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View Full Version : Teenagers are still deliberately getting pregnant to collect welfare.


grundle
01-28-06, 07:47 PM
Whatever you subsidize, you get more of. Teenagers are deliberately getting pregnant so they can collect welfare and food stamps, and have their own apartment at age 18. They are spending the welfare money on gold chains, tattoos, and designer clothes.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06008/633954.stm

Young mothers find comfort in each other

AIU sponsors Duquesne Family Center support group

Sunday, January 08, 2006

By Tim Grant, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

After teasing each other in class all day, the two young women took their quarrel outside the alternative high school and drew a crowd with their screaming and cursing.

Both were in love with the same young man and they had allowed him to get them both pregnant. The two clashed in a war of emotions hinging on which one of them would be his girlfriend.

"You don't understand how mad I was," Shanel Wilson, 18, of Duquesne, later told her friends at the Duquesne Family Center.

Those friends, who listened to her recount the showdown, are part of a support group which meets weekly to eat, laugh and talk about the often bumpy and difficult road they walk each day as teenage parents.

The teenage pregnancy rate is falling nationwide, but in many schools, towns and neighborhoods, some young people still are trading the innocence of carefree youth for the awesome responsibility of raising babies.

Some make the trade willingly and without the kind of stigma that used to isolate many pregnant teens.

"I already knew I was going to have one eventually, so it wasn't a surprise," said Ashley Pitts, 19, of Duquesne, who became pregnant at 15. "There's no shame in getting pregnant. There's a lot of people who have kids. There are 17-year-olds with two kids."

But whether by design or by accident, students who get pregnant today have more opportunities to complete their schooling and more places to turn for help.

This teen parenting support group sponsored by the Allegheny Intermediate Unit comprises about a dozen young women who help each other deal with the challenges of raising children while attending high school.

Ms. Wilson is raising her 1-year-old son, and the other teen in the schoolyard dispute was still pregnant. Ms. Wilson said their emotions flared when the pregnant teen keep tormenting her with details of her affair with the young man they share.

Chelsea Quattrone, who until recently was a counselor at the center, said the support group was "like a group of friends getting together every week and sharing a meal together and playing games that are related to parenting,"

The young women live in Duquesne and are pursuing high school diplomas or GEDs. They arrive at the family center after school each Thursday, either pregnant or toting their babies, diaper bags and strollers.

They drink soda and munch on cookies and potato chips. Ms. Quattrone often cooked hamburgers or reheated a homemade dish of lasagna or chicken parmesan.

The girlish giggling around the main table during the meetings often is eclipsed by baby screeches, sucking noises or squeals of delight as toddlers romp and run on the carpet.

During school or study hours, many of the young mothers get child care help from their families or those of the fathers; some place their babies in day care. Most other times, these mothers face alone the need to bathe and dress their children, to feed them when they scream, to hold them when they're cranky and to change dirty diapers in the middle of the night or just when they've sat down for a meal.

They might have entered motherhood with illusions of constant gladness with their little bundles of joy, but they've come to understand a baby's birthright to take more than he or she gives.

Jo-An Corbett, 20, of Duquesne, who became pregnant at 14 by a 22-year-old man, told the group she was weary from baby-sitting for a friend.

"I'm watching her two kids right now," Ms. Corbett said. "She can't even deal with them, so I know I'm not having another one. See, I can handle other kids, but I can't handle my own, so I know I'm not having more. [My daughter] controls me."

About half of the young mothers attend an alternative high school program in West Mifflin called Communities in Schools. The other half attend high school in Duquesne City School District. Many live in public housing at Duquesne Place Apartments on Commonwealth Avenue. They help each other move into their apartments or with baby-sitting.

"So the biggest benefit I can see is they form a social network with themselves. They have a kinship with each other," Ms. Quattrone said.

Most of the counselors assigned to this support group work for the AIU's Project Elect, which stands for Education Leading to Employment and Career Training.

The support group is one way Project Elect helps young mothers finish high school and earn diplomas or GEDs. Project Elect runs similar programs in the Wilkinsburg and Penn Hills school districts.

"The objective of our program is to keep them in school," said Lynn Tatala, the program coordinator.

Other programs available to teen mothers include day care centers at Pittsburgh public high schools, such as Oliver, Schenley and Brashear. The centers were caring for 32 babies at the beginning of this school year.

Teen mothers can bring their babies to those schools on school or city buses. Some walk or get rides from friends and family. If it's not too disruptive, they can visit their children in the day care centers at lunchtime, but there's not enough time to drop in between classes.

"We provide Pampers and food," said Sally Mole, who oversees the city school day care centers. "Moms are only responsible for formula and bottles, and the babies must be at least 6 weeks old to come to the centers."

According to a 2004 study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the pregnancy rate for U.S. girls between 15 and 19 fell 28 percent between 1990 and 2000, to 84 pregnancies per 1,000 women from 117.

Most of the girls in the Duquesne support group were impregnated by an older man who is no longer in school or in their lives. Some fell in love and wanted to get pregnant. Others didn't want a baby but didn't take precautions or were careless.

Tequlia Sowell, 17, a senior in Duquesne City School District, said she used a contraceptive incorrectly. She remembers the gut-wrenching panic she felt the moment she knew she was pregnant.

"I was super scared," said Ms. Sowell, who was 14 at the time.

She went to a doctor for her ninth-grade checkup and discovered she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted an abortion, but didn't have the money to pay for it.

"I was angry at myself," she said. "I didn't want a baby. It just happened." Ms. Sowell, who lives in Duquesne, is no longer dating her daughter's father, but the toddler lives with the father's mother. Ms. Sowell frequently visits and plans to graduate from high school this year.

Ms. Pitts, 19, took a home pregnancy test at age 15 and found out she was pregnant. She was not practicing birth control at the time.

Many boys don't take precautions, either, she said.

"They just do it to do it," Ms. Pitts said. "They don't think."

Most of the teen moms in the support group do not work, but all say they are looking for jobs at places such as Giant Eagle or Foot Locker. Nursing appears to be the most popular long-term career choice.

Ms. Wilson moved into her own apartment on her 18th birthday.

"I just wanted to have a place of my own instead of depending on somebody," she said. "My baby's dad's grandmother is helping me. But I'm not used to letting anyone help me. I'm used to getting out there on my own and trying my best to find a job."

Babies of teenage mothers often carry their father's last names, even when the fathers have little involvement in their young lives. The women in the Duquesne group said none of their children's fathers were providing regular child support.

Many of the teen mothers wear their babies' first names tattooed on their arms, shoulders, legs or chests. They often dress their infants and toddlers in designer clothing and outfit them with 14-karat gold earrings, necklaces, bracelets and finger rings.

Ms. Pitts was in love when she found out she was pregnant. She had her boyfriend's name tattooed on the back of her right hand.

Now, heartbroken over their crumbling relationship, Ms. Pitts recently bared her soul to the other girls in the support group through a poem:

I thought he would change because of our child
But he's still out there acting wild ...
I take care of my child all alone
Cause most of the time he's not at home
If he don't change, I'm moving on
That's just that he'll just be gone
I love him with all my heart
I don't want to break apart.

DVD Polizei
01-28-06, 07:50 PM
Abortion should be mandatory for pregnant women under 21.

JasonF
01-28-06, 07:56 PM
Nowhere in the article does it say anything that can be fairly characterized as girls "deliberately getting pregnant so they can collect welfare and food stamps, and have their own apartment at age 18."

grundle
01-28-06, 08:01 PM
Nowhere in the article does it say anything that can be fairly characterized as girls "deliberately getting pregnant so they can collect welfare and food stamps, and have their own apartment at age 18."
I put those parts in bold.

wendersfan
01-28-06, 08:10 PM
I put those parts in bold.I read those parts. I don't see it either. I have no doubt it happens, but there's a lot of inference necessary to say the article says that directly.

Red Dog
01-28-06, 08:14 PM
As Molly Ringwald says while -ohbfrank- in Not Another Teen Movie: "Fucking Teenagers!"

MartinBlank
01-28-06, 08:41 PM
"I already knew I was going to have one eventually, so it wasn't a surprise," said Ashley Pitts, 19, of Duquesne, who became pregnant at 15. "There's no shame in getting pregnant. There's a lot of people who have kids. There are 17-year-olds with two kids."[/b]

:wtf:

Children having children. -ohbfrank-


And of course there's no shame in being pregnant, and yes, there are a lot of "people" (I hope she's smart enough to know that only women can carry babies) pregnant....but um....um......but they're call adults, or individuals with their heads on pretty straight.


I was going to have one eventually....

Wow....just wow....


And, unfortunately, it kind of has become the "norm" in today's society... which, unfortunately, can lead to the all mighty abortion debate.

grundle
01-28-06, 08:52 PM
How else could someone without a job get a new apartment exactly on her 18th birthday?

NORML54601
01-29-06, 02:47 AM
The best part of this is: more babies growing up to be idiots.

Tommy Ceez
01-29-06, 05:38 AM
Am I missing something? Were people waiting till they were 25 to have children until just recently? If Im not mistaken, 100 years ago, if you didnt have 5 kids by the time you were 30, you were a lazy fuck.

grundle
01-29-06, 07:34 AM
Am I missing something? Were people waiting till they were 25 to have children until just recently? If Im not mistaken, 100 years ago, if you didnt have 5 kids by the time you were 30, you were a lazy fuck.
True. But back then, the parents were married, and the father supported his children.

NCMojo
01-29-06, 07:35 AM
Wow, that is the most intentionally misleading and factually incorrect post title I have ever seen. Nowhere in the article does it say that any of these teens were deliberately getting pregnant to collect welfare -- in fact, it states just about every other reason under the sun but the one that promotes your agenda.

Here's a thought -- how about we teach sex education in schools that does more than just promote abstinence? How about if we have some honest discussion about how to acquire and use birth control effectively? Heck, go further -- what if we made birth control pills and condoms free and easy to acquire??? You'd see fewer teenage pregnancies, and thus fewer teens moving onto the welfare rolls.

But that's not what the right wing is promoting. Instead, they're insisting on feeding kids a pack of lies about the effectiveness of birth control as part of their Christian-based, "abstinence-only" sex education plan. And since we're never going to stop teenagers from having sex... that means what we're essentially doing is encouraging them not to use birth control. Which means more teen pregnancies.

Which means either more abortions, or more welfare moms. Take your pick.

The Bus
01-29-06, 08:08 AM
Just because some people drink and drive doesn't mean alcohol and cars should be outlawed, does it?

classicman2
01-29-06, 08:29 AM
Nowhere in the article does it say anything that can be fairly characterized as girls "deliberately getting pregnant so they can collect welfare and food stamps, and have their own apartment at age 18."

:up:


It's amazing how warped some of our members views are on social issues; and, economic issues, btw.

CRM114
01-29-06, 08:34 AM
What's the opposite of "rose-colored glasses?"

Jason
01-29-06, 09:14 AM
Most of the teen moms in the support group do not work, but all say they are looking for jobs at places such as Giant Eagle or Foot Locker. Nursing appears to be the most popular long-term career choice.

Nice unbiased bolding.

wendersfan
01-29-06, 09:38 AM
Nice unbiased bolding.
Is this better?:Most of <b>the teen moms in the support group</b> do not work, but <b>all say they are looking for jobs</b>;)

grundle
01-29-06, 10:57 AM
Wow, that is the most intentionally misleading and factually incorrect post title I have ever seen. Nowhere in the article does it say that any of these teens were deliberately getting pregnant to collect welfare -- in fact, it states just about every other reason under the sun but the one that promotes your agenda.

Here's a thought -- how about we teach sex education in schools that does more than just promote abstinence? How about if we have some honest discussion about how to acquire and use birth control effectively? Heck, go further -- what if we made birth control pills and condoms free and easy to acquire??? You'd see fewer teenage pregnancies, and thus fewer teens moving onto the welfare rolls.

But that's not what the right wing is promoting. Instead, they're insisting on feeding kids a pack of lies about the effectiveness of birth control as part of their Christian-based, "abstinence-only" sex education plan. And since we're never going to stop teenagers from having sex... that means what we're essentially doing is encouraging them not to use birth control. Which means more teen pregnancies.

Which means either more abortions, or more welfare moms. Take your pick.
Everyone knows about birth control. It's in the media all the time. I see commcerials for it on TV all the time. Everyone knows about it.

There are many ways to get birth control. Birth control is everywhere.

I bolded the parts of the article where they said they got pregnant on purpose.

How else could someone with no job get their own apartment exactly on their 18th birthday?

grundle
01-29-06, 10:59 AM
Just because some people drink and drive doesn't mean alcohol and cars should be outlawed, does it?
No.

I think sex, birth control, and abortion should be legal. I never said we should outlaw those things.

wendersfan
01-29-06, 11:06 AM
Everyone knows about birth control. It's in the media all the time. I see commcerials for it on TV all the time. Everyone knows about it.Bullshit.

http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=155

Teens Need Practical Information

The survey also found that teens are inconsistent in their use of birth control. Despite the fact that more than half (55%) of sexually experienced teens (n=497) say they worry about becoming pregnant or getting a girl pregnant, less than half (48%) of the surveyed sexually experienced teens say they "always" use contraception when they have sex. <b>Further evidence that a lack of practical information may contribute to teens' inconsistent use of contraception comes from teens' responses to questions about whether they thought most teenagers had enough accurate information regarding how to use and obtain contraception</b> and how to prevent AIDS and other STDs. <b>Most teens (58%), say they do not have enough information about how to use birth control; 45% believe teens need more information about where to get birth control</b>; and 30% think teens need more information about how to prevent AIDS and STDs. Overall, <b>these findings are consistent among all teen respondents compared with only those who have had sex</b>. The finding that teens receive only limited information is supported by a comprehensive report published by The Alan Guttmacher Institute, which found that, "although sex education is widespread, it often includes minimal instruction about pregnancy and STD prevention."2

Furthermore, teens believe that this lack of knowledge leads to unintended pregnancies. Teens were asked whether they thought that various factors were often a reason, sometimes a reason, or hardly a reason girls have unplanned pregnancies. About two thirds of teens report that the biggest reason teens have unplanned pregnancies is that they don't think it will happen to them. This suggests that teens need more specific information regarding the risks of pregnancy. Some teens also feel that the risk of unplanned pregnancy is greater for teens who lack adequate information about how to use birth control correctly. About a quarter (26%) of teenagers say that unplanned pregnancies result because teens "don't know the right way to use birth control."

classicman2
01-29-06, 11:15 AM
But knowing about and practicing it are two different things.

I think most teens are well aware of the consequences (wanted or unwanted) of sexual intercourse.

NCMojo
01-29-06, 11:34 AM
Everyone knows about birth control. It's in the media all the time. I see commcerials for it on TV all the time. Everyone knows about it.

There are many ways to get birth control. Birth control is everywhere.
Actually, birth control for women is only available by prescription, typically from places like Planned Parenthood that fringe right-wingers want to blow up. Pharmacists are encouraged to "use their conscience" and refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. One of the key GOP tenets is to require parental consent for all birth control prescriptions.

And many of the new "abstinence-only" textbooks contain glaring factual errors that would dissuade the use of condoms -- such as the false statistic that condoms fail to prevent HIV transmission 31% of the time. Programs that tried to distribute free condoms, and promote their proper and responsible use, have been shut down.

I bolded the parts of the article where they said they got pregnant on purpose.
Yes, but you failed to bold the part where they became pregnant on purpose in order to go on welfare. You bolded the parts where some of them became pregnant on purpose. You bolded the parts where some of them were on welfare. But you did not bold the all-important part that links the two together... and that's because, well... it's not there, isn't it? Which makes your point... what... disingenous? At best?

NCMojo
01-29-06, 11:35 AM
But knowing about and practicing it are two different things.

I think most teens are well aware of the consequences (wanted or unwanted) of sexual intercourse.
Quick question for all of you -- how old were you when you had sex for the first time? And did you use a condom?

(My own answer would be 18 and no.)

classicman2
01-29-06, 11:40 AM
Actually, birth control for women is only available by prescription,

That's obviously untrue.

DVD Polizei
01-29-06, 01:12 PM
Bullshit.

http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=155

No, I call BULLSHIT on those teens playing stupid. They just don't want to take the time and use the contraception. It's inconvenient. They would rather blame society on not informing them, than closing their legs and being responsible.

Just look at how many babies are thrown in dumpsters these days. Is this survey also saying society didn't inform them that tossing their baby into a dumpster was illegal and might actually kill their child?

NCMojo
01-29-06, 01:21 PM
That's obviously untrue.
Uh... well, I'm not a woman, so I guess there is a certain degree of supposition there... but as far as I know, whenever any woman I ever know wanted to get on the Pill, they'd have to go to a doctor and get an examination and a prescription. It's not available OTC anywhere.

Are you saying that The Pill is not the only method of birth control for women? That is true, and I may have misspoken if that's what I implied. Spermicidal foam, IUDs... heck, even condoms could be considered "birth control for women"... I was mainly referring to the Pill.

Still, I was not knowingly trying to be misleading... so if you could explain this comment a bit more, I would appreciate it.

grundle
01-29-06, 01:24 PM
Bullshit.

http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=155
Who doesn't know that having sex causes pregnancy?

Who can't read the instructions on a package of condoms?

Who can't use google?

grundle
01-29-06, 01:25 PM
But knowing about and practicing it are two different things.

I think most teens are well aware of the consequences (wanted or unwanted) of sexual intercourse.
I agree with you.

Just like with wearing seatbelts. Everyone knows it. But not everyone does it.

grundle
01-29-06, 01:29 PM
Actually, birth control for women is only available by prescription, typically from places like Planned Parenthood that fringe right-wingers want to blow up. Pharmacists are encouraged to "use their conscience" and refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. One of the key GOP tenets is to require parental consent for all birth control prescriptions.

And many of the new "abstinence-only" textbooks contain glaring factual errors that would dissuade the use of condoms -- such as the false statistic that condoms fail to prevent HIV transmission 31% of the time. Programs that tried to distribute free condoms, and promote their proper and responsible use, have been shut down.
Every drugstore and supermarket sells condoms.

I think all forms birth control should be sold over the counter. That way medicade and insurance won't have to pay for it.

Yes, but you failed to bold the part where they became pregnant on purpose in order to go on welfare. You bolded the parts where some of them became pregnant on purpose. You bolded the parts where some of them were on welfare. But you did not bold the all-important part that links the two together... and that's because, well... it's not there, isn't it? Which makes your point... what... disingenous? At best?
Before welfare was creatred, teenage illegitimacy was very rare. Whatever you subsidize, you get more of. They're all excited to get their own taxpayer funded apartment on their 18th birthday.

NCMojo
01-29-06, 01:31 PM
Before welfare was creatred, teenage illegitimacy was very rare. Whatever you subsidize, you get more of. They're all excited to get their own taxpayer funded apartment on their 18th birthday.
Do you have a link for any part of this?

grundle
01-29-06, 01:31 PM
No, I call BULLSHIT on those teens playing stupid. They just don't want to take the time and use the contraception. It's inconvenient. They would rather blame society on not informing them, than closing their legs and being responsible.
You are correct.

grundle
01-29-06, 01:37 PM
Do you have a link for any part of this?
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams051999.asp

Walter Williams

The illegitimacy rate among blacks stands close to 70 percent.

Even during slavery, most black children lived in biological two-parent families. One study of 19th-century slave families (Herbert Gutman, "The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom: 1750-1925") found that in up to three-fourths of the families, all the children had the same mother and father. In New York City in 1925, 85 percent of kin-related black households were double-headed. In fact, "Five in six children under the age of six lived with both parents."

Both during slavery and as late as 1920, a black teen-age girl raising a child without a man was rare among blacks. Gutman, also found in analyzing data on black families in Harlem between 1905 and 1925 that only 3 percent of all families "were headed by a woman under 30."

Scholar and columnist Thomas Sowell found: "Going back a hundred years, when blacks were just one generation out of slavery, we find that census data of that era showed that a slightly higher percentage of black adults had married than white adults. This fact remained true in every census from 1890 to 1940."

NCMojo
01-29-06, 01:38 PM
Every drugstore and supermarket sells condoms.

I think all forms birth control should be sold over the counter. That way medicade and insurance won't have to pay for it.
Birth control costs next to nothing. I'm sure insurance companies are only too glad to pay for the pill as opposed to paying for maternity. And I'm sure the state would only be too happy to pick up the tab as well, considering (again) how many teenage mothers end up on welfare.

Again, the reality is that welfare does not make up a significant portion of the federal budget, and is invariably a short-term and not a long term solution. There just aren't that many people trying to cheat the welfare system -- for the vast majority, it is a hand-up, not a hand-out. The major problem with teen pregnancy is not that they end up on welfare -- it's that they are bringing children into this world before they are really prepared to deal with them.

Your only "solution" is to cut off welfare to these young mothers, and... what? Starve them out? You evidently are in favor of birth control... are you also in favor of encouraging its use by truthful sex education?

classicman2
01-29-06, 03:42 PM
Let's see:

There's female condoms

Contraceptive foam

Contraceptive gel.

Contraceptive film

Oh, yes, and there is cycle beads.

I'm sure there others that don't require a prescription.

Goldblum
01-29-06, 04:02 PM
As Molly Ringwald says while -ohbfrank- in Not Another Teen Movie: "Fucking Teenagers!"
But...as a teenaged Molly Ringwald says in "For Keeps"..."I wanna keep the baby!"

grundle
01-29-06, 06:21 PM
Your only "solution" is to cut off welfare to these young mothers, and... what? Starve them out?
There are lots of solutions. Marriage. Adoption. Abortion. They can do whatever they want. But the government should not be involved.

You evidently are in favor of birth control... are you also in favor of encouraging its use by truthful sex education?
I am in favor of education about sex and birth control.

I would not "encourage" or "discourage" anyone to use birth control, because that is a personal decision.

DVD Polizei
01-29-06, 06:50 PM
NCMojo,

One family constantly gives their son and daughter money whenever they need it.

The other family says to their son and daughter if they want something, they will have to pay for it themselves.

Which siblings do you think will not need welfare? Which siblings will plan their pregnancies and marriage?

When it's YOUR MONEY you have to fork out, you tend to use contraception, and you tend to get off your ass a little quicker than someone who is used to the federal government giving you a check every month.

kvrdave
01-29-06, 10:32 PM
Sex ed currently teaches all about birth control in my local schools. It has at least for the past 20 years, and probably before that. I wouldn't mind if it taught it more aggressively (or, better put, I wouldn't be against it), but it is lunacy to believe that teens are getting pregnant because they don't know how to keep from getting pregnant. :lol:

Most of this is due to a culture of welfare (at least where I live). Kids in the schools talk about how their mom is getting a "raise" because she is going to have another baby, kids talk about how they can't wait to get pregnant and get their own place, etc.

I don't know that I would qualify it as the "norm" but certainly it is a lifestyle choice that we should accept because of how freaking touchy feely we are. -wink-

kvrdave
01-29-06, 10:41 PM
Here's a thought -- how about we teach sex education in schools that does more than just promote abstinence? How about if we have some honest discussion about how to acquire and use birth control effectively? Heck, go further -- what if we made birth control pills and condoms free and easy to acquire??? You'd see fewer teenage pregnancies, and thus fewer teens moving onto the welfare rolls.

But that's not what the right wing is promoting. Instead, they're insisting on feeding kids a pack of lies about the effectiveness of birth control as part of their Christian-based, "abstinence-only" sex education plan. And since we're never going to stop teenagers from having sex... that means what we're essentially doing is encouraging them not to use birth control. Which means more teen pregnancies.

:lol: Here's a thought -- how about we look at the teen pregnancy rates in areas that teach abstinence, abstinence only, "regular" sex ed, and the "give condoms and cots" version of your choice, and see which is actually working. Personally, I have no idea, but that seems like a decent course of action. Also, are there prublic schools that teach "abstinence only" for sex ed? I hear about it on the news, but I don't know of any schools that use it. I wouldn't doubt if there are, but if there are, why not get some facts from that district and look at teen pregnancy rates before and after the program. If there aren't any that actually use it, what is the point of talking about the "vast right wing...and CHRISTIAN" BOOGA BOOGA agenda if it isn't in place? How can you decide that it would make things worse? Or is it really more about being against the "morality police?"

JasonF
01-29-06, 11:14 PM
For kvrdave:
Programs that typically emphasize abstinence, but also cover condoms and other methods of contraception, have a larger body of evaluation evidence that indicates either no effect on initiation of sexual activity or, in some cases, a delay in the initiation of sexual activity (Kirby, 1999; Kirby, 2001). This evidence gives strong support to the conclusion that providing information about contraception does not increase adolescent sexual activity, either by hastening the onset of sexual intercourse, increasing the frequency of sexual intercourse, or increasing the number of sexual partners. In addition, some of these evaluated programs increased condom use or contraceptive use more generally for adolescents who were sexually active (Kirby et al, 1991; Rotheram-Borus et al, 1991; Jemmott et al, 1992; Walter and Vaughn, 1993; Magura et al, 1994; Main et al, 1994; St Lawrence et al, 1995; Hubbard et al, 1998; Jemmott et al, 1998; Coyle et al, 1999).
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/sexualhealth/call.htm


Very little rigorous evaluation of abstinence-only programs has been completed; in fact, only three studies met the criteria for this review. The primary conclusion that can be drawn from these three studies is that the evidence is not conclusive about abstinence-only programs. None of the three evaluated programs showed an overall positive effect on sexual behavior, nor did they affect contraceptive use among sexually active participants. However, given the paucity of the research and the great diversity of abstinence-only programs that is not reflected in these three studies, one should be very careful about drawing conclusions about abstinence-only programs in general. Fortunately, results from a well-designed, federally-sponsored evaluation of Title V funded abstinence programs should be available within the next two years.
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/pdf/emeranswsum.pdf

Dr. Kirby was apparently overly optimistic on when we'd have more detailed evaluation of abstinence-only programs. In this (http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2005/shelbyknox/special_interviews_2.html) June, 2005 interview, he says there's still not a good study of the effacacy of abstinence-only programs.

kvrdave
01-29-06, 11:21 PM
So we should be very careful about drawing conlcusions about abstinence-only programs in general. Someone tell mojo. -wink-

Like I said, I don't care too much how sex ed is taught. I still tend to think that most of what you pass on to kids comes from parents. But I also don't think that handing out condoms in schools will decrease the pregnancy rate either. Just seems silly to believe that kids don't know how not to get pregnant. And I still believe most of this topic just irritates some people because of the perception that morality is being imposed or (gasp) judged.

JasonF
01-30-06, 07:36 AM
Just seems silly to believe that kids don't know how not to get pregnant.

There are some awfully stupid people out there, and a lot of urban myths about sex. I would guess that there are plenty of kids who could benefit from being told that you can get pregnant the first time you have sex, and that douching with Coca Cola is not an effective method of birth control, and that you can get pregnant even if the guy pulls out before he finishes.

classicman2
01-30-06, 07:39 AM
I hate to sound super conservative about this, but when/if do we expect people to show a little self-discipline & keep their peckers in their pants? Or girls to keep their legs together? I guess that's too much to hope for. After all, Clinton was how old, and he couldn't keep....... :D:

CRM114
01-30-06, 07:58 AM
I hate to sound super conservative about this, but when/if do we expect people to show a little self-discipline & keep their peckers in their pants? Or girls to keep their legs together? I guess that's too much to hope for. After all, Clinton was how old, and he couldn't keep....... :D:

Because there was no banging going on in the 50s and 60s right classicman? :lol:

Back in the 50's (and I'm sure many of our parents fell into this category), you either knocked up a girl and got married at 18 or you got married at 18 so you could have guiltless sex. In those days, an 18 year old could get a good job without problem and start raising a family. Sex did not just suddenly happen in the late 20th century.

classicman2
01-30-06, 08:04 AM
Again, not to sound super conservative, but, during the 50's girls (women) didn't have the options they've got to today - including welfare programs (which I support, btw). Back then there wasn't the divorce rate there is now.

BTW: A couple of good things from the 50's: 1. Better government regulation; 2. The middle class, unlike the past couple of decades, was growing leaps & bounds.

I must defend the '50s. ;)

Oh, I forgot - great automobiles during the 50's also.

NCMojo
01-30-06, 08:26 AM
So we should be very careful about drawing conlcusions about abstinence-only programs in general. Someone tell mojo. -wink-

Like I said, I don't care too much how sex ed is taught. I still tend to think that most of what you pass on to kids comes from parents. But I also don't think that handing out condoms in schools will decrease the pregnancy rate either. Just seems silly to believe that kids don't know how not to get pregnant. And I still believe most of this topic just irritates some people because of the perception that morality is being imposed or (gasp) judged.
No, I fully understand that the phrase "you can't legislate morality" is pretty much bogus -- all laws are an attempt to legislate some kind of morality, yadda yadda. My main objection to abstinence-only programs is that they present a particular right-wing, Christian-based viewpoint as "education", and deliberately mislead teenagers as to the effectiveness of condoms in preventing STDs, and all forms of birth control in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

"Just say no" didn't work in the drug wars, and it won't work in the war on sex; what we need is comprehensive education, and to move away from the myth that free and easy access to birth control leads to promiscuity.

(My other objection in that the OPs premise is faulty, and is utterly unsupported by the original article. But I think that has pretty well been addressed in this thread.)

Numanoid
01-30-06, 08:42 AM
Who doesn't know that having sex causes pregnancy?

Who can't read the instructions on a package of condoms?

Who can't use google?I suggest you take a poll on the mean streets of one of our inner cities. I think you might be surprised by the results. "Google what?"

Numanoid
01-30-06, 08:45 AM
They can do whatever they want. But the government should not be involved.That's a very short-sighted strategy. In your plan, the super-poor become increasingly populous. Take a look through a history book and read about nations that have allowed this to happen and how they fared in the end.

Numanoid
01-30-06, 08:57 AM
There are some awfully stupid people out there, and a lot of urban myths about sex. I would guess that there are plenty of kids who could benefit from being told that you can get pregnant the first time you have sex, and that douching with Coca Cola is not an effective method of birth control, and that you can get pregnant even if the guy pulls out before he finishes.I had a girlfriend in high school. She got a 33 on her ACT test (a very, very high score) and is easily one of the three smartest people I've ever known (she is now a successful coporate lawyer). Due to a late menstrual cycle, she was convinced that she was pregnant and had informed her mother of her condition despite the fact that she was a virgin! She thought that you could get pregnant from deep kissing. How such an intelligent person could believe such a blatantly silly idea still mystifies me. I can only imagine what a "stupid" person might believe.

classicman2
01-30-06, 09:07 AM
Nothing like a little anecdotal evidence for a Monday morning :)

grundle
01-30-06, 08:33 PM
That's a very short-sighted strategy. In your plan, the super-poor become increasingly populous. Take a look through a history book and read about nations that have allowed this to happen and how they fared in the end.
You mean like the United States, England, France, Germany, South Korea, and Hong Kong? All those countries became very wealthy while their populations were exploding.

grundle
01-30-06, 08:37 PM
I had a girlfriend in high school. She got a 33 on her ACT test (a very, very high score) and is easily one of the three smartest people I've ever known (she is now a successful coporate lawyer). Due to a late menstrual cycle, she was convinced that she was pregnant and had informed her mother of her condition despite the fact that she was a virgin! She thought that you could get pregnant from deep kissing. How such an intelligent person could believe such a blatantly silly idea still mystifies me. I can only imagine what a "stupid" person might believe.
Was this like in 1953 in rural North Carolina?

bwvanh114
01-30-06, 08:42 PM
No, she didn't want to admit to her mother that she was having sex.

naughty jonny
01-30-06, 09:05 PM
Personally, I don't think there are too many people that get pregnant just to collect welfare. Sure, they might collect welfare as a result of getting pregnant, but that's not the root cause. Look at those first two. They each got pregnant because they thought that "dad" would love them more (dumb).

As for whether they should get welfare, I think they should. It's not ideal, and it shouldn't be seen as a reward, but not doing it is socially irresponsible of society.

Firstly, it's not the kids fault their mother is an idiot.

Secondly, most of that money will find its way back into the economy (and back to the government anyway) - whether they buy baby food, rent assistance or just waste it on cigarettes and alcohol. You buy something, you pay sales tax; the retailer pays income tax and the manufactor pays tax too. While it might not all go back to the government, some will and the rest will just circulate around a bit helping the whole economy.

And the government will eventually collect the money back from the kids by way of tax (when they grow up), so it's not like it's money that's flowing out of the economy into a black hole.

Rather than cuit welfare payments, shouldn't it be better to spend MORE money and direct that towards education? Kids like this who get pregnant early should be taught how to prevent it or at the very least, be better parents to the kids that they will invariably have.

Cutting off welfare will just starve them and their kids and those kids will be a further drain on society later on in life.

Gallant Pig
01-31-06, 12:08 AM
Again, not to sound super conservative, but, during the 50's girls (women) didn't have the options they've got to today - including welfare programs (which I support, btw). Back then there wasn't the divorce rate there is now.

BTW: A couple of good things from the 50's: 1. Better government regulation; 2. The middle class, unlike the past couple of decades, was growing leaps & bounds.

Back in the 50's, the men all had 8 inch penises and the women were all 36Ds.

I must defend the '50s. ;)

Oh, I forgot - great automobiles during the 50's also.

Oh what magical times...

grundle
01-31-06, 06:52 AM
shouldn't it be better to spend MORE money and direct that towards education?

We've had about a zillion threads here debunking the myth that public schools need more money. Since the 1960s, adjusted for inflation, per student spending on public schools has more than doubled. Various experiments such as in Kansas City, Missouri, show that giving more money to bad public schools makes them worse, not better.

Where in the world did you get the idea that we need to spend more money on education?


Cutting off welfare will just starve them and their kids
When welfare reform was proposed a decade ago, opponents claimed that it would cause large numbers of women and children to be starving in the streets. They were wrong. What did happen was that when people's welfare benefits were cut off after 5 years, they got jobs and started using birth control.

Where in the world do you get the idea that cutting off welfare would cause women and children to starve?

You claim that public schools need more money. And you claim that cutting off welfare would cause women and children to starve. Both of these claims have already been proven wrong based on real world experience. So why do you say these things? I'm really curious to know.

Numanoid
01-31-06, 07:37 AM
No, she didn't want to admit to her mother that she was having sex.I was the alleged father, and we hadn't had sex. And it was the mid '80s. Of course, she went to Catholic school her whole life, so maybe they don't teach them those dirty things. I still tease her about it.

uberjoe
01-31-06, 07:54 AM
Numanoid's seed is strong.

Numanoid
01-31-06, 09:16 AM
Numanoid's seed is strong.
:D&nbsp;

fujishig
01-31-06, 12:18 PM
Wait, she knew about her menstrual cycle and the signs of pregnancy but not the means of getting pregnant? Are you sure she wasn't just cheating on you, Numanoid? :)

Numanoid
01-31-06, 12:36 PM
Heh, I wish, that would mean that she was at least putting out. This poor girl waited until her third year of college or so to lose her virginity, then got herpes on her first time! There's a lesson there for all of us.

grundle
01-31-06, 02:17 PM
Heh, I wish, that would mean that she was at least putting out. This poor girl waited until her third year of college or so to lose her virginity, then got herpes on her first time! There's a lesson there for all of us.
Herpes lesions appear on parts of the skin that condoms don't cover. (So do genital warts, which are caused by the HPV virus, which causes cervical cancer.) So much for "safe sex."

Did the guy know he had herpes, and give it to her on purpose? Was it a one night stand? How many people has she given it to?