DVD Talk
Hundreds Held Hostage in Russia School [Archive] - Page 2 - DVD Talk Forum
 
Best Sellers
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
The Longest Day
Buy: $54.99 $24.99
9.
10.
DVD Blowouts
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Alien [Blu-ray]
Buy: $19.99 $9.99
8.
9.
10.

PDA
DVD Reviews

View Full Version : Hundreds Held Hostage in Russia School


Pages : 1 [2]

chanster
09-03-04, 05:17 PM
The article said the terrorists had put on civilian clothes.

DVD Polizei
09-03-04, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by retihsuhnt
When I first heard this story I knew that it would be a repeat of the theater massacre last year.

Russians just dont seem to be able to get hostage situations 'right'. Hell Americans cant either, but we dont get death tolls in the 100s.

retihsuhnt,

When is the last time a school in the US of over 400 people were taken hostage by militants with explosives on themselves and the school was mined and littered with explosives as well.

Please.

Do a history check before making such a statement so you can at least come within a few thousand yards of making a valid point.

US law enforcement couldn't do ANY better. And I suspect they would screw up the first few times when dealing with a situation like this anyway.

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

Well, I guess 9/11 was our fault to, but tell this to a parent who's child was killed.

chanster
09-03-04, 05:24 PM
Hell the Columbine police fucked up dealing with 2 wack ass teenagers with guns.

mrpayroll
09-03-04, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by chanster
The article said the terrorists had put on civilian clothes.

Still, here in America in a hostage situation, the police treat all people as suspects until they can find out the truth. Everyone leaving the scene of the school should have been quarantined, until their innocence could be proven. Better to err on the cautious side, because as we can see, some of the escapees took more hostages. Just my thoughts.

Chris

tommy28
09-03-04, 05:28 PM
i found this picture interesting..

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040903/lthumb.mosb13509031828.russia_school_seizure_mosb135.jpg

waveform
09-03-04, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I know. :(

Reading a story and seeing hundreds of actual photos or video gives you a totally different perspective.

Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed.

DVD Polizei
09-03-04, 05:38 PM
mrpayroll,

There was a perimeter, but some terrorists broke through. Russia's Alfa team deals with these situations just like US law enforcement do. They didn't let anyone out of the perimeter. However, do to the circumstances of everyone crying and screaming and running every which way to get away from the school, it is not too hard to imagine a few terrorists getting away. Not to mention the thousands of other people who are swarming to the scene--you don't want the Russian army to get into a confrontation by holding them back with force, with them in an already dire situation.

If it was me, there would be a double perimeter in cases like this because of a high population count. But even then, who knows.

The US gets most of their hostage training and intel from outside the US, because they've never dealt with these situations before. A lot of the training comes from Germany, Russia, and the UK.

And then when you talk about quarantine, we should remember the Hollywood Shootout, where local police couldn't contain two heavily-armed bank robbers. If you can't handle two people armed with assault rifles, try 30-40 terrorists with explosives training and no fear of death. They could wipe out a typical police force of a city of 750,000, and would most likely have the National Guard reservists running back home to their mothers.

Believe me, once something like this happens in the US, we will lose the first few times because the US is just not prepared for this kind of attack.

adamblast
09-03-04, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by waveform
Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed. Be careful waveform. They'll say you have an agenda. Oooo.

mrpayroll
09-03-04, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
mrpayroll,

And then when you talk about quarantine, we should remember the Hollywood Shootout, where local police couldn't contain two heavily-armed bank robbers. If you can't handle two people armed with assault rifles, try 30-40 terrorists with explosives training and no fear of death. They could wipe out a typical police force of a city of 750,000, and would most likely have the National Guard reservists running back home to their mothers.

Believe me, once something like this happens in the US, we will lose the first few times because the US is just not prepared for this kind of attack.


You are probably right. I remember the North Hollywood shootout, because I had just started at Disney and we work about 5 miles away from there.

Chris

DVD Polizei
09-03-04, 05:50 PM
I just hope this crap can stop. It's just getting way out of hand. I hope Putin can spearhead some action.

P.S. I just read that a young Chechen woman in the town of Urus-Martan detonated herself in front of a military commandant, Gaidar Gadzhiyev. He's in serious condition, 1 soldier killed, 2 others wounded.

Manco
09-03-04, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by mrpayroll
Still, here in America in a hostage situation, the police treat all people as suspects until they can find out the truth. Everyone leaving the scene of the school should have been quarantined, until their innocence could be proven. Better to err on the cautious side, because as we can see, some of the escapees took more hostages. Just my thoughts.

Chris

Reminds me of the bleeding hearts crying when US operators busted into that hospital in Iraq with weapons trained and cuffed all those people when they rescued Jessica Lynch.

This is why you do those things. Take EVERYONE into custody until you sort everything out.

SomeVoices
09-03-04, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by waveform
Which is why you must never see photos of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq or see the injured and maimed soldiers whose lives have now been totally changed.
Actually, I think seeing those coffins serves as a vivid reminder of the sacrifices brave soldiers are making to defend freedom both at home and abroad.

Myster X
09-03-04, 06:57 PM
graphic pic
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/RUSSIA_SCHOOL_SEIZURE.sff_MOSB134_20040903142053.jpg

waveform
09-03-04, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by SomeVoices
Actually, I think seeing those coffins serves as a vivid reminder of the sacrifices brave soldiers are making to defend freedom both at home and abroad.


...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Pelayu
09-03-04, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

[/B]

Our only fault is that we have such an [censored] in power, who fears a lot about mining international/ interconfessional relations and other bullshit when there are hundreds of peope dying being shot in the back. He has no [censored] idea about what's going on in his country. He assures that terrorism has no nationality. It sure has. It has nationality and religion. Political correctness has lead us to the situation when we are afraid of pointing a finger on the world map at the countries who are terrorists' accomplices, who give them shelter and assign money for them. Everybody knows where this shit comes from and who makes this shit hit the fan. But no, terrorism has no geographical location. It is just an omnipresent guy with a thick gun.
Putin seems to have lost control of "his" country. After such "tense" two weeks (two jets, two exploded bombs near bus and metro stations and now this bloody hostage taking), I think it is high time for him to demit. Off he goes.

Sorry but emotions are still very high.

OldDude
09-03-04, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by waveform
...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Well, some of the families are opposed to the media turning their sacrifice into a media circus, too. But just screw them, right, they have no right to interfere with our seeing coffins.

waveform
09-03-04, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by OldDude
Well, some of the families are opposed to the media turning their sacrifice into a media circus, too. But just screw them, right, they have no right to interfere with our seeing coffins.

You'd be correct if they were publishing photos of individually marked and named coffins. But, that isn't what was happening.

What's happening is that the coffins get flown in and nobody gets to put out a photograph. Yes, the US admires its war dead...just not enough to acknowledge their arrival home.

So, just screw the families that have some pride in the sacrifice that their son/daughter/husband/wife made. After all, if the government can't supply 'em with enough bullets, why recognize them at all?

OldDude
09-03-04, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by waveform
You'd be correct if they were publishing photos of individually marked and named coffins. But, that isn't what was happening.

What's happening is that the coffins get flown in and nobody gets to put out a photograph. Yes, the US admires its war dead...just not enough to acknowledge their arrival home.

So, just screw the families that have some pride in the sacrifice that their son/daughter/husband/wife made. After all, if the government can't supply 'em with enough bullets, why recognize them at all?

A reasonably balanced article on the history of it. (You might note it was maintained during the Clinton administration, and upheld by courts in 1996)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001909526_coffinside22m.html
Images of war dead a sensitive subject

By Ray Rivera
Seattle Times staff reporter

The image was of row upon row of flag-draped coffins being loaded onto an Air Force cargo plane in Kuwait. They were American war dead, killed in a bloody month of fighting in Iraq. David Perlmutter, a professor at Louisiana State University, showed it to his class and asked: Would you have published it, as The Seattle Times did on Sunday?

Of the hundred or so in the class, most said no. But when asked to explain, Perlmutter said, they said that while "they didn't want to see the pictures, they said it's probably good we know that it's happening."

Americans have long struggled with the morality of showing images of war dead, especially fellow Americans.

Tami Silicio, a civilian contract worker, was fired yesterday for taking the picture of coffins being loaded in Kuwait and allowing The Times to publish it.

The Pentagon has banned the media from taking pictures of military caskets returning from war since 1991, citing concern for the privacy of grieving families and friends of the dead soldiers. The Bush administration issued a stern reminder of that policy in March 2003, shortly before the war in Iraq began.

Critics complain that the prohibition is an attempt by the administration to diminish the impact of the loss of American lives.

But whether the ban is a political tactic or is out of sincere concern for the families, the issue is more complex, said Perlmutter, the author of two books on war photography and a professor of mass communication.

"The image of dead Americans, especially the dead American soldier, is probably the most powerful image of war for Americans," he said. "It's the one that immediately strikes us in the gut, because we hate to see it but we recognize we may need to see it."

The poet Oliver Wendell Holmes captured this ambivalence in 1863 after viewing some of the first images of battlefield casualties being buried during the Civil War.

"Let him who wishes to know what war is look at this series of illustrations," he wrote. Once they did, he said, "Many, having seen it and dreamed of its horrors, would lock it up in some secret drawer ... as we would have buried the mutilated remains of the dead they too vividly represented."

Military censors instituted a virtual blackout of such photos in World War I. That ban continued until nearly the end of World War II.

"The assumption was the public didn't want to see it, and that it would undermine the war effort," Perlmutter said. "The Normandy invasion was a success, but how would we have felt at the time if we had seen the pictures of all these dead American soldiers on the beaches?"

Images of war dead proliferated in Vietnam, and throughout the 1980s, the government regularly allowed the media to take pictures of coffins returning from Lebanon, Grenada and Panama to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the primary arrival point for returning American soldiers killed overseas.

But in 1991, as the United States embarked on its first major war since Vietnam, the policy shifted. In January of that year, the administration of the first President Bush began prohibiting media outlets from taking pictures of coffins being unloaded at Dover. It instituted a total ban in November of that year.

"There was an attempt to not have another Vietnam in the sense that the administration was not going to allow the media to sell the war, one way or the other," said John Louis Lucaites, a communications and culture professor at Indiana University who teaches a class called "Visualizing War."

In 1996, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C., upheld the ban after media outlets and some other organizations sued to have it lifted. Citing the need to reduce the hardship and protect the privacy of grieving families, the court held that the ban did not violate First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech and of the press.

The National Military Family Association, one of the largest military-advocacy groups, supports the policy. "The families that we've heard from are more interested in their privacy and would hope that people would be sensitive to them in their time of loss," said Kathy Moakler, deputy director of government relations for the organization.

Moakler, who has two children in the military, said The Times was right to tell Silicio's story and to describe the respectful process by which the dead are transported home.

But the photograph, she said, was an invasion of privacy for families who might be wondering if their dead loved one was in that array of coffins.

But even among military families, such feelings are not universal.

Marianne Brown, the stepmother of an Army reservist serving in Baghdad, said Silicio's photograph was long overdue. The Michigan resident belongs to a group of military families who support the publication of photographs of coffins.

"We have to show that, because that's what we're paying for" in Iraq, said Brown, a 52-year-old artist living in South Haven, Mich. "Let's show the truth — the death of our kids. Otherwise it's just statistics."

Veteran Bill Egan of Flagler Beach, Fla., praised Silicio's photo. He was a military photographer aboard the USS Missouri in the 1980s as it escorted oil tankers through the Persian Gulf.

"I see nothing wrong with showing coffins, especially flag-draped coffins, because it's a reminder of what these people have given up," said Egan, 63.

Lucaites of Indiana University said the image had a powerful, mechanistic quality. "It almost makes it appear as if these coffins are on a conveyer belt, going off into infinity."

And if you're the current administration, he said, "this is not an image you want visualized."

Probably worth noting the Senate upheld the ban too, and even some Democrats supported the ban, so this is not quite as Geirge Bush vs everybody else as you paint it..
http://www.rcfp.org/news/2004/0622photog.html
Senate allows ban on photos of soldiers' caskets to stand
The Senate voted yesterday against legislation that would have required the Department of Defense to create new rules permitting photographers to cover the arrival and departure of caskets of military personnel killed abroad
June 22, 2004 -- The U.S. Senate voted 54-39 yesterday against legislation that would have instructed the Department of Defense to develop new rules permitting photographers on U.S. military bases to cover the arrival and departure of caskets containing the remains of soldiers killed overseas.

The measure was proposed by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) as an amendment to a $447.2 billion Pentagon spending bill for 2005. It was modified to allow the families of the fallen soldiers to decide whether they wanted media present. Republican Senators Olympia Snowe of Maine and John McCain of Arizona voted in favor of the bill, while seven Democrats joined 47 Republicans in opposition.

Mopower
09-03-04, 07:35 PM
If it takes a picture of a coffin to remind you that people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan then you are a bit out of touch.

waveform
09-03-04, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Mopower
If it takes a picture of a coffin to remind you that people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan then you are a bit out of touch.

If it takes a ban on pictures that show what the domestic effects are, then you are hiding from reality.

Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice? Seems like no one had a problem when it was Tillman, and he got killed by his own guys.

Should we just not recognize all the non-NFL soldiers? Oh, I forgot, his sacrifice was bigger because he was going to be making more money. The dead reservsts who just worked for a living...well they should be happy that Ted Koppel read out their names.

RoyalTea
09-03-04, 07:50 PM
what do caskets of American soliders have to do with the children of North Ossetia?

OldDude
09-03-04, 07:50 PM
Individual families are welcome to invite the press to the funeral. Hell, they can even open the casket and let them take photos of the wounds. But the bodies are flown back in groups and I think the preferences of the National Military Family Association should take precedence over the media vultures out for blood photos.

Th0r S1mpson
09-03-04, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by waveform
Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice?
Do you think these soldiers want their sacrifice "recognized" by parading their bodies around the streets or something?

Are you suggesting they aren't receiving their due military burials when they return home or something?

Remember that WWII veterans didn't even get a memorial until this past year.

And RoyalTea is right: "what do caskets of American soliders have to do with the children of North Ossetia?"

This isn't the place for this discussion. I apologize if I contributed to getting off-track.

Pelayu
09-03-04, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
And what is wrong with 'cowboyism' (childish phrase, by the way)? The Russians could be accused of 'cowboyism' in that they gassed the theater, and in that they stormed the school. Why in the flying fuck is it okay for the Russians to do it and it is somehow despicable when the U.S. does it?

That's complete bullshit.

I don't know about U.S. but there was absolutely no so called cowboyism in the assault of the Russian special forces. Adults and children smashed windows and ran from the school after an unexpected bomb explosion (they say a lot of things: one of the bombs attached to the ceiling fell down and got detonated/ there was some split between the terrorists: some of them wanted to stay, others wanted to flee ...) and terrorists opened fire on them shooting in their backs indiscriminately. Return fire was opened by the Russian troops, thus, determining their further actions. Who knows what happened if the troops just let it be like it was? I'm still sure, though (and there are a lot of people who share the same opinion), Alfa should have launched the storm last night. But it is just another "what if".

mikehunt
09-03-04, 07:56 PM
animals
specifically targeting children is worse than barbaric

Th0r S1mpson
09-03-04, 07:58 PM
Continued coffin photo discussion here:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=383673

Original Desmond
09-03-04, 08:03 PM
Let's take the high numbers

200 dead from 1500 hostages

There is no doubt that this was one of the most evil scenarios ever faced by soldiers but any competent Seal/Swat whatever team should be able to do better than those figures.

Th0r S1mpson
09-03-04, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Original Desmond
but any competent Seal/Swat whatever team should be able to do better than those figures.
I don't know about that... conssidering that most of them probably died in the gym at once when the bombs went off and the roof collapsed.

This all went down at an unexpected moment. Neither the terrorists nor the Russians decided the timeframe on this one so there was no indication that more immediate action was necessary in the negotiation phase..

adamblast
09-03-04, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Thor Simpson
I don't know about that... considering that most of them probably died in the gym at once when the bombs went off and the roof collapsed. Yep. It's a horribe scenario, and there's no way (right now, at least) of knowing if any military or police group, however trained, would have been able to do better.

That said, there's going to be tons of finger pointing. And given the lead-up in past weeks, there'll be extreme pressure to react strongly, just as there would be here in the states, whether there's a logical or a *just* counter-move to be made or not.

VinVega
09-03-04, 08:52 PM
I was so busy today, I did not have a chance to participate in this thread today. How sad that so many people lost their lives in this one. An OUTSTANDING job by the Russian forces to save as many people as they did. :up: Had they not taken military action, ALL of the hostages would be dead. We need to wake up and realize this.

Mutley, Polizei, Pharoh, great posts! I haven't read the whole thread yet, I got to about page 9.

Combining all of our countries' forces against these animals would be a wonderful thing. I doubt it would happen, but it's a nice dream.

How should Russia proceed in the future now? Don't go hardline on the Chechen civilian population. That is not productive, considering the influence for these type of attacks comes from outside Chechnya. Try to win over the civilian population with government aid if you can.

God, when I see crap like this, I just pray that we can get off our dependence on Mid East oil. It's our own dollars flowing over there that fund this shit. Dry up their money sources and you'll go a long way to cutting the terrorists' influence on the globe. I guess that's just another dream of mine. :(

Th0r S1mpson
09-03-04, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by VinVega
An OUTSTANDING job by the Russian forces to save as many people as they did. :up: I have to agree. Considering how many people we now know were in there, I would have predicted far more casualties, if not a total loss.

General Zod
09-03-04, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

Well, I guess 9/11 was our fault to, but tell this to a parent who's child was killed.

I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?

If I start a group that hates blue cars in Pittsburgh, and you have a blue car and we demand that you get a red car and you say no.. so we firebomb your house and kill your kids - well you know that's really your own fault.

Such bizarre backwards thinking in my mind. What am I missing? Or did I misunderstand?

waveform
09-03-04, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by General Zod
I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?

If I start a group that hates blue cars in Pittsburg, and you have a red car and we demand that you get a red car and you say no.. so we firebomb your house and kill your kids - well you know that's really your own fault.

Such bizarre backwards thinking in my mind. What am I missing? Or did I misunderstand?


It's only bizarre because they had a red car in the first place.

General Zod
09-03-04, 09:15 PM
Oops I fixed it.. thanks Waveform :)

waveform
09-03-04, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by General Zod
I just can't get past this kind of thinking. Apparently if you do something that upsets a group of people, or you don't change your policies and it upsets people - then whatever they do for revenge is justified and your own fault? What kinda crap is that?



Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?

waveform
09-03-04, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by General Zod
Oops I fixed it.. thanks Waveform :)

see. that's how wars get started.

mikehunt
09-03-04, 09:17 PM
the only thing worse than what these goatf*****s did is the apologists

dork
09-03-04, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by mikehunt
the only thing worse than what these goatf*****s did is the apologists
Being an apologist for a horrible act is worse than actually carrying out that act? :hscratch:

Pharoh
09-03-04, 09:21 PM
The much larger point, Russia knew something large was about to happen! They knew about suicide bombings about to happen, three days before they did! They can't do anything!


I also have to agree with the few in here who feel that Russian forces did not do a great job here. Perhaps it is simple second guessing, but I feel many many more lives could have been spared. Frankly, this egregious and horrific loss of life is not acceptable.




Pelayu,

Where are you from, if you don't mind?

General Zod
09-03-04, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by waveform
Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?
I'd be upset they want to take my gun away and I would protest it by writing to my gov. and all that - but would I take over a school and kill children?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could in any way even remotely justify that sort of activity, I don't care what the hell the reason is. I'm jewish. If I could go back in time to when my ancestors were getting killed in concetration camps would I take over a school and kill innocent german kids? Hell no. Would it be their parents fault if I did? Hell no. It would be my fault cause i'd be one seriously messed up person if I felt killing that little kid in the corner is justified.

Pharoh
09-03-04, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by waveform
Try looking at it this way. Next year a constitutional amendment passes that bans private ownership of firearms. Based on what you know of the people here, are they going to peacefully turn in their guns?

Or look back at some of the anti-abortion posts that justify shooting doctors and clinic employees?



Take this childish stupid bullshit somewhere else! Fuckin unbelievable!

waveform
09-03-04, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Pharoh
[B]
I also have to agree with the few in here who feel that Russian forces did not do a great job here. Perhaps it is simple second guessing, but I feel many many more lives could have been spared. Frankly, this egregious and horrific loss of life is not acceptable./B]


Well, I'm sure the Russians will want to consult with you in future before they undertake any further anti-terrorist activity.

What are the acceptable loss of life guidelines these days?

waveform
09-03-04, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by General Zod
I'd be upset they want to take my gun away and I would protest it by writing to my gov. and all that - but would I take over a school and kill children?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could in any way even remotely justify that sort of activity, I don't care what the hell the reason is. I'm jewish. If I could go back in time to when my ancestors were getting killed in concetration camps would I take over a school and kill innocent german kids? Hell no. Would it be their parents fault if I did? Hell no. It would be my fault cause i'd be one seriously messed up person if I felt killing that little kid in the corner is justified.

But you have to realize that many of these people see themselves as having nothing to lose. Suicide bombers are not going to get hung up on the morality of killing other people. That is part of the nature of a terrorist attack. It is meant to be horrific. They are not seeking sympathy, they are making a statement and seeking retribution.

greg9x
09-03-04, 10:06 PM
Sigh..... guess this incident was my reminder that the world can be a fucked up place.... :(

Do these 'people' really think they can better their cause through such actions ??

chanster
09-03-04, 10:35 PM
Actually terroristic activity is not always meant to be horrific. Back in the 80's, the point of terrorism was to make a point and then release the majority of people...i.e. Achille Lauro, TWA hijackings, etc, IRA etc.. It is meant to spread some terrror, but keep it in check. So you off a few hostages, release the rest, and get a cushy deal in another country.

Seems like in the last 10 years, terroristic activity has pretty much taken on the idea of mass casualties. Unfortunately, there is nothing after that step. Its pointless.
'
You would think that after 30 years of terrorism, they would get the idea that it won't work...

General Zod
09-03-04, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by waveform
But you have to realize that many of these people see themselves as having nothing to lose. Suicide bombers are not going to get hung up on the morality of killing other people. That is part of the nature of a terrorist attack. It is meant to be horrific. They are not seeking sympathy, they are making a statement and seeking retribution.
I understand all that. So, if things are so bad for me that I become so depressed and full of hatred because of some stupid thing you did - it somehow becomes your fault if I decide to go crazy and start killing people? I still don't understand that part of it.

Pharoh
09-03-04, 10:40 PM
A few updates:


646 people, including 230 children, have been hospitalized. The number confirmed dead at this point still stands at 150. Sadly, that number is likely to considerably climb. Aslambek Aslakhanov, a senior Putin advisor, bluntly states the number killed could be far more than 150.

The Beslan school had an enrollment of 860 children according to reports. Since it was the first day of school and a great many parents and relatives were there, the high number of 1500 hostages total appears to be much closer to the truth than some of the earlier, smaller numbers.


The number of terrorists is believed now to be 40, give or take a couple. That number was quickly reduced by two, as two of the women terrorist blew themselves up, and some adult hostages with them, on Wednesday. Twenty-seven of the vile filth have now been confirmed killed, with eight killed on the school grounds, the others in the nearby area and towns. Ten of the dead are verified to be Arab. Only three are known to have been captured, as reported earlier.

The FSB is still maintaining that absolutely no military action was planned, as the whole situation just unraveled quickly. Doubts and anger in Russia and North Ossetia are begining to boil to the surface, much of it directed at President Putin. Meanwhile, Putin visited the Beslan hosptial early Saturday morning.

B.A.
09-03-04, 11:08 PM
I was practically crying after I saw ABC News' report from Beslan earlier this evening. The images they showed were horrible and haunting. :(

B.A.
09-03-04, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by VinVega
Combining all of our countries' forces against these animals would be a wonderful thing. I doubt it would happen, but it's a nice dream.

How should Russia proceed in the future now? Don't go hardline on the Chechen civilian population. That is not productive, considering the influence for these type of attacks comes from outside Chechnya. Try to win over the civilian population with government aid if you can.

God, when I see crap like this, I just pray that we can get off our dependence on Mid East oil. It's our own dollars flowing over there that fund this shit. Dry up their money sources and you'll go a long way to cutting the terrorists' influence on the globe. I guess that's just another dream of mine. :( I wholeheartedly agree w/ all three points, particularly the last one. :up:

VinVega
09-03-04, 11:12 PM
Pharoh, you mentioned that the Russians are powerless to prevent such actions. Is this because of poor intelligence? What's the solution for the military and the FSB?

DVD Polizei
09-03-04, 11:41 PM
FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.

Pharoh
09-04-04, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by VinVega
Pharoh, you mentioned that the Russians are powerless to prevent such actions. Is this because of poor intelligence? What's the solution for the military and the FSB?


Many factors are responsible for me making that statement, including:

Poor intelligence due to the loss of many top in-the-field agents, a severely hampered and limited intelligence budget, and a basic complacency leading to a failure to ultimately adapt to the new threat faced, is a major contributor to their inability.

Lack of sufficient funding for the miltary in modernisation efforts, both in equipment and in training, is another significant component. The Russian military is extremely poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly funded, and poorly motivated, particularly to fight this battle. Technology is severely lacking for most forces, including the technology of communication and coordination. If you think the lack of coordination between the FBI and CIA was bad, you would be appalled and the lack in Russia.

Further, many valuable resources and assets have been reallocated in the last five years to combat the growing hegemonistic desires and capabilities of regional neighboors such as Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Turkmenistan, and others, weakening and depleting Russian resources. Couple this with all of the many and constant conflicts raging in the FSU, from small contained ones like, Ajara, TransDnestr/Moldova, Georgia/Sout Ossetia, Ingushetia, as well as the major battle in Chechnya, and it becomes obvious that already limited capital, limited in regards to equipment, monetary, and human capital, are spread woefully thin. They simply don't have enough of anything to succeed.

Another major issue, which was touched upon somewhere earlier by eX is corruption. Russian security, border/immigration, and transportation forces are rife with it. It is incredibly easy for terrorists, or smugglers, or whomever, to go where they want to go, when they want to go there, and posing as whomever they wish to be. Russia has almost no accountability for those moving about in their varied regions.

Border security is another serious problem. In many areas, there is none. Parts of Russia, and the surrounding areas, have areas that make the United States' border seem as a walled-off maximum security prison. Terrorists can not only go where they want, they can move with them whatever they want, often with the aid of Russian citizens.

There are a couple of other reasons, such as societal ones relating to vigilance and acceptance, but I think the ones posted above sum up the basics of my thoughts and feelings. Unfortunately, Russia is a far cry from even the paper tiger she was at the end of the Cold War. She is outgunned and outmatched.


Which is why I somewhere else, (don't remember if it was this thread or the airliner one), vaguely alluded to the only real available option. That is, taking the battle someplace else, reframing the battle. Russia can not afford to wait to be hit again. They have to hit the terrorist where they truly are, they have to change the dynamics of the war, much like was attempted to be accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia must use what strength it has, still a powerful conventional military, to eliminate those attacking them on a now daily basis. If that means doing something in the Middle East, or a final battle against the likes of Basayev in Chechnya, then so be it. I don't think they ever will, but I honestly don't know what else they can do, except grin and bear it. Sad.


But of course, this is as always, just my humble opinon.

Pharoh
09-04-04, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.


Man, where have you been with this old news? ;)

Just kidding, and I agree. I am very anxious to hear what he has to say and do. I think the actions of the past day are some indication. He has to act and talk tough, not afraid to lose some, (many?), innocent lives, to further his political aims. Honestly, I think his talk will be far more blusterous than his action. I feel the people of Russia are going to give him a pass on this one.

VinVega
09-04-04, 12:20 AM
If you're going to take the fight to the terrorists ala (dare I say it Iraq - don't really like that example for numerous reasons, but work with me here), then you're looking at Saudi Arabia. This is the leading country with the Wahhabist movement. The US and the rest of the West would not accept Russia running roughshod all over Saudi Arabia. Where can they strike out with their military? You can't even take the fight to the arab terrorists in Chechnya since they'll just slip across the border to the south and you're screwed because you can't follow them. They are the main problem now, not the domestic Chechen fighters.

At any point does the West consider propping up the Russian regime, or assisting it militarily? The more bankrupt it becomes, the more likely that WMD will be sold to the black market and find their way into NYC or Washington's harbors. I think Russia needs the West more than it knows, but they're too stubborn to seek the help.

Mutley Hyde
09-04-04, 12:58 AM
Been out in the real world for a bit, and so had to catch up here. A few observations...

Originally posted by retihsuhnt
When I first heard this story I knew that it would be a repeat of the theater massacre last year.

Russians just dont seem to be able to get hostage situations 'right'. Hell Americans cant either, but we dont get death tolls in the 100s.

I feel bad for the families of the innocent victims, but damn Russia, this is your own fault.

More criticism with absolutely ZERO offering of any alternative. I'm getting tired of asking what you who would criticize hardline tactics would do otherwise, because all I get back is dead silence... and then the criticism starts up all over again. -ohbfrank-

Originally posted by waveform
...but, nobody gets to see the coffins. I guess the current administration doesn't want reminders of sacrifices.

Complete cheap shot. How long has it been Pentagon policy? It goes back way beyond 3 friggin' years, I know that much. [Thanks to OldDude for that excellent subsequest post which proved my assumption correct :up: ]

Originally posted by waveform
If it takes a ban on pictures that show what the domestic effects are, then you are hiding from reality.

Why are you and OldDude so ashamed of the soldiers that died? Why not recognize their sacrifice? Seems like no one had a problem when it was Tillman, and he got killed by his own guys.

Should we just not recognize all the non-NFL soldiers? Oh, I forgot, his sacrifice was bigger because he was going to be making more money. The dead reservsts who just worked for a living...well they should be happy that Ted Koppel read out their names.

Pathetic. Woefully pathetic. The only reason you want the pictures shown is to sensationalize the body count for your "U.S. OUT OF IRAQ!!" agenda. Plain and simple. Please don't insult my intelligence and try to spin it any other way, as you already have with this absolutely pathetic post. I am seriously ill after reading that obviously insincere post.


Originally posted by Pelayu
I don't know about U.S. but there was absolutely no so called cowboyism in the assault of the Russian special forces. Adults and children smashed windows and ran from the school after an unexpected bomb explosion (they say a lot of things: one of the bombs attached to the ceiling fell down and got detonated/ there was some split between the terrorists: some of them wanted to stay, others wanted to flee ...) and terrorists opened fire on them shooting in their backs indiscriminately. Return fire was opened by the Russian troops, thus, determining their further actions. Who knows what happened if the troops just let it be like it was? I'm still sure, though (and there are a lot of people who share the same opinion), Alfa should have launched the storm last night. But it is just another "what if".
Thank you for the clarification, Pelayu, and thank you for posting at all. We can seriously use your perspective here, it is more appreciated than I believe I can convey.

Myster X
09-04-04, 01:15 AM
Russia School Standoff Ends With 250 Dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20040904/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure

BESLAN, Russia - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials said the toll was at least 250.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.

Ranger
09-04-04, 01:21 AM
Why were some of the hostages naked? It wasn't enough to threaten them with bombs and such, they had to be humiliated too?

Debaser
09-04-04, 01:30 AM
I thought it was because it was too hot in the gymnasium esp. without water.

DVD Polizei
09-04-04, 01:34 AM
VinVega,

I seriously doubt the US has the balls to spearhead a massive terrorist hunt, and I would place my bets on Russia to do something original and worthwhile. Even when 9/11 happened, most terrorists fled into other surrounding countries. We never got OBL, and it took us 9 months to capture a complete idiot named Saddam. We suck at fighting terrorism.

I think the Middle East is more terrified of our withdrawal of monetary support, than they are of our military might.

The US is into fluffy war games, and in the meantime hundreds of US soldiers get killed for nothing.

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Debaser
I thought it was because it was too hot in the gymnasium esp. without water.

Yes, that is correct. I was able to watch all of Fox News when this story broke, tonight on my Tivo. The temperatures were in the mid 90's, so in the gymnasium where there were hundreds or over a thousand people, the temps had to be well over 100 degrees.

Then take into account that they didn't have any water for over 24 hours and they started to take off their clothes to be as cool as possible. It must have been VERY miserable in there.

Death was too good for the terrorists, but they will have their rewards in Hell.

Chris

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
VinVega,

I seriously doubt the US has the balls to spearhead a massive terrorist hunt, and I would place my bets on Russia to do something original and worthwhile. Even when 9/11 happened, most terrorists fled into other surrounding countries. We never got OBL, and it took us 9 months to capture a complete idiot named Saddam. We suck at fighting terrorism.

I think the Middle East is more terrified of our withdrawal of monetary support, than they are of our military might.

The US is into fluffy war games, and in the meantime hundreds of US soldiers get killed for nothing.


And I guarantee you that because of this, something really bad is going to happen on our soil again in the near future. Then we will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, wondering why it happened to us again.

The reason this will have happened, is because we didn't take out all of these guys when we should have. You can't tell me that the most powerful nation in the world, cannot take care of this problem. Sure we might step on some toes of the countries where these guys are hiding in (Pakistan, Iran, Syria, etc), but better that than seeing our innocent children die horrible deaths in their schools! :(

They are just like cockroaches. If you don't kill every last single one of them, their idealogy will continue to multiply. And believe me, there are thousands of young terrorist children right now, who would love to be in Paradise! Maybe they're too young to know about the 72 virgins ;), but they know about dying and are waiting for their chance.

Sorry, but the scenes on my tv tonight brought tears to my eyes and rage to my heart. And I'm a Christian!

Chris

DVD Polizei
09-04-04, 02:42 AM
Yeah, it's pretty sad when you live in one of the most powerful countries in the world, and an idiot who doesn't even have a high school education can waltz right into your backyard and wreak havoc on your life and kill those you love.

Maybe someday the US will wake up. But as you say, I definitely see at least a few simultaneous attacks on the US to make our leaders understand you cannot negotiate with terrorists--or their countries who represent them.

We have to ask ourselves if Fat Man and Little Boy created a more peaceful environment at the cost of lives. We need to start using our muscles fully extended.

DivxGuy
09-04-04, 02:57 AM
Exactly. Harris and Klebold had free reign of Columbine High, wandering the halls while the cops and SWAT twiddled their thumbs outside, afraid to do anything. Surprised it has happened since.For one thing, the police have changed their tactics since then. No more "seal off the area and wait for reinforcements."

Pelayu
09-04-04, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Pharoh

Pelayu,

Where are you from, if you don't mind?

Moscow, Russia :wave:

atlantamoi
09-04-04, 08:29 AM
I'm looking at the photos for the first time this morning. Absolutely heartbreaking. I'm at a loss for words trying to make any sense how another human could commit these acts.

OldDude
09-04-04, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Pharoh

Which is why I somewhere else, (don't remember if it was this thread or the airliner one), vaguely alluded to the only real available option. That is, taking the battle someplace else, reframing the battle. Russia can not afford to wait to be hit again. They have to hit the terrorist where they truly are, they have to change the dynamics of the war, much like was attempted to be accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia must use what strength it has, still a powerful conventional military, to eliminate those attacking them on a now daily basis. If that means doing something in the Middle East, or a final battle against the likes of Basayev in Chechnya, then so be it. I don't think they ever will, but I honestly don't know what else they can do, except grin and bear it. Sad.


You raise some great points, However, I am not sure taking the battle to the terrorists is an option for them. As you point out, they lack the resources and coordination for internal security. Many countries get themselves into trouble in war with long supply, inability to protect them, inadequate coordination, etc. A country weak in the technological resources and funding probably can't do it. Only the US has a miltary doctrine claiming to support the ability to wage major war on two far-flung fronts, and we are probably bluffing. This is also why Europe isn't a power, moreless a superpower. They really can't project power much beyond their own borders.

Pelayu
09-04-04, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Ranger
Why were some of the hostages naked? It wasn't enough to threaten them with bombs and such, they had to be humiliated too?

They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

Giantrobo
09-04-04, 08:49 AM
I'm so ready for this world to end....

:(

Pharoh
09-04-04, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave:


Thanks for the response. And even though you aren't necessarily new here, welcome to the forum! Yours thoughts and views are definitely most welcomed and appreciated. Thank You.

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Pelayu
They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

These poor children and teens are going to be scarred for life. This tells me that the terrorists had no compassion whatsoever for the young ones, not letting them have any water. Sure they let some of the moms and infants go, but they were just stalling for time.

As I watched Fox yesterday, one of the commentators said that the Russian government was not going to give in to any of their demands, so the terrorists mission was doomed to fail from the beginning and the terrorists themselves probably knew that from the start. So they probably expected that they would be killing a lot of children and young people and had already accepted that fact! :(

Chris

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 10:27 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

Over 300 killed in Russian school siege
Survivors tell of unspeakable horrors; Putin visits town

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040903/040903_hostages_hmed_530p.h2.jpg

A volunteer carries a small child after Russian special forces stormed a school seized by heavily armed masked men and women in the town of Beslan in the province of North Ossetia near Chechnya on Friday.

The Associated Press

Updated: 6:53 a.m. ET Sept. 4, 2004

BESLAN, Russia - Emergency workers on Saturday pulled more than 320 bodies out of a southern Russian school that had been held by heavily armed militants, a prosecutor said, and President Vladimir Putin accused the attackers of trying to spark an ethnic conflict that would engulf Russia's troubled Caucasus Mountains region.

The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky as saying 322 bodies, including those of 155 children, had been recovered from the school in Beslan. That raised the death toll well beyond the 250 officials had previously cited.

Putin ordered the borders of North Ossetia closed Saturday as security forces searched the southern region for militants who escaped .

'All Russia grieves'

At least 92 of 283 children hospitalized following the bloody and chaotic gunbattle Friday in the town of Beslan were listed in very grave condition. In all, some 531 people remained hospitalized. Many were said to have been killed or wounded when a roof collapsed from an explosion before the Russian assault of the building began.

“All Russia grieves with you,” Putin said during a visit to the scene Saturday, carried on government television. “Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children.”

Putin said he had ordered North Ossetia’s borders closed while officials searched for suspects in the hostage-taking, carried out by militants seeking independence for the nearby republic of Chechnya.

“One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said. “Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Valery Andreyev, Russia’s Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants killed. The Arab presence among the attackers would support Putin’s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were deeply involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces on and off for more than a decade.

Series of attacks

New evidence suggested the attack had been planned long beforehand. A regional security officer told the Interfax news agency that militants had smuggled the explosives and weapons into the school and hidden them under the floor during a renovation this summer. :eek:

The attack follows a suicide bomb attack outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday that killed eight people, and last week’s near-simultaneous crash of two Russian jetliners last week after what officials believe were explosions on board. Those attacks were also linked to the conflict in Chechnya.

Putin arrived with smoke still rising from the shattered school, just hours after the last scattered shooting died away. Emergency workers recovered 235 bodies, including those of 143 children, from the school on Saturday, regional health ministry officials at the site said.

On Friday, commandos stormed the building and battled militants as crying children, some half-naked and covered with blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. Other children lay dead on stretchers lined up outside.

Growing toll

Fatima Khabalova, spokeswoman for the North Ossetian parliament, confirmed that 250 people were known to be dead. About 200 of the dead are children, she told The Associated Press.

The republic’s deputy health minister, Taimuraz Revazov, said 80 bodies including those of 12 children were in the city morgue. It was unclear whether the morgue toll included any of the dead found in the school on Saturday.

Dozens of people crowded around lists of survivors posted at the Beslan hospital, searching desperately for news of loved ones who were not yet accounted for. A man showed hospital nurses a photograph — a young boy dressed in a suit, like he was going to a birthday party or holiday celebration.

“We run here, we run there, like we’re out of our minds, trying to find out anything we can about them,” said Tsiada Biazrova, 47, whose neighbors’ children had yet to be found.

The majority of the dead who were found in the gym were killed by explosions before the assault began, causing part of the roof to collapse, Interfax and the ITAR-Tass news agency said, citing North Ossetian police.

An explosives expert told NTV television that the hostage-takers, themselves strapped with explosives, hung bombs from basketball hoops in the gym and set other explosive devices in the building.

Militants opened fire on hostages

Russian authorities said they stormed the building after the militants set off explosions and fired shots as emergency teams approached to collect the bodies of several men killed earlier. They said the hostage-takers had given them permission to take the corpses away. Witnesses quoted by Russian media said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.

As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape. Commandos stormed into the building and secured it, then chased fleeing militants in the town, with shooting lasting for 10 hours.

Channel One TV reported three of the attackers were arrested after trying to escape in civilian dress. Four militants were believed to have escaped.

Fleeing hostages, many of them wounded, streamed from the building into the surrounding area and parents searched frantically for their children. Ambulances couldn’t carry all the injured and private cars were pressed into service.

The operation ended a 62-hour ordeal that began when masked gunmen burst into the school courtyard on Wednesday, shooting in the air and herding people into the gym.

The region’s governor, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday that the militants had demanded that Russian troops leave Chechnya — the first solid indication that the attack was connected to the rebellion.

Unspeakable horror

Hostages told of more than two days of unspeakable horror — of children so frightened they couldn’t sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill off hostages one by one. The gym where they were held was so cramped there was hardly room to move and so hot adults encouraged children to strip off their clothes.

When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their captors simply sneered, said Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who was taken captive with her 7-year-old son and mother, all three among the survivors.

“They were totally indifferent,” Gadieyeva said.

President Bush said the hostage siege was “another grim reminder” of the lengths to which terrorists will go. World governments joined Washington in condemning the militants.

Putin warned against letting the latest attack in North Ossetia stir up tensions in the multiethnic North Caucasus region. “One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said.

“Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Putin saw several of the hospitalized victims, stopping to stroke the head of one injured child and the arm of a woman.

Two emergency services workers were killed and three wounded, Interfax reported. Eighteen wounded commandos were being treated in a Defense Ministry hospital in the town of Vladikavkaz, the news agency reported, most of them with bullet wounds.

Intermittent negotiations led to the freeing of about 26 women and children on Thursday, and Russian officials and others had been in on-and-off contacts with the hostage-takers, but with few signs of progress toward a resolution.

Russian officials stressed that they had not planned to storm the school. The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities used force.

Two major hostage-taking raids by Chechen rebels outside the war-torn region in the past decade provoked Russian rescue operations that led to many deaths. The seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002 ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

In 1995 — during the first of two wars in Chechnya in the past decade — rebels led by guerrilla commander Shamil Basayev seized a hospital in the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk, taking some 2,000 people hostage. The six-day standoff ended with a fierce Russian assault, and some 100 people died.

Putin had said Thursday that everything possible would be done to end the “horrible” crisis and save the lives of the children and other hostages in this town of 35,000 people.


That picture just tears out my heart. Wow the explosives and weapons were planted well in advance. Putin's response so far, seems to be very weak!

Chris

Pharoh
09-04-04, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by OldDude
You raise some great points, However, I am not sure taking the battle to the terrorists is an option for them. As you point out, they lack the resources and coordination for internal security. Many countries get themselves into trouble in war with long supply, inability to protect them, inadequate coordination, etc. A country weak in the technological resources and funding probably can't do it. Only the US has a miltary doctrine claiming to support the ability to wage major war on two far-flung fronts, and we are probably bluffing. This is also why Europe isn't a power, moreless a superpower. They really can't project power much beyond their own borders.


And your points are very good, valid, and most likely, and unfortunately, correct. It is just so damn frustrating. It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Pharoh
It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

No they won't! Why, because it makes sense.

Chris

HistoryProf
09-04-04, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave:

Privyet :wave:

Pharoh
09-04-04, 12:39 PM
Some of President Putin's words spoken in Beslan:


It is a difficult and bitter task to speak. A horrid tragedy has happened in our land. Throughout the past few days, each of us has been suffering deeply and has been putting through their heart all that was happening in the Russian town of Beslan, where we came face to face not just with murderers but with people who were using weapons against defenseless children,

And now may I offer words of support and compassion primarily to people who have lost what was the most precious thing in their life. Their children, their near and dear.

I ask you to think of all those who have died at the hands of the terrorists in the past few days.

Myster X
09-04-04, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Pharoh
It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

China will join once the US allows them to take Taiwan. :lol:

Mutley Hyde
09-04-04, 01:07 PM
And now, for the Arab response...

School Siege Prompts Horror, Self-Criticism in Arab World (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB6UEBZPYD.html)
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Images of dead, wounded and traumatized Russian children being carried from the scene of a rebel school siege horrified Arabs, prompting forthright self-criticism Saturday and fresh concern about an international backlash against Islam and its followers.

Arab leaders, Muslim clerics and ordinary parents across the Middle East denounced the school siege that left more than 340 people dead, many of them children, as unjustifiable.

Some warned such actions damage Islam's image more than all its enemies could hope. Even some supporters of Islamic militancy condemned it, though at least one insisted Muslims were not behind it.

The hostage-takers were reportedly demanding the independence of the mostly Muslim Russian republic of Chechnya - a caused embraced by Arab Islamists. "Holy warriors" from the Middle East long have supported Chechen fighters, and Russian officials said nine or 10 Arabs were among militants killed when commandos stormed the Beslan school in southern Russia on Friday.

Middle East security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was too early to know the nationalities of the Arabs among the dead militants. However, a prominent Arab journalist wrote that Muslims must acknowledge the painful fact that Muslims are the main perpetrators of terrorism.

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which are influenced by the ideology of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader of the al-Qaida terror network.

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us."

Arab TV stations repeatedly aired footage of terrified young survivors being carried from the school siege scene, while pictures of dead and wounded children ran on front pages of Saturday's newspapers in the region.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist and columnist for Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, wrote that the images "showed Muslims as monsters who are fed by the blood of children and the pain of their families."

"If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote.

Other Islamists were more cautious in their criticism.

Mohammed Mahdi Akef, leader of Egypt's largest Islamic group, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, said the siege did not fit the Islamic concept of "jihad," or holy war, but took care not to characterize it as terrorism.

"What happened ... is not jihad because our Islam obligates us to respect the souls of human beings," Akef said. "Real jihad should target occupiers of our lands only like the Palestinian and Iraqi resistance."

Ali Abdullah, a Bahraini religious scholar who follows the ultraconservative Salafi stream of Islam, condemned the school attack as "un-Islamic" but insisted Muslims weren't behind it.

"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.

Some contributors to Islamic Web sites known for their extremist content praised the separatists and predicted the Islamic fighters from Egypt would avenge the killings of Muslims elsewhere.

Syria condemned the hostage-taking "in the harshest terms," describing it as "a terrorist, cowardly action," the state-run SANA news agency said.

"As a father, I can tell you that all the fathers and mothers in Jordan pray humbly to God to stand by their counterparts in Russia in their grief," Jordan's King Abdullah II, whose wife is expecting their fourth child, said on state-run television.

Mona Khalil, a 48-year-old secretary in Amman, said her heart ached at the sight of the frightened children and their weeping relatives.

"What on earth were the kidnappers thinking about when they took the children hostage?" she asked. "These criminals don't fear God? They have no mercy in their hearts? They don't have children?"

Mohammed Saleh Ebrahim, a 31-year-old Bahraini who was back-to-school shopping in the Gulf island nation with his two daughters, described the hostage-takers as "worse than animals."

"It's because of these people Muslims and Arabs are getting a bad name around the world," he said.

Optimist P.O.V = "This is what we need to hear from the Arab/Muslim community, and more of it, more often."

Pessimist P.O.V. = "Well, what the hell else are they going to say?"

I actually hold both opinions.

Myster X
09-04-04, 01:20 PM
yet, somehow the Jews are responsible.
rotflrotfl

Mutley Hyde
09-04-04, 01:37 PM
Well, of course. :)

Pharoh
09-04-04, 02:46 PM
The official death toll is now up to 330 innocents. Another 69 individuals, many children, are still listed in critical condition.


:(

Mutley Hyde
09-04-04, 02:56 PM
-sigh- :(

Have they come to a conclusion as to just how many were in there total yet, or did I miss it?

kvrdave
09-04-04, 02:59 PM
"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.


On to the next attack, in other words.

OldDude
09-04-04, 03:07 PM
Damn, Abdullah, those Jews for Chechnya struck again.

Ranger
09-04-04, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Pelayu
They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

I thought about that but I didn't think it would be that warm since I consider Russia to be typically cold. But I guess with a range of ten time zones, the temperature can vary significantly for different territories.

It is pretty terrible. I can't imagine going through that. :(

mrpayroll
09-04-04, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by kvrdave
"I have no doubt in my mind that this is the work of the Israelis who want to tarnish the image of Muslims and are working alongside Russians who have their own agenda against the Muslims in Chechnya," said Abdullah.


On to the next attack, in other words.

When I first started reading what you had posted there, I thought it was your attempt at a sick joke (sorry), then I saw that this was actually said by someone (Abdullah) (Satan)! :(

Chris

Mutley Hyde
09-04-04, 08:38 PM
Come on folks, that's just one guy. ;)

RandyC
09-04-04, 11:28 PM
retihsuhnt, make your point without attacking the other person. This is a warning to calm down before posting.

Myster X
09-05-04, 01:07 AM
I wonder how will this guy fare in the next election.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/17/russia.elex.01/link.zyuganov.jpg

Pharoh
09-05-04, 09:06 AM
I don't think being a communist and against action in Chechnya is going to win him many votes right now.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 09:11 AM
Official death toll up to 338, with some reports claiming 270 of the victims have been indentified. There are still close to 200 people on missing lists.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 10:43 AM
:(

After reading many more details of the events at the conclusion of this tragedy, it is becoming more and more painfully obvious how badly Russian forces messed up, adding unnecessarily to the loss of life. Their "special" forces, including the Alpha Team, were anything but special. I desparately hope they take up some of the offers for assistance they've been given, including the Australian one, so they can do something about this, and learn how to not let this happen again like it did.

Pelayu
09-05-04, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by retihsuhnt
Hey, Ill put it in simple terms for you: THE RUSSIANS F$%#ED UP! IS THAT BETTER? I didnt include your holy Americans.

Yes, we fucked up. There were a lot of people around the school (civilians who had their children or relatives there ) who instead of rushing inside the building and making up a mess, had to stay where they were. The authorities should have controlled this crowd. Moreover, what were they doing there at all? Police should have set up a much larger perimeter. Logically, neither police nor troops had to intervene [shoot]. It was their fault. Everybody of them had to make way for Alfa commandos but they just complicated the work of the antiterror group, which in it's turn shouldn't have rescued anybody. That's is not what they were sent for. Result: Alfa commandos, troops and local police with the children in their hands all in the same blood bath shooting each other. Lack of coordination? No. It is the apotheosis of idiocy.
Of course, criticizing is always much easier, but, hey, they should have had a plan. According to what I saw, what I read and what I was said, there was no plan at all. Even if the authorities don't think for a minute about the assault, men who are in charge of it, shouldn't waste their time.

Pelayu
09-05-04, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Pharoh
I don't think being a communist and against action in Chechnya is going to win him many votes right now.

Not a single chance for this freakin' rudiment to win anything here. :D Extreme pro-Western activists or democrats leaning towards aggressive foreign policy (also known here as dermocrats meaning shitcrats)are also unlikely to come to power. Or it will be parties of moderated (liberal) democracy who consider Russia as independent of anybody else and a self-sufficient power or nationalistically oriented parties (latently or not).

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Pelayu
Not a single chance for this freakin' rudiment to win anything here. :D Extreme pro-Western activists or democrats leaning towards aggressive foreign policy (also known here as dermocrats meaning shitcrats)are also unlikely to come to power. Or it will be parties of moderated (liberal) democracy who consider Russia as independent of anybody else and a self-sufficient power or nationalistically oriented parties (latently or not).


Are there fears in Russia that Putin, who has already blamed this tragedy on the fall of the Soviet Union and outside foreign forces looking to tear Russia apart, as well as on Russian weakness and unpreparedness, will use this horrific event to suppress liberties even more than he has, and completely consolidate his power? Are any worried that he will play on the vulnerabilities of the Russian people for personal gain?

Or, is that assessment completely lacking? Will he be looked at simply as the only man to get complete the task?

Pelayu
09-05-04, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.

First they said three of them were captured alive, then one of the officials denied this info saying that everybody got killed in the assault. Nonetheless, several witnesses assured they saw special forces agents convoy one of the terrorists along the dead bodies of his fellows. He is said to have been identifying them. Maybe they just killed all the captives without trial...but it is very unlikely.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:42 AM
Another question, if you don't mind.

What the hell is wrong with the tv stations over there? Showing damn soap operas, (if I have the type of show correct), instead of following the storming of the school. I don't get it.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Pelayu
First they said three of them were captured alive, then one of the officials denied this info saying that everybody got killed in the assault. Nonetheless, several witnesses assured they saw special forces agents convoy one of the terrorists along the dead bodies of his fellows. He is said to have been identifying them. Maybe they just killed all the captives without trial...but it is very unlikely.


Also strange are the conflicting reports regarding the number of vile scum involved in the attack. Minister Dzgoyev claims 35 were involved, and all killed, while Deputy Prosecutor Fridinsky states that 32 were originally involved, with 30 of them being accounted for and identified.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 12:42 PM
An official from the morgue in North Ossetia's capital claims the death toll sits at 394. Just completely sickening. :mad:


And while it's not widespread, the criticism of Putin has been blistering, including that coming from the people of Beslan.

BJacks
09-05-04, 12:56 PM
I'd be interested in learning more about the current state of Russia's "Special Forces." I imagine under the Soviet Union they had some of the world's best. Are they no longer up to the badass-ness of Rambo 3?

mike45
09-05-04, 03:14 PM
The Peruvian special forces successfully liberated the Japanese embassy from terrorists a few years ago, with only one hostage being killed. The Peruvian soldiers killed all the terrorists. They also had to assault a multifloor building. I wonder what did go wrong with the Russian operation.

DVD Polizei
09-05-04, 03:20 PM
These terrorists at the Japanese Embassy, who were MRTA, were TOTALLY different than the ones at the Russia school. The only similarity was that they wanted their peers freed from prison. :)

The MRTA's intention was not to kill most of their hostages. The proof was how long this hostage crisis lasted (about 4 months). They wanted to convey their grievances. The MRTA also released 378 of the 450 hostages.

This is behavior MUCH unlike our terrorist shitheads at the Beslan school. I've never seen Muslim Terrorists last 4 months, let alone 4 days, in a hostage stand-off. If they really wanted their peers released from prison, they would have let their captives eat and drink water, and the hostage negotiations would have lasted a lot longer.

Muslim Terrorists usually want to kill hostages more than they want to express their political desires--which brings us to a very interesting crossroad here. The MRTA at the Japanese Embassy expressed political means, which is "true" terrorism. Terrorism is the result of political needs not met.

But in the case of Muslim Terrorists, what exactly is their goal? It seems as if they just want to kill for the fun of it. They get off on it. They have no real political goals in mind. Their goals are mostly twisted religious beliefs.

This is why I put Muslim Terrorists into a totally different category of terrorism than other terrorists. They all have an uncommon unsatiable desire to kill. If they did have any political desires, it's downplayed by their violence and hatred towards their captives who will eventually die. I mean, if any of us were to get held hostage by a Muslim Terrorist, you should be aware your chances of living are 10% or less. Fight back as quickly and deadly as you can, because most likely, you will die within a short period of time.
---

As to having a few terrorists alive in custody, indeed they do. Whatever they say after the fact is just cover so they can torture these guys until they are dead. Which is fine with me..

OldDude
09-05-04, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by mike45
The Peruvian special forces successfully liberated the Japanese embassy from terrorists a few years ago, with only one hostage being killed. The Peruvian soldiers killed all the terrorists. They also had to assault a multifloor building. I wonder what did go wrong with the Russian operation.

Well, if we believe the story we've been told, it wasn't a time of their choosing. Some explosion went off, whether accidental or intentional, some hostages used the confusion to try to escape, the terrorists began shooting them in the back, Russian troops returned fire.

That pretty well committed them to an assault on the building when they hadn't planned on it.

Now that story may in fact be untrue, but I haven't seen in refuted yet. Successful special ops are always at a time of their choosing when everything is ready, everyone knows the drill. This was a cluster fuck.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by BJacks
I'd be interested in learning more about the current state of Russia's "Special Forces." I imagine under the Soviet Union they had some of the world's best. Are they no longer up to the badass-ness of Rambo 3?


It is very debateable whether they ever were extremely skilled and proficient, but clearly most of the fame and reknown they are accorded are due to actions conducted in the late 1970s and early to mid 1980s. (One unit was not founded until 1981).

The collapse of the Soviet Empire and, more importantly, the reign of Yeltsin, during whose time two significant events relating to the Spetsnaz took place, did much to severely weaken Russian special forces.

Despite the fact that the best and brightest of the forces left in 1993, and the fact that the focus and structure of the Special units were repeatedly changed, Russia insists that the Spetsnaz are as capable and effective as ever. Their record since 1993 would indicate otherwise.

DVD Polizei
09-05-04, 04:39 PM
I have to agree with Pharoh, that Russian Terrorist Forces are not as up to their normal standard as they used to be. Putin even says as much in his address to the Russian nation.

I think the reason in particular for Spetsnaz not being as capable is because the countries who split-off from the USSR integrated their troops as Spetsnaz--even though these troops had no training or expertise like their original Spetsnaz troops.

mrpayroll
09-05-04, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Fight back as quickly and deadly as you can, because most likely, you will die within a short period of time.
---



:thumbsup:

As I pray to Jesus! ;)

Chris

chanster
09-05-04, 06:58 PM
These folks were highly trained for this - they had brought dogs, gas masks, etc. They weren't going to give up without a major fight and lots of casualties.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/international/europe/05CND-TERR.html
nside the charred, bullet-pocked wreckage of Middle School No. 1 lies evidence of the terror Russia faces: two parts of the library's wooden floor had been pried up, evidently by the heavily armed attackers who seized the school and held 1,000 hostages for 52 hours.

Beneath the schools first-floor library, investigators now suspect, the attackers had secreted a cache of weapons or other equipment weeks, perhaps months before their brutal attack, possibly during a seemingly innocuous summer renovation, officials said.

While investigators have only begun to piece together the details of the worst act of terror to strike Russia, the holes in the library's floor, which might easily be overlooked in the gruesome carnage of the school, underscored the sophistication and coordination that has accompanied the radicalization of the attacks that have convulsed the country.

The attackers — said to include Chechens, Ingush, ethnic Russians and some still-unidentified foreigners — followed a plan after the school's seizure with precision and alacrity, forcing their hostages to help place explosives and build barricades. They wore NATO-issued camouflage. They carried gas masks, compasses and first-aid kits, communicated with hand-held radios and brought along two sentry dogs, apparently as expertly trained as the attackers themselves.

"They knew the geography of the school grounds like their own backyard," the chief spokesman for Russia's Federal Security Service, Sergei N. Ignatchenko, said in a telephone interview on Saturday. "This allowed them to choose sniper positions and place booby-traps on all possible access routes."

The depth of planning evident in the horrifying siege, which by today's official count left 338 hostages dead, mirrored that of a series of attacks that have roiled Russia, beginning with a similar siege of a Moscow theater during a performance of a musical called "Nord-Ost" in October 2002 and continuing through a grim litany of suicide bombings and other strikes that culminated with shocking brutality here last week.

Like Al Qaeda's militants, which President Vladimir V. Putin and others argue provide succor to Chechnya's separatists, the extremists believed to be behind all attacks have managed to dispatch cells of ideologues who spend extended periods organizing and carrying out spectacular, unnerving attacks, often suicidal ones.

The attackers — believed to be members of a contingent led by Shamil Basayev, Chechnya's most notorious and lethal rebel commander — have moved seamlessly between the North Caucasus and Moscow, while evading Russia's extensive, if at times ineffective, security apparatus. They have so despite particular scrutiny that falls on anyone appearing to be Chechen.

In February, a female suicide bomber, possibly with an accomplice, destroyed a Moscow subway car, killing at least 41 early-morning commuters. In May, a bomb planted beneath a stadium grandstand killed Chechnya's president, Akhmad Kadyrov, as he watched a Victory Day parade in Grozny. In June, hundreds of insurgents used stolen uniforms of the local police to seize much of Ingushetia's capital for hours, stopping and executing the real police officers who raced to reinforce their colleagues, killing nearly 100.

On Aug. 21, fighters carried out a similar raid in Grozny, with similar tactics, killing at least 22. Three days later, bombs believed to be carried by two Chechen women destroyed separate passenger airliners simultaneously, killing 90 people. A week later, a female suicide blew herself up outside the Rizhskaya subway station in Moscow, killing 10. Hours after that the siege in Beslan began.

"They have shown they are able to do everything they want in each corner of Russia," said Aleksei Malashenko, an analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center.

chanster
09-05-04, 07:12 PM
Russian state-run television says the government has a man in custody who was part of the group responsible for the deadly school siege in Beslan.

The network showed footage of the man, whose name was not given, being heavily guarded by commando forces.

The suspect, who spoke on camera, proclaimed his innocence.

"Of course I pitied the children, I swear to Allah. I have children myself. I didn't shoot. I swear to Allah," he said. "I don't want to die. I swear to Allah, I want to live."

No information was provided as to when and where the suspect was taken into custody.

Cool Kitten
09-05-04, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Pelayu
Moscow, Russia :wave: hey, cool, i was born in Leningrad :)
I'm surely late for discussions, but i read on kp.ru last night that one of the terrorists was beaten to death by the citizens.
And there were eyewitnesses accounts of how they executed the males and were shooting the running children in the backs.
And how the kids had to drink urine because there was no water.
What i wonder is- the terrorists must've known what kind of reaction they would get from Russians for going after children. Is this another provocation? Are they trying to instigate more bloodshed? They must know that Russians will retaliate.

DVD Polizei
09-05-04, 09:42 PM
CK,

Not sure if you read my post a few days ago, but I said that these terrorists most likely were NOT planning to leave the building, and were going to blow up the school with everyone in it. Their behavior was more suicidal than it was political, which tells me the obvious of their intentions.

These guys (and a few gals) wanted to send a message more than they wanted to have their peers released from prison.

I think this is certainly a provocation, and as we all know how these sick people operate, they will claim to be victims once Putin starts to initiate his military. Muslim Terrorists are cowards. They love to kill men, women, and children who can't fight back but when faced equally with those carrying just as much lethal force, they run and hide like the cockroaches they are related to.

These people are disgusting and leave a really bad taste in my mouth.

Cool Kitten
09-05-04, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Pelayu
Of course, criticizing is always much easier, but, hey, they should have had a plan. According to what I saw, what I read and what I was said, there was no plan at all. i don't think they expected the terrorists to start killiing children. It seems they were trying to avoid the shoot-out and get the children out without the bloodshed.

Cool Kitten
09-05-04, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
CK,

Not sure if you read my post a few days ago, but I said that these terrorists most likely were NOT planning to leave the building, and were going to blow up the school with everyone in it. Their behavior was more suicidal than it was political, which tells me the obvious of their intentions.

These guys (and a few gals) wanted to send a message more than they wanted to have their peers released from prison. no, haven't read the whole thread- haven't had time.
I wonder why they didn't blow it rup ight away though- they could've killed way more people. Also, look at the scum begging for his life and saying how he felt bad for children -rolleyes-
Me, i would very slowly torture him to death just to send a message.

chanster
09-05-04, 09:50 PM
You blow it up right away, you get no publicity.

DVD Polizei
09-05-04, 09:51 PM
(Chanster beat me to it somewhat)

CK,

They wanted the world as their "captive" audience for a while.

They also wanted to give the media enough time to swarm around the place and they also wanted time to get themselves dug-in to prevent ANY kind of successful hostage rescue.

These guys were pretty smart. They knew they had to act quickly because the knew Russian forces would take seige their hostage location if they didn't set up a perimeter.

What is not known for sure, is if the terrorists detonated the building, causing the roof to collapse. What I think happened, but I don't for sure, is that some hostages got away--it's inevitable with such a hostage-to-terrorist ratio, and some terrorists went after them (dumb idea on the terrorist's part), which caused the perimeter to be breached from the inside.

Russian forces were very keen on noticing this and took their chance to get in.

Russian forces could have initiated the attack, but I really doubt it. It was very early into the hostage crisis, and I am pretty sure Putin told everyone to sit still until a firm plan was made.

One thing you can always count on, is the unforeseeable and unplanned. The hostages who got loose may have actually initiated a domino effect which saved lives. I think everyone was about to be killed if time went on.

Myster X
09-05-04, 09:52 PM
wrap them in pigskin

OldDude
09-05-04, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Cool Kitten
Also, look at the scum begging for his life and saying how he felt bad for children -rolleyes-
Me, i would very slowly torture him to death just to send a message.

I suspect he'll be crying for his mommie long before the Russians are done asking questions.

Ranger
09-05-04, 10:09 PM
It looks like they setup many individual crude bombs. Not all of them went off. There were quite some confusion and chaos. The terrorists probably did set off some bombs - I think they said one was on the roof, which may or not have caused the collapse, but apparently they were more focused on making an escape and killing anyone in their way. I still wish the forces had been adequately prepared and stormed the school much sooner, but I guess it wouldn't have been the popular strategy no matter what the results were.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 10:39 PM
There is growing debate now as to whom actually is responsible, with an increasing number of people attributing some part of the atrocity to North Ossetians. There are also new questions as to whether or not explosives and weapons were planted in the school prior to the attack. Many don't believe they were, rather that individuals, Islamists, from within the Beslan area helped the terrorists.

What I posted a couple of days ago now appears to be what happened. When security forces entered to remove some bodies, while the terrorists were simultaneously growing despondent, some hostages tried to make a break for it. Either the escaping hostages, or the terrorist in pursuit, accidentally set off some of the many trip-wires in the gymnasium causing the initial explosions. Pandemonium then ensued. More hostages made a break for it, more bombs went off, the terrorists began both indiscriminantly shooting and trying to escape, security forces entered with firefights ensuing, and many armed townspeople forced their way into the school grounds in an attempt to take matter into their own hands. Of course, this greatly worsened the situation. Frankly, I don't think we will ever know what truly happened, either about who the scum were, or the true cause of the final outcome.

What we do know for certain, is that Russian forces screwed up majorly. Another example: many members of the "famed" Al'fa team were not even present when the siege started. They didn't arrive until almost thirty minutes after the shooting started!! Unbelievable! And how the hell can you be incompetent enought that you allow ordinary armed citizens to become vigilantes, thereby enormously complicating matters, leading to more deaths than necessary?

I will also ask one more time. Why is everyone so sure that Russia will truly retaliate? They usually don't. Besides, doesn't this go to the dirty little secret that nobody in Moscow wants to discuss? I earlier asked about the tv viewing habits of those in Moscow, that should give some clue. Sad in every way.
:(

DVD Polizei
09-05-04, 10:54 PM
Well we could start another thread. This one is getting quite big. :)

Btw, I'm starting a terrorist forum in case you're interested Pharoh. I'd like to have you as a member. This invitation goes to many others as well.

chanster
09-05-04, 11:06 PM
What we do know for certain, is that Russian forces screwed up majorly. Another example: many members of the "famed" Al'fa team were not even present when the siege started. They didn't arrive until almost thirty minutes after the shooting started!!

So? It sounds to me like they weren't planning on assaulting the building. Something happened, the bombs starting going off and the shit hit the fan.

The people that are responsible are the terrorists.

How can Russia retaliate? Invade Checyna again? What good will that do?

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
Well we could start another thread. This one is getting quite big. :)

Btw, I'm starting a terrorist forum in case you're interested Pharoh. I'd like to have you as a member. This invitation goes to many others as well.


Absolutely. Just let me know when you are ready, and what I need to do. Thanks for the invite.

Cool Kitten
09-05-04, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Pharoh
Why is everyone so sure that Russia will truly retaliate? They usually don't. :( even if Russia won't the people will. The vigilante justice is ingrained into Russian culture. I can't shake it off even after living in US for 14 years :lol:

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by chanster
So? It sounds to me like they weren't planning on assaulting the building. Something happened, the bombs starting going off and the shit hit the fan.

The people that are responsible are the terrorists.

How can Russia retaliate? Invade Checyna again? What good will that do?


First, let me state clearly who I hold responsible for this tragedy, the evil terrorist scum. I wish all of them, all of their supporters, all of their enablers and sympathizers dead. They are a scourge who need to be eradicated.

I posted many thoughts on what Russia can do, what they should do. There is no need to discuss that further right now.

However, that does not excuse Russia's actions in this mess. Children died, many unecessarily. Righteousness and strategic correctness take a back seat to the lives of the children. The fact of the mater is, despite Russia's plan to not attack the school, Russian forces were ill-prepared. It is inexcusable to allow citizens that close, to allow them to become intrinsically involved, involved to the point of interfering and harming the rescue efforts. It is inexcusable that the area was not effectively cordoned off, which prolonged the horror after the siege began, and perhpas permitted some murderers to escape. And it is inexcusable that Russia was not fully prepared to deal with this outcome, even after three days. Not prepared to the point that the elite unit specifically created for these situations was not fully deployed or at ready battle stations. They should have been, they all should have accounted for this scenario. If they were, lives likely would have been saved. That is why it matters.

Pharoh
09-05-04, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Cool Kitten
even if Russia won't the people will. The vigilante justice is ingrained into Russian culture. I can't shake it off even after living in US for 14 years :lol:


Perhaps, but I hope not. The people are not prepared. I fear many more will die who don't have to if this were to happen.

Also keep in mind, (though you clearly know better than all of us), Ossetians are not Russians.

Cool Kitten
09-05-04, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Pharoh
Also keep in mind, (though you clearly know better than all of us), Ossetians are not Russians. no, they're worse ;)
The closer you get to the South part of Russia , the more prone to violence and intolerance the cultures become.

wm lopez
09-06-04, 12:13 AM
If Russia was still communist would the terrorists have even attempted this?

Bushdog
09-06-04, 12:15 AM
Well what was Putin's comment? That they got attacked because Russia is now weak since the Soviet Union was broken up. He's certainly suggesting a new geo-political structure.

Original Desmond
09-06-04, 12:17 AM
ok well over 300 dead

I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers

I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure

If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?

I reckon around 100

Myster X
09-06-04, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by wm lopez
If Russia was still communist would the terrorists have even attempted this?

probably not

Cool Kitten
09-06-04, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Original Desmond
ok well over 300 dead

I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers

I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure

If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?

I reckon around 100 the total is 335 to be exact.
The people who died were killed by terrorists- ome were executed while still in the building, and some were shot whil trying to escape. I'm sure some died from other problems (i read that there were some diabetic patients without food or water there).
However, the chaos that ensued when locals got involved probably cost lives.

DVD Polizei
09-06-04, 02:53 AM
I think most hostages were dead before Russian forces even began to enter the building.

Original Desmond, the hostages actually tripped the mines and explosives as they escaped.

The terrorists may have thought Russian forces were coming IN the building and just began killing everyone and detonating themselves, not realizing the hostages were getting OUT.

Soon after, hostages were in fact shot and killed while trying to escape and then Russian forces moved-in.

B.A.
09-06-04, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by Cool Kitten
no, they're worse ;)
The closer you get to the South part of Russia , the more prone to violence and intolerance the cultures become. Stalin, for instance.

jarsim
09-06-04, 06:27 AM
With children myself, I've only skimmed through a handful of the messages here, the story itself is incomprehensible and deeply heartbreaking to anyone like myself.

In the defense of Russians, the super-hero American "we could have done it better" response I've read in this thread sounds completely idiotic to me, the same type of outcome Bush has counted on in the catastrophe in Iraq.

This was a complete lose-lose situation for everyone involved.

To distance myself from being anti-Bush, let me say that the inaction of pre-war France, and terrorism-influenced post-war Spain and the Phillipines have directly made these situations inevitable and unavoidable. Let's expect these situations to not be unimaginable in the near future. I also would like to note of the coddling of terrorists by French politicians of reminding evil men with threat of murder that they did not support the attack on Iraq (while ignoring that this extremism that the US is fighting exists outside of this knowledge)

NOTE that France has learned its own lesson recently, that being cowardly does not escape extremism. Would the US, take the bitch role that France does, should we remind with the next US civilian kidnapped, that the US does not ban the headwraps of Muslim women in school?

I'm in the middle here, anti-Bush and anti-leftist Europe. There's a middle ground to politics, which have been made extreme by Bush and Western Europe TOGETHER. Let's not place all the blame on Bush, I lived and worked throughout Western Europe, anti-Americanism was at its boiling point just as Bush came into office. The Anti-Bush, anti-Americanism of Europe has only boosted Bush's chances for re-election.

Michael Moore, a pariah now in discussion of politics, has given fuel to the anti-American fire in Europe. Really this film should have been for Americans and only Americans. We do take American criticism of Americans better from ourselves than anyone else, and after living in Europe this is well-justified. Europe cannot be trusted. France is the proverbial wolf in sheeps-clothing... Europe (especially France) tries to paint itself as pacifist, philanthropic as the representative of the real nature of humanity when they are just as evil, just as money-hungry, power-hungry...completely jealous of the power that the US wields.

But am I the minority of those who haven't chosen sides (Bush or Kerry) ?
Although I must admit Kerry is about a deadlock for me, as he is the 'lesser of two evils'. Bush, to me, does do more harm than good.

chanster
09-06-04, 09:57 AM
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/09/06/international/plot.jpg



Channel One via Associated Press
A man called a Beslan raider was shown on Russian TV on Sunday

Pharoh
09-06-04, 10:05 AM
jarsim,

This post is completely out of place and inappropriate. Nobody is politicizing this issue, nor should you. Doing so minimises the loss suffered by hundreds of innocents. American's choices for President have no place here.

Nor is anybody talking about America as superheroes. The only poster that even mentioned America doing better isn't even an American, but rather an Australian who is very critical of the current administration.

Now if you are arguing that Russia themselves did or didn't make mistakes that led to unnecessary loss of life, and wish to debate that point, fine. Of course, that view runs contrary to almost everything that everybody involved in Russia is saying, but it is your choice.

Regardless, please refrain from posting about US-European relations, or the US Presidential elections here. There are already far too many thread for those topics.



On topic:

Many of the dead have now been buried, as mass funerals are taking place. Included in those laid to rest, are two rescue workers who rushed into the school in an attempt to save the lives of the children while being constantly shot at. They are true Ossetian heroes. No, they are simply heroes.
:(

OldDude
09-06-04, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Original Desmond
ok well over 300 dead

I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers

I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure

If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?

I reckon around 100

Maybe if we initiated the assault at a time of our choosing, when we were completely ready. Here it looks like the shit hit the fan and they had to go in chaotically. No one does well then.

Now, it might be fair to say they should have an assault plan ready to be triggered by any outbreak of violence. That might be fair, but the outcome would not be as good as coordinated assault that takes enemy by surprise, since the enemy has started the violence.

Pharoh
09-06-04, 10:10 AM
The Russian Prosecutor General Office has claimed they are certain that some of the murderers also participated in the June Ingushetia raids, and are concretely linked to Basayev. This has been reported upon in here, but now confirmation is starting to come out.


Relatedly, someones asked if invading Chechnya again would do anything. I don't think so, but I sure as hell know that killing the bastard basayev will do something. He needs to die.

Th0r S1mpson
09-06-04, 10:11 AM
If the bombs in the gym went off and the roof fell (before Russian troops entered the building) and killed about 200 people right there, are people still holding these deaths against "Russian incompetence?"

I don't think it was handled entirely the way it should have been. But the people responsible for this aren't the Russians, nor would I have expected them to do better. Given the number of people we now know were held, the threats that were made, and the conditions inside, I would have predicted far more deaths.

What sucks is that even one of these people dieing in such a situation would have felt tragic. More than 300 is just hard to comprehend.

mrpayroll
09-06-04, 02:03 PM
http://www.local6.com/news/3709008/detail.html?treets=orlpn&tid=2654577325813&tml=orlpn_12pm&tmi=orlpn_12pm_3176_10550009062004&ts=H

Russia Mourns Victims Of School Massacre

POSTED: 11:08 am EDT September 6, 2004
UPDATED: 11:16 am EDT September 6, 2004

BESLAN, Russia -- Russians stunned by last week's school hostage siege observed a national day of mourning Monday for the more than 350 people killed.

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0906/3708982.jpg
AP Image
Interior of classroom at school after siege in Russia.


In Beslan, townspeople crowded around the coffins of the victims -- many of them children.

Some 120 burials are scheduled Monday in the town cemetery and adjoining fields.

At the school where the victims died, people lit candles and created shrines with children's notebooks, shoes, and bottles of water -- symbolizing the water hostages were denied during the siege.

There was mounting criticism of the government's handling of the hostage-taking.

Some commentators said officials underestimated the magnitude of the crisis. But they stopped short of blaming Russian President Vladimir Putin.

On Saturday, Putin criticized Russia's law enforcement agencies for failing to rise to the challenge of terrorism.


Chris

DVD Polizei
09-06-04, 04:19 PM
This is taken from Pravda.ru today:

"What needs to be changed in the work of special services

Russian special services ought to learn certain lessons from the tragedy in Beslan. Some of the lessons appear quite obvious already. Not only should the FSB staff and members of the Ministry of Internal Affairs be aware of them, but common Russian citizens have to be informed as well.

Lesson N1. Militants have to used intelligently

Russian official law enforcement structures came face to face with something rather unusual while in Beslan. Men, whose children and relatives had been kept hostage inside the building, picked up guns in order to prevent the rebels from escaping. According to some sources however, those armed civilians had been actually preparing to storm the school building. Most likely, as soon as two bombs had exploded, they were the first ones to approach the building to cover up the children who were running away from school. Special services men had to chase after the armed civilians. They"ve lost their main advantage: suddenness. They failed to act at the speed of light. So basically, the so-called militiamen had hindered the work of the real professionals.

Since no one can guarantee at this point that there will be no new hostages capturing situations in North Caucasus, it would probably be good to think about how such spontaneous actions could be used.

-It was impossible to disarm those civilians; it could have lead to typical street fight between militia and civilians, -states one of the FSB officials in Beslan, - those armed civilians could have been used intelligently. For instance, they could have been for cordoning off the crowed from the epicenter as well as preventing the rebels from fleeing. Obviously, they had to have a specially appointed commander to keep everything under control.

One should also think about military insignia to enable special service members distinguish ordinary civilians from armed bandits.

Lesson N2. Field hospitals beat Ambulances

Military operation at the Theater center on Dubrovka (Moscow) gave rise to an interesting discussion on the pages of the Russian newspaper "Izvestia." The main argument concerned the following fact: whether the victims should have been transported to hospitals or helped right there in field hospitals. Those in support of the evacuation used to say that there was no need for field hospitals in the downtown Moscow. According to them, the victims had been provided with professional medical assistance in hospitals.

Those who are in support of field hospitals are military doctors in most cases. Judging by their experience, precious time had been lost during the evacuation. Ambulances, in their opinion, mainly functioned as taxis that simply transported people to the local hospitals.

Storm of the school in Beslan was indeed spontaneous. There was drastic shortage of Ambulances and people had to be transported to clinics in ordinary autos. However, many children were treated right on spot in field hospital arranged by the Ministry of Emergency Situations of the Russian Federation. It was only after people received first aid in those field hospitals were they transported to a regular hospital.

Most likely, doctors of those field hospitals had saved lives to several dozen people. Thus, the events in Beslan have clearly demonstrated that field hospitals are tremendously important and they ought to be used at all times when dealing with high numbers of victims.

Lesson N3. Avoid being taken hostage

This particular lesson concerns not so much the special services but ordinary civilians. Anti-terror experts claim that the best way to survive mass hostage capturing is to try to avoid to be among the first captives, when terrorists do not have everything under control.

"In a situation when you feel there is a high chance of being taken hostage, you should leave the danger zone.", state an anti-terrorism pamphlet. Those 50 people who managed to escape from the danger zone on September 1 in Beslan only prove this fact. Obviously, one always runs a risk of getting shot by a terrorist. However, it is lower than the risk of getting shot afterward.

Lesson N4. Our special services need to develop new techniques

Terrorists are good learners. They quickly adjust and can practically foresee the next step of our special services. That is why it is inadmissible to make the information regarding the actions of our militia public.

It is also of utmost important to develop new methods of military operations to fight terrorism..




Konstantin Getmansky"

----

bhk
09-07-04, 10:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/07/opinion/07brooks.html

Cult of Death
By DAVID BROOKS

Published: September 7, 2004






ARTICLE TOOLS


E-Mail This Article
Printer-Friendly Format
We've been forced to witness the massacre of innocents. In New York, Madrid, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Baghdad and Bali, we have seen thousands of people destroyed while going about the daily activities of life.

We've been forced to endure the massacre of children. Whether it's teenagers outside an Israeli disco or students in Beslan, Russia, we've seen kids singled out as special targets.

We should by now have become used to the death cult that is thriving at the fringes of the Muslim world. This is the cult of people who are proud to declare, "You love life, but we love death." This is the cult that sent waves of defenseless children to be mowed down on the battlefields of the Iran-Iraq war, that trains kindergartners to become bombs, that fetishizes death, that sends people off joyfully to commit mass murder.

This cult attaches itself to a political cause but parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring not independence but blood.

But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the sheer pleasure of killing and dying.

It's about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature, which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the joy of sadism and suicide.

We should be used to this pathological mass movement by now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of human beings.

Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.

The Boston Globe editorial, which was typical of the American journalistic response, made two quick references to the barbarity of the terrorists, but then quickly veered off with long passages condemning Putin and various Russian policy errors.

The Dutch foreign minister, Bernard Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union, declared: "All countries in the world need to work together to prevent tragedies like this. But we also would like to know from the Russian authorities how this tragedy could have happened."

It wasn't a tragedy. It was a carefully planned mass murder operation. And it wasn't Russian authorities who stuffed basketball nets with explosives and shot children in the back as they tried to run away.

Whatever horrors the Russians have perpetrated upon the Chechens, whatever their ineptitude in responding to the attack, the essential nature of this act was in the act itself. It was the fact that a team of human beings could go into a school, live with hundreds of children for a few days, look them in the eyes and hear their cries, and then blow them up.

Dissertations will be written about the euphemisms the media used to describe these murderers. They were called "separatists" and "hostage-takers." Three years after Sept. 11, many are still apparently unable to talk about this evil. They still try to rationalize terror. What drives the terrorists to do this? What are they trying to achieve?

They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."

This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.

Gil Jawetz
09-07-04, 11:49 AM
So what does Russia do now? Lock Chechnya down?

OldDude
09-07-04, 11:52 AM
I hope that Putin is mistaken and that the US is doing nothing that could give comfort to Chechnyan terrorists. Granted, he could have been a little more cooperative on Iraq. But we really need to make this "the two big guys take on everybody who believes in intentionally targeting civilians and children" show.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/07/putin.us/index.html
Putin blasts U.S. on terror stance
From CNN Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)

Mourners weep over the coffins of hostages killed in the siege.


MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.

Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.

His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.

In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.

But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."

Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.

These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.

Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.

"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.

He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.

In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:

"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

"They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children."

Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded.

Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians.

In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform.

"We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said.

"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."


Putin declared two days of mourning for those who died in Beslan.
Asked about the U.S. presidential race, Putin was complimentary of President George W. Bush, saying he likes him. He is a friendly, decent, predictable person, but "it is not about personalities," Putin said.

He said polls in Russia show 7 percent support for Bush, and 25 percent for Democratic challenger John Kerry.

Myster X
09-07-04, 11:53 AM
Hostage taking and suicide bombing will be ongoing in Russia unless,

A. fence in Chechnya, 1 in a 1,000,000 happening
B. nuke it or
C. same situation as Israeli/Palestinian years down the road

eXcentris
09-07-04, 12:12 PM
They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."

This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.


So I should lose my ability to think and focus entirely on blind hatred, just like the dickheads you are condemming? What a load of crap.

chanster
09-07-04, 12:38 PM
Yes if they murder and target kids!

chanster
09-07-04, 12:41 PM
In an interview late Monday with foreign journalists and academics, Putin again rejected Western calls for negotiations with Chechen rebel representatives, Britain’s Guardian daily reported.

“Why don’t you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?,” the Guardian quoted Putin as saying sarcastically.

“You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?”

bhk
09-07-04, 12:56 PM
So I should lose my ability to think and focus entirely on blind hatred,
Lose?

eXcentris
09-07-04, 01:55 PM
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...

According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.

OldDude
09-07-04, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by eXcentris
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...

According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.

I disagree entirely. I think he is saying they are not thinking clearly if they think thiese terrorists will be transformed into warm, fuzzy, friendly neighbors by some "magic action" they could take by being more understanding.

Certainly differences of opinion can exist, but I think these terrorists are hopeless, irredeemable people, and our best course of action is to kill them before they kill us. Now when someone acts rationally, and offers terms that are reasonable to stop the violence, that is a different matter. You can debate and negotiate the terms. But I tend to agree that these people:
*Enjoy the terror and get off on it
*Need to be killed.

I am sure I can count on you to assure us they just need to be understood and hugged.

eXcentris
09-07-04, 02:16 PM
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.

OldDude, your interpretation is clearly not what he is saying.


I am sure I can count on you to assure us they just need to be understood and hugged.


Sorry but that's the same "if you bother thinking you must be a soft tree hugging hippie" BS that he's using.

Mutley Hyde
09-07-04, 02:44 PM
Getting back on track; terrorist scum deserve to die. We may better ourselves by understanding them and their motives, but in the end, they still deserve to be killed. Dead. No more life for them. Muerte. Bye-bye.

:)

OldDude
09-07-04, 02:51 PM
Agreed. Hopefully we can retain our disgust at having to kill them, as we recognize the need to kill them. That is the difference that separates us.

eXcentris
09-07-04, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
Getting back on track; terrorist scum deserve to die. We may better ourselves by understanding them and their motives, but in the end, they still deserve to be killed. Dead. No more life for them. Muerte. Bye-bye.

:)

I agree. I guess my point is that there might be less of them to kill if you understand and try to prevent the conditions under which they thrive. And Russia created a monster in Chechenya which allowed Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to flourish. There are lessons to be learned from that as well.

If I have a rat problem in my house I'm not going to be content with just blasting them as they show up. At some point I'm going to go outside and try to figure out where they come from and why I have a rat problem in the first place. :)

Mutley Hyde
09-07-04, 03:02 PM
Well, rats simply breed, that's why they exist. Now, why they're in your house is another story. They're there because you left the trash in or near the house too damned long. So take out the trash more often, put rat poison all around the house for the long term solution, and get a few toms to hunt down and kill the few who are presently active for the immediate term.

i.e, let's apply this to Israel; kick out the Palestinians, finish building the wall, and maintain your military and order them to kill militants on sight. Oopah!

VinVega
09-07-04, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by eXcentris
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...

According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.
eX, maybe some of us have looked at numerous terrorist incidents and have thought about them. Perhaps some of us have come to a conclusion concerning terrorist actions that deliberately target innocent men women and now children. Just because I hate them, doesn't mean I don't think about what they want, what they are fighting for and who they are. I don't usually get into the fire and brimstone speeches where I call them evil incarnate or stuff like that, but these folks who do stuff like the school massacre must be destroyed. They can't be bargained with, because A) they have no real demands and just want a lot of media attention focused on them when they slay the civilians, or B) their demands are simply not something that their enemy can give, such as pulling out of an entire region, or freeing mass murderers. This combined with their choice of actions (terrorism) to gain what they want is unacceptable and that choice of action alone is like a light switch when you think about rational consideration of their situation. You can't "work with" terrorists, simply because of their methods, and they may have some legit. gripes, BUT by working with them, you have encouraged them to continue their methods and have consequently put more innocents in harms way.

I'm just curious what you would like me to consider when I make damning statements about terrorists? What should I be thinking about? Because I know it bothers you or annoys you when lots of folks come out cheering for the heads of the terrorists or condemning them. I guess I'm a little confused. Thanks.

VinVega
09-07-04, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by eXcentris
I agree. I guess my point is that there might be less of them to kill if you understand and try to prevent the conditions under which they thrive. And Russia created a monster in Chechenya which allowed Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to flourish. There are lessons to be learned from that as well.

If I have a rat problem in my house I'm not going to be content with just blasting them as they show up. At some point I'm going to go outside and try to figure out where they come from and why I have a rat problem in the first place. :)
I think the best way to prevent a lot of the problems we're having in the Middle East would be to completely pull out of that region. The Islamists want that and I think a heck of a lot of Westerners want that too. There's just this little problem of energy, we can't afford to. I really wish we (at least in the US) were energy independent, we wouldn't have half the problems if we just pulled out and let them kill each other like they have for a thousand years. At least our troops wouldn't be in the middle of it. Until that day of energy independence comes, we'll be up to our neck in Mid East conflicts. We are the cause of a lot of their problems, simply because we are there. That's pretty simplistic, but more or less why they are fighting us. The irony of it is, our oil money helps fund their terrorism against us.

bhk
09-07-04, 04:02 PM
We should try to understand why the Nazi's hated the Jews or the KKK hates non-whites, or what those people did in the Sudan who are being slaughtered to be so hated.

Myster X
09-07-04, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by bhk
We should try to understand why the Nazi's hated the Jews or the KKK hates non-whites, or what those people did in the Sudan who are being slaughtered to be so hated.

give the UN 20 years and you'll have the answer

raven56706
09-07-04, 04:15 PM
Did anyone see the video of the inside of the school during the whole ordeal.... according to cnn, it was shown on russian tv.

eXcentris
09-07-04, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by VinVega

I'm just curious what you would like me to consider when I make damning statements about terrorists? What should I be thinking about? Because I know it bothers you or annoys you when lots of folks come out cheering for the heads of the terrorists or condemning them. I guess I'm a little confused. Thanks.

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is arguments, such as the one used in that article, which state that if you try to understand (motives/historical/social aspects) you are trying to condone/justify/defend terrorists, or that you don't have the balls to face the horror and are using thinking as a diversion. That's just silly.

When I pointed out why a lot of Chechen terrorists are women, I immediately got drowned by the "don't think, just condemn the bastards and shut up" crowd. And that irks me to no end.

eXcentris
09-07-04, 04:33 PM
And it's kind of ironic that the people who argue that we should be cold blooded bastards when dealing with terrorists seem to be the ones who can't look at some of these terrorist acts coldly and are the ones who bring out the "who cares why they did it, they kill women and children!" line of reasoning and are too emotionally involved to be able to look past the horror.

pum
09-07-04, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by raven56706
Did anyone see the video of the inside of the school during the whole ordeal.... according to cnn, it was shown on russian tv.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

click the video link.

mrpayroll
09-07-04, 05:32 PM
Wow! These cowards won't even show their faces for their cause.

Chris

DVD Polizei
09-07-04, 05:39 PM
VinVega,

Well, I think if we did completely pull out of the Middle East, it wouldn't stop US attacks in the future. However, it would save the lives of soldiers in the short-term.

DVD Polizei
09-07-04, 05:41 PM
Taken from Pravda.ru

"You have kids too, talk to your friends, have mercy on children!" Rakiat Kodzoyev said in an address to her husband, who was a terrorist in the group, which seized the school in Beslan, southern Russia. The tape with the address was handed over to the terrorists. Iznaur Kodzoyev, Rakiat's husband, was killed in several hours after the militants saw the tape. The idea with a video tape appeared at a moment, when special services believed negotiations with the militants had reached a deadlock.

The Russian special services managed to identify one of the terrorists during the crisis. Police officers visited the Kodzoyevs and taped the address of his wife. Rakiat Kodzoyev asked her husband to think about five children of his own before harming others. The tape showed the footage of Kodzoyev's five children asleep.

The tape was broadcast yesterday on the German TV channel RTL within the scope of the program Spiegel TV, prepared by Spiegel magazine. "The tape was made in an attempt to start negotiations to free hostages without any victims," a spokesman for the program said.

According to Spiegel TV, Russian law-enforcement agencies nabbed three other terrorists, who stayed alive. Vladimir Khodov, known as Abdullah, is among them. This terrorist has been on wanted list for other terrorist acts he committed in the past. Other reports say that Khodov was not in the terrorist group that attacked the school in Beslan, but was attracted for negotiations along with Shamil Basayev's man, Magomet Yevloyev (a national of Ingushetia) and one of Basayev's bodyguards of the Russian origin (the name of the latter is not known yet).

The fact of the video proves the intention of special services to negotiate with the terrorists. However, the Russian special services knew that Rakiat Kodzoyev was the wife of one of the terrorists, who had seized the school. Furthermore, other terrorists' relatives have been supposedly found too. It is another confirmation to the version about an accomplice of the terrorists in the town and about the links the local government had with the militants. "

----

chanster
09-07-04, 06:37 PM
And it's kind of ironic that the people who argue that we should be cold blooded bastards when dealing with terrorists seem to be the ones who can't look at some of these terrorist acts coldly and are the ones who bring out the "who cares why they did it, they kill women and children!" line of reasoning and are too emotionally involved to be able to look past the horror.

How is it ironic? I am not advocating killing their children. There is a difference about hunting down these animals and killing their children.

DVD Polizei
09-07-04, 07:43 PM
Shooting a child point-blank in the head, is different than shooting a terrorist who hides behind a child and the child gets killed in the process.

Some may not agree with me, but I do think there is a difference.

Pelayu
09-07-04, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by chanster
So? It sounds to me like they weren't planning on assaulting the building. Something happened, the bombs starting going off and the shit hit the fan.

The people that are responsible are the terrorists.

How can Russia retaliate? Invade Checyna again? What good will that do?

Well, the reporters that were near the school at that moment along with Ruslan Aushev, ex-president of Ingushetia, say that previous to the bomb explosion there was some shooting. Only after that, one of the bombs exploded and hostages rushed from the gym. Terrorists opened fire both on them and on four rescuers from the Ministry of Emergency that were approaching the school at that moment to take bodies of killed men (they were some adults and senior students ). Aushev called up one of the terrorists inside and asked him to stop shooting. He just answered Aushev "We did cease fire, it is yours that didn't". But neither troops nor Alfa and Vimpel were shooting (the latter simply weren't there!). Who was shooting? The so called militia (fathers and relatives of hostages) are supposed to have been shooting. Then he went on"it is all over now, we gonna blow this thing up". Only after that the troops were given the command to storm the building. FSB Special Forces (Alfa and Vimpel) were hiding far away from the perimeter. If one can believe the words of a FSB official, there was absolutely no plan, the storm was spontaneous and there was not a single Alfa or Vimplel member involved during the first 15 minutes . Both commandos are reported to have lost 10 men killed, it is the largest death toll in their history! When they at last entered the building, they began rescuing children instead of clearing the building (not all of them of course). What was it? A command? One of the commandos killed first was a man carrying two little girls out of the school building. He was shot right in the neck by a sniper.

So, yes, it is a big and serious failure. But nonetheless I'm sure one can't judge the efficiency of Russian Special Forces by that great collapse . The whole mess was handled by higher governing bodies (you name them). Guys simply weren't given a command, they weren't given an opportunity to make their job properly.
Just remember the Dubrovka theater storm. If we consider a failure every assault with casualities, then there will be failures all over. But still I think we cannot compare these two cases from the very beginning.
1. Location differences. Moscow is not Beslan. A surrounded terrorist has absolutely no chance to flee. That is, Dubrovka terrorists, at the moment of taking over the building, were completely and definitely ready to die (well, they're all ready to die, but still...) Beslan is North Caucasus, and if you shave your beard off, be you Arab or Chechen, you can merge into the crowd without any problem letting alone that Beslan is still highlands with everything that it may imply.
2. Building construction differences. There are some considerable differences in the building structures of both Dubrovka theater in Moscow and Beslan school building. Once you're inside a theater, there is no chance to escape but through 2 or 3 exits. Beslan school is a "lighter" building.
Considering all the gravity of Dubrovka situation and knowing beforehand that there will be absolutely no concession, Alfa by itself did a great job. No bomb detonated (and now we know that they can detonate), all terrorists dead, not a single hostage wounded by a bullet during the assault. Nobody had a clue of what type of gas was used. It was a total surprise. Foreign intelligence services were knocked out. A commando member with an Alfa badge on his arm cannot be blamed for the sluggishness of his government. If there was a lack of transport, particularly, ambulances, who is to blame?

P.S. I may be missing something, but what does "invade Chechnya" really mean? If you had, say, some serious terrorist conglomerations somewhere in Texas, could you "invade" Texas?

Pelayu
09-07-04, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Cool Kitten
even if Russia won't the people will. The vigilante justice is ingrained into Russian culture. I can't shake it off even after living in US for 14 years :lol:

Huh? I don't even have a fuckin' gun :D

Pelayu
09-07-04, 08:40 PM
Pharoh, my friend, I'll answer you later...Now it's showtime..err bedtime! :D

VinVega
09-07-04, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
VinVega,

Well, I think if we did completely pull out of the Middle East, it wouldn't stop US attacks in the future. However, it would save the lives of soldiers in the short-term.
That's certainly a topic for debate. I have my opinion on it, but it's not set in stone. I do think energy independence would be a HUGE factor in hurting the funding of terrorists. With the intense spread of Islam all over the world right now, there will still be substantial support from the Islamic community for the terror. The donations will come in 10's and 100's of dollars, not the thousands and 10's of thousands they now come from wealthy benefactors from the oil nations. I think it was a Saudi prince or oil man who said, "My grandfather rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, and my grandchildren will once again drive a camel." or something to that effect. I'm just looking to get those terror funding bastards back on the camel a lot faster. You can't fund terror with a pocket full of sand as you can with a pocket full of oil-made dollar bills.

Pharoh
09-08-04, 06:36 PM
Small update:

Basayev has denied any role in the attack, which many analysts find out of character, if he indeed was responsible.

However, based on some the codenames supposedly given out by the attackers, Basayev is clearly the culprit.

The bigger speculation now is that no Arabs were involved in the attacks.

Myster X
09-09-04, 01:20 AM
One week later, not even a single Arab leader goes on camera and denounce this. Funny how trigger happy they are when lashing out at the US for the Abul Ghraib prison abuse. -rolleyes-

Mutley Hyde
09-09-04, 08:06 AM
Actually, Mr. X, I posted an article the day after the tragedy which reported several instances of Arab condemnation of the incident. These weren't just a few clerics in the street, these were journalists in their papers even.

mrpayroll
09-15-04, 10:05 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20040915/ts_nm/russia_school_dc

Children Return to Beslan Schools After Siege

1 hour, 57 minutes ago

BESLAN, Russia (Reuters) - Children clutching their mothers' hands, some with tears in their eyes, returned to schools in Beslan amid heavy security Wednesday, two weeks after a hostage massacre at a school in the town.

Sniffer dogs and bomb experts scoured the schools before they were reopened, but the efforts failed to reassure the more than three-quarters of students who stayed away.

Those who turned up said they were nervous, but determined to forge ahead after a two-day siege by Chechen rebels at school No. 1 ended with the deaths of more than 320 hostages -- half of them children. Hundreds more were injured.

"I don't want to surrender to my mood," said Svetlana Zukurova, one of many mothers sitting in class alongside their children.

"I don't want my child to develop fear of life's difficulties, fear of the terrible disaster which has united us all. Let our children learn and become kind people, who can be forgiving and compassionate."

Beslan's six remaining schools were under armed guard, but security fears and shock kept most pupils away. At school No. 2, only 10 percent of 900 students turned up, and at school No. 6 around 20 percent showed up.

"We came to school today to learn, and we will study well," said first-year pupil Murat Pliyev. One of his fellow newcomers was sobbing.

The day began with a minute of silence and lessons remembering those who died. After classes, older children were taken to what remained of school No. 1, where they laid flowers and paid their respects.

Teachers told their charges the learning process would continue as normal but everyone should be on their guard.

"Even if nothing happens ... we will live with our fear, we will be vigilant," headmistress Valentina Gokinayeva told her pupils. "We will know that at any moment we will have to be prepared to defend ourselves and our loved ones."

Older pupils found an addition to their regular timetables of mathematics, history and geography -- safety lessons.

"Now this lesson will be one of the most important on the school program, because in the lessons they will learn how to survive in any extreme situation," said teacher Viktor Mikhailov, quoted by Itar-Tass news agency.

Those who survived the siege will receive counseling before eventually returning to study in other schools. Some have been sent to recuperate in Russia's Black Sea resorts.



Seems a little early to me! :(

Chris

mrpayroll
10-12-04, 11:58 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228647/

After school siege, Russians' grief turns to anger
Beslan still reels from tragedy that touched whole city


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041011/041011_beslan_hmed_8p.hmedium.jpg
Ivan Sekretarev / AP
An unidentified woman touches a portrait of Zelim Chedzhemov, a 9-year-old boy killed in the Beslan, Russia, school massacre in early September. This week marks the end of the traditional 40-day mourning period since the hostage-taking in which 330 people, more than half of them children, died.

By Peter Baker

Updated: 12:44 a.m. ET Oct. 12, 2004

BESLAN, Russia - The people of Beslan buried two more children on Friday, a 7-year-old boy and a 2-year-old girl. They still dig graves at the cemetery nearly every day. The weekend before there were yet another 23 funerals.

Three of those laid to rest that weekend were children of Taimuraz Totiyev and Raya Tsolmayova. They had already buried another child, as well as a niece. Yet another niece's body is still missing. :confused: Of the eight children who left the Totiev brothers' adjoining homes on Sept. 1, only two came back alive.

More than five weeks after hundreds perished in the seizure of School No. 1 by Chechen separatists, Beslan remains a town reeling from grief, shock, rage and disbelief, a town whose suffering seems only compounded by the day. Dozens of burned bodies remain unidentified. Many believe the government is covering up the real death toll. Millions of dollars in donations have not reached the victims. And as the traditional Orthodox Christian mourning period ends this week, there are renewed fears of violent reprisals fueled by ethnic animosity.

Ethnic discord growing

Many here in North Ossetia harbor a seething hatred for Ingush in the neighboring republic. The Ingush, who are predominantly Muslim, and the Ossetians, most of whom are Christians, have a history of ethnic rivalry that culminated in a brief but bloody territorial war in 1992.

When the 40-day mourning period ends Wednesday, some Ossetians may lash out at the Ingush. "We are very concerned that there be peace, no revenge," said Marina Tuayeva, 41, a volunteer helping school victims. Sergei Tsomartov, 27, another Beslan resident, added, "The older people are trying to convince the younger ones to have peace."

"People are all filled with anger because the tragedy touched practically everyone," said Totiyev, sitting at the table where his children used to celebrate birthdays. "People today are angry — ... some with the government. The majority of the terrorists were Ingush so people are angry with Ingush and many want to take revenge. What is going to happen?"

Hundreds, even thousands, of people wander solemnly through the burned-out, pockmarked school building each day, leaving flowers and lighting candles. Many traumatized children refuse to go to other schools. Local television ends its evening newscast with names of missing people whose families are still seeking information about them.

Conspiracy theories abound

Prosecutors on Friday began criminal proceedings against three police officers in Ingushetia accused of criminal negligence connected to the case. Amid conflicting official accounts, conspiracy theories have multiplied. In the latest quest for scapegoats, many residents have turned on the school director, covering the school with graffiti painting her as complicit, although there is no evidence she was.

"Everybody's still shocked," said Elza Baskayeva, editor of the local newspaper, whose own daughter was among the hostages who survived. "It's so hard. I wake up in the morning with these thoughts in my mind that go back to those days. It doesn't let me go."

The town is eerily silent. "At nine in the morning," Baskayeva said, "you walk to work and there are no cars, no people. It's scary. In the morning, you don't hear the roosters anymore. Even the dogs have stopped barking."

For some, early stoicism has given way to inconsolable anguish. "At first the heart turned to stone and wouldn't let the pain in," said Murat Dzheliyev, 27, who lost family friends. "But as the days went by, it started to hurt even more. The pain really took over. It hurts whenever you look at children."

No one knows for sure why the guerrillas targeted School No. 1. As the fall term opened on Sept. 1, 32 gunmen raced into the courtyard, took at least 1,200 hostages and rigged the gymnasium with bombs. For 52 hours, they held Russian forces at bay, demanding an end to the war in the nearby separatist region of Chechnya.

Day of horror

At midday on Sept. 3, an explosion ripped through the gym, followed by another, sparking pandemonium. As children began leaping out the windows to escape, the guerrillas shot some of them in the back. By most accounts, Russian troops initially held back, hoping to prevent an all-out battle, but local men armed with their own guns had penetrated the perimeter and began firing back, setting off a daylong battle in which hundreds were killed.

Exactly how many died has become a point of controversy. Although the government sticks to an official death toll of 331, there are indications it may have been much higher.

A local committee set up by teachers to assist the victims has compiled a list of 1,220 hostages that it has posted on a Web site, www.beslan.ru. As of a week ago, according to the committee, 329 people had been identified and buried, while another 76 were still listed as missing, for a total of 405.

Fatima Ramonova, a math teacher who serves on the committee, estimated that the actual death toll would be "not less than 500." Yelena Kasumova, the deputy school director who heads the committee, said in a separate interview that "unfortunately it seems to me the figure will reach 500." Another source who has closely followed the issue and did not want to be named for fear of reprisal suggested it could be 600.

Government stays mum

Aleksandr Dzasokhov, the president of North Ossetia, declined an interview request and his spokesman refused to answer questions or make available any other official to comment.

The government has little credibility with residents after lying during the siege about the number of hostages held in the school, a deception it later admitted on state television. Officials also claimed at first that 10 Arabs and an African were among the hostage-takers, but never produced any bodies to prove it. The only bodies identified publicly have been Chechen, Ingush and Ossetian. Former hostages have said they saw no Arabs.

Many residents are convinced that Chechen or Ingush workers hid weapons inside the school during a summertime renovation. A newspaper account from August reported that a crew working on the school was led by a man whose name sounded Chechen or Ingush. But teachers and neighbors insist that that they painted and fixed up the building themselves and that no other workers were brought in.

The renovation theory has provoked recriminations against the school director, Lydia Tsaliyeva. Graffiti on the walls around her office, using the diminutive of her first name, says, "Lida — Sellout. Couldn't you see when they brought the weapons?" And, "Your place is in hell, Lida. God will punish you."

Yet Tsaliyeva, her sister and three of their grandchildren were held hostage, and the director was injured so badly that she remains hospitalized, according to colleagues. "They can't find the real guilty ones and for some reason they blame it on her," said Kasumova, her deputy. Another deputy, Olga Sherbinina, said the man mentioned in the newspaper was actually the school custodian's Dagestani brother, who was helping with repairs last summer. But no one has explained this to a vengeful public.

Aide delayed, stolen

Little humanitarian assistance has found its way here. Donations in Russia are often stolen, and many fear the same will happen here.

Like other media outlets, Moscow's Silver Rain radio station set up its own fund rather than give to a charitable organization. "There are too many frauds and violations and money doesn't reach the kids," said Olga Popkova, the station's chief editor. "When people brought us money, they expected us to avoid the fraud where money ends up in the bank accounts of dishonest people." So far, she said, the station has delivered $300,000 of $1.2 million collected, mainly buying equipment for hospitals where hundreds of former hostages remain.

All the money in the world, however, could not replace the laughter in the homes of the Totiyev families. Deeply religious Baptists in a largely Orthodox town, they said they took solace in the hundreds of letters they had received from fellow believers around the world, most of which they could not even read. And they said they took solace from their faith in God. But their children are gone and their homes are silent.

Taimuraz Totiyev and Raya Tsolmayova had five children. Four died in the school. Totiyev's brother, Konstantin, had six children — two were too old to go to school and one too young. Two of the three who went to school that day died. One of those two, Dzera, 14, has not been found.

"We never had a quiet home like now," said Tsolmayova, 44, as her sole surviving child, Madina, slipped upstairs without a word, a day before her 13th birthday. "We had 11 children together, so sometimes we'd have two birthdays in a month."

She and her husband talked about each of their lost children — Larisa, 14, the oldest who loved writing secrets in her notebook; Lyuba, 11, who survived the blast only to die in the hospital; Albina, 10, the one they called "the aristocrat"; and Boris, 8, the doted-upon son who would steal the neighbor's flowers to give his mother. "Only the memories are left," said Totiyev, 42, a baker.

The passage of time has not helped. Many nights, Tsolmayova said she dreamed she was in the school as the terrorists were killing children.

The bodies of Larisa, Albina and Boris were identified by DNA only a week ago and buried a week ago Sunday.

"It's just getting harder," said Totiyev. "A man has a big family, has all these plans. Then in one moment, everything disappears — the family, the plans, everything in one moment collapses. It's so hard."


An update to remind everyone that their pain and suffering continues on to this day! :(

Chris

DVD Polizei
10-12-04, 01:01 PM
Would be nice if Bush sent $5 million their way.

kvrdave
10-12-04, 01:11 PM
Perhaps just after he drops of the daisy cutter for the Ingush.