is 1080i worth it to upgrade DVD player [merged]

[d_man_n_d_mand]

guys, I lost my TV and had to buy a new one, it can handle 1080i but my DVD player can only get to 480p. is it worth me getting a dvd player that provides 1080i output? since I mostly watch via a DVD player and not broadcast HD channels

[B.A.]

Don't waste your time - watch your DVDs in 480P.

From what I have heard, up-converting is only useful if you are using a capable projector w/ a very large screen (100" or more).

[rdclark]

What's on the disc is NTSC video. Line doubling and up-conversion can create the illusion of a better image, but it can't create data out of nothing.

Wait for HD-DVD to shake out before you make a move, is my opinion.

RichC

[brainee]

I recently bought a 1080i DVD player, after watching 480p for some time. I didn't upgrade for the 1080i -- I was looking for a good region-free progressive player, and the upconversion was a bonus. This is for use on a 62" HDTV (Mitsu WD-62525). To my eyes, I don't see much of a difference. So I'd second (or third) the recommendation to hold out for HDDVD.

[Spiky]

Most 1080i TVs also handle 480p natively, meaning you could actually have a worse picture with an up-rezzing player. I agree with everyone, wait for actual HD res DVDs.

[DVD Josh]

Don't waste your time - watch your DVDs in 480P.

From what I have heard, up-converting is only useful if you are using a capable projector w/ a very large screen (100" or more).

"From what you've heard?" I don't mean to be rude B.A., but honsetly, that would make you pretty unqualified to have an opinion on this :) :)

I disagree completely. I recently upgraded to the Oppo Digital up-converting player, and let me tell you, it's incredible. I have a smaller CRT HDTV, and it was like I had been watching movies through a screen door before. As a test, I popped in The Incredibles and watched the same two minute segment over and over. 480p was impressive. 720p was even better. 1080i was simply jaw-dropping. The level and detail and color separation was amazing. I could immediately tell differences.

Now I must say, that I do respect the opinions of everyone above me, and they are quite knowledgeable persons on the subject. I happen to differ.

[B.A.]

"From what you've heard?" I don't mean to be rude B.A., but honsetly, that would make you pretty unqualified to have an opinion on this :)
I heard it from my local ISF calibrator. I think he has a pretty qualified opinion on the subject.

And I've read similar opinions in forums across the internet.

[DVD Josh]

I heard it from my local ISF calibrator. I think he has a pretty qualified opinion on the subject.

And I've read similar opinions in forums across the internet.

I've heard it both ways myself. I personally see a difference, but then again, I know what to look for, as I'm certain does the ISF guy. But your opinions are based on hearsay :) So I objected :)

No doubt the difference would be far more *noticeable* on a larger screen, and to that I will find our middle ground.

[renaldow]

What Josh said. I have the same player, and both 1080i and 720p look better than 480p. That doesn't mean it will look better to you, just that it does to me.

As far as the "DVDs are only 480 to begin with, everything above that is an illusion" type argument... Everything you're watching on a display is an illusion. No, nothing claims to add data to a disc, but it does get presented differently. If 1080i or 720p didn't look any different than 480p, why would players be made with this capability? Is it just a scam? ;)

[chipmac]

As far as RPTV HDTVs go I believe Mits is the only brand to still support 480p native displays. Some people say Sony also does but Sony is never clear on what their TVs actually display. Hitachi, Toshiba and Panasonic all accept a 480p signal and convert it to 540p or 1080i for display. In these cases and in the case of fixed pixel displays that have a display of 720p or some variant then an upconverting player can do a better job than the built in scaling of the display. On my Mits that displays 480p native I'll stick with 480p over all of the potential pitfalls of these scaling players.

[X]

It depends on how good the scaler is on your display, how good the scaler is on the player, your display's native resolution, the interface between the player and display (digital or analog) and whether you change from one to the other.

[Randy Miller III]

Not to change the conversation, but how can one lose a TV?

[cajun_junky]

Not to change the conversation, but how can one lose a TV?

I was wondering the same thing.....:hscratch:

[Maxflier]

Not to change the conversation, but how can one lose a TV?


Maybe his TV was very dear to him,and he uses the term "lost" like when you lose a loved one.

[KillerQ]

Hey all,

I have read around on the differences between DVI vs. HDMI vs. Component. Basically, as you may know, they all pretty much agree that the PQ can be VERY close with all sources depending on the source. However, the question I have was never specifically touched on... I'm going to be picking up a Mits 65" WS-65315. I currently have the ever-famous Panasonic RP-82 DVD Player. Now, I am trying to decide if component (using prog. scan, of course) would look the same, worse, or better than buying a new Samsung DVD player that upconverts using a DVI connection? Are there any players that use DVI but don't upconvert? Is that an option that can be turned off? If that's the case, then there may be times when a "non-upconverted" DVD signal using DVI looks better than the up-converted one....

Anyhow, back to my RP82. Now, this player uses progressive scan. I have never had an HD set before, and I understand that Prog. Scan is only utilized when the TV is HD....is that true as well? I would like to think that my RP-82 with component will be better than the new upconverted DVI players -- but I suppose your responses will answer that for me....


Thanks,

Matt

[d_man_n_d_mand]

Not to change the conversation, but how can one lose a TV?

The lightning flashed, and the TV went BBBOOOMMM

the electrician said it was a direct strike, I had several surge protectors, all fried as well as 5,000 in electrical equipment . An HDTV, an Onkyo receiver, a velodine sub, all my phones, my garage door, the security system, and a few other things. YES, it was a loss

[Sdallnct]

The lightning flashed, and the TV went BBBOOOMMM

the electrician said it was a direct strike, I had several surge protectors, all fried as well as 5,000 in electrical equipment . An HDTV, an Onkyo receiver, a velodine sub, all my phones, my garage door, the security system, and a few other things. YES, it was a loss

So you shopping with insurance money? Hope you had good coverage and low deductible!

[X]

Hey all,

...Please try to look at the titles of other threads or do a search to find out if your question has already been addressed!

[DVD Josh]

Hey all,

I have read around on the differences between DVI vs. HDMI vs. Component. Basically, as you may know, they all pretty much agree that the PQ can be VERY close with all sources depending on the source. However, the question I have was never specifically touched on... I'm going to be picking up a Mits 65" WS-65315. I currently have the ever-famous Panasonic RP-82 DVD Player. Now, I am trying to decide if component (using prog. scan, of course) would look the same, worse, or better than buying a new Samsung DVD player that upconverts using a DVI connection? Are there any players that use DVI but don't upconvert? Is that an option that can be turned off? If that's the case, then there may be times when a "non-upconverted" DVD signal using DVI looks better than the up-converted one....

Anyhow, back to my RP82. Now, this player uses progressive scan. I have never had an HD set before, and I understand that Prog. Scan is only utilized when the TV is HD....is that true as well? I would like to think that my RP-82 with component will be better than the new upconverted DVI players -- but I suppose your responses will answer that for me....


Thanks,

Matt

You are all over the place here Matt :)

It's a matter of many things. I personally think that DVI looks sharper than component, with better color separation, but it's often subtle. In any event, I would NOT be interested in a Sammy DVI player. They have white crush problems over DVI and in general, are not great players. If you want to upconvert, you should be looking at the Denon 1910, Zenith 316 / LG, Oppo and the new Toshiba (3580 I think). The rest, sammy espeically, aren't that great. You can of course turn off an upconversion. My oppo will display at 480p, 720p and 1080i over DVI. Many folks think that a non-upcoverted signal may look better, but I believe this to be an illusion. If the source material is bad, upconverting often shows this better, thus creating the illusion of "better". That's my opinion anyway.

Yes, it's true - only an HDTV can display a progressive signal. And no, the Denon and the Oppo, and possibily the Zenith, are better players than your RP82. But honestly, your RP82 is the best component DVD player out there (in it's price range and directly above).

But Matt, you know the drill - let thine OWN eyes be the judge.

[Spiky]

You are all over the place here Matt :)

It's a matter of many things. I personally think that DVI looks sharper than component, with better color separation, but it's often subtle. In any event, I would NOT be interested in a Sammy DVI player. They have white crush problems over DVI and in general, are not great players. If you want to upconvert, you should be looking at the Denon 1910, Zenith 316 / LG, Oppo and the new Toshiba (3580 I think). The rest, sammy espeically, aren't that great. You can of course turn off an upconversion. My oppo will display at 480p, 720p and 1080i over DVI. Many folks think that a non-upcoverted signal may look better, but I believe this to be an illusion. If the source material is bad, upconverting often shows this better, thus creating the illusion of "better". That's my opinion anyway.
It depends on the display, also. Matt is talking about an analog technology. Putting the DAC in the TV doesn't make it better, and if the TV's DAC is not as good as the DVDp's, then it makes it worse. Also, this TV will show 1080i and 480p natively, I believe. That CAN make the progressive better than the upconverted, depending on the conversion.
Yes, it's true - only an HDTV can display a progressive signal. And no, the Denon and the Oppo, and possibily the Zenith, are better players than your RP82. But honestly, your RP82 is the best component DVD player out there (in it's price range and directly above).

But Matt, you know the drill - let thine OWN eyes be the judge.
Note that this HDTV can display a progressive signal, but not in HD resolution. Also, I would not be so sure about the quality level of these 3 players compared to the RP82. The Secrets marks put the Oppo a bit higher than the Panny, but Kris himself has said it is not the best pic he's ever seen. That goes to a lower-rated machine, the Denon 3910, I believe. The tests at Secrets are not everything, just mostly related to CUE and de-interlacing.

My thought is that there is little point trying to upgrade the last 1% (if that's even true) of your DVD video when HD versions are coming out soon. Not with an analog TV. If this was a DLP, it would be a very different discussion. I am extremely happy with my Denon 2900 pic, for instance, but with my new DLP, I may be persuaded to try the Oppo once the little problems are all fixed.

[X]

Just to contribute a data point here...

I have a CRT RPTV (a Pioneer Elite supporting 480i and 1080i natively, and with a very good built-in scaler) that I connect to an HTPC with a VGA cable (analog, a step up from component, a step down from DVI).

I can toggle between 480i or 1080i with a single keystroke in order to compare the picture quality. Everything else stays the same.

The picture quality is very slightly sharper at 1080i. Just enough so that I mostly use that setting. If I couldn't A-B the two pictures I doubt I'd notice the difference. I'm pretty sure my computer's video card does significantly better scaling than any of the DVD players we're talking about here.

[Michael Corvin]

I recently bought a 1080i DVD player, after watching 480p for some time. I didn't upgrade for the 1080i -- I was looking for a good region-free progressive player, and the upconversion was a bonus. This is for use on a 62" HDTV (Mitsu WD-62525). To my eyes, I don't see much of a difference. So I'd second (or third) the recommendation to hold out for HDDVD.


:up:

Same here. I can't change at the press of a button so it is hard to tell.

[Iron_Giant]

You are all over the place here Matt :)

It's a matter of many things. I personally think that DVI looks sharper than component, with better color separation, but it's often subtle. In any event, I would NOT be interested in a Sammy DVI player. They have white crush problems over DVI and in general, are not great players. If you want to upconvert, you should be looking at the Denon 1910, Zenith 316 / LG, Oppo and the new Toshiba (3580 I think). The rest, sammy espeically, aren't that great. You can of course turn off an upconversion. My oppo will display at 480p, 720p and 1080i over DVI. Many folks think that a non-upcoverted signal may look better, but I believe this to be an illusion. If the source material is bad, upconverting often shows this better, thus creating the illusion of "better". That's my opinion anyway.

Yes, it's true - only an HDTV can display a progressive signal. And no, the Denon and the Oppo, and possibily the Zenith, are better players than your RP82. But honestly, your RP82 is the best component DVD player out there (in it's price range and directly above).

But Matt, you know the drill - let thine OWN eyes be the judge.
Great comments above, I would add the following statements.

One of the big reason the DVI signal looks better:
-Component is an analog signal that has been converted from the "Digital" DVD source and it loose some video quality during the Analog to Digital conversion.

-DVI is a true digital signal, the "Digital" DVD source goes directly to the TV and does not loose video signal quality during the Digital to Analog conversion.


***I would rather have DVI at 480P than 1080i that use the Digital to Analog conversion.

[Spiky]

[QUOTE=Iron_Giant]
-DVI is a true digital signal, the "Digital" DVD source goes directly to the TV and does not loose video signal quality during the Digital to Analog conversion.
QUOTE]
Um, this really doesn't make any sense.

It always comes down to the same thing. If your TV is better than the player, the digital hookup is a no-brainer. If the DVDp is clearly better, component may be your best bet. And in some cases they can be virtually identical.

[chipmac]

Not to mention that a few models of digital displays still convert from digital to analog and back to digital again when connected with a DVI or HDMI cable.

[d_man_n_d_mand]

Is there a list on what DVD players can provide the 1080i via component output? Any recommendations?

[DVD Josh]

Is there a list on what DVD players can provide the 1080i via component output? Any recommendations?

Do you mean via hack? Because the answer is ZERO due to forced limitations. Manufacturers must disable this feature. But you can hack some players to allow this (Samsung 841, Zenith / LG are two that come to mind). But even then, these players do NOT pass BTB over upcoverted component, and that's a real problem.

[Spiky]

Wasn't the Momitsu another with uprezzed component out? There're constant threads on these models and this topic at AVS. Like this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=423609).

[GreenMonkey]

Do you mean via hack? Because the answer is ZERO due to forced limitations. Manufacturers must disable this feature. But you can hack some players to allow this (Samsung 841, Zenith / LG are two that come to mind). But even then, these players do NOT pass BTB over upcoverted component, and that's a real problem.


The Zenith 318 may support component out of the box, it depends on whether you get the old or new firmware. You can flash it back to the old firmware if it doesn't. And the Zenith 318 does pass blacker than black.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=53&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0

Personally I'm not that fond of it, though. The righthand side pixel cropping, subtitle sync, etc and some other issues with it bug me. I may ebay it some day and get an old Panny XP30/50 (I miss my Panny CP72). Then again, I've got a 800x600 (basically 480p in widescreen) X1, so the upscaling doesn't really help me.

[d_man_n_d_mand]

I am looking at the samsung which from what I read switching to component is accessing the service menu and switching it. I have searched and its talked about in general and I cannot find the actual details on a) finding the service menu and b) what I need to do to change it? anyone do this?

edit well I did find the menu for doing here (http://digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22359)


I also found that the samsung is doing divx here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=544422&page=1&pp=30)

has anyone done any of these successfully?