I think Vick is the 3rd best QB in the NFL, after Brady and Manning. In the last 2+ years the Falcons are 15-6 with him, 1-11 without him, or very close to it.
wildcatlh
09-13-05, 01:09 PM
Incredibly overrated as a QB?
Look, he can run, and he's incredible at getting out of sacks and making something out of nothing. But look at his passing (not running) numbers over the past few years. Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington, fuck, even Jay Fiedler's numbers are as good or better.
He might get that arm one day, he might learn how to be an NFL quarterback. As of now, he's nowhere near the top 5 QBs in the league.
Jeremy517
09-13-05, 01:09 PM
He had the 21st best quarterback rating last year, was 27th in percentage completed, and was 26th in passing yards. He is obviously a great scrambler, but he's not a good quarterback.
joshd2012
09-13-05, 01:11 PM
Being a quarterback is more than just throwing a ball. While his passer rating is average at best, his ability to make plays when any other quarterback would be sacked makes him unique in the league. He is a true leader of his team. And as you pointed out, he makes a real difference. He is a top quarterback in the league.
And yes, I am biased. GO HOKIES!
Jeremy517
09-13-05, 01:15 PM
In 2004, Atlanta had the #1 rushing offense in the NFL by a big margin, yet they were only the #20 overall offense.
Mordred
09-13-05, 01:26 PM
Incredibly overrated as a QB?
Look, he can run, and he's incredible at getting out of sacks and making something out of nothing. But look at his passing (not running) numbers over the past few years. Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington, fuck, even Jay Fiedler's numbers are as good or better.
He might get that arm one day, he might learn how to be an NFL quarterback. As of now, he's nowhere near the top 5 QBs in the league.I think if Rush Limbaugh had made his comments about Vick instead of McNabb he might still be working on Sundays.
das Monkey
09-13-05, 01:26 PM
Quarterback is about leading the team down the field, not just being a great passer. Whatever gets the job done is what makes a great QB. If that means running, great. Passing? Great. Not throwing picks in key situations? Great. Judging Vick by passing stats alone is stupid. If he runs a perfect bootleg setup that lets Dunn eat up 30 yards down the middle of the field, that's just as useful as throwing the pass. The threat of the Vick run is a huge reason they were #1 in rushing last year.
That said, I'd say he's Top 10, but he still has a lot of growth ahead of him. He has a rocket arm, but his accuracy struggles. I'd rather have Vick over most of the QBs in the league with better passer ratings, but even with his running ability, he's not near Brady or Manning and still behind guys like McNabb and Culpepper.
das
mgbfan
09-13-05, 01:28 PM
Vick's a decent little QB. Top 10 for sure. But he's also overrated. Fact is that he's just not a very good passer.
Somebody mentioned that they considered him third behind Brady and Manning. To place him above Culpepper and McNabb is a little absurd, IMHO. Culpepper set an NFL record for yards last year and McNabb has taken his team to the NFCC four years running, with one Super Bowl. Vick has done nothing to match those accomplisments.
Maxflier
09-13-05, 01:29 PM
Great runner, average quarterback.
das Monkey
09-13-05, 01:33 PM
• mgbfan •
McNabb has taken his team to the NFCC four years running, with one Super Bowl. Vick has done nothing to match those accomplisments.
To be fair, he was hurt one year, single-handedly beat Green Bay at Lamb(ert) Field another, and took his team to the NFCC in the third. And don't tell me that (sans QB) the Falcons were close to as good as the Eagles any of those years. Hey, I'd rather have McNabb too, but Vick's no slouch. I mean, look at the guy's receiver corps before criticizing him too much. :)
das
Jeremy517
09-13-05, 01:37 PM
Quarterback is about leading the team down the field, not just being a great passer. Whatever gets the job done is what makes a great QB. If that means running, great. Passing? Great. Not throwing picks in key situations? Great.
They were only in the middle of the pack in terms scoring offense, though, and only seven QBs threw INTs at a higher percentage than Vick.
That being said, if I was starting a team now, I'd take him fifth (behind Brady, Manning, McNabb, and Culpepper) and hope he learns to throw the ball better. Give Vick better receivers and he would probably have better stats.
das Monkey
09-13-05, 01:43 PM
• Jeremy517 •
They were only in the middle of the pack in terms scoring offense, though, and only seven QBs threw INTs at a higher percentage than Vick.
The comment you quoted was about QBs in general, not Vick specifically. Vick has a lot of room for growth. I just think judging QBs by passing stats alone makes no sense. A great QB gets the job done however he can.
das
Josh H
09-13-05, 01:55 PM
Top 5.
Few QBs have as much an impact on the game and the other teams game plan as Vick.
wildcatlh
09-13-05, 01:59 PM
Vick does have a lot of room for growth as a passer. But at the same time, this is his 5th year in the league (well, 4 and a quarter if you count the injury year) and it's time to see this growth. If it doesn't happen this year or next year it's never going to happen.
das Monkey
09-13-05, 02:11 PM
I agree. This is the big test year for him. Everything was chaos in his early years, with injury and changing offenses. Now things are stable, and with the exception of having below average receivers, there aren't too many excuses for this season. He needs to shine now.
das
cleaver
09-13-05, 02:11 PM
Somebody mentioned that they considered him third behind Brady and Manning. To place him above Culpepper and McNabb is a little absurd, IMHO. Culpepper set an NFL record for yards last year and McNabb has taken his team to the NFCC four years running, with one Super Bowl. Vick has done nothing to match those accomplisments.
The Vikings won games with Frerotte and the Eagles with AJ Feeley and Koy Detmer over the years. Vick goes down, they can't score and their defense can't get off the field. In the only 2 seasons where Vick has taken more than half the snaps, Atlanta became the 1st team to win a playoff game in Lambeau and they made the NFC Championship game. Culpepper has been to the NFC Championship game (his 1st season starting) but that squad was stacked and he was a big reason they lost 42-0 to the Giants. I believe Vick has either the top 2 or 2 of the top 3 rushing totals for QBs since the merger, but I could be wrong. I really soured on McNabb since the Super Bowl. He lost the game for the Eagles and has since lost control of his team.
twikoff
09-13-05, 02:15 PM
vick makes this team win
this is a .500 team without him
and only slightly better with a good passing qb
this offense is built around him, and is not designed for him to put up huge passing yards
its designed for the falcons to win.. and they do
Terrell
09-13-05, 02:19 PM
well, 4 and a quarter if you count the injury year
He's 28-12 as a starter. That's how good.
well, 4 and a quarter if you count the injury year
Actually, it's his 3rd and a quarter season of playing. The fact is he sat behind Chris Chandler his first year and hardly played.
Look, his first full year starting he worked in the Dan Reeve's offense, which is about as vanilla as you can get. He thens gets injured and only plays 4 games his second full season as a starter. Then after that, his QB coach, head coach, and entire offense is fired, and in comes an entirely new staff with one of the most complicated offenses to run in terms of reads, progressions, and throws. An offense that Vick has never seen before. Couple that with the fact that Vick has one of the worst pass blocking OLs in the league, and below average WRs, you can see he doesn't have the guns around him. I keep belaboring this point, but look at how many times he was sacked last year. The Falcons were at or near the bottom of the league in giving up sacks. Most of those sacks came when he was in the pocket. They're terrible. His WRs are at best mediocre, and at worst below average. I find it funny that he has no trouble throwing the ball to Algee Crumpler no matter where he is on the field. It's also strange that he is deadly accurate on the move, but not so much in the pocket. He doesn't trust his OL. Who can blame him.
Having said that, there's always room for improvement. But as Madden said last night, when Atlanta's receivers and line improve in the areas where they are weakest, so will Vick.
But those of you expecting Vick to be a Peyton Manning clone who drops back all the time, and throws 50 times a game for 400 yards, forget it. He's not going to be that, ever. The guy just wins, and in the end that's the most important thing. If they aren't winning, he usually finds a way.
That's my opinion. But certainly he can get better. But he can't do it all himself.
this is a .500 team without him
In fact, they're even worse than that without him. His injury year, the Falcons went 2-10. When he came back, they went 3-1. But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment.
Terrell
09-13-05, 02:26 PM
McNabb has taken his team to the NFCC four years running
By the way, McNabb wasn't always as good as he is now. It took him years to become the QB he is today. He used to run a lot as well in his early years, and was nowhere near the passer he is today. Then again, he can say he has Terrell Owens. Who's Vick got, Michael Jenkins. See my point. Then again, McNabb wasn't too hot either last night.
Red Dog
09-13-05, 02:50 PM
I'd rather have Vick over most of the QBs in the league with better passer ratings, but even with his running ability, he's not near Brady or Manning and still behind guys like McNabb and Culpepper.
das
Exactly. That is how I would measure it. Except for Brady, Manning, McNabb, or Culpepper, I cannot name a QB I would rather have leading my team more than Vick.
Given the shaky line and lousy WRs, I think Vick has done an excellent job.
Furthermore, there is no player in the NFL that ignites a home crowd like Vick does. The Georgia Dome was a morgue before he got there. I don't think he is given enough credit for this.
gmal2003
09-13-05, 03:04 PM
As many have already mentioned, stats can be very misleading. Sure, Vick needs to improve on his passing skills, but his team wins when he's out there. When he's out, they lose. Its really that simple as to how effective he is. Id place him probably in the 4-6 range in terms of top quaterbacks (Behind Brady, Manning, and McNabb and amongst the ranks of Culpepper and Favre). His accuracy must improve before he can ever reach top QB status. As soon as it does, he'll be the best in the game. Depending what team I have to work with (types of offensive players, coaching style etc..) he'd be the first QB for my team.
fumanstan
09-13-05, 03:12 PM
Above Average. Not Top 5, but Top 10 easily.
kvrdave
09-13-05, 05:49 PM
He changes the game. I dislike when you hear analysts talk about the "intangibles" a guy brings, but it definately applies to Vick. So long as he keeps the herpes under control, he is one tough QB.
Dabaomb
09-13-05, 07:26 PM
He changes the game. I dislike when you hear analysts talk about the "intangibles" a guy brings, but it definately applies to Vick. So long as he keeps the herpes under control, he is one tough QB.
Ron Mexico sucks!!!
He fumbles and loses you 2 fantasy points and then he kneels 3 times at the end of the game :mad:
Both times I was ahead of Kvrdave in fantasy football and both times I lost the lead to lose by 0.12 points :mad:
Terrell
09-13-05, 08:12 PM
So long as he keeps the herpes under control, he is one tough QB.
Do we even have a clue as to whether that is true, or are we just going by some anonymous woman who claims he gave it to her? Cause if I have to go on the word of a groupie, whose probably had sex with umpteen players, then I might have reason to be skeptical. Not that I care to know Vick's personal business.
ToddSm66
09-13-05, 09:28 PM
Kordell Stewart, Part Deux.
Terrell
09-13-05, 09:29 PM
Stewart can't even tote Vick's jock! But, there are 11 completely clueless people that voted in this poll. :)
I'd say Vick has to improve a little just to get up to the same level as a Kordell Stewart.
Incredibly overrated.
NCMojo
09-13-05, 09:59 PM
Michael Vick could be a great quarterback... but not in that stupid West Coast offense. Whose idea was it to stick the greatest scrambling quarterback of all time in a dink and dump offense? Vick is at his best when he is improvising on the run... not when he sticks back in the pocket and tries to hit the 10 yard out.
DVDHO
09-13-05, 10:05 PM
Overrated in the worst way,the man goes to the pro-bowl over Farve last year who had 30 TDs and close to 4000 yards and get's an MVP vote,that's the main reason I hate the man because he is pure hype,he throw's for 2 picks and fumbles twice and gets sacked 3 times but if he runs for it on 3rd at 28 and gets the first down he is an mvp/pro-bowler.
Example last night when playing the Eagles he hurt his team more then helped them with all them turnovers,yet he is the reason they won when it was there run game(Dunn mostly)and there Defence won that game,that's takeing credit away from his teamates.
The QBs job is to run a team by throwing,running and scrambling NOT JUST running and scrambling,if Vick wins anything it will because of that Defence he has.
Jericho
09-13-05, 10:20 PM
Incredibly overrated as a QB?
Look, he can run, and he's incredible at getting out of sacks and making something out of nothing. But look at his passing (not running) numbers over the past few years. Kyle Boller, Joey Harrington, fuck, even Jay Fiedler's numbers are as good or better.
He might get that arm one day, he might learn how to be an NFL quarterback. As of now, he's nowhere near the top 5 QBs in the league.
True, he is a terrible passer. Pretty much right at the bottom of the NFL. Of course he's such a great runner, he's much more valuable and much more effective than the likes of Boller and so forth. I tend to agree where you rank him.
Some points that can't be overlooked. Atlanta has an excellent running attack using Alex Gibb's schemes originating from Denver. Atlanta may be the new Denver, allowing anyone to gain 1000 yards. And Atlanta has a pretty good defense, something else often overlooked. These factors are HUGE in why Atlanta wins. Obviously a good team can win despite QB play, which is why Baltimore has been above average even with Boller, why Quincy Carter got Dallas to 11-5, and why Jay Fiedler has one of the best W-L records for a starter.
Here's my concern about Vick. People expect him to eventually become a good passer. I doubt it will happen. Few QBs really make huge strides as a passer after so many years. And if it does not happen, Atlanta can be stopped. Certain teams have historically kept Vick in check. Tampa and Philly for example. As long as there is one team in the league that can stop Vick's running, Atlanta can't win without a passing attack.
RyoHazuki
09-13-05, 10:42 PM
Overrated. He's a good QB. I'd put im in the top 15 in the league, but he needs to learn how to play the game. The reason he's so succesful with running is that a QB isn't meant to run. WR are running down the field, linemen are tangled up, and the QB has an open lane. Since most QBs are not runners, they can't do much with this but Vick has the running ability to take the ball 10-15 yards. The Falcons will never win an NFC title or the Superbowl until Vick can play an entire game without running more than 5 times and without fumbling.
Dead
09-14-05, 08:30 AM
I think Vick is the 3rd best QB in the NFL, after Brady and Manning.
I'd be more likely to agree if you said that Vick was the 3rd best athlete in the NFL than the 3rd best QB. He's a great runner and seems to have leadership skills, if he can improve his spotty passing, then he can become one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Until he does so, he is simply above average.
LurkerDan
09-14-05, 11:31 AM
These factors are HUGE in why Atlanta wins. Obviously a good team can win despite QB play, which is why Baltimore has been above average even with Boller, why Quincy Carter got Dallas to 11-5, and why Jay Fiedler has one of the best W-L records for a starter.
That explanation fails to account for Atlanta's record with and without Vick. If it was mostly due to their running game and defense, and Vick was just a Boller/Carter/Fiedler with better wheels, then why does Atlanta win when he plays and suck when he doesn't play?
das Monkey
09-14-05, 11:40 AM
• LurkerDan •
That explanation fails to account for Atlanta's record with and without Vick. If it was mostly due to their running game and defense, and Vick was just a Boller/Carter/Fiedler with better wheels, then why does Atlanta win when he plays and suck when he doesn't play?
Because their running game is heavily affected by his bootleg and scrambling threat, but I already said that. :)
das
mgbfan
09-14-05, 12:14 PM
Hey, I'd rather have McNabb too, but Vick's no slouch.
Never said he was - in fact, I said he was a top-10 QB. But he's not yet in the same league as Manning, Culpepper, Brady, McNabb.
I'd say Vick has to improve a little just to get up to the same level as a Kordell Stewart.
Wow - I did not see that coming. Interesting post. I'm on the Vick-is-overrated side, but even I would never have imagined this comparison.
mgbfan
09-14-05, 12:25 PM
Here's my concern about Vick. People expect him to eventually become a good passer. I doubt it will happen. Few QBs really make huge strides as a passer after so many years.
It's possible he'll improve. The problem will be that if his passing improves, it's just as likely his running threat will diminish. Guys tend to lose a little of that burst with age (Barry Sanders excepted). So he's going to HAVE to improve as a passer just to compensate for whatever he'll lose in the running game.
What Falcon fans have to hope for is that his passing comes around before his running starts to diminish. If that happens, he could have a few dangerous years. But that's a big "if."
LurkerDan
09-14-05, 01:27 PM
Because their running game is heavily affected by his bootleg and scrambling threat, but I already said that. :)
das
Sure, of course. But that is part of the package he brings as a QB, and it shows that the team's success IS dependent on him. He is NOT just a Boller/Carter/Fiedler with better wheels, he's a completely different player.
Mr. Cinema
09-14-05, 02:35 PM
Best overall QB, most dangerous offensive player in the league. The guy does things no one else can do. And he does have a very strong arm. How would his numbers be if he had Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley to throw to????
Quake1028
09-14-05, 11:34 PM
It goes like this:
1.Brady
1a.Manning
3.McNabb
4.Culpepper
5.Vick
chrisih8u
09-14-05, 11:36 PM
It goes like this:
1.Brady
1a.Manning
3.McNabb
4.Culpepper
5.Vick
:up: I agree completely. :)
mgbfan
09-14-05, 11:43 PM
Best overall QB,
Not a chance.
most dangerous offensive player in the league.
Nope. That's still Randy Moss.
The guy does things no one else can do.
So?
And he does have a very strong arm.
What good is a strong arm if it's not accurate?
How would his numbers be if he had Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley to throw to????
We don't know. Have you considered that perhaps Reggie Wayne and Brandon Stokley really aren't Pro-Bowl-caliber receivers? Have you considered that just maybe it's Manning who makes them look like superstars?
wmansir
09-15-05, 04:12 AM
Just like you can't judge a QB just by his passing stats, you also can't leave out Vick's tendency to miss games because of injuries. Often injuries can be written off as bad luck, but the very qualities that make Vick more than a passing QB make him more injury prone, and his performance more sensitive to injuries. His 2003 leg injury occurred when he was scrambling outside the pocket, and a "drop back and shoot" QB probably could have returned a few weeks sooner.
When he's healthy I say Vick is Top 5 material, but I would put him as just above average at this point in his career.
Jericho
09-15-05, 04:46 AM
That explanation fails to account for Atlanta's record with and without Vick. If it was mostly due to their running game and defense, and Vick was just a Boller/Carter/Fiedler with better wheels, then why does Atlanta win when he plays and suck when he doesn't play?
Well for one, Alex Gibbs has only been in Atlanta one year. Plus, the defense has gotten better each year, including the additions of people like Rod Coleman and D'Aneglo Hall last year. So Atlanta has never played without Vick recently. Besides, how a team does without a player for a few games can be misleading. Philadelphia lost Donovan McNabb a few years back and replaced him with eventually AJ Feeley. Feeley won all but one game. Does that mean McNabb's not good and Feeley is good? Time certainly hasn't upheld that theory.
Jericho
09-15-05, 04:51 AM
Best overall QB, most dangerous offensive player in the league. The guy does things no one else can do. And he does have a very strong arm. How would his numbers be if he had Harrison, Wayne, and Stokley to throw to????
Here's the funny thing. Atlanta has used three straight number ones one wideouts. One to trade for Peerless Price and two on Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Not to mention they DO have a top tight end in Alge Crumpler. Vick should have plenty of talent to throw to. Of course Price is gone now, but either Atlanta's management has been terrible in this area or Vick's passing makes these player look worse than they are. Or both. To be fair, Jenkins and White are still quite young, so they should improve. But neither has made a Boldin or Clayton like impact.
Jericho
09-15-05, 04:52 AM
What good is a strong arm if it's not accurate?
It's Kyle Boller
ToddSm66
09-15-05, 09:40 AM
Here's the funny thing. Atlanta has used three straight number ones one wideouts. One to trade for Peerless Price and two on Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Not to mention they DO have a top tight end in Alge Crumpler. Vick should have plenty of talent to throw to. Of course Price is gone now, but either Atlanta's management has been terrible in this area or Vick's passing makes these player look worse than they are. Or both. To be fair, Jenkins and White are still quite young, so they should improve. But neither has made a Boldin or Clayton like impact.
That's the funny thing with Peerless Price...
His first year in Atlanta, Vick got injured and missed the year. Price had 64 catches for 838 yards.
The next year, Vick comes back and plays the whole year. Price has 45 catches for 575 yards.
twikoff
09-15-05, 10:00 AM
That's the funny thing with Peerless Price...
His first year in Atlanta, Vick got injured and missed the year. Price had 64 catches for 838 yards.
The next year, Vick comes back and plays the whole year. Price has 45 catches for 575 yards.
price is a route receiver
he can run a preset route, and if the ball is put where its suppose to be.. he can catch it
vick is a scrambler, and will not always be in position to throw to the exact route that was drawn up.. Price can't adjust to the play and to the ball.
Fenerin is the best player that Atlanta has, at doing this.. But he doesnt have the overall talent of a great receiver..
Hopefully Roddy will be able to make these adjustments
Jericho
09-15-05, 11:08 AM
price is a route receiver
he can run a preset route, and if the ball is put where its suppose to be.. he can catch it
vick is a scrambler, and will not always be in position to throw to the exact route that was drawn up.. Price can't adjust to the play and to the ball.
Fenerin is the best player that Atlanta has, at doing this.. But he doesnt have the overall talent of a great receiver..
Hopefully Roddy will be able to make these adjustments
Well I don't know how true it is, but reading this makes Vick look worse, IMO. I know Vick tends to scramble, but how many plays are just where Vick freestyles some pass and how many are just poor passes from Vick. Most plays, be them passes or runs, are done as scripted. We may see a few highlights of the busted plays, but they are the exceptions. Besides, when Vick scrambles, it's mainly a run and not a pass.
Not to mention, faulting Price for only being a route runner seems kinda odd. I mean, that's his job -- to run routes as told. If he freestyles, that's when bad things tend to happen. Should the play break down, a WR is expected to improvise a little, but it's hardly a difficult thing to do. It usually involves simply running back towards the QB. I find it hard to believe Price can't do this.
And if Vick isn't doing the play as it was drawn up, then how is anyone to know what they're supposed to do and where to go? If more than 1-2 plays a game are like this, the whole team would be in anarchy. The whole point of football and practice is to get everyone on the same page running the same play. Otherwise, the blocking breaks apart, the receivers cross each other up, and other crap happens.
lemieux66c
09-15-05, 12:21 PM
I'd probably put Vick in the 7-9 range among QB's. Definitely below Daunte, McNabb, Brady and Manning (McNair as well when healthy), but it's really hard to judge since so much of a QB's success is system based. Put Drew Bledsoe in the right system and he can throw for 3,500+ yards and 30+ TD's, something that is possible for him to do this year with Dallas, yet I would never say he is better than Brady although his stats may be better. Vick, in a passing oriented system, is almost worthless at this point in his career but when he has the freedom he is extremely dangerous. I'd probably put him around the Drew Brees, Carson Palmer (and a few others) echelon - right on the cusp of the elite yet not quite there yet. Not someone who I would pick to build a team around yet as he needs to learn to use the weapons around him. Price may not have been a #1 receiver but he was much better than his showing in Atlanta, however I would like to see how he performs in Dallas before I completely shoulder the blame on Vick.
Terrell
09-15-05, 01:34 PM
Price may not have been a #1 receiver but he was much better than his showing in Atlanta
Well, as someone who watched every Falcons game last year, I can tell you that at least last season, he was completely worthless. It was a bad move on Atlanta's part. Peerless has never been a really big time receiver. He had one truly great year with Buffalo, where Moulds got all the attention, thus opening up things for Price. So Atlanta foolishly thought he could be a #1 WR, even though he had never been one. He can't. He's not big enough nor strong enough to fight off the big corners in the NFL. He showed no ability to get open or get seperation on a consistent basis. He dropped many balls that were thrown to him. Not to mention he's nowhere near as fast as some think he is, so he couldn't stretch the field deep.
faulting Price for only being a route runner seems kinda odd. I mean, that's his job -- to run routes as told.
That's all well and good, but to anyone who watched the Falcons last year, Price was rarely open on a consistent basis. Everytime you'd look up and watch a replay, there would be someone all over him.
however I would like to see how he performs in Dallas before I completely shoulder the blame on Vick.
There's one big problem with the comparison. One, he was the #1 go to WR in Atlanta. He's not the #1 WR in Dallas. To make a fair comparison, you'd really need to see him as a #1 WR for another team. I have no doubt he could do better as the #2 guy. Who couldn't? Second wide receivers don't get anywhere near the attention that the top WR gets.
The problem for Atlanta is even if they made Price the #2 WR in the rotation, they didn't have anyone else good enough to open things up for Price in that position. To put it bluntly, the Altanta WRs are not good as a whole. They have some young guys in Jenkins and White who can improve and be good, but they really need an established guy to take the pressure off of Crumpler.
Some former player on Cold Pizza yesterday made a great observation. When Michael Vick is out of the pocket, he has a completion percentage well above 60%. He also has a very good percentage when throwing to Crumpler. However, when he's in the pocket or throwing to WRs, it's much lower. That's not exactly coincidence.
I've always said Vick needs to get more consistent with his throws. But until Atlanta greatly improves their pass protection and wide receivers, Vick's improvement will be minimal.
twikoff
09-15-05, 01:44 PM
lets give daunte a season without moss, and see where he really stands on the list...
Terrell
09-15-05, 03:25 PM
lets give daunte a season without moss, and see where he really stands on the list...
Good point. For that matter, take Owens away from McNabb, and let's see how things work out.
Red Dog
09-15-05, 03:28 PM
McNabb was a pretty damn good QB with crappy receivers around him for several seasons pre-Owens.
Terrell
09-15-05, 03:40 PM
McNabb was a pretty damn good QB with crappy receivers around him for several seasons pre-Owens.
Even his crappy receivers were better than Vick's, save for Crumpler. When Finneran is currently your best receiver, you're hurting. Jenkins will end up being better, but right now Finneran is their best. But point well taken.
But it also needs to be pointed out that for years, McNabb was a better runner than passer. He was very similar to Vick. He became a better passer after years of work. Vick wants to be better. That's the important thing. If a player genuinely wants to be better, and is willing to work, he'll get better assuming he has the ability. No question Vick has that. But Atlanta also has to address their weaknesses if they want to win it all.
Red Dog
09-15-05, 03:42 PM
Trash, Mitchell and Stinkston were pretty poor receivers. At best they were marginally better than what is in Atlanta. Plus McNabb didn't have the kind of running game that Atlanta has. He was able to elevate his game though. I think Vick will too, but I hope that he doesn't become a pocket passer like McNabb.
lemieux66c
09-15-05, 03:44 PM
Terrell, you do make several good points - you are right it wouldn't be a fair comparsion unless he was a #1 elsewhere. Few #2's are ever good as a #1. Keenan McCardell is one that I can name that had success. But I still think Price would have been much better with a more pass oriented QB.
mgbfan
09-15-05, 11:28 PM
His first year in Atlanta, Vick got injured and missed the year. Price had 64 catches for 838 yards.
The next year, Vick comes back and plays the whole year. Price has 45 catches for 575 yards.
Ha - it's too bad he doesn't have a good passer to throw to him.
mgbfan
09-15-05, 11:31 PM
lets give daunte a season without moss, and see where he really stands on the list...
Or Manning without Harrison (I'm joking of course). Culpepper did play a fair number of games sans Moss last year and did quite smashingly. Honestly, he'll miss Matt Birk more than he'll miss Moss, I suspect.
I look for the lack of Moss to hurt the Vikings running game more than the passing game, as bizare as that sounds. Opponents won't have to leave their safties back anymore.
Mr. Cinema
09-16-05, 07:28 AM
Nope. That's still Randy Moss.
:lol:
I'd still put Tomlinson ahead of a guy who only plays hard during half the game. He's a deep threat but that's it. There are much better all around receivers in the league. I would take Owens, Harrison, or Holt over Moss because they do alot more than run deep.
Vick is the most dangerous because he has the ball on every offensive play.
The guy is only 25. And McNabb has had some very average seasons. His career QB rating is around 83. And in 2003, his rating was only 79.6 and it seemed like people were calling for his head.
I'm a VT season ticket holder, so I got to watch Vick in college alot. He was only there 2 years and had a 20-2 record. He didn't put up huge numbers in college either, but his team wins. I, like many Hokie fans, thought he should have stayed 1 more year there to get more polished.
twikoff
09-16-05, 08:09 AM
half the game?
you're giving moss about 25% too much credit
he COULD be one of the best.. as it is, he is just a very talented slackass
twikoff
09-16-05, 10:41 AM
here is sporting news' top 100 of 2005 (last years ranks in parenthesis)
TSN's top 100 for 2005
1. Peyton Manning, QB, Colts (2)
2. Tom Brady, QB, Patriots (9)
3. LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, Chargers (1)
4. Randy Moss, WR, Raiders (4)
5. Daunte Culpepper, QB, Vikings (26)
6. Donovan McNabb, QB, Eagles (29)
7. Walter Jones, OT, Seahawks (22)
8. Ray Lewis, MLB, Ravens (3)
9. Ed Reed, S, Ravens (31)
10. Terrell Owens, WR, Eagles (18)
11. Brett Favre, QB, Packers (5)
12. Michael Vick, QB, Falcons (51)
13. Julius Peppers, DE, Panthers (38)
14. Michael Strahan, DE, Giants (7)
15. Priest Holmes, RB, Chiefs (10)
16. Tony Gonzalez, TE, Chiefs (43)
17. Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins (8)
18. Julian Peterson, OLB, 49ers (11)
19. Jonathan Ogden, OT, Ravens (12)
20. Torry Holt, WR, Rams (19)
21. Champ Bailey, CB, Broncos (14)
22. Marvin Harrison, WR, Colts (13)
23. Brian Urlacher, MLB, Bears (36)
24. Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts (44)
25. Richard Seymour, DE, Patriots (15)
26. Roy Williams, S, Cowboys (32)
27. Simeon Rice, DE, Bucs (17)
28. Antonio Gates, TE, Chargers (NR)
29. Shaun Rogers, DT, Lions (NR)
30. Kevin Williams, DT, Vikings (NR)
31. Jamal Lewis, RB, Ravens (21)
32. Brian Dawkins, S, Eagles (33)
33. Chris McAlister, CB, Ravens (20)
34. Orlando Pace, OT, Rams (25)
35. Troy Polamalu, S, Steelers (NR)
36. Hines Ward, WR, Steelers (71)
37. Marcus Stroud, DT, Jaguars (53)
38. Edgerrin James, RB, Colts (NR)
39. Nate Clements, CB, Bills (NR)
40. Kris Jenkins, DT, Panthers (39)
41. Javon Walker, WR, Packers (NR)
42. Derrick Brooks, OLB, Bucs (54)
43. Alan Faneca, G, Steelers (75)
44. Tiki Barber, RB, Giants (90)
45. Ahman Green, RB, Packers (16)
46. Olin Kreutz, C, Bears (42)
47. Keith Bulluck, OLB, Titans (56)
48. Shaun Alexander, RB, Seahawks (67)
49. Willie Roaf, OT, Chiefs (30)
50. Patrick Surtain, CB, Chiefs (27)
51. Will Shields, G, Chiefs (28)
52. John Henderson, DT, Jaguars (NR)
53. Trent Green, QB, Chiefs (57)
54. Curtis Martin, RB, Jets (NR)
55. Shaun Ellis, DE, Jets (NR)
56. Drew Brees, QB, Chargers (NR)
57. Rodney Harrison, S, Patriots (46)
58. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans (NR)
59. Chad Johnson, WR, Bengals (37)
60. Alge Crumpler, TE, Falcons (NR)
61. Deuce McAllister, RB, Saints (35)
62. Steve Hutchinson, G, Seahawks (66)
63. Jonathan Vilma, MLB, Jets (NR)
64. Cornelius Griffin, DT, Redskins (NR)
65. Michael Clayton, WR, Bucs (NR)
66. Michael Lewis, S, Eagles (NR)
67. Takeo Spikes, OLB, Bills (52)
68. Joe Horn, WR, Saints (NR)
69. Brian Waters, G, Chiefs (NR)
70. Jevon Kearse, DE, Eagles (23)
71. Corey Dillon, RB, Patriots (NR)
72. Muhsin Muhammad, WR, Bears (NR)
73. Charles Tillman, CB, Bears (NR)
74. Steve McNair, QB, Titans (6)
75. Trevor Pryce, DE, Broncos (34)
76. Adewale Ogunleye, DE, Bears (47)
77. Isaac Bruce, WR, Rams (NR)
78. Reggie Wayne, WR, Colts (NR)
79. Kevin Mawae, C, Jets (48)
80. Leonard Little, DE, Rams (45)
81. Charles Grant, DE, Saints (NR)
82. Terrell Suggs, DE, Ravens (98)
83. Rudi Johnson, RB, Bengals (NR)
84. Al Wilson, MLB, Broncos (69)
85. Fred Taylor, RB, Jaguars (76)
86. Brian Westbrook, RB, Eagles (NR)
87. Mike Wahle, G, Panthers (NR)
88. Bertrand Berry, DE, Cardinals (NR)
89. Shawn Springs, CB, Redskins (NR)
90. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, DE, Packers (74)
91. Samari Rolle, CB, Ravens (64)
92. LaVar Arrington, OLB, Redskins (81)
93. Antoine Winfield, CB, Vikings (63)
94. Donovin Darius, S, Jaguars (85)
95. Ty Law, CB, Jets (41)
96. Marc Bulger, QB, Rams (NR)
97. Jimmy Smith, WR, Jaguars (NR)
98. Tarik Glenn, OT, Colts (NR)
99. James Farrior, ILB, Steelers (NR)
100. Dre' Bly, CB, Lions (NR)
i dont agree with most of the list.. just posting it for debate
twikoff
09-16-05, 10:44 AM
using the list above.. it goes right along with what most people are saying..
top 5 qb
manning
brady
culpepper (expect a drop)
mcnabb
vick
they have favre in there right before vick.. but i dont think many people will agree with that.. he just is slowing sliding down each year and is ranked high based on the past.. while favre is probably top 10.. he definitly isnt top 5
look how far mcnair has plummetted
chrisih8u
09-16-05, 10:50 AM
half the game?
you're giving moss about 25% too much credit
he COULD be one of the best.. as it is, he is just a very talented slackass
I thought this was a very interesting story about Moss:
Put Belichick in the category of coaches who would love to have Randy Moss on his roster, despite controversial statements, off-the-field incidents, and accusations of his not giving 100 percent on every play. ''We hear that stuff about a lot of people," Belichick said. ''I think Randy Moss is a good competitor. There are times when he isn't going full speed. He probably knows that there's no chance that he would get the ball on that play. I think there are a lot of players who do that. Lawrence Taylor [for instance]. Lawrence Taylor was a great player. Every play wasn't his top effort and he was a high-effort player. But, Lawrence Taylor knew what the [big] plays were in the game. He knew third-and-8 in the fourth quarter was a lot different than first-and-10 in the second quarter. And it was."
chrisih8u
09-16-05, 10:54 AM
using the list above.. it goes right along with what most people are saying..
top 5 qb
manning
brady
culpepper (expect a drop)
mcnabb
vick
they have favre in there right before vick.. but i dont think many people will agree with that.. he just is slowing sliding down each year and is ranked high based on the past.. while favre is probably top 10.. he definitly isnt top 5
look how far mcnair has plummetted
Top 5 QB thread (http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384673&highlight=brady)
:sigh: Were you guys alive when Randall Cunningham was playing? If you were, you'd know that you cannot win with a running QB and Randall had 3 times the gun and accuracy of Vick.
:down: Overrated but Top 15.
CRM114
09-16-05, 12:50 PM
Good point. For that matter, take Owens away from McNabb, and let's see how things work out.
McNabb went to the NFC title game 3 times with Owens. In fact, he made it TO the Super Bowl last year without Owens.
Red Dog
09-16-05, 01:07 PM
:sigh: Were you guys alive when Randall Cunningham was playing? If you were, you'd know that you cannot win with a running QB and Randall had 3 times the gun and accuracy of Vick.
You're forgetting that (except for Randall, who led them in rushing 4 straight years), the Eagles had an absolutely attrocious running game in the late 80s/early 90s. I mean we're talking standouts like Heath Sherman, Keith Byars, and Anthony Toney. That's why they never went anywhere in the playoffs.
I've always said that if Randall Cunningham played for the Cowboys, he would have done what Aikman did.
Mr. Cinema
09-16-05, 01:40 PM
using the list above.. it goes right along with what most people are saying..
top 5 qb
manning
brady
culpepper (expect a drop)
mcnabb
vick
they have favre in there right before vick.. but i dont think many people will agree with that.. he just is slowing sliding down each year and is ranked high based on the past.. while favre is probably top 10.. he definitly isnt top 5
look how far mcnair has plummetted
So you don't think Favre's 2004 numbers (4,088 yards, 30 td, 17 int, 92.4 rating) had anything to do with his spot on that list?
cleaver
09-16-05, 02:00 PM
here is sporting news' top 100 of 2005 (last years ranks in parenthesis)
i dont agree with most of the list.. just posting it for debate
Not attacking you, just the Sporting News.
Please, Strahan as the 4th best defensive player? Favre the 11th best player? Bullock #47 (too low)? Drew Brees was a fringe NFL player now he's as good as Trent Green? It's like they watch no tape at all. The correspondents they use are mostly fatasses who watch no football not televised in their market.
Anyone got the Sports Weekly rankings? They're usually the best, followed by Madden, then Sporting News.
twikoff
09-16-05, 03:02 PM
:sigh: Were you guys alive when Randall Cunningham was playing? If you were, you'd know that you cannot win with a running QB and Randall had 3 times the gun and accuracy of Vick.
:down: Overrated but Top 15.
cunningham put up some massive passing numbers if I remember right
too busy to go back and check now.. but didnt he have 3k and 4k passing yard seasons
twikoff
09-16-05, 03:06 PM
So you don't think Favre's 2004 numbers (4,088 yards, 30 td, 17 int, 92.4 rating) had anything to do with his spot on that list?
yep.. favre had a great year last year.. and he is still a top QB in my mind
but i dont consider him top 5 any longer. he did slide on the list, but in my opinion, he should have slid a little more.
twikoff
09-16-05, 03:08 PM
Not attacking you, just the Sporting News.
i wouldnt take it as an attack.. since I definitly didnt agree with alot of those rankings.. i think previous years (not just last year) seemed to play too much of a factor.. it seemed like name recognition was a big deal..
Red Dog
09-16-05, 03:08 PM
cunningham put up some massive passing numbers if I remember right
too busy to go back and check now.. but didnt he have 3k and 4k passing yard seasons
Yep. I neglected that point. He averaged about 3500 pass yds from '88-'90, plus he had 20+ TDs every year from '87-'90. His 1990 season was amazing: 3500 pass yds, 942 rush yds, 30 paTDs, 5 ruTDs, 13 INTs. Made it all the sweeter when the Skins totally shut him down in the playoff game that year.
twikoff
09-16-05, 03:14 PM
Yep. I neglected that point. He averaged about 3500 pass yds from '88-'90, plus he had 20+ TDs every year from '87-'90. His 1990 season was amazing: 3500 pass yds, 942 rush yds, 30 paTDs, 5 ruTDs, 13 INTs. Made it all the sweeter when the Skins totally shut him down in the playoff game that year.
:lol:
there are alot of pure passing QBs that would LOVE to have those passing numbers, even without any of the rushing yardage...
just think if randall had been any good at passing ;)
pedagogue
09-16-05, 03:42 PM
Vick is a Top 3 PLAYER.....period. If you ask every GM if they'd want him on the team instead of their current QB....and i bet all of them would, with the exception of the Colts and Minnesota. Owners love him because he brings in a TON of money.
As a Stat's QB.....he isn't great. Though you don't win super bowls being just a Stat's QB (Ref. Marino). You need the intangibles: leadership, big play ability, etc. He gets things done.
He needs to cut down on his INTs and he needs to develop a bit more poise in the pocket....but those are things that a lot of QBs need to work on....but they don't have the physical gifts that Vick has, which he uses to cover up some of his mistakes.
-pedagogue
twikoff
09-16-05, 03:58 PM
not just the INTs
he also needs to put some more stickum on those hands
if he is going to hold the ball straight down in his palm whenever he runs
but you have to catch him first
his accelleration is out of this world.. a couple defenders will have an angle, get him in their sites, go in for the tackle.. and next thing you know, he kicks into another gear and is 5 yards past them as they tackle air... That is one thing that seperates him from players like daunte and mcnabb.. Those guys can run, break tackles, and even run over defensive backs.. but they dont have that extra gear..
of course, that is something he will lose over time, but for now, its fun to watch.
and yep.. from a franchising standpoint.. he is a cash cow.
#7 is one of the most popular jerseys sold (if not the most popular), and not just with atlanta fans.
chrisih8u
09-16-05, 06:31 PM
Vick is a Top 3 PLAYER.....period. If you ask every GM if they'd want him on the team instead of their current QB....and i bet all of them would, with the exception of the Colts and Minnesota. Owners love him because he brings in a TON of money.
Patriots owner Bob Kraft would tell you to take a flying leap. And you dont measure a player by their jersey sales. No way is Vick top 3.
SuprVgeta
09-16-05, 10:11 PM
He's the most dangerous player on the field. His passing stats are hurt by a talentless wide receiver core. Heck, Crumpler (TE) is his only reliable target.
Jericho
09-16-05, 10:16 PM
and yep.. from a franchising standpoint.. he is a cash cow.
#7 is one of the most popular jerseys sold (if not the most popular), and not just with atlanta fans.
Side question, but does anyone know how jersey sales get divided among the teams? Intuition would say each teams gets money for tehir own jersey sales, but I also suspect the NFLPA and the NFL Properties get involved somehow. It wouldn't be a total shock to see the money get split evenly. But I really have no idea, so I'm curious.
mgbfan
09-19-05, 02:36 AM
I'd still put Tomlinson ahead of a guy who only plays hard during half the game.
The discussion was "most dangerous," not "most consistant."
He's a deep threat but that's it. There are much better all around receivers in the league.
The discussion was "most dangerous," not "best all-around."
Vick is the most dangerous because he has the ball on every offensive play.
The discussion was "most dangerous," not "most prolific."
The guy is only 25.
So? We're talking about whether he's overrated NOW, not whether he'll be overrated in two years.
I'm a VT season ticket holder,
Thanks for establishing your own complete lack of objectivity.
mgbfan
09-19-05, 02:41 AM
Vick is a Top 3 PLAYER.....period.
Oh, well if you say "period," then that really proves it. No arguing with that. After all, you said period.
If you ask every GM if they'd want him on the team instead of their current QB....
Prove it.
As a Stat's QB.....he isn't great. Though you don't win super bowls being just a Stat's QB (Ref. Marino).
Well, before we anoint him a Super-Bowl winner because of his lack of Stats (sic), let's let him actually win one. Otherwise, you're kind of implying that mediocre statistics are causal to winning titles, and that's just pretty damned absurd.
You need the intangibles: leadership, big play ability, etc. He gets things done.
Ahh, well. How can one argue with such an ironclad argument as this?
mgbfan
09-19-05, 02:42 AM
He's the most dangerous player on the field. His passing stats are hurt by a talentless wide receiver core. Heck, Crumpler (TE) is his only reliable target.
It's too bad the Falcons don't go sign him a high-priced free-agent wide receiver whose one of the fastest up-and-comers on the market.
Paging Peerless Price....
mautos
09-19-05, 10:19 AM
He's the most dangerous player on the field.
His alter ego Ron Mexico is also pretty dangerous OFF the field.
Pharoh
10-19-05, 01:25 PM
After viewing a few Falcons games this year, I have to ask. How has Vick regressed so much? Is it the west coast style offense, or will he just never be a very good passer?
Patman
10-19-05, 04:09 PM
I think his receiving corps (besides Crumpler, and perhaps Finneran) suck. Dez White drops too many passes, and Michael Jenkins shouldn't be a starter in this league either because he's too inconsistent as well.
Terrell
10-19-05, 04:22 PM
After viewing a few Falcons games this year, I have to ask. How has Vick regressed so much?
I've been saying it from day one. His offense line is absolutely terrible at protecting him in the pocket. He was absolutely creamed in the first half of the Saints game. On top of that, his WRs are not good. White dropped at least 4-5 passes in the game that probably would have given Vick another 80+ yards of passing, not to mention would have kept 3 drives going. Jenkins is wildly inconsistent as well. His only dependable WR is Crumpler.
Some NFL Analyst on Cold Pizza made a great ovbservation that I mentioned before. Vick has a much better completion percentage when he's outside the pocket than he does inside the pocket. That's simply because he's not worried about getting killed. He also seems to be able to get the ball to Crumpler no matter where he is on the field.
So to anyone watching Falcon's games, it should be obvious. People have asked how can the Falcon's OL protect Schaub against New England, and not protect Vick. It needs to be said that the Patriots were without Seymour, one of the best interior lineman in the leauge. Plus, the Patriots didn't blitz much at all against the Falcons. Whenever Vick is in the game, opposing teams are going to blitz.
So until Atlanta can protect Vick consistently and actually get him a big time, dependable WR, Vick won't get much better passing the ball.
It's too bad the Falcons don't go sign him a high-priced free-agent wide receiver whose one of the fastest up-and-comers on the market.
That's exactly the thing they needed this off-season, but they sat on their hands and did nothing. Look at every great QB in the league. They all have at least one great WR to throw to, or at least a corps of very good WRs. Not to mention they all have solid pass protection.
Having said all that, he's never going to be the typical dropback passer who throws 40-50 times a game. But he will get better when the Falcons address those issues. Still, the guy is a winner. He wins games.
Pharoh
10-19-05, 04:44 PM
I've been saying it from day one. His offense line is absolutely terrible at protecting him in the pocket. He was absolutely creamed in the first half of the Saints game. On top of that, his WRs are not good. White dropped at least 4-5 passes in the game that probably would have given Vick another 80+ yards of passing, not to mention would have kept 3 drives going. Jenkins is wildly inconsistent as well. His only dependable WR is Crumpler.
Some NFL Analyst on Cold Pizza made a great ovbservation that I mentioned before. Vick has a much better completion percentage when he's outside the pocket than he does inside the pocket. That's simply because he's not worried about getting killed. He also seems to be able to get the ball to Crumpler no matter where he is on the field.
So to anyone watching Falcon's games, it should be obvious. People have asked how can the Falcon's OL protect Schaub against New England, and not protect Vick. It needs to be said that the Patriots were without Seymour, one of the best interior lineman in the leauge. Plus, the Patriots didn't blitz much at all against the Falcons. Whenever Vick is in the game, opposing teams are going to blitz.
So until Atlanta can protect Vick consistently and actually get him a big time, dependable WR, Vick won't get much better passing the ball.
That's exactly the thing they needed this off-season, but they sat on their hands and did nothing. Look at every great QB in the league. They all have at least one great WR to throw to, or at least a corps of very good WRs. Not to mention they all have solid pass protection.
Having said all that, he's never going to be the typical dropback passer who throws 40-50 times a game. But he will get better when the Falcons address those issues. Still, the guy is a winner. He wins games.
I don't wholly disagree, but two points come to mind. First, the Patriots without Seymour are still superior to the Saints. I don't think that is a valid excuse for the game Schaub had.
Secondly, I was refering more to his actual passing than the results of his passing. It seems to me, and I admit I don't watch all of his games, that his reads are not what they were, and his passing touch is not as good as it used to be.
Terrell
10-20-05, 10:39 AM
that his reads are not what they were
When you don't consistently have time to make those reads, you're not going to be very good at that.
First, the Patriots without Seymour are still superior to the Saints.
Have you actually watched the Patriots defense? They are nowhere near as good as they were the past few years. They've been getting killed. They didn't blitz much at all. Whereas the Saints blitzed the hell out of Vick.
Now, I'm not trying to explain away Schaub's performance. But, he had all day to throw the football. When you have all day to look down field and go through your progressions, you're going to have much more success passing.
and his passing touch is not as good as it used to be.
Let's be honest here. We're not talking about Joe Montana. Vick had never been a great touch passer, or even very good. If you're asking why he seemed better under Dan Reeves, well he had more consistent WRs and more protection from his OL. Plus the fact that Dan Reeves' offense revolved around whatever Vick could do. He also ran more back then as well. Now Vick is trying to learn a much more difficult offense in terms of reads, progressions, and routes.The West Coast is just much more complicated, and Vick was totally unfamiliar with this scheme.
Buy: