in time should be either confident or badass.
the last we saw of him, he had not only been handed a sound thrashing, proving his skills were lacking , his judgment had been poor and that he should have listened to those wiser than he,- but he also got handed information that was either
a) false and an attempt to f#ck with his head (which it clearly did going by his state of mind in the Falcon as they make their escape), or else it's
b) true which opens up a whole slew of issues which should be of fundmental concern to this character and are open, festering, and most definitely unresolved in the 1st act of this film.
in short, this character should be seriously distracted here as well as unsure, lacking confidence, and just about questioning the entire nature of his existence and what he stands for.
Instead, the filmmakers ignore this apsect of the character because it is inconvienent for their first act agenda, and only make him mopey and morose later on- like turning a faucet on and off.

I could go thru this entire film, point by point but its just such a sad exercise.
It would be one thing if this film had been directly preceded by an installment on the level of Battle Beyond the Stars, but it wasn't. The second film went to trouble to make these characters flesh and blood and give them more complex internal dimensions. Jedi just betrays all that for a few cheap and easy crowd pleasing moments.

in the words of R Ebert I "Hate, hate, hate this movie!"

[GuessWho]

This is the only film where we see more than just his blaster at use
When did he use his blaster before that?

[Terrell]

You'll get no arguments from me. I don't think it's a great film, but it is a very good one in my opinion. It's better than 95% of the action-adventure films released in the last decade. The usual criticisms from people who dislike the film are ewoks defeating and empire, Han being neutered, and another Death Star battle. The problem is two of those criticisms are wrong.

Ewoks never defeated the empire. They were a diversion that allowed Han, Leia, Chewie, and the rebel troops with them the opportunity to destroy the shield generator, which was the entire point of the mission on Endor. The rebellion destroyed the empire in the space battle. Vader and the emperor ultimately died in that battle. The Death Star along with numerous Star destroyers were destroyed as well, effectively killing the empire. Any remaining troops would have had no will or desire to continue fighting without the two men responsible for the empire. Though it's safe to assume that remaing star destroyers were eliminated.

As for Han being neutered, that has always been a copout. Han grew as a character. You can clearly see it throughout trilogy. In ANH he cleary was a rogue that only cared about himself and his money. In ROTJ, he was a character that had learned to care about his friends, Leia, and their cause. You can see that change in him in ESB as well. The fact is if Han didn't change and grow as a character, he never would have returned to save the day in ANH. Besides, he still has a little bit of that rogue in him in ROTJ.

As for the recycled death star battle, FRwL already did a good job explaining that one.

It's always boggled my mind how there are Star Wars fans who don't or can't enjoy Jedi. There is just so much in Jedi for any self-respecting Star Wars fan to enjoy. The Han rescure, sarlaac pit battle, the speed chase, the throne room scenes, the reunion with Yoda, and the greatest space battle ever put to film. Is it perfect? No! You can find some legitimate criticisms, as you can do with most films. But it's still a damn good ride. I've always maintained that if you ask the the general populace, at least those that liked the films, most would pick this as their favorite. I have no evidence to back that up. It's my own theory, because I remember Jedi being very popular in it's day. Everyone in my family likes that one the most. I like Empire the most. Though I find it hard to choose between them.

However, opinions on these films are already set in stone. No amount of arguing will ever change those opinions. They're too set in stone.

[iggystar]

I was sold when I saw Luke in his knee-high black boots....

Seriously, I really love Jedi. The speeder chase is brillant. The final light saber battle between him in Darth is my favorite. I even like the Ewok "Yub-Yub" celebration song.

[Doughboy]

Jedi used to be my favorite when I was younger, mostly because it was the one they showed on HBO all the time plus the good guys won decisively. Yes, they also triumphed in Star Wars, but I knew the dark events of Empire(a movie I hated at the time) were still to come.

Around the time I was 16, I got the Definitive Collection on laserdisc and rewatched all 3 back-to-back-to-back. Star Wars was still a great movie, but I was amazed how much I suddenly loved Empire and how much less I thought of Jedi. Don't get me wrong. Jedi is a great flick and I still love it to this day, even the Ewoks. But there are certain things I picked up on that I never noticed(or chose to ignore) as a kid:

1) Carrie Fisher's lazy performance - Yes, I know she was coked up the entire time, but it doesn't change the fact that she was terrible in this movie. Thankfully Mark Hamill had arguably his best performance in the series which helped salvage the pivotal scene where he and Leia part ways on Endor....at least until Han shows up and Carrie Fisher proceeds to ruin it again("Hold me!").

2) Han Solo's suddenly a softie - Unlike a lot of people, I don't really have a problem with Harrison Ford's performance in the film. Yes, he wanted Han to die, which meant he was at least somewhat tired of the role. But he still seemed to be having some fun and there were still a few classic Han moments("Hey, it's me!", "Well why don't you use your divine influence and get us out of this?", the shrug he gives the Imperial officers when he tricks them into opening the blast doors). What I didn't like was how he'd lost the edge he had in the previous 2 films. Yeah, Han is clearly a member of the Alliance at this point and he and Leia are openly in love, but he was still a much weaker and softer character this time around.

3) Yoda's scene - I was never that big on this sequence back when I was younger and considered Jedi my favorite, but now it's almost unbearable. I love Yoda, but his death is dragged out to almost Trinity-esque proportions here. Exactly how many times does he say "Luke" before he finally disappears?

4) C-3PO bringing the Ewoks up to speed on the first two movies - I don't necessarily dislike this scene, but it's completely superfluous.

5) The tide turns way too quickly for the Rebellion - Ok, this is kinda nitpicky since we are talking about a fantasy movie here, but the Rebels sure did go from getting their asses kicked by the Empire in that space battle to suddenly wiping the floor with those Imperial cruisers. One minute X-Wings are getting picked off right and left and the next we're seeing the Super Star Destroyer get demolished(albeit somewhat unintentionally).

6) The Emperor's over-the-top performance - This one actually bothered me more when I was younger than when I rewatched it on laserdisc ironically. And after witnessing Ian's horrific performance as Sidious(the ugly, scarred version, not the smooth operator who tricked the Republic) in Episode III, his ROTJ counterpart seems like a model in restraint.

While that seems like a lot of complaints, there's so much more about this movie I still love. Little moments of brilliance like the fat dude crying over the Rancor's death, the droid being tortured in Jabba's Palace(and 3PO's reaction to it), the Ewoks singing while preparing to feast on Han, and yes, even Chewie's infamous Tarzan yell. The Luke-Vader-Emperor showdown. Vader's conflicting emotions which we can sense despite a mask covering his face. The great action sequences. Lando's redemption(culminating in the Falcon bursting from the exploding Death Star). Cool alien characters like Ackbar, Jabba, and Bib Fortuna. And the aforementioned end celebration scene(provided it's not sullied by the Hayden ghost).

[coli]

There is 3 ways you can look at Return of the Jedi now:

-As a sequel that ends the series compared to duds like Superman IV, Rocky V, and Jurassic Park III, it is a great followup to round out the series.

-Compared to the classics ANH & ESB, it is average, and very inferior in that vain.

-Compared to the Prequels, it is has risen in the last 6 years for me, cause it doesn't have many problems that the PT had: Bad Dialogue, Bad Humor, characters I don't care about.

The problem with ROTJ, is it recycled many things from the original SW, and compared to ESB, where Lucas took the story in a totally different direction without recycling worlds and plot points, ROTJ is does the opposite.

We go back to Tatooine, back to Dagobah, another Death Star. Now some of these worlds were needed in the overall grand scheme of the trilogy, but the problem is it has too many recycled ideas from the previous two movies.

The one thing that makes the movie great is the scenes between Luke, Vader, and The Emperor, because that was a new direction Lucas took the movie, and that is why those scenes hold up well 23 years later.

For me, I still love the movie, cause when watching ANH & ESB, I must have a sense of completion with ROTJ to my beloved trilogy, but I do recognize that it is not close to the quality to its predecessors. But the ending with Lando, Leia, Han, and Luke all together is as perfect as a movie trilogy gets.

In all fairness to ROTJ, most movie series stall out by the third movie, infact most stall out by the first sequel. So I have never complained about ROTJ being pretty good, as compared to ANH & ESB being classics. To have my favorite trilogy of all-time have no dud movies, I will always feel fortunate.

Oh yeah, by the way, I am talking about the ROTJ that has Sebastian Shaw at the end of it, not the contradictory SE with Hayden sitting there next to Alec Guiness. I ask anyone that likes that change:

What aged Darth Vader was conflicted all of ROTJ? What aged Darth Vader saved Luke by killling The Emperor in ROTJ? What aged Darth Vader said to Luke at the end of the movie, "Tell your sister, you were right."

It was all Sebastian Shaw aged Darth Vader that did all that, and that is why it is the single most stupid change in the world to have Hayden-aged Anakin sitting there as a force ghost, when it was Sebastian Shaw who was finally redeemed. I think Lucas forgot that Darth Vader and Anakin were the same person, just check what Luke said to him all during ROTJ.

[brianluvdvd]

I was 10 years old when I saw Return of the Jedi in 1983 and I have several reasons for disliking it the most out of the OT. These opinions were formed when I was 10 and not as an adult:

#1. This wasn't Lucas' fault but my Dad's...he made us take my 7 year old sister and my Mom to ROTJ with us. Back when movies ran forever in theaters, he took me to see Star Wars (in 1978) and Empire (in 1981...he took his time taking me...I never forgave him for that) in the theaters sans Mom and sister. I bitched to high heaven but he insisted they come along. After that my sister love Star Wars and wanted to play with all my action figures and read all my books. It seemed like forever before her interest eventually waned.

#2. The Chewie-Tarzan yell. Hell, I was 10 and thought it was stupid.

#3. The Ewoks. Not a fan...I actually hated seeing Stormtroopers being brought down by a rock welding teddy-bear. It still makes me cringe.

#4. The pussification of my favorite character Han Solo. He just seemed so lame. Did carbonite freezing really affect your attitude that much?

#5. The death of Yoda. It's a selfish reason but I wanted more of him. We just get a small amount in Empire and his character was so fascinating at the time. He seemed real to me and I wanted to know about his previous 800 years. Instead we get a quick cameo death scene. :(

6. The Luke/Leia brother/sister thing. I just try to ignore it even to this day.

I am sure there are others but that just stands out in my mind. Instead of being totally negative I will also give 5 reasons why it is still a good film.

1. The final spaceship battle. It kicks ass and actually looks real. Models forever! Lando piloting the Falcon was a nice bonus.

2. Luke & Vader's battle. Before CGI had everyone doing somesaults and backflips, this was the best and most realistic of all the lightsaber battles. The background choir droning as Luke is besting Vader...awesome.

3. Jabba's palace. Jabba was better than I had envisioned (especially what was envision in the comic books at the time and the Rancor was cool and scary at the same time. Tons of aliens which made collecting the action figures even better.

4. The speeder chase.

[Zodiac_Speaking]

I never understood the distain for Jedi. I think its a great capper to the original trilogy-Ewoks and all.

[The Reaper]

Second best of the OT, third best of the whole saga.

[Palpadious]

The scenes between Luke,Vader, and the Emperor are the only things that keep this movie from the crap level of TPM and AOTC.

[Kudama]

If there had been more Hamburger Hill style scenes of Ewoks trying to hold in their viscera and looking for their limbs I could have gotten behind the scene that killed the movie for me. When they made a huge deal about the single ewok fatality it was killed for me absolutley.

Later I realized that this was the exact moment Lucas went into the toy business and left the film business. After that it was all ads for toys.

[FRwL]

When did he use his blaster before that?

Cloud City

[PopcornTreeCt]

I agree that Return of the Jedi is the worst of the OT but that it is still light years above and beyond the new trilogy. It's like saying The Two Towers is the worst of the Lord of the Rings movies, well to some it may be, but it is still one of the best movies of this decade.

[Draven]

ROTJ will always be a kick-ass movie for one reason: the final space battle.

As others have mentioned, NOTHING has come close to this epic conflict. Between the true 3-D manuevers to the dogfights to the capital ships slugging it out, it's got it all.

I agree with the OP completely that the organic Mon Calamari ships vs. the cold and sharp Imperial cruisers is an awesome confrontation.

I've always wanted a TIE-Fighter-esque video game where you could easily jump from the capital ships to the fighters and back. They've done one or the other, but I want both. I want to bring my Calamari cruiser up and unleash a massive broadside of laser fire onto a Star Destroyer. Then I want to hop into my A-Wing and run down TIE interceptors.

That's one of the main reasons I like reading the EU books, especially the Zahn trilogy: kick ass space battles.

The speeder bike chase is almost as cool. I love seeing Luke dispatch one by slicing off the front end as it flew by. Just a totally awesome Jedi move.

ROTJ gets a bit boring in the middle, I've found. But overall, there isn't much I don't like in the flick, especially the original version.

[eedoon]

It was okay, but it could've been a lot lot better had there's no Ewoks in it.

[Paul_SD]

loved how bloodless and lacking in sacrifice this epic 'war' was too.
It's so cool that Lucas used fantasy to impart the universal truth that only the bad guys and non speaking extras get seriously injured or killed in warfare. Thats what really elevates this to the rank of 'greatness' regardless of whether its a sequel or not.

[Terrell]

Star Wars never had much if any blood in it. The same can be said of LOTR. Star Wars is not Underworld.

right off the bat this soured me on the film. There is no reason this particular character, at this point in time should be either confident or badass.
the last we saw of him, he had not only been handed a sound thrashing, proving his skills were lacking , his judgment had been poor and that he should have listened to those wiser than he,- but he also got handed information that was either

Um, did you expect Luke to sulk and cower forever? ROTJ doesn't happen the very next day in the storyline.

[maingon]

i love it, i dont think the ewoks are awesome, but its still a fantastic movie, millions of times better then any of the recent star wars

[sabre]

ewoks suck!!!!!!

[Paul_SD]

Star Wars never had much if any blood in it. The same can be said of LOTR. Star Wars is not Underworld.

severed limbs. Bodies of family members reduced to charred, smoldering husks, scenes of torture, childhood friends killed before his eyes, animals eviscerated to provide lifesaving refuge...



Um, did you expect Luke to sulk and cower forever? ROTJ doesn't happen the very next day in the storyline.

a few weeks to a month...maybe two months. still not enough time to sheath the number of traumatic events that Luke has had to endure in a short time.
He may have been lied to about a fundemental truth by the (people) he trusted the most, the people he has put his faith in. This is the kind of truth that makes black look white and up seem like down...it's beyond disorienting.
There is absolutely no concern given to the kinds of things that certainly must be going thru this characters head- if he were a real person and not just some cardboard replica of the character he was in the first two films.

happy you guys find so much to enjoy in it, but its a lousy 3rd act to me.
It betrays just about everything that the earlier films laboured so hard to establish, imo.

[Egon's Ghost]

I've always loved Jedi, because I was old enough to see it several times at the cinema. The epic climax has yet to be matched in my mind. Then again, I'm older and more cynical now, and sweeping stories like this don't effect me any more, because how can you top something like Star Wars when you are a child? Sure, there are the Ewoks, but come on, the speeder bike chase kicks all ass! To me, the Star Wars trilogy (there is only one) is the be all end all of stories like that.

I agree with the criticisms of Fisher and Ford; to their credit, the characters were really pushed to the sidelines, especially Solo. But, Jedi is about Luke's struggle and the Alliance's struggle. I get a lump in my throat every time I watch the climactic fight between Luke and Vader, and when Vader saves him...well done.

If I were 10 now and saw Lord of the Rings, it would probably have had the same lasting effect on me.

[kcbrett5]

"Third favorite" in a trilogy is like saying Godfather III is the third best Godfather film. It's still the least liked of the three.

Jedi may be great.. But compared to the other films that came before it, it was not all that great.

Do you even read before you post? His point is that most people call it the 3rd best of the trilogy but he feels it is great and should get more respect.

[Draven]

There is absolutely no concern given to the kinds of things that certainly must be going thru this characters head- if he were a real person and not just some cardboard replica of the character he was in the first two films.


Luke got his shit tossed in ESB. Lost a hand, found out about his father's fate, disobeyed his teacher.

In the downtime (which I think was longer than a month or two...they had to get all of the players in place and execute the plan) he went back to his training and said "okay, I get it now. I need to work on this" and got his act together. The rescue plan isn't flawless by any means, but he has had enough time to calm down and embrace his training and trust his instincts.

There is no reason he needed to be a cowering shell of his former self. Doesn't seem to be as big of a stretch to me.

[Jackskeleton]

All it had was a bunch of muppets.

[taa455]

I enjoy Episode VI. It's just a few things that bring the whole movie down a notch. The most glaring example being the cheesy characters (Ewoks; Lando's copilot - stupid looking alien with the mucus covered skin flaps on his face...never says anything but laughs all the time; the fat pig dudes in Jabba's palace...when I was young I thought they were kinda cool but now not so much, the ridiculous Jabba band especially with the extended SE sequence, Jabba's annoying pet) I feel these characters were regretably added for comic relief and kids enjoyment, which I feel brings the whole film down just like Jar jar did for Episode I.

[Nuff]

The only real problem I have with Jedi is the Ewoks...ugh just get rid of them please and the movie improves immensely!

[Terrell]

severed limbs. Bodies of family members reduced to charred, smoldering husks, scenes of torture, childhood friends killed before his eyes, animals eviscerated to provide lifesaving refuge...

That is not the same thing as blood. Showing blood is practically taboo in Star Wars. Most of those things you mentioned occured in the prequel trilogy, and even then there were little to no blood shown. Showing a fair amount of blood would have garnered an R rating. As I said, expecting Underworld type violence and blood in Star Wars is silly.

a few weeks to a month...maybe two months. still not enough time to sheath the number of traumatic events that Luke has had to endure in a short time.

That is more than enough time for Luke to get his shit together.

[jonjj7]

That is not the same thing as blood. Showing blood is practically taboo in Star Wars. Most of those things you mentioned occured in the prequel trilogy, and even then there were little to no blood shown. Showing a fair amount of blood would have garnered an R rating. As I said, expecting Underworld type violence and blood in Star Wars is silly.



That is more than enough time for Luke to get his shit together.


Only time I remember seeing blood is when Obi-Wan slices up the dude in the Mos Eisley cantina. Also, what about when Luke chops off the Wampa's arm? Can't remember if you actually see blood there.

[Legolas]

Um, did you expect Luke to sulk and cower forever? ROTJ doesn't happen the very next day in the storyline.

As opposed to TESB, where Luke's Jedi training lasted for as long as his friends were on Cloud City.

[Hokeyboy]

Man, there's so much awful stuff in ROTJ. Yet it has enough impressive moments to remain a nostalgic favorite. I don't HATE the movie, but man this is the defining moment where Lucas decided to cash out.

[Giantrobo]

Luke got his shit tossed in ESB. Lost a hand, found out about his father's fate, disobeyed his teacher.

In the downtime (which I think was longer than a month or two...they had to get all of the players in place and execute the plan) he went back to his training and said "okay, I get it now. I need to work on this" and got his act together. The rescue plan isn't flawless by any means, but he has had enough time to calm down and embrace his training and trust his instincts.

There is no reason he needed to be a cowering shell of his former self. Doesn't seem to be as big of a stretch to me.


I was thinking the same thing. :up: Plus, and allow me to speculate in a fantasy world, it seems to me Luke's heritage probably allowed him to ramp up rather quickly. Everyone and their mother knows that the Force is strong in him so coming back all "Badass" doesn't seem so far fetched.

[Suprmallet]

ROTJ used to be my favorite of the three. I loved the Jabba scenes and the final space battle. Plus, Vader is so threatening in the opening scene.

Watching it now, it clearly is the weakest of the three. My biggest problem are the proliferation of utterly useless or badly played scenes. Jabba's palace goes on for way too long, and there are a trillion exposition scenes on Endor that could have been shortened. The scene where Luke tells Leia they are siblings is badly acted all around, and yes, the Ewok battle is just embarrassing. But the OP is right, the film gets far too much criticism for what it is. It's a good action film, it's just not up to the level of the last two.

As a standalone film, it's not so bad. As a Star Wars film, it's lacking. I would rank it as fourth best (Empire, Star Wars, Sith, Jedi, Clones, Phantom Menace).

[Doughboy]

Only time I remember seeing blood is when Obi-Wan slices up the dude in the Mos Eisley cantina. Also, what about when Luke chops off the Wampa's arm? Can't remember if you actually see blood there.

There's no blood in either version of Empire when Luke chops off the Wampa's arm. There is a decent amount of blood on Luke's grill when the Wampa knocks him off the Tauntaun at the beginning. It's really noticable when you watch the DVD.

[milo bloom]

There's supposed to be six months between the end of Empire and the beginning of Jedi. I'd gather that Luke spends a lot of time meditating and really getting ahold of himself.

As for Degobah, I've always figured at least several weeks, though if you consider it concurrent to the Falcon traveling between solar systems on a <FTL drive, you're looking at centuries of course :)


I always did like ROTJ, I never had a problem with the Tarzan yell, I was fully aware that the Ewoks were about to barbecue Han, and some of my liking comes from knowledge of the novel which has both Luke, Han and Leia giving big speeches to the Ewoks about why they should join the fight. The new ending to Jedi helped it a bit too, though my perfect version would have the original song in Jabba's palace, but with the SE ending save for having Sebastian Shaw's ghost, and after we do the tour of the galaxy, come back down to Endor and close out on the YubYub song.

[Suprmallet]

Oh, and don't get me started on the special edition. Han shooting first is NOTHING compared to the fucking MUSICAL NUMBER they put in Jabba's palace. Talk about unecessary, distracting, and wholly out of place. Then they took out the best part of the entire score: the Yub Yub song! The only thing the Ewoks were good for.

Also, something that always bothered me about Jedi: At the beginning of the space battle, after Lando tells the fleet to break off from the Death Star, there is a shot where you see several waves of fighters from the view of the Falcon's cockpit. As best I can tell, these fighters come from literally nowhere. They're TIE Fighters, so they don't have hyperdrives, but they just seem to appear out of nowhere. There are three waves, if I recall, and they don't come from out of the bays of the Star Destroyers. They just...appear. One moment we see empty space, the next, it's a TIE Fighter.

[toddly6666]

My fav is Jedi - maybe not the most respectable of the three, but definitely the most re-watchable. I also thought Jedi was the most touching with the Luke, Vader, Palpatine finale in the same type of emotional finale as Return of the King. Return of the King is probably the best 3rd movie in a trilogy out of all movie trilogies.

Basically, Jedi is like X-men 3 - X3 is not the most respectable or greatly reviewed film in comparison to the previous ones, but it's gonna be the most rewatchable one for me, just as Jedi has been...

Jedi was mainly critisized due to the Ewoks....Thanks to the crappy three prequels, I love the ewoks now and has made Jedi look even better and not dated...

[Suprmallet]

Return of the Jedi is NOTHING like X3. The worst of Jedi is far, far, FAR better than the best of X3. Saying that Jedi is anything like X3 is as much hyperbole as saying that X3 was as bad as Batman And Robin.

[BigDaddy]

All it had was a bunch of muppets.

First thing I thought when I saw the thread title.

[PopcornTreeCt]

All it had was a bunch of muppets.

muppets > cgi

A New Hope had as many if not more "muppets" than ROTJ. I never knew Return of the Jedi sucked till DVDTalk told me so. Luckily, I've never meant anyone in reality that thinks the same way.

[Joseph B]

People keep bringing up the Ewoks as source of frustration with Jedi.

Actually, the Ewoks had to be depicted as "cuddly Teddy Bears" or Palpatine would have perceived them as more of a threat.

The fact that Palpatine had thought that he had totally manipulated all the major players (Vader, Luke, and the Rebels) so that he could finaly obtain a healthy, young, apprentice while simultaneously wiping out the Rebels; and then to have all his plans foiled by the intervention of a race he had thought harmless, is not only a great irony, but, in my opinion, one of the great triumphs of the entire Star Wars saga!

[Hulkabrgr]

To me Jedi is my least favorite of the six movies. When I first saw it in the theater as a cik in 83, it was my favorite, but as I have gotten older, it's flaws have bothered me more and more. The drop off from Hope, and Empire to Jedi is steep. For better or worse, at least the prequel trilogy was more consistent in tems of quality. The one scene that has always bothered me in Jedi, and always will is the scene where the Death Star is getting ready to fire for the first time. Most of these shots are taken Directly from ANH, and to me that always seemed like lazy filmmaking.

[Breakfast with Girls]

To me Jedi is my least favorite of the six movies.I find it unbelievable that someone can prefer The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones to Return of the Jedi. Revenge of the Sith, <i>maybe</i>.

Jedi has never bothered me the way it bothers some people here. It has flaws, sure, but a lot of movies I love have flaws. I also like Back to the Future Part III better than Part II and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade more than any other Indiana Jones film (even Raiders, believe it or not).

I guess I'm more interested in empathetic characters that I can relate to. That's Darth Vader being redeemed by his son, Doc Brown falling in love, and Indy coming to terms with his father and seeing him in a new light.

[jdslater1]

I saw ROTJ when I was ten as well, brianluvdvd. I actually like Jedi quite alot aswell. to me it just gets on with the action. Watching it when I was younger it didn't slow down. Unlike ANH does with Luke and ESB does when Luke meets Yodi. Looking back now you are older you realize those scenes are needed.
The Biker scouts have THE best uniform out of the whole Imperial Force. I agree with the small AT-At scene, love the speeder chase ( I always wonder how this would look if it was down nowadays, properbly greenscreen the shit out of it!). And the end battle is the best. Favourite bits in that are the Falcon coming towards you and
turning and Wedge destroying the generator, I just love that sound of breaking glass.

Oh yes, and when Yoda died I cried like a baby, it was actually my 10th birthday when I saw it.

[brianluvdvd]

Oh yes, and when Yoda died I cried like a baby, it was actually my 10th birthday when I saw it.

I was sad but it was nothing compared to the weeping I did in the theater at E.T. at age nine. Hell, I only have to hear the score nowadays and I still tear up sometimes.

[Dr. DVD]

I seem to remember GL saying on one of the many VHS releases of ROTJ that the reason for the kid friendly Ewoks was to balance out the whole dark issue of Luke confronting and having to possibly kill his evil father.

I too am kind of disappointed that they didn't have Luke be more of a rogue type warrior in ROTJ. After going through what he did, one would think that he might be more of a brooding loner type. Granted, he's no longer the whiny kid he was in ANH, but he isn't quite the mental wreck he was at the end of ESB; he's not even much of a balance. I guess I would have liked to see him go more all out when he was saving Han over the Sarlacc Pit. Granted, he did his share of slicing and dicing, but I wish the camera hadn't cut away so abruptly all the time and shown some hands and limbs flying everywhere.

[Egon's Ghost]

I guess I'm more interested in empathetic characters that I can relate to. That's Darth Vader being redeemed by his son, Doc Brown falling in love, and Indy coming to terms with his father and seeing him in a new light.
Well said. How can a person not feel Luke's pain? Shit, he found out Darth Vader of all people is his father, then has fight him, and on his death bed turns out to be a good person.

[milo bloom]

... love the speeder chase ( I always wondered how this would look if it was down nowadays, probably greenscreen the shit out of it!). .


Newsflash, it was green/bluescreen back then too. Actually, if they did it nowadays, they might be able to digitally repaint Luke's glove on the proper hand. It keeps switching hands.


The one scene that has always bothered me in Jedi, and always will is the scene where the Death Star is getting ready to fire for the first time. Most of these shots are taken Directly from ANH, and to me that always seemed like lazy filmmaking.

Are you talking about the closeups of the controller's hands? I guess I never noticed it was reused footage, certainly never thought it worth being bothered about honestly.

[Hulkabrgr]

It is more than the close up, when the death star is first firing the shots of it inside the death star( I believe after the imperial says "fire) are all from ANH.

[Dr. DVD]

It is more than the close up, when the death star is first firing the shots of it inside the death star( I believe after the imperial says "fire) are all from ANH.


If you want to bash the series for using stock footage, look at ESB SE. Most of the shots of Vader returning to his Star Destroyer are just alternate/flipped angles from his approach to the Death Star in ROTJ.

[Hulkabrgr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulkabrgr
It is more than the close up, when the death star is first firing the shots of it inside the death star( I believe after the imperial says "fire) are all from ANH.




If you want to bash the series for using stock footage, look at ESB SE. Most of the shots of Vader returning to his Star Destroyer are just alternate/flipped angles from his approach to the Death Star in ROTJ.


I'm not talking about the special editions, I am talking about the 1983 release. I am not saying that I don't like Jedi- I actually enjoy every film in the saga, it is just my least favorite of the six. Outside of ANH and Empire, each of the films had both positives and negatives.

[jdslater1]

Newsflash, it was green/bluescreen back then too. Actually, if they did it nowadays, they might be able to digitally repaint Luke's glove on the proper hand. It keeps switching hands.

I know, perhaps I meant to say that nowadays the whole scene might be CGI. When they filmed the scene were Anakin is a bike scene on the way to save his mother they didn't even bother to build a whole bike! At least they had actual props back then.

[Dave7393]

-Boba Fett. When the subject of Mr. Fett is brought up, his death is the immediate digress, forgetting one thing. This is the only film where we see more than just his blaster at use, a wide spectrum of gadgetry he utilizes like the jet-boosters, grapple hook, wrist blasters, simply cool array of toys. Sure he gets offed abruptly (at least he doesn't have a cheesy moment)...

I have to disagree. I would argue that most of Fett's appearance in Jedi constitutes a cheesy moment. Here we go:

1. Yes, he does use a "cool array" of all that neat stuff attached to his armor: wrist blasters, jetpack, etc-- but it seemed as though the producers thought, "Well, he'll be dead in this scene, so before he dies, let's let him use EVERYTHING he has within a few minutes before he kicks it. I actually think it would've been cool to have none of that stuff used on screen... let it remain a mystery (but way too subtle a point for the Jedi filmmakers).

(and no points for originality with use of the grappling hook; Boba Fett used it on Luke in the animated 1978 Holiday Special in the same exact way)

2. Fett's actions on ths skiff never made sense to me: one of his arch enemies, Han Solo, is blind and unarmed about 2 feet from him, and Fett chooses to ignore him, instead taking very slow, deliberate aim at Luke on the second skiff (and how conveniently slow, I might add). He could've, and would've, finished off a blind/helpless Han in a heartbeat, who was sentenced to death, anyway. Insead, he completely ignores him. Remember, he's spent the first two movies hot on his tail, and now, suddenly, he's not paying him any attention? Give me a break.

3. The way Fett died is the ulitimate in cheese. Han Solo, not even knowing where the hell Fett is (Han screaming, "BOBA Fett, BOBA Fett, where?"), before accidentally sending the most badass OT Star Wars character headfirst into the side of the barge, screaming, arms flailing, in an embarrassing display if misplaced slapstick.

4. After he falls into the Sarlaac pit, the whole ridiculous scene ends with a burp from within the pit (Haha! The armor must've been hard to digest! Funny stuff! :sarcasm:)

[calhoun07]

You know what I want to know?? What the hell was Fett doing there in the first place, or in A New Hope for that matter? Jabba employed Boba as a bounty hunter to hunt down Han for the price that was on his head. In A New Hope, Jabba hadn't yet come to that breaking point with Han yet where he decided to put a price on his head for the bounty hunters to claim. And in Jedi, clearly Boba completed his task and was probably paid handsomely. So why is he just hanging around Jabba's palace? He's a BOUNTY HUNTER and belongs to NOBODY. That's part of his mystique. When you think about it, the only thing that makes sense about Boba's appearances in A New Hope and ROTJ is because Lucas realized that the character turned into a cash cow and wanted to milk it for all it was worth. And that, true fans, is the real and only reason we have Boba in those movies outside Empire Strikes Back.

[Suprmallet]

Even bounty hunters have downtime. Jabba probably treats Boba pretty well, with all those slaves he has.

[Egon's Ghost]

Oh my God, the Boba Fett super dorks have come out...run away!

[Lt Ripley]

3. The way Fett died is the ulitimate in cheese. Han Solo, not even knowing where the hell Fett is (Han screaming, "BOBA Fett, BOBA Fett, where?"), before accidentally sending the most badass OT Star Wars character headfirst into the side of the barge, screaming, arms flailing, in an embarrassing display if misplaced slapstick.


I personally think Vader was the most badass OT Star Wars Character. Fett may have had the most mystery (Prior to the prequels) surrounding him, but the most bad ass? Never.

[Dave7393]

I personally think Vader was the most badass OT Star Wars Character. Fett may have had the most mystery (Prior to the prequels) surrounding him, but the most bad ass? Never.

That's a matter of opinion-- but sending him off to his death, screaming and waving his arms like a little girl after his jet pack gets bumped, was embarrassing to watch (I cringed, even when I was 10).

[Dave7393]

Oh my God, the Boba Fett super dorks have come out...run away!

Hilarious that you brought up the "super dork" comment with a handle like "Egon's Ghost," since super dork Egon was involved in so many cool pasttimes himself, such as collecting "spores, molds, and fungus." :lol:

[Lt Ripley]

That's a matter of opinion-- but sending him off to his death, screaming and waving his arms like a little girl after his jet pack gets bumped, was embarrassing to watch (I cringed, even when I was 10).

How is Fett more badass then Vader? He looks cooler? I mean come on, especially after the prequels, Fett is nothing more than a glorified Storm Trooper (with great tracking skills). Vader could wipe his ass with Fett. I thought Fett was cool when I was little too. If you are old enough to have seen all of the originals in the theater when they were first released, who did you have the bigger reaction to very first time you saw them on screen? Vader or Fett? I definately had the bigger reaction to Vader. Fett was my favorite action figure though.

[Dave7393]

How is Fett more badass then Vader? He looks cooler? I mean come on, especially after the prequels, Fett is nothing more than a glorified Storm Trooper (with great tracking skills). Vader could wipe his ass with Fett. I thought Fett was cool when I was little too.

What, you're genuinely annoyed that I have a different opinion? You're taking this a bit too seriously, me thinks. :shrug:

[Lt Ripley]

What, you're genuinely annoyed that I have a different opinion? You're taking this a bit to seriously, me thinks. :shrug:

No, no, no. Not at all. I would just like to see why you think Fett is more badass then Vader.

[Egon's Ghost]

Hilarious that you brought up the "super dork" comment with a handle like "Egon's Ghost," since super dork Egon was involved in so many cool pasttimes himself, such as collecting "spores, molds, and fungus." :lol:You got me!

[FRwL]

2. Fett's actions on ths skiff never made sense to me: one of his arch enemies, Han Solo, is blind and unarmed about 2 feet from him, and Fett chooses to ignore him, instead taking very slow, deliberate aim at Luke on the second skiff (and how conveniently slow, I might add). He could've, and would've, finished off a blind/helpless Han in a heartbeat, who was sentenced to death, anyway. Insead, he completely ignores him. Remember, he's spent the first two movies hot on his tail, and now, suddenly, he's not paying him any attention? Give me a break.


This is actually much deeper. It's actually one of the more fleshed out insights into Fett's character. Fett died because of his ego and also his honorable code. Luke was leading the escape and Fett landed on one of the skiffs, he didn't go after blind helpless Han but after the confident and daring Luke since this is the best bounty hunter in the galaxy and as a true hunter he goes after the stronger enemies, the more respectable enemy, not to mention his ego got in the way too since he was just dropped to the ground by a Jedi, infuriated, he pretty much only had him on his mind. And as a strike of luck his oldest archenemy and rival Han didn't square off with him in some final duel, but got accidentally knocked off unbeknownst to either Fett or Han, perfect oddity.

As for the pit, i heard George had planned to make a scene where he escapes the pit after Jabba was dead and the others were gone, but he decided that it would draw away from the momentum (and kill it) of all that had just happened. Kind of like how there's a cut of Vader flying off at the end of Wars.

[PJsig08]

1) Carrie Fisher's lazy performance - Yes, I know she was coked up the entire time, but it doesn't change the fact that she was terrible in this movie.
Was she really coked up? Or is this just some internet geek making up shit?

And for the love of God, don't compare X-Men 3 and ROTJ. Are we really reaching this level of stupidity? ROTJ is leaps, bounds, lightyears (lame pun) ahead of X3.

Now if you want to compare Phantom Menace/Attack of the Clones with X3, that sounds about right.

[rocket1312]

The notion that the Ewoks are the sole reason some don't like Return Of The Jedi is like saying the Civil War was about slavery. Yah, it's the generally accepted, easy answer, but barely even scratches the surface. For the record, I don't mind the Ewoks in theory, but the execution (read: bad comedy) left little to be desired. My major complaints with Jedi are as follows:

-rehashing the Death Star
O.K., the Death Star was always intended to be in the 3rd movie, but they put it in the first one as well. Well that's all well and good, but the fact remains that they did use it in Star Wars and they use it again in Jedi. Been there done that. Which is ashame because I think the half completed Death Star is one of the cooler special effects in the original trilogy.

-Leia revealed to be Luke's sister
This plot twist is bad enough on its own, but the execution of it was painful. They way they acted as though Luke and Leia always knew deep down that they were related is just ridiculous. The scene where Luke is talking to Leia on Endor is as cringe worthy as almost anything in the prequels. A 5 year old could tell that this was shoehorned into the plot once Lucas decided not to do sequels. One of the things that bothered me about the prequels was all of the previous relationships that were revelaed between all the characters (Anakin/c-3p0, Yoda/Chewbacca, Boba Fett/storm troopers). It all seemd so pointless and just made the story feel much less epic. This all started with Luke/Leia as far as I'm concerned. The Luke/Vader relationship was enough and I feel its impact was diminished when the Leia thing was dropped on Luke.

-Lando
This is a very nitpicky complaint, but it always bothered me that they made Lando a General and put him in charge of the Death Star attack. Sure, let him be in the fleet, he can still have his moment of redemption, but putting him in charge just seemed stupid.

-Boba Fett
I'm by no means a Boba Fett geek, but his death pretty much sums up the fact that George Lucas should never do comedy.

-main characters no longer any fun
Luke, Han and Leia just don't seem like the characters they were in the first 2 movies. I realize characters change over time, but they just don't feel right in Jedi. What happened to Leia's feistiness? Why does Han seem like he's bored all the time? At what point did Luke become this supposed badass in black? (I think Luke/Hamill in Jedi is one of the most unconvincing heroes in film history. Right up there with Cruise in MI:2.) The dialogue and the way they interact with each other is so melodramatic, especially when they're all together on Endor. Any synergy that existed between the leads is completely gone now. Whether it's the script, the direction, or the actors themselves, I don't know, but none of it seems organic in the least bit.

-Vader
Last we saw him in Empire, Vader was killing off his own officers, double crossing Lando, torturing Han for fun, and kicking his son's ass all the while trying to convince him to team up, overthrow the Emperor, and rule the galaxy together. When we catch up with him in Jedi, he's going on about how lucky everyone is that he's more forgiving than the Emperor. He's been completely neutered. I realize "there's still good in him," but he loses any sense of threat or intimidation from the very first moment he appears on screen. I tell yah, a lot must have happened in the months between Empire and Jedi, because the characters in this movie are nothing like the ones everyone had gotten to know.

The worst part is that Empire (my favorite movie ever) is incomplete without Jedi, so I can't just ignore it. The same holds true for X3. I love X2 to death and X3 just fizzles away any forward momentum the series had going into its "climactic conclusion." They both limp to the finish line riding on the fumes of the previous films' greatness. Oh well, they're just movies right? I honestly can't think of a film trilogy in which the 3rd film wraps up the series in a way that is 100% satisfactory. (yes I'm including LotR, but that's another topic.)

[hardercore]

I honestly can't think of a film trilogy in which the 3rd film wraps up the series in a way that is 100% satisfactory.

Hold on a minute! Return of the King picked up Best Picture!!!










... just kidding with ya

[Dave7393]

This is actually much deeper. It's actually one of the more fleshed out insights into Fett's character. Fett died because of his ego and also his honorable code. Luke was leading the escape and Fett landed on one of the skiffs, he didn't go after blind helpless Han but after the confident and daring Luke since this is the best bounty hunter in the galaxy and as a true hunter he goes after the stronger enemies, the more respectable enemy, not to mention his ego got in the way too since he was just dropped to the ground by a Jedi, infuriated, he pretty much only had him on his mind. And as a strike of luck his oldest archenemy and rival Han didn't square off with him in some final duel, but got accidentally knocked off unbeknownst to either Fett or Han, perfect oddity.
.

If nothing else, Fett was always incredebly keen on his surroundings-- who was there, and what the dangers were; in Empire, he found the Falcon when Vader, The Emperor, and every other member of the Imperial forces and every other bounty hunter were completely useless. He also damn hear blew Luke's head off in Cloud City, catching Luke completely offguard. And in Jedi, he rockets down to the skiff, and no sooner do his feet land on that deck does he have a cable tied around Luke-- Luke never saw him coming. That's who Fett is. But after that, it completely falls apart.

After we saw how *fast* he landed on the first skiff and fired his grappling hook, why does it look like he's now taking so much time aiming at Luke with his wrist rockets that he may as well be taking survey measurements from where he's standing? Or he could've just rocketed on over to the other skiff. Instead.. he just stands there.. taking aim... very... slowly.

And I still say ignoring Han *and Chewie* was out of character. He would've blown Chewie away in the carbon freezing chamber if Vader hadn't slapped his rifle down, even when Chewie wasn't a direct threat to him at that time. So now, as he aims v e r y s l o w l y at Luke (still a mystery), he ignores an unshackled Chewie-- definately an immediate threat, I'd argue-- who he must hear warns Han about his (Fett's) presence only feet away.

And the best bounty hunter in the galaxy's backpack can be set off by essentially bumping it with a stick? Right. ;)

And like most of Jedi, things are played for laughs. The last we hear of Fett is a "burp." My five year old didn't even think it was funny, but like much of Jedi (the Tarzan yell, the Ewoks in general, the two burp jokes, etc), can anyone imagine such stupidity happening in Empire? Fett deserved better. Christ, I'm almost surprised there wasn't a fart joked worked in there somewhere.

[Paul_SD]

Was she really coked up? Or is this just some internet geek making up shit?

And for the love of God, don't compare X-Men 3 and ROTJ. Are we really reaching this level of stupidity? ROTJ is leaps, bounds, lightyears (lame pun) ahead of X3.



I liked X3 quite a bit better than ROTJ. For one thing, my expectations built up from X2: The Wrath Of Khan were nowhere near as high. I found the pay-off to the Phoenix storyline about commensurate with its set-up in X2- which is to say perfunctory and slight. Had she not spontanelously vaporized, out of the blue in the last few minutes of the film, would X2 substantively been any different? Singer did add some thematic substance to his movies, but X2 already resolved the majority of the 'issues' left hanging with the first film (unlike Empire which left so many balls in the air). I think X1/2 work well as a main course, with X3 being the light desert and coffee- the heavy lifting in terms of establishing themes, characters, etc was already accomplished in those first two.

[GuessWho]

And in Jedi, clearly Boba completed his task and was probably paid handsomely. So why is he just hanging around Jabba's palace?

for the chicks

http://www.coolwatersprods.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bobafettdon.jpg.w180h225.jpg

[Dr. DVD]

And like most of Jedi, things are played for laughs. The last we hear of Fett is a "burp." My five year old didn't even think it was funny, but like much of Jedi (the Tarzan yell, the Ewoks in general, the two burp jokes, etc), can anyone imagine such stupidity happening in Empire? Fett deserved better. Christ, I'm almost surprised there wasn't a fart joked worked in there somewhere.


Read Tales of the Bounty Hunter/Tales from Jabba's Palace and you'll see that Fett got the best of the Sarlacc eventually. Before you start railing against the books/EU let me say that they were written for people like you who enjoy certain characters and want to get more of them and might have seen certain things in the movies as unsatisfactory. If you do like the EU (or some of it, as there is quite a bit of crappy stuff in there), then please ignore the past sentence. ;)

[agent2099]

Jedi was mainly critisized due to the Ewoks....Thanks to the crappy three prequels, I love the ewoks now and has made Jedi look even better and not dated...

:lol: So true. Ewoks and all I thoguht Jedi was a good film. I much prefer Ewoks to the equivalent in the prequel films.

[hardercore]

Nothing pisses me off more than the the costume/mask of Lando's co-pilot and the Tatooine "concert" scenes in Jabba's lair. They make me cringe more than any number of Ewoks or Gungans.

[stingermck]

Return of the Jedi has always been my favorite. Jedi Luke. nuff said

[riley_dude]

"Third favorite" in a trilogy is like saying Godfather III is the third best Godfather film. It's still the least liked of the three.

Jedi may be great.. But compared to the other films that came before it, it was not all that great.
Amen but Jedi great compared to the Prequels.

And like most of Jedi, things are played for laughs. The last we hear of Fett is a "burp." My five year old didn't even think it was funny, but like much of Jedi (the Tarzan yell, the Ewoks in general, the two burp jokes, etc), can anyone imagine such stupidity happening in Empire? Fett deserved better. Christ, I'm almost surprised there wasn't a fart joked worked in there somewhere.
Yes, it's as if Lucas wanted to go for the kiddie crowd starting with this movie and continuing into the next three movies. Lots of Creatures and lots special effects with little substance when it comes to characters or story.

[Lara Means]

Is this article a joke? Carrie Fisher was coked out during the majority of filming. Harrison Ford gained 30 pounds while trapped in carbonite and acted like he didn't want to be there at all. The Emperor was a goofy old man. This movie was piss poor to end the entire Star Wars saga.

[Nesbit]

Uhm I hate Jedi as much as the next DVD Talker but The Emperor was not a goofy old man in Jedi. The Emperor is one of the only things Jedi has going for it.

[Doughboy]

Uhm I hate Jedi as much as the next DVD Talker but The Emperor was not a goofy old man in Jedi. The Emperor is one of the only things Jedi has going for it.

He was goofy at times, but he was much much MUCH worse in Episode III.

[Nesbit]

Yeah but look at it this way. The man is VERY old, filled with the dark side of the force, and has been ruler of the galaxy for 20+ years. I think his character in Jedi is pulled off perfectly.

[Dave7393]

Nothing pisses me off more than the the costume/mask of Lando's co-pilot and the Tatooine "concert" scenes in Jabba's lair. They make me cringe more than any number of Ewoks or Gungans.

It's funny how in Star Wars, aliens played music in the cantina, and it was cool (nobody complained).

In Jedi, aliens play music, and it sucks, and people hate it (myself included). And I couldn't believe the amount of "muppet-ness" going on in Jabba's palace compared to the Cantina scene in Star Wars. You'd think that by the time Jedi came out, the creature effects would've at least looked as good, if not better, than Star Wars. Oh well.

[Nesbit]

In Star Wars the aliens are playing good backround music and take up less than five second of screen time. In Jedi it is a show stopping pop music performance. The song sucks. It breaks up the pacing. Jedi Rocks was the worst change in the special editions IMHO.

[coli]

In Star Wars the aliens are playing good backround music and take up less than five second of screen time. In Jedi it is a show stopping pop music performance. The song sucks. It breaks up the pacing. Jedi Rocks was the worst change in the special editions IMHO.

That is where the quality dropped after ESB. In ROTJ and the Prequel movies, there is stuff that just totally sticks out, and is put there for a reason, rather than just being there to fit the situation.

TPM had Jar Jar who was put there just for comedy, C-3PO was put in the Geonosis sequence just for comedy too. Then did anyone notice that every ship in the PT, Lucas had to show them land on the landing strip, just so he could say how much technology has advanced since 1983. Go back and watch all three prequels, 95% of the ships are shown to land til the ship comes to a complete stop, while the OT only did it when it fit the situation like Han & Leia meeting Lando outside of Cloud City.

[Artman]

Admiral Ackbar = best character ever!

I still think of his signature line when I get caught in traffic... "It's a trap!"

[Dave7393]

Admiral Ackbar = best character ever!


Yeah, but not much of an Admiral, considering that every single direction he gave to Lando (who was a subordinate-- a General), Lando blew him off and did whatever he wanted to do, anyway.

[hardercore]

It's funny how in Star Wars, aliens played music in the cantina, and it was cool (nobody complained).

In Jedi, aliens play music, and it sucks, and people hate it (myself included). And I couldn't believe the amount of "muppet-ness" going on in Jabba's palace compared to the Cantina scene in Star Wars. You'd think that by the time Jedi came out, the creature effects would've at least looked as good, if not better, than Star Wars. Oh well.

I didn't really care so much about the Cantina sequence in A New Hope either, though. But at least its not as distracting.

[Suprmallet]

The band in the original version of ROTJ never, ever bothered me. The CGI musical number in the special edition is more offensive than Greedo shooting first, Jar-Jar, and the Ewoks combined. I can stand to watch the special editions of Star Wars and Empire, but I absolutely 100% refuse to watch the SE of Jedi, for that moment alone.

[TheNightFlier]

In Star Wars the aliens are playing good backround music and take up less than five second of screen time. In Jedi it is a show stopping pop music performance. The song sucks. It breaks up the pacing. Jedi Rocks was the worst change in the special editions IMHO.

:up:

I remember seeing this for the first time with a bunch of friends, and we all had the same reaction..."What the hell is this?" It KILLS the pacing.

I don't mind the new "Victory Celebration" ending, but the music number was just awful and out of place. In general, I don't hate the movie as much as some of the people in this thread, but a lot of the changes were for the worse.

[Paul_SD]

Uhm I hate Jedi as much as the next DVD Talker but The Emperor was not a goofy old man in Jedi. The Emperor is one of the only things Jedi has going for it.

I was never impressed with the Emperor when we finally got to see him 'in the flesh'. Basically, his character is written at the same level as all the others in the movies- which is to say lazy and obvious. The character is a one note 'moustache twirler'. The pitch (in all manner of the word) never changes.

[Suprmallet]

I personally really enjoyed Ian McDiarmid's performance as the Emperor in ROTJ, and really REALLY enjoyed his performances in the prequels.

[Giantrobo]

I personally really enjoyed Ian McDiarmid's performance as the Emperor in ROTJ, and really REALLY enjoyed his performances in the prequels.



I totally agree. In fact, the prequels made me search out other non-star wars perfomances. He was great in the recent Elisabeth I series on HBO.

[Giantrobo]

I was never impressed with the Emperor when we finally got to see him 'in the flesh'. Basically, his character is written at the same level as all the others in the movies- which is to say lazy and obvious. <b>The character is a one note 'moustache twirler'.>/b> The pitch (in all manner of the word) never changes.

It's funny you should say this. I saw an interview with Lucas(Trilogy boxset?) where he talks about how he was influenced by the Saturday Morning Serials from back in the day. So the simple Black v White/Good v Evil theme and the "simplified"(your opinion) Emperor character makes sense. When you think about it, Darth Vader had the most depth of the bad guys due his "good side" taking over.

[Paul_SD]

It's funny you should say this. I saw an interview with Lucas(Trilogy boxset?) where he talks about how he was influenced by the Saturday Morning Serials from back in the day. So the simple Black v White/Good v Evil theme and the "simplified"(your opinion) Emperor character makes sense. When you think about it, Darth Vader had the most depth of the bad guys due his "good side" taking over.

Never bought the last minute conversion by Vader. Just a few minutes prior he is grunting and growling as he tries to skewer his son on the end of his saber. And then when his superior, his master, the man who shaped this beings values, decides to finish the job, he gets all sentimental? Ugh. Nobody here would ever buy a character betraying its core values like this in any other film, and the maudlin sentimentality would be a cause of unending ridicule.
To use the fantasy excuse as a crutch to explain why characters do things completely out of character ( "oh it was the force that made him see his son in that way ....") just means that this film failed in the most basic areas.
The fantasy used to be in the situations- but it was anchored by characters behaving in believable, relatable ways.
Neither Vader, Luke, or the Emperor act in ways commensurate with their behaviour in the previous two films, or act at a level that their position would imply. Somewhere between Luke stepping into the tree to learn a valuable lesson to him setting foot on the Emperors throne room, the concept of the Force got seriously dumbed down into a very linear, easily navigateable concept.
I found that really sad, given how Empire went to pains to give the concept of the force more shape and dimension. Its ok for Luke to go around slicing and dicing and force choking the 'bad' guys in the first act, and apparently suffer no qualms about it (hey, he just found out he could be the son of Vader, and he's the last hope of the free good people everywhere, why should some vigourous bloodletting bother him?) but the thought of having to put down a blood relation for the good of the galaxy...? Fugedaboutit. The galaxy can go screw itself- this ain't no pissant mob boss who won't be missed- this is my beloved daddy whom I never knew.

[Doughboy]

I personally really enjoyed Ian McDiarmid's performance as the Emperor in ROTJ, and really REALLY enjoyed his performances in the prequels.

McDiarmid was great as Palpatine in the prequels. He sucked as Sidious though, especially after his "transformation"(which still BTW makes no sense whatsoever). And it didn't help that the makeup job sucked and Lucas insisted on CGI'ing his yellow eyes instead of just using contacts.

[taa455]

Admiral Ackbar = best character ever!

I still think of his signature line when I get caught in traffic... "It's a trap!"
Or even better....

"Take evasive action!"

[Egon's Ghost]

The band in the original version of ROTJ never, ever bothered me. The CGI musical number in the special edition is more offensive than Greedo shooting first,
I've seen it only once, and have been trying, since 1997, to erase it from my memory with copious amounts of beer.

And of course, you mean, "Greedo shoots at all".

[Egon's Ghost]

Or even better....

"Take evasive action!"
I tend to think, "concentrate all fire power on the Super Star Destroyer"

[Giantrobo]

Never bought the last minute conversion by Vader. Just a few minutes prior he is grunting and growling as he tries to skewer his son on the end of his saber. And then when his superior, his master, the man who shaped this beings values, decides to finish the job, he gets all sentimental? Ugh. Nobody here would ever buy a character betraying its core values like this in any other film, and the maudlin sentimentality would be a cause of unending ridicule.
To use the fantasy excuse as a crutch to explain why characters do things completely out of character ( "oh it was the force that made him see his son in that way ....") just means that this film failed in the most basic areas.
The fantasy used to be in the situations- but it was anchored by characters behaving in believable, relatable ways.
Neither Vader, Luke, or the Emperor act in ways commensurate with their behaviour in the previous two films, or act at a level that their position would imply. Somewhere between Luke stepping into the tree to learn a valuable lesson to him setting foot on the Emperors throne room, the concept of the Force got seriously dumbed down into a very linear, easily navigateable concept.
I found that really sad, given how Empire went to pains to give the concept of the force more shape and dimension. Its ok for Luke to go around slicing and dicing and force choking the 'bad' guys in the first act, and apparently suffer no qualms about it (hey, he just found out he could be the son of Vader, and he's the last hope of the free good people everywhere, why should some vigourous bloodletting bother him?) <b>but the thought of having to put down a blood relation for the good of the galaxy...? Fugedaboutit. The galaxy can go screw itself- this ain't no pissant mob boss who won't be missed- this is my beloved daddy whom I never knew.</b>


What do you want from me? Jedis are robe wearin', tree huggin', pussies. :lol: Why do you think they were so stupid when Palpatine was working the system to bogart the galaxy and take over? :p

[Artman]

I tend to think, "concentrate all fire power on the Super Star Destroyer"

:lol: now that I think about it, the absolute best has to be "our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!"

Cracks me up every time...

[hardercore]

I've seen it only once, and have been trying, since 1997, to erase it from my memory with copious amounts of beer.

Anybody know if that sequence (the CGI band in ROTJ) is a complete chapter in the DVD? Because then, just one push of a button and it'd all go away. And then we shall have peace.

[FRwL]

I think people are taking these movies too seriously, these films are glorified Flash Gordon & Western serials, the Emperor isn't some Shakespearean villain, but more like Ming the Merciless, just not as corny. And like Giantrobo said, people are complaining about Luke being a badass in the first act? He's taking out lowly gangster scum not facing off against Sith lords here, which i think we at least deserve after two films of him leading attacks in ship battles.

[Joe Molotov]

:lol: now that I think about it, the absolute best has to be "our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!"

Cracks me up every time...

Admiral Ackbar was always so negative. First it's "Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" so then Lando decides to move in closer to the Star Destroyers and then it's "At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers."

[Paul_SD]

I think people are taking these movies too seriously, these films are glorified Flash Gordon & Western serials, the Emperor isn't some Shakespearean villain, but more like Ming the Merciless, just not as corny. And like Giantrobo said, people are complaining about Luke being a badass in the first act? He's taking out lowly gangster scum not facing off against Sith lords here, which i think we at least deserve after two films of him leading attacks in ship battles.


-Well thats the all purpose response to deflate any criticism about anything entertainment related- you're taking it too seriously.
Batman & Robin didn't suck, you're just taking these things way too seriously.
I was impressed and surpised that Empire took the characters and the situations as seriously as they did. I was greatly disappointed when Jedi didn't.

-I would take Max Von Sydow's Ming over Ian McDiarmid's Emperor any day.
just a personal preference but I found Ming a more interesting, more entertaining character. There is really nothing about the Emperor I find interesting or unique, certainly not his 'master plan', which could be sumarized in a one line sentence written in crayon- which would be appropriate given the age level the material is now solely targeted at.

-Luke facing off the gangster scum points out why Lucas's philosophy here is basically bullshit. There is absolutely no moral or ethical problem with Luke taking out these characters - even though this whole issue was forced by Han who never payed off his debt.
So it's ok to kill beings that you disagree with, as long as they have an element of the unsavory about them. But that won't lead to any 'dark side' implications- so you can basically lash out in anger ("you should have bargined Jabba, that's the last mistake you'll ever make!) and kill, just as long as its for a micro goal (his friends)
But if you put down the worst major domo in the galaxy, who actually does represent an significant impediment to the macro goal ( Freedom for the galaxy from the tyranny of the Empire)- then Lucas has to step in and say that is a big no no.

again, if this weren't annointed with a Star Wars logo, nobody would buy the horseshit philosophy behind these events here.

Doesn't have to be Shakesphere, but it should at least try to be internally consistent. If it isn't consistent, then its probably contrived. And what is even worse, is when you laddle cheap sentiment on top of a contrived situation and then people fall all over themselves praising the material as an emotional high point.

[Breakfast with Girls]

Yeah but look at it this way. The man is VERY old, filled with the dark side of the force, and has been ruler of the galaxy for 20+ years. I think his character in Jedi is pulled off perfectly.Oh--Palpatine. I thought you were talking about Lucas for a minute.

[Lt Ripley]

-Well thats the all purpose response to deflate any criticism about anything entertainment related- you're taking it too seriously.
Batman & Robin didn't suck, you're just taking these things way too seriously.
I was impressed and surpised that Empire took the characters and the situations as seriously as they did. I was greatly disappointed when Jedi didn't.

-I would take Max Von Sydow's Ming over Ian McDiarmid's Emperor any day.
just a personal preference but I found Ming a more interesting, more entertaining character. There is really nothing about the Emperor I find interesting or unique, certainly not his 'master plan', which could be sumarized in a one line sentence written in crayon- which would be appropriate given the age level the material is now solely targeted at.

-Luke facing off the gangster scum points out why Lucas's philosophy here is basically bullshit. There is absolutely no moral or ethical problem with Luke taking out these characters - even though this whole issue was forced by Han who never payed off his debt.
So it's ok to kill beings that you disagree with, as long as they have an element of the unsavory about them. But that won't lead to any 'dark side' implications- so you can basically lash out in anger ("you should have bargined Jabba, that's the last mistake you'll ever make!) and kill, just as long as its for a micro goal (his friends)
But if you put down the worst major domo in the galaxy, who actually does represent an significant impediment to the macro goal ( Freedom for the galaxy from the tyranny of the Empire)- then Lucas has to step in and say that is a big no no.

again, if this weren't annointed with a Star Wars logo, nobody would buy the horseshit philosophy behind these events here.

Doesn't have to be Shakesphere, but it should at least try to be internally consistent. If it isn't consistent, then its probably contrived. And what is even worse, is when you laddle cheap sentiment on top of a contrived situation and then people fall all over themselves praising the material as an emotional high point.


The baddies on the skiffs were armed, trying to kill them. I see it as self defense. Luke was attempting to "turn" his father. The moment when the Emperor was telling Luke to kill Vader, Vader was unarmed, AND even though Vader was a big baddy, he was still his father.

Did you even watch ROTJ? :D

[Ky-Fi]

Oh--Palpatine. I thought you were talking about Lucas for a minute.


5/5

:lol:

[Paul_SD]

The baddies on the skiffs were armed, trying to kill them. I see it as self defense. Luke was attempting to "turn" his father. The moment when the Emperor was telling Luke to kill Vader, Vader was unarmed, AND even though Vader was a big baddy, he was still his father.

Did you even watch ROTJ? :D


Interesting how (the screenwriters don't feel a need to have) Han expressing any remorse for the situation his friends are in because of him- i.e. when they are all facing death. All he does is make witless wisecracks.
He was the one who dealt with gangsters and moved in their world. He was the one who welched on the deal and then snuck off rather having to pay off his debt (what the hell did he do with that reward anyway?). What Han got was mob justice.

But that doesn't make the actions of any of the others any more savory or ethical. Luke was the one who came in force choking guards, and waving a blaster around making demands (albeit ineptly).

it would be one thing if Luke went nuts on the barge and then had a horrifying moment of clarity where he realized that he must be descended from someone like Vader after all, and that he could lose control at any time as he surveys the carnage around him- it would at the very least, give the character more rationale for staying his hand from finishing the job later in the film.
but that kind of depth (and thematic coherency) is far beyond this film. It's all just surface and superficial posing.

[Lt Ripley]

Interesting how (the screenwriters don't feel a need to have) Han expressing any remorse for the situation his friends are in because of him- i.e. when they are all facing death. All he does is make witless wisecracks.
He was the one who dealt with gangsters and moved in their world. He was the one who welched on the deal and then snuck off rather having to pay off his debt (what the hell did he do with that reward anyway?). What Han got was mob justice.

But that doesn't make the actions of any of the others any more savory or ethical. Luke was the one who came in force choking guards, and waving a blaster around making demands (albeit ineptly).

it would be one thing if Luke went nuts on the barge and then had a horrifying moment of clarity where he realized that he must be descended from someone like Vader after all, and that he could lose control at any time as he surveys the carnage around him- it would at the very least, give the character more rationale for staying his hand from finishing the job later in the film.
but that kind of depth (and thematic coherency) is far beyond this film. It's all just surface and superficial posing.

Han was asked to join them, then given a guilt trip by her royal highness when he was going to take the reward and leave. Blame the princess for that.

Luke's whole plan for confronting Vader was to "turn" him. It makes perfect sense for him not to have killed him.

It seems you are trying to look way too deep to justify your position. It is Star Wars, not philosophy class.

[Paul_SD]

It seems you are trying to look way too deep to justify your position. It is Star Wars, not philosophy class.

nah. I'm just trying to illustrate why I feel this film is in no way a worthy follow-up to SW and ESB. and given that its the third, resolving act, of a three film story, makes it all the more regretable.

Look, most of you guys bonded with this movie when you were ankle biters. I know no amount of serious disection and analysis is going to convince you this movie actually is insulting your intelligence. I just want to try to make it clear it's more than just muppets and teddy bears that is the reason this film is not held in high regard by (a lot of) people.

[Lt Ripley]

nah. I'm just trying to illustrate why I feel this film is in no way a worthy follow-up to SW and ESB. and given that its the third, resolving act, of a three film story, makes it all the more regretable.

Look, most of you guys bonded with this movie when you were ankle biters. I know no amount of serious disection and analysis is going to convince you this movie actually is insulting your intelligence. I just want to try to make it clear it's more than just muppets and teddy bears that is the reason this film is not held in high regard by (a lot of) people.

Believe me, I don't hold it in high regard either, and I grew up with it.
I rank them:
1 ESB
2 ANH
3 ROTJ
4 TPM (Love the final duel)
5 ROTS
6 AOTC

[Dave7393]

He was the one who welched on the deal and then snuck off rather having to pay off his debt (what the hell did he do with that reward anyway?). .

Even before the Death Star battle in SW, Han wants to leave immediately and pay off his debt. In ESB, he again intends to pay of his debt (as the above poster mentioned), but ends up rescuing the princess instead.

We can assume that the reward money was still on the Falcon when he landed on Cloud City, and was most likely confiscated by the Empire when they raided it (deactivating the hyperdrive, etc).

[Giantrobo]

Admiral Ackbar was always so negative. First it's "Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" so then Lando decides to move in closer to the Star Destroyers and then it's "At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers."


That's because Ackbar thought the battle would be like <i>shooting fish in a barrel</i>.

[Giantrobo]

The baddies on the skiffs were armed, trying to kill them. I see it as self defense. Luke was attempting to "turn" his father. The moment when the Emperor was telling Luke to kill Vader, Vader was unarmed, AND even though Vader was a big baddy, he was still his father.

Did you even watch ROTJ? :D


Or EMPIRE? Vader had been pondering his relationship with Luke since Empire so his "sudden" change wasn't so sudden. Also, The Emperor and Vader were both looking to cornhole each other over Luke. So it made sense that he would kill the Emperor to protect Luke. Apparently there's very little loyalty between Siths.

[Giantrobo]

Interesting how (the screenwriters don't feel a need to have) Han expressing any remorse for the situation his friends are in because of him- i.e. when they are all facing death. All he does is make witless wisecracks.
He was the one who dealt with gangsters and moved in their world. He was the one who welched on the deal and then snuck off rather having to pay off his debt (what the hell did he do with that reward anyway?). What Han got was mob justice.

But that doesn't make the actions of any of the others any more savory or ethical. Luke was the one who came in force choking guards, and waving a blaster around making demands (albeit ineptly).

it would be one thing if Luke went nuts on the barge and then had a horrifying moment of clarity where he realized that he must be descended from someone like Vader after all, and that he could lose control at any time as he surveys the carnage around him- it would at the very least, give the character more rationale for staying his hand from finishing the job later in the film.
but that kind of depth (and thematic coherency) is far beyond this film. It's all just surface and superficial posing.



Dude. All your issues lay soley at Lucas' trypewriter. He's a simplistic writer and most of us, at least the ones not in love with "Emperor Greybeard", came to terms with this fact years ago.

[Giantrobo]

Ok, silly quesion but I need to get a definative answer...

In "Return of the Jedi", who's the "Jedi" that's returning?

Vader or Luke? It may seem like an obvious question but I'll bet more people are confused by the title than you think. Or it could just be me. :lol:

It's like "Shawshank Redemption". It's not Andy who'd being redeemed...

[Suprmallet]

I always took it to mean the Jedi order would be returning, since Luke now represented the first of a new order. So it would be Jedi as a collective.

[Giantrobo]

I always took it to mean the Jedi order would be returning, since Luke now represented the first of a new order. So it would be Jedi as a collective.

So "jedi" is like a plural word. I got that, makes sense.

[Paul_SD]

Even before the Death Star battle in SW, Han wants to leave immediately and pay off his debt. In ESB, he again intends to pay of his debt (as the above poster mentioned), but ends up rescuing the princess instead.

We can assume that the reward money was still on the Falcon when he landed on Cloud City, and was most likely confiscated by the Empire when they raided it (deactivating the hyperdrive, etc).

you're right. That wasn't a fair charcterization.
Him intending to pay Jabba back makes his fate as a wall hanging kind of ironic (which I can dig).


Dude. All your issues lay soley at Lucas' trypewriter. He's a simplistic writer and most of us, at least the ones not in love with "Empe
ror Greybeard", came to terms with this fact years ago.

I think Kurtz was the Lennon to Lucas's McCartney. With him co-producing and Lucas distracted with other things and delegating authority, you get material like Empire Strikes Back. Without him, and with Lucas, unchecked by a studio, and calling all the shots, you get a bunch of hummable but toothless melodies.

Or EMPIRE? Vader had been pondering his relationship with Luke since Empire so his "sudden" change wasn't so sudden. Also, The Emperor and Vader were both looking to cornhole each other over Luke. So it made sense that he would kill the Emperor to protect Luke. Apparently there's very little loyalty between Siths.

now who's reading more into the material than is really there?
where is there ever any indication that Vader could be planning anything contrary to his masters wishes? And if he were, why would he have waited 20 years to do it? was Jason's mutant hallucinogen wearing off?
I also just don't get the whole "if you don't come out so I can kill you- I'll turn your sister to the dark side..." which leads to him being beat in such a humiliating fashion that then leads to him finally 'seeing the light'.
Just seems real convienent to me.

let me put it this way- For everyone that was disappointed in X3- Imagine the scene where the now powerless Magneto sacrifices himself by going up against Phoenix to save the humans and the X-men, because now that he is human he suddenly completely understands and sympathizes with their POV. Imagine something that asinine and then you can understand how I view the similar events in Jedi.

[Nesbit]

now who's reading more into the material than is really there?
where is there ever any indication that Vader could be planning anything contrary to his masters wishes? And if he were, why would he have waited 20 years to do it? was Jason's mutant hallucinogen wearing off?
I also just don't get the whole "if you don't come out so I can kill you- I'll turn your sister to the dark side..." which leads to him being beat in such a humiliating fashion that then leads to him finally 'seeing the light'.
Just seems real convienent to me.

Vader asked Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor at the end of ESB.

Vader wasn't trying to get Luke to come out so that he could kill him. He was trying to get Luke to come out and turn to the dark side. He was saying that if Luke doesn't join the dark side than, "Perhaps she will." It was a way to fuck with Luke and get him to give into the dark side.

[Paul_SD]

Vader asked Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor at the end of ESB.

So you take the villans words at face value?
That's one way to interpret it of course, but to me I always felt that Vader was trying to seduce Luke over to his side with this line of reasoning.
Brute force wasn't working, so the smart thing to do then would be to appeal to Luke on an emotional/intellectual level. "we share the same goals..join me, let's accomplish them"
But nothing Vader says to Luke conflicts with his earlier pledge to the Emperor that luke will "join us or die".
If Luke had suddenly went "ok I'll join you"- that's it. Vader has him in the fold just like he pledged he would do. Luke would have effectively crossed over and then Vader could string him along almost eternally. "so when we overthrowing Palapatine?" "soon my son, just a little longer...first there is something else you have to do ..."

If Vader had actually been intending to overthrow the guy, we would have had scenes showing him undermining his authority, or doing things behind his back. These never happen. It would have been a much better story if they had, but they just aren't there. Vader is simply servile until the last few minutes where his motivation spins around 180 degrees.

[Nesbit]

So you take the villans words at face value?

Why wouldn't I? Also in The Phantom Menace Yoda tells Mace that there are only ever two sith, "No more. No less." Why wouldn't Vader want to rule the galaxy with his son?

As far as there being nothing in the OT that shows that Vader is trying to overthrow the Emperor what about the new dialog between the Emperor and Vader in ESB. It wasn't needed to get the point across because of Vader's hunt for Luke on Hoth but it made it clearer for some people.

[Egon's Ghost]

Anybody know if that sequence (the CGI band in ROTJ) is a complete chapter in the DVD? Because then, just one push of a button and it'd all go away. And then we shall have peace.
I would be pushing the button a hell of a lot; the movie would be 10 minutes long. But, I'll never know.

[nodeerforamonth]

Say all the good things you want about ROTJ, but it still has the Ewoks.

[DRG]

6. The Luke/Leia brother/sister thing. I just try to ignore it even to this day.

This is really my only major complaint with RotJ. It seemed like it was added on as an excuse to gracefully take Luke out of the Han/Leia/Luke love triangle. Sheer chemistry and everything else proceeding it should have been reason enough to have justified Han & Leia together, but I suppose Lucas might have felt like Luke had "lost" Leia to Han and it might've pissed off Luke fans. But eliminate the need for competition altogether with a last minute revelation and voila, problem solved!

[Lt Ripley]

If Vader had actually been intending to overthrow the guy, we would have had scenes showing him undermining his authority, or doing things behind his back. These never happen. It would have been a much better story if they had, but they just aren't there. Vader is simply servile until the last few minutes where his motivation spins around 180 degrees.

That's the difference between a retarded villian and a smart villian. You do not undermine your superiors authority or go behind his back if you are smart. You do not want your superior having any inkling that you are going to take him out.

[Iron_Giant]

Of the original trilogy, Jedi has always been my favorite.
Jedi has always gotten a bum rap, it was a great movie.
1. Open 20 minutes (until Jabba blows up in the sand)
2. Air Motor Chase
3. Space battles (almost overwhelming, may have been too many ships)
4. Space ships chasing inside the hollow Death Star
5. Luke telling his sister the are related
6. Empire
7. Darth and Luke battle it out
8. Darth saves the day (Anakin really did bring balance to the Force)

[Iron_Giant]

That's the difference between a retarded villian and a smart villian. You do not undermine your superiors authority or go behind his back if you are smart. You do not want your superior having any inkling that you are going to take him out.
That is the way of the Dark Side...

[Lt Ripley]

That is the way of the Dark Side...

But...but there was still good in him. -wink-

[james2025a]

I have always like dJedi. I think a large part of it has to do with the fact that i was a kid (10 years old) when it came out and i had loved the other two. I do actually prefer Jedi to Star Wars. IMO Star Wars/A New Hope is maybe the least enjoyable. I still like the movie a lot...but i just find too many areas in it where it drags. The whole Tattoine bit with Luke and his Uncle and Aunt, R2 buggering off into the desert. And to be honest i think the whole Death Star thing at the end is a bit over rated. Empire really brought it to another level. But i think the Space battle at the end of Jedi was fantastic...the best out of the whole series easily. I liked the way Luke was portrayed....i was sick of him being a whiny brat. Remember also that maybe a year or two has passed between films in this universe....so i think its justified that he has learn't more, become more experienced and level headed. I also like the Vader/Luke fight at the end. I don't think any of the fights in any of the films matches the the one in Empire...but this is a great fight none the less. I have been and never will be a fan of Ewoks though. I wish Lucas had stuck with his original plan of having them as Wookies....now that would have been kick ass.

[Egon's Ghost]

Jedi has always gotten a bum rap, it was a great movie.
1. Open 20 minutes (until Jabba blows up in the sand)
2. Air Motor Chase
3. Space battles (almost overwhelming, may have been too many ships)
4. Space ships chasing inside the hollow Death Star
5. Luke telling his sister the are related
6. Empire
7. Darth and Luke battle it out
8. Darth saves the day (Anakin really did bring balance to the Force)
Well put. A true fuckin' epic.

[Lt Ripley]

i was sick of him being a whiny brat.

But I was going to go to Tasche Station to pick up some power converters!

[FRwL]

in the words of R Ebert I "Hate, hate, hate this movie!"

He gave it 4 stars

[Kudama]

I'll admit that, after Lucas went wealth mad (like Michael Jackson) and turned out the last three bloody turds, the ROTJ is brilliant by comparison. Shown with the first two films to stand up against...it is the beginning of the : pukingsmilie: