I've read a LOT of reviews (both from the paid critics and the unpaid fans) and "most" of the reviews painted this film as being one of the best of the series (if not the best). I eagerly went to the movie because I was led to believe that Lucas had returned to form and had made a picture that equalled ANH and ESB. I came out of ROTS disappointed. (IMHO I thought ATOC was much better.)
Here's my problem:
When I post my thoughts and feelings about ROTS's shortcomings I'm met with a lot of..."ROTS is the best ever!...You don't know what you're talking about!...You just want to nitpick!...You want to troll and post negative things to ruin the film for others!...Greatest film ever made--PERIOD!...You just don't GET IT!...What's NOT to like!...Lucas is GOD!...etc."
I HONESTLY wanted to love or, at least, like this film. It left me cold. (I do GREATLY admire Lucas for having the vision to complete his six-part mega-film. Nothing against the man there.)
Now, I've seen MANY films in my life and I have a long list of films that I think are some of the best ever made..."The Seventh Seal", "The Last Picture Show", "Nashville", "La Strada", "The Maltese Falcon", "Casablanca", "The Big Lebowski", "Godfather Part I & II", "Vertigo"...etc...(Maybe even "The Empire Strikes Back" and "American Graffiti") and I can understand how some people would not like and could be less than enthusiastic towards those that I just listed. (Not ESB, of course -wink- .)
Do I need to see ROTS again to realize what I missed (and I do have a yearning to see it again), or should I just let it pass and let the fans have their day in the sun while I rewatch "my" classic list of films?
Thanks for any enlightenment (and flames, if it comes to that!)
calhoun07
05-22-05, 08:31 PM
I can accept the fact that there are people out there who don't like movies, even movies I like. It's a big world and there are movies for everybody, and there is not one movie out there universally loved.
silentbob007
05-22-05, 08:34 PM
If you didn't like the movie ... fine. I can only say that you might give it another chance on DVD as you might like it better now that you have lowered expectations. I can definately understand almost all opinions on both the liking and disliking side.
IanH
05-22-05, 08:36 PM
Face it people like different things.
Just look at the Top 10 Box Office for the most popular. People want cheap thrills and laughs period. Most people don't care about looking at a picture critically. Its all about satisfying their "needs". Whether its "shit getting blown up real good", frat jokes about defecation, or a group of backwoods inbreds chopping up coeds.
Time will ultimately prove whether ROTS is really as good or even "great" as people think it is. When ROTJ first came out everyone said it was the best SW movie of the Trilogy. Now, its often considered the worst. Of course some people will still debate that but the consensus among critics, hardcore SW fans, and time has not been kind to ROTJ .
I have no problem with the hype. People are excited and expressing their love for SW. Let them enjoy the moment. A year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now more and more people will be able to view all the SW films with less emotion.
Jackskeleton
05-22-05, 08:48 PM
Can those who didn't think the film was very good Accept that it was a well reviewed film?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/
83% fresh. So it's pretty clear that many people did think it was good.
Ketamine
05-22-05, 08:54 PM
Can those who didn't think the film was very good Accept that it was a well reviewed film?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/
83% fresh. So it's pretty clear that many people did think it was good.
Good point. It does go both ways. I liked it though it had its problems so I can see if some people say that they didn't like it. Overall, a good end to a wonderful series of films.
Doughboy
05-22-05, 09:27 PM
I've read a LOT of reviews (both from the paid critics and the unpaid fans) and "most" of the reviews painted this film as being one of the best of the series (if not the best). I eagerly went to the movie because I was led to believe that Lucas had returned to form and had made a picture that equalled ANH and ESB. I came out of ROTS disappointed. (IMHO I thought ATOC was much better.)
I felt the same way leaving the midnight showing. I was disappointed and I also felt that Episode II was a superior film. And it's not like I was expecting something that would rival Empire or ANH. Hell, I didn't even expect it to equal Jedi.
So my expectations were held in check. The problem is Lucas completely dropped the ball with Anakin's turn. And what's amazing is whenever I mention this shortcoming or the dozens of plotholes in the film, I'm repeatedly told by fans that I need to read the novelization or Labyrinth of Evil or simply that I'm supposed to fill in the blanks for myself(like with Leia remembering Padme or how Anakin manages to learn the Force ghost power).
I've never seen this before with a movie of this magnitude. It's not a freaking final exam, people. I shouldn't have to study beforehand in order to understand what I'm watching. For example, I felt that General Grievous was a stupid character and a complete waste of screentime. Imagine how much more disinterested and confused I would've been had I never seen Clone Wars.
And I'm not saying all this to insult fans of the movie. If you enjoyed it, I'm happy for you. Really. In fact, I kind of envy you. But I do believe that once the euphoria of opening week wears off and people have time to reflect upon what they've seen, their opinion of ROTS will change. And this is not wishful thinking on my part. It's just that all the threads and comments I've read are almost identical to what I witnessed in 1999 and 2002. ROTS won't be hated a year from now. But it'll likely be considered no better than the best of the prequels, which frankly isn't a tall order.
Terrell
05-22-05, 09:28 PM
Yep, it is a two-way street, and I can certainly accept that some didn't like it and think it was any good. Doesn't mean I agree with them or think their opinion is right. But I do accept their opinion and respect their right to have it. But they also have to accept that a lot of people think it is a good film.
bboisvert
05-23-05, 01:17 AM
"You're Just Not That Into It"
That's cool... but I think you also have to accept that there are people out there (the majority, actually, it seems like) that did like it. And it isn't just Star Wars Fanatics. There are quite a few "normal" people who liked the film too.
Look, I'll be the first person to admit that the prequels are faulty. I'd love nothing more than to go back to around 1995 or so, meet up with Lucas, and help him craft his vision a bit more precisely. Nothing radical, just a nip here/a tuck there, a few dialog scenes that are more realistically rendenderd, a few themes that are more clearly defined. But, ultimately, we get what we got. The prequels are done, warts and all. You can either be fanatical about them and discuss/debate, or you can be upset about them and bitch/moan, or you can ignore them and get on with your life. It shouldn't really bother you one way or the other if someone else feels more strongly about the film than you do.
Franchot
05-23-05, 04:48 AM
Can those who didn't think the film was very good Accept that it was a well reviewed film?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/
83% fresh. So it's pretty clear that many people did think it was good.
Sure, I can accept the fact that the movie was well reviewed and liked by many. (Just like I can accept the fact that movies such as "My Big Fat Greek Wedding", "Titanic", and "Forest Gump" were adored by many people (both critics and non), while I personally thought they were all very weak.
(Hey, the majority of people voted for Bush TWICE, right? Doesn't mean I think the majority of people are insightful enough to make the best choice because I feel that Bush has been a poor president...)
The thing is, will a second viewing of ROTS win me over? (When I first saw ROTJ, I thought it was nothing more than a puppet show, but years later I saw it and thought it was pretty decent. When I first saw "Vertigo" I thought it was slow and uninvolving and I wondered what all the hoopla was about; subsequent viewings enabled me to appreciate the film much more.)
Will I be able to reach the level of "enlightenment" and enjoyment that the majority of people are getting from this film if I give it another try? I admit I DO want to see it again, so there is something in the film that is drawing me back to it. I haven't outwardly or inwardly dismissed it as a piece of crap. (Or maybe I need to resee it again to confirm to myself that it truly was that bad?)
(Where's the DVD Savant when I need his wisdom the most?)
Jackskeleton
05-23-05, 05:08 AM
Hey, the majority of people voted for Bush TWICE, right? Doesn't mean I think the majority of people are insightful enough to make the best choice because I feel that Bush has been a poor president...
So the matter is not that the masses feel one one, but that you feel that the mass should feel "YOUR" way?
Will a second viewing of ROTS win you over? I doubt it.
Franchot
05-23-05, 05:27 AM
So the matter is not that the masses feel one one, but that you feel that the mass should feel "YOUR" way?
Will a second viewing of ROTS win you over? I doubt it.
No, the masses can do as they please. I'm not trying to win them over to my point of view. I'm just trying to determine if I'm missing something that others are seeing. I appreciate your response.
(Since you liked my president statement so much ;) , here's another: Arguably, McDonald's is the most popular restaurant in America, but I wouldn't eat there. But if it's your cup of tea, then, by all means, have at it.)
Jackskeleton
05-23-05, 05:47 AM
I think you're missing my point in saying that you believe yourself to be above everyone else.
Especially with the McDonalds comment. If it was to hold true, then you would have to show that movie is subpar. In this case, ROTS is actually the third best rated star wars film of the whole six films according to rotten tomatoes. So clearly it's striking appeal in both Critical praise aswell as the masses enjoyment. While you feel yourself as outside of that box, it doesn't put you above it.
To equate to your example. It would mean that both Food critics and the general poplution both love McDonalds. While I'm not to keen on what Food Critics are saying these days, I doubt they are giving McDonalds any thumbs up on quality.
What are you missing? I really don't know. it's your own personal taste and opinion and that's really all you should bother with. Stop trying to make other people justify to you why a film worked for them or not. Not to mention wanting them to tell you why you should like it. You either do or you don't. Simple as that. If you want to give it another shot, might aswell.
QuiGonJosh
05-23-05, 07:22 AM
I can accept it, but do I give a shit what they think? Hell no! :D
AGuyNamedMike
05-23-05, 07:48 AM
Well said, IanH.
taa455
05-23-05, 10:52 AM
Absolutely. I'm a big SW fan, and I agree (to some degree) with a lot of the criticism. People make some good points. However, some critics who are just spewing venom all over the film need to lighten up.
Mhepburn20
05-23-05, 11:20 AM
Will a second viewing win you over?
No one here can answer that with the information you've provided so far. Was anakin's turn and the inconsistencies with lines from ROTJ the only issues you had with the film?
I, too, did not think ROTS was a great film. It was entertaining which is a films primary purpose but it felt to me like Lucas just went through a mental check list of what had to be included in this film and threw the scenes in as he crossed them off the list. The movie lacked a general cohesion and (with the exception of anakin and palpatine) there are basically no character moments. There is nothing in this film that furthers any of the characters but Anakin. For some of the characters (jedi esp.) the lines might as well have been arbitrarily assigned.
After I watched it a second time, my cheif complaint of the film (that being a lack of cohesion and the rather haphazard way it seems lucas went through the check list without developing the ideas) continued to bother me, but I did notice more characterizations so it was worth it for me to see it again. I still don't think it is a great film, but it was enjoyable.
Kal-El
05-23-05, 11:23 AM
I couldn't care less if other people think it's not. I think it was a very good movie and that's all that matters to me.
DRG
05-23-05, 11:39 AM
I've never seen this before with a movie of this magnitude. It's not a freaking final exam, people. I shouldn't have to study beforehand in order to understand what I'm watching.
Agree with the last two lines, but not the first. When I had major criticisms of Matrix Reloaded I was told by several people, online and off, that it would all make sense if I had watched the Animatrix or read this and that or played the video game. And when I had issues with some of the characters (and especially the craptastic Aragorn/Liv Tyler love storyline) in the Lord of the Rings movies, I had people explaining things with "Well, if you'd read the books..."
jaeufraser
05-23-05, 11:48 AM
Agree with the last two lines, but not the first. When I had major criticisms of Matrix Reloaded I was told by several people, online and off, that it would all make sense if I had watched the Animatrix or read this and that or played the video game. And when I had issues with some of the characters (and especially the craptastic Aragorn/Liv Tyler love storyline) in the Lord of the Rings movies, I had people explaining things with "Well, if you'd read the books..."
Which I find funny, because the Matrix, LoTR, and Star Wars all make pretty good sense in their own self containted movies. The extraneous stuff is fun gravy but hardly necessary for their enjoyment.
As for the OP...I don't think anyone is going to be able to tell you if you'll enjoy it more the second time. Just go watch it again...you seem to want to. But it's your opinion.
rennervision
05-23-05, 04:55 PM
What puzzles me is how shortly after Star Wars was rereleased in 1997, and especially after Episode I, the Star Wars fans divided into two camps that now war with each like a bunch of separatists.
Why does this puzzle me? Because from what I've seen on the internet, there is almost perfect harmony among Star Trek fans. If someone were to say "Lucas sucks," we know you're just asking for trouble around here. But if someone says "Berman and Braga sucks," no Star Trek fan disagrees, and they all try to support each other through this difficult time.
Josh H
05-23-05, 05:01 PM
Certainly, different strokes for different folks. Hell I'd loved the film (4/5) but even I'll admit it's really just a very good star wars film. If it was a random sci fi/fantasy movie with characters I haven't adored for 20 years, I imagine I would rate it lower.
Of course you're going to have some fanboy types that think Star Wars can do no wrong and won't accept it, as well as the elitist types that think their opinion is the "right" opinion in all matters.
But fortunately those are a minority.
caligulathegod
05-23-05, 06:01 PM
(Hey, the majority of people voted for Bush TWICE, right? Doesn't mean I think the majority of people are insightful enough to make the best choice because I feel that Bush has been a poor president...)
Just for the record, Bush didn't get the majority vote twice. He lost the popular vote in 2000 and won in the electoral college. It was a technicality.
Anyway, I think it's kind of unfair to rank this film among ..."The Seventh Seal", "The Last Picture Show", "Nashville", "La Strada", "The Maltese Falcon", "Casablanca", "The Big Lebowski", "Godfather Part I & II", "Vertigo"...etc. None of the Star Wars films are that great. Are they fun? Yeah. They've probably meant more to me personally than any other films at certain points in my life. Rewatching the films last week, I am realistic about them, though. They really aren't that good. From Mark Hamill's overacting (anytime he hears about his father in Ep4 he jumps 3 feet) to the muppet-ridden Jedi, they all have their weaknesses. Empire is the only one that approaches being a real film with real characters. But you know what? I love them all like my favorite pair of old sneakers. Holes and all.
Dr. DVD
05-23-05, 07:18 PM
I doubt a second viewing will change your outlook.
I will say that the first time I saw it I thought Anakin and Padme's scenes were horrendous, but the second and third times they grew on me and weren't that bad, save for the scene of her combing her hair on the balcony, that's still horrid.
Everything else is flawless IMO!!! :D
Trigger
05-23-05, 07:23 PM
I thought it was pretty bad. I'd rank it 5th among both trilogies... next to last (which would be Phantom Menace). A second viewing for me wouldn't change my mind, but it might make a good opportunity to take a nap.
Doughboy
05-23-05, 10:42 PM
Agree with the last two lines, but not the first. When I had major criticisms of Matrix Reloaded I was told by several people, online and off, that it would all make sense if I had watched the Animatrix or read this and that or played the video game. And when I had issues with some of the characters (and especially the craptastic Aragorn/Liv Tyler love storyline) in the Lord of the Rings movies, I had people explaining things with "Well, if you'd read the books..."
I was able to follow Matrix Unloaded without ever watching The Animatrix or playing Enter the Matrix. On the other hand, it brought up a lot of questions that were dealt with poorly in Matrix Convolutions.
As for Lord of the Rings, I'll admit having never read the books that it was difficult following the story and keeping track of the characters the first time I saw Fellowship. But like any 3 hour movie, there's a lot to soak in during the initial viewing and it almost demands a 2nd or 3rd look. I really enjoyed Fellowship more after watching it again.
My main gripe with LOTR is that Two Towers and Return of the King seem to have been edited with the assumption that everyone had bought and watched the Extended Edition DVD of the previous film. Especially Return of the King. Would the casual viewer have any clue who Denethor was if they had never read the books and had only seen the theatrical cut of Two Towers?
Y2K Falcon
05-23-05, 10:45 PM
Lots of analysis in this thread for a simple question...
I accept that some people don't think that pizza is a very good food. There are even some people called "vegetarians" that think a sirloin dripping in butter is disgusting. :drool:
That's what makes us all "human"...
Franchot
05-24-05, 05:24 AM
Thanks, everyone, for all the serious (and non-serious) answers to my question. I own all the Star War films (and cartoons) and I really wanted to like ROTS, but I was disappointed. (And I shouldn't have put those references about the President and McDonald's into my posts. They were unnecessary.)
Like many, MANY others I'll be picking up ROTS on DVD when it's released and watch it at that time along with the other Star War films and see how they fit together. Hopefully, George will put in some deleted scenes and do some reediting to make ROTS a more complete and filled-out experience.
(Time to more onto "Batman Begins" and "The Fantastic Four" and hope for the best.)
Qui Gon Jim
05-24-05, 10:19 AM
Certainly, different strokes for different folks. Hell I'd loved the film (4/5) but even I'll admit it's really just a very good star wars film. If it was a random sci fi/fantasy movie with characters I haven't adored for 20 years, I imagine I would rate it lower.
Of course you're going to have some fanboy types that think Star Wars can do no wrong and won't accept it, as well as the elitist types that think their opinion is the "right" opinion in all matters.
But fortunately those are a minority.
Great post. Unfortunately, those two extremes speak with loud voices and tose of us in the middle get drowned out.
I liked RotS a lot. it's the best SW since 83. But if this were a random Sci-Fi flick, I probably wouldn't like it as much. The history and baggage of being SW pays off with this film, unlike TPM and AotC.
Draven
05-31-05, 03:31 PM
I guess my only problem with criticism of the film is if I felt you were being fair to it.
For example, in one review of the film I read, they said they didn't like it for three main reasons. One of them was the order 66 portion of the film. They basically said that because the movies didn't explain that order 66 had been hardwired/brainwashed into the clones that the scenes didn't make sense and affected the quality of the entire movie. I thought it was so freaking OBVIOUS that Palpatine basically threw a switch inside every clone in the Republic that I didn't need it spelled out. It was one of the few times Lucas was subtle with something (the fact that a few seconds earlier, the clone trooper had handed Obi Wan his lightsaber back drove the point home for me.)
I had similar reactions to their other criticisms, which basically means I discount that review. They just didn't "get" it.
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