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Is Zelda II an RPG?

Old 07-10-05, 11:47 PM
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Is Zelda II an RPG?

This is my roundabout way of asking, what are the essential characteristics of an RPG? I would say Zelda and all of its sequels (except II) are action-adventure games, but they're often seen as RPGs, and there are certainly a lot of cross-over elements. The only real discernable difference between Zelda II and the rest of the series is that you earn experience points and gain levels. Is some form of leveling the only thing that sets apart action/action-adventure games from RPGs?
Old 07-11-05, 08:40 AM
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No, Zelda games are not RPGs, not even Zelda II. You are correct in that they are action-adventure games as those two elements are the focus of the game. RPGs are the most poorly defined genre in the video game world. To me, an RPG would be a game that's main focus is the story along with heavy elements from the table-top games where the genre's name was lifted. Heavy weapon and item management, detailed statistic and leveling up, etc. Elements from the earliest video RPGs have made themselves mainstay in almost every genre today but there's a definite difference in focus from games like Final Fantasy VII and Dragon Warrior VII to games like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The later two's focus is on the adventure aspect while the initial two's focus is their D&D roots. Hopefully I am making sense here.

Anyway, I feel people calling Zelda games RPGs are idiots simply because that label is being placed there only because the of game's fantasy setting; and setting does not dictate genre. These people would not call Metroid games RPGs even though they are extremely similar styled games with vastly different settings. I once brought to task the question of "What makes Zelda an RPG that isn't present in Metroid?" to someone making the previously discussed claim to which his response was "Zelda has swords."
Old 07-11-05, 09:05 AM
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Well, I was going to say that Zelda 2 was an action-RPG, but I don't want to be called an idiot, so I'll conform and say it's an adventure game.
Old 07-11-05, 09:06 AM
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I guess I wasn't finished.

Now, I'm not trying to say my way of defining a game is the de facto standard, but I do think it makes a lot of sense. Concerning RPGs in particular, I've seen people try to define RPGs based on extremely simple and usually ancillary aspects. Swords, sadly, for example. Devil May Cry has swords which is definitely an action game. How about just a fantasy setting? Ghouls & Ghosts, fantasy setting, major action game. I've heard one or two people claim random encounters define an RPG. Lunar for Playstation does not have random encounters, but it's an RPG. Super Adventure Island II has random encounters, very much NOT an RPG. Of course, the most common is that experience and leveling up defines an RPG. Look, almost EVERY game has some point of leveling up even it's not explicably drawn out to you in those exact words and shown with numbers. And even for games that DO draw it out for you, Guardian Legend is a shooter whose scoring system involves leveling up. This is why it's ridiculous to try to define a game on such basic premises, especially in this day and age where games usually fuse elements from several genres of old.. but even those games that borrow elements from other genres, there's always a focus most prominent and I usually define the games genre on that focus.
Old 07-11-05, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by joeblow69
Well, I was going to say that Zelda 2 was an action-RPG
Based on what? Because you earn experience? Would you consider Bionic Commando an RPG?
Old 07-11-05, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by PixyJunket
Based on what? Because you earn experience? Would you consider Bionic Commando an RPG?
Pixy, I'm not going to get into this argument with you. I've already seen the errors of my ways, and have repented. Zelda 2 is an adventure game.
Old 07-11-05, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by joeblow69
Pixy, I'm not going to get into this argument with you. I've already seen the errors of my ways, and have repented. Zelda 2 is an adventure game.
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just pointing out how loose that particular definition is. I'm sorry if I hit the wrong button. I just have an added appreciation for genre definition based on the work I did last year trying to create an NES/SNES game database and trying to come up with a solid way to classify the primary genre for each game.
Old 07-11-05, 09:42 AM
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Do you consider Skies of Arcadia an RPG?
Old 07-11-05, 11:28 AM
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Well, Zelda II is the most RPG-ish of the series. On the main traveling scenes the game reacts almost exactly like Dragon Warrior or Phantasy Star (at least considered RPGs at the time, although maybe now they fall out of the "generally accepted definition") except when the combat sequence kicks in. Where it mainly differs are the towns and the castles. It's basically the bastard son of an RPG and a platform game.
Old 07-11-05, 11:41 AM
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Isn't every video game an RPG? I mean, you're playing a role that isn't you...
Old 07-11-05, 11:44 AM
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It's an Action-RPG, as it has all the leveling up, experience points, etc.

The other zelda games are adventure games in the console terms.
Old 07-11-05, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffdsmith
Do you consider Skies of Arcadia an RPG?
Skies of Arcadia is most certainly an RPG. It's practically the definition of the term. It even has turn-based battles.

Pixy, using your definition, what's the difference between an action-adventure game and an action-RPG? In my mind, the only thing that stands between the two genres is some kind of experience system (not necessarily with points), where players get better by fighting enemies -- as opposed to, say, earning a heart container after a boss battle. And Zelda II has an experience system. So wouldn't that make it an RPG, or are there other criteria?

I've heard it proposed that these games that sort of blur the line fall into their own cross-genre: adventure-RPGs. The recent Castlevania games would presumably fall into this category as well.

Last edited by Breakfast with Girls; 07-11-05 at 03:40 PM.
Old 07-11-05, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls
And Zelda II has an experience system. So wouldn't that make it an RPG, or are there other criteria?
Do you consider the following games RPGs?

Bionic Commando
Guardian Legend
Mighty Final Fight
Pac-Man
Galaga
Old 07-11-05, 04:21 PM
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RPG=turn based battles and experience system

Action RPG (or adventure RPG)=active battles and experience system.

Adventure games (in console terms)= rpg like quest with active battles but no experience system.

Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior and the like are RPGs.

Zelda 2, Castlevania Symphony of the Night and the like are Action RPGs.

Zelda, Metroid and the like are Adventure Games.

That's how I (and the gaming press for the most part) use the terminology anyway and I don't really care whether anyone agrees or disagrees.
Old 07-11-05, 06:19 PM
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I would consider Zelda II an Action RPG.

If any of you have ever played Faxanadu, it was an NES game that plays very similar to Zelda II and I consider that to be an Action RPG.

In my opinion any game that involves leveling/developing a character by gaining experience is an element of an RPG and should be considered as one even if its not one completely. In Zelda II you gain experience and you gain levels.

Last edited by Setzer; 07-11-05 at 06:48 PM.
Old 07-11-05, 07:24 PM
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I don't know how on earth turn based battles became a requirement for rpg status. What about tales of symphonia, star ocean, jade empire?

I'm pretty fuzzy on trying to define rpg genre, outside of pen & paper anyway, and I think pixy has the right on this. To say an rpg is just about gaining experience and leveling is clearly ridiculous and many different genres these days include similar forms of progression.

My thinking is that a computer rpg should allow significant character customisation, both looks, class, and alignment (either d&d, or in game morality). Also there should be at least some level of flexibility in 1) how you complete the game, 2) how you play the game (eg. good or evil, fierce warrior or back stabbing thief). So I guess, an ideal rpg should allow me to be who I want to be, and play how I want to play. Fable is at least an attempt to implement this by allowing different play styles and the way your avatar evolves (although I thought the game sucked ).

So therefore, almost no console "rpg" qualifies as a true computer role playing game, and some pc "rpgs" as well. Console rpgs are really more like traditional adventure games where you basically play the game on rails, and generally have very limited customisation on both your character, and how you complete quests/tasks.
Old 07-11-05, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pinata242
Isn't every video game an RPG? I mean, you're playing a role that isn't you...
[insert ohsnap.gif here]
Old 07-11-05, 08:05 PM
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Oh man this takes me back, in 2001 i was on the Nintendoland Forums the biggest at the time next to actual nintendo.com and the utter flame wars between Zelda RPG or not still reside in me. It definitely is not an rpg suffice to what rpg fans say, heck if you think its because you can equip/dequip items well Metroid, Super Mario 3 and Megaman are all rpgs then too.
Old 07-11-05, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer
Oh man this takes me back, in 2001 i was on the Nintendoland Forums the biggest at the time next to actual nintendo.com and the utter flame wars between Zelda RPG or not still reside in me. It definitely is not an rpg suffice to what rpg fans say, heck if you think its because you can equip/dequip items well Metroid, Super Mario 3 and Megaman are all rpgs then too.
Just to clarify things, we're talking about ONE particular game in the Zelda series and that's Zelda II for the NES not all of the Zelda games ever made. And it has nothing to do with the fact you can equip/unequip items. In Zelda II you actually gained levels by earning experience points. You didn't do that in Metroid, SM3 and Megaman did you? No. So, those games wouldn't be considered an "Action RPG", at least in my book.

Last edited by Setzer; 07-11-05 at 08:32 PM.
Old 07-11-05, 09:07 PM
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Zelda II is an RPG. People not calling it an RPG are idiots!
Old 07-11-05, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PixyJunket
Do you consider the following games RPGs?

Bionic Commando
Guardian Legend
Mighty Final Fight
Pac-Man
Galaga
I fail to see how this post is relevant to this thread.

I never said an experience system was the sole determinant of whether a game is an RPG or not. In combination with other aspects, I think it is a necessary component. A car has to have a motor and wheels, but several other things have motors and wheels.

Power-ups are not an experience system.
Old 07-12-05, 12:36 AM
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It's absolutely an RPG of some variant, or at least has all the key features of an RPG. Any argument over how battles are simulated being a make or break factor for being considered an RPG is absurd.

All the Zelda games have always been RPG-lites, sharing many major game-play points in the idea of advancing a character over time, but without "levels". But Zelda 2's inclusion of leveling... Well, it's more of an RPG than a lot of games I've played that were toted as being pure RPGs. I first played it when I was 5 or 6, and I thought I was playing another Dragon Warrior game at first instead of a sequel to Zelda. From the talking to towns people, the way of traveling, leveling etc... Something I haven't seen brought up yet, but the magic system was introduced to Zelda with this game, something fundamentally in the realm of an RPG game.

People used only to RPG's made today might disagree as the genre has evolved quite a bit, but someone that played Dragon Warrior, FF, and others on the NES... The answer to this thread's question is pretty obvious.
Old 07-12-05, 12:42 AM
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The best games are the ones that cross genres. the rpg genre is constantly evolving, as is the adventure and action games by incorporation rpg elements in them.

but to make things simple, FF3 is an rpg, zelda is an adventure game, Gran Turismo is a racing game, soul calibur II is a fighting game, Mario is a platformer (or action game i guess?) . everyone happy? this is all based on my opinion of course
Old 07-12-05, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Setzer
Just to clarify things, we're talking about ONE particular game in the Zelda series and that's Zelda II for the NES not all of the Zelda games ever made. And it has nothing to do with the fact you can equip/unequip items. In Zelda II you actually gained levels by earning experience points. You didn't do that in Metroid, SM3 and Megaman did you? No. So, those games wouldn't be considered an "Action RPG", at least in my book.
You also gain experience in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Circle of the Moon, Harmony of Dissonance, Aria of Sorrow.
Old 07-12-05, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior and the like are RPGs.
despite popular belief, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest is not even a game.

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