Rodgers and Hammerstein remasters from fox 11.07.06

[Cameron]

dvd times is reporting a 03.20.06 release date for three new rogers and hammerstein titles.

The King and I - 2 disc set

Carousel - 2 Disc set with bonus Liliom

South Pacific - 2 Disc setwith extended Roadshow version

[Giles]

The King and I - anamorphic! woohoo

[marknyc]

Are there links for details on these? Will The King and I include the songs that have been missing from release prints for years? I'm dying for a a list of features, but Amazon still lists only the current versions.

[g]

I wonder when we'll get the boxset as its cheaper to buy them all that way

[marty888]

Looking forward to <i>Carousel</i> and <i>The King and I</i>!

[John Hodson]

Are there links for details on these? Will The King and I include the songs that have been missing from release prints for years? I'm dying for a a list of features, but Amazon still lists only the current versions.

Only an R2 announcement AFAIK - here (http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=59916)

[Ambassador]

Carousel - 2 Disc set with bonus Liliom

Whoa! The inclusion of Fritz Lang's Liliom may actually be the most important part of this announcement. Kino botched their release of this fascinating movie. (It's virtually unwatchable.) So this may be another instance where I pick up a multi-discer simply because of an extra -- much like the original silents on Ben-Hur and Ten Commandments.

[GOS]

-confused- The soon to be released Region 2 "Special Edition DVD" of The King and I is listed as containing three extra songs, but theres no word if these are extras or have been edited into the film. Can anyone confirm what the status of the forthcoming disc is?

[marknyc]

We're now 17 days away from the announced release date and still no details on these DVDs? Isn't that strange?

[Cameron]

i think its safe to say that they have been delayed

[marknyc]

Oh - does that happen often? Is there any way to find out if that's true?

[marknyc]

Called up Fox, and they have no record of any upcoming release of these titles in their database. I notice that the DVD Times announcement:

"Fox Home Entertainment have announced the UK Region 2 DVD release of several Rodgers & Hammerstein timeless musicals for 20th March 2006."

...only mentions a UK release. Perhaps there is not a planned U.S. release?

They're all available for pre-order at Amazon UK:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CRSFH6

[Giles]

given these are Region 2 only releases - with no offical word from Fox (US) for future Region 1 editions - I am surprised this has remained in the DVDTalk section this long and NOT been moved over to the International DVD Forum section.

[Giles]

Only an R2 announcement AFAIK - here (http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=59916)


crap! of all my boneheaded luck I inadvertantly ordered the sing along versions, merde

[marknyc]

Has anyone seen the 2-disc release yet? Are the deleted songs included in the film itself or added seperately, as extras?

[marknyc]

Well, just had the double disc edition of "The King and I" shipped to me from the UK and I am furious! It does NOT contain the promised deleted numbers! It has the audio of one only. What a ripoff.

[Giles]

Well, just had this shipped to me from the UK and I am furious! It does NOT contain the promised deleted numbers! It has the audio of one only. What a ripoff.

really, and this is from the double disc edition - I was angry (at myself) for inadvertantly purchasing the single disc edition, when they arrived at my doorstep as such. (I returned them back to amazon.co.uk)

[marty888]

.... and nothing about R1, huh? Strange, since the first round of R&H reissues <i>(Oklahoma, State Fair, Sound of Music)</i> appeared as scheduled.

[marknyc]

I ordered this because I called Fox last week and was told it was not on their new releases list, which runs through October.

So now I have an R2 copy but still no deleted scenes...argggh!

[Cameron]

credit to CharlesH at HTF

DVD Empire posted this morning under the "Recent Additions" the following TCF releases on 11/7: CAROUSEL: SE, THE KING AND I: SE, SOUTH PACIFIC: SE, THE RODGERS AND HAMMERSTEIN COLLECTION; THE QUILLER MEMORANDUM; THE ULTIMATE FLINT COLLECTION. No specific details except on Flint, which contains perks and commentaries.
I have good reason to believe (from another thread posted) that MIRACLE ON 34TH STREET: SE and O. HENRY'S FULL HOUSE will be released on 11/21. Hope they include "Meet Kris Kringle" from 20th Century Fox Hour on MIRACLE.

[marknyc]

I assume this will be the same edition released in the UK - only one deleted song (no video, only stills), not the 3 originally promised, and "6" featurettes which are really one featurette cut up into 6 sections.

[Cameron]

looks like they are also doing a new box set with these titles as well as the last wave

[Giles]

looks like they are also doing a new box set with these titles as well as the last wave

US or UK release? - I am surprised this topic has remained in the 'Region One' DVDTalk forum for this long and hasn't been ported over to the 'Internatinal DVD' forum

[Cameron]

Region 1 coming 11.07.06

Rodgers & Hammerstein Box Set Collection (12pc) (http://www.amazon.com/Rodgers-Hammerstein-Box-Collection-12pc/dp/B000HT3PGU/sr=1-1/qid=1158687931/ref=sr_1_1/103-5454619-8471829?ie=UTF8&s=dvd)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000HT3PGU.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V59750638_.jpg

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000HT3PGA.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V59750638_.jpg

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000HT3PFG.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V59750638_.jpg

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000HT3PGK.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V59750839_.jpg

[Giles]

Horray! :banana:

[bboisvert]

I just finally bought the R2 King and I set. So everyone can thank me for this R1 release. My karma strikes again!

[baracine]

Anybody buy the boxset yet? Or the individual titles?
Is the South Pacific picture improved, colour-wise?
Is Carousel anamorphic?
Is the Todd-AO version of Oklahoma watchable this time around?
Is this version of Liliom different from the one already available?
Any new earth-shattering improvements we should know about?

If you print it here, it will be a first. No reviews seem to be out so far for the set or the individual titles.

[bboisvert]

There's a review on this very site for Carousel:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=24907&___rd=1

Oddly, it doesn't seem to address either of your (pretty common) questions directly. However, given how the video was praised, I assume it was anamorphic. And I'd also assume that the Liliom print will be identical to what was presented earlier by Kino.

I look forward to someone else (DVDBeaver?) tackling this so we can get some of this cleared up.

[Bill Needle]

Anybody buy the boxset yet? Or the individual titles?
Is the South Pacific picture improved, colour-wise?
Is Carousel anamorphic?
Is the Todd-AO version of Oklahoma watchable this time around?
Is this version of Liliom different from the one already available?
Any new earth-shattering improvements we should know about?

If you print it here, it will be a first. No reviews seem to be out so far for the set or the individual titles.
My understanding is the Oklahoma release is identical to the earlier one (as is The Sound of Music), and all of the widescreen films in the set are anamorphic (the overseas ones were). I have not seen them yet, but will as soon as the DDD sale starts and they ship them to me. IMO this set is a no-brainer if you enjoy these films.

[baracine]

There's a review on this very site for Carousel:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=24907&___rd=1

Oddly, it doesn't seem to address either of your (pretty common) questions directly. However, given how the video was praised, I assume it was anamorphic. And I'd also assume that the Liliom print will be identical to what was presented earlier by Kino.

I look forward to someone else (DVDBeaver?) tackling this so we can get some of this cleared up.

Interesting review but as I own the Kino version of Liliom (as well as the non-anamorphic Carousel), I really want to know about this new version. The Kino version has frame jumps and abrupt lighting changes and it would be nice to know there is more than one print in existence.

I put my hope in DVDBeaver and DVDSavant (who has reviewed the Kino film before).

[Cameron]

all of these are in slim packs

[baracine]

I just rewatched the Kino version of Liliom. The picture is fuzzy as if transferred from a videotape and it's overcropped vertically. It could sure use a new transfer, which I hope is what's on the new Carousel DVD.

Somebody in this forum ( http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6379020&postcount=34 ) has posted screen caps of the Liliom included in the German Carousel and it looks very promising:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2hn-c.jpg

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2hn-d.jpg

In those first two shots, the bottom horizontal line almost doesn't appear on the TV screen in the Kino version. Furthermore, the picture here is clearly photographic and better than video quality.

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2hn-g.jpg

It seems our British cousins didn't get Liliom as an extra, though, so we should count our blessings.

Little-known fact: The screen rights to Liliom, which has been made into a film five times so far (not counting Carousel), belong to 20th Century Fox, just like those of Carousel.

[Jacqui]

I have the region 4 collection, and the artwork is superb. I am really disappointed they didn't give the same treatment to the region 1 art.

[bboisvert]

all of these are in slim packs

Really? Cool... I'll go for the box then.

[baracine]

I went back to dvdbeaver.com's original review of the Kino Liliom DVD (see: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews14/liliom.htm ), which states:

Frankly I am getting a little tired of other DVD reviewers sugar-coating their comments - this DVD is bordering on totally unwatchable and it cost me good money! As well as being hazy, blurry and teaming with 'combing' - the audio is broken with hiss' and fluctuating volume levels. It has contrast boosting. The subtitles have inappropriate translations at times, précised in others and to top it off - are nauseatingly bright yellow. There are no real extras and the price is far too expensive. I realize the poor and clandestine (never shown in the US) condition this film was in, but Kino have not done it any favors with their non-progressive transfer. It mentions quite prominently before the film starts how 'Film Preservation' is supported etc. but it seems like nothing was put into this analog transfer. Needless to say we do not recommend. (2 stars) out of (five stars)

Gary W. Tooze

Please compare this screen cap from the Kino version:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews14/a%20Liliom%20FRitz%20Lang%20DVD%20Review%20Charles%20Boyer%202/title%20fritz%20lang%20liliom%20dvd%20review.jpg

with this one from the German Carousel 2-disc package (the new transfer):
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/2hn-c.jpg

I think my Kino edition of Liliom - which cost me something like $ 32.95 CAN before tax) - will end up as a recycled Christmas present for some member of my family who is not too tech-savvy - along with the non-anamorphic Carousel!

As the new Carousel - which includes the new Liliom transfer - goes for around $ 20 US on amazon.com, this is a no-brainer.

[baracine]

My understanding is the Oklahoma release is identical to the earlier one (as is The Sound of Music), and all of the widescreen films in the set are anamorphic (the overseas ones were). I have not seen them yet, but will as soon as the DDD sale starts and they ship them to me. IMO this set is a no-brainer if you enjoy these films.

The State Fair 2-disc package is also identical to the previous edition so the boxset's value all rests on the new editions of South Pacific, Carousel (including the new, improved Liliom transfer) and The King and I. :editking:

[Bill Needle]

The State Fair 2-disc package is also identical to the previous edition so the boxset's value all rests on the new editions of South Pacific and Carousel (including the new, improved Liliom transfer).
I'm also a fan of the scaled down set packaging.

[baracine]

It didn't take me long and I finally gave in to buying the whole set. My existing double-dips will go in my Christmas presents' bin.

The first thing I did of course was to check the extras on Carousel, which are all great, and check out the Liliom transfer.

A foreword says that it's been restored from the best possible elements. The standard 20th Century Fox logo of the Kino version is replaced in this print by a hand-made Fox Europa card similar to the others in the opening titles.

The image and sound quality is simply amazing. It allows the viewer to appeciate in particular Liliom's ascension to heaven, which is an important scene for at least two reasons: (1) Franz Waxman's ethereal music is the reason he got the job to write James Whale's Bride of Frankenstein's score - thus changing the course of film music history - and (2) the general atmosphere of the piece and the presence of the two angels calling themselves «God's police» were a major influence on every one of Jean Cocteau's films from that date, including scenes in the netherworld between life and death, otherworldly judges and motocycle-riding «angels of death». Cocteau even borrows a line from Liliom («You're a funny little kid») and uses it in Beauty and the Beast's final scene («Vous êtes vraiment une drôle de petite fille»).

This transfer makes visible every elaborate miniature and all the details of the surreal (yet naive) matte paintings of Paris by night, the stars and angels in heaven and the futuristic decor of the heavenly police station while allowing to hear, for the first time, every nuance of Waxman's score. Also gone are the fuzziness and the mysterious changes in lighting intensity which marred the Kino version.

This transfer is clearly worth buying Carousel by itself. Its a true restoration that restores the magic, not only of Fritz Lang's film but also of Ferenc Molnar's original play. I can't wait to check out the other wonders of this set... :)

[bboisvert]

^

That's fantastic news. I nearly shed a tear when I saw what Kino had released -- that was a damn shame. Great to see that finally remedied.

I ordered the box via the DDD sale. Should have it in a week or so.

[baracine]

I nearly shed a tear when I saw what Kino had released -- that was a damn shame.

This version will have you shedding tears of joy!

[Bill Needle]

Glad I jumped on this yesterday!

[baracine]

I'm now watching Carousel...

1. It's anamorphic and the bitrate is maximal.
2. Billy Bigelow's pants don't shimmer anymore.
3. Shirley Jones' commentary is as inspired as it was on Oklahoma: she really brings out that every part in this play was a magnificent acting opportunity for the actors.

[baracine]

I watched the South Pacific road show version last night...

This is the first DVD edition since 1999 and it's also the first that is anamorphic. The Todd-AO picture comes across very well, with a high bitrate and the sound is powerful. I admit to never having seen this film in its entirety (even in its regular version, except on TV and bits on a laserdisc, although I know the soundtrack by heart). The director experimented with colour filters (overwhelming yellows, reds or blues) to suggest a dream state, anxiety or the feeling of being in love. (Like most R&H musicals, this play's primary subject is the ups and downs of sexual attraction.) These were very disturbing in every other format but are acceptable here as they are alternated with crystal-clear «normal» images that are as pellucid as the Ryan's Daughter transfer was (one of the best ever).

The overall impression is that the viewer alternately feels like he/she is on location in Hawai, inside the head of the actors, under the influence of a powerful hallucinatory drug or watching a particularly involving stage presentation where the lighting director has mixed his medication.

As R&H were in charge of every detail of the production, the music, singing and orchestrations - and casting - are the primordial factors, the pretty pictures being just icing on the cake.

I don't recommend the road show version as a first viewing experience because the film is already challenging to watch in its regular form. The 15 minutes of extra footage is of inferior quality and yellowed, flat and/or shaky and the viewer is not given much extra information for his effort except a bit of extra horseplay and off-colour jokes by the boys, most notably in the opening «Bloody Mary» and «There is Nothing Like A Dame» numbers. A must for completists and very nice to refer to, but the mix of all those colour schemes interspersed with this yellow-copperish footage can get to be just a little too much to take at times and this version runs almost three hours... so you'll need Visine. Still, the road show version is a major undertaking as it obviously necessitated a lot of sound as well as picture editing to make everything run relatively smoothly.

I only listened to the road show commentary off and on but the guy is a regular chatterbox and gives a ton of useful information.

The extras are numerous and interesting, including TV footage of Mary Martin and Enzio Pinza and a 15-minute vintage «Making Of» black and white featurette, a «60 Minutes» episode where Diane Sawyer escorts James Michener back to the island where he wrote «Tales of the South Pacific», the elborate Mitzi Gaynor screen test and a lot more. For more general background on the history of the play, its making into a film and R&H's relationship with the Hollywood establishment (besides what's in the commentaries), you can refer to the King and I extras, a lot of which are original and which are even more informative. In them, Rodgers and Hammerstein really come out as courageous independent producers out to buck the system every step of the way - and making a fortune and musical history in the process.

I couldn't even imagine a more complete package. ***** out ot *****

[Bill Needle]

Great info! Thanks!

[TexasDVDer]

I was interested in getting these also when I found out that they no longer had English subtitles. As I've gotten older my hearing has decreased and I can't understand all the dialog in some moves. Having English suntitles turned on adds to my enjoyment of the movies.

The previous editions had English subtitles. I wonder why they were left off these transfers.

[baracine]

I was interested in getting these also when I found out that they no longer had English subtitles. As I've gotten older my hearing has decreased and I can't understand all the dialog in some moves. Having English suntitles turned on adds to my enjoyment of the movies.

The previous editions had English subtitles. I wonder why they were left off these transfers.

All six films, including their variants, the two versions of Oklahoma, the two versions of South Pacific, the two versions of State Fair and Liliom, as well as most of the extras are subtitled in English. All six primary films even have special singalong karaoke subtitles that move along with the sung words during the musical numbers.

[Ambassador]

The first thing I did of course was to check the extras on Carousel, which are all great, and check out the Liliom transfer.

A foreword says that it's been restored from the best possible elements. The standard 20th Century Fox logo of the Kino version is replaced in this print by a hand-made Fox Europa card similar to the others in the opening titles.

The image and sound quality is simply amazing. It allows the viewer to appeciate in particular Liliom's ascension to heaven, which is an important scene for at least two reasons: (1) Franz Waxman's ethereal music is the reason he got the job to write James Whale's Bride of Frankenstein's score - thus changing the course of film music history - and (2) the general atmosphere of the piece and the presence of the two angels calling themselves «God's police» were a major influence on every one of Jean Cocteau's films from that date, including scenes in the netherworld between life and death, otherworldly judges and motocycle-riding «angels of death». Cocteau even borrows a line from Liliom («You're a funny little kid») and uses it in Beauty and the Beast's final scene («Vous êtes vraiment une drôle de petite fille»).

This transfer makes visible every elaborate miniature and all the details of the surreal (yet naive) matte paintings of Paris by night, the stars and angels in heaven and the futuristic decor of the heavenly police station while allowing to hear, for the first time, every nuance of Waxman's score. Also gone are the fuzziness and the mysterious changes in lighting intensity which marred the Kino version.

This transfer is clearly worth buying Carousel by itself. Its a true restoration that restores the magic, not only of Fritz Lang's film but also of Ferenc Molnar's original play. I can't wait to check out the other wonders of this set... :)

Baracine,

Thanks for your comments about Liliom. Paul Mavis has posted a few screencaps from the film in his review of Carousel, and they look just as good as the R2 screencaps.

Just a quick question: How long does Liliom run? Basically, I'm just curious if Fox re-transfered it properly or if they did a PAL->NTSC port. If it runs less than 116 minutes, then it's probably the latter.

[baracine]

Baracine,

Thanks for your comments about Liliom. Paul Mavis has posted a few screencaps from the film in his review of Carousel, and they look just as good as the R2 screencaps.

Just a quick question: How long does Liliom run? Basically, I'm just curious if Fox re-transfered it properly or if they did a PAL->NTSC port. If it runs less than 116 minutes, then it's probably the latter.

Liliom runs 117 minutes - a full minute longer than the Kino version - and that's strictly screen time, with the word «FIN» fading out 5 seconds before the end.

Thank you for alerting us to the updated dvdtalk review: http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=24907&___rd=1 .

BTW, check out the Cocteau-like «angels of death» from that film.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/reviews/190/1163211275.jpg

[baracine]

I checked out Oklahoma...

The bad news - which was to be expected - is that this transfer is exactly the same as the preceding edition. The film comes in two versions and the Todd-AO version on Disc 2 is still hazy and not as sharp as the Cinemascope version on Disc 1. (Increasing the sharpnesss of you monitor will only increase the grain and not the detail.)

The good news is I figured out why this time... This is a 2 hours and 25 minutes film. This particular Todd-AO film (the first of its kind) runs at 30 frames per second instead of 24 frames per second like the Cinemascope one*, so in terms of disc space, that's like engraving a 3 hours and 3 minutes film with a regular frame rate. To make the numerous extras fit, this transfer skimps on the bitrate at every occasion and that explains the lack of sharpness. You must also factor in that the Todd-AO 2.2:1 aspect ratio carries more visual information than the Cinemascope 2.55:1 ratio (16 % more information to be precise, that is 16 % less black space on each frame). In order to do the film justice, it should have been spread out on two discs by itself or, at the very least, some of the extras should have been moved to disc one or to a third disc. Which leaves the door open for yet another edition, possibly in HD...

On the plus side, this is one of the very rare instances of a film-on-DVD that has relatively no «NTSC judder» since its frame rate is almost exactly the same as the frame rate of NTSC video and that is most visible in scenes with turning wheels (which don't run backwards), picket fences (which don't have a moiré effect) and the like. The Todd-AO version also has wide-angle, deep focus and crane shots which were not possible with the limited capabilities of the comparatively primitive Cinemascope lenses. It also captures the actors in the earliest takes of each scene before they became exhausted - or more familiar - with them.

* You can demonstrate this by counting how many times you have to press on the PAUSE button to make the film advance by one second of running time: it's 30 times for the Todd-AO version and 24 times for the Cinemascope version. Interestingly, the 10-min 1955 featurette «This is Todd-AO» on the same disc is captured at 60 video frames per second (each frame is doubled in the transfer, which takes up a lot of disc space!) whereas the later (1958) «The March of Todd-AO» newsreel is back to the old 24 frames per second rate. (My thumb is sore from counting.)

[Ambassador]

Liliom runs 117 minutes - a full minute longer than the Kino version - and that's strictly screen time, with the word «FIN» fading out 5 seconds before the end.

Cool! Thanks for checking on that for me. Looks like there's absolutely no excuse not to pick this up right away.

[baracine]

Cool! Thanks for checking on that for me. Looks like there's absolutely no excuse not to pick this up right away.

I'm pretty sure the difference in length is because of the many, many missing frames in the Kino version.

[baracine]

I checked out The King and I...

It's a new transfer of a new (2004) restoration based on the original 55 mm camera negative, augmented by Y-M-C duplicates for the missing frames and with some digital work on the parts of the negative that couldn't be duplicated with this method. This restoration was very necessary, judging from the state of surviving trailers and the result is stupendous: the velvets speak to you, the silks shimmer and the contrast is optimal.

The extras include a deleted song and vintage TV footage of Patricia Morison and Yul Brynner. There are also six new featurettes of various lenghts, some of which are very detailed and almost leisurely while others are strictly no-nonsense, meat-and-potatoes, all-business, direct-to-the point, slam-bam-thank-you-mam. I had to watch the featurette called «Restoring CinemaScope 55» three times to take in all the information it contained. It offers all the facts but it goes by fast!

This is one of three films in the set (the others being Carousel and The Sound of Music) to offer an Isolated Musical Score and it is a doozer. Some of the songs have their vocals, others don't. The ones that do have more presence (in 2.0 stereo) than the 5.0 regular soundtrack. It is also an occasion to delve into the very elaborate (and Oscar-winning) incidental music Alfred Newman devised from Richard Rodgers themes and with a lot of help from an army of orchestrators, choral master Ken Darby and Rodgers associate Trude Rittman who is responsible for the «Little House of Uncle Thomas» ballet music and infused the whole score with a lot of authentic-sounding instruments and rhythms. It is interesting to note that, in suggesting South-East Asia, Rodgers went the way of Puccini, whose opera «Turandot»'s very Chinese-sounding score was almost entirely suggested by a melody he heard on a music box, rather than use the extensive research film composer Bernard Herrmann had accumulated for his score of the 1945 Anna and the King of Siam and which he put at the disposition of Rodgers (who refused politely). The secret of this exoticism is in the orchestration and the result is lush and very satisfying.

***** out of *****

P.S.: I hesitate to mention one extra that is so ludicrous, it's only good for a cheap laugh, and that is the late sixties TV pilot of a half-hour sitcom based on «The King and I» starring Samantha Eggar (doing commentary) and Yul Brynner. I only watched the first few scenes, which is a recreation of the beginning of the film with a canned laugh track and I had enough. But it does show you how complete this set is. They stopped at nothing!

[TexasDVDer]

Baracine said
"All six films, including their variants, the two versions of Oklahoma, the two versions of South Pacific, the two versions of State Fair and Liliom, as well as most of the extras are subtitled in English. All six primary films even have special singalong karaoke subtitles that move along with the sung words during the musical numbers."

Amazon says that Carousel and South Pacific have "available subtitles: Spanish" and their Oklahoma didn't state. I don't count "closed captioning" as I have a projector and it doesn't decode captioning. Thanks for the info.

[baracine]

Amazon says that Carousel and South Pacific have "available subtitles: Spanish" and their Oklahoma didn't state. I don't count "closed captioning" as I have a projector and it doesn't decode captioning. Thanks for the info.

Amazon isn't always accurate. I have the packaging before me and all three films state «subtitled in English and Spanish» as well as «Close Captioned» and I have watched all three films with their English subtitles on and off. My native tongue is French and I often rely on subtitles to make out English slang expressions, slurred lines, song lyrics and the rest, when I'm not studying the differences between the French subtitles and the French dubbing - which are often done by different people at different times - which is one my hobbies as a professional translator.

[baracine]

State Fair (1945):

The Technicolor on this film is so amazing, I suspect the colour registration has been digitally re-aligned. The fake stereo sound is also very good, as is the mono original. The film itself brings a special kind of nostalgia to me. Since I've discovered this film existed only recently, it brings all the wonder of a minor classic that nobody ever talks about - probably because it's not from MGM. But it's perfect in every way, especially in its evocation of small-town 40's Middle-America and its easy sensuality, sort of an Oklahoma for the masses. It's not too long and it's got lots of atmosphere, thanks in part to great art direction and unobtrusive special effects like the dreamy starry night sky and the fair grounds at night. It's a studio/backlot film that really feels like it was shot on location.

The background feature «From page to screen to stage» is substantial and very informative and covers the novel, all three film versions as well as the subsequent stage play.


State Fair (1962):

This one has pacing problems. It's way too long and its attempt at «modernizing» the story and the orchestrations for «today's kids» seems just a tad forced. The beginning of the film, in particular, is so inauspicious and the characters so unlovable - except maybe the pig - it makes you wonder whether the characters are destined to be murdered in their beds like in some kind of prequel to In Cold Blood. But the print and the sound are A+, the actors give it their all, the dialogue that has been salvaged from the 1945 version still works, Alfred Newman is still music director, Pamela Tiffin sure is purdy, the songs are still by R&H, the discussion of sexuality is frank for the time, the prize pigs are twice the size they were in the previous film, the exciting car race is a definite inspiration for the ones in Cars, the Texas locations are lovely and the production values are high.

The low point on this disc is not the song «Soo-ee-t Hog of Mine» sung by Tom Ewell to his pig but the pilot of an early 70's TV series based on «State Fair». Take all the problems of the 1962 version, multiply by 10, remove the sex (it's 10 years later and Marge's marriage has ended in divorce and a 9-year old problem child straigth out ot The Bad Seed) and dilute in afternoon soap-opera hogwash, complete with smalltown Jezebel... The only consolation is that it doesn't have a laugh track!

***** out of *****

[baracine]

The Sound of Music:

It's the crowd-pleasing 40th Anniversary Edition with great picture and lots of groovy extras - now in a 2-disc slim case.

***** out of *****

I'm still keeping my «Five Star Collection» 2-disc edition from 2000 because:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare8/soundofmusic/cov-5star.jpg

1. Its extras have not been duplicated on the new set, including the 87-minutes documentary «The Sound of Music: From Fact to Phenomenon» and the original 1965 documentary «Salzburg Sight and Sound», as well as the 36-minutes audio supplement with scriptwriter Ernest Lehman.

2. The transfer is interesting for comparison purposes, since it actually has a higher bitrate than the 40th Anniversary edition and plays very well - and possibly better - except on giant-size monitors.

3. The 4.1 sound is different and has bigger bass than the new 5.0 mix.

4. I have a feeling that this edition will become a collector's item before long because of those differences.

5. I like owning both editions.

From dvdbeaver's comparison (http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare8/sound-of-music.htm ):

NOTE: The Anniversary edition has forced advertisements, a trailer and the Julie Andrews introduction - which almost made me throw this package in the garbage can. You cannot watch the film or any of the 1st disc extras without this almost 4 minute intrusion.

Firstly, the Fire Star cover and the Digipak are the same editions, only with different labeling. The first The Sound of Music was issued under the "Five Star" label with a sliver jacket and in a double disc plastic case. Although a nice name, the idea never "took off". Fox came back with reinventing the packaging in a two disc digipack and then adding a numbering system on the spine. Perhaps in the same fashion as Criterion's spine numbers or the Classic Fox movies. Okay now that matter is cleared up...

Well, the new 40th Anniversary release - we've been down this road before. In a nutshell - to remove the minor digital artifacts of the 5-star edition - the new release looks softer (black levels were slightly boosted in the old edition). The improvement in the new edition (and it is improved on many fronts) becomes most noticeable when projected larger than about 60-70 inches. It is at this juncture than the digital noise and artifacts of the 5-star release become more prevalent. The 40th has had manipulations and anamorphic molding (smoothing) and, possibly excessive, digitization. Brightness may have been slightly manipulated but it is very negligible and in most sequences colors are the very similar in both releases (see last capture for most prominent example). Occasionally skin tones look redder in the old 5-Star edition. The 5-star is slightly cropped on the left, top and even less so on the bottom edge.

Subtitles and chapter stops are the same.

Audio on the 40th Anniversary has a new 5.0 that sounds very nice. Both still have the 2.0. The new has also added a Spanish DUB along with the existing French one.

Extras on the new edition are relentlessly extensive. They go on and on and on. I'm a fan of the film but I can only imagine a The Sound of Music fanatic immersing themselves in all of them. Still it is nice to have a choice. I liked the old commentary (still included) but the new one (although less technical) is a unique slant on the production.

BOTTOM LINE: If you own a tube or less than 60 inch system - upgrade only for the extras (and audio). If you have a higher end system, that can detect the flaws of the 5-star, upgrading makes more sense.

Interpolating these images on the web makes the new edition softer than it really is, or more accurately the 5-Star looks sharper and artifacts less invasive. Blown up and the differences seem to cross an axis - we noted it at around 60 inches. I suspect that the 40th anniversary may be a head of the times, but as system improve it will be the definitive until HD or BlueRay improves it beyond its present state.

Gary Tooze

[Giles]

I have yet to listen to the commentary for 'The King and I' but it's interesting to note from the supplements that the premier engagement of the film was presented in 'Grandeur 70' which later became known as 'Cinemascope 55' - why the change of name? Incidently, the featurette on 'Remembering Cinemascope 55' is fascinating if a tad too technical.

[baracine]

I have yet to listen to the commentary for 'The King and I' but it's interesting to note from the supplements that the premier engagement of the film was presented in 'Grandeur 70' which later became known as 'Cinemascope 55' - why the change of name? Incidently, the featurette on 'Remembering Cinemascope 55' is fascinating if a tad too technical.

What you saw was a 1961 re-issue trailer. Fox abandoned CinemaScope 55 after the two R&H films and switched to Todd-AO. I quote from Carr and Hayes' book «Wide Screen Movies» (highly recommended!):

Interestingly, The King and I would be reissued as a roadshow in 1961, optically converted to spherical (i.e. non-anamorphic) 70 mm and advertised in Grandeur 70 with six-track stereophonic sound!

Fox owned the Grandeur name since it started experimenting with a Mitchell and Eastman Kodak 70 mm widescreen camera of that name back in 1929. The 1961 reissue was the only time the «Grandeur 70» trademark was ever used. In reality, it was a 70 mm print reproducing the stretched out, optically printed, original 55 mm anamorphic image. The aspect ratio could have been as wide as 2.55: 1, like the original CinemaScope 55 process, but I have no proof of this. It could have been considerably narrower for a variety of reasons, like the inclusion of six tracks of sound on the film frame.

BTW, the same 1988 book states:

The 55 mm preprint of both films (Carousel and The King and I) has either been destroyed or has deterioratedto the point of unsalvageability. Even the 70 mm preprint on The King and I has turned purple. Fortunately, the pristine 35 mm reduction material for both films with the original stereophonic sound has been saved.

We now know from the restoration documentary that a restoration was still possible from the original 55 mm camera negative of The King and I with lots of help from the Y-C-M black and white Technicolor duplicates and digital manipulation.

[Giles]

What you saw was a 1961 re-issue trailer. Fox abandoned CinemaScope 55 after the two R&H films and switched to Todd-AO. I quote from Carr and Hayes' book «Wide Screen Movies» (highly recommended!):



Fox owned the Grandeur name since it started experimenting with a Mitchell and Eastman Kodak 70 mm widescreen camera of that name back in 1929.

so Cinemascope 55 and Grandeur 70 are essentially the same thing, right?

[baracine]

so Cinemascope 55 and Grandeur 70 are essentially the same thing, right?

Well, in a word, no.

CinemaScope 55 was a film whose image was squeezed two-to-one onto a 55 mm-wide piece of camera negative that had 4 times the area of a 35 mm cell. This 55 mm-wide anamorphic piece of film was optically printed (reduced) onto a conventional 35 mm film that all theatres could run, which was then unsqueezed to a 2.55:1 ratio inside the theatre. Because the 55 mm-wide piece of original film contained more information than any 35 mm film could carry, the results were extremely brilliant and even, some say, superior to films shot directly on 70 mm film (like Todd-AO). The Grandeur 70 process was a 70 mm blowup of the original 55 mm film, unsqueezed in the lab, onto 70 mm film, which was then reproduced, distributed and projected.

When the 1961 reissue came around, Fox could very well have distributed a 55 mm to 35 mm anamorphic reduction to theatres, which would then have used their standard CinemaScope projection lenses to unsqueeze it into a brilliant 2.55: 1 format ( like they did in the original release) but, by that time, Fox had phased out its CinemaScope 55 product and trademark, had switched to 70 mm Todd-AO and, in order not to confuse the public (!), came out with a new name that carried the magical «70» mention, which was then considered the new standard of quality, simply because 70 is a bigger number than 55. This was purely marketing on their part.

The original CinemaScope 55 projection probably yielded a better, clearer, sharper image than this 70 mm blowup. Why? Because in the original process the job of unsqueezing the image on the 35 mm piece of film was left to the theatre projection lens which projected the image over your head onto the screen, with practically no loss of information, whereas in the Grandeur 70 blowup process, the unsqueezing was done with mechanical (optical) means, in a laboratory, unto another, wider (70 mm) piece of film. No matter the quality control and the exquisite precision of that process, a copy is still a copy and some information is always lost in the process (except in the digital realm, of course). Besides which, the original 55 mm x 8 perforations frame was almost twice as large as the final 70 mm x 4 perforations frame, so that it wasn't so much a blowup as a reduction.

Also, by the time 1961 rolled around, more and more theatres (the classier ones) were equipped to handle 70 mm film and a prestigious «roadshow»-type reissue like the one for The King and I naturally targeted that market, which could charge higher ticket prices.

The DVD, by the way, was made from the original restored 55 mm negative, unsqueezed directly by your TV set to a 2.55:1 ratio and yields an optimal picture.

Confused yet?

[Giles]

Well, in a word, no.

CinemaScope 55 was a film whose image was squeezed two-to-one onto a 55 mm-wide piece of camera negative that had 4 times the area of a 35 mm cell. This 55 mm-wide anamorphic piece of film was optically printed (reduced) onto a conventional 35 mm film that all theatres could run, which was then unsqueezed to a 2.55:1 ratio in the theatre. Because the 55 mm-wide piece of original film contained more information than any 35 mm film could carry, the results were extremely brilliant and even, some say, superior to films shot directly on 70 mm film (like Todd-AO). The Grandeur 70 mm process was a 70 mm blowup of the original 55 mm film, unsqueezed, onto 70 mm film.

When the 1961 reissue came around, Fox could very well have distributed a 55 mm to 35 mm anamorphic reduction to theatres, which would then have used their standard CinemaScope projection lenses to unsqueeze it into a brilliant 2.55: 1 format ( like they did in the original release) but, by that time, Fox had phased out its CinemaScope 55 product and trademark, had switched to 70 mm Todd-AO and, in order not to confuse the public (!), came out with a new name that carried the magical «70» mention, which was then considered the new standard of quality, simply because 70 is a bigger number than 55. This was purely marketing. The original CinemaScope 55 projection probably yielded a better, clearer, sharper image than this 70 mm blowup.

The DVD, by the way, was made from the original restored 55 mm negative, unsqueezed for your TV set to a 2.55:1 ratio and yields an optimal picture.

Confused yet?

being at work and trying to multitask, I literally had to reread this around four times til it made somewhat sense. As I understand it, Carousel and The King and I were shot originally in Cinemascope 55 but never theatrically released as such (according to Wikpedia) - the theatrical engagements were remastered and renamed to 70mm: 'Grandeur 70'

[baracine]

being at work and trying to multitask, I literally had to reread this around four times til it made somewhat sense. As I understand it, 'Carousel' and 'The King and I' were shot originally in Cinemascope 55, 'South Pacific' in Todd-AO.

Yes. And you'll have to re-read my post again. I just re-wrote it with more details. (Oklahoma and Sound of Music were also shot in Todd-AO.)

The restoration documentary on The King and I explains (very fast) that this process has become unpractical because of all the proprietary equipment needed to manufacture, film, develop, handle, reproduce, etc. such an unusual film gauge as 55 mm-wide x 8 perforations high.

More useless information: At one point, in 1957, Fox toyed with the idea of distributing CinemaScope 55 films in the 55 mm format directly to theatres (to be unsqueezed to a 2.55:1 ratio on the screen). This would have eliminated one step of the process, the 55-to-35 mm reduction, and thus have increased the quality of the picture but it would also have required American theatre owners to buy expensive equipment to adapt their conventional 35 mm projectors to this new, strange 55 mm gauge. I quote from Carr and Hayes' book again:

De Luxe Tour, a short, was shot in 55 mm, shown in one Bronx theatre in 1957, and shelved until the 1960s when it would be screened, with new narration, in 35 mm only.

More info on the differences between CinemaScope 55 and Grandeur 70: http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs6.htm
and http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs7.htm .

[baracine]

DVD Savant's review of South Pacific CE (he has mixed feelings):

http://www.dvdsavant.com/s2168paci.html

DVD Savant's misgivings are about Joshua Logan's static direction, not the DVD or the transfer. He says he likes the extra footage of the Road Show version in the «Balai Haï/Boar's Tooth Ceremony» scenes. I've watched the DVD twice and I find it very difficult to distinguish between the yellow-filtered scenes of the standard version and the added extra footage of the Road Show version in those «island» scenes. This yellowed footage appears very similar to the yellow-filtered scenes and I, for one, couldn't tell the difference until it was pointed out by DVD Savant and the disc commentary.

Very often only a few seconds are lifted, but almost four minutes has been leeched from the visit to Bali Ha'i. The Boars' Tooth ceremony is mostly phony "Ooga Booga" stuff that went out with Frank Buck, but quite a few mood moments in the jungle with Liat and Cable are sorely missed.

:editking: