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View Full Version : Study: Prayer has no effect on heart surgery patients


atlantamoi
03-31-06, 08:39 AM
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-03-30T204217Z_01_N30395850_RTRUKOC_0_US-PRAYER.xml&rpc=22

By MALCOLM RITTER
AP Science Writer
Published on: 03/30/06

NEW YORK Does praying for a sick person's recovery do any good?

In the largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. Doctors could only guess why.

Several scientists questioned the concept of the study.

Science "is not designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center.

The researchers emphasized that their $2.4 million study could not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study could look only for an effect from the specific prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

The study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, said Dr. Charles Bethea, a co-author and cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect."

Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School, co-principal investigator of the study, agreed. "We cannot come to a conclusion, except to say that by this study design, with its limitations, this is what we found," he said.

Researchers also said they didn't know why patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of complications than patients who only knew that such prayers were a possibility.

Maybe they became anxious by the knowledge that they'd been selected for prayers, Bethea said: "Did the patients think, 'I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?'"

The researchers said family and friends shouldn't be discouraged from telling a patient about their plans to pray for a good recovery. The study only focused on prayers by strangers, they said.

It's the largest and best-designed study ever to test the medical effects of intercessory prayers praying on behalf of someone else. But critics said the question of God's reaction to prayer simply can't be explored by scientific study.

The study followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers. It was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion, and one of the participating hospitals. It will appear in Tuesday's issue of the American Heart Journal.

The research team tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients their identities known only by first name and first initial of the last name.

The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.

The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.

The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.

Koenig, of Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.

"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."

Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"

Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, said he believes intercessory prayer can influence medical outcomes, but that science is not equipped to explore it.

"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said.

As for the new study, he said, "I don't think ... it's going to stop people praying for the sick."

Won't resolve anything, but it's interesting.

NCMojo
03-31-06, 08:44 AM
I've always thought the idea of praying for someone going into surgery was a bit daft. It's not like God is going to say, "Hmm... well, I was going to kill Bob... but since you asked so nicely, I'll just bump off this house full of orphaned children in Sao Paulo instead..."

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 08:47 AM
My observation is that prayer works best from a distance. Pray for the unfortunates overseas. Get them to pray for heart patients here.

Venusian
03-31-06, 08:47 AM
a waste $of 2.4 million

dork
03-31-06, 08:50 AM
My observation is that prayer works best from a distance. Pray for the unfortunates overseas. Get them to pray for heart patients here.
Sorry, that sounds like a pyramid scheme. Which, may I remind you, are ILLEGAL.

Numanoid
03-31-06, 08:52 AM
a waste $of 2.4 millionI'm fascinated to know how that dollar sign got to where it is in that sentence.

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 08:57 AM
I don't pray for people to be healed. I pray for God's will to be done, whatever that might be, and for the person and their loved ones to be given the strength and comfort to face whatever comes.

Praying for someone is the same as thinking well of them. It's not a matter of asking God for mercy -- it's an acknowledgment that He is in charge and a way of resigning ourselves to His will.

Venusian
03-31-06, 08:58 AM
I'm fascinated to know how that dollar sign got to where it is in that sentence.
:lol: wow

NCMojo
03-31-06, 08:58 AM
I don't pray for people to be healed. I pray for God's will to be done, whatever that might be, and for the person and their loved ones to be given the strength and comfort to face whatever comes.

Praying for someone is the same as thinking well of them. It's not a matter of asking God for mercy -- it's an acknowledgment that He is in charge and a way of resigning ourselves to His will.
Whaa? So why are you praying? "Dear God... please go ahead and do whatever it was that you were going to do in the first place. Thanks."

:confused:

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 09:06 AM
Whaa? So why are you praying? "Dear God... please go ahead and do whatever it was that you were going to do in the first place. Thanks."

:confused:

Read the second paragraph again. It may help you understand.

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 09:07 AM
well, praying for God to do something in particular is kind of like trying to tell him what to do.

Fortunately, I don't buy into that. My philosophy about deities is not that to worship them, but to USE them. In that context, "prayer" is a more practical concept.

NCMojo
03-31-06, 09:11 AM
Read the second paragraph again. It may help you understand.
I understand the idea that when you say "I'll pray for you" what you really mean is "I'm thinking of you and your family." And I understand the idea of prayer in general... asking for guidance, strength, patience, etc.

What I don't understand is actually praying to God for him to do His will. That seems sort of unnecessary. I can see the idea of praying to God for the family to find peace, strength, etc... and maybe as a caveat saying, "and of course, Thy will be done." But if that's the only purpose of the prayer... yeah, it seems weird.

mllefoo
03-31-06, 09:13 AM
My observation is that prayer works best from a distance. Pray for the unfortunates overseas. Get them to pray for heart patients here.

So you did a study? How do you know?

al_bundy
03-31-06, 09:16 AM
there are also studies that show that people who belong to a church or other religious body in their community tend to lead longer and more healthy lives

mllefoo
03-31-06, 09:16 AM
I don't pray for people to be healed. I pray for God's will to be done, whatever that might be, and for the person and their loved ones to be given the strength and comfort to face whatever comes.


Isn't that a cop out? If God is all mighty and His will is done no matter what, isn't praying that His will be done kind of a waste of time? It's kind of like asking your West Highland White Terrier to bark. It's going to happen anyway, so why ask?



Praying for someone is the same as thinking well of them. It's not a matter of asking God for mercy -- it's an acknowledgment that He is in charge and a way of resigning ourselves to His will.

Meh. Whatever floats your boat. If someone I know is having difficulties, I'll help in any way I can. If they happen to be sick or dying, I will comfort them in any way they want me to, short of praying since I firmly believe praying is begging. I will keep people in my thoughts and send them flowers or something. But praying, in my opinion, is a waste of time.

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 09:16 AM
I understand the idea that when you say "I'll pray for you" what you really mean is "I'm thinking of you and your family." And I understand the idea of prayer in general... asking for guidance, strength, patience, etc.

What I don't understand is actually praying to God for him to do His will. That seems sort of unnecessary. I can see the idea of praying to God for the family to find peace, strength, etc... and maybe as a caveat saying, "and of course, Thy will be done." But if that's the only purpose of the prayer... yeah, it seems weird.

Okay. In praying for God's will to be done, I'm trying to resolve my own conflicts about a situation too -- through prayer. Of course when my friend Karen got cancer I wanted her to be healed. But I knew that what happened to her was up to God. By praying for her, I was able to communicate with God about how I felt, how much she meant to me, and ask him for strength for myself, as well as for Karen and her family. Maybe it seems superfluous and like telling God to go ahead and and do whatever He's going to do, but it's really a way of trying to discern what His will might be and prepare myself for whatever happens.

Venusian
03-31-06, 09:17 AM
why do people think God's will is done no matter what? I think the world is evidence it isn't. He gave man free will to make his own choices and not follow God's like a robot

mllefoo
03-31-06, 09:20 AM
Venusian, it isn't free will if a person is dying. It's the course of life. You can't just say "Oh, I don't feel like being sick with cancer today, I think I'll stop." You just deal with things as they come. It has nothing to do with free will. And it has nothing to do with God.

My feeling is if there is a deity up there watching us, it doesn't have time to cater to every single request made of it. I think whatever higher power there may be just allows things to follow their natural course. You can pray for things not to happen, but that won't stop the natural progression of things.

Venusian
03-31-06, 09:20 AM
My observation is that prayer works best from a distance. Pray for the unfortunates overseas. Get them to pray for heart patients here.
my sarcasm meter is broken, is this a joke?

Groucho
03-31-06, 09:21 AM
Conclusion of the study: God hates heart surgery patients. :sad:

Venusian
03-31-06, 09:22 AM
Venusian, it isn't free will if a person is dying. It's the course of life. You can't just say "Oh, I don't feel like being sick with cancer today, I think I'll stop." You just deal with things as they come. It has nothing to do with free will. And it has nothing to do with God.

My feeling is if there is a deity up there watching us, it doesn't have time to cater to every single request made of it. I think whatever higher power there may be just allows things to follow their natural course. You can pray for things not to happen, but that won't stop the natural progression of things.

i wasn't talking about cancer in particulr, just the idea that God's Will will always be done.

If there is a God, then of course he/she/it would have the time to do whatever. That is why they are God

Venusian
03-31-06, 09:22 AM
Conclusion of the study: God hates heart surgery patients. :sad:

the proper response is:

God doesn't care about heart surgery patients. :sad:

movielib
03-31-06, 09:23 AM
When studies of this type were discussed here in the past I stated that I thought there was no way to do a controlled study since you couldn't actually control what people were doing. Whatever they said they were doing (e.g. praying, not praying etc.) couldn't be verified. Plus you don't know what anyone outside of the study may be doing. The whole thing is ridiculous. These studies are a huge waste of time and scarce research funds, regardless of the (meaningless) outcome.

tasha99
03-31-06, 09:24 AM
Okay. In praying for God's will to be done, I'm trying to resolve my own conflicts about a situation too -- through prayer. Of course when my friend Karen got cancer I wanted her to be healed. But I knew that what happened to her was up to God. By praying for her, I was able to communicate with God about how I felt, how much she meant to me, and ask him for strength for myself, as well as for Karen and her family. Maybe it seems superfluous and like telling God to go ahead and and do whatever He's going to do, but it's really a way of trying to discern what His will might be and prepare myself for whatever happens.

That's how I look at prayer, too.

al_bundy
03-31-06, 09:24 AM
Venusian, it isn't free will if a person is dying. It's the course of life. You can't just say "Oh, I don't feel like being sick with cancer today, I think I'll stop." You just deal with things as they come. It has nothing to do with free will. And it has nothing to do with God.

My feeling is if there is a deity up there watching us, it doesn't have time to cater to every single request made of it. I think whatever higher power there may be just allows things to follow their natural course. You can pray for things not to happen, but that won't stop the natural progression of things.

Because if God granted everyone's request, it would end up just like in Bruce Almighty. Everyone would win the lotto.

Grimfarrow
03-31-06, 09:25 AM
Back to the subject: DUH

ShallowHal
03-31-06, 09:27 AM
I always wonder why people who really believe that prayer helps ask others to pray for the same thing. If every prayer is heard, isn't asking for the same thing over and over again just going to get annoying? :lol:

Numanoid
03-31-06, 09:32 AM
My feeling is if there is a deity up there watching us, it doesn't have time to cater to every single request made of it. I think whatever higher power there may be just allows things to follow their natural course. You can pray for things not to happen, but that won't stop the natural progression of things.I too believe that God, for the most part, allows things to happen naturally. But for a being that exists outside of time and can manipulate it, I don't think running out of it is a concern.

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 09:33 AM
I always wonder why people who really believe that prayer helps ask others to pray for the same thing. If every prayer is heard, isn't asking for the same thing over and over again just going to get annoying? :lol:

Okay. From a Christian perspective, prayer is part of your duty to others. Christ gave the commandment that we love one another as He loved us. In praying for others, we are showing our love, concern, and compassion for them. It is an integral part of sharing your life with others.

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 09:35 AM
Okay. In praying for God's will to be done, I'm trying to resolve my own conflicts about a situation too -- through prayer. Of course when my friend Karen got cancer I wanted her to be healed. But I knew that what happened to her was up to God. By praying for her, I was able to communicate with God about how I felt, how much she meant to me, and ask him for strength for myself, as well as for Karen and her family. Maybe it seems superfluous and like telling God to go ahead and and do whatever He's going to do, but it's really a way of trying to discern what His will might be and prepare myself for whatever happens.

Now that makes sense. It's like meditation in that way. When something (such as a friend's illness) is out of your control, it helps to get that wider perspective on it. From the Christian point of view, dying is not a bad thing to happen to a person. The problem is coping with the loss.

atlantamoi
03-31-06, 09:41 AM
When I used to pray fervently either alone or in a group situation I always felt that a huge chunk of that time was done to help bring some peace to the person actually praying. I can understand people saying that. But as time has gone on and the only way I could believe in a God would be in a Deist sense, prayer does seem strange to me if asking God to change his mind or move for you. Thanks, acceptance and praying to "God" as a one-way means of communication is about the only way this stuff makes any sense.

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 09:42 AM
Now that makes sense. It's like meditation in that way. When something (such as a friend's illness) is out of your control, it helps to get that wider perspective on it. From the Christian point of view, dying is not a bad thing to happen to a person. The problem is coping with the loss.

Exactly. When my mother died a few years ago, I cared for her the last few weeks and saw how debilitated she was (she was 77 and had emphysema, COPD, heart disease, diabetes, and osteoporosis). Loving her as I did, of course it hurt to know I would lose her, but because I knew I would see her again, and because I wanted her to be free from suffering, I prayed for God's will to be done, and quickly, since her condition made it only too obvious what that will would be. :(

People tell me they don't know how I can believe in heaven and eternal life. Without offending anyone, I have to respond that if I didn't, I would see no reason to live. If I thought this earthly life were it -- that I would never see the people I love again -- well, I just don't see the point. I support all religious beliefs held by people of good will, but find it hard to understand embracing those that say this life is it. It's one of my weak spots, I guess.

dave-o
03-31-06, 11:37 AM
While this study was being conducted, I was praying that none of the subjects would get better.

HA! Researcher fools!

Where is your god now Moses?



:D

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 11:37 AM
Now that makes sense. It's like meditation in that way. When something (such as a friend's illness) is out of your control, it helps to get that wider perspective on it. From the Christian point of view, dying is not a bad thing to happen to a person. The problem is coping with the loss.

But you see the problem with meditation is that you are relying on your own (very limited) powers to get over whatever may be troubling you.

As Christians, we believe that the Creator of everything, The God of the Bible, is in control of everything and has power over everything. That is why we pray to Him. We pray for strength (spiritual & physical), guidance and healing for others and ourselves.

By praying, we are acknowledging that we are trusting in Him and even though we do not fully understand his Will, we are trusting that in the End, his Goodness will (has already) overcome the evil (sin) of the world (death, sickness, violence, etc.)

Chris

Minor Threat
03-31-06, 11:45 AM
Without offending anyone, I have to respond that if I didn't, I would see no reason to live. If I thought this earthly life were it -- that I would never see the people I love again -- well, I just don't see the point. I support all religious beliefs held by people of good will, but find it hard to understand embracing those that say this life is it. It's one of my weak spots, I guess.


I hope you're ready to suit up in your flameproof gear again, after your TV cartoon thread I think you're gonna need it.....



-wink-

NCMojo
03-31-06, 11:50 AM
While this study was being conducted, I was praying that none of the subjects would get better.

HA! Researcher fools!

Where is your god now Moses?

http://t3amss.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/thecreepyburgerking.jpg.w300h162.jpg

Minor Threat
03-31-06, 11:54 AM
http://t3amss.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/thecreepyburgerking.jpg.w300h162.jpg

Tripod is my God? I don't get it.....

Nazgul
03-31-06, 12:07 PM
I think we can finally close the debate on whether or not God exists.

Breakfast with Girls
03-31-06, 12:07 PM
I always wonder why people who really believe that prayer helps ask others to pray for the same thing. If every prayer is heard, isn't asking for the same thing over and over again just going to get annoying? :lol:Because saying a prayer is like signing an online petition. And it is every bit as effective.

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 12:18 PM
I think we can finally close the debate on whether or not God exists.

So, what did we decide? :confused:

Chris

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 12:19 PM
Because saying a prayer is like signing an online petition. And it is every bit as effective.

Sounds like someone didn't get his prayers answered! :lol:

Chris

bhk
03-31-06, 12:25 PM
People pray for the wrong things. Even if say that person recovers, they aren't going to live forever.

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 12:37 PM
Fortunately for the entire monotheist world, God answers prayer, but he does NOT grant wishes.

When Joshua (was that who it was? some of you on here know the story I refer to here) asked for the sun to stand still, God understood that what he really needed was just a little more daylight to win the battle by. Joshua didn't have to know that the Earth went around the sun, or word his request properly. Whether God stopped the Earth, created a time bubble around the battlefield, or what, is immaterial. Joshua needed something, asked for it, and got it.

Many people pray for things as if they were making wishes. Often, they ask for things that would not be good for them. Sometimes, they pray for things that God has already made available for them. (They just have to go out and get it, rather than wait for it to drop in their laps.) If you pray for something, and don't get it, look around and see if it is either already there, or not good for you to have given to you.

ShallowHal
03-31-06, 01:00 PM
Okay. From a Christian perspective, prayer is part of your duty to others. Christ gave the commandment that we love one another as He loved us. In praying for others, we are showing our love, concern, and compassion for them. It is an integral part of sharing your life with others.
But that doesn't answer my question. If every prayer is heard and we're all equal, it's a waste of time to repeat it. I guess I'll always question it because I can't understand the concept. We're "given" the ability to question things, yet punished for doing so. That's a hell of a mind game.

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 01:04 PM
But that doesn't answer my question. If every prayer is heard and we're all equal, it's a waste of time to repeat it. I guess I'll always question it because I can't understand the concept. We're "given" the ability to question things, yet punished for doing so. That's a hell of a mind game.

Well, if you just ask once, it could have been just a passing whim, and not a true desire!

Venusian
03-31-06, 01:08 PM
But that doesn't answer my question. If every prayer is heard and we're all equal, it's a waste of time to repeat it. I guess I'll always question it because I can't understand the concept. We're "given" the ability to question things, yet punished for doing so. That's a hell of a mind game.
who says we're punished for questioning?

JasonF
03-31-06, 01:15 PM
Tripod is my God? I don't get it.....

I think he meant
http://charltonhestonworld.homestead.com/files/ch-moses-dathan.jpg

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 01:26 PM
But that doesn't answer my question. If every prayer is heard and we're all equal, it's a waste of time to repeat it. I guess I'll always question it because I can't understand the concept. We're "given" the ability to question things, yet punished for doing so. That's a hell of a mind game.

I don't think it is ever a waste of time to talk to someone you love. God loves us and wants us to consult with Him and open our hearts to Him. Prayer is also part of that. You're still in the "asking for" mode. When I pray I'm not asking for a particular outcome. I'm asking for the strength to face whatever it may be -- for myself and everyone else involved in a given situation. Maybe you're comfortable relying only on your own strength. That's fine. I'm not. So I pray.

ShallowHal
03-31-06, 01:48 PM
I don't think it is ever a waste of time to talk to someone you love. God loves us and wants us to consult with Him and open our hearts to Him. Prayer is also part of that. You're still in the "asking for" mode. When I pray I'm not asking for a particular outcome. I'm asking for the strength to face whatever it may be -- for myself and everyone else involved in a given situation. Maybe you're comfortable relying only on your own strength. That's fine. I'm not. So I pray.
Well, I'm sure you get strength for what you need, but would it be any different than being raised that a Junior Mint listened to prayers? If you didn't pray, what would happen? My guess is you'd be a little shaken because you believe what you do, but you'd still get through it.

BTW, I'm not in any mode. I won't hijack this, but there's no real difference between saying the bible is true and saying a Junior Mint is our god. Both require faith in something you can't possibly know, they're just different representations of what or who you believe exists, and what you use that for. In the end, it's a crapshoot. I just don't see the point in living a certain way or doing certain things because you burn in a lake of fire if you don't. Fear as a teacher can't be based in love.

RunBandoRun
03-31-06, 01:51 PM
Well, I'm sure you get strength for what you need, but would it be any different than being raised that a Junior Mint listened to prayers? If you didn't pray, what would happen? My guess is you'd be a little shaken because you believe what you do, but you'd still get through it.

BTW, I'm not in any mode. I won't hijack this, but there's no real difference between saying the bible is true and saying a Junior Mint is our god. Both require faith in something you can't possibly know, they're just different representations of what or who you believe exists, and what you use that for. In the end, it's a crapshoot. I just don't see the point in living a certain way or doing certain things because you burn in a lake of fire if you don't. Fear as a teacher can't be based in love.

But I don't believe I'll burn in a lake of fire if I'm not a Christian, or even if I don't believe in God. The lake of fire in the book of Revelation is a metaphor for permanent separation from God. Different people come to belief in a higher power through different paths -- Christian, Jewish, Islam, etc. The true definition of hell is to be separated permanently from God -- or whatever higher power you believe protects and guides you. If you truly love God, no torment could be greater, even burning for eternity -- so what would be the point?

atlantamoi
03-31-06, 02:54 PM
Different people come to belief in a higher power through different paths -- Christian, Jewish, Islam, etc. Are you saying that you believe people from all religions will end up in the same heaven with the same God?

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 03:37 PM
In the end, it's a crapshoot.


Actually, in the end we will all be judged by our actions and whether we accepted God's Gift of Grace thru his son Jesus Christ.

And yes, those who did not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be separated from God. Now what that really means, Hell, lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, we really don't know right now.

But I truly believe that everything that has been created (from the universe on down) was created by God, thru his Son Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully man. I cannot comprehend most of that because it is beyond most of our comprehension, but I believe that, in Faith.

I am no better than anyone else in this world, but I've been given the answer to the 'meaning of life' and I want to share that with everyone else in the world that I come into contact with (whether here on The Other or people that I meet). Whether they accept that 'meaning of life' is up to them.

Chris

Breakfast with Girls
03-31-06, 03:43 PM
Sounds like someone didn't get his prayers answered! :lol:I prayed for The Bus to find my post funny in Vibiana's cartoon thread. :(

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 03:45 PM
Are you saying that you believe people from all religions will end up in the same heaven with the same God?

I'm only speaking for myself, but think of it this way. We have a Heavenly Father who wanted the best for us (his creation), to be in a Holy relationship with him. But we turned our backs on Him, thinking we could do a better job ourselves (sin).

He then said, "I will send my One and Only Son to them so that we can be reconciled." But when the Son came to us, we rejected Him and killed Him. So, only those that believe and trust in his Son, will have eternal life with the Father in Heaven.

Chris

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 03:45 PM
I prayed for The Bus to find my post funny in Vibiana's cartoon thread. :(

I think you forgot the 100 Hail Mary's ;)

Chris

eXcentris
03-31-06, 03:49 PM
I am no better than anyone else in this world, but I've been given the answer to the 'meaning of life' and I want to share that with everyone else in the world that I come into contact with (whether here on The Other or people that I meet).

Were you pissed when you found out that the answer is 42? :p

mrpayroll
03-31-06, 03:59 PM
Were you pissed when you found out that the answer is 42? :p

D'oh :confused: it was? I never got the memo.

Chris

Mrs. Danger
03-31-06, 04:44 PM
I think everyone is going to get to the afterlife and be completely and utterly surprised. Especially all the people who told me I was going to Hell, when they see me there.

I'll wave, and try not to smirk.

NCMojo
03-31-06, 05:08 PM
I think he meant
http://charltonhestonworld.homestead.com/files/ch-moses-dathan.jpg
Actually, I meant
http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/6949/burgergod7fz.jpg

al_bundy
03-31-06, 07:40 PM
Actually, in the end we will all be judged by our actions and whether we accepted God's Gift of Grace thru his son Jesus Christ.

And yes, those who did not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be separated from God. Now what that really means, Hell, lake of fire, gnashing of teeth, we really don't know right now.

But I truly believe that everything that has been created (from the universe on down) was created by God, thru his Son Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully man. I cannot comprehend most of that because it is beyond most of our comprehension, but I believe that, in Faith.

I am no better than anyone else in this world, but I've been given the answer to the 'meaning of life' and I want to share that with everyone else in the world that I come into contact with (whether here on The Other or people that I meet). Whether they accept that 'meaning of life' is up to them.

Chris


what about all the people that lived before Jesus or who had never had a chance to hear of Him because they lived in say modern day Peru?

mllefoo
03-31-06, 07:41 PM
Well, I'm sure you get strength for what you need, but would it be any different than being raised that a Junior Mint listened to prayers? If you didn't pray, what would happen? My guess is you'd be a little shaken because you believe what you do, but you'd still get through it.

BTW, I'm not in any mode. I won't hijack this, but there's no real difference between saying the bible is true and saying a Junior Mint is our god. Both require faith in something you can't possibly know, they're just different representations of what or who you believe exists, and what you use that for. In the end, it's a crapshoot. I just don't see the point in living a certain way or doing certain things because you burn in a lake of fire if you don't. Fear as a teacher can't be based in love.

I bet junior mints taste better.

You got peanut butter in my jesus! You got jesus in my peanut butter! JESUS PEANUT BUTTER CUPS!

ShallowHal
03-31-06, 09:40 PM
Actually, in the end we will all be judged by our actions and whether we accepted God's Gift of Grace thru his son Jesus Christ.

And yes, those who did not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be separated from God.
If your religion is right, that is. That was my point about it being a crapshoot. Were you raised to worship Buddha and then found the bible and switched, or do you believe what you do because you're in the US and you were raised to believe it? There are quite a few different religions out there, how can you possibly say without a doubt that you picked the right one?

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 12:56 AM
what about all the people that lived before Jesus or who had never had a chance to hear of Him because they lived in say modern day Peru?

I would think that a God that created all of us, knows all of our thoughts, knows what is in our hearts, would be able to know if people born before Christ would accept Him as their Lord & Savior.

Same for the people that lived after Christ and never heard of him. God will be able to look into their hearts and know if they would have accepted him.

What about all of the babies and kids that die before they reach the age of knowing the difference between good and evil? I believe God can know their souls and see whether they would have accepted Christ.

I don't know this for a fact, but it makes the most sense to me. If he is omnipent and all knowing, then he should be able to know if every soul that he created would or would not accept his Son, Jesus Christ.

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 01:03 AM
If your religion is right, that is. That was my point about it being a crapshoot. Were you raised to worship Buddha and then found the bible and switched, or do you believe what you do because you're in the US and you were raised to believe it? There are quite a few different religions out there, how can you possibly say without a doubt that you picked the right one?

I know this in my heart because no other beliefs make the outrageous claims that Christianity does.

Christianity says that we cannot help ourselves and that only God can help us lead a good life according to His will. Most of the other religions of the world put emphasis in our self power. The key word being self.

Christianity teaches that we cannot earn Gods grace, but that it is a gift from Him.

No other religion has a person claiming to be The Savior and who says that he is God and that we must believe in Him if we want everlasting life with The Father.


Chris

al_bundy
04-01-06, 08:40 AM
I would think that a God that created all of us, knows all of our thoughts, knows what is in our hearts, would be able to know if people born before Christ would accept Him as their Lord & Savior.

Same for the people that lived after Christ and never heard of him. God will be able to look into their hearts and know if they would have accepted him.

What about all of the babies and kids that die before they reach the age of knowing the difference between good and evil? I believe God can know their souls and see whether they would have accepted Christ.

I don't know this for a fact, but it makes the most sense to me. If he is omnipent and all knowing, then he should be able to know if every soul that he created would or would not accept his Son, Jesus Christ.

Chris

how could you accept something you have never heard of?

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 08:50 AM
how could you accept something you have never heard of?

I'm not God, nor do I play one on TV....

But I would think that the Creator of the Universe (as big as it is) and the atom (as small as it is - is the atom still the smallest thing?), who knows us inside and out and knows all of our thoughts and deeds, that he would be able to look into our souls and know if we would have accepted reconciliation thru his Son, Jesus Christ.

I can't explain it, but I believe that that wouldn't be hard for the God that created me.

Chris

Mrs. Danger
04-01-06, 08:57 AM
I know this in my heart because no other beliefs make the outrageous claims that Christianity does.

Christianity says that we cannot help ourselves and that only God can help us lead a good life according to His will. Most of the other religions of the world put emphasis in our self power. The key word being self.

Christianity teaches that we cannot earn Gods grace, but that it is a gift from Him.

No other religion has a person claiming to be The Savior and who says that he is God and that we must believe in Him if we want everlasting life with The Father.


Chris

So, you are saying that Christianity works for you because it is NOT empowering? Interesting! I had never thought about it that way.


(psst, you might want to do some research into world religions before making sweeping statements, though)

movielib
04-01-06, 09:09 AM
I know this in my heart because no other beliefs make the outrageous claims that Christianity does.

So we are supposed to look for the most outrageous religion? Thanks, I didn't know that. I think your religion is the most outrageous so I'll be jumping on board any time now. :up:

"The Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed because it is absurd. And he was buried and rose again; the fact is certain, because it is impossible."
-- Tertullian

According to this Christian apologetic website, your reasoning is much like Tertullian's:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/faithrea.html
Contemporary theologians who deny the rationality of Christian belief often quote Tertullian's statement that the crucifixion should be believed because it is absurd. He also said the fact of the Resurrection is certain because it is impossible. But these statements must be understood from the context of Tertullian's own life and work. He himself utilized elements of Greek philosophy and logic that he believed to be compatible with Christian belief. The major emphasis in his writings was to contrast the coherence of Christianity with the inconsistency of his heretical opponents. When he does speak of the absurdity of Christian belief, he is actually referring to the unlikelihood that any human mind could conceive of God's redemptive plan. Like C. S. Lewis, he was convinced of the truth of the gospel by the very fact that no human being could possibly concoct such a story as is presented in Scripture. Certainly the Jews could not; the claim of Christ that He was God in the flesh was blasphemous to many of them. Nor could the Greeks create such a story; for them, the material world was inferior to the divine realm. God could not possibly assume human flesh in their philosophical reasoning. But for Tertullian, this was compelling evidence that the gospel is true! The religious and philosophical systems contemporary with the advent of Christianity would have prevented any human from simply making up such a fantastic tale. He concluded that the gospel had to originate in the mind of God himself.

movielib
04-01-06, 09:31 AM
Wait, hold on. I just remembered Scientology is even more outrageous. Break out the e-meter and save a spot for me, Tom Cruise.


Edit:
You need to read up on Scientology ;)
Amazing! I wrote this post before reading yours. :lol:

ShallowHal
04-01-06, 10:11 AM
how could you accept something you have never heard of?
Exactly. I see a huge loophole with thoughts and beliefs like that. It's ok to use your powers of deduction to say that the 3 month old who died from SIDS gets a pass because he couldn't choose, but someone else who uses their powers of deduction to say that the ark story is impossible is wrong and will go to 'hell'.

We're 'given' the brain to think and told not to use logic, blind faith in the impossible is the only ticket in. You can stand beside a rapist if he's sorry enough (even Osama if he 'repents'), but the kind hearted person who rejects blind faith goes to 'hell'.

Like I said, that's a hell of a mind game.

Pssst, mrpayroll. Your parents created you. ;)

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 12:53 PM
So, you are saying that Christianity works for you because it is NOT empowering? Interesting! I had never thought about it that way.


(psst, you might want to do some research into world religions before making sweeping statements, though)

The power to do what is right does not come from me. I only have the power to sin.

All good comes from God, whether it's an avowed Scientologist like Tom Cruise who helps the needy or Mother Teresa who helped the poor in India.

Please give me specifics on what other world religions that have a man / woman who claims to be the Savior of the world. Who claims to be God and that all things were created thru Him. Who claims that we are broken and that the only way to get right with the Creator is to believe and trust in Him.

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 12:55 PM
So we are supposed to look for the most outrageous religion? Thanks, I didn't know that. I think your religion is the most outrageous so I'll be jumping on board any time now. :up:

"The Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed because it is absurd. And he was buried and rose again; the fact is certain, because it is impossible."
-- Tertullian

According to this Christian apologetic website, your reasoning is much like Tertullian's:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/faithrea.html

Of course I cannot prove any of this right at this moment, but......wait!

Chris

p.s. glad to have you on board! ;)

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 12:56 PM
You need to read up on Scientology ;)

I made my comment about Tom Cruise before I read this! :D

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 01:03 PM
Wait, hold on. I just remembered Scientology is even more outrageous. Break out the e-meter and save a spot for me, Tom Cruise.


Edit:

Amazing! I wrote this post before reading yours. :lol:

Amazing! I wrote the above post before reading yours! ;)

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 01:06 PM
but someone else who uses their powers of deduction to say that the ark story is impossible is wrong and will go to 'hell'.

Pssst, mrpayroll. Your parents created you. ;)


I strongly disagree with the ark analysis. The only way a person will be 'separated' from God, is if they reject His Grace thru Jesus Christ!

And I even more strongly disagree with your statement about my parents creating me. They NEVER had sex! eeeewwwww!*

Actually they divorced in 1976! ;)


Chris

RunBandoRun
04-01-06, 01:09 PM
It is not up to me to decide who goes to heaven or who goes to hell, nor to fathom how people of differing religions will one day become of one heart and mind. I only know that people of good will are bound for the same place, and people of ill will are unlikely to be joining them. Who belongs to which group is God's lookout, not mine. I just want to make sure I'm standing with the lambs and not the goats on Judgment Day. :)

Is Christianity the only true religion? Of course not. All religions have a piece of the truth. How the puzzle will fit together is something I won't know in this life -- but maybe in the next.

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 01:22 PM
Is Christianity the only true religion? Of course not. All religions have a piece of the truth. How the puzzle will fit together is something I won't know in this life -- but maybe in the next.

All religions have their truths and their faults, Christianity included. That's because they were all started by sinful and imperfect humans. Jesus didn't start the religion of Christianity, this happened after his crucifiction.

But I need to make this clear :

John 14:6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

This one statement makes it very clear to me that Jesus is the only Way to the Father and Everlasting Life, and that Jesus is the Truth of God. No one else!

Chris

Summer_Wind
04-01-06, 01:24 PM
The God of the Bible, is in control of everything and has power over everything. That is why we pray to Him. We pray for strength (spiritual & physical), guidance and healing for others and ourselves.

By praying, we are acknowledging that we are trusting in Him and even though we do not fully understand his Will, we are trusting that in the End, his Goodness will (has already) overcome the evil (sin) of the world (death, sickness, violence, etc.)


Most people do not understand the awesome power of God. He can do ANYTHING. At the same time, he will not tolerate being tested by people saying "I'll only believe in you if I get $1,000,000" or "I'll only believe in you if my cancer goes away". We can not mock his powers, it is blastphomy. There is proof that God is real, his Son walked the earth, and miracles happened.

bhk
04-01-06, 01:24 PM
No other religion has a person claiming to be The Savior and who says that he is God and that we must believe in Him if we want everlasting life with The Father.

The whole basis of Hinduism is that God is always manifest on earth either through an Avtar(like Krishna) or in a God-conscious saint.
Islam also claims the above understanding that you must believe in Mohammed to be able to go to Heaven.

bhk
04-01-06, 01:33 PM
There is an intersting Hindu Puranic tale regarding this very topic.
Prahalad was the son of Hiranakashyap. H was a powerful rakshas(not exactly demon but sort of) who thought of himself as the most powerful on earth. P while in his mother's womb had heard that God is the most powerful. After he was born, H tried many ways to kill P because his son wouldn't recognize H as the most powerful. Every time God protected Prahalad. Finally H got fed up and asked P where God is. P said God is everywhere. H got angry and asked is God in this pillar? Then he kicked the pillar, God manifested and killed H. God then asked Prahalad to ask for something. Prahalad said that all the protection that you gave me while my father was trying to kill me I don't count as protection. Protect me from my inner faults such as anger, greed, lust, ego, and jealousy. That is what I count as true protection.
And that is what people should be praying for. That and the strength to pass through bad times.

bhk
04-01-06, 01:36 PM
Oh and remember, the Bible is compiled by different people. The person/people who wrote it weren't there when Jesus was giving his discourses(as far as I know). Besides, if Christians have a moral dilemma, they cannot ask Jesus. They can ask their priests. But are the priests or even the pope a manifestation of Jesus on earth? I am really curious. Many times different places in the bible seem to have contradictory things written about the same subject.

Summer_Wind
04-01-06, 01:44 PM
if Christians have a moral dilemma, they cannot ask Jesus. They can ask their priests. But are the priests or even the pope a manifestation of Jesus on earth? I am really curious. Many times different places in the bible seem to have contradictory things written about the same subject.

Yes, Christians can ask Jesus through prayer.

The important part is to know Chirst walked the earth, and proved he is the Son of God. No other religion has anyone who did that.

bhk
04-01-06, 02:03 PM
Yes, Christians can ask Jesus through prayer.
Do you get answers back?

The important part is to know Chirst walked the earth, and proved he is the Son of God. No other religion has anyone who did that.
As I posted above, they have.

movielib
04-01-06, 04:46 PM
There is proof that God is real, his Son walked the earth, and miracles happened.
No there isn't.

And if there were such proof there'd be no need for faith.

movielib
04-01-06, 05:31 PM
I would think that a God that created all of us, knows all of our thoughts, knows what is in our hearts, would be able to know if people born before Christ would accept Him as their Lord & Savior.

Same for the people that lived after Christ and never heard of him. God will be able to look into their hearts and know if they would have accepted him.

What about all of the babies and kids that die before they reach the age of knowing the difference between good and evil? I believe God can know their souls and see whether they would have accepted Christ.

I don't know this for a fact, but it makes the most sense to me. If he is omnipent and all knowing, then he should be able to know if every soul that he created would or would not accept his Son, Jesus Christ.

Chris
So if neither you nor I had ever heard of Jesus, god would still know you "would've" accepted him and I "would'nt've."

This game is clearly rigged. :mad:

al_bundy
04-01-06, 05:58 PM
Yes, Christians can ask Jesus through prayer.

The important part is to know Chirst walked the earth, and proved he is the Son of God. No other religion has anyone who did that.

The Egyptian pharoes and many other cultures believed that their ruler was God's representative on earth or had some kind of divinity. the Greeks had their myth about Hercules long before Christianity. There were many Christians in the pre-Constantine Roman world who didn't believe Jesus to be the son of God. And I'm not even talking about the Gnostics.

al_bundy
04-01-06, 06:01 PM
There is an intersting Hindu Puranic tale regarding this very topic.
Prahalad was the son of Hiranakashyap. H was a powerful rakshas(not exactly demon but sort of) who thought of himself as the most powerful on earth. P while in his mother's womb had heard that God is the most powerful. After he was born, H tried many ways to kill P because his son wouldn't recognize H as the most powerful. Every time God protected Prahalad. Finally H got fed up and asked P where God is. P said God is everywhere. H got angry and asked is God in this pillar? Then he kicked the pillar, God manifested and killed H. God then asked Prahalad to ask for something. Prahalad said that all the protection that you gave me while my father was trying to kill me I don't count as protection. Protect me from my inner faults such as anger, greed, lust, ego, and jealousy. That is what I count as true protection.
And that is what people should be praying for. That and the strength to pass through bad times.

I was at the American Museum of Natural History today and walked into the a Asian exhibit. There was stuff about hell there that looked like it came straight from Dante, except it was from India long before Christianity. makes me want to read more about the theory that Jesus spent his missing years in India or Tibet and tried to teach Buddhism in modern day Israel and instead founded what is now called Christianity.

Summer_Wind
04-01-06, 06:07 PM
The Egyptian pharoes and many other cultures believed that their ruler was God's representative on earth or had some kind of divinity. the Greeks had their myth about Hercules long before Christianity. There were many Christians in the pre-Constantine Roman world who didn't believe Jesus to be the son of God. And I'm not even talking about the Gnostics.

And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

But only one religion has a TRUE God!!!! The others are false.

The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here. Our blessings come from God. That is why we don't get tsunami's every year, or major earth quakes like Iran. We got the hurricane in the Big Easy as a wake up call. And it's no surprise that the major fault line in the USA runs by San Francisco.

movielib
04-01-06, 06:16 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

But only one religion has a TRUE God!!!! The others are false.

The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here. Our blessings come from God. That is why we don't get tsunami's every year, or major earth quakes like Iran. We got the hurricane in the Big Easy as a wake up call. And it's no surprise that the major fault line in the USA runs by San Francisco.
:lol: Now I know you're putting us on. Either that or you're Pat Robertson.

al_bundy
04-01-06, 06:26 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

But only one religion has a TRUE God!!!! The others are false.

The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here. Our blessings come from God. That is why we don't get tsunami's every year, or major earth quakes like Iran. We got the hurricane in the Big Easy as a wake up call. And it's no surprise that the major fault line in the USA runs by San Francisco.

Actually muslims believe that they are descended from Ishmael, Son of Abraham and they believe that Jesus was a prophet from God. The Kaaba stone was a meeting place in 7th century Mecca where the different tribes came to work out their differences and avoid war. Mohammed did something with it, but I can't remember what.

And you are wrong with everything else. Egypt has the earliest archeological evidence of monotheism and hebrew is related to a language spoken in Ethiopia which explains the large number of Jews and Christians there. there is even research being done in egypt now that may reveal that Moses was actually an Egyptian in the royal family there who fled after the deaths of King Tut and Akhen-Aton who introduced the worship of one God to Egypt.

What do you call Christian? there are so many Christians around the world with so many beliefs that you can't recognize them.

Summer_Wind
04-01-06, 06:45 PM
Actually muslims believe that they are descended from Ishmael, Son of Abraham and they believe that Jesus was a prophet from God. The Kaaba stone was a meeting place in 7th century Mecca where the different tribes came to work out their differences and avoid war. Mohammed did something with it, but I can't remember what.

And you are wrong with everything else. Egypt has the earliest archeological evidence of monotheism and hebrew is related to a language spoken in Ethiopia which explains the large number of Jews and Christians there. there is even research being done in egypt now that may reveal that Moses was actually an Egyptian in the royal family there who fled after the deaths of King Tut and Akhen-Aton who introduced the worship of one God to Egypt.

What do you call Christian? there are so many Christians around the world with so many beliefs that you can't recognize them.

Non-christians are trying to change religion by making up lies. Look at all the lies- Moses was egyptian, Jesus was teaching hindu, Christianity is a Pagen religion, they are all lies!! Why? To fool people.

Chirstians all follow God, as we were taught by Jesus who was the Son of God. Jesus is the ONLY way to God. Any Christian who believes something different is not a Christian.

NotThatGuy
04-01-06, 06:57 PM
There have been a number of studies that show that people who go into medical procedures with a positive outlook on recovery do better, compared to those with a negative additude on the procedure. I think those studies are more useful to science than studying prayer. If you want to pray and show support for something, then you should....but trying to infer that prayers will make a scientifically measurable change is a waste of time and money.

-p

dork
04-01-06, 06:58 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

But only one religion has a TRUE God!!!! The others are false.

The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here. Our blessings come from God. That is why we don't get tsunami's every year, or major earth quakes like Iran. We got the hurricane in the Big Easy as a wake up call. And it's no surprise that the major fault line in the USA runs by San Francisco.
How would you characterize your sleep pattern?

NotThatGuy
04-01-06, 07:04 PM
How would you characterize your sleep pattern?

rotfl

-p

al_bundy
04-01-06, 07:20 PM
Non-christians are trying to change religion by making up lies. Look at all the lies- Moses was egyptian, Jesus was teaching hindu, Christianity is a Pagen religion, they are all lies!! Why? To fool people.

Chirstians all follow God, as we were taught by Jesus who was the Son of God. Jesus is the ONLY way to God. Any Christian who believes something different is not a Christian.

you should really go read some books

I suggest starting with

http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/TKY18.jpg

which has some good info about Constantine who is one of the founders of Christianity

darkside
04-01-06, 07:45 PM
Non-christians are trying to change religion by making up lies.
Making up lies worked great for Christians why shouldn't atheists give it a try.

As far as the story, who the hell would even bother with a study like this? Last time I checked you can't prove a negative so stop with the God studies.

ShallowHal
04-01-06, 07:50 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.
This is a bit off topic, but why didn't you use an apostrophe on the first two? Or cow's? The Hindu's get special sentence's, but not the other's?

:brickwl2:

atlantamoi
04-01-06, 07:55 PM
We can not mock his powers, it is blastphomy. Well then call me a hairytick.

Summer_Wind
04-01-06, 08:04 PM
Making up lies worked great for Christians why shouldn't atheists give it a try.


Atheists are liars!!

Christ did walk the earth, there were witnesses. He rose from the dead. Not one other religion has a person like Jesus.

ShallowHal
04-01-06, 08:17 PM
Atheists are liars!!
What about Christians? Jesus was Jewish, so if he's the foundation of why people believe, why aren't they Jewish?

al_bundy
04-01-06, 09:40 PM
Atheists are liars!!

Christ did walk the earth, there were witnesses. He rose from the dead. Not one other religion has a person like Jesus.

i like to study the history of my religion for myself rather than blindly listen to other people's interpretation. You should really read some good historical books about the history of Christianity, Europe and the Middle East. It's fascinating. Christianity the way it's practiced in the US is only around 500 years old and didn't start until Martin Luther and the Reformation. The Protestants were prosecuted by the Catholics and they fled Europe to start new colonies somewhere else. Amazingly this is just the time when diseases introduced by the Spanish, French and other Europeans were killing of most of the Indians in the Americas and clearing up free space for the first settlements of the US.

al_bundy
04-01-06, 09:41 PM
What about Christians? Jesus was Jewish, so if he's the foundation of why people believe, why aren't they Jewish?

I heard the thing about getting circumcised when you are an adult turned a lot of people off.

movielib
04-01-06, 10:58 PM
Atheists are liars!!
rotfl

If I could take you seriously I would be insulted.

Christ did walk the earth, there were witnesses. He rose from the dead. Not one other religion has a person like Jesus.
As long as people are recommending books, I recommend this one:

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0722536771.02.LZZZZZZZ.gif

The authors are not atheists (they're Gnostics) so maybe they are not liars.

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 11:44 PM
The whole basis of Hinduism is that God is always manifest on earth either through an Avtar(like Krishna) or in a God-conscious saint.
Islam also claims the above understanding that you must believe in Mohammed to be able to go to Heaven.

But Mohammed only claimed to be a prophet of God. Islam also claims that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 11:51 PM
Oh and remember, the Bible is compiled by different people. The person/people who wrote it weren't there when Jesus was giving his discourses(as far as I know). Besides, if Christians have a moral dilemma, they cannot ask Jesus. They can ask their priests. But are the priests or even the pope a manifestation of Jesus on earth? I am really curious. Many times different places in the bible seem to have contradictory things written about the same subject.

Let's not confuse Catholicism with Christianity. Sure there are some Catholics that are Christians, but when you have a religion that places more importance on the Virgin Mary and the Saints than Jesus, there is something wrong with that.

1 Timothy 2 is very clear on who intercedes for us:

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Chris

mrpayroll
04-01-06, 11:53 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

But only one religion has a TRUE God!!!! The others are false.

The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here. Our blessings come from God. That is why we don't get tsunami's every year, or major earth quakes like Iran. We got the hurricane in the Big Easy as a wake up call. And it's no surprise that the major fault line in the USA runs by San Francisco.

Summer Wind, I was behind you 100% until you said the above. :lol:

Chris

movielib
04-01-06, 11:55 PM
But Mohammed only claimed to be a prophet of God.

Chris
So Mohammed's claim wasn't outrageous, absurd or impossible enough to be believed?

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 12:01 AM
What about Christians? Jesus was Jewish, so if he's the foundation of why people believe, why aren't they Jewish?

It is late now, so I'm not going to quote the Old Testament passages for you, but basically it was prophesied in the Old Testatment that a Savior would come to set them free and that they would reject him even though he was own of them.

The Jewish people had been in slavery for years and thought that their savior would be someone who would mass the armies and overthrow their oppressors. Imagine their surprise when Jesus told them to 'love their enemies' :lol:

Jesus came not to free us from our physical slavery, but from the spiritual slavery (sin) that affects all of us.


Chris

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 12:02 AM
So Mohammed's claim wasn't outrageous, absurd or impossible enough to be believed?

Mohammed was indeed a prophet of a god, who was created by God.

Chris

movielib
04-02-06, 12:05 AM
Summer Wind, I was behind you 100% until you said the above. :lol:

Chris
I hope this didn't sit so well with you either:
Atheists are liars!!
I know you'd never say that, just as I would never make a blanket statement that Christians are liars.

But I do give Summer_Wind credit for spelling "atheist" correctly.

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 12:08 AM
All Catholics are Christians, the originals ;). Who do you protestants pray to again? Henry VIII? Martin Luther? ;)

I've been going to mass every Sunday for 20 years, there definitely noone more important than Jesus in the Church. Just because we honor Mary, doesn't mean we think she is more important than Jesus. After all, she gave birth to our Savior, doesn't that count for something?

I had friends for 20 years that are devout Catholics and I loved them as if they were my own family. But I saw their practices, when they would go pray to the saints in their rooms.

Mary was very important and a very pure and righteous woman. But she was a sinner just like the rest of us. I'm sure she rarely sinned (I cannot make that claim), but it is clear in Timothy that the only person that we can pray to and who intercedes for us is God the Father's Son, Jesus Christ. The Catholics have a ritual of praying a 100 Hail Marys (I was baptized Catholic) after they have sinned.

I'm not saying that us Protestants are anywhere near the perfect religion, but at our church (Presbyterian) the only prayer that we recite regularly is the Lords Prayer that Jesus taught his Disciples.

Chris

movielib
04-02-06, 12:09 AM
Mohammed was indeed a prophet of a god, who was created by God.

Chris
I think I phrased it wrong. I should have said: "So Mohammed's claim wasn't outrageous, absurd or impossible enough for his religion to be believed?"

Since outrageousness, absurdity and impossibility seem to be your and/or Tertullian's criteria for belief. ;)

movielib
04-02-06, 12:27 AM
Obviously, only Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception, and your mind isn't going to be changed, so we should just call a truce and go back to bashing atheists ;)
We can take it. (But we're liars, so I'm probably lying. Or lying about lying. Or...)

ShallowHal
04-02-06, 01:04 AM
I've been going to mass every Sunday for 20 years, there definitely noone more important than Jesus in the Church. Just because we honor Mary, doesn't mean we think she is more important than Jesus. After all, she gave birth to our Savior, doesn't that count for something?
Not to be picky, but what's with this "our" talk?

Summer_Wind
04-02-06, 04:04 AM
Summer Wind, I was behind you 100% until you said the above. :lol:

Chris

Do you believe in Noah? God was so angry at man that he flooded the earth. I don't see why a tsunami is that different? Or an earthquake in Iran. It is Gods wake up call. Do you remember the story of the Tower of Babel? God did not want them to build the tower, and he sent many warnings like thunder and lightning. But they built it anyways and were punished.

I believe God gives us many warnings before a disaster.

ShallowHal
04-02-06, 05:08 AM
I believe God gives us many warnings before a disaster.
How many Christians do you think were in the twin towers?

The Bus
04-02-06, 07:44 AM
They should've prayed to Xenu. -ohbfrank-

OldDude
04-02-06, 08:10 AM
Since outrageousness, absurdity and impossibility seem to be your and/or Tertullian's criteria for belief. ;)

If it's not incredible, it doesn't really strain your credulity or test your faith.
I think it's a requirement for a religion.

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 10:26 AM
Do you believe in Noah? God was so angry at man that he flooded the earth. I don't see why a tsunami is that different? Or an earthquake in Iran. It is Gods wake up call. Do you remember the story of the Tower of Babel? God did not want them to build the tower, and he sent many warnings like thunder and lightning. But they built it anyways and were punished.

I believe God gives us many warnings before a disaster.

I know that God has and will warn us of future disasters (Book of Revelations). But by the way you worded it, you will have a hard time being an effective disciple bringing the words and hope of Jesus Christ to people who do not believe. Just look at the reaction you got here! :lol:

And to blame certain disasters on a certain group of people, forgets that when Adam and Eve (all of us) decided to disobey God and turn away from Him, we brought pain and suffering (disasters) upon ourselves. God created a perfect world and we screwed it up! :(

Chris

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 10:27 AM
Our, as in everyone's Savior. Except you.

But Jesus wants to be! ;)

Chris

movielib
04-02-06, 10:54 AM
The USA is a christian nation, no other religion should be here.
If you truly believe this, you have no understanding whatsoever of just what and how special the very concept of the the USA is. Our founders (including the Christians among them) would be ashamed of you.

mrpayroll
04-02-06, 11:11 AM
Well boys and girls, I'm off to Vegas (Sin City) now. I wonder if this (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=441607&highlight=vegas) will happen to me again? ;)

You guys be good while I'm gone and I'll talk to you on Thursday or so.

Take care, Chris

NotThatGuy
04-02-06, 11:39 AM
Don't you have her # or something? Vegas is Vegas....I'd say go for it, just wrap it up and dive in!

Oh...and put $50 down for me on craps, I'll even split the winnings with ya!

-p

Summer_Wind
04-02-06, 12:53 PM
How many Christians do you think were in the twin towers?

I don't have a link, this is just from memory--- The twin towers have 30,000+ people inside on a normal day, but when they were hit only 3,000 people were inside and died. I think God saved 27,000+ people!!! Do you praise God for saving those lives?

We all have Gods master plan. He wants us to live a certain way, and some people in our community think they are smarter than God. That is the awful sin that causes suffering.

bhk
04-02-06, 02:03 PM
And the muslims worship a rock. The egyptians worshiped cats. Hindu's worship cows.

Hindus don't worship cows in the sense that they think the cow is God. Cows are supposed to be respected and bowed down to. For example, after my morning prayers I bow down and touch the feet of my father and mother. That doesn't mean that I think they are God.
I was at the American Museum of Natural History today and walked into the a Asian exhibit. There was stuff about hell there that looked like it came straight from Dante, except it was from India long before Christianity. makes me want to read more about the theory that Jesus spent his missing years in India or Tibet and tried to teach Buddhism in modern day Israel and instead founded what is now called Christianity.
The walking on water bit can be a part of advanced Yoga. Intersting true incident. Around 180 years ago, the guru of our sect was travelling and someone came up to him and told him that he could walk on water after years of Yoga. The guru said, what you've done after all of these years is worth 2 paisa(100 paisa equals 1 rupee) because that boatman over there can take me to the other side of the river for that amount of money. So in our sect, the emphasis has always been on personal development, fighting our own desires re: greed, lust, ego, jealousy etc while offering worship to God.
But, for some reason, I don't think further posting by me is going to be productive and I'm not interested in religious pissing contests so I'm done.

covenant
04-02-06, 02:24 PM
Hey Summer Wind, do you have a myspace page?

Graftenberg
04-02-06, 02:24 PM
I don't have a link, this is just from memory--- The twin towers have 30,000+ people inside on a normal day, but when they were hit only 3,000 people were inside and died. I think God saved 27,000+ people!!! Do you praise God for saving those lives?




So he just let 3000 people die then? What is there to praise in that?

Summer_Wind
04-02-06, 03:36 PM
So he just let 3000 people die then? What is there to praise in that?

It was there time to go. God has a plan, and they are a part of it. Just because they died does not mean their soul is gone. Maybe some of them who died in the towers were not good people? Maybe some of them were greedy, or gay or were about to do very bad things. Others might have lived a good life and it was just their time. For example, and I don't know this to be true, I'm just guessing- Maybe that investment firm that lost everyone was about to become the next Enron. Maybe God saved thousands of people from losing their retirement. There are many possible reasons those 3,000 were in the building. But the bigger picture is 30,000+ were supposed to be in the twin towers. But somehow, there were only 3,000. It is obvious God wanted 27,000 to continue living.

Graftenberg
04-02-06, 03:41 PM
It was there time to go. God has a plan, and they are a part of it. Just because they died does not mean their soul is gone. Maybe some of them who died in the towers were not good people? Maybe some of them were greedy, or gay or were about to do very bad things. Others might have lived a good life and it was just their time. For example, and I don't know this to be true, I'm just guessing- Maybe that investment firm that lost everyone was about to become the next Enron. Maybe God saved thousands of people from losing their retirement. There are many possible reasons those 3,000 were in the building. But the bigger picture is 30,000+ were supposed to be in the twin towers. But somehow, there were only 3,000. It is obvious God wanted 27,000 to continue living.


So you are saying that of the 3000 to die that some might have died because they were gay but of the 27000 that lived odds are that some of them are gay also. So that would mean that god has a plan for them also. Right? That he, god, wanted them to continue living.

JasonF
04-02-06, 04:09 PM
Let's not be too quick to accept Summer Wind's 30,000 people figure. Recall that the attacks took place around 9:00 -- before many people get to work. Recall also that the collapses didn't occur until hours after the planes impacted -- hours that were spent evacuating as many people as possible.

movielib
04-02-06, 04:38 PM
Let's not be too quick to accept Summer Wind's 30,000 people figure. Recall that the attacks took place around 9:00 -- before many people get to work. Recall also that the collapses didn't occur until hours after the planes impacted -- hours that were spent evacuating as many people as possible.
Just what I was going to say. I figure there were probably about as many people there at that time as on any normal work day.

The Cow
04-02-06, 05:18 PM
Hindus don't worship cows in the sense that they think the cow is God. Cows are supposed to be respected and bowed down to.
Damn straight! :up:

ShallowHal
04-02-06, 05:37 PM
It was there time to go.
So if I walk up to you with a gun and shoot you in the head, it's your time to go? What if I change my mind? What if I change my mind again, and I shoot? I'm the one choosing what to do, it's not some predestined plan. Unless you think movies were only created so there could be DVDs, and the internet was created so there would be a DVD site, and the off topic forum you troll exists only to cause your death exactly when it's planned.

This is one of the many reasons I think religions are a crock. Every person interprets their own version of what they think it means. Have you ever thought about what would happen if all but 20 humans die, and you carry on the message you believe? It will not be the same one you were told, and the people who hear it will not believe the same things you believe. Maybe, just maybe, that's happened a few times before, and what you believe (because you've been told to accept it blindly) is nothing close to what really happened. But hey, you have to believe it, because if you don't, there's that hell place.

It's like a giant game of telephone, then translated from another language that doesn't know what the words mean.

al_bundy
04-02-06, 07:42 PM
I don't have a link, this is just from memory--- The twin towers have 30,000+ people inside on a normal day, but when they were hit only 3,000 people were inside and died. I think God saved 27,000+ people!!! Do you praise God for saving those lives?

We all have Gods master plan. He wants us to live a certain way, and some people in our community think they are smarter than God. That is the awful sin that causes suffering.


first plane hit around 8:45am so they weren't full and people were still arriving for work. There were a lot more than 3000 people in there at the time. They didn't collapse until around 10am for the first tower. I know since I saw it happen.

al_bundy
04-02-06, 07:48 PM
It was there time to go. God has a plan, and they are a part of it. Just because they died does not mean their soul is gone. Maybe some of them who died in the towers were not good people? Maybe some of them were greedy, or gay or were about to do very bad things. Others might have lived a good life and it was just their time. For example, and I don't know this to be true, I'm just guessing- Maybe that investment firm that lost everyone was about to become the next Enron. Maybe God saved thousands of people from losing their retirement. There are many possible reasons those 3,000 were in the building. But the bigger picture is 30,000+ were supposed to be in the twin towers. But somehow, there were only 3,000. It is obvious God wanted 27,000 to continue living.


from what I remember the owner of Cantor Fitzgerald gave the surviving families a lot of money out of his own pocket in addition to the insurance and other monies they got. And the company made up some new financial service and is still around and doing pretty well. It wasn't anything like Enron since it is still a private company and doesn't have any stock to run up for suckers to make the CEO rich and others poor.

al_bundy
04-02-06, 07:53 PM
Hindus don't worship cows in the sense that they think the cow is God. Cows are supposed to be respected and bowed down to. For example, after my morning prayers I bow down and touch the feet of my father and mother. That doesn't mean that I think they are God.

The walking on water bit can be a part of advanced Yoga. Intersting true incident. Around 180 years ago, the guru of our sect was travelling and someone came up to him and told him that he could walk on water after years of Yoga. The guru said, what you've done after all of these years is worth 2 paisa(100 paisa equals 1 rupee) because that boatman over there can take me to the other side of the river for that amount of money. So in our sect, the emphasis has always been on personal development, fighting our own desires re: greed, lust, ego, jealousy etc while offering worship to God.
But, for some reason, I don't think further posting by me is going to be productive and I'm not interested in religious pissing contests so I'm done.


Supposedly in the 1800's some Russian visited a Tibetian monastery and saw some writings from 2000 years ago about a middle easterner who was there studying. There are also several interesting similarities like the exact same number of beads on a set of prayer beads in Buddhism and Christianity.

al_bundy
04-02-06, 07:54 PM
Well boys and girls, I'm off to Vegas (Sin City) now. I wonder if this (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=441607&highlight=vegas) will happen to me again? ;)

You guys be good while I'm gone and I'll talk to you on Thursday or so.

Take care, Chris

look out for fiery mountains falling out of the sky

RunBandoRun
04-03-06, 08:28 AM
Jesus is the ONLY way to God. Any Christian who believes something different is not a Christian.

I beg your pardon?

It's very easy to have blind faith, but the glory of God is intelligence. Think about your beliefs -- don't just swallow whatever your pastor or the Southern Baptist Convention tells you. Your attitude is the exact opposite of what Christ teaches us.

Venusian
04-03-06, 08:38 AM
I beg your pardon?

It's very easy to have blind faith, but the glory of God is intelligence. Think about your beliefs -- don't just swallow whatever your pastor or the Southern Baptist Convention tells you. Your attitude is the exact opposite of what Christ teaches us.

first off, in case there is any question for anyone in this thread, Summer Wind does not represent the views of any Christian I know.



but for the above post, I think it is an almost universally accepted view in Christianity that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Do you disagree/

RunBandoRun
04-03-06, 08:58 AM
I think it is an almost universally accepted view in Christianity that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Do you disagree/

I disagree that the Christian interpretation of Jesus is the only correct one. As I said above, I think all religions have a piece of the truth. How that fits together is something we won't know until God brings us all together.

Venusian
04-03-06, 09:27 AM
I disagree that the Christian interpretation of Jesus is the only correct one. As I said above, I think all religions have a piece of the truth. How that fits together is something we won't know until God brings us all together.
but you do agree that that is the "Christian interpretation", right?

RunBandoRun
04-03-06, 09:30 AM
but you do agree that that is the "Christian interpretation", right?

I agree that some Christians think salvation can only be found in Jesus Christ.

bhk
04-03-06, 02:08 PM
Summer Wind does not represent the views of any Christian I know.


Maybe you haven't met them because you're already a believer, I've met plenty of them.

Venusian
04-03-06, 02:13 PM
Maybe you haven't met them because you're already a believer, I've met plenty of them.
not sure what already being a believer would have to do with it

bhk
04-03-06, 02:52 PM
not sure what already being a believer would have to do with it

You're christian right? Therefore no one would tell you to accept Christ or go to hell, you're already on the right team.

HistoryProf
04-03-06, 03:04 PM
this thread makes the baby jesus cry.

Venusian
04-03-06, 03:07 PM
You're christian right? Therefore no one would tell you to accept Christ or go to hell, you're already on the right team.
possible, but most people don't think i'm a christian by looking at me. it's the whole brown thing.


Christians do believe that if you don't accept Christ you will go to hell. I meant more his harsh style and thoughts taht muslims worship a rock, etc.

atlantamoi
04-03-06, 03:11 PM
As I said above, I think all religions have a piece of the truth. How that fits together is something we won't know until God brings us all together. Personally, I would have a harder time believing a little of each religion than just chucking the whole idea of religion out the window.
Especially when most religions teach they are the only correct one.

bhk
04-03-06, 03:22 PM
Christians do believe that if you don't accept Christ you will go to hell. I meant more his harsh style and thoughts taht muslims worship a rock, etc.

Ok, I get it now. Still, saying someone is going to hell even when said nicely is kind of harsh.

Summer_Wind
04-03-06, 03:24 PM
Christians do believe that if you don't accept Christ you will go to hell. I meant more his harsh style and thoughts taht muslims worship a rock, etc.

It is not as harsh as burning in the lake of fire!! And muslims do worship a false religion and worship a rock. They all must go there once in their life, for what?

Here is the truth. There is only one God and the ONLY way to God is through Jesus. There is no other way. Jesus walked the earth, and NO other religion has that proof. They might try and distort things by saying they had profits or spirits, but that is not God! That is the devil trying to trick people.

All false religions and idols, like all atheists, try and separate us from God.

RunBandoRun
04-03-06, 03:34 PM
It is not as harsh as burning in the lake of fire!! And muslims do worship a false religion and worship a rock. They all must go there once in their life, for what?

Here is the truth. There is only one God and the ONLY way to God is through Jesus. There is no other way. Jesus walked the earth, and NO other religion has that proof. They might try and distort things by saying they had profits or spirits, but that is not God! That is the devil trying to trick people.

All false religions and idols, like all atheists, try and separate us from God.

How seriously can you be taken when you can't even spell the word "prophet?" Again -- do some reading. Blind faith avails little. Learned study avails much.

BDB
04-03-06, 03:45 PM
It is not as harsh as burning in the lake of fire!! And muslims do worship a false religion and worship a rock. They all must go there once in their life, for what?


curious what you think of the following.

Lourdes
Fatima
Knock
Medjugorje

My parents are catholics and believe that making the pilgrimage to any of those sites helps you get closer to heaven, in fact they are both going to Medjugorje right after Easter and dad's going to Lourdes as a helper in July.

bhk
04-03-06, 04:44 PM
I don't think he's saying going on a pilgramage means that you'll go to hell.

Numanoid
04-03-06, 04:50 PM
Christians do believe that if you don't accept Christ you will go to hell. I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that.

BDB
04-03-06, 04:59 PM
I don't think he's saying going on a pilgramage means that you'll go to hell.


He's mocking the muslims who visit the wailing wall.

Breakfast with Girls
04-03-06, 07:25 PM
He's mocking the muslims who visit the wailing wall.I don't know too many Muslims who visit the Wailing Wall. :lol:

He's talking about the Ka'ba, even though he doesn't know the name of it, or what it's about. It was revealed to Mohammed that the Ka'ba (near Mecca) was a place of worship ordained by God and built by Ibrahim and Ismail (Abraham and Ishmael). Mohammed's tribe was in charge of it, but according to the Qur'an it had become filled with idols. When Mohammed and the Muslims took over Mecca, all of the idols within were destroyed.

There are various Arab traditions associated with it, like throwing stones at one of three pillars representing Iblis (Satan) and kissing the black stone on the side. Some say it was a gift from Jibreel (Gabriel) -- it's actually probably a meteorite -- and that's the "rock" that Summer Breeze is talking about, I'm guessing.

There were also historical and political reasons why the pilgrimage to it was beneficial to the Muslims of his day, but anyway, Muslims hardly worship a rock.

ItsGreekToMe
04-04-06, 02:38 AM
It was there time to go. God has a plan, and they are a part of it. Just because they died does not mean their soul is gone. Maybe some of them who died in the towers were not good people? Maybe some of them were greedy, or gay or were about to do very bad things. Others might have lived a good life and it was just their time.

Huh. Bad = greedy. Bad = gay?

Are people who lie 'bad' as well?

"If I ever met a seller like you, I would open 10 different accounts at ebay all with pre-paid credit cards. And I would spam you with negative feedback.

Have a nice day." -- Summer_Wind - 03-24-06, 11:10 AM

Good thing you weren't in the towers that day. You may have been a part of God's plan.

Summer_Wind
04-04-06, 02:51 AM
Huh. Bad = greedy. Bad = gay?

Are people who lie 'bad' as well?


Yes, God says that homosexuality is wrong and a sin, and it will prevent entry into heaven.

Telling a lie is different. If forgivness is asked for, God will forgive most sins. There are some sins which can not be forgiven. Homosexuality is a mortal sin. Greed can be a mortal sin, for example stealing from the poor is a mortal sin.

ItsGreekToMe
04-04-06, 03:07 AM
Yes, God says that homosexuality is wrong and a sin, and it will prevent entry into heaven.

Really? Where does it say that? What else is forbidden in the same passage? What version of the Bible? King James? Who was King James? Take your time.

Telling a lie is different. If forgivness is asked for, God will forgive most sins. There are some sins which can not be forgiven. Homosexuality is a mortal sin. Greed can be a mortal sin, for example stealing from the poor is a mortal sin.

So, you can sin and be forgiven, but NOT others? Being forgiven for sin asserts that you have changed and walked away from the sin that you have been forgiven for, correct? In other words, you can't just say 'forgive me' and keep commiting the same sins over and over again, correct? Does this mean that you have changed your ways and no longer advocate lying and commiting fraud? Have you been forgiven?

Venusian
04-04-06, 07:14 AM
Yes, God says that homosexuality is wrong and a sin, and it will prevent entry into heaven.

where does it say in the Bible that it prevents entry into heaven?

Telling a lie is different. If forgivness is asked for, God will forgive most sins. There are some sins which can not be forgiven. Homosexuality is a mortal sin. Greed can be a mortal sin, for example stealing from the poor is a mortal sin.

some sins that can not be forgiven? I've only seen one mentioned in the Bible, you use a plural sinS. what are these sinS?

what is a "mortal sin"? Is there an immortal sin? please explain the difference and where these are enumerated. Thanks.

ShallowHal
04-04-06, 07:24 AM
Am I the only one who think Summer's_Eve is just here for fun? 99% of her posts are in OT, it usually takes people alot longer to get bored with CH and cool non region 1 sets, yes? :lol:

RunBandoRun
04-04-06, 08:13 AM
where does it say in the Bible that it prevents entry into heaven?


some sins that can not be forgiven? I've only seen one mentioned in the Bible, you use a plural sinS. what are these sinS?

what is a "mortal sin"? Is there an immortal sin? please explain the difference and where these are enumerated. Thanks.

It always amuses me that so many people who consider homosexuality a mortal sin completely accept divorce. Jesus Christ had nothing to say about homosexuality, but He unquestionably condemned divorce on more than one occasion -- yet someone who's racked up a marriage or two feels justified in condemning homosexuals for their "sin."

Not saying Summer_Wind has been divorced ... I'd be more surprised that anyone would marry him in the first place. :D But just a thought.

Venusian
04-04-06, 08:24 AM
Jesus Christ had nothing to say about homosexuality
some people would argue with you on that one

RunBandoRun
04-04-06, 08:25 AM
some people would argue with you on that one

But they'd lose. St. Paul wasn't keen on the nancyboys, I agree, but St. Paul was not Jesus.

Venusian
04-04-06, 08:27 AM
But they'd lose. St. Paul wasn't keen on the nancyboys, I agree, but St. Paul was not Jesus.
the arguement would be from those who believe the Bible is the divine Word of God. If the entire Bible is the Word of God and Jesus is God that means it is all words of Jesus, hence he said it, but not directly

RunBandoRun
04-04-06, 08:28 AM
the arguement would be from those who believe the Bible is the divine Word of God. If the entire Bible is the Word of God and Jesus is God that means it is all words of Jesus, hence he said it, but not directly

I will concede that. :D

EDITED TO ADD that I understand the basis for the argument, even though I don't agree with it.

al_bundy
04-04-06, 11:45 AM
But they'd lose. St. Paul wasn't keen on the nancyboys, I agree, but St. Paul was not Jesus.

I think there was a tidbit about homosexuality in Deuteronomy, but I can't remember what part. All I remember is that it said that it was an abomination.

Since St. Paul was a very conservative Jew and the Jews had a long history of anti-homosexuality I think this is where this comes from. The Greeks were more open about it, but most of them became turks in the 1400's.

Breakfast with Girls
04-04-06, 12:00 PM
I think there was a tidbit about homosexuality in Deuteronomy, but I can't remember what part. All I remember is that it said that it was an abomination.The laws about homosexuality come from Leviticus, the same book that condemns eating lobster, crab, and shrimp, getting a tattoo, wearing clothes with two types of fabric, and men shaving their face. Also, autopsies and modern funeral preparations are an abomination.

But that's okay, because everyone condemning homosexuality has a beard and avoids Red Lobster, right?

Good news, though: having sex with your slave girls is okay, so long as you sacrifice a ram afterward.

al_bundy
04-04-06, 12:05 PM
i don't pay attention to most of that since the rules were made up by desert nomads for their lifestyle. But now that I think of it, I think it was Leviticus. There was a whole page of things you aren't allowed to do and eat.

I still don't know why Muslims don't like alcohol since the early Muslims were probably Christians and Jews living in Saudi Arabia. Probably something about the local culture.

Breakfast with Girls
04-04-06, 12:07 PM
I still don't know why Muslims don't like alcohol since the early Muslims were probably Christians and Jews living in Saudi Arabia. Probably something about the local culture.The first Muslims were Muslims, and they don't drink alcohol because it's forbidden in the Qur'an.

Venusian
04-04-06, 12:42 PM
It's not only in Leviticus, it is also in Romans.

Breakfast with Girls
04-04-06, 01:50 PM
It's not only in Leviticus, it is also in Romans.Which was written by Paul, as Vibiana said.

al_bundy
04-04-06, 02:25 PM
The first Muslims were Muslims, and they don't drink alcohol because it's forbidden in the Qur'an.

what were they before Mohammed? There was a large Jewish community in Mecca at the time of Mohammed. Most likely there was a good sized Christian community as well.

Alien Redrum
04-04-06, 03:09 PM
Here is the truth. There is only one God and the ONLY way to God is through Jesus. There is no other way. Jesus walked the earth, and NO other religion has that proof.

Um, where is the proof that Jesus walked the earth?

Breakfast with Girls
04-04-06, 04:34 PM
what were they before Mohammed? There was a large Jewish community in Mecca at the time of Mohammed. Most likely there was a good sized Christian community as well.Pagan Arabs. There were indeed many wealthy Jewish communities throughout the area before Mohammed (very few Christians, though). However, it was the pagan Arabs who first converted. Many Jews opted to remain Jewish, even if it meant beheading, slavery, or a large tribute.

Summer_Wind
04-04-06, 04:42 PM
Um, where is the proof that Jesus walked the earth?

Jesus didn't walk the earth alone. There were many witnesses to his miracles.

Numanoid
04-04-06, 04:42 PM
Um, where is the proof that Jesus walked the earth?Where is the proof that Julius Caesar or Socrates walked the earth?

Alien Redrum
04-04-06, 05:01 PM
Where is the proof that Julius Caesar or Socrates walked the earth?

Good point, but I'm curious on how many sources, other than the Bible, speak of Jesus during that time period (honest question, as I don't know). But I'm willing to bet there are more sources that talk of Ceaser during his time period.

I believe in God. But don't throw out "proof" to me, as there is none (not to you directly, just in general). It's faith, and that's cool and I can dig it.

But there's more proof in the theory of evolution than there is of Jesus walking the earth and many people still don't believe it.

al_bundy
04-04-06, 07:08 PM
Jesus was not an uncommon name in Israel at that time. The literal translation is Joshua and Jesus didn't come into use until the 17th centrury. Other than the Apostles the early Christians produced a lot of literature like Aesop's fables. The New Testament as we know it didn't really get organized until the 4th century AD.

I think that just the fact that these stories exist is proof that something happened around that time to trigger it even if it wasn't literaly like it is described in the NT. And people were dying for these beliefs. By the time of Constantine there were already established Christian churches around the Roman Empire.

zekeburger1979
04-05-06, 12:33 AM
Ironic that this came out at the same time as a episode of The Sopranos that talked about the study that said the prayed-to paitents recovered faster then non-prayed paitents.

mrpayroll
04-06-06, 11:57 PM
Wow, I would have never had guessed that Summer_Wind was a woman (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=461224&page=1&pp=40). :eek:

And please let us not bash her(?) here, since she has already been banned.

By the way Vegas was great and no I don't have any incredible stories to tell this time! :)

Chris

al_bundy
04-07-06, 06:32 AM
that would be the gayest screen name for a man

darkside
04-07-06, 06:44 AM
But there's more proof in the theory of evolution than there is of Jesus walking the earth and many people still don't believe it.

We can actually see this guy http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1144254701/img/1.jpgand people still don't believe in evolution, but I am supposed to believe in the divinity and miracles of a guy that lived in a time of messiahs running around everywhere.

1000 years from now there will probably be people that worship Sylvia Brown and John Edwards. Well, that is actually unfair. I like Jesus, he was a cool guy whether divine or not. Those two are assholes, but with people believing crap like Scientology which is so recent we know its bullshit I have to question what people believe, especially with little or no evidence.

Fincher Fan
04-07-06, 06:49 AM
Reading all these posts makes me glad I started a suicide cult. Who's with me?

al_bundy
04-07-06, 08:20 AM
We can actually see this guy http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1144254701/img/1.jpgand people still don't believe in evolution, but I am supposed to believe in the divinity and miracles of a guy that lived in a time of messiahs running around everywhere.

1000 years from now there will probably be people that worship Sylvia Brown and John Edwards. Well, that is actually unfair. I like Jesus, he was a cool guy whether divine or not. Those two are assholes, but with people believing crap like Scientology which is so recent we know its bullshit I have to question what people believe, especially with little or no evidence.

Until around 300ad a lot of people thought Christianity was bull shit and would have equated it to scientology since there were so few Christians running around back then.

RunBandoRun
04-07-06, 08:22 AM
Until around 300ad a lot of people thought Christianity was bull shit and would have equated it to scientology since there were so few Christians running around back then.

And the ones who were, had lions running after them so nobody wanted to get too close. :D

mrpayroll
04-07-06, 08:26 AM
Reading all these posts makes me glad I started a suicide cult. Who's with me?

You go first! ;)

Chris

Bushdog
04-07-06, 01:46 PM
Of my few regrets in life was not setting up a script to watch summer_wind's posts. I was waiting for the burnout.

Holy Jackson
04-07-06, 02:22 PM
We can actually see this guy http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/sci_nat_enl_1144254701/img/1.jpgand people still don't believe in evolution, but I am supposed to believe in the divinity and miracles of a guy that lived in a time of messiahs running around everywhere.

1000 years from now there will probably be people that worship Sylvia Brown and John Edwards. Well, that is actually unfair. I like Jesus, he was a cool guy whether divine or not. Those two are assholes, but with people believing crap like Scientology which is so recent we know its bullshit I have to question what people believe, especially with little or no evidence.

Don't believe in evolution. Doubt it. Critisize it. Try to poke holes in the logic or the statements. That's how science works. When you start believing, you stop asking questions and sciences stalls, becomes pseudoscience, then tradition, than canon, and eventually in 2000 years, everybody laughs at your conclusion that the earth was the center of the universe or something.

mrpayroll
04-08-06, 11:47 AM
Of my few regrets in life was not setting up a script to watch summer_wind's posts. I was waiting for the burnout.

There will be more summer_wind's in The Others future, so don't worry! ;)

Chris