Churches burned in Alabama

[Venusian]

Fires Reported at 3 More Ala. Churches

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - Fires damaged three more rural churches in Alabama following rash of suspected arsons that burned five churches south of Birmingham last week, a state official said Tuesday.

Ragan Ingram, a spokesman for the state insurance agency that oversees fire investigations, said the fires were at a church near Aliceville in Pickens County, near Emelle in Sumter Country and near Boligee in Greene County.

He said the extent of damage was not immediately known and it wasn't immediately clear when the three churches burned. State and federal fire investigators were sent to the scenes, he said.

"Obviously we're going to investigate these as suspected arsons," Ingram said.

Early Friday, three rural Baptist churches were destroyed and two others were damaged along major roads in rural Bibb County, about 25 miles south of Birmingham. The three fires reported Tuesday were in neighboring and sparsely populated counties in west Alabama near the Mississippi line.

Ingram said that in the past five years there have been 58 church fires in Alabama, including the three reported Tuesday. He said 19 were ruled arsons.

Agents investigating the Bibb County fire said Tuesday they were looking for a dark-colored sport-utility vehicle in connection with the blazes.

Members of Old Union Baptist Church in Brierfield told The Associated Press in interviews that they saw a dark Nissan Pathfinder near the building as they arrived to put out a fire shortly after 4 a.m. Friday.

The state fire marshal's office, meanwhile, said a fire Thursday afternoon at a church in rural Chilton County was accidental and unrelated to the others.


I didn't hear about the five from last week until today. Was this big news?

[Vandelay_Inds]

So, who is behind this?

[Myster X]

It's 1996 all over again.

[Venusian]

Found this when I was googling for more info:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/February/07/local/stories/03local.htm


Five Santa Cruz churches target of 'hate crime'

SANTA CRUZ — Vandals struck five Santa Cruz churches, a Christian bookstore and the historic Santa Cruz Mission Adobe on Saturday night in what police are calling a hate crime.

The vandals used a stencil to leave specially crafted messages and images about a half-foot across. One depicted a cross with an equal sign followed by a swastika. Church leaders said another stated "Abort Christ," a message one minister called "stunning and distressing."

[Groucho]

and yet the athiests come on hear and tell us they have morales LYERS!

[Venusian]

eh, make that 4 more, not 3 more:

http://www.nbc4.com/news/6808946/detail.html

[bhk]

They were showing the parishoners of one of the churches having a service in a hall this Sunday and I only saw white people there.

[Venusian]

rural alabama is going to be pretty white ;)

[bhk]

The way the press is playing up the hate crime aspect makes one think otherwise.

[Venusian]

you can have hate against a religion, right? like anti-semitism?

[kvrdave]

I heard about the 5 earlier and was suprised there was no thread. On the radio they actually took the time to point out that it was 4 "White" churches and 1 "Black" church. How freaking stupid, but maybe that is the way Alabama still is. Nice to be in part of the country where you don't have things labeled by race.

[bhk]

you can have hate against a religion, right? like anti-semitism?

In this country hate against religion in general(unless the religion is Islam) and christianity in particular isn't considered a hate crime by the press.

[Venusian]

I heard about the 5 earlier and was suprised there was no thread. On the radio they actually took the time to point out that it was 4 "White" churches and 1 "Black" church. How freaking stupid, but maybe that is the way Alabama still is. Nice to be in part of the country where you don't have things labeled by race.
church is still the most segregated institution in the country. i'm guessing its the media calling it a black or white church as i doubt the churches themselves call it that

[Vandelay_Inds]

In this country hate against religion in general(unless the religion is Islam)

not me... I hate them all :shrug:






;)

[Vandelay_Inds]

rural alabama is going to be pretty white

As opposed to ugly black? -ohbfrank-

[sjrab16]

Found this when I was googling for more info:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/February/07/local/stories/03local.htm


Five Santa Cruz churches target of 'hate crime'

SANTA CRUZ — Vandals struck five Santa Cruz churches, a Christian bookstore and the historic Santa Cruz Mission Adobe on Saturday night in what police are calling a hate crime.

The vandals used a stencil to leave specially crafted messages and images about a half-foot across. One depicted a cross with an equal sign followed by a swastika. Church leaders said another stated "Abort Christ," a message one minister called "stunning and distressing."

As liberal as Santa Cruz is, I am shocked that they have so many churches.

[Tommy Ceez]

So burning a church is kinda bad, but burning one with hate in your heart is worse!

How stupid

[Groucho]

As liberal as Santa Cruz is, I am shocked that they have so many churches.Liberals don't go to church?

[wendersfan]

In this country hate against religion in general(unless the religion is Islam) and christianity in particular isn't considered a hate crime by the press.Lately a lot of my athiest friends are coming around. Some of them now think Islam is almost as bad as Christianity. :lol:

[Vandelay_Inds]

So burning a church is kinda bad, but burning one with hate in your heart is worse!

How stupid

Yeah. Violence is violence.

[Thor Simpson]

So burning a church is kinda bad, but burning one with hate in your heart is worse!

How stupid
Well, burning an embassy is very bad but burning one with hate in your heart is apparently just regrettable. :shrug:

[grundle]

The churches burned because they were made of wood. Therefore, they must be witches.

[Jason]

So burning a church is kinda bad, but burning one with hate in your heart is worse!

Does anyone ever burn a church out of happiness?

[DVD Polizei]

In this country hate against religion in general(unless the religion is Islam) and christianity in particular isn't considered a hate crime by the press.

Hate against the Christian religion isn't considered a hate crime by the press?

Where did you get that idea?

It's a fact that most hate crimes are initiated against minorities. Most minorities are not Christian. If you disagree, please check the FBI stats on hate crimes. This is reflected in the media. More media stories are about minority hate crimes, who are Jewish, Islamic, Baptist, and whatever else.

I've seen stories about Christians who were victims of hate crimes. But this is VERY rare. In fact, I may have to use Google to find anything.

You don't see homosexuals killing Christians that often. You don't see Blacks dragging white men behind their trucks that often. Most hate crimes are initiated against minorities. And then add the fact most minorities are NOT Christian, you begin to understand why the "leftist biased evildoer media" is not reporting about it.

Now, in other countries, Christians are the minority and they are persecuted and harassed much more.

It's kind of interesting when you think about it. Technically, men who identify themselves as "Chrisitians" in the US, are the majority who are committing the hate crimes. "God don't likey dem faggerts!" "God don't likey dem womenz gettin' 'borshens!"

In other countries, it's men who are identified with Islam, who are committing the atrocities.

[Cancer Man]

Posted by Venusian: you can have hate against a religion, right? like anti-semitism?

But Judaism is a religion right? You're not falling for the myth that the Jews are a distint ethnic group, Venusian?

[Venusian]

But Judaism is a religion right? You're not falling for the myth that the Jews are a distint ethnic group, Venusian?
that's what i'm saying...antisemitism is hate against religion.

although i think historically jews were a distinct ethnic group

[JasonF]

and yet the athiests come on hear and tell us they have morales LYERS!

WE DO HAVE MORALES HERE'S A PICTURE TO PROVE IT:
http://www.fansites.com/jpg/display.asp?pic=6148-morales_esai-07.jpg.jpg
IF YOU DON'T STOPE BELIEFING IN GOD WE WILL KILL MORALES AND IT WILL ALL BE YOUR FALT!!11!!!

[Draven]

It's kind of interesting when you think about it. Technically, men who identify themselves as "Chrisitians" in the US, are the majority who are committing the hate crimes. "God don't likey dem faggerts!" "God don't likey dem womenz gettin' 'borshens!"


Don't confuse the discussion with logic and facts.

[Geofferson]

that's what i'm saying...antisemitism is hate against religion.

although i think historically jews were a distinct ethnic group
Right - Jews are both a religion and ethnicity.

That is why there can be both atheist and secular Jews (where you would not hear of an atheist or secular Christian, for example).

[grundle]

I was born Jewish but I converted to atheism.

[Tommy Ceez]

I was born Jewish but I converted to atheism.

Actually, you were born athiest, but taught Judiasm

[Cancer Man]

Posted by Geofferson: That is why there can be both atheist and secular Jews (where you would not hear of an atheist or secular Christian, for example).

Jews never have and never will be a distinct ethnic group.

How you define a highly convoluted and nebulous "ethnic" group such as the Jews is pretty hard, plus this broad classification of a highly varied cultural group only serves the ends of "special interests" groups who have their own narrow minded and deluded views on the world.

And Semitic Arabs who hate Judaism and wish to push Israel into the sea are classified as "anti-semites". A bit of f**king oxymoron isn't it?

It certainly is when Arab "Palestinians" are a "purer" Semitic ethic group than the Ashkenazi Jews ever hope to be (although Sephardi Jews are closer to the "Palestinian" Arabs).

[Geofferson]

Jews never have and never will be a distinct ethnic group.

How you define a highly convoluted and nebulous "ethnic" group such as the Jews is pretty hard, plus this broad classification of a highly varied cultural group only serves the ends of "special interests" groups who have their own narrow minded and deluded views on the world.
One can become a Jew in two ways: 1) By affirmation of the Jewish religion and 2) by being born to a Jewish parent (originally the father, through most of Jewish history the mother, in Reform Judaism today the father or the mother).

And Semitic Arabs who hate Judaism and wish to push Israel into the sea are classified as "anti-semites". A bit of f**king oxymoron isn't it?
There can be and are self-hating Jews - people born Jewish who devote their lives to harming the Jewish people - because no one born a Jew can be read out of the Jewish people.

[Venusian]

Jews never have and never will be a distinct ethnic group.

hisotrically, "Jew" referred to someone from Judah. It could however be argued that they were not distinct enough from others in the area to be considered an ethinic group, but it was not originally a religious term

[Cancer Man]

Posted by Geofferson:
One can become a Jew in two ways: 1) By affirmation of the Jewish religion and 2) by being born to a Jewish parent (originally the father, through most of Jewish history the mother, in Reform Judaism today the father or the mother).

Judaism has a cultural basis, sure, but the Jewish mothers may still come from many different ethnic backgrounds and there are Jewish converts.

Judaism is more of a cultural idea than a true "ethnicity".

And of course Jews convert to other religions, but are still be deemed as "Jewish" by non-Jewish bigots or highly tribalistic Jews. But then again a Catholic who converts to Protestantism could still be deemed a "Catholic" by people who are born Protestant who will never accept the convert as "one of them".

Posted by Geofferson:
There can be and are self-hating Jews - people born Jewish who devote their lives to harming the Jewish people - because no one born a Jew can be read out of the Jewish people.

Of course there were Jewish collaborators who assisted with the interminable European pogroms in the Middle Ages and the Holocaust during WWII, true.

But your either not understanding or ignoring what I said about anti-Semitic Semitic Arabs being an ironic notion.

Here is a full definition of who the Semitic people are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
Semitic

Semitic is a linguistic term referring to a subdivision of largely Middle Eastern Afro-Asiatic languages, the Semitic languages, as well as their speakers' corresponding cultures, and ethnicities. Although there is much debate about the scope of the word's "racial" use in the context of population genetics and history, as a linguistic term the language family is well-defined to include ancient and modern versions of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Hebrew, Maltese, Syriac, Tigrigna, et al.

Origin

The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible (Genesis 5.32, 6.10, 10.21), or more precisely from the Greek form of that name, namely Σημ (Sēm); the noun form referring to a person is Semite. The negative form of the adjective anti-Semitic is almost always used to mean "anti-Jewish", specifically.

The concept of a "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendents of his cursed brother Ham. In Genesis 10:21-31 Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and others: the Biblical ancestors of the Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah). Shem is also described in Genesis as the father of the Elamites and the descendants of Lud, whose languages were not Semitic.

The Proto-Semitic peoples, ancestors of the Semites in the Middle East before the break-up of the hypothesized original proto-Semitic language into various modern Semitic languages, are thought to have been originally from the Arabian Peninsula.

Language

The modern linguistic meaning of "Semitic" is therefore derived from, but not identical to Biblical usage. In a linguistic context the Semitic languages are a subgroup of the larger Afro-Asiatic language family (according to Joseph Greenberg's widely accepted classification) and include, among others, Akkadian, the ancient language of Babylon, Amharic, the official language of Ethiopia, Arabic, the largest contemporary Semitic language, Aramaic, the mother-tongue of Jesus, Canaanite, Ge'ez, the ancient language of the Ethiopian Coptic scriptures, Hebrew, Phoenician or Punic, and South Arabian, the ancient language of Sheba/Saba, which today includes Mehri, spoken by only tiny minorities on the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula.

Wildly successful as second languages far beyond their numbers of contemporary first-language speakers, a few Semitic languages today are the base of the sacred literature of some of the world's great religions, including Islam (Arabic), Judaism (Hebrew and Aramaic), and Orthodox Christianity (Aramaic and Ge'ez). Millions learn these as a second language (or an archaic version of their modern tongues): many Muslims learn to read and recite Classical Arabic, the language of the Qur'an, and Jews all over the world outside of Israel with other first languages speak and study Hebrew, the language of the Torah, Midrash, and other Jewish scriptures.

It should be noted that Berber, Coptic, Ancient Egyptian, Hausa, Somali, and many other related languages within the wider area of Northern Africa and the Middle East do not belong to the Semitic group, but to the larger Afro-Asiatic language family of which the Semitic languages are also a subgroup. Other ancient and modern Middle Eastern languages — Armenian, Kurdish, Persian, Turkish, ancient Sumerian, and Nubian — do not belong to the larger Afro-Asiatic language family and are unrelated to it (or, to be more precise, possibly far more remotely related). (Note, the first three of these languages are Indo-European.)

For a complete list of Semitic and Afro-Asiatic languages, see the Ethnologue's list.

Geography

Semitic peoples and their languages in modern and ancient historic times have covered a broad area bridging Africa, Western Asia and the Arabian Peninsula. The earliest historic (written) evidences of them are found in the Fertile Crescent, an area encompassing the Babylonian and Assyrian civilizations along the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, extending northwest into southern Asia Minor (modern Turkey) and the Levant along the eastern Mediterranean. (Today this same region is populated by Arabic speakers except for Israel, where modern Hebrew was reintroduced in the 20th century as the national language.) Early traces of Semitic speakers are found, too, in South Arabian inscriptions in Yemen and later, in Roman times, in Nabataean inscriptions from Petra (modern Jordan) south into Arabia. (Here, too, Arabic has largely won out over the original Semitic tongues.) Later expansions of Semitic languages and peoples are found into the Horn of Africa, especially Ethiopia, the last great holdout of South Semitic languages, and into North Africa at two widely separated periods. The first expansion occurred with the ancient Phoenicians, the name given by the Greeks to the Canaanites, along the southern Mediterranean Sea all the way to the Atlantic Ocean (colonies which included ancient Rome's nemesis Carthage). The second, a millennium later, occurred with the expansion of the Muslim armies and Arabic in the 7th-8th centuries AD, which, at their height, controlled the Hispanic Peninsula and Sicily. Arab Muslim expansion is also responsible for modern Arabic's presence from Mauretania, on the Atlantic coast of West Africa, to the Red Sea in the northeastern corner of Africa, and its reach south along the Nile River through traditionally non-Semitic territory, as far as the northern half of Sudan, where, as the national language, non-Arab Sudanese even farther south must learn it. Semitic languages today are also spoken in Malta (where an Italian-influenced dialect of North African Arabic is spoken) and on the island of Socotra in the Indian Ocean between Yemen and Somalia, where a dying vestige of South Arabian is spoken in the form of Soqotri.

Religion

In a religious context, the term Semitic can refer to the religions associated with the speakers of these languages: thus Judaism, Christianity and Islam are often described as "Semitic religions," though the term Abrahamic religions is more commonly used today. A truly comprehensive account of "Semitic" religions would equally include the polytheistic religions (such as the religions of Adad, Hadad) that flourished in the Middle East before the Abrahamic religions.

Ethnicity and "Race"

In Medieval Europe all Asian peoples were thought of as descendents of Shem. By the nineteenth century the term Semitic was confined to the ethnic groups who have historically spoken Semitic languages. These peoples were often considered to be a distinct race. However, some anti-Semitic racial theorists of the time argued that the Semitic peoples arose from the blurring of distinctions between previously separate races. This supposed process was referred to as Semiticization by the race-theorist Arthur de Gobineau. The notion that Semitic identity was a product of racial "confusion" was later taken up by the Nazi ideologue Alfred Rosenberg.

Modern science, in contrast, identifies an ethnic group's common physical descent through genetic research, and analysis of the Semitic peoples suggests that they share a significant common ancestry. Though no significant common mitochondrial results have been yielded, Y-chromosomal links between Near-Eastern peoples like the Palestinians, Syrians and ethnic Jews have proved fruitful, despite differences contributed from other groups (see Y-chromosomal Aaron). Although population genetics is still a young science, it seems to indicate that a significant proportion of these peoples' ancestry comes from a common Near Eastern population to which (despite the differences with the Biblical genealogy) the term Semitic has been applied.

The Palestinians are classed as a fully Semitic and not only applies to the Jews/Israelis. All I am saying is that the term "anti-Semite" has totally shifted it's context and not really apply to the hatred of Jews anymore, although it's still lazily applied to people who hate Jews. And the term "anti-Semite" was coined in Germany and Austria during the 19th century by "special interest" groups such as the early Zionists, proto-Nazis and other moronic pseudo-intellectuals of the time.

They thought that classifying bigotry against Jews as anti-Semitism sounded more "technical" or "scientific"... -ohbfrank-

All I am saying the term, "anti-Semite" has taken a life of it's own and is wrongly applied to Semites who hate Israel or Judaism. Nobody can see the irony of it all.

[OldDude]

Apparently, they have caught the little bastards
:banana:

They regarded it as a joke. Regardless of your political persuasion, arson isn't very funny. I suppose soaking them in gasoline and burning them at the stake would be "cruel and unusual."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11726024/
Students say church arsons meant as ‘a joke’
Search continues for 3rd collegian in Alabama case
BREAKING NEWS
NBC News and news services
Updated: 1:20 p.m. ET March 8, 2006
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. - Two college students arrested Wednesday in a string of nine rural Alabama church arsons told authorities that the first fires were set as “a joke” and later blazes were intended as a diversion, federal agents said. A third college student was being sought in the serial arsons.

Benjamin Nathan Moseley and Russell Lee Debusk Jr., both students at Birmingham-Southern College, appeared in federal court Wednesday and were ordered held on church arson charges pending a hearing Friday.

Authorities said they were seeking Matthew Lee Cloyd, who reportedly is a student at the University of Alabama in Birmingham.



The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives made the Alabama church arson case a top priority as scores of agents joined state and local law officers in the probe.

An ATF affidavit said Moseley told agents on Wednesday that he, Cloyd and Debusk went to Bibb County in Cloyd's Toyota sport utility vehicle on Feb. 2 and set fire to five churches. A witness quoted Cloyd as saying Moseley did it "as a joke and it got out of hand," according to the affidavit.

Moseley also told agents the four church fires in west Alabama were set "as a diversion to throw investigators off," an attempt that "obviously did not work," the affidavit said.

The two were arrested Tuesday night, NBC’s Pete Williams reported.

WVTM-TV of Birmingham, citing the state fire marshal’s office, said the two are students at Birmingham Southern College and were arrested at a college dorm.

The third suspect, Cloyd, owns a vehicle that matches the description of a vehicle that witnesses had placed at the scene of several of the fires, WVTM reported.

Investigators analyzed tire tracks and traced the purchase of the tires to Cloyd.

‘We are relieved’
The pastor at one of the destroyed churches said he was told of the arrests by investigators.

“We are relieved. We were fearful while they were on the loose because we did not know their agenda,” said Jim Parker, pastor of the Ashby Baptist Church in Brierfield, which was burned to the ground.

Ten Baptist churches in rural parts of the state were burned by arsonists last month. Nine of the fires — five on Feb. 3 in Bibb County and four on Feb. 7 in west Alabama — have been linked. Another church fire on Feb. 11 in Lamar County has been ruled arson, but investigators have not determined if it is connected to the others.

The ATF has scheduled a mid-day press conference to discuss the case.

No racial pattern
There was no racial pattern — five of the churches had white congregations and five black. All were Baptist, the dominant faith in the region, and mostly in isolated country settings.

A federal source said the apparent motive was that the three students just liked to set and watch fires.

Five of the churches were destroyed and four were damaged, including one in which congregants, alerted during the night that churches were afire, arrived just as the apparent arsonists were leaving. That fire, quickly put out, had been set in the sanctuary near the altar — a pattern in the other church arsons in Bibb County and west Alabama.

[OldDude]

Does anyone ever burn a church out of happiness?

Prophetic words, grasshopper. The students who apparently did it claim it was a joke.

[DVD Polizei]

Send them to prison for 10 years. Maybe their asses can give the prison inmates happiness too. :up:

[movielib]

Send them to prison for 10 years. Maybe their asses can give the prison inmates happiness too. :up:
I think ten years is too short (my wife just suggested 30; I'd go somewhere between). And they should spend the rest of their lives making restitution.

[LiquidSky]

Students say church arsons meant as ‘a joke’

Yeah, arson is a big joke. :mad: I hope they get the maximum sentence for each count of arson.

[Thor Simpson]

Well, as long as they were just kidding.

[classicman2]

Students say church arsons meant as ‘a joke’

Yeah, arson is a big joke. :mad: I hope they get the maximum sentence for each count of arson.


:up:

[Ranger]

I think ten years is too short (my wife just suggested 30; I'd go somewhere between). And they should spend the rest of their lives making restitution.
You would give the same length of punishmnet if they burned private homes and businesses, right?


Just stressing that the law should not view a church burning any differently from a private home or business burning.

[classicman2]

Just stressing that the law should not view a church burning any differently from a private home or business burning.

Tell me you're not serious.

[Ranger]

They're both forms of property, aren't they?

[classicman2]

One has a little more meaning than the other, IMO.

I believe you treat a businessman who burns down his business to collect the insurance money a little differently than folks who maliciously burn churches or schools.

[Rockmjd23]

Tell me you're not serious.
It's not like it's a synogogue or anything ;)

[movielib]

You would give the same length of punishmnet if they burned private homes and businesses, right?
Yes.

Just stressing that the law should not view a church burning any differently from a private home or business burning.
I agree.

One has a little more meaning than the other, IMO.
"Meaning" is subjective. An individual or a businessperson may find just as much "meaning" in their losses.

I do believe restitution, as much as possible in a practical sense, should enter into the punishment for any of them.

[Thor Simpson]

They're both forms of property, aren't they?
Used by different numbers of people, for different purposes.

If someone burned down an old folks home that has a greater impact than a 4 person family home.

There is also the historical value of some of these churches. That could apply to a historical home as well.

Basically, every case is different. I think these are pretty severe.

[Ranger]

One has a little more meaning than the other, IMO.

I believe you treat a businessman who burns down his business to collect the insurance money a little differently than folks who maliciously burn churches or schools.
People don't burn churches for insurance money?

People don't burn homes or business out of hate of religion or race?

[classicman2]

Yes. "Meaning" is subjective. An individual or a businessperson may find just as much "meaning" in their losses.

:lol:

We're talking about the general public.

Do you make that same argument about burning down a school as being the same as an owner burning down his business?

[Ranger]

How about a disgruntled employee sabotaging the business by burning it?

Or after Katrina, looters who trashed a mall that only suffered minor wind damage from the actual storm and set it on fire, heavily damaging a third of the mall and putting 2,000 people out of work and costing the city huge losses in tax revenues? I argue that was a greater harm to society rather than losing a couple of churches.

Or how about kids vandalizing their gym at a high school which gets little attention from authorities but if it was a private school and a chapel was vandalized, that tends to get much more attention.

I am hammering in the point that the inconsistent reactions people seem to have for those things bother me.

[movielib]

:lol:

We're talking about the general public.

Do you make that same argument about burning down a school as being the same as an owner burning down his business?
I wasn't really talking about a person burning his or her own property for insurance. I was talking about an owner's property being burned down by someone else. Be it a home, a business or a church, I find those fairly equivalent. Note that I did not quote or answer the second paragraph of your post #46.

[Thor Simpson]

Or after Katrina, looters who trashed a mall that only suffered minor wind damage from the actual storm and set it on fire, heavily damaging a third of the mall and putting 2,000 people out of work and costing the city huge losses in tax revenues? I argue that was a greater harm to society rather than losing a couple of churches.
Do you think anyone here would disagree? I think you may be generalizing a bit.