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View Full Version : Five Most Important Religious Trends of 2005


Venusian
01-05-06, 12:37 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10696190/site/newsweek/

1. Pathetic prayer. Churches are more concerned with programming than with prayer.

2. The continuing demise of the black church.

3. The energizing of the evangelicals. Although only 7 percent of adults are evangelicals, their voice is the loudest and their energy, charity, Bible study, and prayer life is the greatest.

4. Biblical illiteracy. The Barna Group has discovered that most Christians (and I would add most Jews) are in increasing numbers biblically illiterate.

5. Revolutionaries. Barna labels as “Christian revolutionaries” the more than 20 million people who are pursuing their Christian faith outside the box.



The charitable work of the "evangelicals" is interesting. I also doubt only 7% of adults are evangelicals, but it seems everyone has different definitions of it.

Revolutionaires is an interesting term. I think it's a bit harsh for someone who just worships in a different way.

sracer
01-05-06, 12:45 PM
That article shows what many of us Christians have seen for quite a while...
That people are being pushed to one side or the other. "Fence-sitters" and those who are a bit nebulous about their faith are being forced to stand up or step aside.

Interesting.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 12:53 PM
Woohoo, I'm a revolutionary!

Venusian
01-05-06, 12:56 PM
when one of my friends suggested we start a "revolution" at our church another said revolutions are cyclical by nature, a better choice would be to start evolution.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 12:59 PM
1. Pathetic prayer. Churches are more concerned with programming than with prayer.Good. I've never been big on the group prayer thing. In fact, I don't believe in it at all.4. Biblical illiteracy. The Barna Group has discovered that most Christians (and I would add most Jews) are in increasing numbers biblically illiterate.That's really nothing new. I routinely engage in debates with people who go to church once or more each week, yet haven't even the simplest grasp of what it is that scripture actually says.I also doubt only 7% of adults are evangelicals, but it seems everyone has different definitions of it.I'm a Christian and even I don't know what it means.
Revolutionaires is an interesting term. I think it's a bit harsh for someone who just worships in a different way.I kind of like it. Of course, I tend to think of change as something positive.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 12:59 PM
evolution.Heathen!



;)

grrrah
01-05-06, 01:01 PM
6. Bringing back Christmas!

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:04 PM
Don't believe in group prayer? You should. I happens all the time. Don't believe it should happen? well that's something else :p Either way, I think it can be argued that believers should pray, even if it is just in private. Talking to God is more important than some program.

I liked the Newsweek poll that said some huge percent of evangelicals believed you could get to Heaven some other way than Christ. Their definition of evngelical was someone who believed Christ was the only way to heaven (along with other things).



The whole evolution thing was a coversation in jest but it has started to grow on me. I think I might start a Bible Study at my house called "evolve". It will be based on Rom 12:2. Still tossing the idea around in my head

sracer
01-05-06, 01:05 PM
I'm a Christian and even I don't know what it means.

Setting aside any social or political stigma attached to the phrase "Evangelical Christian", it means...

A person who believes in the following 5 points:
• The triune nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit…the trinity)
• The deity of Jesus (Jesus was fully man and fully God)
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The atoning work of Christ on the cross
• Salvation by grace through faith alone

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:11 PM
where'd you get that sracer? Just curious

kvrdave
01-05-06, 01:12 PM
The Black Church thing is interesting. I would like to know more about it, honestly.

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:13 PM
according to wikipedia:

John C. Green, director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron in Ohio, found in the 2004 American Religious Landscape Report [1] that despite many variations, evangelicals in the United States generally adhere to four core beliefs:

1. Biblical inerrancy
2. Salvation comes only through faith in Jesus and not good works
3. Individuals (above an age of accountability) must personally trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.
4. All Christians are commissioned to evangelize

Numanoid
01-05-06, 01:13 PM
Setting aside any social or political stigma attached to the phrase "Evangelical Christian", it means...

A person who believes in the following 5 points:
• The triune nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit…the trinity)
• The deity of Jesus (Jesus was fully man and fully God)
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The atoning work of Christ on the cross
• Salvation by grace through faithThat's pretty near all of them (us), isn't it?

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:17 PM
According to Newsweek, a little less specific:

Evangelicalism
1846, LONDON
A largely Protestant movement in which members are "born again" or saved. Followers stress the importance of Scripture, converting nonbelievers and growing closer to God.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9024970/site/newsweek/

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:19 PM
Barna's definition is more exhaustive:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=17

We categorize an “evangelical” based upon their answers to nine questions about faith matters. Those included in this segment meet the criteria for being born again; say their faith is very important in their life today; believe they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believe that Satan exists; believe that the eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and describe God as the all-knowing , all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Thus, evangelicals are a subset of the born again population.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 01:20 PM
The Black Church thing is interesting. I would like to know more about it, honestly.They attribute it to the rising wealth of blacks, but I'd venture that it has more to do with the urban versus rural population of black Americans. It's just a gut feeling, but I imagine that a person living in the rural South is more likely to go to church than a person living in a major city.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 01:22 PM
believe they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-ChristiansThis seems to be the common characteristic that might distinguish them from any other Christian group (which holds the same beliefs). Essentially, they are the "in your face" Christians.

Gil Jawetz
01-05-06, 01:24 PM
That's an interesting article, but what the hell is this ad?
:whofart:
http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/6304/160x600auddrmsg5ec.jpg

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:27 PM
This seems to be the common characteristic that might distinguish them from any other Christian group (which holds the same beliefs). Essentially, they are the "in your face" Christians.
they would argue they are just obeying the Great Commission ;)

I think one can share their faith without being "in your face"

Numanoid
01-05-06, 01:32 PM
I think one can share their faith without being "in your face"I engage in religious discussion often (here for example), but if I go around starting up discussions out of the blue with the sole intention of getting you to believe in Jesus, I don't see how anyone might take that as anything other than being "in your face". And I think that is exactly what these Evangelicals do.

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:33 PM
I engage in religious discussion often (here for example), but if I go around starting up discussions out of the blue with the sole intention of getting you to believe in Jesus, I don't see how anyone might take that as anything other than being "in your face". And I think that is exactly what these Evangelicals do.
i consider myself an evangelical and i dont do that

Numanoid
01-05-06, 01:37 PM
Then you are apparently using a different definition than those above.

Venusian
01-05-06, 01:51 PM
well I believe I have a personal responsibility to share my religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians. but that doesn't mean i stand on the street corners preaching. it means I (try to) live my life in such a way that people see somethign they want in theirs.

Groucho
01-05-06, 01:57 PM
I'm curious, in what way can a Christian live their life that a non-Christian cannot?

talemyn
01-05-06, 02:03 PM
but that doesn't mean i stand on the street corners preaching. it means I (try to) live my life in such a way that people see somethign they want in theirs.I'm with you on that one.

The whole "faith, not works" requirement always gets me because, in my mind, the two are so interconnected that it doesn't make to split them out. If you you say you have faith, but aren't showing it in your actions, then you should really question whether or not you have faith. To me it seems just as hollow as doing good deeds without having the "purpose" (i.e. faith) behind them.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 02:06 PM
well I believe I have a personal responsibility to share my religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians. but that doesn't mean i stand on the street corners preaching. it means I (try to) live my life in such a way that people see somethign they want in theirs.I sincerely doubt that is what the Evangelicals do. Followers stress the importance of Scripture, converting nonbelievers"Stress" being the key word here.

Venusian
01-05-06, 02:07 PM
If you you say you have faith, but aren't showing it in your actions, then you should really question whether or not you have faith.
been reading James lately?

Venusian
01-05-06, 02:08 PM
I'm curious, in what way can a Christian live their life that a non-Christian cannot?
free crackers and juice?

Venusian
01-05-06, 02:09 PM
I sincerely doubt that is what the Evangelicals do. "Stress" being the key word here.
i'm not saying that's what the majority of them do, i'm just saying they dont have to be the in your face christians and still be evangelicals

JasonF
01-05-06, 02:09 PM
That's an interesting article, but what the hell is this ad?
:whofart:
http://img497.imageshack.us/img497/6304/160x600auddrmsg5ec.jpg

I believe dontread.org is the website of Gay Pirates with Laptop Computers, Inc.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 02:15 PM
i'm not saying that's what the majority of them do, i'm just saying they dont have to be the in your face christians and still be evangelicalsWell I can call myself a turnip but that doesn't mean that I am one.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 02:16 PM
I believe dontread.org is the website of Gay Pirates with Laptop Computers, Inc.They pronounce it "don't tread" dot org.

DodgingCars
01-05-06, 02:20 PM
I'm curious, in what way can a Christian live their life that a non-Christian cannot?

With a passion for God/Jesus?

I know you're trying to get at the whole "atheists can be moral people" or "Christians are hypocrits" thing -- but in reality, it's true that a Christian is probably more likely to live a different life than a non-Christian. Can a non-Christian live that way? Probably, but they don't tend to.

talemyn
01-05-06, 02:21 PM
been reading James lately?One of my favorite parts. :)

talemyn
01-05-06, 02:21 PM
free crackers and juice?:lol: rotfl :lol:

Gil Jawetz
01-05-06, 02:26 PM
With a passion for God/Jesus?

I know you're trying to get at the whole "atheists can be moral people" or "Christians are hypocrits" thing -- but in reality, it's true that a Christian is probably more likely to live a different life than a non-Christian. Can a non-Christian live that way? Probably, but they don't tend to.

I was with you until the last part. Saying that a christian is more likely to live their life with a love of Christ than a non-Christian is a no brainer, like saying that a swimmer is more likely to get wet than a sprinter. But in no way does being a christian make a person more likely to live life in a moral way or diminish the capacity for non-christians to be moral. That's nonsense.

Bushdog
01-05-06, 02:30 PM
With a passion for God/Jesus?

I know you're trying to get at the whole "atheists can be moral people" or "Christians are hypocrits" thing -- but in reality, it's true that a Christian is probably more likely to live a different life than a non-Christian. Can a non-Christian live that way? Probably, but they don't tend to.
A passion for Jesus, that makes perfect sense.

But, I don't quite get your other point. What is the life that a Christian is more likely to lead than a non-Christian?

talemyn
01-05-06, 02:38 PM
Maybe the point was that they have more of a drive to do so, than a non-religious person. It certainly wouldn't make sense if it was all non-Christians.

Venusian
01-05-06, 02:46 PM
The Sunday School answer would be that a Christian would be more likely to demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit than a non-Christian. Of course the fruits are merely external demonstrations of an internal change.


I dont think Christians are more likely to live moral lives than nonChristians. I think they would be more convicted about it though (just based on my pre-Christian/Christian experience)

sracer
01-05-06, 03:09 PM
• The triune nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit…the trinity)
• The deity of Jesus (Jesus was fully man and fully God)
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The atoning work of Christ on the cross
• Salvation by grace through faith

That's pretty near all of them (us), isn't it?
Nope. Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in all 5 and yet they consider themselves Christians.

Groucho
01-05-06, 03:18 PM
A Christian is probably more likely to live a different life than a non-Christian. Can a non-Christian live that way? Probably, but they don't tend to.But specifically, what I'm looking for is what about the "Christian way of life" is special that simply living it would evangelize non-Christians? "Hey, that looks pretty good!"

sracer
01-05-06, 03:19 PM
A passion for Jesus, that makes perfect sense.

But, I don't quite get your other point. What is the life that a Christian is more likely to lead than a non-Christian?
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. It is possible that non-Christians might act that way, but Christians are specifically instructed to.

When one understands what is required of a Christian (again, as written in the New Testament) it is easy to see who the "fake" ones are and that many of us fall short.

kvrdave
01-05-06, 03:44 PM
I don't know. I am confident that compared to you schmoes, I am far more moral. And humility? Freaking off the charts, over here!!! You guys suck.

Numanoid
01-05-06, 03:53 PM
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. In modern American society they are known as "hippies". :D

Venusian
01-05-06, 03:58 PM
Numanoid, have you read anything by Don Miller?

sracer
01-05-06, 04:00 PM
I don't know. I am confident that compared to you schmoes, I am far more moral. And humility? Freaking off the charts, over here!!! You guys suck.
http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/5978/spit1lf.gif

Bandoman
01-05-06, 04:06 PM
I believe dontread.org is the website of Gay Pirates with Laptop Computers, Inc.


The Gay Ninjas would kick their asses.

printerati
01-05-06, 04:32 PM
Nope. Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in all 5 and yet they consider themselves Christians.

As a Catholic, I would say I believe in all five, although I consider the last one to be incomplete.

Venusian
01-05-06, 04:34 PM
incomplete?

Dead
01-05-06, 04:54 PM
As a Catholic, I would say I believe in all five, although I consider the last one to be incomplete.


Are you thinking something along the lines of "salvation by grace through faith which produces works"? When I saw he included Catholics, I though he was incorrect but that some of my Catholic (and former Catholic) friends might want something like that added.

shifrbv
01-05-06, 04:55 PM
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. It is possible that non-Christians might act that way, but Christians are specifically instructed to.

With as many churches as the US has, you would think you would see people like this. Even the ones I know who go to church don't act even remotely in a "jesus-like" way. Is there such a thing as a hippie church? It seems people are too caught up in semantics.

Besides, Jesus didn't even have a church. He was on the road and when he went in to a place of worship, all he did was teach the people there what they were doing wrong or criticize. He probably would do the same today.

ivelostr2
01-05-06, 05:13 PM
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. It is possible that non-Christians might act that way, but Christians are specifically instructed to.

When one understands what is required of a Christian (again, as written in the New Testament) it is easy to see who the "fake" ones are and that many of us fall short.

But does it REALLY count that the reason you (not you sracer, i'm talking about the ideal) care for others more than yourself is because you were "instructed" to and fear the repercussion of not doing so?
Hypothetical situation, 2 people live their lives neither robbing banks. One doesn't rob banks because he has no desire to, the other doesn't rob banks becasue he is afriad of going to jail.
Are these people essentially different?
Is the one who does it because he is afraid of jail better than the other?

talemyn
01-05-06, 05:18 PM
But does it REALLY count that the reason you (not you sracer, i'm talking about the ideal) care for others more than yourself is because you were "instructed" to and fear the repercussion of not doing so?
Hypothetical situation, 2 people live their lives neither robbing banks. One doesn't rob banks because he has no desire to, the other doesn't rob banks becasue he is afriad of going to jail.
Are these people essentially different?
Is the one who does it because he is afraid of jail better than the other?In that example, ther is probably not much difference, but if you compared someone who did rob a bank because they didn't want to get caught with someone who didn't rob a bank because they believed it was wrong to deprive others of their money, then, yes, I think the latter demonstrates a better person.

kvrdave
01-05-06, 05:18 PM
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. It is possible that non-Christians might act that way, but Christians are specifically instructed to.

With as many churches as the US has, you would think you would see people like this. Even the ones I know who go to church don't act even remotely in a "jesus-like" way. Is there such a thing as a hippie church? It seems people are too caught up in semantics.

Besides, Jesus didn't even have a church. He was on the road and when he went in to a place of worship, all he did was teach the people there what they were doing wrong or criticize. He probably would do the same today.

You're starting to make me think Jesus was better at this than I am. -wink-

Trout
01-05-06, 05:29 PM
Nope. Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in all 5 and yet they consider themselves Christians.

I know quite a few Evangelical/Fundamentalists who would say that Catholics and the others are not Christians (a lot of Baptists believe this).

sracer
01-05-06, 05:54 PM
But does it REALLY count that the reason you (not you sracer, i'm talking about the ideal) care for others more than yourself is because you were "instructed" to and fear the repercussion of not doing so?
Yes, it does count. There is no repercussion for not doing so. Because Christians believe in the free gift of salvation. We didn't do anything to earn it. Those things are done out of a heart of gratitude. It isn't "normal" for people to behaving in a selfless manner. It goes against our natural tendencies.

sracer
01-05-06, 05:58 PM
Which one(s) do Catholics not believe in?
Catholics do not believe in the last one, Salvation by Grace through Faith alone. The Catholic church declared (at the Council of Trent and confirmed at Vatican II) that anyone proclaiming that Salvation is by Grace alone is anathema (cursed to the lowest level of Hell).

kvrdave
01-05-06, 06:00 PM
Catholics do not believe in the last one, Salvation by Grace through Faith alone. The Catholic church declared (at the Council of Trent and confirmed at Vatican II) that anyone proclaiming that Salvation is by Grace alone is anathema (cursed to the lowest level of Hell).

crap :(

Actually, there are 2 interesting Catholics books on the subject. Not by Faith Alone and Not by Scripture Alone.

sracer
01-05-06, 06:02 PM
A "true" Christian (one who tries to live a life as outlined in the NT letters) is more likely to care for others more than themselves, to reach out in kindness to those in need, have a light touch on the things of the world, not stress about trouble, etc. It is possible that non-Christians might act that way, but Christians are specifically instructed to.

With as many churches as the US has, you would think you would see people like this. Even the ones I know who go to church don't act even remotely in a "jesus-like" way. Is there such a thing as a hippie church? It seems people are too caught up in semantics.
That's unfortunate. The church I attend (a Calvary Chapel) is like that... and is somewhat conservative, but if it is "hippie" to be that way, then I guess ours is a hippie church. :lol: Calvary Chapel was founded by Chuck Smith in the 60's in part, to reach out to hippies, so there ya go. :D

Numanoid
01-05-06, 06:10 PM
That's unfortunate. The church I attend (a Calvary Chapel) is like that... and is somewhat conservative, but if it is "hippie" to be that way, then I guess ours is a hippie church. :lol: Calvary Chapel was founded by Chuck Smith in the 60's in part, to reach out to hippies, so there ya go. :DChrist was probably the biggest and greatest hippie of all time, which is why I throw up in my throat a little every time I see the conservative element of our country wrapping themselves up in Him.

Dead
01-05-06, 06:11 PM
Catholics do not believe in the last one, Salvation by Grace through Faith alone. ...

Odd, I don't see the word "alone" in the last one! :)

Numanoid
01-05-06, 06:11 PM
Numanoid, have you read anything by Don Miller?No sir.

movielib
01-05-06, 07:12 PM
[H]ave you read anything by Don Miller?
He sells cars in my town.

http://www.donmillersubaru.com/en_US/

I shall look into it. However, I do prefer Toyotas.

kvrdave
01-05-06, 07:48 PM
Christ was probably the biggest and greatest hippie of all time, which is why I throw up in my throat a little every time I see the conservative element of our country wrapping themselves up in Him.

Biggest. troll. post. ever.



-wink-

Duran
01-05-06, 07:58 PM
Because Christians believe in the free gift of salvation.

It's only free if you don't have to believe or do anything to get it. ;)

kvrdave
01-05-06, 08:07 PM
It's only free if you don't have to believe or do anything to get it. ;)

Bah, if you want a free meal from Denny's on your birthday, you still have to go there. :lol:

covenant
01-05-06, 10:21 PM
but that doesn't mean i stand on the street corners preaching. it means I (try to) live my life in such a way that people see somethign they want in theirs.

Hard Core evangelicals poo poo lifestyle-evangelism

....how does it go?....

ah yes....

if the bridge is out you've got to tell everyone headed that way.

A little Jack Hyles for everyone:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20Jack%20Hyles/Enemies%20of%20Soul%20Winning/lifestyle_evangelism-enemy.htm

Jeez....that's back from my ooooold days. Before I became a reprobate ;)

printerati
01-05-06, 10:59 PM
Are you thinking something along the lines of "salvation by grace through faith which produces works"? When I saw he included Catholics, I though he was incorrect but that some of my Catholic (and former Catholic) friends might want something like that added.

Yes. See I Corinthians 13 (http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53013.htm).

I admit I have no idea whether the King James version changes or lessens its impact. I've always used the Douay-Rheims version, which isn't missing any books. ;)

Venusian
01-06-06, 11:58 AM
No sir.
you should. i think you would really like it and i'd be interested to hear your take on his stuff. start with Blue Like Jazz

Venusian
01-06-06, 11:59 AM
As a Christian, I'm not going to say anyone isn't a real Christian. But the Catholic Encyclopedia online says that you have to be baptized to be saved and I dont believe that

kvrdave
01-06-06, 12:09 PM
As a Christian, I'm not going to say anyone isn't a real Christian. But the Catholic Encyclopedia online says that you have to be baptized to be saved and I dont believe that

Bah, you're only saying that because the first Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before the were baptized. -wink-

Venusian
01-06-06, 12:11 PM
and that pesky theif on the cross didn't get baptized either

printerati
01-06-06, 02:37 PM
But the Catholic Encyclopedia online says that you have to be baptized to be saved and I dont believe that

The Catholic Church recognizes three types of baptism. Paraphrased from St. Alphonsus Ligouri:

1. Baptism of water, which speaks for itself.

2. Baptism of blood, whereby someone who is not baptized can be saved by dying in defense of the Catholic faith or some other Christian virtue.

3. Baptism of desire, which is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water. (This explains Christ's promise to the "good thief" that he will be with Him in Paradise.)

It should be noted that an "imperfect" conversion would be borne out of fear of punishment (i.e. going to Hell), rather than genuine love for God, and genuine sorrow from offending Him by sin (i.e. contrition). It is entirely possible to be saved without the traditional baptism of water, provided you are in the proper mindset at the point of death.

Dead
01-06-06, 03:13 PM
And, as a Catholic, I believe that many fundamentalists aren't really Christians either. I'm looking at you Pat Robertson.


And, as a fundamentalist, I believe that many fundamentalists aren't really Christians either.


By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So by their fruits you will know them.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Gil Jawetz
01-06-06, 03:32 PM
Jeez, how did Pat miss that one?

maxfisher
01-06-06, 04:14 PM
Bah, if you want a free meal from Denny's on your birthday, you still have to go there. :lol:

Yeah, but if they offer it with those conditions to a quadroplegic with no one to take him, it's not exactly fair... ;)

(Not everyone is capable of suspending what they believe to be true and forcing themselves to believe something else.)

Breakfast with Girls
01-06-06, 06:20 PM
I know you're trying to get at the whole "atheists can be moral people" or "Christians are hypocrits" thing -- but in reality, it's true that a Christian is probably more likely to live a different life than a non-Christian. Can a non-Christian live that way? Probably, but they don't tend to.That seems like a pretty naive statement. I've met Christians who live moral lives, and I've met Christians who live immoral lives. I've met atheists who live ethical lives, and I've met atheists who don't. The proportion is about the same for both, in my experience.

Dead
01-06-06, 06:22 PM
That seems like a pretty naive statement. I've met Christians who live moral lives, and I've met Christians who live immoral lives. I've met atheists who live ethical lives, and I've met atheists who don't. The proportion is about the same for both, in my experience.


See post 77.

Breakfast with Girls
01-06-06, 06:36 PM
See post 77.I'm familiar, but that seems like a pretty convenient position, doesn't it? If the only Christians are moral Christians, what determines "moral"? The Bible? There are plenty of interpretations of morality there.

I guess I don't understand. Are you saying that Christians are always going to lead more moral lives than atheists, because your definition of Christian includes "leads a moral life"?

kvrdave
01-06-06, 06:45 PM
That seems like a pretty naive statement. I've met Christians who live moral lives, and I've met Christians who live immoral lives. I've met atheists who live ethical lives, and I've met atheists who don't. The proportion is about the same for both, in my experience.

This is about all the beer I drank in Seattle, isn't it. :grunt:

Dead
01-07-06, 11:04 AM
I'm familiar, but that seems like a pretty convenient position, doesn't it? If the only Christians are moral Christians, what determines "moral"? The Bible? There are plenty of interpretations of morality there.

I guess I don't understand. Are you saying that Christians are always going to lead more moral lives than atheists, because your definition of Christian includes "leads a moral life"?


You said "The proportion is about the same for both, in my experience." I was just pointing out one reason that this was the case.

I wouldn't say anything is "always" though. Some Christians will lead very immoral lives and some atheists will lead very moral ones.