The article said the terrorists had put on civilian clothes.

Originally posted by retihsuhnt
When I first heard this story I knew that it would be a repeat of the theater massacre last year.

Russians just dont seem to be able to get hostage situations 'right'. Hell Americans cant either, but we dont get death tolls in the 100s.

retihsuhnt,

When is the last time a school in the US of over 400 people were taken hostage by militants with explosives on themselves and the school was mined and littered with explosives as well.

Please.

Do a history check before making such a statement so you can at least come within a few thousand yards of making a valid point.

US law enforcement couldn't do ANY better. And I suspect they would screw up the first few times when dealing with a situation like this anyway.

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

Well, I guess 9/11 was our fault to, but tell this to a parent who's child was killed.

Hell the Columbine police fucked up dealing with 2 wack ass teenagers with guns.

Originally posted by chanster
The article said the terrorists had put on civilian clothes.

Still, here in America in a hostage situation, the police treat all people as suspects until they can find out the truth. Everyone leaving the scene of the school should have been quarantined, until their innocence could be proven. Better to err on the cautious side, because as we can see, some of the escapees took more hostages. Just my thoughts.

Chris

i found this picture interesting..

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040903/lthumb.mosb13509031828.russia_school_seizure_mosb135.jpg

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I know. :(

Reading a story and seeing hundreds of actual photos or video gives you a totally different perspective.

Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed.

mrpayroll,

There was a perimeter, but some terrorists broke through. Russia's Alfa team deals with these situations just like US law enforcement do. They didn't let anyone out of the perimeter. However, do to the circumstances of everyone crying and screaming and running every which way to get away from the school, it is not too hard to imagine a few terrorists getting away. Not to mention the thousands of other people who are swarming to the scene--you don't want the Russian army to get into a confrontation by holding them back with force, with them in an already dire situation.

If it was me, there would be a double perimeter in cases like this because of a high population count. But even then, who knows.

The US gets most of their hostage training and intel from outside the US, because they've never dealt with these situations before. A lot of the training comes from Germany, Russia, and the UK.

And then when you talk about quarantine, we should remember the Hollywood Shootout, where local police couldn't contain two heavily-armed bank robbers. If you can't handle two people armed with assault rifles, try 30-40 terrorists with explosives training and no fear of death. They could wipe out a typical police force of a city of 750,000, and would most likely have the National Guard reservists running back home to their mothers.

Believe me, once something like this happens in the US, we will lose the first few times because the US is just not prepared for this kind of attack.

Originally posted by waveform
Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed. Be careful waveform. They'll say you have an agenda. Oooo.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
mrpayroll,

And then when you talk about quarantine, we should remember the Hollywood Shootout, where local police couldn't contain two heavily-armed bank robbers. If you can't handle two people armed with assault rifles, try 30-40 terrorists with explosives training and no fear of death. They could wipe out a typical police force of a city of 750,000, and would most likely have the National Guard reservists running back home to their mothers.

Believe me, once something like this happens in the US, we will lose the first few times because the US is just not prepared for this kind of attack.


You are probably right. I remember the North Hollywood shootout, because I had just started at Disney and we work about 5 miles away from there.

Chris

I just hope this crap can stop. It's just getting way out of hand. I hope Putin can spearhead some action.

P.S. I just read that a young Chechen woman in the town of Urus-Martan detonated herself in front of a military commandant, Gaidar Gadzhiyev. He's in serious condition, 1 soldier killed, 2 others wounded.

Originally posted by mrpayroll
Still, here in America in a hostage situation, the police treat all people as suspects until they can find out the truth. Everyone leaving the scene of the school should have been quarantined, until their innocence could be proven. Better to err on the cautious side, because as we can see, some of the escapees took more hostages. Just my thoughts.

Chris

Reminds me of the bleeding hearts crying when US operators busted into that hospital in Iraq with weapons trained and cuffed all those people when they rescued Jessica Lynch.

This is why you do those things. Take EVERYONE into custody until you sort everything out.

Originally posted by waveform
Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed.
Actually, I think seeing those coffins serves as a vivid reminder of the sacrifices brave soldiers are making to defend freedom both at home and abroad.

graphic pic
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/RUSSIA_SCHOOL_SEIZURE.sff_MOSB134_20040903142053.jpg

Originally posted by SomeVoices
Actually, I think seeing those coffins serves as a vivid reminder of the sacrifices brave soldiers are making to defend freedom both at home and abroad.


...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

[/B]

Our only fault is that we have such an [censored] in power, who fears a lot about mining international/ interconfessional relations and other bullshit when there are hundreds of peope dying being shot in the back. He has no [censored] idea about what's going on in his country. He assures that terrorism has no nationality. It sure has. It has nationality and religion. Political correctness has lead us to the situation when we are afraid of pointing a finger on the world map at the countries who are terrorists' accomplices, who give them shelter and assign money for them. Everybody knows where this shit comes from and who makes this shit hit the fan. But no, terrorism has no geographical location. It is just an omnipresent guy with a thick gun.
Putin seems to have lost control of "his" country. After such "tense" two weeks (two jets, two exploded bombs near bus and metro stations and now this bloody hostage taking), I think it is high time for him to demit. Off he goes.

Sorry but emotions are still very high.

Originally posted by waveform
...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Well, some of the families are opposed to the media turning their sacrifice into a media circus, too. But just screw them, right, they have no right to interfere with our seeing coffins.

Originally posted by OldDude
Well, some of the families are opposed to the media turning their sacrifice into a media circus, too. But just screw them, right, they have no right to interfere with our seeing coffins.

You'd be correct if they were publishing photos of individually marked and named coffins. But, that isn't what was happening.

What's happening is that the coffins get flown in and nobody gets to put out a photograph. Yes, the US admires its war dead...just not enough to acknowledge their arrival home.

So, just screw the families that have some pride in the sacrifice that their son/daughter/husband/wife made. After all, if the government can't supply 'em with enough bullets, why recognize them at all?

Originally posted by waveform
You'd be correct if they were publishing photos of individually marked and named coffins. But, that isn't what was happening.

What's happening is that the coffins get flown in and nobody gets to put out a photograph. Yes, the US admires its war dead...just not enough to acknowledge their arrival home.

So, just screw the families that have some pride in the sacrifice that their son/daughter/husband/wife made. After all, if the government can't supply 'em with enough bullets, why recognize them at all?

A reasonably balanced article on the history of it. (You might note it was maintained during the Clinton administration, and upheld by courts in 1996)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001909526_coffinside22m.html
Images of war dead a sensitive subject

By Ray Rivera
Seattle Times staff reporter

The image was of row upon row of flag-draped coffins being loaded onto an Air Force cargo plane in Kuwait. They were American war dead, killed in a bloody month of fighting in Iraq. David Perlmutter, a professor at Louisiana State University, showed it to his class and asked: Would you have published it, as The Seattle Times did on Sunday?

Of the hundred or so in the class, most said no. But when asked to explain, Perlmutter said, they said that while "they didn't want to see the pictures, they said it's probably good we know that it's happening."

Americans have long struggled with the morality of showing images of war dead, especially fellow Americans.

Tami Silicio, a civilian contract worker, was fired yesterday for taking the picture of coffins being loaded in Kuwait and allowing The Times to publish it.

The Pentagon has banned the media from taking pictures of military caskets returning from war since 1991, citing concern for the privacy of grieving families and friends of the dead soldiers. The Bush administration issued a stern reminder of that policy in March 2003, shortly before the war in Iraq began.

Critics complain that the prohibition is an attempt by the administration to diminish the impact of the loss of American lives.

But whether the ban is a political tactic or is out of sincere concern for the families, the issue is more complex, said Perlmutter, the author of two books on war photography and a professor of mass communication.

"The image of dead Americans, especially the dead American soldier, is probably the most powerful image of war for Americans," he said. "It's the one that immediately strikes us in the gut, because we hate to see it but we recognize we may need to see it."

The poet Oliver Wendell Holmes captured this ambivalence in 1863 after viewing some of the first images of battlefield casualties being buried during the Civil War.

"Let him who wishes to know what war is look at this series of illustrations," he wrote. Once they did, he said, "Many, having seen it and dreamed of its horrors, would lock it up in some secret drawer ... as we would have buried the mutilated remains of the dead they too vividly represented."

Military censors instituted a virtual blackout of such photos in World War I. That ban continued until nearly the end of World War II.

"The assumption was the public didn't want to see it, and that it would undermine the war effort," Perlmutter said. "The Normandy invasion was a success, but how would we have felt at the time if we had seen the pictures of all these dead American soldiers on the beaches?"

Images of war dead proliferated in Vietnam, and throughout the 1980s, the government regularly allowed the media to take pictures of coffins returning from Lebanon, Grenada and Panama to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the primary arrival point for returning American soldiers killed overseas.

But in 1991, as the United States embarked on its first major war since Vietnam, the policy shifted. In January of that year, the administration of the first President Bush began prohibiting media outlets from taking pictures of coffins being unloaded at Dover. It instituted a total ban in November of that year.

"There was an attempt to not have another Vietnam in the sense that the administration was not going to allow the media to sell the war, one way or the other," said John Louis Lucaites, a communications and culture professor at Indiana University who teaches a class called "Visualizing War."

In 1996, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C., upheld the ban after media outlets and some other organizations sued to have it lifted. Citing the need to reduce the hardship and protect the privacy of grieving families, the court held that the ban did not violate First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and of the press.

The National Military Family Association, one of the largest military-advocacy groups, supports the policy. "The families that we've heard from are more interested in their privacy and would hope that people would be sensitive to them in their time of loss," said Kathy Moakler, deputy director of government relations for the organization.

Moakler, who has two children in the military, said The Times was right to tell Silicio's story and to describe the respectful process by which the dead are transported home.

But the photograph, she said, was an invasion of privacy for families who might be wondering if their dead loved one was in that array of coffins.

But even among military families, such feelings are not universal.

Marianne Brown, the stepmother of an Army reservist serving in Baghdad, said Silicio's photograph was long overdue. The Michigan resident belongs to a group of military families who support the publication of photographs of coffins.

"We have to show that, because that's what we're paying for" in Iraq, said Brown, a 52-year-old artist living in South Haven, Mich. "Let's show the truth — the death of our kids. Otherwise it's just statistics."

Veteran Bill Egan of Flagler Beach, Fla., praised Silicio's photo. He was a military photographer aboard the USS Missouri in the 1980s as it escorted oil tankers through the Persian Gulf.

"I see nothing wrong with showing coffins, especially flag-draped coffins, because it's a reminder of what these people have given up," said Egan, 63.

Lucaites of Indiana University said the image had a powerful, mechanistic quality. "It almost makes it appear as if these coffins are on a conveyer belt, going off into infinity."

And if you're the current administration, he said, "this is not an image you want visualized."

Probably worth noting the Senate upheld the ban too, and even some Democrats supported the ban, so this is not quite as Geirge Bush vs everybody else as you paint it..
http://www.rcfp.org/news/2004/0622photog.html
Senate allows ban on photos of soldiers' caskets to stand
The Senate voted yesterday against legislation that would have required the Department of Defense to create new rules permitting photographers to cover the arrival and departure of caskets of military personnel killed abroad
June 22, 2004 -- The U.S. Senate voted 54-39 yesterday against legislation that would have instructed the Department of Defense to develop new rules permitting photographers on U.S. military bases to cover the arrival and departure of caskets containing the remains of soldiers killed overseas.

The measure was proposed by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) as an amendment to a $447.2 billion Pentagon spending bill for 2005. It was modified to allow the families of the fallen soldiers to decide whether they wanted media present. Republican Senators Olympia Snowe of Maine and John McCain of Arizona voted in favor of the bill, while seven Democrats joined 47 Republicans in opposition.

If it takes a picture of a coffin to remind you that people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan then you are a bit out of touch.

Originally posted by Mopower
If it takes a picture of a coffin to remind you that people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan then you are a bit out of touch.

If it takes a ban on pictures that show what the domestic effects are, then you are hiding from reality.

Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice? Seems like no one had a problem when it was Tillman, and he got killed by his own guys.

Should we just not recognize all the non-NFL soldiers? Oh, I forgot, his sacrifice was bigger because he was going to be making more money. The dead reservsts who just worked for a living...well they should be happy that Ted Koppel read out their names.

what do caskets of American soliders have to do with the children of North Ossetia?

Individual families are welcome to invite the press to the funeral. Hell, they can even open the casket and let them take photos of the wounds. But the bodies are flown back in groups and I think the preferences of the National Military Family Association should take precedence over the media vultures out for blood photos.

Originally posted by waveform
Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice?
Do you think these soldiers want their sacrifice "recognized" by parading their bodies around the streets or something?

Are you suggesting they aren't receiving their due military burials when they return home or something?

Remember that WWII veterans didn't even get a memorial until this past year.

And RoyalTea is right: "what do caskets of American soliders have to do with the children of North Ossetia?"

This isn't the place for this discussion. I apologize if I contributed to getting off-track.

Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
And what is wrong with 'cowboyism' (childish phrase, by the way)? The Russians could be accused of 'cowboyism' in that they gassed the theater, and in that they stormed the school. Why in the flying fuck is it okay for the Russians to do it and it is somehow despicable when the U.S. does it?

That's complete bullshit.

I don't know about U.S. but there was absolutely no so called cowboyism in the assault of the Russian special forces. Adults and children smashed windows and ran from the school after an unexpected bomb explosion (they say a lot of things: one of the bombs attached to the ceiling fell down and got detonated/ there was some split between the terrorists: some of them wanted to stay, others wanted to flee ...) and terrorists opened fire on them shooting in their backs indiscriminately. Return fire was opened by the Russian troops, thus, determining their further actions. Who knows what happened if the troops just let it be like it was? I'm still sure, though (and there are a lot of people who share the same opinion), Alfa should have launched the storm last night. But it is just another "what if".

animals
specifically targeting children is worse than barbaric

Continued coffin photo discussion here:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=383673

Let's take the high numbers

200 dead from 1500 hostages

There is no doubt that this was one of the most evil scenarios ever faced by soldiers but any competent Seal/Swat whatever team should be able to do better than those figures.

Originally posted by Original Desmond
but any competent Seal/Swat whatever team should be able to do better than those figures.
I don't know about that... conssidering that most of them probably died in the gym at once when the bombs went off and the roof collapsed.

This all went down at an unexpected moment. Neither the terrorists nor the Russians decided the timeframe on this one so there was no indication that more immediate action was necessary in the negotiation phase..

Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I don't know about that... considering that most of them probably died in the gym at once when the bombs went off and the roof collapsed. Yep. It's a horribe scenario, and there's no way (right now, at least) of knowing if any military or police group, however trained, would have been able to do better.

That said, there's going to be tons of finger pointing. And given the lead-up in past weeks, there'll be extreme pressure to react strongly, just as there would be here in the states, whether there's a logical or a *just* counter-move to be made or not.

I was so busy today, I did not have a chance to participate in this thread today. How sad that so many people lost their lives in this one. An OUTSTANDING job by the Russian forces to save as many people as they did. :up: Had they not taken military action, ALL of the hostages would be dead. We need to wake up and realize this.

Mutley, Polizei, Pharoh, great posts! I haven't read the whole thread yet, I got to about page 9.

Combining all of our countries' forces against these animals would be a wonderful thing. I doubt it would happen, but it's a nice dream.

How should Russia proceed in the future now? Don't go hardline on the Chechen civilian population. That is not productive, considering the influence for these type of attacks comes from outside Chechnya. Try to win over the civilian population with government aid if you can.

God, when I see crap like this, I just pray that we can get off our dependence on Mid East oil. It's our own dollars flowing over there that fund this shit. Dry up their money sources and you'll go a long way to cutting the terrorists' influence on the globe. I guess that's just another dream of mine. :(

Originally posted by VinVega
An OUTSTANDING job by the Russian forces to save as many people as they did. :up: I have to agree. Considering how many people we now know were in there, I would have predicted far more casualties, if not a total loss.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

Well, I guess 9/11 was our fault to, but tell this to a parent who's child was killed.

I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?

If I start a group that hates blue cars in Pittsburgh, and you have a blue car and we demand that you get a red car and you say no.. so we firebomb your house and kill your kids - well you know that's really your own fault.

Such bizarre backwards thinking in my mind. What am I missing? Or did I misunderstand?

Originally posted by General Zod
I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?

If I start a group that hates blue cars in Pittsburg, and you have a red car and we demand that you get a red car and you say no.. so we firebomb your house and kill your kids - well you know that's really your own fault.

Such bizarre backwards thinking in my mind. What am I missing? Or did I misunderstand?


It's only bizarre because they had a red car in the first place.

Oops I fixed it.. thanks Waveform :)

Originally posted by General Zod
I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?



Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?

Originally posted by General Zod
Oops I fixed it.. thanks Waveform :)

see. that's how wars get started.

the only thing worse than what these goatf*****s did is the apologists

Originally posted by mikehunt
the only thing worse than what these goatf*****s did is the apologists
Being an apologist for a horrible act is worse than actually carrying out that act? :hscratch:

The much larger point, Russia knew something large was about to happen! They knew about suicide bombings about to happen, three days before they did! They can't do anything!


I also have to agree with the few in here who feel that Russian forces did not do a great job here. Perhaps it is simple second guessing, but I feel many many more lives could have been spared. Frankly, this egregious and horrific loss of life is not acceptable.




Pelayu,

Where are you from, if you don't mind?

Originally posted by waveform
Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?
I'd be upset they want to take my gun away and I would protest it by writing to my gov. and all that - but would I take over a school and kill children?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could in any way even remotely justify that sort of activity, I don't care what the hell the reason is. I'm jewish. If I could go back in time to when my ancestors were getting killed in concetration camps would I take over a school and kill innocent german kids? Hell no. Would it be their parents fault if I did? Hell no. It would be my fault cause i'd be one seriously messed up person if I felt killing that little kid in the corner is justified.

Originally posted by waveform
Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?



Take this childish stupid bullshit somewhere else! Fuckin unbelievable!

Originally posted by Pharoh
[B]
I also have to agree with the few in here who feel that Russian forces did not do a great job here. Perhaps it is simple second guessing, but I feel many many more lives could have been spared. Frankly, this egregious and horrific loss of life is not acceptable./B]


Well, I'm sure the Russians will want to consult with you in future before they undertake any further anti-terrorist activity.

What are the acceptable loss of life guidelines these days?

Originally posted by General Zod
I'd be upset they want to take my gun away and I would protest it by writing to my gov. and all that - but would I take over a school and kill children?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could in any way even remotely justify that sort of activity, I don't care what the hell the reason is. I'm jewish. If I could go back in time to when my ancestors were getting killed in concetration camps would I take over a school and kill innocent german kids? Hell no. Would it be their parents fault if I did? Hell no. It would be my fault cause i'd be one seriously messed up person if I felt killing that little kid in the corner is justified.

But you have to realize that many of these people see themselves as having nothing to lose. Suicide bombers are not going to get hung up on the morality of killing other people. That is part of the nature of a terrorist attack. It is meant to be horrific. They are not seeking sympathy, they are making a statement and seeking retribution.

Sigh..... guess this incident was my reminder that the world can be a fucked up place.... :(

Do these 'people' really think they can better their cause through such actions ??

Actually terroristic activity is not always meant to be horrific. Back in the 80's, the point of terrorism was to make a point and then release the majority of people...i.e. Achille Lauro, TWA hijackings, etc, IRA etc.. It is meant to spread some terrror, but keep it in check. So you off a few hostages, release the rest, and get a cushy deal in another country.

Seems like in the last 10 years, terroristic activity has pretty much taken on the idea of mass casualties. Unfortunately, there is nothing after that step. Its pointless.
'
You would think that after 30 years of terrorism, they would get the idea that it won't work...

Originally posted by waveform
But you have to realize that many of these people see themselves as having nothing to lose. Suicide bombers are not going to get hung up on the morality of killing other people. That is part of the nature of a terrorist attack. It is meant to be horrific. They are not seeking sympathy, they are making a statement and seeking retribution.
I understand all that. So, if things are so bad for me that I become so depressed and full of hatred because of some stupid thing you did - it somehow becomes your fault if I decide to go crazy and start killing people? I still don't understand that part of it.

A few updates:


646 people, including 230 children, have been hospitalized. The number confirmed dead at this point still stands at 150. Sadly, that number is likely to considerably climb. Aslambek Aslakhanov, a senior Putin advisor, bluntly states the number killed could be far more than 150.

The Beslan school had an enrollment of 860 children according to reports. Since it was the first day of school and a great many parents and relatives were there, the high number of 1500 hostages total appears to be much closer to the truth than some of the earlier, smaller numbers.


The number of terrorists is believed now to be 40, give or take a couple. That number was quickly reduced by two, as two of the women terrorist blew themselves up, and some adult hostages with them, on Wednesday. Twenty-seven of the vile filth have now been confirmed killed, with eight killed on the school grounds, the others in the nearby area and towns. Ten of the dead are verified to be Arab. Only three are known to have been captured, as reported earlier.

The FSB is still maintaining that absolutely no military action was planned, as the whole situation just unraveled quickly. Doubts and anger in Russia and North Ossetia are begining to boil to the surface, much of it directed at President Putin. Meanwhile, Putin visited the Beslan hosptial early Saturday morning.

I was practically crying after I saw ABC News' report from Beslan earlier this evening. The images they showed were horrible and haunting. :(

Originally posted by VinVega
Combining all of our countries' forces against these animals would be a wonderful thing. I doubt it would happen, but it's a nice dream.

How should Russia proceed in the future now? Don't go hardline on the Chechen civilian population. That is not productive, considering the influence for these type of attacks comes from outside Chechnya. Try to win over the civilian population with government aid if you can.

God, when I see crap like this, I just pray that we can get off our dependence on Mid East oil. It's our own dollars flowing over there that fund this shit. Dry up their money sources and you'll go a long way to cutting the terrorists' influence on the globe. I guess that's just another dream of mine. :( I wholeheartedly agree w/ all three points, particularly the last one. :up:

Pharoh, you mentioned that the Russians are powerless to prevent such actions. Is this because of poor intelligence? What's the solution for the military and the FSB?

FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.

Originally posted by VinVega
Pharoh, you mentioned that the Russians are powerless to prevent such actions. Is this because of poor intelligence? What's the solution for the military and the FSB?


Many factors are responsible for me making that statement, including:

Poor intelligence due to the loss of many top in-the-field agents, a severely hampered and limited intelligence budget, and a basic complacency leading to a failure to ultimately adapt to the new threat faced, is a major contributor to their inability.

Lack of sufficient funding for the miltary in modernisation efforts, both in equipment and in training, is another significant component. The Russian military is extremely poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly funded, and poorly motivated, particularly to fight this battle. Technology is severely lacking for most forces, including the technology of communication and coordination. If you think the lack of coordination between the FBI and CIA was bad, you would be appalled and the lack in Russia.

Further, many valuable resources and assets have been reallocated in the last five years to combat the growing hegemonistic desires and capabilities of regional neighboors such as Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Turkmenistan, and others, weakening and depleting Russian resources. Couple this with all of the many and constant conflicts raging in the FSU, from small contained ones like, Ajara, TransDnestr/Moldova, Georgia/Sout Ossetia, Ingushetia, as well as the major battle in Chechnya, and it becomes obvious that already limited capital, limited in regards to equipment, monetary, and human capital, are spread woefully thin. They simply don't have enough of anything to succeed.

Another major issue, which was touched upon somewhere earlier by eX is corruption. Russian security, border/immigration, and transportation forces are rife with it. It is incredibly easy for terrorists, or smugglers, or whomever, to go where they want to go, when they want to go there, and posing as whomever they wish to be. Russia has almost no accountability for those moving about in their varied regions.

Border security is another serious problem. In many areas, there is none. Parts of Russia, and the surrounding areas, have areas that make the United States' border seem as a walled-off maximum security prison. Terrorists can not only go where they want, they can move with them whatever they want, often with the aid of Russian citizens.

There are a couple of other reasons, such as societal ones relating to vigilance and acceptance, but I think the ones posted above sum up the basics of my thoughts and feelings. Unfortunately, Russia is a far cry from even the paper tiger she was at the end of the Cold War. She is outgunned and outmatched.


Which is why I somewhere else, (don't remember if it was this thread or the airliner one), vaguely alluded to the only real available option. That is, taking the battle someplace else, reframing the battle. Russia can not afford to wait to be hit again. They have to hit the terrorist where they truly are, they have to change the dynamics of the war, much like was attempted to be accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia must use what strength it has, still a powerful conventional military, to eliminate those attacking them on a now daily basis. If that means doing something in the Middle East, or a final battle against the likes of Basayev in Chechnya, then so be it. I don't think they ever will, but I honestly don't know what else they can do, except grin and bear it. Sad.


But of course, this is as always, just my humble opinon.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.


Man, where have you been with this old news? ;)

Just kidding, and I agree. I am very anxious to hear what he has to say and do. I think the actions of the past day are some indication. He has to act and talk tough, not afraid to lose some, (many?), innocent lives, to further his political aims. Honestly, I think his talk will be far more blusterous than his action. I feel the people of Russia are going to give him a pass on this one.

If you're going to take the fight to the terrorists ala (dare I say it Iraq - don't really like that example for numerous reasons, but work with me here), then you're looking at Saudi Arabia. This is the leading country with the Wahhabist movement. The US and the rest of the West would not accept Russia running roughshod all over Saudi Arabia. Where can they strike out with their military? You can't even take the fight to the arab terrorists in Chechnya since they'll just slip across the border to the south and you're screwed because you can't follow them. They are the main problem now, not the domestic Chechen fighters.

At any point does the West consider propping up the Russian regime, or assisting it militarily? The more bankrupt it becomes, the more likely that WMD will be sold to the black market and find their way into NYC or Washington's harbors. I think Russia needs the West more than it knows, but they're too stubborn to seek the help.

Been out in the real world for a bit, and so had to catch up here. A few observations...

Originally posted by retihsuhnt
When I first heard this story I knew that it would be a repeat of the theater massacre last year.

Russians just dont seem to be able to get hostage situations 'right'. Hell Americans cant either, but we dont get death tolls in the 100s.

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

More criticism with absolutely ZERO offering of any alternative. I'm getting tired of asking what you who would criticize hardline tactics would do otherwise, because all I get back is dead silence... and then the criticism starts up all over again. -ohbfrank-

Originally posted by waveform
...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Complete cheap shot. How long has it been Pentagon policy? It goes back way beyond 3 friggin' years, I know that much. [Thanks to OldDude for that excellent subsequest post which proved my assumption correct :up: ]

Originally posted by waveform
If it takes a ban on pictures that show what the domestic effects are, then you are hiding from reality.

Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice? Seems like no one had a problem when it was Tillman, and he got killed by his own guys.

Should we just not recognize all the non-NFL soldiers? Oh, I forgot, his sacrifice was bigger because he was going to be making more money. The dead reservsts who just worked for a living...well they should be happy that Ted Koppel read out their names.

Pathetic. Woefully pathetic. The only reason you want the pictures shown is to sensationalize the body count for your "U.S. OUT OF IRAQ!!" agenda. Plain and simple. Please don't insult my intelligence and try to spin it any other way, as you already have with this absolutely pathetic post. I am seriously ill after reading that obviously insincere post.


Originally posted by Pelayu
I don't know about U.S. but there was absolutely no so called cowboyism in the assault of the Russian special forces. Adults and children smashed windows and ran from the school after an unexpected bomb explosion (they say a lot of things: one of the bombs attached to the ceiling fell down and got detonated/ there was some split between the terrorists: some of them wanted to stay, others wanted to flee ...) and terrorists opened fire on them shooting in their backs indiscriminately. Return fire was opened by the Russian troops, thus, determining their further actions. Who knows what happened if the troops just let it be like it was? I'm still sure, though (and there are a lot of people who share the same opinion), Alfa should have launched the storm last night. But it is just another "what if".
Thank you for the clarification, Pelayu, and thank you for posting at all. We can seriously use your perspective here, it is more appreciated than I believe I can convey.

Russia School Standoff Ends With 250 Dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20040904/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure

BESLAN, Russia - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials said the toll was at least 250.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.

Why were some of the hostages naked? It wasn't enough to threaten them with bombs and such, they had to be humiliated too?

I thought it was because it was too hot in the gymnasium esp. without water.

VinVega,

I seriously doubt the US has the balls to spearhead a massive terrorist hunt, and I would place my bets on Russia to do something original and worthwhile. Even when 9/11 happened, most terrorists fled into other surrounding countries. We never got OBL, and it took us 9 months to capture a complete idiot named Saddam. We suck at fighting terrorism.

I think the Middle East is more terrified of our withdrawal of monetary support, than they are of our military might.

The US is into fluffy war games, and in the meantime hundreds of US soldiers get killed for nothing.

Originally posted by Debaser
I thought it was because it was too hot in the gymnasium esp. without water.

Yes, that is correct. I was able to watch all of Fox News when this story broke, tonight on my Tivo. The temperatures were in the mid 90's, so in the gymnasium where there were hundreds or over a thousand people, the temps had to be well over 100 degrees.

Then take into account that they didn't have any water for over 24 hours and they started to take off their clothes to be as cool as possible. It must have been VERY miserable in there.

Death was too good for the terrorists, but they will have their rewards in Hell.

Chris

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
VinVega,

I seriously doubt the US has the balls to spearhead a massive terrorist hunt, and I would place my bets on Russia to do something original and worthwhile. Even when 9/11 happened, most terrorists fled into other surrounding countries. We never got OBL, and it took us 9 months to capture a complete idiot named Saddam. We suck at fighting terrorism.

I think the Middle East is more terrified of our withdrawal of monetary support, than they are of our military might.

The US is into fluffy war games, and in the meantime hundreds of US soldiers get killed for nothing.


And I guarantee you that because of this, something really bad is going to happen on our soil again in the near future. Then we will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, wondering why it happened to us again.

The reason this will have happened, is because we didn't take out all of these guys when we should have. You can't tell me that the most powerful nation in the world, cannot take care of this problem. Sure we might step on some toes of the countries where these guys are hiding in (Pakistan, Iran, Syria, etc), but better that than seeing our innocent children die horrible deaths in their schools! :(

They are just like cockroaches. If you don't kill every last single one of them, their idealogy will continue to multiply. And believe me, there are thousands of young terrorist children right now, who would love to be in Paradise! Maybe they're too young to know about the 72 virgins ;), but they know about dying and are waiting for their chance.

Sorry, but the scenes on my tv tonight brought tears to my eyes and rage to my heart. And I'm a Christian!

Chris

Yeah, it's pretty sad when you live in one of the most powerful countries in the world, and an idiot who doesn't even have a high school education can waltz right into your backyard and wreak havoc on your life and kill those you love.

Maybe someday the US will wake up. But as you say, I definitely see at least a few simultaneous attacks on the US to make our leaders understand you cannot negotiate with terrorists--or their countries who represent them.

We have to ask ourselves if Fat Man and Little Boy created a more peaceful environment at the cost of lives. We need to start using our muscles fully extended.

Exactly. Harris and Klebold had free reign of Columbine High, wandering the halls while the cops and SWAT twiddled their thumbs outside, afraid to do anything. Surprised it has happened since.For one thing, the police have changed their tactics since then. No more "seal off the area and wait for reinforcements."

Originally posted by Pharoh

Pelayu,

Where are you from, if you don't mind?

Moscow, Russia :wave:

I'm looking at the photos for the first time this morning. Absolutely heartbreaking. I'm at a loss for words trying to make any sense how another human could commit these acts.

Originally posted by Pharoh

Which is why I somewhere else, (don't remember if it was this thread or the airliner one), vaguely alluded to the only real available option. That is, taking the battle someplace else, reframing the battle. Russia can not afford to wait to be hit again. They have to hit the terrorist where they truly are, they have to change the dynamics of the war, much like was attempted to be accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia must use what strength it has, still a powerful conventional military, to eliminate those attacking them on a now daily basis. If that means doing something in the Middle East, or a final battle against the likes of Basayev in Chechnya, then so be it. I don't think they ever will, but I honestly don't know what else they can do, except grin and bear it. Sad.


You raise some great points, However, I am not sure taking the battle to the terrorists is an option for them. As you point out, they lack the resources and coordination for internal security. Many countries get themselves into trouble in war with long supply, inability to protect them, inadequate coordination, etc. A country weak in the technological resources and funding probably can't do it. Only the US has a miltary doctrine claiming to support the ability to wage major war on two far-flung fronts, and we are probably bluffing. This is also why Europe isn't a power, moreless a superpower. They really can't project power much beyond their own borders.

Originally posted by Ranger
Why were some of the hostages naked? It wasn't enough to threaten them with bombs and such, they had to be humiliated too?

They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

I'm so ready for this world to end....

:(

Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave:


Thanks for the response. And even though you aren't necessarily new here, welcome to the forum! Yours thoughts and views are definitely most welcomed and appreciated. Thank You.

Originally posted by Pelayu
They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

These poor children and teens are going to be scarred for life. This tells me that the terrorists had no compassion whatsoever for the young ones, not letting them have any water. Sure they let some of the moms and infants go, but they were just stalling for time.

As I watched Fox yesterday, one of the commentators said that the Russian government was not going to give in to any of their demands, so the terrorists mission was doomed to fail from the beginning and the terrorists themselves probably knew that from the start. So they probably expected that they would be killing a lot of children and young people and had already accepted that fact! :(

Chris

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

Over 300 killed in Russian school siege
Survivors tell of unspeakable horrors; Putin visits town

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040903/040903_hostages_hmed_530p.h2.jpg

A volunteer carries a small child after Russian special forces stormed a school seized by heavily armed masked men and women in the town of Beslan in the province of North Ossetia near Chechnya on Friday.

The Associated Press

Updated: 6:53 a.m. ET Sept. 4, 2004

BESLAN, Russia - Emergency workers on Saturday pulled more than 320 bodies out of a southern Russian school that had been held by heavily armed militants, a prosecutor said, and President Vladimir Putin accused the attackers of trying to spark an ethnic conflict that would engulf Russia's troubled Caucasus Mountains region.

The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky as saying 322 bodies, including those of 155 children, had been recovered from the school in Beslan. That raised the death toll well beyond the 250 officials had previously cited.

Putin ordered the borders of North Ossetia closed Saturday as security forces searched the southern region for militants who escaped .

'All Russia grieves'

At least 92 of 283 children hospitalized following the bloody and chaotic gunbattle Friday in the town of Beslan were listed in very grave condition. In all, some 531 people remained hospitalized. Many were said to have been killed or wounded when a roof collapsed from an explosion before the Russian assault of the building began.

“All Russia grieves with you,” Putin said during a visit to the scene Saturday, carried on government television. “Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children.”

Putin said he had ordered North Ossetia’s borders closed while officials searched for suspects in the hostage-taking, carried out by militants seeking independence for the nearby republic of Chechnya.

“One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said. “Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Valery Andreyev, Russia’s Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants killed. The Arab presence among the attackers would support Putin’s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were deeply involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces on and off for more than a decade.

Series of attacks

New evidence suggested the attack had been planned long beforehand. A regional security officer told the Interfax news agency that militants had smuggled the explosives and weapons into the school and hidden them under the floor during a renovation this summer. :eek:

The attack follows a suicide bomb attack outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday that killed eight people, and last week’s near-simultaneous crash of two Russian jetliners last week after what officials believe were explosions on board. Those attacks were also linked to the conflict in Chechnya.

Putin arrived with smoke still rising from the shattered school, just hours after the last scattered shooting died away. Emergency workers recovered 235 bodies, including those of 143 children, from the school on Saturday, regional health ministry officials at the site said.

On Friday, commandos stormed the building and battled militants as crying children, some half-naked and covered with blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. Other children lay dead on stretchers lined up outside.

Growing toll

Fatima Khabalova, spokeswoman for the North Ossetian parliament, confirmed that 250 people were known to be dead. About 200 of the dead are children, she told The Associated Press.

The republic’s deputy health minister, Taimuraz Revazov, said 80 bodies including those of 12 children were in the city morgue. It was unclear whether the morgue toll included any of the dead found in the school on Saturday.

Dozens of people crowded around lists of survivors posted at the Beslan hospital, searching desperately for news of loved ones who were not yet accounted for. A man showed hospital nurses a photograph — a young boy dressed in a suit, like he was going to a birthday party or holiday celebration.

“We run here, we run there, like we’re out of our minds, trying to find out anything we can about them,” said Tsiada Biazrova, 47, whose neighbors’ children had yet to be found.

The majority of the dead who were found in the gym were killed by explosions before the assault began, causing part of the roof to collapse, Interfax and the ITAR-Tass news agency said, citing North Ossetian police.

An explosives expert told NTV television that the hostage-takers, themselves strapped with explosives, hung bombs from basketball hoops in the gym and set other explosive devices in the building.

Militants opened fire on hostages

Russian authorities said they stormed the building after the militants set off explosions and fired shots as emergency teams approached to collect the bodies of several men killed earlier. They said the hostage-takers had given them permission to take the corpses away. Witnesses quoted by Russian media said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.

As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape. Commandos stormed into the building and secured it, then chased fleeing militants in the town, with shooting lasting for 10 hours.

Channel One TV reported three of the attackers were arrested after trying to escape in civilian dress. Four militants were believed to have escaped.

Fleeing hostages, many of them wounded, streamed from the building into the surrounding area and parents searched frantically for their children. Ambulances couldn’t carry all the injured and private cars were pressed into service.

The operation ended a 62-hour ordeal that began when masked gunmen burst into the school courtyard on Wednesday, shooting in the air and herding people into the gym.

The region’s governor, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday that the militants had demanded that Russian troops leave Chechnya — the first solid indication that the attack was connected to the rebellion.

Unspeakable horror

Hostages told of more than two days of unspeakable horror — of children so frightened they couldn’t sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill off hostages one by one. The gym where they were held was so cramped there was hardly room to move and so hot adults encouraged children to strip off their clothes.

When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their captors simply sneered, said Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who was taken captive with her 7-year-old son and mother, all three among the survivors.

“They were totally indifferent,” Gadieyeva said.

President Bush said the hostage siege was “another grim reminder” of the lengths to which terrorists will go. World governments joined Washington in condemning the militants.

Putin warned against letting the latest attack in North Ossetia stir up tensions in the multiethnic North Caucasus region. “One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said.

“Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Putin saw several of the hospitalized victims, stopping to stroke the head of one injured child and the arm of a woman.

Two emergency services workers were killed and three wounded, Interfax reported. Eighteen wounded commandos were being treated in a Defense Ministry hospital in the town of Vladikavkaz, the news agency reported, most of them with bullet wounds.

Intermittent negotiations led to the freeing of about 26 women and children on Thursday, and Russian officials and others had been in on-and-off contacts with the hostage-takers, but with few signs of progress toward a resolution.

Russian officials stressed that they had not planned to storm the school. The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities used force.

Two major hostage-taking raids by Chechen rebels outside the war-torn region in the past decade provoked Russian rescue operations that led to many deaths. The seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002 ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

In 1995 — during the first of two wars in Chechnya in the past decade — rebels led by guerrilla commander Shamil Basayev seized a hospital in the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk, taking some 2,000 people hostage. The six-day standoff ended with a fierce Russian assault, and some 100 people died.

Putin had said Thursday that everything possible would be done to end the “horrible” crisis and save the lives of the children and other hostages in this town of 35,000 people.


That picture just tears out my heart. Wow the explosives and weapons were planted well in advance. Putin's response so far, seems to be very weak!

Chris

Originally posted by OldDude
You raise some great points, However, I am not sure taking the battle to the terrorists is an option for them. As you point out, they lack the resources and coordination for internal security. Many countries get themselves into trouble in war with long supply, inability to protect them, inadequate coordination, etc. A country weak in the technological resources and funding probably can't do it. Only the US has a miltary doctrine claiming to support the ability to wage major war on two far-flung fronts, and we are probably bluffing. This is also why Europe isn't a power, moreless a superpower. They really can't project power much beyond their own borders.


And your points are very good, valid, and most likely, and unfortunately, correct. It is just so damn frustrating. It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

Originally posted by Pharoh
It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

No they won't! Why, because it makes sense.

Chris

Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave:

Privyet :wave:

Some of President Putin's words spoken in Beslan:


It is a difficult and bitter task to speak. A horrid tragedy has happened in our land. Throughout the past few days, each of us has been suffering deeply and has been putting through their heart all that was happening in the Russian town of Beslan, where we came face to face not just with murderers but with people who were using weapons against defenseless children,

And now may I offer words of support and compassion primarily to people who have lost what was the most precious thing in their life. Their children, their near and dear.

I ask you to think of all those who have died at the hands of the terrorists in the past few days.

Originally posted by Pharoh
It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

China will join once the US allows them to take Taiwan. :lol:

And now, for the Arab response...

School Siege Prompts Horror, Self-Criticism in Arab World (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB6UEBZPYD.html)
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Images of dead, wounded and traumatized Russian children being carried from the scene of a rebel school siege horrified Arabs, prompting forthright self-criticism Saturday and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam and its followers.

Arab leaders, Muslim clerics and ordinary parents across the Middle East denounced the school siege that left more than 340 people dead, many of them children, as unjustifiable.

Some warned such actions damage Islam's image more than all its enemies could hope. Even some supporters of Islamic militancy condemned it, though at least one insisted Muslims were not behind it.

The hostage-takers were reportedly demanding the independence of the mostly Muslim Russian republic of Chechnya - a caused embraced by Arab Islamists. "Holy warriors" from the Middle East long have supported Chechen fighters, and Russian officials said nine or 10 Arabs were among militants killed when commandos stormed the Beslan school in southern Russia on Friday.

Middle East security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was too early to know the nationalities of the Arabs among the dead militants. However, a prominent Arab journalist wrote that Muslims must acknowledge the painful fact that Muslims are the main perpetrators of terrorism.

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of the al-Qaida terror network.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us."

Arab TV stations repeatedly aired footage of terrified young survivors being carried from the school siege scene, while pictures of dead and wounded children ran on front pages of Saturday's newspapers in the region.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist and columnist for Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, wrote that the images "showed Muslims as monsters who are fed by the blood of children and the pain of their families."

"If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote.

Other Islamists were more cautious in their criticism.

Mohammed Mahdi Akef, leader of Egypt's largest Islamic group, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, said the siege did not fit the Islamic concept of "jihad," or holy war, but took care not to characterize it as terrorism.

"What happened ... is not jihad because our Islam obligates us to respect the souls of human beings," Akef said. "Real jihad should target occupiers of our lands only like the Palestinian and Iraqi resistance."

Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini religious scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic" but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

Some contributors to Islamic Web sites known for their extremist content praised the separatists and predicted the Islamic fighters from Egypt would avenge the killings of Muslims elsewhere.

Syria condemned the hostage-taking "in the harshest terms," describing it as "a terrorist, cowardly action," the state-run SANA news agency said.

"As a father, I can tell you that all the fathers and mothers in Jordan pray humbly to God to stand by their counterparts in Russia in their grief," Jordan's King Abdullah II, whose wife is expecting their fourth child, said on state-run television.

Mona Khalil, a 48-year-old secretary in Amman, said her heart ached at the sight of the frightened children and their weeping relatives.

"What on earth were the kidnappers thinking about when they took the children hostage?" she asked. "These criminals don't fear God? They have no mercy in their hearts? They don't have children?"

Mohammed Saleh Ebrahim, a 31-year-old Bahraini who was back-to-school shopping in the Gulf island nation with his two daughters, described the hostage-takers as "worse than animals."

"It's because of these people Muslims and Arabs are getting a bad name around the world," he said.

Optimist P.O.V = "This is what we need to hear from the Arab/Muslim community, and more of it, more often."

Pessimist P.O.V. = "Well, what the hell else are they going to say?"

I actually hold both opinions.

yet, somehow the Jews are responsible.
rotflrotfl

Well, of course. :)

The official death toll is now up to 330 innocents. Another 69 individuals, many children, are still listed in critical condition.


:(

-sigh- :(

Have they come to a conclusion as to just how many were in there total yet, or did I miss it?

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.


On to the next attack, in other words.

Damn, Abdullah, those Jews for Chechnya struck again.

Originally posted by Pelayu
They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

I thought about that but I didn't think it would be that warm since I consider Russia to be typically cold. But I guess with a range of ten time zones, the temperature can vary significantly for different territories.

It is pretty terrible. I can't imagine going through that. :(

Originally posted by kvrdave
"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.


On to the next attack, in other words.

When I first started reading what you had posted there, I thought it was your attempt at a sick joke (sorry), then I saw that this was actually said by someone (Abdullah) (Satan)! :(

Chris

Come on folks, that's just one guy. ;)

retihsuhnt, make your point without attacking the other person. This is a warning to calm down before posting.

I wonder how will this guy fare in the next election.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/17/russia.elex.01/link.zyuganov.jpg

I don't think being a communist and against action in Chechnya is going to win him many votes right now.

Official death toll up to 338, with some reports claiming 270 of the victims have been indentified. There are still close to 200 people on missing lists.

:(

After reading many more details of the events at the conclusion of this tragedy, it is becoming more and more painfully obvious how badly Russian forces messed up, adding unnecessarily to the loss of life. Their "special" forces, including the Alpha Team, were anything but special. I desparately hope they take up some of the offers for assistance they've been given, including the Australian one, so they can do something about this, and learn how to not let this happen again like it did.

Originally posted by retihsuhnt
Hey, Ill put it in simple terms for you: THE RUSSIANS F$%#ED UP! IS THAT BETTER? I didnt include your holy Americans.

Yes, we fucked up. There were a lot of people around the school (civilians who had their children or relatives there ) who instead of rushing inside the building and making up a mess, had to stay where they were. The authorities should have controlled this crowd. Moreover, what were they doing there at all? Police should have set up a much larger perimeter. Logically, neither police nor troops had to intervene [shoot]. It was their fault. Everybody of them had to make way for Alfa commandos but they just complicated the work of the antiterror group, which in it's turn shouldn't have rescued anybody. That's is not what they were sent for. Result: Alfa commandos, troops and local police with the children in their hands all in the same blood bath shooting each other. Lack of coordination? No. It is the apotheosis of idiocy.
Of course, criticizing is always much easier, but, hey, they should have had a plan. According to what I saw, what I read and what I was said, there was no plan at all. Even if the authorities don't think for a minute about the assault, men who are in charge of it, shouldn't waste their time.

Originally posted by Pharoh
I don't think being a communist and against action in Chechnya is going to win him many votes right now.

Not a single chance for this freakin' rudiment to win anything here. :D Extreme pro-Western activists or democrats leaning towards aggressive foreign policy (also known here as dermocrats meaning shitcrats)are also unlikely to come to power. Or it will be parties of moderated (liberal) democracy who consider Russia as independent of anybody else and a self-sufficient power or nationalistically oriented parties (latently or not).

Originally posted by Pelayu
Not a single chance for this freakin' rudiment to win anything here. :D Extreme pro-Western activists or democrats leaning towards aggressive foreign policy (also known here as dermocrats meaning shitcrats)are also unlikely to come to power. Or it will be parties of moderated (liberal) democracy who consider Russia as independent of anybody else and a self-sufficient power or nationalistically oriented parties (latently or not).


Are there fears in Russia that Putin, who has already blamed this tragedy on the fall of the Soviet Union and outside foreign forces looking to tear Russia apart, as well as on Russian weakness and unpreparedness, will use this horrific event to suppress liberties even more than he has, and completely consolidate his power? Are any worried that he will play on the vulnerabilities of the Russian people for personal gain?

Or, is that assessment completely lacking? Will he be looked at simply as the only man to get complete the task?

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.

First they said three of them were captured alive, then one of the officials denied this info saying that everybody got killed in the assault. Nonetheless, several witnesses assured they saw special forces agents convoy one of the terrorists along the dead bodies of his fellows. He is said to have been identifying them. Maybe they just killed all the captives without trial...but it is very unlikely.

Another question, if you don't mind.

What the hell is wrong with the tv stations over there? Showing damn soap operas, (if I have the type of show correct), instead of following the storming of the school. I don't get it.

Originally posted by Pelayu
First they said three of them were captured alive, then one of the officials denied this info saying that everybody got killed in the assault. Nonetheless, several witnesses assured they saw special forces agents convoy one of the terrorists along the dead bodies of his fellows. He is said to have been identifying them. Maybe they just killed all the captives without trial...but it is very unlikely.


Also strange are the conflicting reports regarding the number of vile scum involved in the attack. Minister Dzgoyev claims 35 were involved, and all killed, while Deputy Prosecutor Fridinsky states that 32 were originally involved, with 30 of them being accounted for and identified.

An official from the morgue in North Ossetia's capital claims the death toll sits at 394. Just completely sickening. :mad:


And while it's not widespread, the criticism of Putin has been blistering, including that coming from the people of Beslan.

I'd be interested in learning more about the current state of Russia's "Special Forces." I imagine under the Soviet Union they had some of the world's best. Are they no longer up to the badass-ness of Rambo 3?

The Peruvian special forces successfully liberated the Japanese embassy from terrorists a few years ago, with only one hostage being killed. The Peruvian soldiers killed all the terrorists. They also had to assault a multifloor building. I wonder what did go wrong with the Russian operation.

These terrorists at the Japanese Embassy, who were MRTA, were TOTALLY different than the ones at the Russia school. The only similarity was that they wanted their peers freed from prison. :)

The MRTA's intention was not to kill most of their hostages. The proof was how long this hostage crisis lasted (about 4 months). They wanted to convey their grievances. The MRTA also released 378 of the 450 hostages.

This is behavior MUCH unlike our terrorist shitheads at the Beslan school. I've never seen Muslim Terrorists last 4 months, let alone 4 days, in a hostage stand-off. If they really wanted their peers released from prison, they would have let their captives eat and drink water, and the hostage negotiations would have lasted a lot longer.

Muslim Terrorists usually want to kill hostages more than they want to express their political desires--which brings us to a very interesting crossroad here. The MRTA at the Japanese Embassy expressed political means, which is "true" terrorism. Terrorism is the result of political needs not met.

But in the case of Muslim Terrorists, what exactly is their goal? It seems as if they just want to kill for the fun of it. They get off on it. They have no real political goals in mind. Their goals are mostly twisted religious beliefs.

This is why I put Muslim Terrorists into a totally different category of terrorism than other terrorists. They all have an uncommon unsatiable desire to kill. If they did have any political desires, it's downplayed by their violence and hatred towards their captives who will eventually die. I mean, if any of us were to get held hostage by a Muslim Terrorist, you should be aware your chances of living are 10% or less. Fight back as quickly and deadly as you can, because most likely, you will die within a short period of time.
---

As to having a few terrorists alive in custody, indeed they do. Whatever they say after the fact is just cover so they can torture these guys until they are dead. Which is fine with me..

Originally posted by mike45
The Peruvian special forces successfully liberated the Japanese embassy from terrorists a few years ago, with only one hostage being killed. The Peruvian soldiers killed all the terrorists. They also had to assault a multifloor building. I wonder what did go wrong with the Russian operation.

Well, if we believe the story we've been told, it wasn't a time of their choosing. Some explosion went off, whether accidental or intentional, some hostages used the confusion to try to escape, the terrorists began shooting them in the back, Russian troops returned fire.

That pretty well committed them to an assault on the building when they hadn't planned on it.

Now that story may in fact be untrue, but I haven't seen in refuted yet. Successful special ops are always at a time of their choosing when everything is ready, everyone knows the drill. This was a cluster fuck.

Originally posted by BJacks
I'd be interested in learning more about the current state of Russia's "Special Forces." I imagine under the Soviet Union they had some of the world's best. Are they no longer up to the badass-ness of Rambo 3?


It is very debateable whether they ever were extremely skilled and proficient, but clearly most of the fame and reknown they are accorded are due to actions conducted in the late 1970s and early to mid 1980s. (One unit was not founded until 1981).

The collapse of the Soviet Empire and, more importantly, the reign of Yeltsin, during whose time two significant events relating to the Spetsnaz took place, did much to severely weaken Russian special forces.

Despite the fact that the best and brightest of the forces left in 1993, and the fact that the focus and structure of the Special units were repeatedly changed, Russia insists that the Spetsnaz are as capable and effective as ever. Their record since 1993 would indicate otherwise.

I have to agree with Pharoh, that Russian Terrorist Forces are not as up to their normal standard as they used to be. Putin even says as much in his address to the Russian nation.

I think the reason in particular for Spetsnaz not being as capable is because the countries who split-off from the USSR integrated their troops as Spetsnaz--even though these troops had no training or expertise like their original Spetsnaz troops.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Fight back as quickly and deadly as you can, because most likely, you will die within a short period of time.
---



:thumbsup:

As I pray to Jesus! ;)

Chris

These folks were highly trained for this - they had brought dogs, gas masks, etc. They weren't going to give up without a major fight and lots of casualties.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/international/europe/05CND-TERR.html
nside the charred, bullet-pocked wreckage of Middle School No. 1 lies evidence of the terror Russia faces: two parts of the library's wooden floor had been pried up, evidently by the heavily armed attackers who seized the school and held 1,000 hostages for 52 hours.

Beneath the schools first-floor library, investigators now suspect, the attackers had secreted a cache of weapons or other equipment weeks, perhaps months before their brutal attack, possibly during a seemingly innocuous summer renovation, officials said.

While investigators have only begun to piece together the details of the worst act of terror to strike Russia, the holes in the library's floor, which might easily be overlooked in the gruesome carnage of the school, underscored the sophistication and coordination that has accompanied the radicalization of the attacks that have convulsed the country.

The attackers — said to include Chechens, Ingush, ethnic Russians and some still-unidentified foreigners — followed a plan after the school's seizure with precision and alacrity, forcing their hostages to help place explosives and build barricades. They wore NATO-issued camouflage. They carried gas masks, compasses and first-aid kits, communicated with hand-held radios and brought along two sentry dogs, apparently as expertly trained as the attackers themselves.

"They knew the geography of the school grounds like their own backyard," the chief spokesman for Russia's Federal Security Service, Sergei N. Ignatchenko, said in a telephone interview on Saturday. "This allowed them to choose sniper positions and place booby-traps on all possible access routes."

The depth of planning evident in the horrifying siege, which by today's official count left 338 hostages dead, mirrored that of a series of attacks that have roiled Russia, beginning with a similar siege of a Moscow theater during a performance of a musical called "Nord-Ost" in October 2002 and continuing through a grim litany of suicide bombings and other strikes that culminated with shocking brutality here last week.

Like Al Qaeda's militants, which President Vladimir V. Putin and others argue provide succor to Chechnya's separatists, the extremists believed to be behind all attacks have managed to dispatch cells of ideologues who spend extended periods organizing and carrying out spectacular, unnerving attacks, often suicidal ones.

The attackers — believed to be members of a contingent led by Shamil Basayev, Chechnya's most notorious and lethal rebel commander — have moved seamlessly between the North Caucasus and Moscow, while evading Russia's extensive, if at times ineffective, security apparatus. They have so despite particular scrutiny that falls on anyone appearing to be Chechen.

In February, a female suicide bomber, possibly with an accomplice, destroyed a Moscow subway car, killing at least 41 early-morning commuters. In May, a bomb planted beneath a stadium grandstand killed Chechnya's president, Akhmad Kadyrov, as he watched a Victory Day parade in Grozny. In June, hundreds of insurgents used stolen uniforms of the local police to seize much of Ingushetia's capital for hours, stopping and executing the real police officers who raced to reinforce their colleagues, killing nearly 100.

On Aug. 21, fighters carried out a similar raid in Grozny, with similar tactics, killing at least 22. Three days later, bombs believed to be carried by two Chechen women destroyed separate passenger airliners simultaneously, killing 90 people. A week later, a female suicide blew herself up outside the Rizhskaya subway station in Moscow, killing 10. Hours after that the siege in Beslan began.

"They have shown they are able to do everything they want in each corner of Russia," said Aleksei Malashenko, an analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center.

Russian state-run television says the government has a man in custody who was part of the group responsible for the deadly school siege in Beslan.

The network showed footage of the man, whose name was not given, being heavily guarded by commando forces.

The suspect, who spoke on camera, proclaimed his innocence.

"Of course I pitied the children, I swear to Allah. I have children myself. I didn't shoot. I swear to Allah," he said. "I don't want to die. I swear to Allah, I want to live."

No information was provided as to when and where the suspect was taken into custody.

Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave: hey, cool, i was born in Leningrad :)
I'm surely late for discussions, but i read on kp.ru last night that one of the terrorists was beaten to death by the citizens.
And there were eyewitnesses accounts of how they executed the males and were shooting the running children in the backs.
And how the kids had to drink urine because there was no water.
What i wonder is- the terrorists must've known what kind of reaction they would get from Russians for going after children. Is this another provocation? Are they trying to instigate more bloodshed? They must know that Russians will retaliate.

CK,

Not sure if you read my post a few days ago, but I said that these terrorists most likely were NOT planning to leave the building, and were going to blow up the school with everyone in it. Their behavior was more suicidal than it was political, which tells me the obvious of their intentions.

These guys (and a few gals) wanted to send a message more than they wanted to have their peers released from prison.

I think this is certainly a provocation, and as we all know how these sick people operate, they will claim to be victims once Putin starts to initiate his military. Muslim Terrorists are cowards. They love to kill men, women, and children who can't fight back but when faced equally with those carrying just as much lethal force, they run and hide like the cockroaches they are related to.

These people are disgusting and leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

Originally posted by Pelayu
Of course, criticizing is always much easier, but, hey, they should have had a plan. According to what I saw, what I read and what I was said, there was no plan at all. i don't think they expected the terrorists to start killiing children. It seems they were trying to avoid the shoot-out and get the children out without the bloodshed.

Originally posted by DVD Polizei
CK,

Not sure if you read my post a few days ago, but I said that these terrorists most likely were NOT planning to leave the building, and were going to blow up the school with everyone in it. Their behavior was more suicidal than it was political, which tells me the obvious of their intentions.

These guys (and a few gals) wanted to send a message more than they wanted to have their peers released from prison. no, haven't read the whole thread- haven't had time.
I wonder why they didn't blow it rup ight away though- they could've killed way more people. Also, look at the scum begging for his life and saying how he felt bad for children -rolleyes-
Me, i would very slowly torture him to death just to send a message.

You blow it up right away, you get no publicity.

(Chanster beat me to it somewhat)

CK,

They wanted the world as their "captive" audience for a while.

They also wanted to give the media enough time to swarm around the place and they also wanted time to get themselves dug-in to prevent ANY kind of successful hostage rescue.

These guys were pretty smart. They knew they had to act quickly because the knew Russian forces would take seige their hostage location if they didn't set up a perimeter.

What is not known for sure, is if the terrorists detonated the building, causing the roof to collapse. What I think happened, but I don't for sure, is that some hostages got away--it's inevitable with such a hostage-to-terrorist ratio, and some terrorists went after them (dumb idea on the terrorist's part), which caused the perimeter to be breached from the inside.

Russian forces were very keen on noticing this and took their chance to get in.

Russian forces could have initiated the attack, but I really doubt it. It was very early into the hostage crisis, and I am pretty sure Putin told everyone to sit still until a firm plan was made.

One thing you can always count on, is the unforeseeable and unplanned. The hostages who got loose may have actually initiated a domino effect which saved lives. I think everyone was about to be killed if time went on.

wrap them in pigskin

Originally posted by Cool Ki