Bring it on! Season starts tonight!

Bucks/Sixers starts in just over an hour.

Bucks should be good this year.

Spurs and Nuggets has been okay so far, but injuries are already creeping up on the Nuggets again.

It was nice to see Webber have a big game after the way last year ended for him, and even bigger props to T.J. Ford for what he's been through.

Queens got rolled :) :up:

I still don't get how so many are picking the Kings to win the Pacific, but whatever. The Spurs won and Finley was great in the fourth so a good start to the season.

I had just made a comment to my houseguests about how I couldn't remember the last time the Spurs lost on opening day. Sure enough, I just read that Spurs are 9-0 on opening day since Duncan joined. Money in the bank, Groundhog Day!

Fuck, can't believe Nene went down. :(

I still don't get how so many are picking the Kings to win the Pacific, but whatever.
Because they have a very deep and talented roster?

Granted they could implode at the drop of a hat, but...

Wow, how about Dallas and Dirk! Taking a 1 point lead with 1:21 to go.

Because they have a very deep and talented roster?

Granted they could implode at the drop of a hat, but...

Whhaattt?? The Kings' bench is terrible. It's their worst bench they've had in like 5 or 6 years. To think that they used to be able to put together 2 starting line-ups with some of the teams they've had. And Bonzi Wells is their starting shooting guard?

Denver's new $30-million PG, Earl Watson, got a DNP-CD. Meanwhile, their only decent SG played in only 3 games last year.

Denver's new $30-million PG, Earl Watson, got a DNP-CD. Meanwhile, their only decent SG played in only 3 games last year.

Lenard is actually a good SG. He shot well last night and was injured for almost all of last season. Their problem is their "healthy" big man Nene went down, which means they now have no real good backup to their duo of Camby + Martin, who are both injury prone.

Overall, the Nuggets did play well on the road at the defending champs. Let's hope they can beat down the Lakers tonight. :)

Pistons represent!! They give a thrashing to the listless 76ers... Darko, Delfino, and Evans come out and show that the Pistons have a better bench this year, we can still play defense and we can score some more points.

All you Rip haters swallowed 37 pts. tonight! Great start!

On a sad note, the 76ers really did look awful. Throw the ball to Iverson over and over but no other options...

Fuck, can't believe Nene went down. :(

He's likely out for the season with "a torn anterior cruciate ligament, a medial collateral ligament sprain and a lateral meniscus tear in his right knee". Not a good way to end your Denver career. That and a 0-2 record is probably not the start to the season that the Nuggets wanted. At least they are getting Geoge Karl back now.

Add to the fact that fragile Marcus Camby, the JD Drew of the NBA, is your center and the Nuggets should worry.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=2211964

Updated: Nov. 2, 2005, 8:01 PM ET

Red Auerbach back in Boston, tweaks Phil Jackson

By Chris Sheridan
ESPN Insider

BOSTON -- Red Auerbach was happy, healthy and cantankerous as ever Wednesday night as he made it to what he estimated was his 50th Boston Celtics home opener.

Just two weeks after leaving a hospital following his third successive medical emergency, Auerbach traveled from his home in Washington along with two doctors and his daughter, Nancy, aboard Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck's private plane for the home opener against the New York Knicks.

Auerbach, who won nine NBA titles while coaching the Celtics -- a record that stood for 36 years until Phil Jackson matched it in 2002 -- still holds the title of team president.

Auerbach couldn't help himself from taking a few shots at Jackson, a man he respects but doesn't particularly admire.

"Phil obviously is a good coach, you don't win that many games without being a good coach. One thing, though. He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say. Larry Brown doesn't pick his spots. He's a great coach," Auerbach said.

Auerbach said he did not hear from Jackson or receive any get-well messages from the Lakers' coach while he was hospitalized during the summer and early fall, first for an intestinal blockage, then for internal bleeding caused by a cyst, and a third time after fluid built up in his lungs from post-surgical inactivity. The latter ailment kept the 88-year-old Auerbach hospitalized almost three weeks.

Auerbach also took a swipe at both Brown and Jackson for taking over teams coming off miserable seasons.

"Phil Jackson, they've got a pretty good ballclub out there, but he's got his built-in excuse. Larry Brown, whatever he does is a plus, so they've got everything going for them," Auerbach said. "You could have taken -- I won't say anybody, but you can take any knowledgeable coach and put them in those situations, and they can't do any worse. If L.A. doesn't make the playoffs, it's building. If New York doesn't make the playoffs, we're building, you know?"

Auerbach also predicted the San Antonio Spurs will not win the 2006 NBA championship, though he didn't explain his reasoning. "I know they're not going to win it," he said.

Wearing a white sweater with a Celtics logo beneath his tan sports coat, Auerbach spoke with reporters for about 10 minutes more than two hours prior to the start of the Knicks-Celtics game. Afterward, he met briefly with Brown.

"He's a phenomenal man. I was hoping he'd be at the first game," Brown said.


Chris Sheridan, a national NBA reporter for the past decade, covers the league for ESPN Insider.


Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Chris

All you Rip haters swallowed 37 pts. tonight!

And here I was just about to check the hundreds of "Rip Hamilton Hate Club" webpages out there too, since we all know how hated Rip is around the league and in NBA fan circles.

Payroll -- Sour grapes based in a world of truth.

Deron Williams = Rookie of the Year

"Phil Jackson, they've got a pretty good ballclub out there, but he's got his built-in excuse" ... "I won't say anybody, but you can take any knowledgeable coach and put them in those situations, and they can't do any worse. If L.A. doesn't make the playoffs, it's building."

It hardly seems fair to give him crap for taking on teams with superstars and winning with them, and then turn around and give him crap for taking on a struggling team with low expectations.

And here I was just about to check the hundreds of "Rip Hamilton Hate Club" webpages out there too, since we all know how hated Rip is around the league and in NBA fan circles.

Don't you lead the charge?

Sounds like sour grapes to me.
rotfl

Payroll -- Sour grapes based in a world of truth.

Come on, Red Auerbach had a team full of Hall of Famers and the quality of the oponents (except for the Lakers) was not as good as it is today. With that being said, I think the best decade for teams was the 80's.

Chris

Don't you lead the charge?

No, why would I? Rip is a very good player, and just about everyone here would agree. It's just funny to me because Rip is one of the last guys in the NBA that I would think of as having "haters."

In regards to Red, I agree with mrpayroll. He didn't exactly win 9 titles with scrubs either.

No, why would I? Rip is a very good player, and just about everyone here would agree. It's just funny to me because Rip is one of the last guys in the NBA that I would think of as having "haters."

In regards to Red, I agree with mrpayroll. He didn't exactly win 9 titles with scrubs either.Don't mind him, he's just mad that many people laughed at his comment that Rip was better than Wade because he's won a championship and Wade hasn't (rotfl)

Don't mind him, he's just mad that many people laughed at his comment that Rip was better than Wade because he's won a championship and Wade hasn't (rotfl)
So by that measure of standard, Jack Haley is better than Pat Ewing or Charles Barkley? :eek:

Don't mind him, he's just mad that many people laughed at his comment that Rip was better than Wade because he's won a championship and Wade hasn't (rotfl)

Yeah, I know that's why it was mentioned. It just doesn't make any sense since Rip having a great night has absolutely nothing to do with that discussion. :shrug:

Shaq with a nasty ankle sprain already. :lol:

good win for the Pacers despite their bad second half.

Shaq with a nasty ankle sprain already. :lol:

And so it starts... Fat Shaq is injured already.

So by that measure of standard, Jack Haley is better than Pat Ewing or Charles Barkley? :eek:

Har dee har. I'll repeat again, that was not what I said. I said that two equally talented players with like teams who both have the chance to win - one wins, one doesn't, the one who wins is ahead of the other in their career.

Further, I had asked what Wade had done that Rip hadn't outdone him in. Rip has a ring, played in big games, won, has more experience, more stats, etc. etc.

I didn't say 'Rip is better than Wade' that's what darkside twisted it into.

But I was mistaken, it is darkside who leads the I hate Rip club' by proxy of his word twisting. He was embarrased last year when the pistons beat the Heat as well after all his big words...

Nice win for the Suns last night although they almost gave me another heart attack with that near 4th quarter meltdown. That was one of the nicest things about last year's team, when it came down to crunch time and we could put out a lineup of Nash, Richardson, Johnson, Marion, and Stoudemire it provided a certain comfort level that someone would be able to step up.

Barbosa has been very impressive so far this season, I was almost ready to write him off after last season despite his obvious talent but he seems to be playing with much more confidence this year. It was also nice to see Raja Bell get into it a little bit with Kobe, they lacked some of that physical intensity last year.

Shaq with a nasty ankle sprain already. :lol:

Did anyone see this play? What the hell was Artest doing meandering in there while Radio was in the air?

Did anyone see this play? What the hell was Artest doing meandering in there while Radio was in the air?

I saw it and I had to turn away at the replays, since I've sprained my right ankle that bad or worse at least 15 times in my life.

Chris

and the Central Division remains undefeated

What a shot by Rip hamilton with only .8 seconds on the clock. Ice water running through his veins I say!

Good play call by Flip to win the game. Pistons go 2-0!

What a shot by Rip hamilton with only .8 seconds on the clock. Ice water running through his veins I say!

Good play call by Flip to win the game. Pistons go 2-0!
Don't the Pistons have a thread already? :hscratch:

The 76ers lost to the Bobcats at home in Philadelphia. That's very shameful. What a disgrace.

Don't the Pistons have a thread already? :hscratch:

Yeah but it's kinda lonely over there. So I'll bug you guys instead...

Pacers are sucking it up tonight against the sixers, if they don't do something fast, Philly will get it's first win tonight

Yeah but it's kinda lonely over there. So I'll bug you guys instead...
Well, then maybe you should delete it if you're not going to keep it going. Save Geoff some bandwidth. :shrug:

Well, then maybe you should delete it if you're not going to keep it going. Save Geoff some bandwidth. :shrug:

Nahh. Once the Pistons start to prove they're a cut above the rest of the East, I'm confident the fans will speak up. Plus, I'll leave it there for you're enjoyment! ;)

Pistons DESTROY the helpless Raptors tonight to go 3-0. They throw up 117 pts. breaking 100 again for 2 out of 3 games. With the bench we have and the development of Prince and Hamilton, this team looks to know what to do with the ball better than last year.

Meanwhile, Indiana, Miami and the Spurs trip up tonight leaving the Pistons as the only undefeated team of the projected top 4 best teams.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20051028-091241-4448r.htm

Singer-actress Brandy has ended her 15-month engagement with NBA star
Quentin Richardson and transformed her tattoo of him into a cat.


The New York Knicks player presented the 26-year-old single mom with a
$1 million engagement ring last July, the World Entertainment News Network
noted. But the couple split last month and since then, Brandy has undergone

the painful process of having her back tattoo changed into a cat, WENN said.
Brandy was married for two years to producer Robert Smith, the father
of Sy'rai, 3.

Smith last year revealed they never really married, it was just a
cover to protect her reputation when she became pregnant. Brandy called the
arrangement "a non-traditional marriage," but said they had a commitment and
spiritual union.

Wow. The brothers poison are already showing their true colors in Miami. Williams and Walker arguing on the court during the game... Can't say we didn't see this coming. Pat Riley, what were you thinking???

classy group in Sacramento the NBA's got -ohbfrank-

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- The Sacramento Kings' marketing staff made their team and fans look like royal snobs before Tuesday night's game.

As the Pistons were introduced, pictures of burned-out cars, abandoned buildings and empty streets were flashed on ARCO Arena's big screen.

It didn't go unnoticed.

Coach Flip Saunders said it made him mad. Assistant coach Don Zierden called it inappropriate. After the game, the players -- many of whom didn't notice the images when they were shown -- were angry when they were told what had happened.

And the Pistons -- who had lost eight straight here and hadn't beaten the Kings at home since February 1996 -- spoiled Sacramento's home opener, 102-88.

Maybe that will change the Kings' attitude. Leland Patton, their director of event presentation, said the team plans to create a lead-in for each visiting team...
http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pistonss9e_20051109.htm

Leland Patton, their director of event presentation, said the team plans to create a lead-in for each visiting team...
I just hope the lead in for the Laker games is Robert Horry hitting that fucking three that destroyed their entire franchise. :lol:

Has anyone seen Sprewell lately? Looks like he was right. Nevermind his family, Sprewell hasn't been able to feed himself!

http://www.thesideliner.com/Images/sprewell.jpg

classy group in Sacramento the NBA's got -ohbfrank-
Yeah, whatever happened to the good old days of just burning your opponent's jersey before the game? :shrug:

Has anyone seen Sprewell lately? Looks like he was right. Nevermind his family, Sprewell hasn't been able to feed himself!

WTF - it doesn't even look like his neck is thick enough to hold his head up.

That Sprewell picture is definitely photoshopped.

Tough start for the Heat... (snicker) I was hoping they would beat Indiana last night, but Indiana found a way to win...

Wow, awesome game going on in Phoenix tonight...

Pistons get revenge for blowing a game in the desert last year in the 4th. Clutch buckets from Rip and Chauncey in the final 2 minutes while Phx didn't get a shot off on 2 or 3 straight possessions

I'm really going to be interested in seeing how Detroit and San Antonio evolve this year. Detroit is looking very sharp to start. I knew they were a great team obviously, but I didn't think they would look this good, this early with a new coach. San Antonio is winning, but they are having major growing pains with their new players and early injuries. They look unbeatable with Duncan and Parker on the floor and awful when those two are on the bench. They are definitely going to need time to get that rotation worked out.

Its way early in the season, but I have to admit the possiblity of a Piston and Spurs rematch is looking a lot more likely than I thought.

I'm really going to be interested in seeing how Detroit and San Antonio evolve this year. Detroit is looking very sharp to start. I knew they were a great team obviously, but I didn't think they would look this good, this early with a new coach. San Antonio is winning, but they are having major growing pains with their new players and early injuries. They look unbeatable with Duncan and Parker on the floor and awful when those two are on the bench. They are definitely going to need time to get that rotation worked out.

Its way early in the season, but I have to admit the possiblity of a Piston and Spurs rematch is looking a lot more likely than I thought.

And yet, they only have a 1 game lead on the Pacers...

Pistons 6-0
Larry Brown 0-5

:lol:

pistons:championship team with no major roster changes

Larry Brown: coaching a team that is still trying to figure each other out and without a proven player besides stephon, wich there are already people reporting that he isnt happy

Tough start for the Heat... (snicker) I was hoping they would beat Indiana last night, but Indiana found a way to win...

They might get some help with Terrell Owens possibly coming:

3. Wondering where former Sacramento Kings summer-league invite and surprise Atlanta Hawks fan (see above photo) Terrell Owens will play next? It's just a rumor at this stage, but I hear the Heat are interested.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-051112-13

Is he a tits or ass man? You decide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/salqaddoumi/wadetitie.jpg

Utah scored only 62 points tonight! :lol:

Utah scored only 62 points tonight! :lol:

The LA-Memphis and NY-Utah games both looked pretty wretched. Oh the days when people cracked 90 points :)

Holy Crap! Pistons start 7-0!!!

21 pts, 20 rbs for Dwight Howard right after a game of 21 pts, 16 rbs. This kid could be a monster.

Anyone know why Josh Howard (Dal) is not getting as many minutes? He's played like 30 minutes total the past two games causing his point and rebound totals to plummet.

Where are all the regulars? Are they waiting for something? Probably, waiting for the season to get to the midway point before they care...

Indiana got handed a beatdown tonight by the BOBCATS of all teams... Miami takes OT to beat the Hornets... Is this bizarro NBA? Meanwhile Lebron's team looks awesome and those Nets, well guess what they're hovering above that 8th seed spot... I really think I'm gonna win that bet this year ;)

Pacers laid an egg, they came out looking great in the first quarter, but then just couldn't do anything right at all it seemed

oh well every team has a slump during the season, I'd rather it be now than in May/June!

What do Knicks fans think of David Lee? He seemed to be a workhorse on the boards last night.

And it was nice to see Kareem Rush throw down 35 last night. :beer:

Can anyone help me out with what Barkley said about Garnett last night (I think i twas last night)?

I would REALLY appreciate it.

Can anyone help me out with what Barkley said about Garnett last night (I think i twas last night)?

I would REALLY appreciate it.

I don't thave the exact quote, but he was saying how he deserves better than to be on the Timberwolves team (basically, mocking the t-wolves and saying they stink).

Well, in the "didn't take long department", Stephon Marbury is bristling at the way Larry wants his point guards to play, and so he wants to be moved to shooting guard so he can, well, shoot to his heart's content! :lol: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2228374

What's the line on when all of these players and the guy who brought them here get jettisoned?

Well, in the "didn't take long department", Stephon Marbury is bristling at the way Larry wants his point guards to play

:lol: absolutely brutal: "He had 2-for-9 [against Los Angeles]. What if he goes 5-for-9? We win the game."

That is a great quote above. Other than his penchant for job-hopping, I'm pretty sure Larry Brown has miles more clout than Marbury, who has been a stain everywhere he has been.

A good trade would be if they can get Marbury back to Minnesota.

I don't thave the exact quote, but he was saying how he deserves better than to be on the Timberwolves team (basically, mocking the t-wolves and saying they stink).

Well, he's dead right. McHale has completely ruined this franchise for the next 5 years, at least. I used to be a diehard wolves fan, but its hard to watch when you see abosultely no future for this team.

That is a great quote above. Other than his penchant for job-hopping, I'm pretty sure Larry Brown has miles more clout than Marbury, who has been a stain everywhere he has been.
Larry has more clout than the guy who hired him. I don't really expect Thomas to last more than this season.

Marbury's request makes a little sense though. He's more Allen Iverson then Jason Kidd, and requesting that he play the same roll as AI during Brown's Philly days would make a lot of sense if the Knicks had someone else who could play PG. Marbury has always been a scorer, so trying to turn him into a distributor just isn't going to work very well.

But at 6ft 2in he's much too small the be a SG in this league. And I know Iverson is shorter, but I view him as an exception.

Well, the real problem is exactly as Larry said, they have no true PG, no distributor like Eric Snow in Philly to play that role. Marbury's the best distributor they have.

Well, he's dead right. McHale has completely ruined this franchise for the next 5 years, at least. I used to be a diehard wolves fan, but its hard to watch when you see abosultely no future for this team.
Agreed. It's about time KG spoke out and called attention to the horrible job McHale has been doing for years.

McHale has been getting a free pass for almost a decade because he's Kevin McHale. It's way past time he be held accountable.

Good for KG. I just wish he'd done it 5 years ago.

I'm not a wolves fan, but to Mchale's/their defense, just 2 seasons ago, they had one of the best regular season teams.

I wouldn't say they have been THAT bad over the years, just recently. if you want to see bad teams over extended periods of time, check some of the teams in the pacific division :(

Agreed. It's about time KG spoke out and called attention to the horrible job McHale has been doing for years.

McHale has been getting a free pass for almost a decade because he's Kevin McHale. It's way past time he be held accountable.

Good for KG. I just wish he'd done it 5 years ago.

I really, really agree with this and I would even add Danny Ainge to the list. They seem to get free passes because of being Celtic greats, but they have both done really shitty jobs as GMs. Granted Ainge hasn't been at it as long as McHale, but he seems to have gone backwards in the time he has been there.

Wow is Dallas off to a strong start. They crush the Spurs and now the Pistons in the first meetings of the season. It wasn't just that they beat both of them, but they destroyed both of them.

Yeah, I know its early, but Dallas has to have a ton of confidence after those two victories.

I've got Dirk on my fantasy team, so I've been following Dallas. Yeah, they look good. A lot better than the Wizards, lately. Josh Howard has really kicked it up a notch the last two games.

I'm a long time Wizards fan, and I'm worried about their three losses in a row. At first I thought they were better this year than they were last year, but now I'm uncertain. Any other Wizards fans here? Make me feel better! :)

I've got Dirk on my fantasy team, so I've been following Dallas. Yeah, they look good. A lot better than the Wizards, lately. Josh Howard has really kicked it up a notch the last two games.

I'm a long time Wizards fan, and I'm worried about their three losses in a row. At first I thought they were better this year than they were last year, but now I'm uncertain. Any other Wizards fans here? Make me feel better! :)

I'm not a Wiz fan, but that was one of San Antonio's other bad losses of the season and Arenas kicked the Spurs ass. Wiz will definitely be in the playoffs this year and I think are better than last year overall.

Holy crap the Raptors finally won!

Wow is Dallas off to a strong start. They crush the Spurs and now the Pistons in the first meetings of the season. It wasn't just that they beat both of them, but they destroyed both of them.

Yeah, I know its early, but Dallas has to have a ton of confidence after those two victories.

This loss made me sick... In addition to losing the winning streak, the Pistons seemed to lay down as well. Ben Wallace's foot injury made him a non-factor.

Further, I just watched Dallas barely beat the Hawks at home and then they go out and crush a team on an 8 game win streak? Dang.

Spurs blew a huge lead against the Kings. They have yet to look anything like last years team to this point. That defense just hasn't shown up yet.

Refs have helped out the Kings a little bit though. At least Horry's going in now. He loves blowing up the Kings.

It's Duncan's mini-fro. Once he shaves it off they'll be okay.

And thanks for making me feel better about the Wizards.

I'm a diehard Spurs fan. However, I lived in DC from '01-'05 and I had a chance to follow the Wizards closely. Most of that time they brought the suck. But as soon as the Kwame Brown left, I noted a marked improvement. I was sooo proud last season when the Wiz not only made the playoffs, but made it into the second round! (Second round t-shirts, anyone?)
I have a lot of respect for this team and for Coach Eddie Jordan. I hope the Wizards can make a strong showing this season.

I hope the Wizards can make a strong showing this season.

Hopefully! :)

My brother lives in Boston, but his favorite team is the Spurs. He's always been a big Tim Duncan fan.

Ugggghh... I'm watching the Wiz right now...... the pain... The Wizards are losing to the Magic 31-44 at the half. And Steve Francis isn't even playing. :(

Spurs decide not to screw around tonight and crushed the Warriors. Much better looking team tonight, but Parker rolled his ankle so we will have to see about that one.

The real reason Kevin Garnett wants out of Minnesota:

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/11/09/gallery.nbacheerleader1/16.jpg

The real reason Kevin Garnett wants out of Minnesota:

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/11/09/gallery.nbacheerleader1/16.jpg


I'd hit it. :hump:

I'd hit it. :hump:

Yeah, I have to admit I like em with a little baby fat so I would be all over that.

Welcome to Dwight Howard:

http://espn.go.com/media/nba/2005/1024/photo/orl_g_howard_268.jpg

Anyone else hate the rule change that allows players on defense to basically double-team a guy who's on the low post w/out the ball?

Anyone else hate the rule change that allows players on defense to basically double-team a guy who's on the low post w/out the ball?

Yup. I do. Rule changes never sit well with me, but sometimes there's a good one here or there.

Nice to see the Pistons beat the Nets tonight and help my bet along. Do you two guys remember??? ;) As of today, the Nets are 10th in the Eastern conference (by the way, Cleveland is doing far better as I said they would). Granted it is early and there's a long way to go and they are also only 1/2 a game out of being seeded 3rd (cause the atlantic is so crappy) but seriously, Jason Kidd Puts up 8 pts. 5 assists tonight, this team seems to be going nowhere.

I feel confident that it will not be me changing his signature come year end.

Wow, what a crazy Spurs vs Mavericks game. First Tony Parker hits two clutch freethrows which is crazy enough, but then Duncan gets pushed out of bounds but no foul is called. Then they inbound and 7 foot Dirk gets blocked by Bruce Bowen on the final shot for the tie. Excellent game that was back and forth the whole way through.

Wow, what a crazy Spurs vs Mavericks game. First Tony Parker hits two clutch freethrows which is crazy enough, but then Duncan gets pushed out of bounds but no foul is called. Then they inbound and 7 foot Dirk gets blocked by Bruce Bowen on the final shot for the tie. Excellent game that was back and forth the whole way through.

Yep, great game. Awesome win on the road for the Spurs without Manu.

bogus foul to put Bryant on the line w/ 0.4 seconds to tie the game

Detroit sleptwalk through the Knicks game and still won...

The central division is so good, it's scary...

bogus foul to put Bryant on the line w/ 0.4 seconds to tie the game

It was a total bullcrap foul, but it was also a pretty awesome sell by Kobe. The guy looks up and sees Brown's arm hitting Kobe's and assumed he initiated the contact instead of Kobe.

It was a contest for lottery draft order anyway so really the Jazz won.

I think this picture describes pretty well what it is like to have Bruce Bowen guarding you.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20051204/capt.txds10412040406.76ers_spurs__txds104.jpg
I still find it funny that these superstars who get almost all the calls their way get mad when someone has the audacity to actually play defense on them (this includes Duncan who at least does his complaining during the game and then shuts up about it). AI complains about Bowen, but I saw him push off at least 10 times and get away with it. AI had a great game, but took 32 shots which pretty much turned his teammates into spectators. I don't know what AI is complaining about at least Bruce didn't pull a Wally Szczerbiak on him.

I think this picture describes pretty well what it is like to have Bruce Bowen guarding you.
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20051204/capt.txds10412040406.76ers_spurs__txds104.jpg
I still find it funny that these superstars who get almost all the calls their way get mad when someone has the audacity to actually play defense on them (this includes Duncan who at least does his complaining during the game and then shuts up about it). AI complains about Bowen, but I saw him push off at least 10 times and get away with it. AI had a great game, but took 32 shots which pretty much turned his teammates into spectators. I don't know what AI is complaining about at least Bruce didn't pull a Wally Szczerbiak on him.

I know what you mean. As a fan of the nba for 14 years or since I was 10, i'm getting so sick of seeing stars complain about every call or lack of call. Pick your spots. No doubt stars like Jordan, Johnson, and Bird complained, but they picked their spots.

I still find it funny that these superstars who get almost all the calls their way get mad when someone has the audacity to actually play defense on them (this includes Duncan who at least does his complaining during the game and then shuts up about it). AI complains about Bowen, but I saw him push off at least 10 times and get away with it. AI had a great game, but took 32 shots which pretty much turned his teammates into spectators. I don't know what AI is complaining about at least Bruce didn't pull a Wally Szczerbiak on him.

Based on the number of players that have complained about Bowen, it doesn't surprise me.

Bowen is a damn good defnsive player. I would like to see some team put an enforcer on him though to put some of those hard-nosed plays right back in his face... Where's Rick Mahorn or Bill Laimbeer?

Bowen is a damn good defnsive player. I would like to see some team put an enforcer on him though to put some of those hard-nosed plays right back in his face... Where's Rick Mahorn or Bill Laimbeer?

The problem is Bowen is only going to stay on the perimeter and wait for his kick out threes. You put a good defender on him and they will have little opportunity to beat the guy up not to mention Parker, Ginobili and Duncan will be tearing you apart while you waste time on a guy that takes 4-5 shots a game tops.

Nice elbows Nowitzki:


Kirk Hinrich was released from the hospital, but could miss a few games with the concussion he suffered from the elbow of Dirk Nowitzki last night.

-

Luol Deng lost a front tooth last night as a result of a Dirk Nowizki elbow.

I know the Clippers thread is buried somewhere, never to return, so I'll post here.

I've been to the last two Clippers games, and I've been very impressed by their play. Granted, they beat a Cavs team that struggled all night and a Shaq-less Miami Heat, but still. It amazes me how many open jumpers Elton Brand gets from 12-14 feet. In the Cavs game, Kaman got something like 9 rebounds by the middle of the first quarter, finishing with 19... never thought I'd see that. I'm not ready to declare them the real deal or anything, and it's still early in the year, but like I said, I'm impressed.

Yesterday was the first sellout of the season, though I'm sure most of the fans bought tickets to see Shaq...

Suns raping the fuck out of the TrailBlazers. 40 points. rotfl

Where are all those people that said the Suns wouldn't be that good w/o Amare. :lol:

Suns raping the fuck out of the TrailBlazers. 40 points. rotfl

Where are all those people that said the Suns wouldn't be that good w/o Amare. :lol:

Well to be fair all those same people were dead right about the Rockets without McGrady.

Suns raping the fuck out of the TrailBlazers. 40 points. rotfl

Where are all those people that said the Suns wouldn't be that good w/o Amare. :lol:

They were 4-5 before this recent 6 game win streak :)

And to be fair, wins against Toronto, Houston, Atlanta, and the Blazers aren't exactly proof of anything :p If they can beat division rivals Golden State and the Clips coming up, I'll be sold though.

They were 4-5 before this recent 6 game win streak :)

And to be fair, wins against Toronto, Houston, Atlanta, and the Blazers aren't exactly proof of anything :p If they can beat division rivals Golden State and the Clips coming up, I'll be sold though.

Wins are wins. They also beat an Indiana team that was "supposedly" better than them.

45 point loss. My god, that's just humilating. I'll bet Nate was glad he took this coaching job. :lol:

They were 4-5 before this recent 6 game win streak :)

And to be fair, wins against Toronto, Houston, Atlanta, and the Blazers aren't exactly proof of anything :p If they can beat division rivals Golden State and the Clips coming up, I'll be sold though.

1 out of 2 so far. Now can you admit they are a pretty damn good team even w/o Amare? ;)

1 out of 2 so far. Now can you admit they are a pretty damn good team even w/o Amare? ;)

Yup, they're looking pretty good. Mostly because Nash is playing a lot better then I thought he would. I expected him to revert back to his Dallas numbers, but he's holding his own.

I disagree with the NBA Fastbreak guys that were saying Phoenix could slip in as contenders though.

I disagree with the NBA Fastbreak guys that were saying Phoenix could slip in as contenders though.
WIthout Amare? No chance. With him (and isn't he due back mid-season?), yeah, they are a contender.

Yeah, with Amare back they will definitely be contenders. The team is doing better than could be hoped without him so they have a very good chance come playoffs when he returns.

The Heat are in the same boat. They have scrapped well enough without Shaq that they should be a very good team with him back, but man does Shaq ever look fat again.

WIthout Amare? No chance. With him (and isn't he due back mid-season?), yeah, they are a contender.

I don't think they have a chance to be contenders, but I knew that everyone in the national media were underestimating their potential.

Yeah, with Amare back they will definitely be contenders. The team is doing better than could be hoped without him so they have a very good chance come playoffs when he returns.

The Heat are in the same boat. They have scrapped well enough without Shaq that they should be a very good team with him back, but man does Shaq ever look fat again.

Speaking of, I think we can drop all the comparisons to MJ for Dwyane Wade now. The team is .500 with Wade in control. Looks like another Penny, Koby, etc. Shaq makes these guys look so good when they are really just the same caliber as say... Rip Hamilton?

Speaking of, I think we can drop all the comparisons to MJ for Dwyane Wade now. The team is .500 with Wade in control. Looks like another Penny, Koby, etc. Shaq makes these guys look so good when they are really just the same caliber as say... Rip Hamilton?

Wade will turn 24 this year, the season where Jordan turned 24 his team was 40-42. Not to say that Wade is any MJ, but I don't think that stat has much relevance.

Speaking of, I think we can drop all the comparisons to MJ for Dwyane Wade now. The team is .500 with Wade in control. Looks like another Penny, Koby, etc. Shaq makes these guys look so good when they are really just the same caliber as say... Rip Hamilton?

Who's Koby?

That particular argument doesn't hold very well since Jordan's success as the team leader came with one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history playing alongside him.

And no, Kobe and Wade are still better players then Rip Hamilton.

Speaking of, I think we can drop all the comparisons to MJ for Dwyane Wade now. The team is .500 with Wade in control. Looks like another Penny, Koby, etc. Shaq makes these guys look so good when they are really just the same caliber as say... Rip Hamilton?

Who the hell would ever compare Rip Hamilton to Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade? Just how is Rip Hamilton even as half as talented as either of those two?

Miami is a 2-seed right now in the Eastern Conference with a 10-10 record!

Who the hell would ever compare Rip Hamilton to Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade? Just how is Rip Hamilton even as half as talented as either of those two?

I've never heard the Wade and MJ comparison, but anyone that compares any other player to Jordan is insane. People want the next Jordan, Bird, Magic, whatever but its not happening.

Now comparing Rip Hamilton to Kobe may be even crazier. Rip played most of the NBA Finals last year with both hands wrapped around his throat and that is not something Kobe would do. Rip doesn't have the game or the poise under pressure of Bryant and that is not an insult because nobody else in the league, besides the possiblity of Lebron James some time in the future as he matures, does either.

Ron Ron wants to be traded! Wonder if Indiana fans feel the same way about him as Eagles fans feel about Terrel Owens now. In the past, trade scenerios have come up involving him and Peja or Odom.

just noticed this thread (since I dont watch the nba much)

but :lol: @ a single thread for the entire season rotfl

just noticed this thread (since I dont watch the nba much)

but :lol: @ a single thread for the entire season rotfl

If you don't care, don't bother with the useless posts.

Ron Ron wants to be traded! Wonder if Indiana fans feel the same way about him as Eagles fans feel about Terrel Owens now. In the past, trade scenerios have come up involving him and Peja or Odom.
After hearing about this, I really want to see Artest to get traded to NY like he wants. Imagine a team with Marbury, Larry Brown, Artest, and Eddy Curry. Oh, if only they would turn the Knick locker room into something like Big Brother so we could see the hilarity that would ensue.

Imagine a team with Marbury, Larry Brown, Artest, and Eddy Curry. Oh, if only they would turn the Knick locker room into something like Big Brother so we could see the hilarity that would ensue.

Don't forget about Isiah Thomas and Anfernee Hardaway

just noticed this thread (since I dont watch the nba much)

but :lol: @ a single thread for the entire season rotfl

fumanstan is right on... either post on the topic or don't post at all.

Who the hell would ever compare Rip Hamilton to Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade? Just how is Rip Hamilton even as half as talented as either of those two?

Well, here's the head-to-head stats when they played games that mattered, most - the Playoffs. Against Kobe in the '04 Finals there was no question that Rip got the best of Kobe. Oh yeah, in both cases the Pistons won the game in large part due to Hamilton. (I'm sure this won't satisfy those of you who think dunking the bull and making over the head layups = greatness). So I guess 'I' would compare them, Aphex. My point is that any shooting guard with any talent is 150% better off by playing with O'Neal.

Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kobe Bryant 5 5 46.2 .381 .174 .920 .40 2.40 2.80 4.4 1.80 .60 3.60 3.00 22.6
Richard Hamilton 5 5 44.4 .402 .400 .853 2.40 2.80 5.20 4.0 .80 .00 4.60 1.80 21.4


Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Hamilton 7 7 44.3 .474 .200 .787 1.40 2.60 4.00 5.9 1.14 .29 1.86 2.60 23.6
Dwyane Wade 6 6 39.3 .440 .000 .818 1.30 3.20 4.50 4.3 1.67 1.00 2.83 3.50 25.8

Ron Ron wants to be traded! Wonder if Indiana fans feel the same way about him as Eagles fans feel about Terrel Owens now. In the past, trade scenerios have come up involving him and Peja or Odom.

And thus, the Pacers die... Artest is the worst thing in the NBA. He is just like Rodman - if no one is paying attention to him, he makes an issue out of thin air. This guy is best off out of the league making rap albums.

After hearing about this, I really want to see Artest to get traded to NY like he wants. Imagine a team with Marbury, Larry Brown, Artest, and Eddy Curry. Oh, if only they would turn the Knick locker room into something like Big Brother so we could see the hilarity that would ensue.

Lol. How many ex Bulls players should the Knicks get? Maybe they should try to bring in Jay Williams. I hear he wants to make a comeback. Oh, and Tim Floyd should be the assistant coach. rotfl

And no, Kobe and Wade are still better players then Rip Hamilton.

No doubt about that. As was Penny before his injuries.

Well, here's the head-to-head stats when they played games that mattered, most - the Playoffs. Against Kobe in the '04 Finals there was no question that Rip got the best of Kobe. Oh yeah, in both cases the Pistons won the game in large part due to Hamilton. (I'm sure this won't satisfy those of you who think dunking the bull and making over the head layups = greatness). So I guess 'I' would compare them, Aphex. My point is that any shooting guard with any talent is 150% better off by playing with O'Neal.

Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kobe Bryant 5 5 46.2 .381 .174 .920 .40 2.40 2.80 4.4 1.80 .60 3.60 3.00 22.6
Richard Hamilton 5 5 44.4 .402 .400 .853 2.40 2.80 5.20 4.0 .80 .00 4.60 1.80 21.4


Player G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Hamilton 7 7 44.3 .474 .200 .787 1.40 2.60 4.00 5.9 1.14 .29 1.86 2.60 23.6
Dwyane Wade 6 6 39.3 .440 .000 .818 1.30 3.20 4.50 4.3 1.67 1.00 2.83 3.50 25.8


If you think all Wade and Kobe do are "dunking the ball and making over the head layups," this discussion isn't going to go very far. I wouldn't say Rip got the best of Kobe either, since Prince and the collective defense of the Pistons team had a lot more to do with containing Kobe then Hamilton himself.

I don't think anyone would disagree that playing with Shaq is a benefit, but neither Kobe or Wade's numbers have declined without Shaq. They're doing the same thing with or without him, which really makes the only case for your argument the team record. Wait, so a team with two superstars wins more games then one? Brilliant!

If you think all Wade and Kobe do are "dunking the ball and making over the head layups," this discussion isn't going to go very far. I wouldn't say Rip got the best of Kobe either, since Prince and the collective defense of the Pistons team had a lot more to do with containing Kobe then Hamilton himself.

I don't think anyone would disagree that playing with Shaq is a benefit, but neither Kobe or Wade's numbers have declined without Shaq. They're doing the same thing with or without him, which really makes the only case for your argument the team record. Wait, so a team with two superstars wins more games then one? Brilliant!

I don't think that dunking is all that they do, but I think it makes most people think they are 'better' than say, a Rip Hamilton. If people watched Hamilton more they might equate his shooting of screens, motion offense mastery, etc. with the spectacular dunking.

My point originally was that playing with Shaq makes some guards look better than they are. Last year, there was a whole lot of Wade=MJ comparison going on and like I said, we see that this is not the case. It wasn't I that made the comparison, but some on this forum...

Further, I love how folks say that Wade and Kobe are better hands down... Anyone who looks at it objectively would see that Hamilton is right there with them, but he does it a different way. I showed you the stats, what more do you want?

:down: Mike Dunleavy orders the Clippers to start intentionally fouling Ben Wallace on every Piston possession with like 5:30 to go in the 4th. Only problem is: for this strategy to be successful, your team must score, and the Clippers couldn't. Ben missed a ton of FT's, but the Pistons got some key offensive rebounds and actually extended their lead from 10 to 15. Later, when the Pistons pulled their starters, Rasheed got a technical (shocker) for letting Dunleavy know how he felt about his strategy :lol:

:down: Mike Dunleavy orders the Clippers to start intentionally fouling Ben Wallace on every Piston possession with like 5:30 to go in the 4th. Only problem is: for this strategy to be successful, your team must score, and the Clippers couldn't. Ben missed a ton of FT's, but the Pistons got some key offensive rebounds and actually extended their lead from 10 to 15. Later, when the Pistons pulled their starters, Rasheed got a technical (shocker) for letting Dunleavy know how he felt about his strategy :lol:

Hack-a-Ben was employed unsuccessfully last year as well. Usually Ben makes the foul shots out of pure spite, but this game he was awful... Fortunately the game was already in hand by the time they tried it and the Pistons just clamped down on them...

Pistons in Utah tomorrow, looking to go 6-0 out west this year. They are 10-1 on the road this year and really really impressing me offensively.

Brand was a beast tonight.

I don't think that dunking is all that they do, but I think it makes most people think they are 'better' than say, a Rip Hamilton. If people watched Hamilton more they might equate his shooting of screens, motion offense mastery, etc. with the spectacular dunking.

My point originally was that playing with Shaq makes some guards look better than they are. Last year, there was a whole lot of Wade=MJ comparison going on and like I said, we see that this is not the case. It wasn't I that made the comparison, but some on this forum...

Further, I love how folks say that Wade and Kobe are better hands down... Anyone who looks at it objectively would see that Hamilton is right there with them, but he does it a different way. I showed you the stats, what more do you want?

Objectively? So every NBA analyst, writer, and reporter have just been clouded by dunks and highlight reels from Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade, while you, a Pistons fan (who's opinion may be viewed by many here in the past as... a bit slanted) have seen through it all?

John Hollinger's PER ratings puts Kobe and Wade as #1 and #2 for Shooting Guards. Rip is #12. That may be an artificial statistic, but since you wanted to talk stats, we have that figure which takes into account "all of a player's statistical contributions -- points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, missed shots, turnovers and fouls."

Even a NBA General Manager's vote put Kobe and Wade as the best SG's in the game.

http://www.nba.com/preview2005/gmsurvey_players.html

Hamilton is a real good player. I'd put him on the 2nd tier of star players, maybe on a level like Michael Redd. He's great at what he does, but most would agree that a Kobe or Wade simply more complete all-around players and ranked accordingly so by just about everyone and their mothers.

Objectively? So every NBA analyst, writer, and reporter have just been clouded by dunks and highlight reels from Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade, while you, a Pistons fan (who's opinion may be viewed by many here in the past as... a bit slanted) have seen through it all?

John Hollinger's PER ratings puts Kobe and Wade as #1 and #2 for Shooting Guards. Rip is #12. That may be an artificial statistic, but since you wanted to talk stats, we have that figure which takes into account "all of a player's statistical contributions -- points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, missed shots, turnovers and fouls."

Even a NBA General Manager's vote put Kobe and Wade as the best SG's in the game.

http://www.nba.com/preview2005/gmsurvey_players.html

Hamilton is a real good player. I'd put him on the 2nd tier of star players, maybe on a level like Michael Redd. He's great at what he does, but most would agree that a Kobe or Wade simply more complete all-around players and ranked accordingly so by just about everyone and their mothers.

So pure stats make one player better than another? They're a measuring stick sure, but I'd take Rip Hamilton in a clutch situation over Wade. Perhaps you saw him curl off a screen and hit that jumper over Boston with 2 seconds left earlier this season? He's made similar shots in the playoffs, most memorably against Indiana (in Artests' mug). This confidence comes from having done it all the way to the Finals.

He has more game knowledge than either Wade or Bryant (Bryant proved that in '04 when he could not adapt and make his teamates better when Prince was smothering him). He also seems to be more durable than say, Wade, who strained his rib during a crucial playoff game.

There's no question that either Hamilton or Redd would average as many points, though not as flashy, had they played with Shaq, or if they were on a losing team (like Kobe) and they jacked up 35 shots a game.

Using your own chart, I'd say that the gap between #2 and #12 is not that far...

So pure stats make one player better than another? They're a measuring stick sure, but I'd take Rip Hamilton in a clutch situation over Wade. Perhaps you saw him curl off a screen and hit that jumper over Boston with 2 seconds left earlier this season? He's made similar shots in the playoffs, most memorably against Indiana (in Artests' mug). This confidence comes from having done it all the way to the Finals.

Huh? You're the one that was using numbers as proof that Hamilton was Bryant and Wade's equal. While I would take Rip over Wade in a clutch situation, I'd say the majority of people would take Kobe over anyone else.

He has more game knowledge than either Wade or Bryant (Bryant proved that in '04 when he could not adapt and make his teamates better when Prince was smothering him). He also seems to be more durable than say, Wade, who strained his rib during a crucial playoff game.

How do you figure Hamilton has more "game knowledge?" That's rather arbitrary. So if Kobe couldn't adapt is a proof of his weakness, where in Rip's game has he needed to do so? Or even Wade? All 3 have had opportunities to play with great players and great coaches. Wade is a bit lower because he's only in his 3rd year, but I'm not sure I would say Rip knows more about the game then a lot of players out there. That sounds like just an empty assumption.

There's no question that either Hamilton or Redd would average as many points, though not as flashy, had they played with Shaq, or if they were on a losing team (like Kobe) and they jacked up 35 shots a game.

Playing with Shaq didn't raise either Wade or Bryant's PPG, so why would it raise Hamilton's?

I love Rip Hamilton, he's a great player who I would love to have on my team if I were building one. And I would choose him over Kobe because I think I'd like a rapist-free team. But to suggest with a straight face that he is a better player than kobe or Wade is, well, ludicrous.

I love Rip Hamilton, he's a great player who I would love to have on my team if I were building one. And I would choose him over Kobe because I think I'd like a rapist-free team. But to suggest with a straight face that he is a better player than kobe or Wade is, well, ludicrous.

See, I'd want a team full of rapists.

See, I'd want a team full of rapists.

:lol:

See, I'd want a team full of rapists.
Always looking for ways to disagree with me... -ohbfrank-

I was actually thinking of your sig when I made my post. :lol:

I love Rip Hamilton, he's a great player who I would love to have on my team if I were building one. And I would choose him over Kobe because I think I'd like a rapist-free team. But to suggest with a straight face that he is a better player than kobe or Wade is, well, ludicrous.

couldn't have said it better myself.

I love Rip Hamilton, he's a great player who I would love to have on my team if I were building one. And I would choose him over Kobe because I think I'd like a rapist-free team. But to suggest with a straight face that he is a better player than kobe or Wade is, well, ludicrous.

Kobe was the victim. You are also a victim (of media propaganda).

Stan Van Gundy will step down as coach of the Heat later today.

Kobe was the victim. You are also a victim (of media propaganda).
I'm no victim of media propaganda, and Kobe surely isn't a victim either. :lol: One of my close friends worked on the case for the Eagle County DA. The dude's a rapist, just not a convicted rapist. But he's a Laker rapist, so *you* gotta love him and defend him. Doesn't mean I have to.

I'm no victim of media propaganda, and Kobe surely isn't a victim either. :lol: One of my close friends worked on the case for the Eagle County DA. The dude's a rapist, just not a convicted rapist. But he's a Laker rapist, so *you* gotta love him and defend him. Doesn't mean I have to.

No. Forced sex isn't rape if you are famous!

I'm no victim of media propaganda, and Kobe surely isn't a victim either. :lol: One of my close friends worked on the case for the Eagle County DA. The dude's a rapist, just not a convicted rapist. But he's a Laker rapist, so *you* gotta love him and defend him. Doesn't mean I have to.

Even if my own son or wife or mom worked for the Eagle County DA and they stopped the trial, I wouldn't call Kobe a rapist. Having a vested interest in the case does not equal guilt for the suspect.

So pure stats make one player better than another? They're a measuring stick sure, but I'd take Rip Hamilton in a clutch situation over Wade. Perhaps you saw him curl off a screen and hit that jumper over Boston with 2 seconds left earlier this season? He's made similar shots in the playoffs, most memorably against Indiana (in Artests' mug). This confidence comes from having done it all the way to the Finals.

He has more game knowledge than either Wade or Bryant (Bryant proved that in '04 when he could not adapt and make his teamates better when Prince was smothering him). He also seems to be more durable than say, Wade, who strained his rib during a crucial playoff game.

There's no question that either Hamilton or Redd would average as many points, though not as flashy, had they played with Shaq, or if they were on a losing team (like Kobe) and they jacked up 35 shots a game.

Using your own chart, I'd say that the gap between #2 and #12 is not that far...

RIP HAMILTON > GOD

Dear god, when did Pistons fans become more annoying than Laker fans? Do I need to read these threads more?

Even if my own son or wife or mom worked for the Eagle County DA and they stopped the trial, I wouldn't call Kobe a rapist. Having a vested interest in the case does not equal guilt for the suspect.

"Yeah, but come on, look at the guy" = guilt, though, right?

Even if my own son or wife or mom worked for the Eagle County DA and they stopped the trial, I wouldn't call Kobe a rapist. Having a vested interest in the case does not equal guilt for the suspect.
Well, then, OJ is not a murderer. Yay for you!

FWIW, my friend didn't have any "vested interest" other than trying to put guilty people in jail. She worked on the case, met the real victim (hint, not Kobe), and in the course of working on the case was convinced that Kobe was a rapist. I trust her, and that was good enough for me. It may not be good enough to send him to jail, but just like I think it's ok to call OJ a murderer, I think it's ok to call Kobe a rapist.

You do realize Kobe has not been exonerated, he has not been found innocent, right? Presumed innocent until proven guilty is a court of law standard, it does not mean that it has to be a societal standard.

Well, then, OJ is not a murderer. Yay for you!

FWIW, my friend didn't have any "vested interest" other than trying to put guilty people in jail. She worked on the case, met the real victim (hint, not Kobe), and in the course of working on the case was convinced that Kobe was a rapist. I trust her, and that was good enough for me. It may not be good enough to send him to jail, but just like I think it's ok to call OJ a murderer, I think it's ok to call Kobe a rapist.

You do realize Kobe has not been exonerated, he has not been found innocent, right? Presumed innocent until proven guilty is a court of law standard, it does not mean that it has to be a societal standard.

So your female friend who met a female rape accuser was empathetic and that's what convinced you? OK? Give no reasons other than the fact that you "trust" a female friend, who you may or may not want to sex.

I do not think OJ is innocent, nor did I give any indication that I thought he was. You merely said that you had a "friend" who worked on the case and that was the reason you gave that Kobe was guilty. I am not basing my belief of Kobe's innocence on the trial ending, I base it on evidence and facts, something you should also try to do.

I base it on evidence and facts, something you should also try to do.

Or your undying love for Kobe & The Lakers. I'd say all 3 come in to play.

When even people who dislike Kobe as a person or a basketball player agree that he's a better player then Rip Hamilton, I think that's as "objective" as you're going to get :)

Funny that Riley takes over for Van Gundy right when Shaq comes back.

Funny that Riley takes over for Van Gundy right when Shaq comes back.

Headline in Miami newspapers in 3 weeks:

"Pat Riley, who took over the 11-10 Heat, has really turned this team around 180 degrees. The only game he has lost is the Christmas game against the Los Angeles Lakers".

So your female friend who met a female rape accuser was empathetic and that's what convinced you? OK? Give no reasons other than the fact that you "trust" a female friend, who you may or may not want to sex.

I do not think OJ is innocent, nor did I give any indication that I thought he was. You merely said that you had a "friend" who worked on the case and that was the reason you gave that Kobe was guilty. I am not basing my belief of Kobe's innocence on the trial ending, I base it on evidence and facts, something you should also try to do.
So now I think Kobe is gulity because you think I want to have sex with my friend? :whofart: :lol:

My friend is a lawyer, I have been friends with her for a number of years. As a lawyer, she is trained to objectively evaluate facts and law. That includes evaluating the credibility of witnesses. Because I have known her for quite some time, and also know her skills as a lawyer (I went law school with her), I do trust her judgment. She knows more than you or I about this case. If she tells me someone is guilty in a case she worked on, yes, I will trust her, I will believe her.

Don't you watch Law and Order? :) Sometimes, the DA's know someone is guilty yet can't prove it in a court of law. That is how it should be, we have a high standard of proof for a guilty verdict. But that doesn't mean that the guy who gets off is innocent, or that the DAs don't know the real deal.

You talk about facts and evidence. Hello, Bueller! There was no trial, there is no "evidence" per se. You earlier accused me of buying into media propaganda yet you don't seem to realize that you're doing the same thing, since the media is your sole source of evidence. FWIW, I have paid attention to this case, hell, I did some work on it myself when I clerked for a judge.

The evidence as has been published is inconclusive, because ultimately it comes down to a he said she said, and conclusive evidence of that is difficult. I do know the evidence, quite well. I don't see how the evidence on paper can make you so sure Kobe is innocent. Similarly, I don't know how the evidence on paper could make someone so sure he was guilty. In a he said she said case, that's virutally impossible to do. What I do know is that in he said she said cases, the credibility of the witnesses is paramount. Now, on paper, the defense did a good job of casting doubt on the woman's credibility. But that doesn't mean she lied, as you seem to assume, it just means that in court of law, the defense would be able to introduce evidence that would cast some doubt on her testimony, and given the high standard of proof, that doubt would be enough to get Kobe off. And if the sole judge is her credibility, well, I'll trust my friend's judgment on that.

Apparently ron's plan worked, the pacers are going to deactivate artest and seek a trade:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051212/SPORTS04/512120435

dave

I'm sure Thomas will find some way to make him a Knick.

RIP HAMILTON > GOD

Dear god, when did this Pistons fan become more annoying than Laker fans? Do I need to read these threads more?

FYP

Apparently ron's plan worked, the pacers are going to deactivate artest and seek a trade:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051212/SPORTS04/512120435

dave
:lol: Team stands by his side all of last year, and Captain Ron responds like this. That's comedy. Not a surprise after seeing his interview on HBO. He makes T.O. look like a saint in comparison when it comes to being a team player (although I wasn't shocked to see him lash out at (p)Rick Carlisle for stifling him on offense - that was inevitable).

I'm convinced one day in the next 10 years the NY Times headline will read "former NBA great found dead in Queensbridge alley"

I'm sure Thomas will find some way to make him a Knick.
You think David Stern wants any part of that?:

"Everyone in New York knows what the Knicks need: me. They should’ve drafted me when they had the chance. They probably got scared off because I hang in the projects in the off-season."

LurkerDan, did your friend interview Kobe at all for the case?

I'm sure Thomas will find some way to make him a Knick.

If the Pacers have to take Malik Rose, they would probably want Channing Frye in the trade.

LurkerDan, did your friend interview Kobe at all for the case?
I have no idea, but probably not. She probably did not interview the victim either. I have never asked her exactly what she did on the case. I know she worked on it, I believe it was just about all she worked on, but I felt no need to ask her precise details about the prosecution's case.

I have no idea, but probably not. She probably did not interview the victim either. I have never asked her exactly what she did on the case. I know she worked on it, I believe it was just about all she worked on, but I felt no need to ask her precise details about the prosecution's case.

Did she also partake in wearing the Kobe hangmen shirts like her colleagues did?

Did she also partake in wearing the Kobe hangmen shirts like her colleagues did?
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Nor do I care. You are hell bent on proving something to me that you won't be able to. The best you can hope to do is discredit me, and frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about whether I have any credit. :lol:

I made an off the cuff remark that I would like any team I own to be rapist free, meaning Kobe doesn't get a spot on my team. Luckily for Kobe, there are people like you who like to believe he isn't a rapist. Who gives a fuck, except the Lakers fans who feel the need to press his innocence wherever he's accused. Give it up, you have made up your mind, there's not a damn thing I could say that will change your mind, and there's not a damn thing you could say (other than I believe my friend because I want to have sex with her :lol: ) that will change mine. You really need to get used to people calling Kobe a rapist, because it's going to happen over and over.

My point is that, your friend is not the most objective person. The entity that pays her bills has an incentive to win the case. She has an incentive to win the case. She didn't even interview the accuser, how could she be so sure that she is telling the truth? She didn't get any information from the suspect in the case. You are basing your main belief in something that seems very one-sided here.

PS: The only way we can tell if you do not want to have relations with said friend is if you post pics.

My point is that, your friend is not the most objective person. The entity that pays her bills has an incentive to win the case. She has an incentive to win the case. She didn't even interview the accuser, how could she be so sure that she is telling the truth? She didn't get any information from the suspect in the case. You are basing your main belief in something that seems very one-sided here.

PS: The only way we can tell if you do not want to have relations with said friend is if you post pics.
You really have no idea what prosecutors do, do you? Or what lawyers do in general? We are trained to be objective, to be able to argue both sides of any case. Furthermore, prosecutors have an additional obligation, a constitutional obligation, to uphold the law. And because my friend didn't actually do the interviews she can't have a valid opinion based on facts she has seen and the people she has met? Only the one actually doing the interviews gets to have that? -screwy-

In your blind love for Kobe, I don't think you realize how offensive what you just stated is. It is one thing to state that they are wrong on a particular case, that you think someone was innocent. But it's an entirely different thing to say their actions are motivated by something other than the desire to put a guilty man in jail.

Now, you apparently wish to impugn the motives of the Eagle County DA and my friend; you imply, hell you openly state, that their incentives were something other than their belief in Kobe's guilt. That's where this "debate" ends, because at that point I really don't give a flying fuck about what you think. Just realize that is what you are doing, that you are stating that a prosecutor (including a close friend of mine), whose job it is to objectively evaluate the evidence and put guilty people in jail and let innocent people go free, threw all of that out the window because of some desire to put Kobe in jail, regardless of whether they believed he did it? Radiculos.

I prefer to have more faith in the integrity of the legal system, and especially in the integrity of people I am close to.

OK, LurkerDan, we will agree to both end the Kobe/Eagle discussion now, since nothing good can come out of it. Sorry if I have offended or seemed to have questioned the integrity of you or your friend. I apologize.

I"m hoping Artest doesn't go to the Knicks, unless it's some sort of three-way deal...i can't think of anyone on that team we could get for him to be worth it

I"m hoping the trade for Peja works out with Sacramento

OK, LurkerDan, we will agree to both end the Kobe/Eagle discussion now, since nothing good can come out of it. Sorry if I have offended or seemed to have questioned the integrity of you or your friend. I apologize.


No, no, don't agree to end it, keep going. I like watching Laker fans make asses of themselves. :)

No, no, don't agree to end it, keep going. I like watching Laker fans make asses of themselves. :)

Why don't you just look in the mirror.

Scorcho is a Lakers fan? -eek- -eek-

OK, LurkerDan, we will agree to both end the Kobe/Eagle discussion now, since nothing good can come out of it. Sorry if I have offended or seemed to have questioned the integrity of you or your friend. I apologize.
I appreciate that, thanks.

Scorcho is a Lakers fan? -eek- -eek-

Yes, everyone in the Lakers' thread knows it. He probably has posted more in Lakers threads than any other member. He talks about the Lakers 99% more than he does his second favorite team, the Blazers. :)

He's not a Lakers fan. He just has to have something to hate on since his team is filled with thugs and criminals. Oh wait...

He's not a Lakers fan. He just has to have something to hate on since his team is filled with thugs and criminals. Oh wait...

And this is another reason while I'd rather have Rip than Kobe. Kobe's whole rape thing makes BBall fans talk more about legalities than basketball...

Back on topic, I never said Rip was BETTER than Kobe I said that he would average as much if he played with Shaq or jacked up 36 shots per game. You all like to accuse me of being annoying or slanted yet you constantly twist what I say to make me look stupid...

That's why I love you guys. Very similar to liberals - if someone disagrees with your group-think than you just slander the person with the opposite view.

I laid out the facts in why they are 'comparable players' and I think I did it well. Where are the logical responses? I give head to head stats and you say 'this guy is out of his mind!'. Typical...

RIP HAMILTON > GOD

Dear god, when did Pistons fans become more annoying than Laker fans? Do I need to read these threads more?

Perfect example of this great discussion. I give facts, I get ridiculed. Anyone want to have a discussion or should we call names?

That's why I love you guys. Very similar to liberals - if someone disagrees with your group-think than you just slander the person with the opposite view.

Could we please leave the partisan bs to the politics forum?

Here's "facts". The sporting news ranks the top 50 players. Here's what they said about #8 (Kobe)
Based on early returns, Phil-Kobe Act II is going to be good for Kobe. His talent and drive are unsurpassed, but to return to our top five, Kobe has to take the Lakers into late May.
And Rip (tied for #30 with Tayshaun):
OK, we give up on trying to decide who's better. Each brings something different to the Pistons. "Rip" Hamilton is a tireless player whose movement without the ball and shooting are keys to the team's halfcourt offense. With his gangly body, Prince defends every position except the point and is an effective scorer who can shoot the 3 and drive to the basket.
Those "facts" are every bit as useful as stats. Stas don't define the game. The reason you get ridiculed is because it's ridiculous to suggest that Rip is as good a player as Kobe.

Could we please leave the partisan bs to the politics forum?

I'm an independant, just making an observation on your behavior compared to my life experiences. Don't be so touchy...

Here's "facts". The sporting news ranks the top 50 players. Here's what they said about #8 (Kobe)

And Rip (tied for #30 with Tayshaun):

Those "facts" are every bit as useful as stats. Stas don't define the game. The reason you get ridiculed is because it's ridiculous to suggest that Rip is as good a player as Kobe.

And these rankings are based on opinions of people who watch basketball like you and I. And? This is not definitive and just because you say it's ridiculous doesn't prove anything.

I showed you the head to head stats and see nothing that indicates that Bryant is nothing more than another 20+ point scoring guard. Kobe is a selfish player who destroyed one of the best teams in NBA history based on his own selfish needs. Now he continues to be selfish by all accounts. He's better why?

And these rankings are based on opinions of people who watch basketball like you and I. And? This is not definitive and just because you say it's ridiculous doesn't prove anything.

I showed you the head to head stats and see nothing that indicates that Bryant is nothing more than another 20+ point scoring guard. Kobe is a selfish player who destroyed one of the best teams in NBA history based on his own selfish needs. Now he continues to be selfish by all accounts. He's better why?

A Pistons fan, of all people, should be the last one that uses "head to head" statistics as any indication of anything, considering how much their fans like to boast about being a team versus individual play. You tried to shrug off stats when I introduced the Player Efficiency Rating earlier, and now you return back to stats as a demonstration of Rip and Kobe's equality. A head to head matchup will never be proof of one player's abilities over another. Especially when one of the two, in this case Kobe, was the focal point of a team's defense and consistantly double teamed.

So do you want to use stats, or not? Ignoring stats for a second, even those who dislike Kobe Bryant recognize that he's a more skilled player just by watching him. He's simply a better all around player, and analysts and former players all seem to agree with that consensus. He's a better defender then Rip, and has a far greater arsenal on the offensive end then Rip. Not just dunks and flashy shots, but his ability to create his own shot, fadeaways, ball fakes, handling skills, and ability to drive in the lane and finish. He's simply a more complete player to me.

Also, I hope you knock Shaq down a notch for being selfish as well.

EDIT: I remember a rant from Stephen A. Smith early in the season when the Knicks and Lakers played about Stephon Marbury claiming he was the best PG in the game. Smith basically said there's a difference between claims from an invidiual versus someone who is universally acknowledged to be a great player by others. I'm not using this to compare Rip to Starbury, but simply saying that there's a reason why Kobe Bryant has been recognized by so many involved in basketball as being one of the Top 5 Shooting Guards in the league. Him being voted to the All NBA 3rd Team, despite all that's happened in the past, is a testement to that from his peers. Wade's rising success is similair.

I hate Kobe Bryant, and I still think he's 3 times better than Rip. This conversation is ridiculous and retarded. Of course Kobe is better.

Back on topic, I never said Rip was BETTER than Kobe I said that he would average as much if he played with Shaq or jacked up 36 shots per game.

Nope, he would not average as much (in any category), if he played with Shaq.

And these rankings are based on opinions of people who watch basketball like you and I. And? This is not definitive and just because you say it's ridiculous doesn't prove anything.

I showed you the head to head stats and see nothing that indicates that Bryant is nothing more than another 20+ point scoring guard. Kobe is a selfish player who destroyed one of the best teams in NBA history based on his own selfish needs. Now he continues to be selfish by all accounts. He's better why?
I think they base them either on the votes of GM's. AT the very least it is based in part on feedback from GM's.

You are mixing apples and oranges, arguing stats and then arguing team play. As I have told you, I'd take Rip over Kobe, but...

Ah, you know what, this is absurd. I'm taking the fish hook out of my mou