NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip - Defiant and tearful Jewish settlers locked their communities' gates and formed human chains to block troops from delivering eviction notices Monday, as
Israel began its historic pullout from the
Gaza Strip after 38 years of occupation.
Police and soldiers waited patiently in the sweltering sun and avoided confrontation at the behest of their commanders. One sobbing settler pleaded with a brigadier general not to evict him before the two men embraced.
"It's a painful and difficult day, but it's a historic day," said Israel's defense minister, Shaul Mofaz.
Over the next three weeks, Israel plans to remove all 21 Jewish settlements from Gaza and four from the
West Bank. The withdrawal marks the first time Israel will dismantle settlements in areas captured in the 1967 Mideast War and claimed by the Palestinians for their future state.
While Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon says the pullout will improve Israel's security, Jewish settlers fiercely oppose the plan and have promised stiff — but nonviolent — resistance.
Israeli troops fired in the air Monday to keep back hundreds of Palestinians, including a few dozen masked gunmen, who were marching toward southern Gaza's Gush Katif bloc of settlements in celebration of the impending withdrawal. The crowd burned a cardboard model of an Israeli settlement, complete with an army watchtower.
<b>
In Gaza City, the Islamic militant group Hamas hung banners proclaiming the pullout is a result of attacks by militants on Israelis. "The blood of martyrs has led to liberation," one banner said.
</b>
Thousands of Israeli troops marched into Gaza's settlements, delivering eviction notices in some communities, but encountering protests in others. <b>The notices gave settlers until midnight Tuesday to leave. If they ignore the deadline, they will be removed by force and could lose up to a third of their government compensation for the move.</b>
Resistance was stiff in Gush Katif. Hundreds of settlers blocked the gates of Neve Dekalim, Gaza's largest settlement, preventing the forces from entering.
Dozens of observant Jewish men, wearing white prayer shawls, held morning prayers at the gate, appealing for divine intervention to block the withdrawal. Dozens of youths wearing orange, the color of defiance, sat on the streets. "Who dares to do battle with God," read one protester's T-shirt.
Troops moved into the community through a second entrance, only to be blocked by large crowds of settlers who burned tires and formed human chains. Protesters formed a ring around the troops, briefly scuffling with one commander who attempted to break through before giving up. The army did not try to force its way in.
Military commanders listened quietly to the settlers' appeals, but said they would not be deterred.
"We will reach every settler, just as we have planned," said Maj. Gen. Dan Harel, Israel's commander over the Gaza region.
<b>
Harel told Army Radio that the operation was going as anticipated. "Our estimation is that by tomorrow night most of the residents will agree to leave," he said.[Consdiering the alternative is to be left behind while the Palestinians move in I suspect he's right ;)]
</b>
Many of Gaza's 8,500 residents have already left, and Mofaz told the Israeli Cabinet that he expected an additional 300 families to leave on Monday. But the army estimates that thousands remain, including some 5,000 hard-liners who have infiltrated Gaza to resist the pullout. Authorities fear some of the extremists could turn violent.
At the isolated Morag settlement, hundreds of people blocked troops at the gate. One man, identified by Israeli media as Liron Zeidan, burst into tears as he pleaded with officers not to remove him from his home.
"I am not your enemy. I served as an officer under you," the man told Brig. Gen. Erez Zuckerman, the commander of the army unit waiting at the gate.
Zuckerman listened and wiped sweat off his brow, then hugged the young man. "We love you, you are part of us," he told the assembled settlers.
In Gan Or, the army reached a deal with residents to send only a small group of senior officers to give the notices to community leaders in an effort to avoid friction.
The operation went more smoothly in the settlements of Nissanit and Elei Sinai, secular communities in northern Gaza that have virtually emptied out.
In Nissanit, four soldiers came to the home of Yitzhak and Avigail Dadon, a couple in their 70s who said they would leave before the forcible removal begins. Yitzhak Dadon said that earlier in the morning, he lowered an Israeli flag that had been fluttering from his roof. Avigail Dadon cried, and a female soldier stood up to hug her.
Two residents entered an abandoned home, took out a hammer and smashed the remaining mirrors, doors and windows. Some homes were covered in graffiti, including one that read "Sharon is a Nazi."
Soldiers also helped settlers pack. In one Nissanit home, troops removed a large sundeck next to a backyard swimming pool, pulling out planks and stacking them up in a pile.
In the Elei Sinai settlement, resident Esti Yamin clutched her eviction notice and cried. When the four-member army team left her home, she said: "They were very kind and I think they are doing all they can do."
However, one of her neighbors put lawn chairs and a TV set on the roof, where he said he would remain with his young daughter until he is removed by force. "Elei Sinai won't fall," read a large sign outside his home.
Soldiers were also giving eviction notices in four West Bank settlements slated for evacuation. They chose not to enter two of the communities, Sanur and Homesh, where hard-line extremists have holed up. The army instead planned to hand the orders to community leaders.
Israel's Cabinet met Monday and gave final approval for the removal of additional Gaza settlements in what was seen as a formality. The plan was already approved by the government and parliament during a bruising yearlong political battle.
With some 50,000 security forces involved, the "disengagement" from Gaza is the nation's largest-ever noncombat operation.
<b>
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said the Gaza pullout is a "historical moment," but that Israel must also hand over the West Bank and east Jerusalem in the future.
</b>
"If they want peace, they must allow Palestinians to achieve their rights," Abbas told the British Broadcasting Corp.
The Palestinians hope the pullout from Gaza will lead to the resumption of peace talks and ultimately full independence in areas captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast War.
<b>
But they fear the withdrawal is a ploy by Sharon to get rid of areas he doesn't consider crucial to Israel while consolidating control of parts of the West Bank, where the vast majority of the 240,000 Jewish settlers live.</b>
Does anyone think this will actually help or is it leading to more problems (both internal conflict as well as the one quote above about how the tactics of the terrorists is working)?
DVD Polizei
08-15-05, 08:48 AM
Yeah, I've been reading about it. It certainly is historical, and I wonder if we will see a few new Israeli terrorist groups rise against the new Gaza inhabitants.
Also, it appears it's going to get pretty ugly, just from Israelis defying the Israeli government.
This was a very bad idea. The Palestinians want all of Israel. The Gaza handover will be basically forgotten by Palestinians, who will just say, "Well, we DESERVE MORE!!!" At the same time, thousands of Israelis are displaced.
What a great way to make things worse.
Mopower
08-15-05, 09:08 AM
It's something you can't blame Bush for. Probably why it's not being talked about in this forum.
DVD Polizei
08-15-05, 09:30 AM
Actually, Bush did want a Gaza pullout. He seems to think Palestinians and Abbas (or whoever is the current man in charge) will stop fighting when they have a piece of land that was originally theirs (interpretations vary) several centuries ago. In addition, Bush has agreed to $2 Billion and more in "resettlement" money for the Israeli Gaza inhabitants.
If that isn't a Bush involvement, I don't know what is.
I posted about this several months ago, but nobody wanted to discuss it. Probably because we've already gone a few rounds with Palestinians and Israel a while back.
sracer
08-15-05, 09:31 AM
Check out this video...
http://israelblessgod.com/GushKatif.wmv
It makes it more personal.
Actually, Bush did want a Gaza pullout. He seems to think Palestinians and Abbas (or whoever is the current man in charge) will stop fighting when they have a piece of land that was originally theirs (interpretations vary) several centuries ago.
Yes, it had been reported a while ago that Bush wanted to go back to the 1948 lines. Much to the puzzlement of many Evangelical Christians.
General Zod
08-15-05, 09:37 AM
I'm completely against this. History shows that all that will be accomplished by this is that it will give Palestine more land that they don't need, and they will simply use it to launch attacks deeper into Israel. Trust me, they aren't going to say "Wow, this sure was nice of Israel to give us the Gaza strip back. OK nevermind. Jerusalem isn't a target of ours anymore."
B.A.
08-15-05, 09:39 AM
Yes, it had been reported a while ago that Bush wanted to go back to the 1948 lines. Much to the puzzlement of many Evangelical Christians.Why were they puzzled? Do they live there? Do they have many relatives over there? How does a pull-back to the original boundaries of the nation of Israel concern Evangelicals? :hscratch:
sracer
08-15-05, 09:43 AM
Why were they puzzled? Do they live there? Do they have many relatives over there? How does a pull-back to the original boundaries of the nation of Israel concern Evangelicals? :hscratch:
I'm not going to try to explain the intricacies of the issue in this thread... but it has to do with what the Bible says about Israel.
B.A.
08-15-05, 10:10 AM
I should have known it had something to do w/ the Bible.
:p
Is there an established Evangelical population in Israel?
Thor Simpson
08-15-05, 10:21 AM
Let's hope this leads somewhere.
sracer
08-15-05, 10:23 AM
Let's hope this leads somewhere.
It will... but not a good place. :(
B.A.
08-15-05, 10:28 AM
Let's hope this leads somewhere.Due South?
ddd
08-15-05, 10:33 AM
Does anyone think this will actually help or is it leading to more problems (both internal conflict as well as the one quote above about how the tactics of the terrorists is working)?
This unilateral withdrawal will probably lead to economical catastrophe and increased popularity of Hamas. Sharon should have planned the withdrawal carefully together with elected Palestinian leaders and give them credit for it. Now it indeed looks like terrorism is the reason for this and not the "Road Map" as should be.
Also keep in mind that this withdrawal concerns only about 9000 settlers, while over 400 000 Jewish settlers still remain in illegal settlements on Palestinian land. This should be the beginning of the peace process not the end.
Geofferson
08-15-05, 11:15 AM
I've been following this at the Jerusalem Post (www.jpost.com), which is a pretty good source for late-breaking news on this for those interested.
kvrdave
08-15-05, 11:27 AM
Very interesting that Sharon ever agreed to this. Probably goes to show that any political leader in Israel eventually feels that there is nothing that can really be done.
I think it is a bad move, personally.
Pharoh
08-15-05, 12:06 PM
Very interesting that Sharon ever agreed to this. Probably goes to show that any political leader in Israel eventually feels that there is nothing that can really be done.
I think it is a bad move, personally.
It's demographics, Israel has no choice.
General Zod
08-15-05, 12:28 PM
It's demographics, Israel has no choice.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Makes no sense to me at all.
I think history will prove that this was a bad move, and Israel will eventually take over the land again for their own security. Meanwhile it sure was nice of Israel to take over the land, build homes and settlements on which is otherwise another barren patch of ugly desert, and then give it back to the Palestinians. No wonder Hamas claims a victory, I think they absolutely won. This just sends a signal that their attacks are working and they will now move into Gaza and use it as a base to strike further into Israel. Remember, their goal is to make sure Palestine extends to the sea - Israel just helped them get a little closer.
Myster X
08-15-05, 02:03 PM
This will not end militant attacks or suicide bombing.
Pharoh
08-15-05, 02:09 PM
Can you explain what you mean by this? Makes no sense to me at all.
I think history will prove that this was a bad move, and Israel will eventually take over the land again for their own security. Meanwhile it sure was nice of Israel to take over the land, build homes and settlements on which is otherwise another barren patch of ugly desert, and then give it back to the Palestinians. No wonder Hamas claims a victory, I think they absolutely won. This just sends a signal that their attacks are working and they will now move into Gaza and use it as a base to strike further into Israel. Remember, their goal is to make sure Palestine extends to the sea - Israel just helped them get a little closer.
It actually has been one of the leading arguments voiced in the Israeli coalition. Within ten to twenty years any Israeli presence in Gaza will be untenable, there simply will be too few of them and far too many Palestinians. (Check out the population growth and estimates of both Gaza and the West Bank). The only way for Israel to maintain settlements there would be to have a very large scale security presence, and to relocate a sizeable number of Palestinians. Both are impossible.
classicman2
08-15-05, 02:14 PM
Pessimism from this member.
Aldarion
08-15-05, 02:16 PM
I think the demographics part is that Palestinians will soon become the majority in Israel (including West Bank/Gaza).
Well, I hope there isn't any violence over this. The Israeli soldiers are just doing their job.
I can understand the demographics point, one good thing I can see coming from this is that Benjamin Netanyahu might become prime minister again. This really does remind me of how a minority can overrun a city causing the crime and poverty to rise and the whites or the majority race have no choice but to move. It has happened to many of America's major cities.
DVD Polizei
08-15-05, 03:11 PM
What's going on in Israel right now, is like any one of us being told to leave our homes because the state says a particular ethnic group once had land in the US many thousands of years ago, and it's better to appease these poor stupid people, instead of telling them to fuck-off and get a life.
Pharoh
08-15-05, 03:27 PM
What's going on in Israel right now, is like any one of us being told to leave our homes because the state says a particular ethnic group once had land in the US many thousands of years ago, and it's better to appease these poor stupid people, instead of telling them to fuck-off and get a life.
I hadn't realised it was really that simple.
classicman2
08-15-05, 03:46 PM
I never realized it was that simple either.
I don't believe Israel can make enough concessions (and still have defensible borders) to the Palestinians that will be acceptable to Hamas.
The only way to satisfy Hamas, IMO, is for the Jewish State to cease to exist.
General Zod
08-15-05, 04:16 PM
The only way to satisfy Hamas, IMO, is for the Jewish State to cease to exist.
Exactly my point. Hamas has even said so themselves.
Aldarion
08-15-05, 05:05 PM
What Israel needs to do is give the Palestinians a fair shot at making Gaza work by figuring out a way to have trade routes between there and the West Bank, etc... An improving economy would go a fair ways to reduce the numbers of youths drawn to Hamas and the like.
One advantage of pulling out entirely is that it would likely make it easier to launch reprisals if anything happens.
Aldarion
08-15-05, 05:06 PM
Exactly my point. Hamas has even said so themselves.
Yeah, Hamas is incompatible with peace.
Thor Simpson
08-15-05, 05:21 PM
Yeah, Hamas is incompatible with peace.
Those <i>terrorists</i>!!!
DVD Polizei
08-15-05, 06:08 PM
I hadn't realised it was really that simple.
Well, apparently some government officials do think it's that simple.
Appease the whining and complaining crowds and hopefully they will just go away.
The US does the same thing. The more you cry and throw a temper, the more you are rewarded, regardless how insane your conditions are.
E70f
08-15-05, 06:20 PM
The US does the same thing. The more you cry and throw a temper, the more you are rewarded, regardless how insane your conditions are.
Yep, see the $2,000,000,000 of our money Bush is giving to the people leaving Gaza :rolleyes:
OldDude
08-15-05, 06:22 PM
IThe only way to satisfy Hamas, IMO, is for the Jewish State to cease to exist.
No, you could send them all (Hamas) to Paradise. That appears to make them happy too.
DVD Polizei
08-15-05, 07:27 PM
Yep, see the $2,000,000,000 of our money Bush is giving to the people leaving Gaza :rolleyes:
You're missing this entire connection.
1) Palestinians whine and complain
2) The US & Foreign Affairs pressures Israel to do something
3) Israel says, "So, what can you do for us if we do that for you?"
4) US Replies: "$2 Billion, and more to come..."
We're not giving money to Israel because they deserve it. We're doing it because we are trying to alleviate a lot of violence in the area due to Israelis being ousted from their homes....due to Palestinians whining and complaining that this is, for some reason, preventing them from creating an official state.
Yeah, ok. Whatever Mr. Palestinian Dude. Let's see how great of a nation you will build after you occupy Gaza. My guess. It will be a garbage dump within a few years, and living and thinking primitively will still be alive and well.
Nazgul
08-16-05, 12:56 AM
Yeah, ok. Whatever Mr. Palestinian Dude. Let's see how great of a nation you will build after you occupy Gaza. My guess. It will be a garbage dump within a few years, and living and thinking primitively will still be alive and well.
On this, I agree. They're going nowhere. Of course they'll still blame Israel and the US.
hahn
08-16-05, 01:46 AM
I don't know if this will immediately make things better, but I think it's a step in the right direction. A direction towards COMPROMISE. Up until now, no one made any serious attempts at it.
I wish I could say this was done out of the goodness of Sharon's heart, but I think they did it more out of necessity. The Jewish population simply isn't increasing quickly enough to match the increase in Palestinians. It's a simple numbers game, and Israel's government finally saw that their uncompromised goals were an impossibility.
I think the Palestinians will be suspicious, but I hope eventually they take from this the realization that they too must compromise. There is no perfect solution for either side. So all they're left with is compromise. Without that, the only other option is to continue killing each other.
hahn
08-16-05, 01:59 AM
Exactly my point. Hamas has even said so themselves.
People say a lot of things. It doesn't always mean they won't change their minds given different circumstances.
Ariel Sharon initiated the Jewish settlement thing. Times have changed, and so has Sharon.
NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip - Israeli security forces clashed with hundreds of opponents of
Israel's withdrawal from the
Gaza Strip on Tuesday, arresting dozens of people in the roughest confrontation between troops and settlers since the start of the operation.
ADVERTISEMENT
The confrontation came hours ahead of a midnight deadline for all Jewish settlers to leave the Gaza Strip voluntarily or face forcible removal. Officials said they were hopeful many settlers would leave the area before the deadline, but also issued a stern warning of tough action against anyone who resists.
"We will make every effort, the army and the police, to have law and order in this process and anyone who acts illegally will be treated according to the law," Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz told a news conference. He said he expected at least half of Gaza's 8,500 residents to be out by midnight.
The army said security forces detained 50 Israelis for clashing with police and soldiers attempting to help Gaza settlers leave, mostly in Neve Dekalim.
The three-week operation to evacuate Gaza began Monday with the distribution of eviction notices. Israel plans to remove all 21 settlements from Gaza and four from the
West Bank. It is the first time Israel has removed veteran settlements from either area, which are claimed by the Palestinians for a future, independent state.
<b>
On Tuesday, Palestinian militants marched through the streets of a town in southern Gaza flanking the settlements, and vowed the Israeli withdrawal would be the first step toward eliminating Israel.
</b>
By midday, three Gaza settlements and two West Bank communities were empty, while five other Gaza settlements rapidly thinning out. But residents and their supporters in several communities appeared to be digging in for a fight.
Jewish settlers have vowed to resist the pullout peacefully. But officials estimate some 5,000 Jewish extremists from outside Gaza, many of them fervently religious teenagers, have infiltrated the settlements in recent weeks.
After failing to enter Gaza's largest settlement, Neve Dekalim, on Monday, police moved in early Tuesday and dismantled the main entrance gate to clear the way for some 120 moving trucks to enter. Officers used an electric saw to cut through the gate, then dragged the metal barrier away and threw it on the side of a road.
Within hours, a large crowd of predominantly young people gathered near the gate and refused to let the trucks enter the settlement. When security forces tried to push back the crowd, scuffles erupted. Protesters wearing the orange color of pullout opponents pelted police with plastic water bottles while security forces put a water cannon on standby.
Police said they carried off several flailing settlers by grabbing them by their arms and legs. More than an hour later, traffic remained at a standstill.
"If the settlement is struggling to survive, then everybody should stay," said Libby Weinberger, a U.S.-born Israeli who came to Neve Dekalim from the Israeli town of Raanana.
As the standoff continued, a family of settlers tried to leave Neve Dekalim in a jeep carrying four mattresses on the roof and pulling a small trailer. A young girl inside was crying as the crowd prevented the vehicle from moving.
Avner Shimoni, a leader in the Gush Katif settlement bloc, said leaders supported the right of anyone to leave voluntarily.
Much of the opposition appeared to be coming from outsiders who have evaded army roadblocks and infiltrated Gaza in recent weeks. Police spokesman Avi Zelba said about 500 people illegally in Gaza were arrested overnight, and dozens were caught trying to enter from Israel.
Brig. Gen. Gershon Hacohen, the army commander in the settlement, said the standoff was a sign of what lies ahead. "There will be places where it will be easier and there are places where it will require many more forces," he told Israel TV.
In the isolated Gaza settlement of Morag, leaders screamed out codewords over a loudspeaker ordering residents to go into hiding — preparations for the arrival of Israeli troops. About one-third of the settlement's 220 residents had left by early Tuesday, and many others were packing up. However, the army said an estimated 300 hardline outsiders remained holed up in the settlement.
Elsewhere in Gaza, residents of the Bedolah settlement torched three cars and vowed to burn down their houses ahead of the withdrawal.
In central Gaza, the hardline settlement of Netzarim showed no signs of preparing to leave. Residents spent the night in a communal celebration, singing and dancing and waving orange flags.
"The party was the focus of many energies that exploded out ... Here it explodes with happiness," said resident Eyal Vered.
In a televised speech Monday evening, Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon praised Gaza's settlers as "pioneers," but insisted that it is time for Israel to leave the area after 38 years of occupation.
"We cannot hold Gaza for good," he said. "More that a million Palestinians live there, doubling their numbers every generation."
Sharon also urged Palestinian leaders to control extremists. "To an outstretched hand of peace, we will respond with an olive branch, but fire will be met by fire more intense than ever," he said.
In the Palestinian town of Khan Younis, Palestinian children rushed toward the wall of a nearby Jewish settlement and placed a flag from the Hamas militant group on it — prompting Israeli soldiers to fire warning shots.
Palestinian police struggled to keep the children away from the wall, an almost daily occurrence this last week. The Hamas rally in southern Gaza occurred as some 2,000 people, most of them children and teens, marched through town to celebrate Israel's pullout from Gaza.
Also marching were some 200 hundred masked gunmen carrying rocket launchers and machine guns.
"This is only the first step to liberating all of Palestine including Jerusalem east and west and every inch of Palestinian land from the sea to the river," said Hamas spokesman Younis al-Astal.
<b>
Hamas and other militant groups have been seeking to portray the Israeli withdrawal, which got underway this week, as a victory for violent resistance. Israel fears that perception could lead to further militant attacks after the pullout, undermining efforts to jump start Mideast peacemaking.
</b>
Palestinian leaders have vowed to maintain law and order after the Israeli pullout. On Tuesday, Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia and other Palestinian leaders began a campaign to clean up Gaza's streets under the slogan, "Gaza Clean and Beautiful."
Nazgul
08-16-05, 02:26 PM
On Tuesday, Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia and other Palestinian leaders began a campaign to clean up Gaza's streets under the slogan, "Gaza Clean and Beautiful."
Who'll pay for the slogan change in a few years to "Gaza, Palestinian shithole"?
Thor Simpson
08-16-05, 02:36 PM
People say a lot of things. It doesn't always mean they won't change their minds given different circumstances.
The problem is... changing political circumstances generally doesn't change religious views. The problem arises when a religious view incorporates the <i>elimination of a people</i>. We can tolerate them politically all we want... but appeasing them will most likely not shatter their objectives. We'll see where this leads in the next few years. Something has to be done to keep the radicals from holding such power... a moderate Palestinian leadership that will accept having Israel on the same planet and the downfall of Hamas as a major entity. We're already seeing this spun as a victory for violent opposition, for crying out loud. It's hard for peace to work when one side really doesn't even want it. Concessions only work when there is a common goal.
Let's hope this is a step in a positive direction long-term. I do support the effort and think it's a huge move for Israel. Let's hope the Palestinians respect it.
shifrbv
08-16-05, 06:10 PM
Here are a couple of problems I have with the situation over there and maybe someone here can help clear them up.
1. Israeli's were living on land that was "taken" during the Israeli war in 1967 (according to an article I read). If true, is there any other occurance like this in modern history of a first-world type country taking land and then occupying it (especially in a violence-prone area like the ME)? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. It doesn't seem too politically-correct. I can't see US citizens going to form communes in Iraq or Afghanistan, then crying when those people hated their guts because they had all the money in a few decades. This is what the Israeli situation seems like to me. Israel did a smash and grab and now they seem to be paying for it in some type of cosmic karma-type way because they have been the only ones to benefit from the situation.
2. Why are people feeling sorry for the Israelis? We have people (alot of which are white when most people there are brown) who moved to an area (a dangerous area), and decided to invest alot of capital and build enterprises, and then they cry when these are threatened by the much poorer and more numerous locals. If I move to the ghetto and decide I want to have a multi-million dollar mansion with all kinds of cool stuff, and I'll build a wall and have security forces, it probably still won't keep the gangbangers from trying to find some way to harrass me all the time. It's not smart. What sort of insane person would put themselves in the middle of such a scene and think there would be a "good" outcome? What kind of a person would be content to have their wealth surrounded by such poverty? Israel is exceedingly rich in an area where most are incredibly poor (due to their horribly corrupt governments, but nonetheless in dire poverty). The fact that Israel is building walls to protect that wealth knowing full well what is going on outside explains to me why this is happening to them. What comes around, goes around.
I feel bad about it, but I think the Israelis better regroup and think about what the future holds for them. In such a scenario, their and their children's children's days are surely numbered or will be plagued with misery forever.
nemein
08-16-05, 06:17 PM
Israel did a smash and grab and now they seem to be paying for it in some type of cosmic karma-type way.
IIRC it wasn't the Israelies who started the war so a "smash and grab" is really a misnomer.
OldDude
08-16-05, 06:20 PM
Here are a couple of problems I have with the situation over there and maybe someone here can help clear them up.
1. Israeli's were living on land that was "taken" during the Israeli war in 1967 (according to an article I read). If true, is there any other occurance like this in modern history of a first-world type country taking land and then occupying it (especially in a violence-prone area like the ME)? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. It doesn't seem too politically-correct. I can't see US citizens going to form communes in Iraq or Afghanistan, then crying when those people hated their guts because they had all the money in a few decades. This is what the Israeli situation seems like to me. Israel did a smash and grab and now they seem to be paying for it in some type of cosmic karma-type way because they have been the only ones to benefit from the situation.
Well, the UN map left the Israelis with pretty undefendable borders. When the various Arab armies and some of the Palestinians ran across what is now the West Bank and Gaza in 1948 and attacked Israel, the Israelis eventually beat them back, and hung on to the land because the borders were more defendable.
After 3-4 more Arab wars, finally in the 1967 war, Israel took a lot of land, all of the Sinai to the Suez Canal, the Golan heights, etc. They eventually gave most of it back in exchange for promises of peace that the Arabs failed to keep.
Had the Israelis started the war to gain territory then your claim might have merit. However, they actually ended the war by defending themselves, so the Arabs wouldn't kill them all ( 6?? times). People seem to forget that.
shifrbv
08-16-05, 06:38 PM
Had the Israelis started the war to gain territorym your claim might have merit
But didn't the Israeli's essentially "start the conflict" by moving in in the first place? This is what I have a problem with. White people made all the rules and just expected the brown locals to live with the end result. There was a guy in one of the articles who has been living there since almost the beginning of Israel who originally came from Cleveland. This is what I'm talking about. What are people like that doing over there? Israel is formed in 1948 and it doesn't take long before there are major conflicts going on which seem to have no end. And all because people from Cleveland think they have a God-given right to have a greenhouse in the middle of the desert?
These are a hodge-podge of peoples who really don't fit in with the culture over there. It would be like some of the multi-cultural hippie communes from the 60's moving into your town and using their influence and wealth to take over. If you have alot of poor, trailer park, gun-toting, klan participating, rednecks living there, there's likely going to be alot of trouble with the new folks in the neighborhood.
nemein
08-16-05, 06:43 PM
But didn't the Israeli's essentially "start the conflict" by moving in in the first place?
If you're getting to that point I think it was the UN/world that started the conflict by giving the Jews a homeland after a collective sense of shame/guilt of not doing jack to prevent the holocaust. I think even those lines/areas were drawn up based on what happened w/ colonialism of the area before WW2 but I don't know that for certain. So I guess you can also blame the English and French for their colonialistic natures as well ;)
Ranger
08-16-05, 06:55 PM
It would be like some of the multi-cultural hippie communes from the 60's moving into your town and using their influence and wealth to take over. If you have alot of poor, trailer park, gun-toting, klan participating, rednecks living there, there's likely going to be alot of trouble with the new folks in the neighborhood.
Yep, the majority of Palestinians are just as racist and hate-filled as the KKK members are. That certainly is crystal clear.
OldDude
08-16-05, 06:57 PM
Had the Israelis started the war to gain territorym your claim might have merit
But didn't the Israeli's essentially "start the conflict" by moving in in the first place?
No the UN divided the land in a two-state plan for Israelis and Palestinians. The day after, all the Arab nations ran across the Palestinian lands got some more help from the Palestinians, and invaded the Israeli land established by the UN. The UN and everyone else wrung their hands but did noting (much like the Sudan and several other places currently). The Arab plan was to drive them into the sea and kill them all. The Arabs lost.
The Israelis never gave back Gaza or West Bank. Those borders are very similar to the 1949 armistice following the war. In other wars, they have conquered territory (taking it from the aggressor in the war) and giving it back. Had they used the Arab approach of killing them all, we wouldn't have a problem. :)
General Zod
08-17-05, 05:25 PM
This isn't going well. Sure is hard to watch the coverage of this on the news, especially since I have family over there. If this had a chance of working i'd probably feel much better about it.
kvrdave
08-17-05, 07:56 PM
I think the Palestinians will be suspicious, but I hope eventually they take from this the realization that they too must compromise. There is no perfect solution for either side. So all they're left with is compromise. Without that, the only other option is to continue killing each other.
I really hope you are right. But the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and that is not comforting in this circumstance. I think this will actually make Hamas more bold, and increase violence. But I hope I am proven wrong. :)
General Zod
08-17-05, 08:04 PM
And talk about breaking a campaign promise. Most of the folks in Israel voted for Sharon because he promised to get tough on the Palestinians and stop making concessions. Oy Vey!
hahn
08-17-05, 10:20 PM
I really hope you are right. But the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and that is not comforting in this circumstance. I think this will actually make Hamas more bold, and increase violence. But I hope I am proven wrong. :)
Now who's being pessimistic? ;)
I'm always more hopeful when one side of a conflict takes the courageous step of making concessions. I think it takes more courage to make concessions than to keep a war stance, because you have to risk looking weak for the greater good.
nemein
08-17-05, 10:31 PM
I'm always more hopeful when one side of a conflict takes the courageous step of making concessions. I think it takes more courage to make concessions than to keep a war stance, because you have to risk looking weak for the greater good.
I agree, I think the problem is in this case (and the rhetoric is already matching it) the weakness is going to be looked upon as a sign they (Hamas, etc) are winning and the campaign of terror is going to continue. Concessions only work if the other side is willing to respond in kind, I don't see any indicators yet that they are at this point.
wmansir
08-17-05, 10:58 PM
I saw a Palestinian official on CNN Sunday admit that they cannot control Gaza once Israel completes it's withdrawal and they will not be able to do much to stop Hamas from controlling the region. He placed the blame on Israel for limiting the arms of the Palestine police forces. He suggested Hamas was starting to reforming itself into a peacful organization, but it will take time.
hahn
08-18-05, 03:28 AM
I agree, I think the problem is in this case (and the rhetoric is already matching it) the weakness is going to be looked upon as a sign they (Hamas, etc) are winning and the campaign of terror is going to continue. Concessions only work if the other side is willing to respond in kind, I don't see any indicators yet that they are at this point.
It's important to remember that the actions of a few do not always represent the desires of the whole. I'm sure there will be incidents in the days ahead, but I think judgement of the Palestinian people should be put on hold temporarily and at least give the government some time to take charge of their own people. All of us must put the past behind us, or the effort is doomed to fail before it begins. Responsibility lies on BOTH sides, even with this first move.
nemein
08-18-05, 06:24 AM
It's important to remember that the actions of a few do not always represent the desires of the whole.
I know, but remember it only take a few people to really screw things up as well. It all depends upon what the "the whole" does about the few people and so far it doesn't seem that "the whole" has been too interested in putting pressure on Hamas, etal... to change their ways. I hope that'll change too, but I'm not holding my breath.
scottall
08-18-05, 10:03 AM
This synagogue footage is incredible. Water cannons and storage cabins are reminiscent of a couple of historical situations.
Nick Danger
08-19-05, 06:56 AM
I haven't seen the footage, but the Israeli army has a lot of experience in forcing people to move.
Shifbrv, some time in the mid 20th century many jews decided that they needed a safe haven, a place they can call their own and defend against all comers. It's a deep emotional need. Logical arguments about right and wrong will never affect them.
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