Europe - AP--2 minutes ago

JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer MOSCOW - More than a dozen attackers carrying guns and reportedly wrapped in suicide-bomb belts seized an elementary school in the Russian region of North Ossetia Wednesday morning and were holding hundreds of hostages, including some 200 children.

The seizure took place on the first day of the Russian school year, just after a ceremony marking the start of classes. The attackers drove up in a covered truck of a type often used for troop transport. North Ossetia border with warring Chechnya.

articlecontinueshere (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040901/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure&cid=518&ncid=716)

-ohbfrank-

Definitely not a good thing.

wow, they've taken themselves to a new low.


I guess russia can't use the same tactics as at the theater here...well they could, maybe they've improved the gas.


:( at this world

how's this not top news on cnn.com or foxnews.com

The "Religion of Peace" strikes again ...

this barely has to do with religion.

its people wanting "freedom" or more likely power

Originally posted by Venusian
this barely has to do with religion.

its people wanting "freedom" or more likely power



Yep. The militants are claiming to want direct talks with Murat Zyazikov, the president of Ingushetia. This apparently, and somewhat surprisingly, has little to do with the situation in South Ossetia, whose President has left for the North to aid in the situation, and Georgia.

:(

From the article:

The hostage-takers at the school demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June...A militant Muslim web site published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the "Islambouli Brigades," a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe there is a link to religion... these aren't neighborhood friends that are trying to release their old high school buddies....

Originally posted by BradJ
From the article:

The hostage-takers at the school demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June...A militant Muslim web site published a statement claiming responsibility for the bombing on behalf of the "Islambouli Brigades," a group that also claimed responsibility for the airliner crashes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe there is a link to religion... these aren't neighborhood friends that are trying to release their old high school buddies....


Perhaps, but only as a subtext. It it wasn't religion, it would be some other excuse.

no these are terrorists who want control over a piece of land. they are fighting for power. they realized that most of the other people that support them share a religion so they figure if they add the religious name to it, they'll get backing from others. It worked. now (some) muslims everywhere support them atleast in word.

similar situation in N. Ireland with Protestants against Catholics. its not about religion, its about power

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040901_399.html


At one point, a girl of about age 7 in a floral print dress and a red bow in her hair streaked around a corner apparently after fleeing from the school, followed by an older woman. Russian news reports said about 50 students managed to escape, some after hiding in the school's boiler room during the raid.





first off, elementary kids shouldnt have to think of ways ot escape terrorists :(

secondly, the stupid terrorists got out smarted by elementary kids :lol:

This sounds like a TOY SOLDIER-type situation. ;)

But seriously, this is awful and I hope those students and the faculty make it out alive. Now the motherfuckers who took them hostage - I hope they die a slow, painful death.

the ABC article mentions they took a hospital in 95. i dont remember that but guess i was young. Russia did their thing and ended it but not before killings 100 of their own. At first it would look like a good solution, the terorrists dont win. but it hasnt stopped them yet :(

For religion, for power, for what-the-hell-ever, this bullshit is in no way whatsoever defensible.

I read the AP article just before coming here, and it just makes me sick. I say use the gas they used in the theater, but then, I bet the terrorists, or rebels, or freedom fighters, or whatever you choose to call them, probably got wise and have gas masks this time. How can I defend the use of the gas when so many hostages died in the theater? Well, at least they have more of a chance of surviving the gas than the victims of the plane 'crashes' last week, or the subway station blast.

In any event, fuck these bastards straight to hell. There is no honor in or justification for taking a school hostage.

Originally posted by Pharoh
Perhaps, but only as a subtext. It it wasn't religion, it would be some other excuse.

Interesting statement, and to an extent, I agree...

But it isn't "some other excuse", it's religion... now, whether or not their connection is justified, they are still banding together behind the umbrella of Islam. Even if it is a weak connection used for nothing more than credibility, perception is reality. Since there exists an albeit weak connection, that connection is what joins them... and therefore, my statement stands... The "Religion of Peace" strikes again.

If they were attacking children, using them as human shields on the windows of the school, on behalf of redheads, it would be different...

... and by no means am I suggesting that Muslims are alone in their insanity... Christian fundamentalists and their abortion clinic bombings... Catholic fundamentalists and the ongoing war vs. the I.R.A.... Jewish fundamentalists and, uh, um...?

- Brad
- Catholic (sort of)

i wasn't trying to defend these people in any way. i just think its too easy to blame is on islam or religion in general. these people are crazy and they want power. they found an easy way to get followers is to elicit a common bond among the people and they found the bond that works in this case is religion

Sorry, Venusian, I didn't mean to imply that you were defending them... I didn't get that at all. I just see their religion as more of a unifying factor among all of the various attacks, especially lately...

news.yahoo.com has some video of the russian military taking up positions around the school... crazy stuff...

Current News:

FoxNews: 8 Hostages are dead (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131060,00.html)

CNN: 7 Hostages are dead (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/01/russia.school/index.html)

The terrorists are threatening to detonate the school if the police enter the building.

Simply sad and disgusting. I can't imagine how this is going to end peacefully.

Holy carp. This sucks. :(

Taking an elementary school.

Wow.

Just.... just wow.

It takes a real man to strike out... against children.

Unbelievable.

This kind of cowardy behavior makes me want to advocate killing every one of the terrorists' family members.

wasn't the reason the gas killed so many due to the russian military wanting ot keep the gas a secret and not telling the EMS guys how to neutralize it?

Originally posted by Venusian
wow, they've taken themselves to a new low.


I guess russia can't use the same tactics as at the theater here...well they could, maybe they've improved the gas.


:( at this world

The identities of the kidnappers remain unknown. Negotiations are underway, including Leonid Roshal offering his services.

Russia needs to do something because this is getting out of hand

Originally posted by raven56706
Russia needs to do something because this is getting out of hand


One of the reasons I am not surprised that this sort of thing hasn't happened in America, is because of capabilities. Russia, as a nation and as a society, doesn't have the necessary capabilities to stop this.

Originally posted by Pharoh
Russia, as a nation and as a society, doesn't have the necessary capabilities to stop this.
Honestly, I don't see how we do either.

I have to agree with Thor. The US has no more capabilities than any other nation when it comes to terrorist behavior. And actually, I think the US is a much softer target. It's just a matter of time before some people get a clue and start doing things over here.

Originally posted by Pharoh
One of the reasons I am not surprised that this sort of thing hasn't happened in America, is because of capabilities. Russia, as a nation and as a society, doesn't have the necessary capabilities to stop this.

Yup!


One thing has not changed since then: corruption in Russia is so rife that Chechen fighters can make their way through any number of heavily armed checkpoints simply by paying bribes.

One Chechen driver recently estimated that the price of ferrying a bomb through a Russian army checkpoint was 500 roubles (£9 or $17).

That means that to defeat this problem the Russian president needs completely to overhaul his security services.


Not to mention that instead ot trying to mobilize and gain the support of the majority of the Chechen population who reject fundamentalist Islam, Putin has done nothing but exclude and alienate them.

Originally posted by Venusian
no these are terrorists who want control over a piece of land. they are fighting for power. they realized that most of the other people that support them share a religion so they figure if they add the religious name to it, they'll get backing from others. It worked. now (some) muslims everywhere support them atleast in word.

similar situation in N. Ireland with Protestants against Catholics. its not about religion, its about power

Well yes and no. The (somewhat moderate) pro-independence Chechen rebels who were fighting in the 90's have slowly been replaced by a new breed of Islamic fundamentalists Chechens on a mission of Jihad. A lot of them were trained in Afghanistan by Al Quaeda and I would argue that a lot of them aren't Chechens at all. The majority of the Chechen population reject Islamic fundamentalism. And as I noted above, Putin did absolutely nothing to gain the support of that population.

Originally posted by Venusian
similar situation in N. Ireland with Protestants against Catholics. its not about religion, its about power

Correct. It has never been about religion in the north of Ireland. It is just easier for the media to report it that way. It just so happens that the majority of one religion is on one side while the other mostly happen to be on another side. The struggle in Ireland is about uniting Ireland as one country (as it will one day again be) and equal rights for Irish in the north.

If you want to learn more on the subject, check out these books:

Trinity by Leon Uris (describes very well the hundreds of years of history...)

Belfast Diary (a journalist's accounts of living in the north of Ireland - having a false pretention, then learning from his surroundings).

Or for DVD fans... check out Bloody Sunday (where you will see that the leader of the Irish Civil Rights movement happend to be protestant and saw how the Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens and he had the balls to do something about it.

Or Some Mother's Son (I think only available on VHS right now). This goes through the history of the hunger strikers. Very powerful movie.

Sorry to sidetrack this thread, I just wanted to clarify that one very previlant misconception.

Well, if you had terrorist acts in your nation, wouldn't you exclude and alienate them? I sure would. I expect the same in the US.

Russia's Alfa terrorist team will probably get this over with by Friday or the weekend. I don't see how these guys can think their terrorist buds being set free is going to help any. They will be hunted down and slaughtered.

But I do have to admit, these acts are better coordinated than what Al Qaeda have tried to do (post 9/11). Al Qaeda speaks more than they talk. The Chechen terrorists act more than they talk. I would fear these Chechen terrorists more than Al Qaeda.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I have to agree with Thor. The US has no more capabilities than any other nation when it comes to terrorist behavior.
It didn't take 15 armed men to do this here, it took two punks that went to the school. And they could have blown the place up if they did it right. The outcome was tragic and could have been much worse.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Well, if you had terrorist acts in your nation, wouldn't you exclude and alienate them? I sure would. I expect the same in the US.



Please see my 2nd post. :)

As for the current situation in Russia. I honestly do not know a lot about the struggle and so I can't comment with any strength where the fault lies (as I hate it when people assume to know what happens in the north of Ireland when reality is not reported often). But I have to say it is never acceptable to harm or threaten to harm innocent children. I do hope and pray they find some peaceful resolution and avoid killing more innocents.

Well, the weakest points in a civilized society will always reap a terrorist large body counts.

Russia + Chechnya = Israeli + Palestinian
they going down that path

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
It didn't take 15 armed men to do this here, it took two punks that went to the school. And they could have blown the place up if they did it right. The outcome was tragic and could have been much worse.

Exactly. Harris and Klebold had free reign of Columbine High, wandering the halls while the cops and SWAT twiddled their thumbs outside, afraid to do anything. Surprised it has happened since.

I'm all for the "terrorist kills our children, we kill terrorist's entire family" argument.

They're more than ready and willing to die for Allah, but are they willing to sacrifice their son? Daughter? Mom? Grandmother? Uncle Moishe?

This is extreme. But I think it's a language they'll easily understand.

Originally posted by Matt Millheiser
I'm all for the "terrorist kills our children, we kill terrorist's entire family" argument.

They're more than ready and willing to die for Allah, but are they willing to sacrifice their son? Daughter? Mom? Grandmother? Uncle Moishe?

This is extreme. But I think it's a language they'll easily understand.


Uncle Moishe???? damn he is still alive..... that bastard

Originally posted by Matt Millheiser
I'm all for the "terrorist kills our children, we kill terrorist's entire family" argument.

They're more than ready and willing to die for Allah, but are they willing to sacrifice their son? Daughter? Mom? Grandmother? Uncle Moishe?

This is extreme. But I think it's a language they'll easily understand.
Some terrorists have been disowned by their own families.

How come I have a feeling that a VERY low percentage of terrorists have an Uncle Moishe?

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
Some terrorists have been disowned by their own families. They should disown them the old fashioned way: with a boat-hook.

I would say that if I had a cousin or a brother or a father running around blowing up children and innocents, in the name of God or Country or Power, I'd personally put a bullet in his brain and not regret it for a minute.

But then again I'm a MAJOR douchebag sometimes.

Originally posted by Myster X
Russia + Chechnya = Israeli + Palestinian
they going down that path


Big difference in the makeup of the population, and whom that populace supports.

I had a long post typed out and almost finished about why these type of attacks will not become the norm in America. However, I became too distracted to finish it and I am too lazy to redo it. So, my feelings were summed up nicely by eX Our society and our security forces are eminently more prepared to deal with these situtions, deal with them before they even happen. I am absolutely convinced that planned attacks since 9/11 have been thwarted, as example.

Can isolated incidences happen? Of course they can, and might. The people and government of America make this frequently happening almost an impossibility.

WWSD?

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/stalin1.jpg

Originally posted by covenant
WWSD?

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/stalin1.jpg



He couldn't screw it up much more than the Russians have done with their two previous situations that were similar.

Originally posted by Pharoh
Big difference in the makeup of the population, and whom that populace supports.

Doesn't matter. Chechnya is pretty much lawless and any gov't officials show their support for mother Russia are targeted. I don't think the militants think twice which side the populace suports. They simply want the Russians out.

Originally posted by Myster X
Doesn't matter. Chechnya is pretty much lawless and any gov't officials show their support for mother Russia are targeted. I don't think the militants think twice which side the populace suports. They simply want the Russians out.


It does matter though. As my Canadian friend correctly pointed out, most of those engaged in committing acts of violent terrorism are not same individuals as those who were fighting ten years ago. They are fundamentalist who desire to implement Sharia so that they can control the population, a population who doesn't by and large want them there. I understand what you are saying, but perhaps a more analogous situation would be the ones in the Phillipines or even Afghanistan. Of course it is unique because of the whole autonomy issue.

Originally posted by Pharoh
It does matter though. As my Canadian friend correctly pointed out, most of those engaged in committing acts of violent terrorism are not same individuals as those who were fighting ten years ago. They are fundamentalist who desire to implement Sharia so that they can control the population, a population who doesn't by and large want them there. I understand what you are saying, but perhaps a more analogous situation would be the ones in the Phillipines or even Afghanistan. Of course it is unique because of the whole autonomy issue.
The real problem here is that the Chechans may not want to be ruled by Wahabi Islam, BUT they definitely don't want to be ruled by Russia. That bridge has been burned for a long time. Russia is really screwed on this one and so are the Chechans, beause if they are able to drive out the Russians, then you're looking at another Taliban-style government in Chechnya and simply for that fact, I support the Russians in Chechnya as a bolster against radical Islam. It's amazing how things have flip flopped since the fall of the Soviet Union. These are some serious bastards the Russians are facing in Chechnya. They're lopping off heads as fast as they are in Iraq except the mass media rarely focuses on Chechnya as much as they do Iraq.

This is going to be one bloody September. Chechnya-Russia, Israel-Palestine, US-Iraq. It seems like "chatter" (as US Intel likes to call it in their public news reports) is going up exponentially all across the board.

Don't forget UN/Pakistan/Afghanistan. They're having elections too.

VinVega,

Back in 1994 when all this crap started (basically anyway), Chechen Terrorists herded civilians into a hospital and held them hostage. The major points were, Russia gave these guys way too much time to dig in and fight a good fight. The "truce" brokedown but since so much time passed, the Chechens had positioned themselves for a good reply to superior Russian forces.

January 1996, around 245 terrorists (or militants) took as many as 3,000 hostages were held in a hospital in lieu of freed prisoners from Russian prisons. Salman Raduyev was the leader of this group. Russia said "ok" and they let most people go but took a good number across the Chechnya-Russian border, which is where Russian forces met them with force. Many hostages died, and it was a fiasco.

October 2002, 700 people taken hostage in Moscow in a theatre. Russian troops came in an swarmed the area. 129 hostages killed from the gas the Russian troops used to take out the Chechen rebels.

So, today, I would hope the Russians have learned something from those two incedents at least.

I suspect this incident will be over by Friday or the weekend at the latest. If Putin and his commanders know anything about terrorists, it's that when you start negotiating, they dig in and it's tougher to get them out. You have to strike back immediately when the terrorists are still unorganized. Every hour that goes by, the upper-hand is with the hostage takers.

Mutley Hyde,

That too. Add I just forgot about Iran and their increase in nuclear. Read something across the wire about something new discovered but lost the link. Damn it. Anyway, we have IDF saying: "Those responsible for attacks won't sleep soundly." So, we know something is going to be planned in 24-48hrs. And probably another large attack on Israel buses and markets come Friday.

Originally posted by Matt Millheiser
I'm all for the "terrorist kills our children, we kill terrorist's entire family" argument.

They're more than ready and willing to die for Allah, but are they willing to sacrifice their son? Daughter? Mom? Grandmother? Uncle Moishe?

This is extreme. But I think it's a language they'll easily understand.

Short term solution.

It'd only be a matter of time for the cancer to adapt to the new tactic to the point that it would have no effect at all.

Bottom line is don't underestimate the desperation of terrorists and never become desperate as them.

On topic, this is a terrible story. :(

If they never get what they want, wont they stop taking hostages?

Originally posted by Save Ferris
If they never get what they want, wont they stop taking hostages? Define "never"

They got world-wide publicity. In the "old Russia" you wouldn't have even heard about this a few hundred miles outside of the town where the hostages were being held.

This is the age of the terrorist. News travels all over the world in seconds, and they can send their message loud and clear.

The hostage takers have refused the offer of food and water for the hostages.

Meanwhile, President Bush has spoken with President Putin, and according to the Kremlin, offered whatever support Russia might need to end the standoff.

Originally posted by covenant
WWSD?

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/stalin1.jpg

I'm sure he would drive half the Russian army across Chechnya destroying and killing everything in it's path. Then rounding up all the male's left and taking them to Siberia. Not a good solution of course. Putin doesn't have the sack that Stalin did.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
They got world-wide publicity. In the "old Russia" you wouldn't have even heard about this a few hundred miles outside of the town where the hostages were being held.

This is the age of the terrorist. News travels all over the world in seconds, and they can send their message loud and clear.


This assumes that publicity is sought. I am far from convinced that it is.



BTW, I am honestly curious as to why you feel there is increased chatter? I have been seeing the opposite, that aside from greatly increased web traffic by the Islamists, chatter has been incredibly low for the past month or so.

war of annihilation is inevitable

Reason for high chatter:

1) Pull-out from Gaza. There are many "management" conflicts going on right now behind the scenes with many groups who want control of the area when Israel pulls out.

This is just one of the reasons. Another is 9/11 approaching.

Well, the Russians can't really use gas this time because of all the kids. I believe last time, the gas affected the elderly and children more than normal adults because they can't handle it.

This whole situation is going to land up bad. Were is the KGB? I mean those guys used to be bad-asses right?

Many former KGB are in the Russian Mafia now, in various cities across the world, many of which are in the US having a nice retirement.

These terrorists need to be made an example of. Public beheadings and crude disposal of the bodies (i.e., fed to pigs).

Originally posted by chanster
Well, the Russians can't really use gas this time because of all the kids. I believe last time, the gas affected the elderly and children more than normal adults because they can't handle it.

This whole situation is going to land up bad. Were is the KGB? I mean those guys used to be bad-asses right?



Most of the KGB still are employed by the FSB, and Putin's secret details. The problem with that is that they were never bad-asses nor were they ever completely competent. Much of their ballyhooed existence is a myth.



DVD Polizei,

I still don't see the increased chatter. In fact, some analysts have even commented on the lack of chatter as we approach 9/11. It is believed that much has to do with the recent captures in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Egypt.

Originally posted by Pharoh
BTW, I am honestly curious as to why you feel there is increased chatter? I have been seeing the opposite, that aside from greatly increased web traffic by the Islamists, chatter has been incredibly low for the past month or so.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Do you have immediate access to the CIA wire taps and field reports or something?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Do you have immediate access to the CIA wire taps and field reports or something?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:


No, but I believe that the professional private intelligence services do, or at least have contacts that do. I am merely commenting on what they, along with various Islamic analysts, have reported. Frankly, I didn't think the lack of chatter recently was anything newsworthy or a surprise to anybody.

Besides, there are websites out there, mostly Islamist ones, from where folks can gleam the information.

Oh. -ptth-

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
Oh. -ptth-


;)


Of course, they could all be wrong. It has happened.

I can't believe there haven't been more updates on this story throughout the day.

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I can't believe there haven't been more updates on this story throughout the day.



There really haven't been that many. I don't think the Russians know what to do yet.

One of the leading Chechen Muftis did release the following a bit earlier:

Chechen Mufti Akhmed-Haji Shamayev has condemned the terrorists who seized a school in the North Ossetian town of Beslan. "These are people without faith, they are not Muslims," he declared. According to him, Chechen Muslims are ready to render any assistance needed to release the hostages.

In some other news, I have now seen two somewhat conflicting reports as to who is responsible for the kidnappings. One purports that the Islambouli Brigades has taken responsibility. This is the same group that has taken credit for the downing of the two airliners. There is also some more information out there about this group, though nothing solid at this point.

The second report has the Riyahd as-Salikhin behind the attacks. They are a Chechen Wahhabi group who take orders from the Chechen Islamist warlord/murderer, Basayev. He is directly linked, by the way, to al queda.

I lean more to the second scenario myself.

And in some tangental news:

A group of passengers and flight crew aboard a plane bound for Russia from Egypt refused to take off until two women, believed to be Chechen, were taken off the plane. The two Chechen women were added to the manifest at the last moment and were accompanied onto the plane by Egyptian officials. According to witnesses, the women immediately both went to the restrooms and locked the doors. It was then that the passengers, mostly all Russian tourists heading home, demanded their removal.

Messed up world indeed.

Originally posted by Pharoh
The hostage takers have refused the offer of food and water for the hostages.

And they just said on CNN that the hostage takers were primarily women. This is bad news in light of what I read ealier today about the growing trend of 'black widow' suicide bombers, whose terrorist husbands or other terrorist male family members have been killed by the infidels.

I personally don't think the hostage takers have it in mind to live through this.

Originally posted by Pharoh
And in some tangental news:

A group of passengers and flight crew aboard a plane bound for Russia from Egypt refused to take off until two women, believed to be Chechen, were taken off the plane. The two Chechen women were added to the manifest at the last moment and were accompanied onto the plane by Egyptian officials. According to witnesses, the women immediately both went to the restrooms and locked the doors. It was then that the passengers, mostly all Russian tourists heading home, demanded their removal.

Messed up world indeed.

Racism!

Pharoh,

Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.

There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.

And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.

Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.

Good point Polizei. It's also interesting that the past two ground events have taken place outside of Chechnya, in Ingushetia. I think that these a-holes are trying to widen the conflict and that to me does not smack of "liberation" of Chechnya. Polizei, you mentioned that you think the Russian commandos should act quickly. What do you think they should do? I'm guessing, just storm the place and hope to save some of the hostages because as you said, waiting almost insures that ALL of the hostages will be killed. This may be the only way to deal with this shit. You have to plan for "acceptable losses." Bringing the death toll of your people from 100% to even 75% is better than the alternative.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Pharoh,

Who are the guys being held in Ingushetia jails? I need to check on that.

There was an attack on June 22 in Ingushetia and killing 40 or some police officers and many other civilians. But then, the attackers just disappeared. Putin made a big statement about finding those responsible at the time. I suspect the ones from the school are from the same group who conducted the attacks June 22nd.

And not to take the easy route, but I think we have a few groups involved in this. It could both of those groups you mentioned, plus outside foreign fighters. Shamil Bassayev (as-Salikhin) and Aslan Maskhadov are probably involved, however, I suspect whoever was behind the June 22 attack is responsible for this one.

Apparently, there are mines placed around the perimeter of the school, as well as explosives placed throughout the school. Also, many of the hostages are diabetic.


It is almost universally believed that Islamic Chechen separatists loyal to Basayev were responsible, with some Saudi based Wahhabiists aiding, and perhaps even leading the assault.

One of the main culptits fingered for the attacks was Saudi wahhabiist Abu Kuteiba. Kuteiba was killed in a firefight on July 2nd as Russian security forces attempted to arrest him. He was said to then be the chief pipeline between Chechen Islamists, led by Basayev, Saudi Arabia, and al queda. He was a very close comrade of slain Saudi Abu Walid and Khattab, a Jordanian, both of whom were killed by Russian forces in Chechnya. Their deaths had been a rallying point for the Chechen Islamists.

There is also a video floating around showing what is believed to be Basayev leading an attack against the Russian Ingushetia arms depot. He was clearly centrally involved.

I think, in fact I am certain, that those June attacks were carried out by homegrown Chechen Islamists and by external wahhabiists, mostly Saudi in nature. I too agree that the same people are likely responsible for this latest atrocity, of which there is some news. However, I do not think the first group I referenced is responsible, nor am I even convinced of their existence, despite reports of their ties to zawahiri. And I will post in a moment a chilling find, chilling to me at least.

The scum have reportedly dropped a note out of a window listing their "demands." It is the usual, the removal of all Russian forces from Chechnya and Ingushetia. They have claimed they will only negotiate with the Presidents of Ingushetia and North Ossetia, as well as with Leonid Roshal, whom I posted about before. There is still no official word on how many hostages there are, but the best estimates put the count at 300.

I am truly sickened over this.

I think it's going to end like other terrorist incidents in the area. Bloody, and no one will really win any amount political desires.

For the chilling information.

Russian intelligence learned on August 27th that Chechen Islamists and followers of Basayev were planning suicide bombings throughout Russia, specifically in Moscow, to take place prior to Sunday's elections. Further, they learned that larger scale attacks were going to take place, including guerrilla attacks in Grozny and the outlying regions, areas such as North Ossetia. They knew these things were going to happen, and they could nothing about them! Well, at least they "beefed" up security around their nuclear plants. Don't you all feel safer?

These plans were discussed in Chechnya between Basayev and al queda representatives. They indeed, as Vin pointed out, want to expand the war. Russia can do nothing.




Personal thought:

It is a very sad notion that Russia is a paper tiger, for the drums of war are beating loudly and strongly in Russia, louder than at any time since Afghanistan. Many in Moscow want to hit the terrorists where they live, they want to do as America did in Afghanistan and Iraq, change the dynamics, redefine the battlefield. I just wish they could, but I don't think they can. :(

It is also interesting to note what many Russian analysts and military personnel are saying as to who may be complicit in the attacks. Many are claiming that the terrorists could only have done these things with assistance from the West, and they aren't talking about America. I am sure it is just bluster, but bluster that I think is going to grow and fester. Not good, not good at all.

VinVega,

Well, it's a no-win. We have children being used as human shields on the windows of the building to prevent snipers from getting any kind of view or shot. Diabetics who need insulin and food, but who are being denied it currently.

It's a tough call. In this case, we are not dealing with a typical hostage taker who wants to get out alive. These are Muslim extremists who think nothing of blowing themselves up.

I'd have to say I would negotiate the release of prisoners, and try and save as many children and parents as I could. After following the terrorists where ever they would go, I would make an example out of them. These prisoners are worthless scum and I would rather save 1 child than 100 prisoners.

The primary goals are:

1) Save as many hostages as possible

2) Make an example out of these hostage takers so the chances of this happening again will be very small

Possible Solutions:

1) Blow up the school (obviously won't happen but sure as hell would stop any future hostage taking from happening)

2) Storm the school and rescue as many as possible (probably not as effective as normal hostage taking crisis because these people are suicide bombers as well and this scenario would play out in another school)

3) Temporarily give-in to the demands of the terrorists and get them as they run for shelter across the borders (here you are saving lives and still being adamant on killing those responsible)

I think Russia could save as many hostages as possible by negotiating the release of prisoners, and then fighting back however necessary and by whatever means possible.

I am expecting the same situation as happened in January 1996, when most hostages were released when demands were met but tooks some hostages across the border into Chechnya which is where Russian forces fought back and of course, hostages were killed.

Just wanted to clarify one of my earlier posts. Those who committed the June attacks in Ingushetia, namely Basayev loyalists and some Saudi wahhabiists, were largely the ones imprisoned.

Damn! There are infants under 1 years old amongst the hostages. They were there as many parents took them on their siblings first day of school.


I try to remain detached in my posts, but I am having a difficult time here. It is time that Russia, England, China, and America show these fucks what the world is about.

:mad:

This crisis in the school is only going to get worse as time goes on. This is terrible. Poor kids - like I said earlier: these ********ers don't deserve a quick death. They deserve to die slowly and rather painfully.

Well, in a small bit of good news, Mayak radio is reporting that the terrorists have agreed to accept food and water from the outside.

Originally posted by Pharoh
Well, in a small bit of good news, Mayak radio is reporting that the terrorists have agreed to accept food and water from the outside.
Yeah, probably for themselves.

Originally posted by Breakfast with Girls
Yeah, probably for themselves.

:lol: really...

Let me get this straight....these are Muslim terrorists?

For being such an extreme and small smart of Islam that does this kind of thing, it sure seems to happen pretty often. But I am sure most Muslims will condemn this. A poll of Palestinians would be interesting.


When was the last suicide bomber? I wonder how the wall is really doing for all the crying around the world about it. (seriously, I wonder. That is not a sarcastic rhetorical question)

This does not look good. And it looks like, at least on the surface, that the authorities are sticking to negotiations. -ohbfrank-

Explosions Rock School at Center of Hostage Standoff in Southern Russia, Smoke Rises (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB0R51UMYD.html)
BESLAN, Russia (AP) - Two explosions rocked the area around a school where heavily armed militants, some strapped with bombs, were holed up for a second day Thursday with about 350 hostages including many children in southern Russia.

The explosions came about 10 minutes apart, from the vicinity of the school, followed by a cloud of black smoke. No further details were available and it was impossible to see exactly what happened because police had cordoned off the area.

The cause of the explosions was not clear. The militants who stormed the school Wednesday had threatened to blow it up if Russian forces launched an assault to free the hostages - but there was no sign that any operation or battle was underway.

Earlier on Thursday, Valery Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, seemed to rule out the immediate use of force.

"There is no alternative to dialogue," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted him as saying. "One should expect long and tense negotiations."

Russian officials had negotiated fruitlessly through the night to end the standoff. Crowds of distraught relatives and townspeople waited helplessly for news of their loved ones, and before the blasts, gunfire occasionally rattled from the area.

Earlier Thursday, in his first public comment on the raid, President Vladimir Putin pledged to do everything possible to save the lives of the hundreds of hostages.

"We understand these acts are not only against private citizens of Russia but against Russia as a whole," Putin said in comments broadcast on Russian television during a Kremlin meeting with Jordan King Abdullah II. "What is happening in North Ossetia is horrible."

"It's horrible not only because some of the hostages are children but because this action can explode even a fragile balance of interconfessional and international relations in the region."

The school in Beslan, a town of about 30,000, is in North Ossetia, near the republic of Chechnya where separatist rebels have been fighting Russian forces since 1999. Suspicion in the raid fell on Chechen militants although no claim of responsibility has been made.

The raid came a day after a suspected Chechen suicide bomber blew herself up outside a Moscow subway station, killing nine people, and just over a week after 90 people died in two plane crashes that are suspected to have been blown up by suicide bombers also linked to Chechnya.

The recent bloodshed is a blow to Putin, who pledged five years ago to crush Chechnya's rebels but instead has seen the insurgents increasingly strike civilian targets beyond the republic's borders.

Heavily armed militants wearing masks descended on Middle School No. 1 shortly after 9 a.m. on the opening day of the new school year Wednesday. About a dozen people managed to escape by hiding in a boiler room, but hundreds of others were herded into the school gymnasium and some were placed at windows as human shields.

Little was known about food and sanitary condition inside the school; offers to deliver food and water to the school were turned down.

Camouflage-clad special forces troops carrying assault rifles encircled the school, while the militants placed a sniper on an upper floor of the three-story building. More than 1,000 people, including many parents, crowded outside police cordons demanding information and accusing the government of failing to protect their children.

Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, said on NTV television that elders from Chechnya and Ingushetia had offered to come to the school and act as stand-in hostages so that women and children could be released. He also said that some of the militants had been identified, and investigators were attempting to find their relatives and bring them to the school to help in the negotiations. Two Arab television stations had also offered to negotiate, Andreyev said.

"Negotiations are continuing," he said.

From inside the school, the militants sent out a list of demands and threatened that if police intervened, they would kill 50 children for every hostage-taker killed and 20 children for every hostage-taker injured, Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the North Ossetia region's Interior Ministry, was quoted as telling the ITAR-Tass news agency. An aide to the North Ossetian president, Lev Dzugayev, estimated there were between 15 and 24 militants.

How the police could end the standoff without a storming the building was unclear. The Moscow theater hostage-taking ended after an unidentified knockout gas was pumped into the building, but the gas was responsible for almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

Gennady Gudkov, a retired Federal Security Service colonel and a member of the Russian parliament's defense committee, said there is little chance that authorities will resort to a knockout gas this time - particularly since medical experts said it tended to have a stronger effect on children.

"I don't think that in this case anyone would have the courage to use gas or any other means," he was quoted as telling Russia's Gazeta.ru Web site.

Casualty reports in the raid varied widely, but an official in the joint-command operation for the crisis said on condition of anonymity early Thursday that 16 people were killed - 12 inside the school, two who died in hospital and two others whose bodies still lay outside the school and could not be removed because of gunfire. Thirteen others were wounded.

However, Dzugayev said that seven were killed. He also gave the number of hostages at 354. The children were mostly under 14.

Negotiations via phone continued on-and-off throughout the night and early morning, involving well-known pediatrician Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater by Chechens in 2002. The hostage-takers had demanded his participation. Russia's NTV television reported that Roshal had told the militants they would be promised a safe corridor out, but the request was refused.

Dzugayev said Thursday morning that so far the talks have not achieved anything.

After an emergency session called for by Russia, the United Nations Security Council on Wednesday condemned "the heinous terrorist act" and demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

A representative of Aslan Mashkhadov, a separatist leader who was Chechnya's president during three years of de-facto independence that ended in 1999, denied Chechen involvement in a statement published on a separatist Web site.

:(

Polizei, how do you make an example out of people who are not afraid to die? I understand what you are saying, but chopping these bastards into little pieces won't deter their comrades back in Chechnya and Saudi Arabia. The other problem is, if you just accept that those kids are all dead anyway and bomb the building, then the terrorists win. If you give in to the terrorists' demands, the terrorists win. If the terrorists kill all the hostages, the terrorists win. The only way we can win is to kill or capture the terrorists and not lose the hostages. Not fair.

It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.

Originally posted by VinVega
Polizei, how do you make an example out of people who are not afraid to die? I understand what you are saying, but chopping these bastards into little pieces won't deter their comrades back in Chechnya and Saudi Arabia. The other problem is, if you just accept that those kids are all dead anyway and bomb the building, then the terrorists win. If you give in to the terrorists' demands, the terrorists win. If the terrorists kill all the hostages, the terrorists win. The only way we can win is to kill or capture the terrorists and not lose the hostages. Not fair.

It's a real problem with a Western value system vs. a subhuman value system that most of these psychos have. Human life means nothing to these people, so what is the West to do? My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together.


For well over a year, the exact opposite has been happening. Largely under the radar of mainstream media and American perception, the countries have been moving further and further apart, perhaps as far apart as anytime since the end of the Cold War. I too hope that this can change, that a common enemy can be engaged and eradicated.

Your depiction of the battle, the limitations imposed not only by Western value system, but also a value system imposed by being an established nation participating in global affairs, is precisely and exactly why the battlefield needs to change. The dynamics and parameters drastically need to be altered. The fight must be taken to them. It is imperative for the continued safety of the free world.

I don't think the explosions were much of anything at this point, but I can't find out a great deal about them.

And in another small bit of good news, from about ten minutes ago:

BESLAN. Sept 2 (Interfax) - Hostage-takers have released three women with infants from the school in Beslan, an official representative of the hostage-release headquarters told Interfax.

Originally posted by Pharoh
Your depiction of the battle, the limitations imposed not only by Western value system, but also a value system imposed by being an established nation participating in global affairs, is precisely and exactly why the battlefield needs to change. The dynamics and parameters drastically need to be altered. The fight must be taken to them. It is imperative for the continued safety of the free world.
What do you mean by this? This a very broad statement.

Yeah Pharoh, the info on the explosions is very sketchy, I agree.

That's damn good to hear about the release, but I'm still not too hopeful of the situation.

They could always remove Russian forces from Chechnya and Ingushetia - and then drop a couple of nukes.


No, I'm not serious, but I'm sure there are some who might consider this as a serious alternative.

Why is it that when the US Soldiers go after their enemies, who use innocent civilians as human shields and there's unfortunate collateral damage, the US is nothing but war criminals and GW Bush is worse than Hitler; but when these sick fucks intentially put innocent children in harm's way, you don't hear a peep?

Originally posted by VinVega
What do you mean by this? This a very broad statement.


Purposefully broad so as to not detract or derail this important thread. A full discussion on what I meant, and I think you are reading into it correctly, is truly better suited for some other place and time. Basically though, the battle had better soon be taken to the enemy, rather than letting them take it to us, with us being the advanced World.

Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
Yeah Pharoh, the info on the explosions is very sketchy, I agree.

That's damn good to hear about the release, but I'm still not too hopeful of the situation.


Nor am I. :(

But the number of women and children freed is now up to twenty-six.

VinVega,

What needs to happen is a quick death, followed by going back to a normal routine of daily life. In other words, when a terrorist or group of terrorists are caught and captured, you immediately take them to a wall, shoot them point-blank in the forehead, and just leave them there to rought for several months. In the meantime, you make no official statements about what you did, nothing. You just go back to fighting terrorism. When journalists ask what happened, you simply say "they are gone". When asked specifically where, you reply, "they are gone", open a gum wrapper, and stick a piece of gum in your mouth and ask what the next question is.

Terrorism needs to be de-mythified and de-herofied. The more the media around the world report about it, the more terrorism is a myth and becomes an act that others want to achieve and be praised for. The more the US makes laws around it and makes symbolic ways of fighting it (a la Terrorism Temperature Gauge), terrorism will be stronger.

Originally posted by VinVega
My one sincere hope is that this can bring Russia and the US closer together. :up: Considering that relations between the U.S. and Russia have gotten worse over the last couple of years, this would be most welcome.

In related news:

Russian security forces have declared a public search for two women believed to be planning another suicide bombing.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
VinVega,

In other words, when a terrorist or group of terrorists are caught and captured, you immediately take them to a wall, shoot them point-blank in the forehead, and just leave them there to rought for several months.

Before or after a trial and conviction? If no trial, who gets to determine they are terrorists? Sounds like you'd love it in North Korea.

Don't know if it's been posted before, but one reasons for the gunshots heard on the first day was due to the terrorists allegedly executing 15 men whom they had rounded up previously.

And the number of released hostages is up to thirty one.

The identities of at least seven of the terrorists have been ascertained by the FSB, though they haven't released them to the public. They are said to be from Ingushetia, Russia, Chechnya, and North Ossetia. There are also Arabs among the terrorists. All are believed to be associated with the IIPB, which was founded by Basayev. An Arab named Abu Dzet is said to be the leader of the group. I have no other information on Dzet presently. It sure looks like al queda has morphed once again.


In the believe it or not category, Maskhadov has publicly denied any involvement with this action.

Russian security officials are coming to the realisation that the captors inside the school are not calling any of the shots, therefore negotiations with them will likely prove fruitless. They have been unable to reach the truly responsible parties, such as Basayev and a few of his Saudi friends. The financing of the operation is thought to have come from Saudi Arabia itself, amongst other places.

RevLiver,

Shame on you for assuming I'd love to go to North Korea without a trial to determine whether I wanted to or not. Looks like you and I could elope to North Korea. :eyebrow:

Pharoh,

Apparently the explosions heard just before some of the hostages released were due to a few vehicles being parked too close to the school and were fired upon.

But I do have a concern. If the hostage takers realize when their peers are released from prison and they leave the school that they will certainly be killed, what's to say these guys (and gals) won't blow themselves up with all the hostages in the school after the prisoners are freed.

If it's true the captors are not calling the shots, communication must be jammed. They do have radio jammers.

Because of the possibility of the terrorists committing a mass suicide attempt, I think it would probably be wise to factor in a seige attempt. This hostage situation will probably end by this weekend.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei

Pharoh,

Apparently the explosions heard just before some of the hostages released were due to a few vehicles being parked too close to the school and were fired upon.

But I do have a concern. If the hostage takers realize when their peers are released from prison and they leave the school that they will certainly be killed, what's to say these guys (and gals) won't blow themselves up with all the hostages in the school after the prisoners are freed.

If it's true the captors are not calling the shots, communication must be jammed. They do have radio jammers.

Because of the possibility of the terrorists committing a mass suicide attempt, I think it would probably be wise to factor in a seige attempt. This hostage situation will probably end by this weekend.


Honestly, who knows what the Russians have. I would like to think they have jammers, but then I read about the guy who was two building away, sending and receiving radio signals. He was eventually caught, with the transmitter in his hand, trying to escape, but still.

I agree with you on the possibility of a siege. It might have to come to that.

Why aren't we attacking Saudi Arabia, if we are in a "war on terror"? Seems like they are the center of it all.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps because the Saudis are working with us? Why not attack Pakistan if you're gung ho for SA? I mean, Pakistan has a history of having militant Islamicists too... nevermind that the government is working with us to quell their effectiveness, let's go bomb 'em!!

The thread's about Russia anyway - instead of asking why the US isn't going after SA, it would be more relevant, here anyway, to ask why Russia doesn't go after SA.

Feh.

Originally posted by Chrisedge
Why aren't we attacking Saudi Arabia, if we are in a "war on terror"? Seems like they are the center of it all.

The Saudis involved tend to be Wahabiists, and the government is not Wahabi.

The terrorists holed up inside the Beslan school have now twice fired grenade launchers at the Russian forces surrounding them. No casualties have been reported.

Originally posted by Pharoh
The terrorists holed up inside the Beslan school have now twice fired grenade launchers at the Russian forces surrounding them. No casualties have been reported.


Upon reflection, I think this must be the two explosions reported earlier, the cars fired upon.

Wonder how much food and actual weaponry the terrorist have

very sucky situation

Wow, one report says there are 1500 people in the school.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=agsrUu3o3WSA&refer=top_world_news

300, 1000, 1500???????

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/index.html

Although authorities have said the number of hostages is around 350, relatives have told CNN's Chilcote that as many as 1,000 people may be trapped inside.

This is total BS. :)

Btw, a list of all the hostages will be released today.

I found out the terrorists removed their masks (several terrorists were then identified).

I think they may not try to leave the school. I was wondering about this earlier as this scenario has played out many times before and I think they know they are not going to just leave without any reprisal. Any rebel in the area knows the history of Russian forces dealing with hostage crisis situations.

I am beginning to think they might detonate the entire area with the hostages and themselves. The reason for them removing their masks is so they can be identified now, because after they detonate themselves, there won't be a chance of identification.

Russia's Alfa Terrorist team better do something in the next 24hrs or less or it's going to be a total loss for the families I believe.

Blow up Medina and Mecca.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040903/ts_nm/russia_school_dc

Freed Russia Hostages Say 1,500 Held Captive

14 minutes ago

MOSCOW (Reuters) - An armed gang that stormed a school in southern Russia may be holding as many as 1,500 hostages, far above the official figure of 350, newspapers quoted freed hostages on Friday as saying.

The eyewitnesses, among 26 women and infants released on Thursday, also said the group of up to 40 captors was refusing to give hostages food and water. :(

"You know, there aren't 350 people in there, but 1,500 in all. People are lying one on top of another," Zalipa Dzandarova, a 27-year-old woman, told the Kommersant daily.


This is not looking good!

Chris

I'm still cautious on believing this. So this lady took a head count of everyone?

She's like rain woman.

^:)

One report in Russia says the terrorists told the soon-to-be-freed hostages if they talked to reporters, they would start killing the hostages.

Well, I think Zalina Dzandarova must've forgotten about that part.

This "1,500" number is now going across the net like a wildfire. It will be interesting if this is actually a valid number.

Another thought (although not likely) is maybe the terrorists told her to say this to inflate the numbers.

From Reuters:

"BESLAN, Russia (Reuters) - Hostages escaped from a besieged Russian school amid heavy gunfire, explosions and utter chaos on Friday.

A Reuters witness at the scene saw children covered in blood being brought by soldiers from the school in Beslan, North Ossetia. People were seen running, screaming and crying from the school and four helicopters were seen hovering nearby. "

----

Well, I think this beginning of the end.

yeah just saw it, they were shooting at the crowd outside, wounding a couple of people

The kids are in their friggin underwear for god's sake, i hope they aren't abusing the kids inside

gonna be a messy ending sadly regardless

Ok, I just translated something from www.gazeta.ru

Apparently, Russian forces have penetrated the first floor of what I think is the gymnasium.

They are hitting simultaneously from all sides.

Jesus, some of these children look emaciated and horrible.

foxnews is showing live coverage of it and giving pretty up-to-date info about the progress if you guys don't feel like translating russian websites.

this is crazy.

I hope no more innocents get hurt.

they are saying that the soldiers have control of the building now

cant believe there wouldn't have been any casualties

I knew I should have stayed up.


Apparently, this was not a planned siege. Russian forces were invited in, through negotiations with the terrorists, to remove the bodies of the dead. When the forces entered the building some militants tried to make a break for it, engaging in firefights with the Russian forces. Simultaneously, a small number of the hostages at this time ran out of the building. Confusion ensued, as some of the terrorists then changed into civilian clothes, trying to blend in with the fleeing hostages, and more Russian forces stormed into the school.

The school was lined with explosives, including the gym, where most of the hostages were being held, being filled with mines stuffed with screws and bolts. It was at the time of all of this action, peoples going in and out of the school, that the large explosions were heard, and that part of the roof collapsed. Upon this, the bulk of the Russian security forces moved in.

A small group of the terrorists actually then escaped the condon around the school and are believed to be holed up in a house near-by. It is not clear whether they have any hostages with them. The first group of militants that tried to blend in with the fleeing civilians are all believed to be captured.

All the hostages who were in the gym area, thought to be the bulk, have been evacuated. The remainder of the terrorists, those not already captured, killed, or holed up in the outside house, have moved to classrooms in the school, barricading themselves in against the security forces, and engaging them in battle.

A Russian special forces unit based in the northern Caucasuses is said to be engaging the terrorists who fled and who are occupying the nearby house. Tank blasts have been heard, as well as grenade launchers. North Ossetia and Russian military forces have blocked all escape routes out of Beslan in case any militants have gotten away unnoticed.



Looks like the terrorists lost their nerves, thankfully, and didn't want to blow themselves up. Also looks like most of the hostages will be okay, though much remains unanswered at this piont. Here is hoping for the best.

Except for an sporadic small-arms fire, the fighting at the school appears to be over. The militants who were holed up in the classrooms have either somehow escaped, or more likely, have been eliminated. However, all of the militants are not accounted for.

Unfortunately, witnesses at the scene report at least five small children are dead. :( :mad:

A fire has broken out in one of the school buildings, encompassing some local houses as well.

Thanks for the report, Pharoh, that's more than anything I could find through Drudge at the moment.

The school was lined with explosives, including the gym, where most of the hostages were being held, being filled with mines stuffed with screws and bolts.
And people question why some of us take a hard line on these motherfuckers. Anyway, glad to see the situation come to a seemingly somewhat positive outcome. A handful of dead children (each one of whom means the world to their families), a few scattered militants, perhaps gone to the four winds never to receive justice, and some damage to the school... if that's the extent of it, that's actually pretty damned good, considering the potential the situation originally held. :up:

I just heard a report on the news (unconfirmed) of 150 dead, 300+ injured. :(

Report also said that all hell broke loose after a vehicle exploded on a mine. Apparently, 13 militants have managed to escape.

150 dead is not so good, but then again, we still don't know how many total were in there. It's a shame that anyone had to die, but it's a blessing that they all didn't have to.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0409/gallery.school.russia/gallery.russ3.ap.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0409/gallery.school.russia/gallery.russ14.ap.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0409/gallery.school.russia/gallery.russ6.ap.jpg

I want to kill someone right now. This is on the level of 9-11 in depravity and unbelievable inhumanity. WTF is wrong with this world?

Originally posted by Hiro11
I want to kill someone right now. This is on the level of 9-11 in depravity and unbelievable inhumanity. WTF is wrong with this world? [/B]

Radical Islamicism? Just a guess.

Originally posted by Hiro11
I want to kill someone right now. This is on the level of 9-11 in depravity and unbelievable inhumanity. WTF is wrong with this world?

Part of the answer is in your first sentence.

Originally posted by eXcentris
Part of the answer is in your first sentence. ...but I'm not taking over schools full of children. See the difference? The 'ol thought vs. action conundrum.

Originally posted by Hiro11
...but I'm not taking over schools full of children. See the difference? The 'ol thought vs. action conundrum.

I realize that but there is still truth in that statement. Ask yourself why a lot of Chechen terrorists are women and why they volunteer for the job. Father dead, husband dead, son dead, not to mention the fair probability that they have questioned, abused and raped. So they probably started by saying "I so feel like killing someone right now". There's more to that mindset then simply religious fundamentalism.

Originally posted by eXcentris
Part of the answer is in your first sentence.

Just like a Canadian... the retaliatory gets the call. ;)

Originally posted by eXcentris
I realize that but there is still truth in that statement. Ask yourself why a lot of Chechen terrorists are women and why they volunteer for the job. Father dead, husband dead, son dead, not to mention the fair probability that they have questioned, abused and raped. So they probably started by saying "I so feel like killing someone right now". There's more to that mindset then simply religious fundamentalism.


But considering that most of these militants weren't Chechen, I don't know if that hold much water. These were fundamentalist Islamists in all their "glory."

There are conflicting reports now about whether any terrorists remain in the school building. One report states there are no scum left in the school, while another reports says five remain holed up in the classroom area, where they are providing cover fire for their sick comrades as they attempt to flee from the houses towards the Capial. Supposedly, the border with Ingushetia has been closed off. Not sure if any militants have fully escaped yet.


I also haven't been able to verify the number of deaths, nor have I seen reports indicating anything about 150 dead. I have seen three reports stating the injured number is now up to at least 350 people, including many children. A small number of Russian special ops were killed during the storming, as well as one Russian rescue worker.

Originally posted by eXcentris
There's more to that mindset then simply religious fundamentalism. But that is the main part.

Originally posted by eXcentris
I realize that but there is still truth in that statement. Ask yourself why a lot of Chechen terrorists are women and why they volunteer for the job. Father dead, husband dead, son dead, not to mention the fair probability that they have questioned, abused and raped. So they probably started by saying "I so feel like killing someone right now". There's more to that mindset then simply religious fundamentalism. Don't get me wrong, Putin has been unbelievably rapacious in his treatment of Chechans. But let's stick to facts: you don't know who these people who took over the school are and I don't know who they are. I wouldn't ascribe motivations to people unless I was certain what they were. To be honest, I don't give a shit who they are and what motivates them, all I can do is judge their actions.

If you want to have civilization, there has to be some basic rules. One of these rules is you don't take over a school with 850 kids inside. If you do, you've lost your humanity and lost any possible respect I might have for your aims. I'm sick of people trying to say, in effect " look at this from the terrorist's perspective". Attacking innocents (or the euphamism "soft targets" that the spineless media has now latched onto) is never justified. At some point you have to call evil evil and be done with it. People want to believe that everyone has some kernal of goodness and redemption inside of them, and I'd like to believe that's true. But sometimes people do something so awful that I just don't care.

These people have reached that point for me. That doesn't mean I'm going to buy and Aeroflot ticket and a pistol and kill them. I just don't particularly care what happens to them.

Fuckin Savages...

Keep trying to justify their actions, go ahead. You seem to have a knack of continuing to justify actions on one side of the equation.

Originally posted by Hiro11
If you want to have civilization, there has to be some basic rules. One of these rules is you don't take over a school with 850 kids inside. If you do, you've lost your humanity and lost any possible respect I might have for your aims. I'm sick of people trying to say, in effect " look at this from the terrorist's perspective". Attacking innocents (or the euphamism "soft targets" that the spineless media has now latched onto) is never justified. At some point you have to call evil evil and be done with it. People want to believe that everyone has some kernal of goodness and redemption inside of them, and I'd like to believe that's true. But sometimes people do something so awful that I just don't care.

Well said. I would just that dead terrorists don't have perspectives.

Originally posted by Hiro11
If you do, you've lost your humanity and lost any possible respect I might have for your aims.
I'm sick of people trying to say, in effect " look at this from the terrorist's perspective". Attacking innocents (or the euphamism "soft targets" that the spineless media has now latched onto) is never justified.

I'm not trying to justify anything nor did I intend to single you out, I was merely trying to give you a (partial) answer to your question. Desperation often lead people to lose their humanity.

Pharoh, I was not specifically referring to the hostage situation in the school.

Originally posted by chanster
Keep trying to justify their actions, go ahead. You seem to have a knack of continuing to justify actions on one side of the equation.

Wtf is wrong with you people. Can't you make the difference between justification and understanding? Did you hear me say "it's ok for them to do this because they are desperate?" Give me a break...

Understanding killing school children? WTF is wrong with you!

Originally posted by chanster
Understanding killing school children? WTF is wrong with you!

Yes, understanding as in thinking. If you try to understand what led Hitler to kill millions of jews, does that mean you are trying to justify what he did? Your comments are completely idiotic.

The special envoy for the Italian newspaper La Repubblica says he's seen at least 200 dead bodies.

Originally posted by eXcentris
Wtf is wrong with you people. Can't you make the difference between justification and understanding?

You don't think we can understand the motives of the terrorists? Well surprise, we can, we just don't give it any credence. I can understand the technical aspects of the terrorists rationale all day long, but I don't think they're justified - I don't think they deserve even a modicum of respect - I don't think they should be defended in the least.

Yes, understanding as in thinking. If you try to understand what led Hitler to kill millions of jews, does that mean you are trying to justify what he did? Your comments are completely idiotic.

Great. Lets kill all of the terrorists, stamp out their bullshit and then try to understand them. You didn't need to understand Hitler back in the 1940s to say that his actions were evil and needed to be stopped.

Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
I don't think they should be defended in the least.

For the last time, understanding has absolutely nothing to do with justifying or defending anything.

Nice personal attacks!!!!

Originally posted by eXcentris
Did you hear me say "it's ok for them to do this because they are desperate?" Give me a break...

eX, it's painfully obvious where you place fault. You may not be advocating terrorism, and you may not be justifying terrorist acts, but whenever these things come up, you never attempt to 'understand' the attacked, and always try to point out the motives of the attackers. How the hell else are we supposed to interpret this??


"We were not attacked for what we did wrong - we were attacked for what we did right."

You go through all these threads with light condemnation of terrorists or trying to shift blame and then when challenged you go "of course I condemn them!" only after being challenged.

Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
eX, it's painfully obvious where you place fault. You may not be advocating terrorism, and you may not be justifying terrorist acts, but whenever these things come up, you never attempt to 'understand' the attacked, and always try to point out the motives of the attackers. How the hell else are we supposed to interpret this??


Hiro asked a question, I was merely trying to answer it. Next time, I'll make sure I check my brain out the door and simply say:"The are all scumbags, who cares why they do it, let's kill them all."

While we're at it we might as well get rid of all criminology departments in universities since according to chanster, we need to kill all the criminals before we start trying to understand their motives.

I understand the point eX is making. Whether I agree with or not is irrelevant. I do not believe he is in any way an apologist for terrorists and their actions. Further, can we please drop this silly sideline? This is too tragic and important of an event to bicker like this now.

Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
You don't think we can understand the motives of the terrorists? Well surprise, we can, we just don't give it any credence. I can understand the technical aspects of the terrorists rationale all day long, but I don't think they're justified - I don't think they deserve even a modicum of respect - I don't think they should be defended in the least.

very well said.
i don't know understanding Hitler will achieve anything. you had to send in soldiers to finish the job anyway.

Mod Note: All of you take a step back and calm down

settle down guys, settle down, there are no winners here

Originally posted by Pharoh
I understand the point eX is making. Whether I agree with or not is irrelevant. I do not believe he is in any way an apologist for terrorists and their actions. Further, can we please drop this silly sideline? This is too tragic and important of an event to bicker like this now.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Grubert
The special envoy for the Italian newspaper La Repubblica says he's seen at least 200 dead bodies.


Reports I am seeing are listing "dozens" of bodies still in the school. Many died when the roof collapsed. A precise count is impossible at this time. At least two hundred former hostages are alreadly hospitalised, with 100 of them being children. :(
An additional hundred or so others have also been taken for treatment.

A reports now claims that the bodies of 100 hostages have been found in the gym. No word yet as to the makeup of this group.

The scum got cut off, got scared, ran, the "great" Russian special forces weren't prepared, and this shit happened this way. Damn! This sucks! :mad:

Just keeps getting worse. :(:(

I hope they capture some of the terrorists alive.

Originally posted by Heat
I hope they capture some of the terrorists alive.


At least ten are already confirmed killed.

And for the families, I hope they don't. I do get your point however.

Off topic; Guys, sorry, but I've got to respond to eX here. After this, I'm more than happy to take it to email.

Originally posted by eXcentris
Hiro asked a question, I was merely trying to answer it. Next time, I'll make sure I check my brain out the door and simply say:"The are all scumbags, who cares why they do it, let's kill them all."

What's wrong with what I said? I agreed that your weren't advocating terrorism or justifying terrorist acts... what more do you want?

The thing is that I understand why the terrorists want to kill people, but I am unwilling to do anything to change their thought process, or to work with them, or to make