SAN FRANCISCO - The possibility that consumers will have to choose from two competing DVD formats next year is growing now that negotiations have broken down between the groups behind the different standards.
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Japanese electronics giant Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news)., which supports a format known as Blu-ray, and a bloc led by Toshiba Corp., which backs the rival HD DVD system, began discussions this year to see whether they could agree on a unified format. But the talks have been suspended indefinitely, according to Andy Parsons, a Blu-ray spokesman.
"We are hopeful that we can still find a resolution," Parsons said. "We still have time to find a way to avoid having two formats go to market, which isn't good for consumers or us."
This is the latest snag in the efforts to avoid a war between the groups, both of which represent Hollywood studios, manufacturers of DVD players and the disk makers. Both sides have publicly criticized the other's technology.
Should the two groups launch their own disks, disk players and separate content, the costs to each group could be in the billions.
Confused shoppers most likely would stick to their old DVDs until a single format is established, said Josh Martin, an analyst with the technology research firm IDC. He said video-rental stores probably wouldn't want to cram their shelves with both Blu-ray and HD DVD disks.
"DVD sales are already hurting and this is not going to help spur sales," Martin said.
Sony's Blu-ray disks have a more sophisticated format and store 25 gigabytes of data, compared with HD DVD's 15, but are more expensive to produce.
Taro Takamine, a Sony spokesman, said that while Sony remains open to discussion with the Toshiba bloc, the firm's goal is to agree on a single format, not a jointly developed one.
"We have no intention on settling on a compromised format that only plays back 20 gigabytes, for example," Takamine said.
Toshiba spokesman Junko Furuta also acknowledged that a unified format did not look likely for the time being. Blu-ray disks would be harder to adopt for use in laptop computers, as well as in car navigation systems that are popular in Japan, Furuta said.
"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal hard drives are more popular."
Both sides are already developing products that feature their respective DVD formats. Toshiba plans to roll out HD DVD players by the end of this year, while Sony's popular game console PlayStation 3, which will play Blu-ray disks, is due in spring 2006.
Entertainment companies are also split over the two formats. Walt Disney Co. and 20th Century Fox support Blu-ray, while Toshiba has won the backing of companies like Warner Bros. and Universal Pictures.
Loc Nar
08-23-05, 05:42 PM
Ah well. I'm reminded of the old saying, "What if they had a war and nobody came?" I'll be sitting this one out.
zombiezilla
08-23-05, 09:22 PM
I'll be doing the same thing I did when DVDs came out, and took out VHS. I'll sit on the sidelines, picking the winner long after the battle is over, and the winner has a huge stable of titles that I want/need.
However, I get the feeling that the original contender (basic DVD) will win this one....
The Wheez0r
08-23-05, 09:29 PM
I'll be doing the same thing I did when DVDs came out, and took out VHS. I'll sit on the sidelines, picking the winner long after the battle is over, and the winner has a huge stable of titles that I want/need.
However, I get the feeling that the original contender (basic DVD) will win this one....
Agreed. To me people don't wanna have to go out and buy a new Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player, along with the movies which could just as easily be bought on DVD.
Breakfast with Girls
08-23-05, 09:31 PM
PlayStation 3.
DVD King
08-23-05, 09:53 PM
Agreed. To me people don't wanna have to go out and buy a new Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player, along with the movies which could just as easily be bought on DVD.
Yeah, two formats on the market just isn't going to happen. DVD will probably be the king format for awhile.
"DVD sales are already hurting and this is not going to help spur sales"
Is this true? I keep hearing that DVD's are more profitable than their film's run in theaters, sounds curious.
bboisvert
08-23-05, 10:04 PM
Is this true? I keep hearing that DVD's are more profitable than their film's run in theaters, sounds curious.
DVD sales are down slightly this year over the previous few, but that's because:
1. There are few "new" DVD people. Everyone now has an established player in their house, so people aren't running out and buying tons of titles like they were when they first got their players.
2. Nearly every "major" film has been released. There are no more Star Wars, BTTF, Indiana Jones type films that people are waiting for.
3. Most new theatrical releases lately blow goats, so DVD buzz on them is lackluster at best.
So, as a natural result of this, sales are not as stellar as they were in 2003/4. They're still pretty damn good, though -- and TV on DVD is going through the roof. Studios aren't really crying poverty, they're just realizing that they're now dealing with an established format and are looking at the next-gen formats as a way to goose revenue.
cajun_junky
08-23-05, 10:20 PM
DVD sales are down slightly this year over the previous few, but that's because:
1. There are few "new" DVD people. Everyone now has an established player in their house, so people aren't running out and buying tons of titles like they were when they first got their players.
2. Nearly every "major" film has been released. There are no more Star Wars, BTTF, Indiana Jones type films that people are waiting for.
3. Most new theatrical releases lately blow goats, so DVD buzz on them is lackluster at best.
So, as a natural result of this, sales are not as stellar as they were in 2003/4. They're still pretty damn good, though -- and TV on DVD is going through the roof. Studios aren't really crying poverty, they're just realizing that they're now dealing with an established format and are looking at the next-gen formats as a way to goose revenue.
I wonder if the studios actually got so accustomed to record increases in dvd sales each year that they thought it would not plateau? Kind of like the dot coms of later years. I can't imagine they are that near-sighted.
PopcornTreeCt
08-23-05, 10:22 PM
I'll stick to watching HD broadcasts of movies.
joliom
08-23-05, 10:58 PM
I'll wait until the format war is settled. I already got screwed being an early adopter of HDTV (no HDMI).
marty888
08-23-05, 11:05 PM
I managed <i><b>not</b></i> to be the proud owner of an 8-track or Betamax .... I'll wait, and watch ....
RoboDad
08-23-05, 11:20 PM
DVD sales are down slightly this year over the previous few
That isn't quite the way I read the reports. The rate of increase is down over previous years, but the actual sales are still increasing year to year. The prediction is that sales will level off soon, but they have not yet done so.
critterdvd
08-23-05, 11:28 PM
My theory is that Blu-Ray and HD with cancel each other out, leaving regular DVD the victor...
bboisvert
08-23-05, 11:35 PM
That isn't quite the way I read the reports. The rate of increase is down over previous years, but the actual sales are still increasing year to year. The prediction is that sales will level off soon, but they have not yet done so.
Yes, you are correct. (I'm a bit tired, and my post was poorly worded.)
gcribbs
08-23-05, 11:47 PM
PlayStation 3.
I will join Blu-Ray then also.
Shazam
08-24-05, 12:05 AM
I wonder if the studios actually got so accustomed to record increases in dvd sales each year that they thought it would not plateau? Kind of like the dot coms of later years. I can't imagine they are that near-sighted.Yes, they are that short-sighted. They're executives. Image a horse with blinders on and then having their eyes stabbed with an ice pick. That's how short-sighted they are.
tasha99
08-24-05, 12:43 AM
Yes, they are that short-sighted. They're executives. Image a horse with blinders on and then having their eyes stabbed with an ice pick. That's how short-sighted they are.
**(Note my mad photoshopping skills: out of deference to the Otters who think there's too much pornography on the forum, I have given the horse lime green pants. Not that you could see anything, but there you go.)
Rubix
08-24-05, 01:11 AM
there's no doubt in my mind that blu-ray will win and is the superior format. i will be buying a player as soon as one comes out that is affordable to me, which will probably be a bd-rom drive rather than a standalone.
i remember my first dvd-rom drive by creative labs. man, looking back that thing was a piece of junk, but it was good for it's price/time.
so when is bdtalk coming?
Qui Gon Jim
08-24-05, 01:23 PM
there's no doubt in my mind that blu-ray will win and is the superior format. i will be buying a player as soon as one comes out that is affordable to me, which will probably be a bd-rom drive rather than a standalone.
i remember my first dvd-rom drive by creative labs. man, looking back that thing was a piece of junk, but it was good for it's price/time.
so when is bdtalk coming?
Impossible to say which is a superior forumat until you have the actual format to look at. At this point, both BR and HD are "paper-ware" (yes I know that there have been BD drives in Japan, yadda yadda but they are not the final BD-ROM spec).
I also don;t think PS3 will be the huge factor that many make it out to be. IMO, if it does clock in at $450-500 as reported. If XBox360 comes out six months ahead and is priced $150 lower than PS3, I think they can take the "crown" from Sony.
DthRdrX
08-24-05, 01:34 PM
Impossible to say which is a superior forumat until you have the actual format to look at. At this point, both BR and HD are "paper-ware" (yes I know that there have been BD drives in Japan, yadda yadda but they are not the final BD-ROM spec).
I also don;t think PS3 will be the huge factor that many make it out to be. IMO, if it does clock in at $450-500 as reported. If XBox360 comes out six months ahead and is priced $150 lower than PS3, I think they can take the "crown" from Sony.
I don't know about the PS3 yet. I think the mass production of this machine is going to help get BR drive prices down really quick while Hd-dvd players/drives stay at inflated prices and lower production. As far as games go PS3 might lose to the Xbox, which I personally doubt, but it still puts more BR users out there while Hd-dvd has to sell stand-alone players at full price.
ShagMan
08-24-05, 02:50 PM
OK, this topic has been beat to death, but I just watned to say the thread title is great... I imagine somebody at mission control saying "the format war isss a-go!"
TylerDurden_73
08-24-05, 03:10 PM
I'll wait until the format war is settled. I already got screwed being an early adopter of HDTV (no HDMI).
Yeah me too. I see HD-DVD/Blueray being like Laserdisc, more for movie aficionado
roger_d
08-24-05, 04:17 PM
I've said this many times before, i'm not spending anymore money on another format. I've invested too much money in the one format we have now.
gorgo99
08-24-05, 04:21 PM
All your home video formats are belong to us.
RoboDad
08-24-05, 06:31 PM
OK, this topic has been beat to death, but I just watned to say the thread title is great... I imagine somebody at mission control saying "the format war isss a-go!"
Procedures? Go.
Recorders? Go.
HDMI? We are go.
FUD? Go!
DRM? Go.
Confusion? We're go, flight.
Launch Control, this is Houston. We are go for format war.
Kumar J
08-24-05, 10:23 PM
I will select the cheapest and HD-DVD is confirmed to be more cheaper to make and with my normal TV and with HD TV or Plasma, the picture is promised to be good.So since Sony and Panasonic decided to make thier own format and start a war with Toshiba,I will not buy any of them anytime soon,maybe 3 years after they come up with the bug free products
tofferman
08-24-05, 10:37 PM
Is it really any surprise here that a format war is looming? I am currently pretty happy with my home theater, though I do appreciate HDTV and will embrace the technology beyond my big screen someday. As long as future HD dvd players are backwards compatible, I'll watch this battle from the sidelines by holding onto my wallet.
Leon Liew
08-25-05, 01:23 AM
Will wait until the dusk are settled before deciding so meanwhile sit back, relax and
enjoy and let 'em kill each other !
joliom
08-25-05, 01:40 AM
Yeah me too. I see HD-DVD/Blueray being like Laserdisc, more for movie aficionado
I actually think whichever format ends up winning will become the norm and supplant standard DVD eventually (so long as they don't renege on the promise that they will be backwards compatible). However, I'm not biting for at least a few years to avoid being raked over the coals. I won't make the switch-over until:
1. There is one single universal disc format.
2. Prices of players have become affordable.
3. Players have been through enough production runs to correct initial bugs.
4. It's obvious no new important advancements to the technology are eminent (like the arrival of progressive scan DVD players in the first few years of DVD).
5. There are enough titles available that I want containing extras equaling or bettering their standard DVD counterparts. I'm not buying a bunch of bare-bones HD-DVD's when there are special edition SD-DVD's floating around (that only means the studios are deliberately withholding extras in order to boost HD-DVD sales with pre-planned double-dips - No thanks!).
BigDan
08-25-05, 02:04 AM
I like the Toshiba guy's contention that consumers prefer having less space on the disc. Like that's a benefit rather than a limitation.
I will select the cheapest and HD-DVD is confirmed to be more cheaper to make and with my normal TV and with HD TV or Plasma, the picture is promised to be good
HD-DVD is currently cheaper to manufacture, but that doesn't mean the hardware or the discs will be cheaper for the consumer.
diespine
08-25-05, 03:48 AM
just look at psp, the advertisments on tv, print and online have new releases on dvd and (umd)psp, no more dvd and video cassette, and this is with the lower than expected sales of the psp, sony's ps3 might not have the expected sales, but they will have blu-ray players out there and the movie industry will react the same way as they did with the psp (umd)format
gcribbs
08-25-05, 05:10 AM
Impossible to say which is a superior forumat until you have the actual format to look at. At this point, both BR and HD are "paper-ware" (yes I know that there have been BD drives in Japan, yadda yadda but they are not the final BD-ROM spec).
I also don;t think PS3 will be the huge factor that many make it out to be. IMO, if it does clock in at $450-500 as reported. If XBox360 comes out six months ahead and is priced $150 lower than PS3, I think they can take the "crown" from Sony.
There is no way the PS3 will be priced $150 more than the XBOX2. Sony would rather lose money on the console and make it back on licensing fees and game sales. Add the Blu-Ray marketshare issue and I think the PS3 will be priced lower than the XBOX2 or the same no way higher.
Qui Gon Jim
08-25-05, 08:31 AM
There is no way the PS3 will be priced $150 more than the XBOX2. Sony would rather lose money on the console and make it back on licensing fees and game sales. Add the Blu-Ray marketshare issue and I think the PS3 will be priced lower than the XBOX2 or the same no way higher.
That is not what "insiders" are saying. Word is that they will be losing money at $450. If stand alone players are going to run $1K, I can see this being true. Ket Kuturagi said himself the console will be "expensive" and something people will be willing to work extra hours to obtain. I have not read anywhere that it will be cheaper then XBox360. In fact, I have heard that MS's strategy is to do a SRP drop the week before PS3 launches. Discounting the Sony faithful, most people will go "Hmm...XB $250 or PS3 $450. I can get an XB with FOUR games for the price of the PS3." What would you choose?
Other rumors abound about delays, underpowered hardware (for both units) and the omition of the BD drive from the unit to cut costs. They have already cut the wireless router function from the PS3.
I do agree though that any PS3 in people's hands increases the number of BD players. I just don't think the PS3 will be the success the PS2 was, and therefore the impact on total BD drives will be lessened.
nightmaster
08-26-05, 02:17 PM
I'll be doing the same thing I did when DVDs came out, and took out VHS. I'll sit on the sidelines, picking the winner long after the battle is over, and the winner has a huge stable of titles that I want/need.
However, I get the feeling that the original contender (basic DVD) will win this one....
Amazingly enough this could easily happen. If they are hellbent on standard DVDs going away the best way to ensure that is take 'em off the shelves as they did in the the days when vinyl was replaced by CD. I don't see it happening because DVD makes money for the industry in a way they've never seen before. Are they willing to take the risk of killing the golden egg laying goose to force everyone's hand into buying HD discs? Maybe....but not till there's long since been a winner, cheap hardware and reasonable title prices.
cultshock
08-26-05, 02:29 PM
just look at psp, the advertisments on tv, print and online have new releases on dvd and (umd)psp, no more dvd and video cassette, and this is with the lower than expected sales of the psp, sony's ps3 might not have the expected sales, but they will have blu-ray players out there and the movie industry will react the same way as they did with the psp (umd)format
I'm thinking about that too. Most people will be sitting out during the format war, but many will technically side with Blu-ray by buying a PS3. Sure, they will be buying it for gaming, but at the same time, Sony will end up having a "trojan horse" installed base of Blu-Ray players. Movies on UMD were considered a secondary thing for PSP, but they have been selling considerably better than the studios expected, and look at how many titles are coming out in that format now (with more studios hopping on board). The same thing could very well happen with PS3. If the Xbox 360 included HD-DVD, it would be trickier to predict, but it won't. So with the looming format war, consumer confusion and/or reluctance to possibly choose the "losing" format, and the PS3 coming, I think that Sony just might win by default (but "win" is a relative term, because I also believe that standard DVDs will continue to predominate for a long time still).
joliom
08-26-05, 02:59 PM
I'm inclined to think Blu-Ray will win out since it is the technically superior format and since most of its "issues" can be worked out eventually (whereas HD-DVD's limitations are inherent). Then again, that was true of Beta also...
lamphorn
08-26-05, 03:34 PM
So silly of them to rush into it like this without settling the issues. HD discs won't take off the way DVD did because the vast majority of people don't have HD TV's! DVD made use of the t.v.'s that everyone had, but nobody without an HDTV is going to waste their money on a video quality they can't see. My point is they could have taken a couple more years to hash out an agreement because it'll be several more years before most people have HDTV's. If I could remotely afford an HDTV right now I'd love to have one, but that's no time soon, and I have invested way too much money and time into my DVD collection to think about switching to a new format. Anyway, didn't I blow your mind this time? Didn't I?
So, I'm with you all that are sitting this one out and laughing.
joliom
08-27-05, 08:00 AM
If I could remotely afford an HDTV right now I'd love to have one, but that's no time soon
Could be worse. You could have dropped $6,000 on a 60" Sony HDTV a few years ago only to have them yank the carpet out from under you by insisting their HD discs will only be compatible with an input that only the newer model TV's have. Hey, what's $6000 though, right?
dhmac
08-27-05, 10:06 AM
I honestly don't understand why the hardware manufacturers can't just standardize on a universal player that can play back both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, in addition to standard DVD. That'll make a format war completely moot. Because the Film Studios can release their movies in either standard DVD, Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD, and consumers can buy any movie and be confident that their disc players can play the title back. The discs are all the same diameter, and the thickness issue can be dealt with too, so universal hardware shouldn't be much of a technical challenge.
It's a win-win situation with universal players as the only standard, while a format war with incompatible players and discs is lose-lose all around.
sracer
08-27-05, 10:33 AM
I honestly don't understand why the hardware manufacturers can't just standardize on a universal player that can play back both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, in addition to standard DVD.
You really don't understand? It's pretty simple. It's about licensing fees (of the technology) and corporate bragging rights. Why do you think that neither side has caved in and simply accepted the other format?
That'll make a format war completely moot. Because the Film Studios can release their movies in either standard DVD, Blu-Ray, or HD-DVD, and consumers can buy any movie and be confident that their disc players can play the title back. The discs are all the same diameter, and the thickness issue can be dealt with too, so universal hardware shouldn't be much of a technical challenge.
It's a win-win situation with universal players as the only standard, while a format war with incompatible players and discs is lose-lose all around.
Your "solution" fails to answer a very basic question....
"Why should there be two formats?"
Iron_Giant
08-27-05, 11:20 AM
I'm thinking about that too. Most people will be sitting out during the format war, but many will technically side with Blu-ray by buying a PS3. Sure, they will be buying it for gaming, but at the same time, Sony will end up having a "trojan horse" installed base of Blu-Ray players. Movies on UMD were considered a secondary thing for PSP, but they have been selling considerably better than the studios expected, and look at how many titles are coming out in that format now (with more studios hopping on board). The same thing could very well happen with PS3. If the Xbox 360 included HD-DVD, it would be trickier to predict, but it won't. So with the looming format war, consumer confusion and/or reluctance to possibly choose the "losing" format, and the PS3 coming, I think that Sony just might win by default (but "win" is a relative term, because I also believe that standard DVDs will continue to predominate for a long time still).
I have had an EBox for about a year now, played many games on it and have watched a few movies also.
But, I will not buy another Game Box without HD "DVD" built in. So, it looks like PS3 will be my next Game Box/DVD Player.
I already have an HDTV with a DVI, waiting for HD "DVD" to be released.
DthRdrX
08-28-05, 01:33 AM
You really don't understand? It's pretty simple. It's about licensing fees (of the technology) and corporate bragging rights. Why do you think that neither side has caved in and simply accepted the other format?
Your "solution" fails to answer a very basic question....
"Why should there be two formats?"
I hope two formats don't find their way to the marketplace.
That being said, I'm also glad that two formats have been fighting it out behind the scenes for the last 2-3 years. Thankfully both sides have improved many things because of this competition. (added Blue Laser/Lossless Audio/Better Codecs/More Storage Space, ect ....)
joliom
08-28-05, 10:41 AM
I'm sure it will only be a few years before dual-format players hit the market. I don't know about a lot of the big boys since they're committed to a particular format and have a lot vested in that, but I bet you'll start to see both high-end machines from some of the smaller videophile tech companies and low-end ones like Apex. That's exactly what happened with SACD and DVD-A.
kornboy
08-28-05, 10:53 AM
I am just going to stick with good 'ol DVD's. Because 15-20 years down the road, something better will come down the road then HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray. I think DVD is great quality and will still be around in 20-30 years. Cheap too! :D
dhmac
08-28-05, 11:13 AM
You really don't understand? It's pretty simple. It's about licensing fees (of the technology) and corporate bragging rights. Why do you think that neither side has caved in and simply accepted the other format?
Your "solution" fails to answer a very basic question....
"Why should there be two formats?"
I didn't say there should be two HD formats, I'm just accepting the fact that there are two HD formats. And neither side is about to drop its own format, so we are stuck with them both. (Anyone who thinks one side is going to drop its format is being completely unrealistic.)
So instead of letting this play out as a format war in which both sides possibly lose, why not resolve it on the hardware side and set guidelines for all players to play back both HD formats.
This is a universal-format solution that already works for DVD-Audio and SACD, DVD+R and DVD-R. But both took years for universal players to show up, which definitely hurt DVD-Audio and SACD in the market. So, instead, if universal HD players were defined as the standard before these hit the market, then a format war would not be a real issue and the growth of the market won't be stunted right out-of-the-gate.
Josh H
08-28-05, 11:13 AM
That is not what "insiders" are saying. Word is that they will be losing money at $450.
It's still very much a wait and see issue. Sony want's to keep their console lead, drive MS out of the industry and jump start blu-ray in homes to win the format war. They may be willing to lose a lot on each console. They can make it up pretty easily with first party game sales as they have a ton of hit game series from their in house studios.
Discounting the Sony faithful, most people will go "Hmm...XB $250 or PS3 $450. I can get an XB with FOUR games for the price of the PS3." What would you choose?
You can't discount the faithful though. Look at the iPods, they have a huge lead in market share when they cost much more than players from Creative, Dell etc. that do the exact same thing just as well.
Sony has a huge legion of playstation faithful. And to less serioius gamers playstation=video games. When I was little you'd here kids say "lets go play Nintendo." Now they say "lets go play playstation."
I just don't think the PS3 will be the success the PS2 was, and therefore the impact on total BD drives will be lessened.
If there's anything I've learned in my 20 years of console gaming it's that for the industry leader to lose their lead they have to screw up immensely.
Atari let the market get flooded with worthless games and Nintendo took over. Nintendo ruled for more than a decade, then they broke a partnership with sony for a CD add on for the SNES and then decided to make the N64 a cart system. Those opened the door for the playstation and the rest is history.
As long as Sony does nothing stupid (meaning they launch within 6 months to a year of the 360 and launch at $399 or below) the PS3 will be just a successful as the PS2 if not moreso.
Brian Shannon
08-28-05, 11:15 AM
Is it really any surprise here that a format war is looming? I am currently pretty happy with my home theater, though I do appreciate HDTV and will embrace the technology beyond my big screen someday. As long as future HD dvd players are backwards compatible, I'll watch this battle from the sidelines by holding onto my wallet.
Right there with you, 3-5 years is my timeframe for an upgrade.
chanster
08-28-05, 11:37 AM
There might be a vocal minority on this board (and a majority on the more home theater forums) but I really don't think the majority of the American public will shell out big bucks for Blue Ray or HD players. Most of them can't take advantage of it with their current TVs and will balk at spending hundreds of dollars for players where DVD players are like $50.
Maybe in about 5 years, this new format will gain traction, but until then, the public will most likely ignore it.
So invest in these new technologies at your own peril.
Josh H
08-28-05, 11:40 AM
Maybe in about 5 years, this new format will gain traction, but until then, the public will most likely ignore it.
I agree totally, except I don't think the new format will gain traction beyond niche market status.
For Joe Six Pack DVDs will look fine even down the road when he finally gets an HD-DVD. He will thus still be unlikely to spend money on an new HD format DVD player and think about rebuying movies etc.
I see the new format being nothing like a marinally more successful Laserdisc being successful only among home theater buffs and movie afficionados.
rexinnih
08-28-05, 12:11 PM
Waiting till the dust settles for me.
Adam Tyner
08-28-05, 12:17 PM
Most of them can't take advantage of it with their current TVs and will balk at spending hundreds of dollars for players where DVD players are like $50.I'm pretty sure the studios know this. :) They may be irrational about copy protection, but they're not stupid; if there's one thing they're capable of doing, it's crunching numbers.
I truly couldn't care less if the American public picks up on it or not -- just as long as enough people buy it for the studios to stick with either or both formats.
nightmaster
08-28-05, 12:21 PM
Yawn.
Agree with many here. This seems like a textbook example of how NOT to introduce a new media format. They're virtually assuring this to be a niche product ala' laserdisc until prices drop in line with standard DVD hardware and titles.
SMB-IL
08-28-05, 12:38 PM
Agreed with most here re: waiting for the dust to settle as I am very happy with current DVD format....
BUT, what if retailers and e-tailers start giving HUGE deals on BR/HD discs like there were when DVD first made it's appearance and people used to brag about how little they paid for a disc(s) with all the discounts? Would more people hop onboard then?
I would not, but then again, I seemed to always miss those "insider" sales in the late 90's anyway and seldom got a lot of discounts on DVDs.
typecase
08-28-05, 12:39 PM
Considering the draconian DRM implementation on these new discs, the format war can continue as long as it likes. Although I was excited about the prospect of an HD version of my favorite films, I won't be upgrading until I can own the film and play it wherever and whenever I please, which means I may have to stick with my beloved DVDs for the forseeable future.
Josh Z
08-28-05, 01:51 PM
BUT, what if retailers and e-tailers start giving HUGE deals on BR/HD discs like there were when DVD first made it's appearance and people used to brag about how little they paid for a disc(s) with all the discounts? Would more people hop onboard then?
I would not, but then again, I seemed to always miss those "insider" sales in the late 90's anyway and seldom got a lot of discounts on DVDs.
The reason you don't still see sales like that is that the retailers lost huge sums of money hand over fist. Many of them went under. I very much doubt we will ever see a repeat of that scenario.
Dazed
08-28-05, 02:13 PM
I still dont have a HD TV and am happy with my dvds as they are.
Vandelay_Inds
08-28-05, 05:58 PM
If you can only take advantage of this thing with an extremely expensive TV, most people won't think about buying it, more so when there is a perfectly good substitute in unexpensive abundance.
Now, if even hardcore HT fanatics from forums like this show no enthusiasm for the format, who the hell will be buying HD crap??
chanster
08-28-05, 06:29 PM
The fundamental problem with the next generation of HD-DVDs, Bluerays, is that they fundamentally don't change the way game DVDS did. DVDs were not only superior to VHS in terms of audio/video, they eliminated some of the most annoying things about VHS - rewinding, wear and size. You can also use DVDs in computers, portable DVD players, etc. - none of which existed for VHS (or at least very big sizes - remember those "portable VHS viewers?"
I firmly believe the next generation of DVDs will be nothing more than a niche market for those who want it..and the inability to come up with a decent standard that allows fair use is going to doom it.
Brian Shannon
08-28-05, 06:47 PM
Is it still a war if no one shows up?
Just Lurking
08-28-05, 11:54 PM
I have heard that most CE companies are upset with DVD players becoming low cost commodities with little profit. If most BR players will be PS3 consoles (most likely subsidized by Sony for awhile), who will buy more expensive stand alone BR players. Will Sony's CE partners in BR make money? Would royalty payments make that much difference?
Jah-Wren Ryel
08-29-05, 12:34 AM
Could be worse. You could have dropped $6,000 on a 60" Sony HDTV a few years ago only to have them yank the carpet out from under you by insisting their HD discs will only be compatible with an input that only the newer model TV's have. Hey, what's $6000 though, right?
And that is why I will wait until one of the formats is permanently cracked, in the same way DVDs are today, so that I can play the movies on my equipment the way I want to. Until then, upscaled DVD, cable and OTA HDTV recordings will do just fine, thank you.
At least with two formats, there is twice as much chance for them to screw up their copy prevention schemes.
Jah-Wren Ryel
08-29-05, 12:39 AM
The reason you don't still see sales like that is that the retailers lost huge sums of money hand over fist. Many of them went under. I very much doubt we will ever see a repeat of that scenario.
Exactly. Those outrageous dvd-deals were not financed by Hollywood - they were paid for with venture capital from the dot-com boomtimes.
Ford Prefect
08-30-05, 01:45 AM
The thing to remember with Blu Ray is that the whole purpose for the format is that Sony co-owns (I believe Phillips is the other half) the format itself, meaning any company that supports it needs to pay a fee to Sony for its use. this is the only reason Sony is pushing the format, and probably the best reason to avoid it.
Dan Average
08-30-05, 02:08 AM
As opposed to Toshiba and NEC, who have nothing but altruistic intentions?
Leon Liew
08-30-05, 03:00 AM
Well obviously they have not learnt their lesson,'Betamax vs VHS' wayback then.Can't
blame them though, who ever wins there's alotta dough to be had and we the consumers are the real losers and as the saying goes 'When elephants fight the grass will suffer'.
Jon2
08-30-05, 04:08 AM
The thing to remember with Blu Ray is that the whole purpose for the format is that Sony co-owns (I believe Phillips is the other half) the format itself, meaning any company that supports it needs to pay a fee to Sony for its use. this is the only reason Sony is pushing the format, and probably the best reason to avoid it.
Well...actually (by all the tech specs) Blu-ray is clearly a superior, next generation optical disc format, which is why it has a lot of support in the computer arena.
In addition, Blu-ray is gaining ever increasing backing. I think one of the reasons is that Sony is showing their Blu-ray supporters that they are willing to play nice, because they learned their lesson from the Beta situation. A good part of the reason Beta lost the tape format war was Sony's actions towards other companies. Sony tried to go it alone. The VHS crowd, on the other hand, welcomed everybody.
Although, I will say that the only reason I won't buy a Sony digital camera is because of their absurd, proprietary file storage sytem. I believe Sony is the only manufacturer that uses their memory sticks. Since I already have two other devices that use SD cards, the only camera I will buy must be able to utilize SD cards.
Spiky
08-30-05, 03:06 PM
There is a solution. And a way to win the war and a way to make people show up for the war. It is called....1080p. Also, marketing, of course.
Sure, this will cement the format(s) as a high-end, LD-esque product. But what else have they got? Most people haven't even HEARD of HD discs, whereas DVD was talked about for years. And most still don't have an HDTV. They need to make this BETTER than HDTV. DVD is better than SDTV or VHS.
In reality, this is probably too soon for the market to support either/both of these discs. So they will probably have to hang around for a few years with few sales as people finally purchase a compatible TV. It will probably be 'who can be patient enough', rather than 'who can win the war by fighting'. We'll see once pricing starts to be announced.
DthRdrX
08-30-05, 03:22 PM
Are you talking about 1080p hardware Spiky? My understanding, based on numbers given to us with the PS3, is that BR is 1080p capable and that Toshiba hasn't announced resolution figures yet for Hd-dvd? Am I wrong with that?
Regardless, I'm betting we won't get actual 1080p releases for awhile, as they will be using single layer discs for 1080i/720p.
joliom
08-30-05, 06:10 PM
What they need = 1080p (both discs and hardware), full backwards compatibility, no DRM (at least none that restricts your ability to watch your DVD's on various machines or tracks your viewing habits), and HD component inputs.
Vandelay_Inds
08-30-05, 10:31 PM
Blu-ray is clearly a superior
I wouldn't be so quick to put my trust behind a company that is so fond of ravaging TV shows and movies on DVD... they have now the potential of ruining not only their catalogue, but the whole home viewing experience. What if they make it near impossible to play discs from other regions? Or introduce some mandatory cropping to fit just one aspect ratio? Or draconian DRM that won't let you play your movie on your PC?
Buy: