Just went to see Narnia - But feel like i just got out of church [Archive]

skiblet

12-09-05, 04:23 PM

i saw Chron. of Narnia today. just some feedback, on my perspective -

*semi spoilers ahead*

Well, i never read the books as a child, and only had the vaguest idea of the story and plot. I had heard maybe once or twice that there are some elements of the story that are paralells or metaphors for christianity. I thought, ok fine whatever the trailer looks kick ass, so im going.

If your an atheiest, or not a big fan of christianity (like me), then you might have a difficult time completely enjoying the film. Visually, the film is stunning - the animations, the screenplay, the CGI, the monsters and creatures are just absolutely stunning. But, i just couldnt get over the feeling that the entire show was just a excuse for someone to subject and subconsciously impose the story of their religion on me. The movie uses glaringly and overtly obvious paralells to christianity, so much that i wonder how many viewers will start to doubt the strength of C.S. Lewis' imagination and creativity (since the entire essence of the movie's moral delivery are a direct copycat of orthodox christianity). Thats fine and all, and if you are a christian then you will be very comfortable with the story. The problem that I had with the movie was - the flavor was just so.. ., disney-ish. Yes, i realize that it is more of a childrens story, but this is a childrens story that is animated to take itself VERY seriously - to offer a sense of sanitized conflict that both child and adult can watch, and enjoy. Im not sure if that works or not.

This movie reaks of LOTR envy. It truly is beautiful to watch, but the story itself is an infantile attempt at creativity, and doesnt hold a candle to lord of the rings. It is merely a well polished and attractive propaganda tool, that makes no secret at all about its intentions to impose the authors religious views upon the viewer. Its definately worth viewing, as long as you can withstand the propaganda value.

Graphics, CGI, monsters and fantasy effects = A+
Story, moral impact, meaningfullness = C -

wewantflair

12-09-05, 04:32 PM

Just a note - the original publication of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is 1950. The original publication date of the Fellowship of the Ring is 1954. LOTR envy, indeed.

Sierra Disc

12-09-05, 04:32 PM

Not to threadcrap, but it sounds like you went in with your own biases already in place and reacted accordingly?

I haven't seen it yet myself, but I'm interested in how preachy it really is. I haven't been a regular churchgoer in 20 years and also have my issues with Christianity, but I grew up on the books and never thought of them as propaganda myself. Except of course for the whole Aslan bit at the end, which I won't spoil.

skiblet

12-09-05, 04:39 PM

Just a note - the original publication of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is 1950. The original publication date of the Fellowship of the Ring is 1954. LOTR envy, indeed.

Thanks for your footnote, but this thread and discussion is about the movies, not the books.

Artman

12-09-05, 04:41 PM

So I guess this is our review thread now eh? Looking forward to seeing it even more!

If Jesus Christ isn't mentioned by name I don't see how lessons of courage and sacrifice can be that offensive. They've been present in other well known series.

edit: The idea behind the central character's fate is nothing new in films either, though Christ is the only religous figure to do so.

bigsoos

12-09-05, 04:45 PM

This movie reaks of LOTR envy.
C.S. Lewis and Tolken were good friends.

wewantflair

12-09-05, 04:47 PM

Thanks for your footnote, but this thread and discussion is about the movies, not the books.

You made explicit comments regarding their respective stories. Lewis published his before Tolkien. As such, suggesting that Lewis' story begs anything of Tolkien's is just dumb.

Hokeyboy

12-09-05, 04:52 PM

Tygan

12-09-05, 05:02 PM

skiblet

12-09-05, 05:04 PM

I think he meant the movie "reaks" of the LOTR movies, not a story comparison.

Anyway, I read the books as a kid and adored the living hell out of all of them. I re-read the entire series about four years ago and totally picked up the Christian allegory and what Tolkien was aiming for as presenting Christianity as a "true myth", i.e. what would the story be like if God sent his son to a fantasy world, not as a man but as a lion. And it was FASCINATING and enriched my love of the series. And I am neither a Christian nor a religious person by any stretch.

You view it as imposition. I view it as storytelling. And masterful storytelling at that, although I never liked what the final fate of one of the four kids at ALL.

good post there.

Well, im not a religious person, or a christian and this is because i had a very bad experience with it in my childhood, and was subjected to it on a daily basis. So, perhaps you can understand why I might resist that. I am quite sure that I overreacted in my post above - but i soemtimes exaderate (sp?) to get my point across.

And yes, i meant that this movie gets its face slapped in comparison to the lord of the rings movies. This is a low calorie "diet" fantasy movie. Its a good one, and a nice thing to look at, but I just didnt like the feeling that I was watching a bible story that had the biblical characters swapped with fantasy characters.

Id love to hear other peoples comments who went to see it today. Its a beautiful film, and honestly and truly the CGI animals alone are worth the price of the ticket. The minotaurs and wolves are great !

DodgingCars

12-09-05, 05:10 PM

You could also say that Frodo sacrificed himself for the sake of Middle Earth just like Jesus did.

You could also say that Gandalf sacrificed himself for the sake of the Fellowship and then returned just like Jesus did.

Basically both stories have themes of self-sacrifice...it's just that the church has latched onto Narnia because C.S. Lewis is usually associated with Christianity. I believe at the time of writing the books, Lewis was not even Christian.

Actually, I would say the Church has latched on to both. However, Tolkein said his work was never meant to be allegorical to anything (in fact he didn't like allegory) -- yet, there is certainly elements of LOTR which come from a place within Tolkein that is very personal -- the story of good vs evil and self-sacrafice are surely a product of his religious faith, his feelings about WWII, and his views on nature and industry... He just intend for them to be allegorical.

Lewis, on the other hand, wrote an allegorical story on purpose. These themes and plot points didn't just seep in because of his religious faith, he put them there on purpose.

I'm not sure that I would be offended by it if I weren't Christian though. I'm not offended by the Budhist themes in some martial arts flicks like Crouching Tiger.

Jackskeleton

12-09-05, 05:12 PM

While I'm not really sure what an atheiest is, perhaps a more atheist than another atheist person. In anycase, as just simply an atheist fella, I have seen this film and I had no problem with it.

Why? Because much like the bible, I see a film as a simple story telling made for the purpose of getting across a moral tale.

It is merely a well polished and attractive propaganda tool,

You are reading far too much into it. I'm anti-religion because of my belief but really.. this is far from propaganda.

that makes no secret at all about its intentions to impose the authors religious views upon the viewer.

I don't recall them saying anything about Jesus anytime through it. Sure, they made similar connections. But it's storytelling.

I think he meant the movie "reaks" of the LOTR movies, not a story comparison.

It looks like he really was jabbing at the story telling of it and calling it a LOTR knock off.

but the story itself is an infantile attempt at creativity

I'm not sure that I would be offended by it if I weren't Christian though. I'm not offended by the Budhist themes in some martial arts flicks like Crouching Tiger.

I love you for saying that. Exactly how I feel about this matter and why it didn't bother me in the slightest to have those undertones in there.

nodeerforamonth

12-09-05, 05:13 PM

Well if you think the church and Christianity is fiction to begin with, why would you have a problem with a movie? Aren't most movies fiction anyways?

uberjoe

12-09-05, 05:14 PM

You made explicit comments regarding their respective stories. Lewis published his before Tolkien. As such, suggesting that Lewis' story begs anything of Tolkien's is just dumb.

As others pointed out, his comment was clearly in reference to the movie and the way it presents it scenes, not the story. Much the same way people continually say large battle scenes remind them of Braveheart.

I had a similar thought when I saw the Narnia trailer: "Looks like LOTR battles, but with little kids in the mix."

skiblet

12-09-05, 05:27 PM

Well if you think the church and Christianity is fiction to begin with, why would you have a problem with a movie? Aren't most movies fiction anyways?

actually, im not sure. Its a personal problem. Kind of like, if you have a bad experience with something, you will notice that certain things will remind you of it, and that can even sometimes lead to some unexplained negativity that will just be permanently imprinted into your subconscious mind, making it difficult or impossible to allow yourself to believe something. Over the years, I have grown really skeptical and even cynical of anything thats supernatual, or superstitious.
I dont know why that is. Perhaps im afraid of something.

Dr. DVD

12-09-05, 05:30 PM

FWIW, I am glad they didn't feel the need to do a Braveheart speech at the battle scene.

In terms of the movie, I felt I was being entertained, not preached toward. One question: the previews and the movie refer to the kids as "two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve." I am not too up to date on my C.S. Lewis, but is Narnia supposed to be an aged form of Eden? I noticed it was populated by animals mostly, and it also talks about the ancient laws/early days as if they were during creation/genesis.

Groucho

12-09-05, 05:30 PM

Wow, you seem quite upset by the movie. I didn't know there were black people in it.

skiblet

12-09-05, 05:37 PM

Wow, you seem quite upset by the movie. I didn't know there were black people in it.

I was pretty much waiting for the black jab. LOL. you clearly beat these other slackers to it.

The minotaur was black, he kinda bothered me a little bit. JK.

Groucho

12-09-05, 05:42 PM

;) Just yanking your chain.

For your next trick, go to Video Game Talk and declare that the N64 is the "greatest console ever."

Jackskeleton

12-09-05, 05:46 PM

I can't wait for next weeks thread about Kong.

"Just went to see King Kong - But feel like I just left a Furry convention"

modfather

12-09-05, 05:56 PM

skiblet

12-09-05, 06:00 PM

I can't wait for next weeks thread about Kong.

"Just went to see King Kong - But feel like I just left a Furry convention"

LOL. rotfl

nah itll probably say,

"Just went to see King Kong - but fell asleep 18 hours into it. " his films are kinda long, i just hope we dont have to wait 2 hours to see kong like it went in hulk.

Legolas

12-09-05, 06:23 PM

Not to threadcrap, but it sounds like you went in with your own biases already in place and reacted accordingly?

Polly Toynbee's No.1 fan?

Inverse

12-09-05, 06:35 PM

You made explicit comments regarding their respective stories. Lewis published his before Tolkien. As such, suggesting that Lewis' story begs anything of Tolkien's is just dumb.

Actually, in this case it's not. Tolkien and Lewis were friends, and Tolkien began work on Lord of the Rings well over a decade before it was published. By 1950 Lewis had read/heard large chunks of the LOTR manuscript. (And
The Hobbit, which was the first appearance of Tolkien's fictional universe, came out in 1937.)

Now you know ... and knowing is half the battle!

Sierra Disc

12-09-05, 06:40 PM

"I just saw King Kong, and have to say it's not as good as the 1976 original."

Who the hell is Polly Toynbee?

riley_dude

12-09-05, 06:43 PM

I can't wait for next weeks thread about Kong.

"Just went to see King Kong - But feel like I just left a Furry convention"
or rather felt like you just came from a Bear Party.

skiblet

12-09-05, 06:53 PM

"I just saw King Kong, and have to say it's not as good as the 1976 original."

I hope your joking ?

Sierra Disc

12-09-05, 07:10 PM

Sarcasm, eh? ;)

Hokeyboy

12-09-05, 08:09 PM

...C.S. Lewis is usually associated with Christianity. I believe at the time of writing the books, Lewis was not even Christian.
Not true. He was an atheist who I believe embraced religion after his experiences in World War I (I am recalling this from memory, so I may be wrong on this). Anyway, his whole purpose of the book was to celebrate his faith and explore the "True Mythology" (his words) in a fantasy setting.

Although, I could

Hokeyboy

12-09-05, 08:22 PM

I am not too up to date on my C.S. Lewis, but is Narnia supposed to be an aged form of Eden? I noticed it was populated by animals mostly, and it also talks about the ancient laws/early days as if they were during creation/genesis.
Narnia isn't Eden per se. Actually, in <i>The Magician's Nephew</i>, Lewis shows how Narnia came into being and uses Eden as allegory to present his tale. However, the Narnia of <i>The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe</i> is no longer Eden, but the fully-formed world.

Its actually a quite beautiful story, and my favorite of the series after TLTW&TW. Lewis was quite adroit at conjuring up imagery that stays with you long after you finish the book.

slavetotherave

12-09-05, 08:35 PM

Personally, I have no problems with Christian allegory in movies. I'm not a Christian by any stretch of the word, though. But I think that the problem (and this is my opinion, I'm not singling out anyone or pointing fingers, especially not at the original poster).. but the problem with a lot of atheists is they get so hung up when religion is present in things. But likewise, the problem with (SOME) Christians is they have a problem when people around them don't believe in what they believe in. I work with someone who is Christian, and it bothers her greatly when she finds out people aren't Christian. She won't even help people find books in the occult and spirituality section. Personally, I feel like being so intolerant of people that aren't of the same faith is a sign of the weakness in said person's beliefs. They feel much better about them when they have a major consensus in their favor. But that's just my opinion.

By the way, I agree with the Lord of the Rings envy comment, earlier. I was reminded of LOTR as soon as I saw the trailer. It's the cinematography and look of the film, not necessarily the story. You know how it is... once a movie is successful in Hollywood, the clones come right after. I just think people got offended by the word "envy," and took it with its negative connotation.

Brent L

12-09-05, 08:44 PM

I saw this thread, then went to Yahoo, and saw this:

http://www.yahoo.com/s/264561

DAC

12-09-05, 08:47 PM

Is it a kid movie?

paradicelost

12-09-05, 09:31 PM

I guess this is a little off topic but from what i've read about C.S. Lewis is that Tolkien is that what that brought him to Christianity. I haven't read the Narnia books but i've read Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity, both favorites of mine. I'm looking forward to seeing the film though.

Jackskeleton

12-09-05, 11:51 PM

or rather felt like you just came from a Bear Party.

wouldn't that be Brokeback Mountain?

Hi-ooooOOOOOOH!!! I'll be here all night, remember to tip the waitresses.

calhoun07

12-10-05, 12:01 AM

Grimfarrow

12-10-05, 12:13 AM

wouldn't that be Brokeback Mountain?

Hi-ooooOOOOOOH!!! I'll be here all night, remember to tip the waitresses.

That made no sense whatsoever.

GrimTangent

12-10-05, 12:50 AM

It is merely a well polished and attractive propaganda tool, that makes no secret at all about its intentions to impose the authors religious views upon the viewer.

I'm a young Christian in the Reformed tradition, and something stressed in this school of thought is that nothing comes value-free. Any human creation is going to have some display of the values of those who created it. Granted, one creation's message will have been consciously thought out by the creators (like this movie) while others will bear a message solely as a result of the philosophical baggage that the creators--like everyone else--carry. Plus, different movies are going to manifest the creators' values more or less obviously, but then perhaps we should be grateful that TLtWatW is so open about it, so that if you are hostile to its message, you don't have to watch it in its entirety before being offended. Personally, I prefer movies where the writers'/directors' philosophies are implicit, so I can have something to chew on once the movie is over.

Jackskeleton

12-10-05, 12:55 AM

That made no sense whatsoever.

then you don't know anything about Big Bears.

Numanoid

12-10-05, 01:19 AM

Not to mention in other stories as well. ET, for example, makes a very strong Christ figure out of ET, and teaches lessons of good over evil and courage and sacrifice and love. Yet nobody complains about that movie in the same way they do Narnia. I guess just knowing the author was a Christian going in upsets some people.I was going to mention E.T. also. There are a million other movies with Christ symbolism as well (Fearless, The Matrix, Cool Hand Luke, Superman, the list goes on and on). Who complains about those? I think you have it pegged - if some people know going in that the author was Christian then they are just looking for something to get offended by.

Cameron

12-10-05, 01:46 AM

The movie uses glaringly and overtly obvious paralells to christianity, so much that i wonder how many viewers will start to doubt the strength of C.S. Lewis' imagination and creativity (since the entire essence of the movie's moral delivery are a direct copycat of orthodox christianity).

I'm sure this will rock the foundations and everyone will stop reading the dozens of other books the man wrote...

I agree, that I think you had the movie pegged.

I'm glad that all of the overtones are there....i had worried they would cut them out to make it more P.C. Glad they left it alone.

Rockmjd23

12-10-05, 03:35 AM

I'm glad that all of the overtones are there....i had worried they would cut them out to make it more P.C. Glad they left it alone.
I agree. Just like I'm glad Mel Gibson didn't soften the Passion of the Christ to appease the ridiculous claims of anti-Semitism. :)

Filmmaker

12-10-05, 09:26 AM

Just a note - the original publication of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is 1950. The original publication date of the Fellowship of the Ring is 1954. LOTR envy, indeed.

THE HOBBIT, the prelude, setup and unofficial fourth (first) entry in THE LORD OF THE RINGS saga, was written in 1937, so if we're gonna go for accuracy, let's go for accuracy. Frankly, as a non-theist, I really hope this film stays in a realm of moral allegory and doesn't cross into full-fledged propaganda...I'll be going into the theater this weekend with no small measure of trepidation...

Ky-Fi

12-10-05, 09:30 AM

I'm a young Christian in the Reformed tradition, and something stressed in this school of thought is that nothing comes value-free. Any human creation is going to have some display of the values of those who created it. Granted, one creation's message will have been consciously thought out by the creators (like this movie) while others will bear a message solely as a result of the philosophical baggage that the creators--like everyone else--carry. Plus, different movies are going to manifest the creators' values more or less obviously, but then perhaps we should be grateful that TLtWatW is so open about it, so that if you are hostile to its message, you don't have to watch it in its entirety before being offended. Personally, I prefer movies where the writers'/directors' philosophies are implicit, so I can have something to chew on once the movie is over.

Very well said. Just because an artist isn't communicating heavy philosophical/theological/political themes doesn't mean they're not communicating their own value system, either consciously or subconsciously.

Rocketdog2000

12-10-05, 11:12 AM

I guess I'm a little confused. I haven't seen the movie, but I don't understand why atheists or "non-christians" have a problem with this movie having undertones of religion in it. How many movie out there have these same kinds of references, either implicit or explicit? Just a few movies that have either religious or heavy-handed agendas:

Life and Death of David Gale
Matrix (all three)
Mystic River
Million Dollar Baby
All Quiet on the Western Front

There's thousands of movies that all "have an agenda" and even if we don't agree with those, we can still enjoy the movie, right? I think atheists (and I'm not religious - just to much work... :) are so easily offended - generally, anyway, at anything that "forces" religion on them. But couldn't a right-wing, conservative be pissed off that All Quiet on the Western Front is an anti-war film, or a jewish person would be angry at Mel Gibson for making Passion, etc? Don't get me wrong, I'm a nihlist, so I don't get pissed at anything. heheh.

Ah well...

I think you nailed it in one. By the same token, I believe you could be an atheist, or non-believer for ANY religion, and still read any relgious story like the Bible, or see any religious based movie and just enjoy it for the story. Wether you believed in what was being told in the story, or not, shouldn't take away form your expierencing it.

For instance, I quite enjoy movies like The Ten Commandments and Ben Hur - yet I'm not a Christian, Catholic, or Jewish. I just think they are well told stories, and can enjoy them at that level. My personal religious beliefs don't play into them at all.

Filmmaker

12-10-05, 12:10 PM

I think you nailed it in one. By the same token, I believe you could be an atheist, or non-believer for ANY religion, and still read any relgious story like the Bible, or see any religious based movie and just enjoy it for the story. Wether you believed in what was being told in the story, or not, shouldn't take away form your expierencing it.

For instance, I quite enjoy movies like The Ten Commandments and Ben Hur - yet I'm not a Christian, Catholic, or Jewish. I just think they are well told stories, and can enjoy them at that level. My personal religious beliefs don't play into them at all.

See, I can't hang with that approach--it's all about moral allegory vs. moral propaganda. The films you mention aren't just allegories, they are actual Christian stories, based on Christian dogma; well made though they unarguably are, they exist to further a Christian agenda, and they are rather wanton about it, which disquiets me as a non-Christian viewer and prevents me from gaining any enjoyment out of them outside of an appreciation of their technical filmmaking accomplishments. I fervently hope NARNIA takes a more abstract approach. If the film is informed by a Christian sensibility, I can roll with that (many of the morals Christians purport to believe in are shared by many non-theists and alternate-theists), but if it outright proselytizes to me, I'll be one thoroughly irritated, insulted and disappointed moviegoer.

Numanoid

12-10-05, 04:23 PM

Why, are you worried that you'll walk out of the film as a born-again Christian, against your will? :lol:

calhoun07

12-10-05, 05:14 PM

Why, are you worried that you'll walk out of the film as a born-again Christian, against your will? :lol:

Yeah, that makes about as much sense as Christian thinking they would walk out of Harry Potter a satanist!

Filmmaker

12-10-05, 05:25 PM

Why, are you worried that you'll walk out of the film as a born-again Christian, against your will? :lol:

Not at all, I just don't relish the idea of having 2 hours of my life pissed away by worshippers of the great celestial Santa Claus...

William Fuld

12-10-05, 06:35 PM

See, I can't hang with that approach--it's all about moral allegory vs. moral propaganda. The films you mention aren't just allegories, they are actual Christian stories, based on Christian dogma; well made though they unarguably are, they exist to further a Christian agenda, and they are rather wanton about it, which disquiets me as a non-Christian viewer and prevents me from gaining any enjoyment out of them outside of an appreciation of their technical filmmaking accomplishments. I fervently hope NARNIA takes a more abstract approach. If the film is informed by a Christian sensibility, I can roll with that (many of the morals Christians purport to believe in are shared by many non-theists and alternate-theists), but if it outright proselytizes to me, I'll be one thoroughly irritated, insulted and disappointed moviegoer.

Does that apply to all religious art or just film?

Dorsalphin

12-10-05, 06:55 PM

or rather felt like you just came from a Bear Party.

wouldn't that be Brokeback Mountain?

Hi-ooooOOOOOOH!!! I'll be here all night, remember to tip the waitresses.

rotfl

Numanoid

12-10-05, 06:59 PM

Not at all, I just don't relish the idea of having 2 hours of my life pissed away by worshippers of the great celestial Santa Claus...-rolleyes-

Your loss, I guess. Do you react the same way to the great Japanese films that promote Zen concepts, or the fantastic Indian films which promote Hindu spirituality? Or is it the same old tired backlash against Christianity because it's the dominant religion of our culture?

Artman

12-10-05, 07:13 PM

but if it outright proselytizes to me, I'll be one thoroughly irritated, insulted and disappointed moviegoer.

Rest easy filmmaker - there is no mention of Jesus Christ or God. Go and enjoy.

Cygnet74

12-10-05, 07:34 PM

See, I can't hang with that approach--it's all about moral allegory vs. moral propaganda. The films you mention aren't just allegories, they are actual Christian stories, based on Christian dogma; well made though they unarguably are, they exist to further a Christian agenda, and they are rather wanton about it, which disquiets me as a non-Christian viewer and prevents me from gaining any enjoyment out of them outside of an appreciation of their technical filmmaking accomplishments. I fervently hope NARNIA takes a more abstract approach. If the film is informed by a Christian sensibility, I can roll with that (many of the morals Christians purport to believe in are shared by many non-theists and alternate-theists), but if it outright proselytizes to me, I'll be one thoroughly irritated, insulted and disappointed moviegoer.
for suggesting any artist should hold back or censor themself to ensure broader appeal, your right to the name "Filmmaker" should be revoked. ;)

Filmmaker

12-10-05, 07:35 PM

-rolleyes-

Your loss, I guess. Do you react the same way to the great Japanese films that promote Zen concepts, or the fantastic Indian films which promote Hindu spirituality? Or is it the same old tired backlash against Christianity because it's the dominant religion of our culture?

Zen concepts don't deal with fictional dieties and, frankly, I've never seen an East Indian film but, yeah, I'm sure they'd get on my nerves, too. My problem is less with the Christian God than with theism in general.

Filmmaker

12-10-05, 07:39 PM

for suggesting any artist should hold back or censor themself to ensure broader appeal, your right to the name "Filmmaker" should be revoked. ;)

I wouldn't dare suggest such a thing, just that I will not be part of that "broader market" and won't particularly appreciate being stuck in a theater for 2 hours listening to AC "sing to the choir" when I'm DC. I hate agenda films in general--hell, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but when Oliver Stone starts getting on his cinematic soapboxes, I just about hurl. Consider me an equal opportunity agenda hater when it comes to entertainment... :)

ChristopherS

12-10-05, 07:43 PM

Lateralus

12-10-05, 08:56 PM

Interesting article on Yahoo about CS Lewis and Belfast his hometown:

Lewis was born into a Protestant family. He became an atheist after the death of his mother but returned to Christianity later in life after meeting J.R.R. Tolkien, author of the Lord of the Rings trilogy and an enthusiastic Catholic, while teaching literature at Oxford and Cambridge.

Tolkien brought Lewis back to the faith and their relationship helped to create a spiritual bond between two traditionally conflicting religions, said Lewis biographer Derick Bingham.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051209/ennew_afp/britainnirelandfilmnarnia

Artman

12-10-05, 09:45 PM

There was just something on CNN about Disney trying to market this to "people who liked Passion of the Christ" and they went on to talk about how much money that made (cha-ching!). They also showed some seminar where some preacher guy was telling children what they should have learned from this movie while he waved a stuffed lion around.

I saw this and to me it looked like they were making a story out of nothing. Disney may have given promo materials to churches that wanted them...but I've not heard too much about it. I'm just glad I go to a church that doesn't promote or endorse films, etc..

dadaluholla

12-10-05, 11:37 PM

I rarely have ever went to church in my life, but if it involves anything close to talking beavers wearing armor I will be going tomorrow morning.

Iron_Giant

12-11-05, 12:13 AM

Thanks for all the reviews in this thread.

Everything has confirmed this is just the kind of movie I want to take my whole family to see and to enjoy.

I love to take my whole fam at the same time to a movie, but there are not that many movies that "fit the bill" for all four of us. I cannot remember the last movie we all went to.

Linn1

12-11-05, 12:25 AM

My problem is less with the Christian God than with theism in general.

Then DO NOT learn anything about Quantum physics. It will REALLY get on my nerves mi amigo! As for the books, loved the hell out of them, but didn't like how they ended. IF they make these like they should, I think it will bother some folks.

necros

12-11-05, 12:25 AM

I saw it last night and really enjoyed it. I took the girlfriend who wasn't really thrilled at all to see it but came out raving about how much she loved it. I was finally truly amazed by CGI and how lifelike all of the talking animals appeared and moved and everything. It was very well done.

The story though, to me, while it was good, it just seemed to move too fast. It's almost like the first half or at least 1/3 of the movie is them finding their way to the wardrobe and then the next thing ya know it's like 2 days later and the 16 year old kid is leading an army of fawns and centaurs that he didn't even know 15 minutes ago. There was no real backstory or character development for most of the narnia characters, like Aslan for instance, he's this big lion that the kids love even though they've only known him for what seemed like a day or 2 tops and had maybe a 5 minute conversation with. Then there was that big centaur leader guy who seemed like an important character, but he had maybe 2 lines, a few smiles and bows and that was pretty much it.

Maybe they'll explain it all in the 12 hour directors cut dvd that's gonna come out unannounced 3 weeks after the theatrical version is released.

Still though, it was a very enjoyable movie and it's worth your $10 ticket if anything just to see beavers dressed up as knights.

Numanoid

12-11-05, 12:46 AM

Consider me an equal opportunity agenda hater when it comes to entertainment... :)If you view movies simply as entertainment, then yeah, you should have your name revoked.

NitroJMS

12-11-05, 01:06 AM

I went to a Catholic grade school and this was one of main books we studied in fourth grade. Only after the book was finished and analyzed for its literary elements, did we discuss the religious implications of the book, it wasn't even a primary focus of discussion and we were a religous school. It's just simply a good book/story, you can never have heard of Christianity and still enjoy The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe as it is also classic fantasy, as well as have religous themes.

Rockmjd23

12-11-05, 01:20 AM

Not at all, I just don't relish the idea of having 2 hours of my life pissed away by worshippers of the great celestial Santa Claus...
Uhh yeah, that's what it's about... -screwy-

bballing

12-11-05, 01:26 AM

Actually, in this case it's not. Tolkien and Lewis were friends, and Tolkien began work on Lord of the Rings well over a decade before it was published. By 1950 Lewis had read/heard large chunks of the LOTR manuscript. (And
The Hobbit, which was the first appearance of Tolkien's fictional universe, came out in 1937.)

Now you know ... and knowing is half the battle!

Oh ya, Lewis wrote his first draft of Narnia when he was 6.

DodgingCars

12-11-05, 02:14 AM

Oh ya, Lewis wrote his first draft of Narnia when he was 6.

I think Tolkein first conceived of Middle Earth while in the womb.

calhoun07

12-11-05, 02:44 AM

Not at all, I just don't relish the idea of having 2 hours of my life pissed away by worshippers of the great celestial Santa Claus...

I had to do a double take to see if this was a Groucho post.

At least I hope you weren't serious.

darkside

12-11-05, 03:04 AM

Come on, its a well known fact that these stories have strong Christian overtones. I can't believe people are not aware of these books. They have been popular for decades. Sure the lion is a Christlike figure, but that doesn't take away from the story or make these movies some kind of Christian propaganda. I'm an athiest and I have encouraged my kid to read this whole series of books. I enjoyed them quite a bit when I was his age. Man, pick your battles people. Not everything Christian is an insult to non christians.

Legolas

12-11-05, 04:00 AM

Where's all the Christian-bashing for The Matrix?

Filmmaker

12-11-05, 09:10 AM

I had to do a double take to see if this was a Groucho post.

At least I hope you weren't serious.

I am serious...see, I don't believe in God...did you not get that?

Filmmaker

12-11-05, 09:11 AM

Uhh yeah, that's what it's about... -screwy-

I don't know what it's about (at least, I didn't until very recently)--that's why I've been asking questions here, bright boy.

Filmmaker

12-11-05, 09:13 AM

If you view movies simply as entertainment, then yeah, you should have your name revoked.

If it's a fiction film, as this is, then it's primary purpose is as entertainment--I'd make the same claim of any and all fiction works; that isn't to say they can't educate, too, but PRIMARILY, they are to entertain. And in regards to any education they might convey, but there's a gulf a mile wide between educating and proselytizing. Frankly, if it's Christian dogma being expounded, I wouldn't even think the word "educate" could be accurately applied...

Rockmjd23

12-11-05, 10:31 AM

I don't know what it's about (at least, I didn't until very recently)--that's why I've been asking questions here, bright boy.
"Based on the classic novel by CS Lewis. Four London children are sent to a professors country home in order for protection during World War II. There they find a magic wardrobe which leads to a mystical land called Narnia, which is being ruled by an evil witch. To defeat the Witch, they must join forces with Aslan, the lion God of Narnia, and the great battle between good and evil."

Nope, no signs of any evil Christian brainwashing :lol:

DodgingCars

12-11-05, 11:32 AM

At least Scott Holleran of BoxOfficeMojo agrees with the OP. :)

Literary Fantasy Adaptation is Christian Tract
by Scott Holleran

Disney's The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, based on the first in a series of children's books by C.S. Lewis, puts its religious ideas—faith, sacrifice, selflessness—to graphic images of death, supernaturalism and stark terror, making it inappropriate for young children.

This fanciful Christian propaganda opens with the bombing of London as a mother and her four children run for their lives. Dad's at war when the bombs start falling and middle child Edmund (Skandar Keynes) runs back to grab his father's photograph, prompting older brother Peter (William Moseley) to admonish him for being selfish. The self must be denied, Narnia warns, for the sake of others. Or else.

What an else. But first, we meet the kids when they are sent by their mother to live in the country with an old professor. He lives in a big house with acres of empty rooms and closets and nothing for kids to do. The plot is relatively simple for a time, as the family dynamic takes shape. The youngest child, Lucy (Georgie Henley), represents pure faith and there's a responsible older sister, Susan (Anna Popplewell), and Peter, who is in charge. Selfish Edmund is the demon seed in need of redemption.

When a game of hide and seek leads Lucy into the imposing wardrobe, she steps into Narnia, a fantasy world with fauns, centaurs and an evil white witch (Tilda Swinton, dripping with contempt for children like she eats them for breakfast). Up until now, Lucy is a nice kid, but, like the movie, she grows less benign as she personifies the self-abnegation theme.

The other children follow Lucy through the gateway to snowy Narnia—the prerequisite is faith—and the conflict takes shape, with Edmund willing to sell his family to the witch, Narnia's dictator who has outlawed humans. Director Andrew Adamson (Shrek) makes the most of Lewis' characters in visual terms, though he doesn't linger for longer than a few seconds. Who can blame him? With preachy beavers, a two-faced fox and wolves, who sound like they smoke two packs a day, it would all seem a little ridiculous if kept on too long.

In fact, it does, with Narnia looking fake, though Adamson keeps it relatively convincing by moving things along at a brisk pace. The story remains intact, such as it is, with Narnians prattling on about a prophecy and someone named Aslan, a lion king (voiced by Liam Neeson) who uses mystical powers only after most of Narnia has already dropped dead. Rock bottom is reached when Santa Claus drops in looking like something the reindeer dragged in and sounding more like Oprah than a jolly old elf.

Bad Edmund gets what he has coming (by the movie's morality), which means he is undeservedly forgiven in the next instant, this being a Christian picture. Like religion, this winter wonderland is arbitrary but, on its own terms, the fantasy falls apart.

Dependable Peter leads his family into harm's way because a couple of beavers told him it's his duty to help others, which makes it still harder to accept nebulous Narnia as worth the lives of four children. The faun who befriended Lucy wanted to turn her in, the centaur had a tough time taking a liking to Peter, who's been designated the future king, and all Aslan seems to do is negotiate with the enemy and sacrifice himself. The humans are not much better; Susan, the smart sister, abandons reason, Peter is hell-bent on risking the family for Narnia and, by now, Lucy is grating on the nerves. It seems poor Edmund, imprisoned by the witch, only wanted some candy.

The big battle, with mixed match-ups and acts of valor that make no sense, is a bust. Narnia's greatest asset—Swinton as the white witch—is undone by overproduced fight photography, engaging her sword against a child in slow motion, forced to waste her best efforts at wickedness in a few moments that make her look like she's Tina Turner from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome auditioning for Madonna's Vogue video.

None of it is pretty, even when it's supposed to be, let alone exalted. Despite Adamson's mitigating efforts, Narnia stands for death, destruction and renunciation of self in a poorly disguised Christian fairy tale.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/reviews/?id=1958&p=.htm

Giles

12-11-05, 11:35 AM

DodgingCars

12-11-05, 11:37 AM

He also hated King Kong.

Numanoid

12-11-05, 01:16 PM

If it's a fiction film, as this is, then it's primary purpose is as entertainment--I'd make the same claim of any and all fiction works; that isn't to say they can't educate, too, but PRIMARILY, they are to entertain.Man, I couldn't disagree with you more. Ever heard the term "art"?

Artman

12-11-05, 04:47 PM

How about we see the film in question first before we analyize it...just a suggestion. Sound good filmmaker?

Sierra Disc

12-11-05, 05:04 PM

OK, having seen it now, I have to admit I'm a bit befuddled. I liked it OK (see my blog below for a longer review, plug plug), but as a former churchgoer who's comfortably agnostic these last 15 years or so, I didn't get particuarly whacked over the head by it being a Christian propaganda piece. The "hero dies to save us then comes back" theme is even older than Christianity, and as others have noted, it's been in everything from "ET" to "The Matrix". I'm more offended by the marketing Disney's done to make it seem like "Passion of the Christ II." C.S. Lewis, contrary to popular belief, did not explicitly intend to make Aslan Jesus, and I'm just rather sickened by Disney going after the almighty buck in such a sleazy manner. "Narnia: It's like Disneyland, but eternal!" I feel like the evangelical crowd have co-opted Lewis's creation for their own ends (Narnia Bible study guides, etc.), rather than letting it stand on its own. Sure, they're out to make a buck and dig up some more converts, but I still find it distasteful to see a book I've loved for years in a non-religious fashion turned into another ingredient in the culture wars.

thematahara

12-11-05, 05:29 PM

Why does it matter if there are christian themes in the story?

Duder

12-11-05, 06:40 PM

Sierra Disc: Aslan may not = Jesus, but C.S. Lewis explicitly stated that he is an incarnation of God in another world just like Jesus is in ours. And while I haven't read all of the Narnia books yet, I've read that there is some dialogue from Aslan in which he says that he exists in our world, but by a different name. I think it's rather silly to complain about evangelicals "co-opting" Narnia with study guides, because, well, that's sort of what EVERYONE does when they study a piece of literature and try to draw meaning out of it. It's not a matter of Narnia having a lot of Christian themes and parallels OR standing on its own as an entertaining work of fiction; it does both. Just because you've loved the books in a non-religious fashion doesn't mean other people have to approach it in the same way as you.

Also, I'd like to know exactly how Disney's marketing it as "Passion of the Christ II." All the trailers I've seen for Narnia make it look like the fun escapist fantasy adventure it is, and don't highlight the religious undertones any more than the movie itself does. Unless you think that the fact that churches and such are endorsing it must mean that Disney paid them to do so?

DodgingCars

12-11-05, 07:00 PM

I'm more offended by the marketing Disney's done to make it seem like "Passion of the Christ II." C.S. Lewis, contrary to popular belief, did not explicitly intend to make Aslan Jesus

Don't know if it was his original intention, but he certainly saw Aslan as a Jesus figure:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1903338,00.html

GreenMonkey

12-11-05, 07:43 PM

I read the whole Narnia series years ago as a kid - unlike LOTR I never felt a need to revisit it.

I hope the movie turns out. I was worried about interviews with the directors saying they were emphasizing the Christian allegory that forms the basis of the stories.

I'm with Tolkien on his opinion of allegory. :D If the movie bashes me over the head with it I might get grouchy. You can do a good job with symbolism & allegory or a bad job.

calhoun07

12-11-05, 09:10 PM

I am serious...see, I don't believe in God...did you not get that?

I don't care. That's your personal choice. Narnia does not feature the worship of Jesus Christ, it's not a church service. Aslan is a type of Christ, but the movie can be enjoyed outside of that. And Aslan isn't even worshipped in this movie. He's venerated as a king, sure, but worshipped as a God??? I don't see it.

But even if you can't enjoy it, I am sure you hate several of the other movies people posted about here that also use Christ types. Or are you just pissed off that a CS Lewis novel got made into a movie?

Filmmaker

12-11-05, 09:28 PM

How about we see the film in question first before we analyize it...just a suggestion. Sound good filmmaker?

Well, now that I've seen it (as of 6:30 this afternoon), I'd have to say...not bad at all. Fortunately, there is no more Christian dogma on display here than can be found in THE MATRIX films (though, to be fair, the latter mixed its Christian themes with many other schools of thought and belief from throughout the world, so it felt more like a philosophical melting pot of a story than NARNIA by far); the most irritated and nauseous I ever got with NARNIA was the omnipresent references to "sons of Adam" and "daughters of Eve" nonsense--so what's the deal, Adam and Eve lived in Narnia, too, or Narnians just have heard about them in the land of humans? And if Aslan is Christ, then why do we have a Narnian reference to Christmas? Wouldn't it be Aslanmas? There was a smattering of obvious silliness such as this, but it was not sufficient to derail an otherwise fun and imaginative adventure (even if it does play like a youth primer for the much more complex and layered LORD OF THE RINGS). At this point, I agree that the most insidious element to this film is not present within the film at all, but its marketing--specifically, the "underground" marketing push aimed at churches and their congregations, though I can't fault Disney for that--Disney is a business and businesses will get their $$$ in whatever manner is necessary; if that's by convincing them that NARNIA is the next PASSION OF THE CHRIST, then so be it. Take note, Christian flocks--your money isn't going to charity or to spread the so-called Word of God; it's going to line the pockets of Hollywood greedmeisters; I hope you don't delude yourself into thinking you're playing into a higher cause with your attendance to this film. It's funny--I was so concerned I'd be alienated by this film, but now I think evangelicals may be the ones left cold by it; existing only as an allegorical piece, some theist audience members may be expecting something quite a bit more overt in therms of their chosen faith, and may walk away going "that was what all the hullaballoo was about?!" Be forewarned, Christian moviegoers--THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST II this is most certainly not--think HARRY POTTER* meets THE LORD OF THE RINGS with just a sprinkle of Sunday school mentality thrown in and that's about the long and the short of it. For me, it was good fun that thankfully only strayed into dogmatic areas ever so briefly. It'll easily be a DVD purchase for me when it's released as such.

* Is anyone (non-theist) else as staggered as my wife and I that Christians are flocking to see this in droves at the same time they denounce HARRY POTTER as the work of Satan?! We could find no meaningful separation in the ethos of either, and don't tell me it's because the kids don't use magic in NARNIA--though such usage was to an admittedly far less degree, that healing potion Lucy used isn't something you can pick up down at the local Walgreens...oh, and about that--anyone else think it was goofy that the healing potion saved the troubled brother from dying from a stab would, but didn't even touch the cuts peppering his face?? There's a take-you-out-of-the-movie moment, but I digress...

Filmmaker

12-11-05, 09:32 PM

I don't care. That's your personal choice. Narnia does not feature the worship of Jesus Christ, it's not a church service. Aslan is a type of Christ, but the movie can be enjoyed outside of that. And Aslan isn't even worshipped in this movie. He's venerated as a king, sure, but worshipped as a God??? I don't see it.

But even if you can't enjoy it, I am sure you hate several of the other movies people posted about here that also use Christ types. Or are you just pissed off that a CS Lewis novel got made into a movie?

Once and for all, since you and others of your faith have misread my posts, I have not been denouncing NARNIA as definite Christian dogma; until I saw it a few hours ago, I was simply expressing my fears that it would be, so those who had already seen it could give their opinions as to whether my fears were justified or not, so I'd know what to expect, or whether to even buy a ticket for it. Get a frickin' grip, holy rollers, please!

thematahara

12-11-05, 10:23 PM

I've never understood why people get in such a tizzy over films that deal with religion, or have religous undertones.

When movies like Last Temptation of Christ or Dogma are released, you see christians calling for boycotts or even resorting to death threats to the filmmakers

Then when movies like Passion of the Christ or Narnia (cant really believe i'm evern comparing these two) are released we see atheists and the like screaming about propganda, blah blah blah.

Why?

These are just films, no one is holding a gun to your head to watch them. If you dont agree with them, dont watch them.

I guess what I dont understand is how people can be threatened by film when it comes to their personal beliefs. If your beliefs are so weak that you find a film offering a different viewpoint threatening than you have bigger problems to deal with.

movielib

12-11-05, 10:57 PM

Narnia does not feature the worship of Jesus Christ, it's not a church service. Aslan is a type of Christ, but the movie can be enjoyed outside of that. And Aslan isn't even worshipped in this movie. He's venerated as a king, sure, but worshipped as a God??? I don't see it.
I totally agree. That's a good way to put it: that he is a Christ type rather than Christ. Geez, there've only been about a million of those, many of them mythical and fictional, both predating and postdating the supposed "real" Jesus (whom I don't even believe was a real person).

So, although I'm an atheist, I liked the Narnia books which I read decades ago (as well as liking Lewis's Space Trilogy) in spite of their being Christian allegories. Lewis was a fine writer who, while obviously writing Christian allegory, never beat you over the head with it, at least in his fiction.

Now the film: I liked it. It's no Lord of the Rings or even Harry Potter but it is a good solid movie. The film does justice to the book and I think it's good it didn't water down Lewis's intended message because to do so would have been a disservice to him. The look, the cinematography, the effects, the score were all excellent. The children did a reasonably good job. Tilda Swinton was very well cast with her aloof and cold, icy demeanor and she was easily the best thing about the film. There were a few slow periods where I thought it should have been moved along a little more briskly. It would like to have seen more Jim Broadbent just because he's such a marvelous actor but because his part was small out of necessity I think he was kind of wasted.

***/****.

Rockmjd23

12-11-05, 10:59 PM

chanster

12-11-05, 11:12 PM

I believe the Christian Right makes up controversies in order to promote their agenda. They make up all these idiotic controversies "Happy Holiday v. Merry Christmas" so people can get worked up and think that "Others" are trying to force non-religion on them. I think its hillarious when the Catholic League calls a boycott on Wal Mart because when you searched for christmas, the holiday section of Wal Mart's site went up.

As for Narnia, wow, what a bunch of ridicoulsness. I loved Narnia as a kid and came from a mixed religion household. When I first read the series, I didn't even equate Aslan as Christ, but when I read them again a few years later, it was definitely there. The last books in the series get pretty hard core religious - I believe the Last Battle is pretty much an end of the world apocalypse type story. I haven't seen the movie, but of course, Disney would attempt to market it.

If people want to see a heavily drenched religious story, I'm sure they can find it in Narnia. HOwever, at least from my memories of the books, they can be enjoyed without having to bring your Bible.

The real crime is the decision by the publishers to tell kids to read the books out of order...I believe you start with the Magician's Nephew. What a joke! Who is the editor - George Lucas?

Does this mean the Lion, Witch and Wardrobe is assuming its rightful position as the start of the series again?>

Johnny Boy

12-11-05, 11:13 PM

Then when movies like Passion of the Christ or Narnia (cant really believe i'm evern comparing these two) are released we see atheists and the like screaming about propganda, blah blah blah.

I may be a rare example, but I don't have any religion and I don't worship any god, but I absolutely loved The Passion of the Christ. I don't care if it's propaganda or not. I'm not a Christian and I think it's a stunning movie. I own it and I've watched it about 12 times. It's amazing entertainment! Haven't seen Narnia yet, but I read it when I was a kid. Not that interested in it. I'll probably wait till it comes on TnT to watch it.

calhoun07

12-12-05, 12:56 AM

Once and for all, since you and others of your faith have misread my posts, I have not been denouncing NARNIA as definite Christian dogma; until I saw it a few hours ago, I was simply expressing my fears that it would be, so those who had already seen it could give their opinions as to whether my fears were justified or not, so I'd know what to expect, or whether to even buy a ticket for it. Get a frickin' grip, holy rollers, please!

I never said I went to church. Nor did I see evidence to suggest anybody else responding to your posts were "holy rollers."

Is anyone (non-theist) else as staggered as my wife and I that Christians are flocking to see this in droves at the same time they denounce HARRY POTTER as the work of Satan?!

I honestly don't think that ALL Christians are denouncing Harry Potter. Please, don't lump all groups into one category based on a few comments. It would be like assuming all Muslim Arabs were terrorists because of a few extremist groups, or that all Christians think we should bomb abortion clinics because of a few misguided people. Not that denouncing Harry Potter is even near the same level as terrorists attacks,but the point still stands...because of a few squeaky wheels making a noise, the entire car isn't bad.

calhoun07

12-12-05, 01:02 AM

Iron_Giant

12-12-05, 01:31 AM

Iron_Giant

12-12-05, 01:39 AM

Which is why, quite honestly, I think the Christian Right/"Born Again" Christians in this country are not far removed from the Pharisees of Jesus' day. If you study the Pharisees, they did a lot of the same things the Christian Right of today does. They loved to make controversies to promote their agenda, and were quite publicly vocal about their "faith." And all of that, Jesus denounced in His ministry.
I think everyone can use "Controversies" to prove their points: Republicans, Democrates, Green Party, Christians, Muslims, Jews, People who say they do not believe in God and many others.

Even you are using these "Controversies" to prove your point about how the "Christian Right" are like the Pharisees.

So, lets not just put this example onto "Christians", everyone does it, it is called human nature - something I hope we all have in common.

Rockmjd23

12-12-05, 01:49 AM

I honestly don't think that ALL Christians are denouncing Harry Potter.
The only 'Christians' I've seen that denounce Harry Potter are the extreme evangelicals. As a Catholic, I have little in common with them to begin with.

Cameron

12-12-05, 03:00 AM

Please, don't lump all groups into one category based on a few comments. It would be like assuming all Muslim Arabs were terrorists because of a few extremist groups, or that all Christians think we should bomb abortion clinics because of a few misguided people.

Or that all black kids will ruin a steak dinner. ;)

Duder

12-12-05, 04:23 AM

I honestly don't think that ALL Christians are denouncing Harry Potter. Please, don't lump all groups into one category based on a few comments.
Indeed. I'm a Christian, and I'm a bigger fan of Harry Potter than I am of Narnia.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 09:11 AM

I never said I went to church.

I don't recall making any such accusation.

Nor did I see evidence to suggest anybody else responding to your posts were "holy rollers."

Then perhaps if any Christmas money comes your way, you should blow it at Lens Crafters.

I honestly don't think that ALL Christians are denouncing Harry Potter. Please, don't lump all groups into one category based on a few comments. It would be like assuming all Muslim Arabs were terrorists because of a few extremist groups, or that all Christians think we should bomb abortion clinics because of a few misguided people. Not that denouncing Harry Potter is even near the same level as terrorists attacks,but the point still stands...because of a few squeaky wheels making a noise, the entire car isn't bad.

Fair enough, I apologize for my lack of extreme clarification; please change the question to apply to a decent-sized (far from "a few squeaky wheels") and rather demonstrative subsection of the Christian faith and go from there...

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 09:15 AM

These are just films, no one is holding a gun to your head to watch them. If you dont agree with them, dont watch them.

The problem with a film like Narnia, however, is that it's very unclear to an audience unfamiliar with the saga as to the degree of Christian dogma present in the film before actually investing in a showing of it. Movies like LAST TEMPTATION and, to a lesser degree, DOGMA have pretty self-evident agendas before one even buys a ticket, but with NARNIA, especially considering the inaccurately skewed media slant towards it being the rightful heir to PASSION OF THE CHRIST, you just don't know what you're going to get until your ass is in the theater seat.

modfather

12-12-05, 01:19 PM

I am serious...see, I don't believe in God...did you not get that?

But why get pissed off? I don't understand why Atheists are generally so ANGRY when God or any slight reference of "God" is in something like a movie or a book or in his likeness in a tortilla shell.

As I mentioned, I'm really not religious at all (haven't been to church in 10 years). But I don't understand being ANGRY about this movie or "In God We Trust" being printed on American money. How can any good story/movie be a waste of time? Even if something "offends" you?

You're no different than the nut at my work who thinks that the Harry Potter movies/books are evil and won't allow his children to see/read them.

Linn1

12-12-05, 01:37 PM

the most irritated and nauseous I ever got with NARNIA was the omnipresent references to "sons of Adam" and "daughters of Eve" nonsense--so what's the deal, Adam and Eve lived in Narnia, too, or Narnians just have heard about them in the land of humans?

Sons of Adam is (was) a common reference for man, as was daughters of Eve for women years ago. You'd even see it in science fiction novels from the '50s. With the PC world we live in, the terms have largely disappeared. Since the children came from earth to Narnia, they were considered sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. It's much like Jews refer to themselves as children of Abraham.

I believe the Christian Right makes up controversies in order to promote their agenda. They make up all these idiotic controversies "Happy Holiday v. Merry Christmas" so people can get worked up and think that "Others" are trying to force non-religion on them.

I thought the same thing until my towns Christmas tree lighting ceremony changed to a "Holiday tree celebration" this year after something like 30 years. When I asked the organizers what holiday the tree was for, I got blank stares, but at least one of them bust out laughing. This PC crap is a bunch of bull. I don't give a damn what you're beliefs are and deal with Kwanza, Hanukkah, and other holiday celebrations by other groups all the time. I have no problem with the local Jewish temple sitting a manorah in their window for all the world to see, but someone has a problem with a nativity scene on a person's front yard? I've got no problem with everyone doing different things. And what's the deal with Christmas trees? I mean, it's a tree that has nothing to do wih the birth of Christ and the holiday itself is a pagan one co-opted by Christians in the first place. Why should my life and the traditions of my town or elsewhere change because of what a few people think? It's sure as crap not a "holiday tree." The bitch has been a Christmas tree for centuries.

modfather

12-12-05, 01:40 PM

The problem with a film like Narnia, however, is that it's very unclear to an audience unfamiliar with the saga as to the degree of Christian dogma present in the film before actually investing in a showing of it. Movies like LAST TEMPTATION and, to a lesser degree, DOGMA have pretty self-evident agendas before one even buys a ticket, but with NARNIA, especially considering the inaccurately skewed media slant towards it being the rightful heir to PASSION OF THE CHRIST, you just don't know what you're going to get until your ass is in the theater seat.

So you want some kind of additional rating system that will tell you how much Christian Religion is inserted into the script?

New Rating System:

AD = Atheists Delight - God is murdered on-screen!
AF = Atheists Friendly - Although God isn't murdered on-screen, several characters mockingly discuss how riduculous Christians are for believing in fairy tales!
S = Suspicious. No references to God, but some of the actors might be Christians or Jews.
TYPBH = Tie Your Ponytails Back, Hippies! This film includes the word "Goddamn". Be prepared to get pissed off that there could actually be a "God" to "Damn" something. Ridculous, childish, Santa Claus believing Christians may be sitting in the theater!
CMMWTP = Christianity Makes Me Want To Puke! How anyone can believe in "God" is sickening an an insult!

chanster

12-12-05, 02:00 PM

I thought the same thing until my towns Christmas tree lighting ceremony changed to a "Holiday tree celebration" this year after something like 30 years. When I asked the organizers what holiday the tree was for, I got blank stares, but at least one of them bust out laughing. This PC crap is a bunch of bull. I don't give a damn what you're beliefs are and deal with Kwanza, Hanukkah, and other holiday celebrations by other groups all the time. I have no problem with the local Jewish temple sitting a manorah in their window for all the world to see, but someone has a problem with a nativity scene on a person's front yard?

Actually, you are comparing apples with oranges here. A menorah in a temple window is the same as having a nativiity scene on private property, which is of course people do all the time. There is a substantive difference between that and a "town's" activities, which is presumably a publicly sponsored event.

thematahara

12-12-05, 02:37 PM

The problem with a film like Narnia, however, is that it's very unclear to an audience unfamiliar with the saga as to the degree of Christian dogma present in the film before actually investing in a showing of it. Movies like LAST TEMPTATION and, to a lesser degree, DOGMA have pretty self-evident agendas before one even buys a ticket, but with NARNIA, especially considering the inaccurately skewed media slant towards it being the rightful heir to PASSION OF THE CHRIST, you just don't know what you're going to get until your ass is in the theater seat.

I understand it isnt as obvious, as some movies, but my whole point is that even if it does have christian undertones, should it really matter that much? I guess I just dont understand what is so threatening about a story which might have similarities to christian themes.

I have yet to ever hear of anyone going to the movies and walking out with a new religion. If a talking lion converts someone into believing in Jesus, than well.....

thematahara

12-12-05, 02:39 PM

So you want some kind of additional rating system that will tell you how much Christian Religion is inserted into the script?

New Rating System:

AD = Atheists Delight - God is murdered on-screen!
AF = Atheists Friendly - Although God isn't murdered on-screen, several characters mockingly discuss how riduculous Christians are for believing in fairy tales!
S = Suspicious. No references to God, but some of the actors might be Christians or Jews.
TYPBH = Tie Your Ponytails Back, Hippies! This film includes the word "Goddamn". Be prepared to get pissed off that there could actually be a "God" to "Damn" something. Ridculous, childish, Santa Claus believing Christians may be sitting in the theater!
CMMWTP = Christianity Makes Me Want To Puke! How anyone can believe in "God" is sickening an an insult!

Now that is funny.

GuessWho

12-12-05, 02:53 PM

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 02:54 PM

But why get pissed off? I don't understand why Atheists are generally so ANGRY when God or any slight reference of "God" is in something like a movie or a book or in his likeness in a tortilla shell.

We're 10,000 miles away from "slight references"--we're talking about a work that is predicated on the Christian faith and builds its own fictional tale out of a near reinvention of The Bible; let's be authentic about the concern on the table if we're going to make any headway.

As I mentioned, I'm really not religious at all (haven't been to church in 10 years). But I don't understand being ANGRY about this movie or "In God We Trust" being printed on American money. How can any good story/movie be a waste of time? Even if something "offends" you?

So I should relish being offended? Being proselytized about something the proselytizer considers fact and I consider it fiction? I should pay my own hard earned money for this "treat"?!

You're no different than the nut at my work who thinks that the Harry Potter movies/books are evil and won't allow his children to see/read them.

Not at all--if NARNIA had lived up to my worst fears, I would have passed on it because it would be an insult to my convictions, but I would never denounce it as evil, just wrong-headed and fictional in an unintended sense; I would never organize mass gatherings where Narnia merchandise was burnt in a bonfire, so as to cleanse the world of any perceived dangerous potential.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 02:55 PM

GuessWho

12-12-05, 02:56 PM

So, if a movie has God... and you don't believe in God, you can't enjoy it?

That's fucked up.

I don't believe in tauntauns or the wampa, but I love The Empire Strikes Back.

atari2600

12-12-05, 02:57 PM

This movie reaks of LOTR envy.

my first thought as well.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 02:57 PM

I understand it isnt as obvious, as some movies, but my whole point is that even if it does have christian undertones, should it really matter that much? I guess I just dont understand what is so threatening about a story which might have similarities to christian themes.

I have yet to ever hear of anyone going to the movies and walking out with a new religion. If a talking lion converts someone into believing in Jesus, than well.....

I'm not fearful that NARNIA or its ilk will convert me, just waste my time proselytizing about a religion that amounts to a hill of horseshit to me--would you argue that I should be gung ho about attending a KKK meeting? Why shouldn't I? Aren't I secure enough in my beliefs to withstand their dogma? Well of course I am, but why in hell would I pay $6-$8 for such an experience?!

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 02:59 PM

How are people "imposing" their religion on you? You weren't forced to go see the movie. It doesn't matter if your issue is religion or not, an issue is an issue... and all movies express the creators' views on things.

Oh no, Chasing Amy imposed Kevin Smith's opinion of homosexuality upon me!

Oh no, Saving Private Ryan imposed Spielberg's feeling that war sucks upon me!

Oh no, The Muppet Movie imposed Jim Henson's idea of what a talking frog would look like upon me!

How dare they? ;)

I can't fucking CONCEINVE of why this is so hard for some of you to process--all I've been inquiring about from the get-go is DOES NARNIA PROSELYTIZE OUTRIGHT OR NOT, so that I could decide if I wanted to spend my $ on it. That's it, that's all--I've never been on a crusade against Christian filmmaking, I just don't want to a) fund it and b) have my time wasted by it. Is this rocket science?

thematahara

12-12-05, 03:09 PM

I think why everyone is questioning you so much is that you say God doesnt exist, then why all the fuss? If god doesnt exist and is make believe, than why is anything that pertains to him so threatening?

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 03:17 PM

Okay, final breakdown--my concern is with films that push a Christian agenda on the audience. That's the long and the short of it. If God has mention or even direct play in the film, I can roll with that (check my DVD list--I own BRUCE ALMIGHTY); I simply do not want the film to have, as any specific goal, primary or otherwise, to be an agenda piece designed to proselytize Christianity as fact. When the film crosses the line from entertaining to preaching, that's when I draw the line. Curse me as a heathen if you each must, but please tell me you're all bright enough to understand this simple qualifier.

Save Ferris

12-12-05, 03:22 PM

The movie never mentions Jesus. The kids are called "sons of adam" and "daughters of eve" to identify them as 'human'. Other than that its a straight out fairy tale adventure with themes of sacrifice and good vs. evil

Im pretty sure the movie never mentions God either.

I saw the movie twice last weekend so Ill think harder here.

Christian agenda breakdown:
'go to church' -- not in movie
'Jesus is Lord' -- not in movie
'be good to others' -- good characters have this quality in movie
'betrayal is bad' -- shown as bad in movie
'read the Bible' -- not in movie
'Jesus died for everyones sins' -- not in movie

Like whats already been said. Lewis didnt try to write a fairy tale that REPRESENTED everything in the Bible. The Chronicles of Narnia is a mythology that has similar themes but it's its own thing entirely. People would go crazy trying to tie in direct comparisons between everything in Narnia to Christianity. In fact theres LOTS of greek and roman mythology (bacchus and silenus for example) in Narnia.

Michael Corvin

12-12-05, 03:28 PM

The problem with a film like Narnia, however, is that it's very unclear to an audience unfamiliar with the saga as to the degree of Christian dogma present in the film before actually investing in a showing of it.

I call bullshit. Read this again:

Come on, its a well known fact that these stories have strong Christian overtones. I can't believe people are not aware of these books. They have been popular for decades. Sure the lion is a Christlike figure, but that doesn't take away from the story or make these movies some kind of Christian propaganda.

70 posts to point this out. The novel has been out for half a century. The christian allegory has been there the ENTIRE time. This is not news. It isn't something they introduced in the films.

Quite frankly I find it refreshing that they have maintained the integrity of the novel when 99% book-to-movie translations end up butchered leaving nothining but a shell of the original source intact.

Ignorance of the source material is no excuse claim the producers are forcing a propaganda-merchandising religion on you.

I've never been on a crusade against Christian filmmaking, I just don't want to a) fund it and b) have my time wasted by it. Is this rocket science?

rotfl Apparently it is. Fund it? Do you actually think Disney is kicking some profit to Christian groups? That's pretty funny.

LorenzoL

12-12-05, 03:31 PM

I don't believe in tauntauns or the wampa, but I love The Empire Strikes Back.

:lol:

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 03:36 PM

70 posts to point this out. The novel has been out for half a century. The christian allegory has been there the ENTIRE time. This is not news. It isn't something they introduced in the films.

Quite frankly I find it refreshing that they have maintained the integrity of the novel when 99% book-to-movie translations end up butchered leaving nothining but a shell of the original source intact.

Ignorance of the source material is no excuse claim the producers are forcing a propaganda-merchandising religion on you.

Your reading comprehension skills are in need of substantial improvement--the stories may have been out forever but I'm telling you the pun partially intended) God's truth when I say I had no idea what they were about outside of the trailer footage. My "ignorance of the source material" was NEVER used to argue that the producers were forcing a propaganda-merchandising religion on me; my "ignorance of the source material" was cited as my request for feedback as to whether the film was a propaganda piece--in other words, since simplicity in communication seems to be the necessity, I have been ASKING IF the film was a Christian agenda piece, NOT making the claim that it was. Pay attention.

rotfl Apparently it is. Fund it? Do you actually think Disney is kicking some profit to Christian groups? That's pretty funny.

Not at all, as I previously mentioned, oh ye of little attention to detail. But if I help fund, even with my measly $6-$8, a Christian agenda film, then I convey to the studios a message of "Well done guys! This is exactly the type of entertainment you should be making more of!", which is most certainly not a message I want to be perceived as sending to the "powers that be" in Hollywood.

Save Ferris

12-12-05, 03:41 PM

And I thought only religious nuts were this sensitive.

heres the info you've been asking about but keep arguing if it makes you feel better.

The movie never mentions Jesus. The kids are called "sons of adam" and "daughters of eve" to identify them as 'human'. Other than that its a straight out fairy tale adventure with themes of sacrifice and good vs. evil

Im pretty sure the movie never mentions God either.

I saw the movie twice last weekend so Ill think harder here.

Christian agenda breakdown:
'go to church' -- not in movie
'Jesus is Lord' -- not in movie
'be good to others' -- good characters have this quality in movie
'betrayal is bad' -- shown as bad in movie
'read the Bible' -- not in movie
'Jesus died for everyones sins' -- not in movie

Like whats already been said. Lewis didnt try to write a fairy tale that REPRESENTED everything in the Bible. The Chronicles of Narnia is a mythology that has similar themes but it's its own thing entirely. People would go crazy trying to tie in direct comparisons between everything in Narnia to Christianity. In fact theres LOTS of greek and roman mythology (bacchus and silenus for example) in Narnia.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 03:44 PM

Yeah, thanks Ferris--I need that info very badly now 24 hours after I saw the freakin' film! Do you guys cover your eyes, point to one post per page and then read only that single post and base all of your feedback thusly???

Save Ferris

12-12-05, 03:47 PM

oops sorry bout that. I went to the end of this thread and saw you still asking.

thematahara

12-12-05, 03:52 PM

Just curious as what films you consider christian agenda pieces, or propoganda.

dadaluholla

12-12-05, 03:54 PM

This movie has talking beavers, if that helps you any.
:)

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 03:58 PM

Just curious as what films you consider christian agenda pieces, or propoganda.

In recent history, the only "offenders" that come to mind are, obviously, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST and that straight-to-video LEFT BEHIND nonsense. Hollywood was loathe to push Cristian dogma until THE PASSION's success, so this is less a trend I've had to deal with up until now and more one that (and the media supports this theory) will become more prevalent in the months ahead.

dadaluholla

12-12-05, 04:01 PM

I didn't notice any religious overtones in this movie.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 04:01 PM

This movie has talking beavers, if that helps you any.
:)

Yeah, they looked rather fake, as did the woves and fox (wonder how they got Aslan to look so perfect, but these animals still had that cartoony look I've come to expect from CGI?), but they were funny and endearing, and that's all that matters in the end.

dadaluholla

12-12-05, 04:07 PM

The lion did look very nice.

Michael Corvin

12-12-05, 04:11 PM

Did you not just post this:

The problem with a film like Narnia, however, is that it's very unclear to an audience unfamiliar with the saga as to the degree of Christian dogma present in the film before actually investing in a showing of it. Movies like LAST TEMPTATION and, to a lesser degree, DOGMA have pretty self-evident agendas before one even buys a ticket, but with NARNIA, especially considering the inaccurately skewed media slant towards it being the rightful heir to PASSION OF THE CHRIST, you just don't know what you're going to get until your ass is in the theater seat.

Accurate comparison or not, the media comparing the film to TPOTChrist should raise red flags in your mind if you are that anti-religion. I just don't get the process where you see that comparison and think, "Damn! I need to see this movie!"

All I was saying ist that no one in general (not specifically you) should be shocked going into this movie. Like mentioned above a simple amazon or google search & this whole thread wouldn't even exist. This whole debate reminds me of parents that bitch about a movie that they let their kids see without doing any research first. Classic.

Your reading comprehension skills are in need of substantial improvement--

When it doubt about getting your point across please attack forum members. :up: Solid.

Not at all, as I previously mentioned, oh ye of little attention to detail.

Again with the snide remarks?

But if I help fund, even with my measly $6-$8, a Christian agenda film, then I convey to the studios a message of "Well done guys! This is exactly the type of entertainment you should be making more of!", which is most certainly not a message I want to be perceived as sending to the "powers that be" in Hollywood.

Fun, fantasy-adventure type film about four kids who magically enter another world via a closet and meet talking animals and fantasy creatures-entertainment?

Incidentally, the thread title is dubious at best, setting the thread off to a negative tone to begin with.

Save Ferris

12-12-05, 04:14 PM

The fox looked the least real. Perhaps because they used real wolves as much as possible.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 04:28 PM

Accurate comparison or not, the media comparing the film to TPOTChrist should raise red flags in your mind if you are that anti-religion. I just don't get the process where you see that comparison and think, "Damn! I need to see this movie!"

The trailer made me say "Damn! I need to see this movie!". The (rather unwarranted, now that I've seen it) media controversy afterwards is what made me question whether I was going to be suckered into a Christian agenda piece or a fun fantasy adventure with the occasional moments of Christian allegory. That's why I brought my concerns and confusion here.

All I was saying ist that no one in general (not specifically you) should be shocked going into this movie. Like mentioned above a simple amazon or google search & this whole thread wouldn't even exist. This whole debate reminds me of parents that bitch about a movie that they let their kids see without doing any research first. Classic.

So the fact that I asked my question here, rather than via Google, means I failed to do any research?! Where the fuck do you get off? I was asking from people in the know before I laid down my own money--that's research, pal.

When it doubt about getting your point across please attack forum members. :up: Solid.

Again with the snide remarks?

My snide remarks were also, more importantly, accurate--your posts have either distorted my meanings or missed them altogether, as I was able to concisely address. Sorry to bloody your nose, but if you actually start paying attention to things you're speaking out against, we can minimize the friction.

Fun, fantasy-adventure type film about four kids who magically enter another world via a closet and meet talking animals and fantasy creatures-entertainment?

That quote pertained to Christian agenda films in general, as well as what I at first feared NARNIA would be but, after speaking with many of you here and then viewing it for myself, found it not to be. Again, an issue of your not paying attention to my posts sufficiently; you would do well to spend a little less time thinking of what you're going to say next and a little more time actually listening to what I'm saying.

Michael Corvin

12-12-05, 05:10 PM

So the fact that I asked my question here, rather than via Google, means I failed to do any research?! Where the fuck do you get off? I was asking from people in the know before I laid down my own money--that's research, pal.

What are you so pissed about? You have made your stance, insulted many members throughout this thread in the process. Great research, makes for a lively thread at any rate. Loved the bit about the Taun-Tauns.

My sole point, which was a general one which wasn't even directed at you, the novel has been out for a half a century for you to research and you waited until release day for info. The book is short and could have been read in a couple sittings would have answered your questions. Ignoring the book angle, why not wait a few days to a week for some more solid info before rushing out to see a film you are unsure about?

What exactly does this sentence mean?
The (rather unwarranted, now that I've seen it) media controversy afterwards is what made me question whether I was going to be suckered into a Christian agenda piece or a fun fantasy adventure with the occasional moments of Christian allegory. That's why I brought my concerns and confusion here.

The "afterwards" is confusing me. After seeing the trailer or did you see the media comparison to TPOC after seeing the film? If it was before, my argument still stands at "with the comparison to such a religious film, why rush out to see it knowing your beliefs." It just doesn't make sense. The way it is typed it reads as "Before" you saw it. Not as clear and concise as you think it is.

Filmmaker

12-12-05, 05:15 PM

What are you so pissed about? You have made your stance, insulted many members throughout this thread in the process. Great research, makes for a lively thread at any rate. Loved the bit about the Taun-Tauns.

My sole point, which was a general one which wasn't even directed at you, the novel has been out for a half a century for you to research and you waited until release day for info. The book is short and could have been read in a couple sittings would have answered your questions. Ignoring the book angle, why not wait a few days to a week for some more solid info before rushing out to see a film you are unsure about?

And my point is, why wait a few days when I can ask people who've seen it here now? You're not making any sense, and your posts sound like they amount to "You are an idiot asking DVDTalkers for any insights on this film". Oh, and I so "pissed" because you're eating up my day with questions stemming from your lack of attention.

What exactly does this sentence mean? The "afterwards" is confusing me. After seeing the trailer or did you see the media comparison to TPOC after seeing the film? If it was before, my argument still stands at "with the comparison to such a religious film, why rush out to see it knowing your beliefs." It just doesn't make sense. The way it is typed it reads as "Before" you saw it. Not as clear and concise as you think it is.

Wow...let me guess--you were a math person in school. It meant FIRST, I saw the trailer and it looked like my cup of tea; then SECONDLY, and SHORTLY THEREAFTER, the media controversy which has been painting this filmas PASSION OF THE CHRIST II began to make me question whether it was going to be my cup of tea after all. THIRDLY and LASTLY, I came here to see if others who had seen it could tell me if it was an agenda piece or not. Are we mercifully clear on this now?

Linn1

12-12-05, 08:22 PM

Actually, you are comparing apples with oranges here. A menorah in a temple window is the same as having a nativiity scene on private property, which is of course people do all the time.

I left out my point in that bit. A local man sued a family that he lived on the same street with who had a nativity scene in their front yard. He said the sight of it was encroaching on his rights to practice or not practice religion. No matter if he would have won or not, the family couldn't afford to fight the guy in court so they took the scene down. So why is it fine to do this, yet if I was to do the same thing to a (fill in your religion here) temple, there's huge public outrage?

There is a substantive difference between that and a "town's" activities, which is presumably a publicly sponsored event.

I'm sorry, but in my world, it's not ok to decide you don't like a town's traditions which have been going on for generations and ruin them. There's little difference with some Christians trying to get rid of Holloween, I don't agree with that as well. If you don't care for a person's religion or practices, there's nothing forcing you to participate. And a Christmas tree has about as much to do with Christian dogma as the hay in a nativity scene.

chanster

12-13-05, 12:21 AM

I'm sorry, but in my world, it's not ok to decide you don't like a town's traditions which have been going on for generations and ruin them. There's little difference with some Christians trying to get rid of Holloween, I don't agree with that as well. If you don't care for a person's religion or practices, there's nothing forcing you to participate. And a Christmas tree has about as much to do with Christian dogma as the hay in a nativity scene.

Except the counter argument is that you are being forced to participate because you give tax money to the government and they shouldn't be using your money on something that implicitly endorses one religion or another. Not saying that I agree with it, but you can make a valid point there.

So why is it fine to do this, yet if I was to do the same thing to a (fill in your religion here) temple, there's huge public outrage?

Umm, I really don't know the specifics of this case, if you could post a link that would be appreciated. But it would be thrown out pretty much immediately. Furthermore, anybody can sue anybody, but in no way does it mean that any public offiicial is allowing one jerk to ruin Christmas. In fact, there was probably "public outrage" over this ridicoulous lawsuit, the same type of "public outrage" that would be out if some jerk sued a temple with a menorah in its window.

And the final question, does it really matter if they call it a holiday tree or Christmas tree. You know what it is, a Christmas tree...so who really cares what the city calls it? Its a Christmas tree. The people screaming bloody murder all across the nation know its a Christmas tree, and know whats its about. I highly doubt the morals of the nation are going to collapse any further because of a sudden influx of holiday trees.

It really just shows you how stupid these groups are, while Rome is burning, all they care about is to call it a Christmas tree, which I don't think has anything to do with the birth of Jesus anyway.

Get Me Coffee

12-13-05, 12:28 AM

Did I see the same movie??? Christian propoganda?????

<img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c301/getmecoffee/wtf.jpg">

Michael Corvin

12-13-05, 12:38 AM

Wow...let me guess--you were a math person in school.

Insult after insult. :wtf:

It meant FIRST, I saw the trailer and it looked like my cup of tea; then SECONDLY, and SHORTLY THEREAFTER, the media controversy which has been painting this filmas PASSION OF THE CHRIST II began to make me question whether it was going to be my cup of tea after all. THIRDLY and LASTLY, I came here to see if others who had seen it could tell me if it was an agenda piece or not. Are we mercifully clear on this now?

Actually that is the clearest post you have made, and yes it makes sense now.

Rockmjd23

12-13-05, 12:42 AM

I've decided to boycott Clash of the Titans because it pushed its polytheistic agenda on me.

Duder

12-13-05, 01:47 AM

I don't believe in tauntauns or the wampa, but I love The Empire Strikes Back.

Wait... so you're saying that tauntauns don't exist???

:sad:

fourwalker

12-13-05, 06:19 AM

The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was the first book I read as a child that I ever really enjoyed, and I have to say I was really pleased with the movie. So far few people in this thread have mentioned the performances of the children, which I thought were terrific (especially the the girl that played Lucy, who I thought was really spirited and smart). I was also really happy that they kept the integrity of the books, even the awkward scene where Santa Clause meets the kids, gives them all weapons, and then tells them to go kick some ass!!! The only real weakness of the film is parts of the soundtrack; what were songs with synthesizers doing in the movie? Whatever, I enjoyed it and I really have to take my hat off to Disney for not giving in to the temptation to water this movie down. If they had I don't think this thread would currently be six pages long.

On a side note I would like to note the great amount of violence in the movie. It seems like all I ever see on TV are weiners saying that there is too much violence in children's entertainment etc... Hey, the Lion the Witch, and the Wardrobe was written in the 50's and these kids are more badass than the Harry Potter kids could ever hope to be. If anything this movie reminds us that violence and darker themes are nothing new to children's media.

Filmmaker

12-13-05, 09:27 AM

I've decided to boycott Clash of the Titans because it pushed its polytheistic agenda on me.

I'm sure it's no secret I like you about as much as a scrote rash, but I gotta admit, that was funny.

Giles

12-13-05, 10:03 AM

On a side note I would like to note the great amount of violence in the movie. It seems like all I ever see on TV are weiners saying that there is too much violence in children's entertainment etc... Hey, the Lion the Witch, and the Wardrobe was written in the 50's and these kids are more badass than the Harry Potter kids could ever hope to be. If anything this movie reminds us that violence and darker themes are nothing new to children's media.

yeah, I was surprised at the amount of violence as well, especially when Susan pegged the Witch King's henchman with the arrow - wow! the sold out crowd I saw approved with oddly - laughter

Rockmjd23

12-13-05, 09:15 PM

I'm sure it's no secret I like you about as much as a scrote rash, but I gotta admit, that was funny.
:nopanic:

Dead

12-14-05, 10:37 AM

Not at all, I just don't relish the idea of having 2 hours of my life pissed away by worshippers of the great celestial Santa Claus...

I don't know what it's about (at least, I didn't until very recently)--that's why I've been asking questions here, bright boy.

Once and for all, since you and others of your faith have misread my posts, ... Get a frickin' grip, holy rollers, please![/COLOR]

...
Then perhaps if any Christmas money comes your way, you should blow it at Lens Crafters.
...

I can't fucking CONCEINVE of why this is so hard for some of you to process--... Is this rocket science?

... please tell me you're all bright enough to understand this simple qualifier.

Your reading comprehension skills are in need of substantial improvement--... Pay attention.
...
Not at all, as I previously mentioned, oh ye of little attention to detail. ...

Yeah, thanks Ferris--I need that info very badly now 24 hours after I saw the freakin' film! Do you guys cover your eyes, point to one post per page and then read only that single post and base all of your feedback thusly???

... Where the fuck do you get off? I was asking from people in the know before I laid down my own money--that's research, pal.
...

... You're not making any sense, and your posts sound like they amount to "You are an idiot asking DVDTalkers for any insights on this film". Oh, and I so "pissed" because you're eating up my day with questions stemming from your lack of attention.
...

I'm sure it's no secret I like you about as much as a scrote rash, but I gotta admit, that was funny.

Given that this isn't the first time you've went on a tirade like this, I've about come to the conclusion that your goal here at DVD Talk is to cause enough turmoil to get yourself banned. In this thread you have both indirectly and directly insulted multiple members, in violation of forum rules. In other places you have been unnecessarily rude and condescending. Maybe you should try the ignore list if other members, who have not broken any rules or been insulting, simply aren't tolerable to your way of thinking.

Dead

12-14-05, 10:40 AM

Uhh yeah, that's what it's about... -screwy-

:nopanic:

...You're no different than the nut at my work who thinks that the Harry Potter movies/books are evil and won't allow his children to see/read them.

So you want some kind of additional rating system that will tell you how much Christian Religion is inserted into the script?

New Rating System:

AD = Atheists Delight - God is murdered on-screen!
AF = Atheists Friendly - Although God isn't murdered on-screen, several characters mockingly discuss how riduculous Christians are for believing in fairy tales!
S = Suspicious. No references to God, but some of the actors might be Christians or Jews.
TYPBH = Tie Your Ponytails Back, Hippies! This film includes the word "Goddamn". Be prepared to get pissed off that there could actually be a "God" to "Damn" something. Ridculous, childish, Santa Claus believing Christians may be sitting in the theater!
CMMWTP = Christianity Makes Me Want To Puke! How anyone can believe in "God" is sickening an an insult!

And, to the rest of you, please don't get caught up in responding to problem posts. These comments only add to the hostility in the thread and some of the content is inappropriate.

Filmmaker

12-14-05, 11:28 AM

Just so I don't get banned, and I'm always gray on this issue, to whom should I direct a reply regarding Dead's assertions? It says I'm not authorized to send him a PM.

Rockmjd23

12-14-05, 09:03 PM

The smiley was just a playful response, no different than the millions of ;) around here.

kvrdave

12-24-05, 02:12 AM

Hmmmm, this is befuddling. Getting irritated with a writer who is a Christian because he brough Christian elements into his story. You know who I am pissed about? Carl Sagan. Here we have an atheist who writes a book and it eventually gets made into a movie (Contact, obviously). So I go see it, being a causal fan of his, and what happens? I get a movie about religion. WHERE DID THAT COME FROM???? I mean, if you want to get irritated with someone, get irritated with Sagan. If I wanted religion in my movies, I wouldn't look to an atheist. I think he was trying to convert me. :grunt:

Iron_Giant

12-24-05, 02:20 PM

brianluvdvd

12-26-05, 06:53 PM

Saw this today & I did not see any overly Christian references unless you count calling the kids a "son of Adam" or a "daughter of Eve."

Just a very general movie with a moral tale. The Bible is so general that I could tie most episodes of The Jeffersons to it.

My question is: where are the outraged Christians who believe that Harry Potter is an tool of Satan for kids? This movie could be considered the same if you judge it the same way they judged the Potter movie/books.

Artman

12-26-05, 08:19 PM

My question is: where are the outraged Christians who believe that Harry Potter is an tool of Satan for kids? This movie could be considered the same if you judge it the same way they judged the Potter movie/books.

I review I read claimed Narnia was different because the good characters did not use witchcraft.

brianluvdvd

12-26-05, 08:55 PM

I review I read claimed Narnia was different because the good characters did not use witchcraft.

Lucy uses a magical potion. I am sure there are other examples.

Hokeyboy

12-26-05, 09:36 PM

Not to mention the various references to the "Old Magic".

I'm not saying the film proselytizes, but aftering seeing it... dammit now I'm eating my pastrami on Wonder Bread with Miracle Whip. OY VEY!! :(

Artman

12-26-05, 10:05 PM

Lucy uses a magical potion. I am sure there are other examples.

Not a lot from what I recall.

Goldberg74

12-27-05, 03:52 AM

Not a lot from what I recall.
Lucy uses that one-drop-heals-all elixir stuff Santa gave her to cure her brother Edmund from the wound that the White Witch gave him. Then she runs from person to person giving them a 'drop'.
I'd call it magic, but I wouldn't label it witchcraft.

snoogins

12-27-05, 05:52 AM

Lucy uses that one-drop-heals-all elixir stuff Santa gave her to cure her brother Edmund from the wound that the White Witch gave him. Then she runs from person to person giving them a 'drop'.
I'd call it magic, but I wouldn't label it witchcraft.

To most Christians, magic is witchcraft

joshd2012

12-27-05, 08:24 AM

brianluvdvd

12-27-05, 09:49 AM

IIRC, that potion was made of Fire Flower. So its really not magic, its like a medicine. Same as using aspirin to cure pain. That's not magic, that's just what it does.

There might be some other magic, but its still early in the morning.

A drop that will cure a mortal wound. A Lion is dead all night but suddenly come back to life b/c of a contract issue. No magic there or is that considered supernatural? Isn't that bad too unless Jesus does it?

I am sure there are other things but I forgot to talk to my wife about it last night.

Not trying to pick a fight but just trying to get a good explanation why one is wrong and the other is okay. I am not a Potter fan at all but it seems there is a lot of hair-splitting going on.

joshd2012

12-27-05, 11:07 AM

Not trying to pick a fight but just trying to get a good explanation why one is wrong and the other is okay. I am not a Potter fan at all but it seems there is a lot of hair-splitting going on.

They are all devine intervention. Jesus can make water turn into wine, but its not "magic" because it was a gift given from a god. Or something.

I'm pretty much the definition of anti-religion, so people splitting hairs about this is no different - to me - then splitting hairs about all the contradictions in the Bible. I just accept it as what they do.

Goldberg74

12-27-05, 01:36 PM

They are all devine intervention... but its not "magic" because it was a gift given from a god.
God = Santa :confused:

Just kidding. ;)

Hokeyboy

12-27-05, 02:23 PM

Aslan is NOT an incarnation of Jesus, but rather Hannukah Harry. There, I said it.

Artman

12-27-05, 07:27 PM

To most Christians, magic is witchcraft

Than why are most Christians singing the praises of Narnia?

jaeufraser

12-27-05, 07:42 PM

Than why are most Christians singing the praises of Narnia?

Because most Christians dont' have any problem with Harry Potter either.

Hokeyboy

12-27-05, 08:12 PM

Yeah, let's not confuse the insane minority with the more sensible majority.

awmurray

12-28-05, 09:11 AM

IIRC, that potion was made of Fire Flower. So its really not magic, its like a medicine. Same as using aspirin to cure pain. That's not magic, that's just what it does.

There might be some other magic, but its still early in the morning.

Here's another clear cut use of magic (not medicine):

The arrows were magic. If you remember, Santa said something like "you'll not easily miss" with these implying they were magic. And, IIRC, one of those arrows when used turned into a flaming bird and swept a line down the battlefield...

So there is a clear cut use of magic. And here's the difference that the Christians who are against Harry Potter need to get: Magic in the movies would be fictional/fantasy. Magic in the real world would be witchcraft. Ironically, those against HP claim that they are afraid it will blur people's perception of reality vs. fantasy when in fact they are the ones having trouble reconciling reality vs. fantasy.

They made the same arguments against Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's. It, like HP, was going to turn everyone into witches and warlocks.

joshd2012

12-28-05, 10:24 AM

Here's another clear cut use of magic (not medicine):

The arrows were magic. If you remember, Santa said something like "you'll not easily miss" with these implying they were magic. And, IIRC, one of those arrows when used turned into a flaming bird and swept a line down the battlefield...

So there is a clear cut use of magic. And here's the difference that the Christians who are against Harry Potter need to get: Magic in the movies would be fictional/fantasy. Magic in the real world would be witchcraft. Ironically, those against HP claim that they are afraid it will blur people's perception of reality vs. fantasy when in fact they are the ones having trouble reconciling reality vs. fantasy.

They made the same arguments against Dungeons and Dragons in the 80's. It, like HP, was going to turn everyone into witches and warlocks.

You could say that Santa (also known as Saint Nicolas) could have "blessed" the arrows in the same way a priest could bless water to make it holy and have some additional powers.

That is just splitting hairs again, but like I said, you either accept that deeply religion folks split hairs all the time or just ignore them all together. They will always have some explanation as to why it differs from the "magic" in HP.


Best Sellers
1.	Wall-E (Single-Disc Edition) Buy: ~~$29.99~~ $15.49
2.	I Am Legend (Widescreen Single-Disc Edition) Buy: ~~$14.98~~ $8.99
3.	Star Trek (Three-Disc +Digital Copy) [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$39.99~~ $19.99
4.	Elf (Infinifilm Edition) Buy: ~~$14.98~~ $8.99
5.	Quantum of Solace [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$39.99~~ $9.99
6.	Spaceballs Buy: ~~$14.98~~ $9.99
7.	Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (Blu-ray/DVD Combo + Digital Copy & BD-Live) [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$35.99~~ $15.99
8.	Up (4 Disc Combo Pack with Digital Copy and DVD) [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$45.99~~ $19.99
9.	Star Trek (Single-Disc Edition) Buy: ~~$29.99~~ $14.99
10.	X-Men Origins: Wolverine (Two-Disc Edition + Digital Copy) [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$39.99~~ $19.99

DVD Blowouts
1.	I Am Legend (Widescreen Single-Disc Edition) Buy: ~~$14.98~~ $8.99
2.	Quantum of Solace [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$39.99~~ $9.99
3.	Elf (Infinifilm Edition) Buy: ~~$14.98~~ $8.99
4.	Blazing Saddles (30th Anniversary Special Edition) Buy: ~~$12.98~~ $5.99
5.	Angels & Demons [Blu-ray] Buy: ~~$39.95~~ $18.99
6.	Looney Tunes - Golden Collection Buy: ~~$64.98~~ $26.49
7.	National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation (Special Edition) Buy: ~~$19.96~~ $11.49
8.	Black Book Buy: ~~$14.94~~ $8.99
9.	Blood Diamond (Widescreen Edition) Buy: ~~$12.98~~ $7.49
10.	Sex and the City - The Movie (Widescreen Edition) Buy: ~~$19.98~~ $11.99