Politics + Religion = ?

[slop101]

I got this emailed to me, and even as a Christian, it sickened me:

DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme
Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law
givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full
frontal view... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have
the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings
and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our
Constitution" made the followingstatement:

"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the
capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and
all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves
according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great
nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on
religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the
established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts wouldoverstep their authority
and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law, anoligarchy,
the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for
220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

Forward this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and let
the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

Chamber, US House of Representatives

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very
hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten
Commandments on display or "In God WeTrust" on our money and
having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the
other 14% to Sit Down and BE QUIET If you agree, pass this on,
if not, simply delete.

Yeech! Um. Oh man, where to begin? Well, to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, There is no worse or more dangerous system of government than a theocracy.

As for the 10 commandments, I can't wait till the feds start arresting people for taking the Lord's name in vain and for making graven images. As for coveting our neighbor's wife and property--if we outlaw that, our entire economic system will collapse. But then how will we justify giving the wealthy business and corporation owners the choicest seats at the table? Uh oh...

The constitution is a secular document, regardless of its authors various--and I stress various--beliefs. The United States is the first--as far as I know--government founded on Enlightenment principles. If you want an alternative history--by a Christian author and published by Intervarsity Press--try "This Rebellious House" by Stephen J. Keillor. His thesis is that the U.S. can be used to support Christianity's plausibility, specifically God's claims about how bad humanity is. His evidence? How un-Christian the founding and history of the U.S. is, and how those who wish to achieve certain economic and political ends use divine--or even Christian--rhetoric to reach those ends. You can imagine why you've not heard of the book at Church. Most American Christians prefer to believe otherwise.

Finally, I would like to direct you toward recent comments of two of our leaders, the ones who would find this e-mail message most heartening, Rep. Tom Delay (House majority leader) and Sen. John Cornyn. What these two appear to want--and they're not alone--is to supplant the authority of the courts with the "higher" law. An example: We have an "arrogant, out of control, unaccountable judiciary that have thumbed their nose at the Congress and the president." That was Tom Delay last week. Hitler said almost the exact thing about the courts sixty years ago, before he shuttered them. I don't know if I'd go this far, but a chief antagonist of Hitler's--and thank God for his example!--was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who said, "Politics are not the task of a Christian."

I want to add that I do love living in this country, and I'm grateful for it. But that's because I'm allowed to "work out my faith in fear and trembling" of God and my own shortcomings, and not in fear and trembling of the Government.

[Sominex]

I just wanted to be first to respond

[JasonF]

I just wanted to be first to respond

Are the rest of us supposed to wait for you to formulate a response?

slop, I agree with the points you raise. I also would like to add that I have never been fond of the "But we've done it this way for 200 years" argument. As a general rule, a practice that contradicts with the law does not become legal due solely to the passage of time. We had "separate bue equal" for close to a century; the mere fact that it had lasted so long did not mean it was Constitutional.

[dtcarson]

one correction:

"As for coveting our neighbor's wife and property--if we outlaw that, our entire economic system will collapse. '

Not so. Coveting is
To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's).
To feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.

to me, that implies, "I want *his*". Not "I want what he's got." Not the same thing. If I'm single, and my neighbour is married, there's nothing with my thinking, "Hey, I'd like to married." The coveting comes in where, "Hey, I want to be married *to his wife*" and I feel an 'immoderate desire' to do so.

The Supreme Court building was not built in the last thirty years or so; those plaques and Ten Commandments have been there for a long time. We currently have a greater level of religious freedom and awareness than virtually every before. And we are currently involved in increasing religious freedom around the world.

" "arrogant, out of control, unaccountable judiciary that have thumbed their nose at the Congress and the president." " This I agree with, religion or not. Many components of the judiciary have taken it upon themselves to vastly increase their power or their 'interpretations' of the Constitution--polls and 'world opinion' shouldn't matter. Or might matter, but do not outweigh the Constitution.

I'm an atheist, and virtually none of that said above 'offends' me or disturbs me, except for the gratuitous Nazi reference. Hitler also once said, "I'd like a glass of water,", and I just said that too--I guess that makes me a Nazi. Henry, Jay, Madison, are allowed to say their own minds; many of the other things are factual [yes, money says In God We Trust];
all that notwithstanding, I still have the right to praise G*d, Allah, YHVH, Buddah, Satan, Zoroaster, Mother Gaea, or none of the above, as long as my actions in so praising are not illegal or harmful to others. On the contrary, it makes me proud that a country that was built on and has such a strong relationship to Christianity, *can* be as open, tolerant, and accepting of other religions.

This, of course, I don't agree with or support:
"Why don't we just tell the
other 14% to Sit Down and BE QUIET". I won't go into a Catholic church on Sunday and start shouting 'Praise Satan!', but I won't necessarily be quiet either. I won't force my beliefs on people of different beliefs, if they don't do it to me [which is exactly what this last phrase is trying to do.]

"how those who wish to achieve certain economic and political ends use divine--or even Christian--rhetoric to reach those ends."
People use lots of means to reach various ends. People say "If you loved me you'd..." does that mean love is bad?

[Breakfast with Girls]

Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and BE QUIET If you agree, pass this on, if not, simply delete.Yeah, opposing viewpoints suck!!

Also, it's neat that the author of this e-mail decided to "bear false witness" by lying about his or her identity.

[Venusian]

His thesis is that the U.S. can be used to support Christianity's plausibility, specifically God's claims about how bad humanity is. His evidence? How un-Christian the founding and history of the U.S. is, and how those who wish to achieve certain economic and political ends use divine--or even Christian--rhetoric to reach those ends.

huh? please explain more because i don't get that at all

[Venusian]

I also would like to add that I have never been fond of the "But we've done it this way for 200 years" argument.
i think some people raise it to counter those who claim we are on the verge of slipping into a theocracy. Religion and govt were much more intertwined in the past than in the present

[slop101]

huh? please explain more because i don't get that at all

An example would be using Bilble passages to justify slave trade.

One more thing -
I am absolutely convinced that the "culture wars," of which this 10 Commandments message is a part of, are perpetuated by Christians as a way to evade--or justify evading, though never in these terms--their responsibilities as part of the Kingdom of God, which is, by definition, a spiritual and NOT a political entity. If, as the wealthiest church in the world, you are failing in large part to take care of the "least of these", i.e. the poor and oppressed--a litmus test for following Christ if there ever was one- it's much easier to blame "the liberal press" or "the culture" or the government. Passing legislation--or playing the victim when it fails to pass--is much easier and less troubling than daily, in humility and obscurity, picking up your cross and bearing it to your own demise.

[Red Dog]

Always nice to have a fresh topic in the Politics Forum. ;)

[Geofferson]

= a bad dinner date conversation

[al_bundy]

I got this emailed to me, and even as a Christian, it sickened me:



Yeech! Um. Oh man, where to begin? Well, to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, There is no worse or more dangerous system of government than a theocracy.

As for the 10 commandments, I can't wait till the feds start arresting people for taking the Lord's name in vain and for making graven images. As for coveting our neighbor's wife and property--if we outlaw that, our entire economic system will collapse. But then how will we justify giving the wealthy business and corporation owners the choicest seats at the table? Uh oh...

The constitution is a secular document, regardless of its authors various--and I stress various--beliefs. The United States is the first--as far as I know--government founded on Enlightenment principles. If you want an alternative history--by a Christian author and published by Intervarsity Press--try "This Rebellious House" by Stephen J. Keillor. His thesis is that the U.S. can be used to support Christianity's plausibility, specifically God's claims about how bad humanity is. His evidence? How un-Christian the founding and history of the U.S. is, and how those who wish to achieve certain economic and political ends use divine--or even Christian--rhetoric to reach those ends. You can imagine why you've not heard of the book at Church. Most American Christians prefer to believe otherwise.

Finally, I would like to direct you toward recent comments of two of our leaders, the ones who would find this e-mail message most heartening, Rep. Tom Delay (House majority leader) and Sen. John Cornyn. What these two appear to want--and they're not alone--is to supplant the authority of the courts with the "higher" law. An example: We have an "arrogant, out of control, unaccountable judiciary that have thumbed their nose at the Congress and the president." That was Tom Delay last week. Hitler said almost the exact thing about the courts sixty years ago, before he shuttered them. I don't know if I'd go this far, but a chief antagonist of Hitler's--and thank God for his example!--was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who said, "Politics are not the task of a Christian."

I want to add that I do love living in this country, and I'm grateful for it. But that's because I'm allowed to "work out my faith in fear and trembling" of God and my own shortcomings, and not in fear and trembling of the Government.


DID YOU KNOW:

The Ten Commandments and many parts of The Bible are the foundation of the basic laws of the US


Did C.S. Lewis say that quote before or after JRR Tolkien converted him to Christianity?

Enlightenment doesn't mean a lack of belief in God and many of the documents on which the US government is based such as the Declaration of Independence have the word God in them. Should we cross it out?

[Red Dog]

= a bad dinner date conversation


:lol::thumbsup:

[Tracer Bullet]

DID YOU KNOW:

The Ten Commandments and many parts of The Bible are the foundation of the basic laws of the US


Did C.S. Lewis say that quote before or after JRR Tolkien converted him to Christianity?

Enlightenment doesn't mean a lack of belief in God and many of the documents on which the US government is based such as the Declaration of Independence have the word God in them. Should we cross it out?

Wow! These arguments are new and bewildering. I have come over entirely to your way of thinking.

[Venusian]

An example would be using Bilble passages to justify slave trade.

One more thing -
I am absolutely convinced that the "culture wars," of which this 10 Commandments message is a part of, are perpetuated by Christians as a way to evade--or justify evading, though never in these terms--their responsibilities as part of the Kingdom of God, which is, by definition, a spiritual and NOT a political entity. If, as the wealthiest church in the world, you are failing in large part to take care of the "least of these", i.e. the poor and oppressed--a litmus test for following Christ if there ever was one- it's much easier to blame "the liberal press" or "the culture" or the government. Passing legislation--or playing the victim when it fails to pass--is much easier and less troubling than daily, in humility and obscurity, picking up your cross and bearing it to your own demise.

i agree with those points but what does it have to do with: How un-Christian the founding and history of the U.S. is

[CRM114]

Were these all "Christian" events? Burning and killing "witches." The genocide of the Native Americans. Enslaving a race of people brought here from another continent? Are you kidding, Venusian?

[classicman2]

Politics + religion = what we've had since the foundation of the Republic.

[classicman2]

Were these all "Christian" events? Burning and killing "witches." The genocide of the Native Americans. Enslaving a race of people brought here from another continent? Are you kidding, Venusian?

What continent is that?

[Venusian]

Were these all "Christian" events? Burning and killing "witches." The genocide of the Native Americans. Enslaving a race of people brought here from another continent? Are you kidding, Venusian?
the founding of this country was not based on those things

[CRM114]

What continent is that?

Um, Canada?

[CRM114]

the founding of this country was not based on those things

The founding of this country was most certainly based on those things.

[dick_grayson]

this should be good

[slop101]

i agree with those points but what does it have to do with: How un-Christian the founding and history of the U.S. is

It doesn't - just that first point about the slave trade does.
read more about it here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830818774/qid=1112985071/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7104269-1949462?v=glance&s=books

Also, I'm sure my logic is faulty in numerous places.
Feel free to hack away at it or ignore it.

[Venusian]

The founding of this country was most certainly based on those things.
I was unaware how much the salem witch trials affected the founding of this country - please expound on this

[Venusian]

It doesn't - just that first point about the slave trade does.
read more about it here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830818774/dvdtalk/qid=1112985071/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7104269-1949462?v=glance&s=books

Also, I'm sure my logic is faulty in numerous places.
Feel free to hack away at it or ignore it.
it looks like an interesting book. i might have to check it out some time

[CRM114]

I was unaware how much the salem witch trials affected the founding of this country - please expound on this

The early settlers in New England were Puritans. You had history class, right?

[Venusian]

Yes I did have history class and I am well aware that the early settlers of New England were Puritans.

Again, what does that have to do with the founding of the country?

[classicman2]

The best book (IMO) on the slave trade to North American is a book by Philip Curtin, former head of the history department at Johns Hopkins University.

I'm not certain it's still in print, but it was/is considered the definitive work in the field. BTW: His somewhat controversial findings have been verified by the research of at least 2 other scholars on the subject.

BTW: The name of the book is The Atlantic Slave Trade.

[mikehunt]

well over 100 years before the Constitution was written
you might have a point with slavery, since blacks were 3/5ths of a person in the Constitution, but the witch part doesn't really connect to the founding of the US. If so there wouldn't have been a 1st Amendment written like it was, it would have made an exception for witch craft

[kvrdave]

Personally, I think that it goes to show that our country can have religious symbolism, etc. and we still don't have to worry about a theocracy. How long have those things been there? Essentially since the country came to being (a little after, but essentially). And we have survived this long with Moses and the Ten Commandments on some of our government buildings, I don't think we have to worry about a theocracy.

But it makes me wonder about the people who cry about that kind of thing. It hasn't happened. And today we have less "religion" in government than at any time in the past, and yet they still love to "fear" that the Christians are taking over.

[CRM114]

I wasn't aware that we were restricting the founding of the country to strictly the time of Constitutional Convention.

[classicman2]

Was it a country before the Articles of Confederation?

Did the 13th colonies comprise a country?

[kvrdave]

Is there any proof that there were any witches burned at the stake? Or is that one of those things "we just all know"?

[CRM114]

But it makes me wonder about the people who cry about that kind of thing. It hasn't happened. And today we have less "religion" in government than at any time in the past, and yet they still love to "fear" that the Christians are taking over.

Hmmm, federal judges arbitrarily deciding to have a 3 ton Ten Commandments monument put in front of the court house might have something to do with it. And then he looks at us like WE are the nutty ones. Its all these little things that are attempted to be slipped into everyday life. No, I absolutely do not want any sort of prayer activity for my daughter while in school. No, I don't want my taxes going to fund any particular religious activity.

[classicman2]

4,000,000

[CRM114]

Is there any proof that there were any witches burned at the stake? Or is that one of those things "we just all know"?

I think they were hung.

[classicman2]

No, I don't want my taxes going to fund any particular religious activity.

I'm certain nearly American doesn't want his/her taxes going to fund something or another.

[Red Dog]

Personally, I think that it goes to show that our country can have religious symbolism, etc. and we still don't have to worry about a theocracy. How long have those things been there? Essentially since the country came to being (a little after, but essentially). And we have survived this long with Moses and the Ten Commandments on some of our government buildings, I don't think we have to worry about a theocracy.



I don't know about that. Didn't most of these religious 'additions' come well after the founding of the country, whether it be etchings in the SCt (1930s), adding 'Under God' to the pledge (1954) and 'In God we Trust' to coins (1864) and currency (1957)? I think most of the 10C monuments have come in the last half-century.

[CRM114]

I'm certain nearly American doesn't want his/her taxes going to fund something or another.

I agree but most of those other things aren't based on a mythology.

[classicman2]

And has just what to do with the discussion?

Or were you simply making your usual attack against religion?

[CRM114]

Sigh. You ask for clarification and then don't like the answer.

[sfsdfd]

Personally, I think that it goes to show that our country can have religious symbolism, etc. and we still don't have to worry about a theocracy. How long have those things been there?
That was my initial reaction, too. However, I think it's beyond question that our country has become more religiously diverse over the last 50 years, and the sense that politics should maintain an arm's length from politics - not just in function but also in form - has grown.
And today we have less "religion" in government than at any time in the past, and yet they still love to "fear" that the Christians are taking over.
It's not a "taking over" so much as a "pushing back in." The general sense (from the non-Christian body politic) is that the government made great strides in treating people fairly - and that now it's starting to slip backwards. Again, I think this is beyond dispute: just look at the size and operation of the new "White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives" (created in 2001.)

Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

When government is functionally neutral, non-Christians will tolerate "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill as an anachronism and symbol of history. But there are functional changes toward more Christian ideals: the FCC's Puritanical sense of decency, government withdrawal of funding of embryonic stem-cell research due to Christian notions of life, and of course Terri Schiavo. That functional shift is making us more sensitive to <i>both</i> the function <i>and</i> the form of the Christian-government tying relationship.

- David Stein

[CRM114]

Does the "White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives" fund programs by Satanists? How about Muslims? Buddhists? CRM114ists?

[slop101]

But there are functional changes toward more Christian ideals: the FCC's Puritanical sense of decency, government withdrawal of funding of embryonic stem-cell research due to Christian notions of life, and of course Terri Schiavo. That functional shift is making us more sensitive to <i>both</i> the function <i>and</i> the form of the Christian-government tying relationship.

- David Stein

And my point is that these things you list as "Christian ideals" have little or nothing to do with living your life as a follower of Christ, but as justifications for pushing a conservative agenda that has more to do with power and control than it does to love God and Man.

[CRM114]

And my point is that these things you list as "Christian ideals" have little or nothing to do with living your life as a follower of Christ, but as justifications for pushing a conservative agenda that has more to do with power and control than it does to love God and Man.

That was refreshing.

[kvrdave]

I agree but most of those other things aren't based on a mythology.

:lol: I don't think much of the Shriner's beliefs, but I still think they do some incredible things wrt hospital care for children. If a church helps people and if funded in some way from the gov't (just like under Clinton), I don't have a real problem with it.

[Duran]

DID YOU KNOW:

The Ten Commandments and many parts of The Bible are the foundation of the basic laws of the US


Absolute bullshit.

[JasonF]

I think they were hung.

Most of them were hanged; one was crushed under a large stone (a technique called "pressing"); several died in jail. None were burned at the stake.

A few of the people killed were male, but I don't think we have any evidence on whether they were hung.

[Tracer Bullet]

A few of the people killed were male, but I don't think we have any evidence on whether they were hung.

Did anyone ever ask their wives?

[Venusian]

government withdrawal of funding of embryonic stem-cell research due to Christian notions of life, and of course Terri Schiavo.
you realize it is more than a Christian notion of life, right?

[Venusian]

Does the "White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives" fund programs by Satanists? How about Muslims? Buddhists? CRM114ists?
i would assume they do fund muslims and buddhists. do they not?

[CRM114]

:lol: I don't think much of the Shriner's beliefs, but I still think they do some incredible things wrt hospital care for children. If a church helps people and if funded in some way from the gov't (just like under Clinton), I don't have a real problem with it.

I have little problem with organizations that have no directive to inject their religion into their charity work. As soon as that happens, I take issue.

But then again, there are many charities who could accept the funding and perform the duties that are NOT affiliated with religion.

[CRM114]

i would assume they do fund muslims and buddhists. do they not?

Thats what I'm asking.

[Venusian]

No, I absolutely do not want any sort of prayer activity for my daughter while in school.
doesn't this show there is less religion in public now? prayer is school was allowed and required in the past

[Venusian]

Thats what I'm asking. then, yes.

[CRM114]

doesn't this show there is less religion in public now? prayer is school was allowed and required in the past

But many people want it back IN schools. Thats the issue that sfsdfd was raising. We can tolerate religion but when you keep trying to insert bits and pieces of it into secular life, we take issue.

[CRM114]

then, yes.

Satanists? Wiccans? Is there a criteria on the "faith?" My group worships tuna sandwiches. Will I be given equal opportunity on grants?

[Red Dog]

doesn't this show there is less religion in public now? prayer is school was allowed and required in the past


That wasn't because government (schools) decided to stop doing it. It was because the SCt deemed public school prayer unconstitutional.

[classicman2]

Did the SC deem public school prayer unconsitutional?

[sfsdfd]

And my point is that these things you list as "Christian ideals" have little or nothing to do with living your life as a follower of Christ, but as justifications for pushing a conservative agenda that has more to do with power and control than it does to love God and Man.
Interesting. You're suggesting that the religion thing is just a facade for an out-of-control government that's not representing the people.

Usually the other argument is offered: Bush <i>is</i> representing a good chunk of the people - at least 50.01% of them - and therefore his actions are condoned on that basis. In other words, he's promoting Christian ideals because the majority want them.

Individually, each position is weak. Together, they're inconsistent. The problem is that conservatives offer <i>both</i> arguments. When Bush does something they support, he's a solid Christian leader; when he doesn't, he's just doing something different. But it can't be both.

- David Stein

[Red Dog]

Did the SC deem public school prayer unconsitutional?

School-led prayer, yes. See ABINGTON SCHOOL DIST. v. SCHEMPP.

Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment by Congress of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, no state law or school board may require that passages from the Bible be read or that the Lord's Prayer be recited in the public schools of a State at the beginning of each school day - even if individual students may be excused from attending or participating in such exercises upon written request of their parents.

[sfsdfd]

It was because the SCt deemed public school prayer unconstitutional.Did the SC deem public school prayer unconsitutional?
Didn't Hamilton say something about prayer in schools while he was signing the Declaration of Independence - or maybe it was the Magna Carta? Either way, isn't this really a strict interpretation vs. living-document issue?

<b>Red Dog</b> and <b>classicman2</b>, please discuss. And please include your thoughts on the interplay of this issue with substantive due process, the Dred Scott case, the rights of prisoners of war being held in Guantanamo Bay, and the legislative process behind FDR's New Deal.

I'll check back in when you've finished this discussion - see you in October.

- David Stein

[classicman2]

But you originally didn't say school-led prayer. I just don't want our members to be given the impression that the SC has held prayer in public school to be unconstitutional. :)

[kvrdave]

Did anyone ever ask their wives?


Those lying whores used to be frogs....you gonna' believe them? -wink-

[Red Dog]

Didn't Hamilton say something about prayer in schools while he was signing the Declaration of Independence - or maybe it was the Magna Carta? Either way, isn't this really a strict interpretation vs. living-document issue?

<b>Red Dog</b> and <b>classicman2</b>, please discuss. And please include your thoughts on the interplay of this issue with substantive due process, the Dred Scott case, the rights of prisoners of war being held in Guantanamo Bay, and the legislative process behind FDR's New Deal.

I'll check back in when you've finished this discussion - see you in October.

- David Stein


You can't force these arguments.

I'm here to amuze you?!

[Red Dog]

But you originally didn't say school-led prayer. I just don't want our members to be given the impression that the SC has held prayer in public school to be unconstitutional. :)


I know you really wanted to trap me, but alas, I caught my error in time. That map debacle still irks you doesn't it? :)

I'm sure you would never give that false impression (exagerrate the facts of a case) yourself, cough * Muleshoe football game * cough. :lol:

[classicman2]

Hamilton was a great thinker.

He was also a poor shot.

BTW: He now has become Red Dog's 'favorite' framer - replacing Madison, hasn't he, Red Dog? ;)

[Red Dog]

BTW: He now has become Red Dog's 'favorite' framer - replacing Madison, hasn't he, Red Dog? ;)


Why would you say that? :hscratch: I guess I don't understand the c-man humor sometimes.

[classicman2]

Well you agree with him on judicial review, don't you?

[sfsdfd]

Well you agree with him on judicial review, don't you?
[sfsdfd raises arms in triumph]

- David Stein

[dtcarson]

I don't mind prayer 'in' school. I mind prayer 'led by' school.

"But there are functional changes toward more Christian ideals: the FCC's Puritanical sense of decency, government withdrawal of funding of embryonic stem-cell research due to Christian notions of life, and of course Terri Schiavo."

The funny thing is, I'm not a Christian, but I agree to some extent with the 'Christian ideal' viewpoint on all of those issues.

The White House [and Congress, both republican and democrat] fund lots of things that lots of people wouldn't like. I was sorely disappointed in whatshisname, Mapplethorpe, getting my money for his 'art'. I also don't want Ted Stevens sucking my money for his useless pet projects in Alaska.
I don't necessarily mind my money going to religious programs, as long as the program itself isn't necessarily religious. But even then, the federal government gives our money to lots of people and groups and organizations that I might not 'agree' with, so I don't see why religious groups are picked out of that list. As long as I'm not 'forced' by the federal government, to worship or not worship in a certain way, "church" and "state" are still separated.

[classicman2]

Speaking of judicial review - I wonder if Hamilton wrote about the Marbury vs. Madison decision?

I know some of the framers did.

[Red Dog]

Well you agree with him on judicial review, don't you?


Yeah and you agree with CRM114 on the concept of the social contract. Does that make you and him best buds? :lol:

[CRM114]

More power to the kids that want to spend their recess or lunchtime praying.

[classicman2]

They can pray (silently) in class.

Whether they can pray aloud has not been decided, I don't believe.

[Breakfast with Girls]

Whether they can pray aloud has not been decided, I don't believe.:lol: Oh yeah, I'm sure that would go over well in the middle of class.

[slop101]

Interesting. You're suggesting that the religion thing is just a facade for an out-of-control government that's not representing the people.

Sort of, but not really - I'm saying that if this "Christian administration" truly understood what it means to follow Christ, they wouldn't waste their time with meaningless and futile fights like the 10 Commandments or "broadcast decency" and "right to life"--whatever the hell that means--, but would instead fight injustices throughout the world, and really help people while protecting it's own. I'm sure they think they're doing right by God, but if they understood how they're coming across, they'll see that they're no different than the self-righteous religious leaders that persecuted Jesus.

Most people--Christian and otherwise--would really not want to be asked to be held up to truly Christian ideals, as it would involve an inordinate amount of service and self-sacrifice. But that's what we're called to and what we should strive for.

If this administration never played the "Christian-card", my only argument would be with their policy itself - but I'm offended by the fact that they think this policy is backed by God, when there are so many other truly urgent matters a Christian should fight for.

[slop101]

But going back to the 10 Commandments thing - it's this sort of pomposity that is the exact kind of bullshit that pisses me off about most "Christians"... it's propaganda, pure and simple. If you're so insecure in your faith that not having the 10 Commandments in a fedral builiding (or no prayer in school, or bad words on the radio, or Jante Jacksons tit, or blah blah blah) worries you, then you have far bigger problems, which you've been blinded to by your empty religious ideals.

[classicman2]

I didn't say whether it would go over well. I said I don't believe the court has ruled on it.

The court's business should be the constititution - not what it goes over well.

[dtcarson]

I didn't say whether it would go over well. I said I don't believe the court has ruled on it.

The court's business should be the constititution - not what it goes over well.

Well, as long as they look at a few polls and see what the 'world opinion' is first.

[X]

Politics + Religion = Spit ironic ill ego