bookcase3

Let me preface by saying that I'm no audiophile, but appreciate good sound, good picture, and all that jazz.

I've got a 5-year-old Kenwood 600-watt receiver that works perfectly well (as do the accompanying 5 speakers), except for the remote control, which hasn't worked for the past two years. I've decided to move on and find something new, but don't know if I should focus on just replacing the receiver (around $200) or spend a couple hundred more for a home theater system, in which the DVD player seems to have a built in receiver/amplifier. Since I have a very good DVD player, a 5-disc CD player, VCR, and 5 very capable speakers, should I just go for the receiver? I'm currently eyeing one that's on sale at Best Buy for $179: PIONEER VSX-515-K -- it's actually 6.1, 660 watt.

Of course, I'm on a budget, which is why I can't go out and buy the best of the best -- except in my dreams. Better than adequate would be great. And any advice would be greatly appreciated.

DVD Josh

Always go with a quality receiver over a HTIB.

Mexican Menace

Pick up a receiver that supports DTS and whatnot. If any part of the "built-in" parts fail, you'll end up spending more to replace the whole unit. If you get a sepearte receiver and already have a decent DVD player and other components, you'll spend less in the long run IMO.

If you're looking at Best Buy, here's a coupon for 30% off open-box electronics. Usually open-box receivers are returned due to connection overkill or spousal repercussions.

bookcase3

Thanks to both of your quick responses. And I'll definitely keep my eyes peeled for an open-box unit. They usually scare me off, but a lot of people seem to score some great deals without too many nightmares. Yes?

joshd2012

If you are looking for HTIB, check out Onkyo:

http://www.onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Systems

I convinced my friend to try them out, and they truely will amaze you with their performance. If you compare it to a $1000 set-up, its not going to hold a candle, but for the price, it sounds damn good. AFAIK, its the only HTIB that actually gives you real size speakers (not those micro ones in plastic).

eiker_ir

and if you go with a HTIB, i prefer the ones that come just with the recever and speakers, not those player/receiver in 1 unit.

rdclark

If you're happy with the way your speakers sound, it makes no sense to replace them. And if you're moving from analog to digital, they'll just sound better. Later on, you can upgrade the speakers with a new matched set.

If you don't currently have a subwoofer, however, I seriously recommend you budget for one. If you're moving to a Dolby Digital/DTS system for the first time, the discrete LFE channel is one of the more impressive benefits over analog surround systems.

RichC

K&AJones

Hey

I'm not a real big fan of HTiB setups. Like some have stated stay away from those all-in-one units (rec'r & DVD)Mainly because while the receivers tend to be pretty good overall it's the speakers that come with them that usally leave me shaking my head. If you only have say $200-$300 to spend you can either wait and save or start building one section at a time.

If your dead set on a HTiB then look at the Onkyo HT-S780. Not bad sound but don't expect that major bass thumping from the sub. A pretty good value.

You can find some good receivers in the $175-$250 range. Best Buy has the Yamaha's and Pioneer's to choose. They always have one as a open box buy. Look at these:
Kenwood 9050, Pioneer 815, Yamaha 5840BL, Onkyo 502/503 at Circuit City.

There are some good speaker systems to choose from and almost all the time sound far better than the HTiB setups. For around $300 you can check these out:
JBL 136I, Infinity TSS-450, and the Polk RM6005. Crutchfield has the Polks on sale now. I have this same system as a second setup with a Pioneer Elite slimline DVD and Rec'r. The Infinity has a real nice sound and punch. You can find these at Circuit City. If I'm not mistaken CC has some speaker trade in program? Also with Crutchfiel anything over $200 you can do a three month payment deal. They also do a discount on some combos like speaker and rec'r. Good luck and keep us posted.

Kenny J.

visitor Q

I'll throw in a "NO" for the HTIB.

For an entry level experience, maybe .. then again, it depends on taste versus affordability.

Since you already have a receiver and surround sound set up that works perfectly well, as you say, then go with a more powerful receiver if you can. You might even surprise your own ears by how your speakers open up with a newer, better receiver (and that's not a jab at the Kenwood, trust me). HK (Harmon Kardon) and Denon make very good entry level receivers .. though I don't know what their track record is these days. I'm sure it hasn't changed much in a few years. Also, considering your current gear, I'll assume that you already have a transport (CD or DVD). If this is the case, you're not really gaining a ton by the upgrade unless you want to move the Kenwood/transport into a different room. No reason why you couldn't given a little more time.

If you get more serious about audio/video quality down the road, you'll be stuck with the HTIB components. The biggest weakness will always be the speakers and the CD/DVD transport at that level - always. If wise, the best return for your money will be the best component for that money, period. Since you're already ahead of the curve, invest in the best solution - the receiver. One piece at a time. Happy meals just don't cut shit ... same with HTIBs.

Bottom line .. set your budget, set your plan (receiver specs) and see what's available in receivers.

visitor Q

I would say without any nightmares. I found an open boxed sherwood stereo amp fer me mah and nothing has ever gone wrong with it .. after 10 years. My Integra surround sound receiver (purchased new 6 years ago) is already showing audio channel dropouts ... grrrrrrrrr ... so, you never know what you're going to get, new or .. open boxed.

Just make sure you're fully aware of the store's return policy if you decide the open box route. I've heard of very good deals being made through open box purchases, but it pays to be cautious. Try to do some research on specific stores with respect to their treatment of returned or refurbished items .. inspections and such. I know that Best Buy will accept most anything back .. then they just take it from the customer service desk and place it right back out on the sales floor. So .. be wary.

Sdallnct

Just say "NO" to HTIB. You say you want to upgrade, go with a seperate receiver.
Do not get hung up on WATTS, you really cannot compare this company to company.
Usually "open box" items can still be returned within 30 days.
Another option is "refurbished". Refurbished Onkyo's are particularly popular.

Spiky

That's what I call damning with faint praise.

Pwman

Lol I went Onkyo refurb and I'm glad I did. I saved about 50 % and the only difference was the warranty. Total cost for a decent 6.1 system with 220 watt Sub woofer was $350 including shipping plus I upgraded the cheapo speaker wire and Woofer cable for about $50 more. You can upgrade the warranty at Onkyo USA to 2 years also. I was a doubter but I went to Circuit City and listened. IMHO best HTIB and if any components go I can replace them. I realize that its not an audiophiles dream yet it was rated pretty well by Cnet an editors pick. I dim the lights and my black system and speakers disapear and can handle any movie very nicely in my 450 sq foot theater.

Spiky

What has to be understood is that this popular Onkyo HTiB system is really one of their standard receivers combined with some speakers. It is not the same as the $200 garbage units sold at Target with Sony, Panasonic or cheesier brand names. When the HTiB moniker is used for different types of items, it can make comparing difficult. Ultimate Electronics will put out ads with "HTiB" systems, which can be as much as $5000 or more. These are simply combos of decent receivers and speakers that they sell with a modest discount for the combination. It makes it confusing when retailers and mfgrs use the same term for different products.

darkside

I bought my refurb Onkyo in 2000 and it is still going strong. Great DD/DTS 5.1 receiver and I got it for $400 off the regular price. I have it combined with a set of Infinity speakers I bought a piece at a time when I could afford it and when I could find deals. It took me a couple of years to get it exactly how I wanted it, but I'm really happy with it now. Sure 6.1 or 7.1 would be better, but with my living room setup 5.1 works well.

Most everyone I know with a home theater skimped on the sound. They either got a cheap package with tiny speakers or bought the cheapest speakers they could get for their receiver. I think sound is the easiest thing to fool yourself with. With the video image you can see the differences between standard TV, Progressive scan and HDTV easily. However, with audio unless you have something to compare it to it is easy to convince yourself your stereo sounds great. Most people are concerned with volume and not sound quality anyway.

As happy as I am with mine I know it could sound even better if I could afford a THX receiver and even better speakers so their is really no limit other than your budget. If you are happy with an affordable HTiB then I see nothing wrong with it, but I honestly couldn't find sound I liked until I broke the $1000 barrier on my set up. I looked for deals every chance I got for maximum value, but i still went well over $1000 in cost.

Spiky

Actually, one problem with those HTiBs is they really can't get all that loud. People may think they are loud, but come over to my place and I'll show you loud.
(uh, once I get it all hooked up again)

cajun_junky

I bought a Onkyo HTiB (no dvd player built in!!!) last year since I had no surround system and was on a budget. I got it for $400 new at CC after shopping around and being patient. I must say that I have been extremely impressed with the system for the price. Keep in mind I am not an extreme audiophile but I could not tell the difference between this system and a $1500 system I listened to. Now I did notice a difference when I listened to a Denon receiver with all Paradigm speakers (about $3000).

Since I couldn't afford the $3000 system I decided to get the Onkyo and upgrade individual components as I had the money. Since I have been so pleased with my current Onkyo I have been in no hurry to upgrade thus far.

Now you have to ask yourself what is your ultimate goal. If you want a killer system but don't have the money then replace individual components as you have the money. Start with a receiver, then move to a center and fronts and sub. Finally get the rears. If you want a good sounding system at a modest price then look at the Onkyo.

good luck and hope this helps

Pwman

I thought I would include a link to one of the reviews of the Onkyo I bought for $350 from J&R thru Amazon tho I would still check around at OnkyoUSA.com They have similar systems at good prices less for a 5.1 or more for a 7.1 and I think the shipping is free. Maybe you could get one of their recievers and a subwoofer, they have a decent 5.1 for $129 I agree I could improve on the speakers for much bucks but I am in the same boat as Cajun Junky .Audioholics used the 520 onkyo reciever it comes with for its best under 1k setup last year. Any who heres the link to the Cnet review. Onkyo HT- S770 GL in whatever you decide.

Hiro11

With two kids, no money but a fairly sizeable HT room I bought a Onkyo HT-S780 for $400 yesterday to replace my aging $1000 JVC system. Wow. The Onkyo is far, far better and an excellent value for the money. In terms of sound, it has lots of the mid-bass that's missing in many HTIBs, good transparent highs and tight, defined bass. Also, it's got some nice features like component video switching and true DTS ES/DD EX/IIx 7.1 that my older system lacked.

I think this has got to be one of the best values going in HT sound. It's essentially the well rated $300 503 receiver and a good $250 set of speakers. The receiver offers enough inputs and features and good enough sound quality to be worth upgrading eventually (apparently).

The HT-S780 is bulky and basically devoid of style, you need a big room to have it fit in. However, if you're looking for good performance, this is a good place to start.

tonyc3742

Hmm
The Onkyo site has that one for about 350, but it's refurbed and doesn't come with cables. It's 450 before rebate at Circuit City.
I'm in the same boat as some other folks. I personally went with HTiB for convenience and value, with a Kenwood setup.. For some reason my remote doesn't work either, and I think it's the receiver, because the Harmony remote I got for my birthday doesn't work the Kenwood either. I've been sort of windowshopping, just to see what else is out there, and ideally, I'd like to find something that my remote can work, and that I can route at least two component video inputs through; right now my reciever only handles audio, and I'm running the HDDVR and the DVD player through a component video switchbox. Because the reciever is currently all manual, I don't use it as much as I'd like to.

What are the specs to look for? I'll definitely keep your opinion of that Onkyo in mind, and from what I've heard of them, they're a quality brand. Maybe i'll go to CC and play with it a bit, and try to get a better look at its back.

I know a lot of HTiB boxes have the watts in big print, but I've read that's not a good definer of a system's quality. Ohms? Impedance? Distortion? What criteria are good to judge a system, and what values are the good values? Caveat: I'm still looking for convenience and value, and am in the windowshopping stage, so the budget, if any, is limited.

Does anyone have any opinions on those wireless rear speakers i'm starting to see? I like the concept, and they definitely have an improved WAF, but I don't know if the tech is reliable yet, or if it's affordable.

Spiky

You can't go wrong with any of the Onkyos. The reason is the receiver, as mentioned. They are about the only company who simply takes a real receiver and bundles speakers. Sony, Panny, Kenwood....all have lesser receivers in their HTiBs than their own standalone receivers.

No HTiB, even Onkyo's, is going to have a great amp rating. Really, only power amps and just a couple receivers have proper amp ratings. The rating should read: xx watts per channel, into 8 ohms, RMS, from 20-20000Hz, all channels driven, x.xx% THD. And you want more watts and as far below .1% THD as possible. (that's below POINT 1 percent THD, not 1%)

Why?:
1. 8 ohms is the standard speaker impedance, the rating should match. For HTiBs, this can be different if the speakers have a different rating. But then you should not expect 3rd party speakers to work well.
2. RMS is Root Means Squared, the proper method for measuring wattage output. This is the technical stuff, you can google it if you want more details.
3. 20-20000Hz is the range an average person can hear, so that's what should be measured.
4. You will use all the channels, most likely. So it should be measured with all of them running. Or at least 5 running if the receiver has more than 5. Even high-end receivers and low-end power amps have only one power system running all the channels, they should all be running to measure.
5. Most people can probably hear the difference between 1% THD and .1%, except in bass. So subwoofer amps may have higher THD ratings and still be ok.

Spiky

And some real world comparison:

Here's a Sony HT-DDW670 ($200) rating from Crutchfield:
Looking at the first one: This is a horrible rating, and why it is $200. It is only 2 channels, it is only 6 ohms (unless its speakers are 6 ohm, then it matches and is ok), a high distortion number, and it doesn't cover 20-20000Hz. This is the "real" rating from Sony, and the box ought to be labeled as a 60wpc system because of it. But they decide marketing matters, so...
Looking at the second one, which manages to somehow get a 100 watts rating to slap on the box for marketing: rates one channel at a time, into 6 ohms, ridiculously high distortion, did not use RMS method. And this ridiculous distortion is at only ONE frequency. Who knows what it might be when you use all of them. I might add, this is the equivalent of revving a car engine to the point where it's just about to explode, and then claiming that's its top speed/horsepower.



To compare the Onkyo HTS580, $300:
Here you have a proper 8 ohm rating, decent distortion. Still missing RMS method, not measured in all frequencies, and not all channels driven. But still far superior for the very low-end.



Compared to a higher end Onkyo receiver, my TXDS898:
The only thing missing on mine is that only 2 channels were driven. If all 7 channels are driven, the wattage dips down to below 50 watts. Since that doesn't look good on marketing material, they use this "official" rating to get 110wpc rating.

Mordred

Spiky is correct. A few more notes though.

Ohms is the measure of a speakers resistence to current. 8 Ohms is the standard rating for almost all speakers (although I think some boutique speakers might have ratings up to 16 Ohms). A receiver has to work harder to drive speakers at 8 ohms than the do at 4 ohms (the second most common rating). Often you will see a receiver rated like 100W into 8 ohms, 110W into 4 ohms. This is standard and to receive CE certification a receiver must have a switch specifying whether it's driving 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers. The interesting thing is, these don't HAVE to match what you are actually running although it's normally a good idea. I have a Sony DA4ES receiver. It drives 110W x 7 channels into 8 ohms, however on a 4 Ohm speaker it only drives 90W x 7. I'm not sure of any other receiver manufacturers that do this, but it's a result of the heat output. My 4ES gets too hot to touch after 30 minutes of operation and driving a 4 ohm it would actually overheat, so Sony drops the output. From talking to pro-Audio Sony enthusiasts and electrical engineers it appears that the 4/8ohm switch on the back is purely for certification and if you have any reasonably built 4 ohm speakers they'll handle a signal intended for 8 ohms just fine.

Be careful about wattage ratings also, but don't put TOO much importance on them either. Usually cheaper stuff will only list wattage driving two speakers. Some may list "300W!!" when they actually mean 60W x 5. I wouldn't purchase a receiver that output less than 70W for all channels (I'm sure I've never come close to the 110W I currently have), but even 50W is probably fine. 100W is not twice as loud as 50W. It's an exponential scale so you need 500W to be twice as loud as 50W.

For HTIBs they may least speaker efficiency for the included speakers. This is written as 90dB/W@1m which is the volume of your speaker driven by 1 Watt of power at a distance of 1 meter. 90dB is average for speakers, anything above 95dB is very efficient and anything below 85dB is going to be pretty quiet. Now that's not to say that you won't be able to hear it, just that you'll have to turn your receiver up a little more.


My receiver is listed as 110W x 7channels, 20Hz-20kHz with .05% THD. It's also a receiver that retailed new for around $1k but can probably be found for around $500 nowadays or probably $350-400 used. Sony's non-ES line doesn't come close to those kind of numbers unfortunately.

awmurray

More dangerous (and likely) are the boutique speakers with lower average impedance ratings than 8 ohms. Like 4 ohms or even 2 ohms.

I think this is backwards. The lower the speaker impedance, the harder the amp has to work because it must deliver more current... more on this below.

Just a note that the better the receiver's amp is the higher the output goes as impedance goes down. A perfect 100 watt amp (for example) would do:

100W into 8 Ohms,
200W into 4 Ohms,
400W into 2 Ohms.

Of course that kind of performance won't be found in a receiver (I've never seen one anyway), but the closer it gets, the better the amplifier section is. Most amps don't deliver double the power into half the impedance, I'm just saying that would be the "ideal" performance.

This is because the amp cannot deliver the current that the speakers need. Therefore it overheats. I didn't know any receivers actually dropped their output into a lower impedance speaker-- but I wouldn't use that receiver on 4 ohm speakers because it's likely to sound bad (compressed, no head room, etc.) assuming it doesn't melt first.

Another rule of thumb: heavier amp => better amp.

And you don't want higher wattage ratings just for volume. More than likely any amp will get "loud enough", but the higher the RMS wattage, the cleaner the sound will be. More watts will deliver a cleaner, higher quality sound at a given volume that is less fatiguing to the ears.

Mordred

Yeah, you're right, I was thinking about it wrong. They work harder, but (normally) deliver more power.
As I said, it really doesn't matter assuming you have a resonably efficient and well made speaker. My 4 ohm Klipsch surrounds handle it just fine. I think Sony's ES line (not sure about their newer digital and consumer grade analog receivers) are the only ones which drop power into a lower impedance, which is why you shouldn't change them to 4 ohms in general.

You said that much better than I could.

Oh and my receiver weighs 46 lbs which makes it a bitch to move it for cabling purposes.