Open letter to the people of France

[Pharoh]

Concerned citizens of France,

Recently your President, Mr. Chirac, went on live television in an attempt to garner your support for the upcoming vote on ratifying the EU constitution on May 29th. His efforts have been described by some as being too little too late, as a last gasp attempt to revive the almost dead Yes campaing. I simply ask of you, don't fall for it.

Sure, he tried to play on your emotions rather than your sensibilities, strived to tug on your anti-American heartstrings, but you know that he was not being fully honest with you. You, of all the people in Europe, know the lasciviousness of politicians and realise how ulterior Mr. Chirac's motives are. You understand that his presidency, already viewed with contempt by many, will be seen as an utter failure if this cause he champions fails. Do not let his legacy be your rationale for voting on the future of France.

It is apparent in the many polls conducted that, despite the assertions of your president, you are aware of how this constitution will weaken France and weaken Europe. You know how ratification will lead to nothing but a free-market monolith, and will gravely threaten the wonderful social model that you have so labored to create. Will you concede and let all of that work be for naught? Will you cast aside your security net and take it away from those less fortunate? Will you allow the wishes of multi-national corporations and free-market bureaucrats to override your sense of righteousness? Most importantly, will you ever allow France to be diminished, to give up her rightful place at the head of enlightened Europe? That is what your president is asking you to do. Will you stand with him? I can not believe you will.

I will now simply take my leave by imploring once again to please do what is right. Vote for France, vote for Europe, vote for the World. Vote no!



Humbly,

Your fellow citizen of Earth.

[X]

I like how it's in English.

[Pharoh]

I like how it's in English.



They're not like us stupid Americans, they are multilingual. Or one of those linguals.

[Ranger]

Sounds like there could be another "empty stool" crisis for the European community. :)

[sfsdfd]

Sure, he tried to play on your emotions rather than your sensibilities... but you know that he was not being fully honest with you. You know the lasciviousness of politicians and realise how ulterior his motives are. You understand that his presidency, already viewed with contempt by many, will be seen as an utter failure if this cause he champions fails.

You know how these policies will lead to nothing but a free-market monolith, and will gravely threaten the wonderful social model that you have so labored to create. Will you concede and let all of that work be for naught? Will you cast aside your security net and take it away from those less fortunate? Will you allow the wishes of multi-national corporations and free-market bureaucrats to override your sense of righteousness? That is what your president is asking you to do.

Will you stand with him? I can not believe you will.
A (very slightly modified) essay entitled: "Please Learn From Our Mistake!" :thumbsup: It's amazingly how well-tailored this would have been to an Oct'04 Democratic speech. ;)

- David Stein

[DVD Polizei]

Chirac is doing just fine. Let the poor man be. :)

[X]

Sounds like there could be another "empty stool" crisis for the European community. :)Don't worry, Chirac is full of "stools".

[mikehunt]

They're not like us stupid Americans, they are multilingual. Or one of those linguals.

cunning?

oh wait, that's ling<b>uist</b>

[bhk]

There should be something about water and tubs and how to use them in there.

[dick_grayson]

There should be something about water and tubs and how to use them in there.


Kablamo! ".....And the owner of the tan Ford Escort, you're lights are on. Thanks and Good-night!"

[bhk]

I forgot to post "Thank you, I'll be here every night this week."

[Pharoh]

I am honestly curious as to what any of our European based members, (participants or lurkers), feel about the prospects of this passing in France. My instincts tell me that movement will ultimately be in favor of passage, but I still have real hope that my instincts are wrong.

[wendersfan]

I think the problem with the French is that they somehow envision a situation in the future where a 'United Europe' is a superpower, and they are at the helm of Europe, thus regaining their rightful place in the world. Other than being a complete delusion, the principal problem with this is that the Germans have exactly the same vision about themselves.

[MikeHawks]

funny stuff. But he is a moron anyways.

[muggins]

I am honestly curious as to what any of our European based members, (participants or lurkers), feel about the prospects of this passing in France. My instincts tell me that movement will ultimately be in favor of passage, but I still have real hope that my instincts are wrong.


Well, I'm currently in a program studying European Spatial Planning, so of course the further integration of the EU is quite an interesting topic.

That aside, I was discussing with my thesis supervisor the other day the prospects of it passing. He seemed to have some doubts about the new constitution passing in countries where it was voted on by referendum (as opposed to Greece, Italy, Hungary, Slovenia, and Lithuania so far which have ratified it in Parliament). He seemed to think that there was a significant chance it won't pass in France, and that could essentially kill the process due to France's political clout in the EU, as well as the fact that all 25 members are required to ratify the new constitution for it to come into effect.

My thesis supervisor seemed to think part of the French public's hesitancy to accept the new constitution is due to Chirac selling the Nice treaty (the treaty handling the institutional changes for the enlargement in 2004) as being a perfect solution for France when he was trying to get that passed.

Now people seem to be a little hesitant, as if the Nice treaty was the best solution, why do they need a new constituion and such, or why should they trust Chirac?

[sfsdfd]

I think the problem with the French is that they somehow envision a situation in the future where a 'United Europe' is a superpower, and they are at the helm of Europe, thus regaining their rightful place in the world.
You're right - they're delusional. The near future is shaping up to be a contest between the U.S. and a united Asian bloc. We have good business skills, personality capital, and natural resources; they have an edge in population and technology. Europe has... interesting history and beer... not exactly strong assets for leading the world.

- David Stein

[JasonF]

You're right - they're delusional. The near future is shaping up to be a contest between the U.S. and a united Asian bloc. We have good business skills, personality capital, and natural resources; they have an edge in population and technology. Europe has... interesting history and beer... not exactly strong assets for leading the world.

- David Stein

Europe has plenty of technology and business skills. The U.S. GDP is a shade under $10 trillion, which is slightly less than the collective GDP of those countries which the U.S. government classifies as Western Europe.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableb2.xls

Europe right now is in the same place we were 225 years ago, when someone was likely to think of himself as a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian or a New Yorker, as opposed to an American. We cobbled together 13 different states (not provinces, but states) and managed to hold them together long enough for our citizens to develop a new identity as citizens of a single country. It wasn't easy -- our first attempt (the Articles of Confederation) failed, and our second attempt has been in serious jeopardy several times (most notably during the Civil War).

If the EU can hold itself together long enough so that people think of themselves as Europeans first and Germans or Frenchmen or Italians second, then they can be a world power. Otherwise, they'll remain a collection of second-, third-, and fourth- tier countries. But success won't come overnight, or even in our lifetimes.

And the only way Asia will unite is if it's under the treads of Chinese tanks. There ain't no way in hell you'll see a United Asia short of that.

[sfsdfd]

Europe has plenty of technology and business skills. The U.S. GDP is a shade under $10 trillion, which is slightly less than the collective GDP of those countries which the U.S. government classifies as Western Europe.
I completely agree with you - <i>if</i> they can begin acting more as a unit. Honestly, I'm not sure I see that happening in the short term. Certainly the colonies had a lot more incentive to work together, and fewer obstacles to doing so. We also had the benefit of working under one government (and yet, as you mentioned, even this was contested in war.)

Compare this with Europe, which clings to its territorial differences and centuries-old disputes, and which has very disparate sets of laws and governments. Maybe the challenge to their role in the world, based on the rise of Asia, will be incentive to set the past aside; but maybe not.
And the only way Asia will unite is if it's under the treads of Chinese tanks. There ain't no way in hell you'll see a United Asia short of that.
Not "united" as in one solid bloc of action. But what they lack in coordination, they make up for in sheer numbers. China has 1.3 billion people; India 1 billion - together comprising well over 1/3 of the world's people, and almost 6x America's.

- David Stein

[X]

Europe right now is in the same place we were 225 years ago, when someone was likely to think of himself as a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian or a New Yorker, as opposed to an American. We cobbled together 13 different states (not provinces, but states) and managed to hold them together long enough for our citizens to develop a new identity as citizens of a single country. It wasn't easy -- our first attempt (the Articles of Confederation) failed, and our second attempt has been in serious jeopardy several times (most notably during the Civil War).Except we had the whole rest of what became the U.S. to expand into. Europe doesn't have that luxury and will only be allocating what they already have among themselves hopefully in a consistent manner.

[gcbrowni]

Compare this with Europe, which clings to its territorial differences and centuries-old disputes, and which has very disparate sets of laws and governments. Maybe the challenge to their role in the world, based on the rise of Asia, will be incentive to set the past aside; but maybe not.


Fuedalism really did a number on Europe in almost every way possible. I would be surprised if 1500 years of feudal attitudes disappeared anytime soon.

[CRM114]

Does this mean we CAN eat french fries again or not? :hscratch:

[kvrdave]

Does this mean we CAN eat french fries again or not? :hscratch:


You may not!!!!


It is interesting. France is not a very big player when one looks at what they have to offer anyone, but the seem sure that they are meant to be a major part of everything. I do think this is how they see themselves getting back into some power. They need their own UN, and this will be it.

[Dimension X]

You may not!!!!
:(

These are okay though, right?

http://img257.echo.cx/img257/1695/frenchtoastpoptarts7at.jpg

[muggins]

You may not!!!!


It is interesting. France is not a very big player when one looks at what they have to offer anyone, but the seem sure that they are meant to be a major part of everything. I do think this is how they see themselves getting back into some power. They need their own UN, and this will be it.


Yeah...France definitely does have delusions of grandeur.

I think you're right in saying that France wants to use the EU as a tool to try and achieve that grandeur. But, I mean since its inception the EU has been dominated by France, and France has definitely profited from it.

Even now they still do. The budget of the EU in 2001 was 96 billion Euro. Of that budget, 45% went to the Common Agricultural Policy for the subsidization of farmers. Who has been the biggest recipient of funds from this since the CAP was first instituted? France of course.

And France of course has vetoed any attempts to reform it that would be detrimental to their "national interests".

[eXcentris]

The United States of Europe by T.R. Reid

Slanted and overly optimistic imho, but a very interesting read which provides a lot of insight on the inner political and economic workings of the European Union.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594200335/104-0953409-2966331?v=glance

[Pharoh]

Europe has plenty of technology and business skills. The U.S. GDP is a shade under $10 trillion, which is slightly less than the collective GDP of those countries which the U.S. government classifies as Western Europe.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableb2.xls

Europe right now is in the same place we were 225 years ago, when someone was likely to think of himself as a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian or a New Yorker, as opposed to an American. We cobbled together 13 different states (not provinces, but states) and managed to hold them together long enough for our citizens to develop a new identity as citizens of a single country. It wasn't easy -- our first attempt (the Articles of Confederation) failed, and our second attempt has been in serious jeopardy several times (most notably during the Civil War).

If the EU can hold itself together long enough so that people think of themselves as Europeans first and Germans or Frenchmen or Italians second, then they can be a world power. Otherwise, they'll remain a collection of second-, third-, and fourth- tier countries. But success won't come overnight, or even in our lifetimes.

And the only way Asia will unite is if it's under the treads of Chinese tanks. There ain't no way in hell you'll see a United Asia short of that.


I agree almost completely, but I don't see Europe ever being able to accomplish this. Further, I think the proposed EU constitution is horrendous, and if passed will never allow Europe to achieve what they desire to.

[Pharoh]

Well, I'm currently in a program studying European Spatial Planning, so of course the further integration of the EU is quite an interesting topic.

That aside, I was discussing with my thesis supervisor the other day the prospects of it passing. He seemed to have some doubts about the new constitution passing in countries where it was voted on by referendum (as opposed to Greece, Italy, Hungary, Slovenia, and Lithuania so far which have ratified it in Parliament). He seemed to think that there was a significant chance it won't pass in France, and that could essentially kill the process due to France's political clout in the EU, as well as the fact that all 25 members are required to ratify the new constitution for it to come into effect.

My thesis supervisor seemed to think part of the French public's hesitancy to accept the new constitution is due to Chirac selling the Nice treaty (the treaty handling the institutional changes for the enlargement in 2004) as being a perfect solution for France when he was trying to get that passed.

Now people seem to be a little hesitant, as if the Nice treaty was the best solution, why do they need a new constituion and such, or why should they trust Chirac?


Thanks. I was hoping you would respond. The Nice treaty aspect is an interesting one.

[JasonF]

I agree almost completely, but I don't see Europe ever being able to accomplish this. Further, I think the proposed EU constitution is horrendous, and if passed will never allow Europe to achieve what they desire to.

I agree with your first point. We had roughly 200 years of people developing identities as citizens of Massachusetts or South Carolina or wherever before we asked people to put that aside to become citizens of the United States, and even so, it took us at least four score and seven years to resolve issues that stemmed from that (some would say we're still working through those issues).

European countries, by contrast, have identities stretching back 1,000 years or more. Trying to cram the French, the English, the Germans, and all the rest into a single country just won't work. Look wht happened when they tried to cram the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, and all the rest into Yugoslavia -- as soon as they got any measure of freedom, ethnic strife blew the country apart.

I don't know anything about the constitution, so I can't comment on that.

[muggins]

(I realize this has already been mentioned in another thread)

Well, as predicted, the people of France said no.

Right now with 83% of the votes counted, it is 42.74 Yes and 57.26% No.


And voter turnout was estimated to be at over 70%.




In other news, on Friday the German parliament ratified the EU constitution.

[Mark_vdH]

Although I'll vote "Yes", I'm pretty sure we'll say "No" upcoming Wednesday too....