Annual Pig Book Traces Taxpaer Spending

[classicman2]

Fox News:

WASHINGTON — The town known for checking a groundhog's shadow to learn if winter will last six more weeks is receiving $100,000 in taxpayer dollars this year for the Punxsatawney Weather Discovery Center Museum.

Government spending watchdog Citizens Against Government Waste gives a yearly assessment of congressional pet projects that made it into the annual budget. In fiscal year 2005, that sum totaled a record $27.3 billion, the organization said Wednesday as it released its 2005 Congressional Pig Book.

"My favorite this year is the $100,000 for the Punxsatawny Weather Discovery Center Museum. We are now funding groundhogs," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a longtime critic of congressional pork, who attended the release of CAGW's report.

Complete with props, live pigs and the mascot called Porky, CAGW President Tom Schatz said no end is in sight for the continued pork-barrel spending.

"We used to rent this pig suit. For 15 years, we were hoping we wouldn't need it next year. We gave up. We bought the pig suit because there is no sign that the tidal wave of pork on Capitol Hill will abate anytime soon," Schatz said.

The projects targeted include $469,000 for the National Wildlife Turkey Federation in South Carolina. The group supports, among other things, wild turkey hunting as a traditional North American sport.

The state of Alabama received $1.7 million for the International Fertilizer Center.

"That, of course, receives the 'Don't Step On It' award," Schatz said.

The Tiger Woods Foundation also received $100,000.

"And it was only in the last week or so that the foundation even realized it was getting the money," Schatz said.

Alaska Republican Sen. Ted Stevens has been at the top of the list for the last four years for acquiring money for local projects in his state.

"But this time, Sen. Stevens, the outgoing and now former chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, really went whole hog. He added $646 million for his state, which equates to $985 per capita," Schatz said.

West Virginia Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd also rarely escapes criticism for inserting into various congressional bills funding for hometown projects.

"Americans don't send their hard-earned tax dollars to Washington so Sen. Byrd can take $399 million back to West Virginia and earn the 'Flipping the Bird' of the taxpayers award," Schatz said.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio, makes the list for receiving $350,000 for music education programs. But that is just one of the halls of fame making the Pig Book this year. The Paper Industry Hall of Fame in Appleton, Wis., earned $70,000.

"It is to honor any individual, living or deceased, who has pioneered or uniquely helped the paper industry flourish. (They are) eligible for induction into the paper industry hall of fame. I believe many people who work here in Washington and Capitol Hill are eligible for membership," McCain said.

In its defense, a representative of the Paper Industry Hall of Fame said the organization is using the money for a science and technology center for children. Conservative columnist George Will added that anyone who gets up in arms over congressional pork should realize that the total sum spent on pet projects is just a blip in the overall budget.

"It is trivial as a sum of money. It is a rounding error when it comes to the prescription drug entitlement that this Congress and a vast amount of American people seem to want," Will told FOX News. "Second, there is a sense in which in a continental democracy that is not unified by ideology, that is unified by factions and interests and involves a lot of coalition building, pork is one of the ways you build coalitions and engage in log rolling."
______________

1. I don't see any mention of the 'pork' that goes to defense spending.

2. Another missing item - Arizona pork.

[bhk]

Yeah, a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.


This sort of thing is exactly why taxes should be cut again, unless these fools are starved of funds, they are going to find more and more wacky ways to buy votes with your money.

[nemein]

1. I don't see any mention of the 'pork' that goes to defense spending.

2. Another missing item - Arizona pork.

1. Has that ever really been included in the report?

2. Even this group knows you don't bite the hand that feeds you ;)

[wendersfan]

2. Another missing item - Arizona pork.Just for you, c-man:
<hr>
<b>Arizona Pork Stew</b>
Recipe By :Taste of Home Homemaker Schools
Serving Size : 6

1 1/2 pounds boneless pork -- cut into 1/2-inch cubes
salt and pepper to taste
1 tablespoon vegetable oil
1 onion -- coarsely chopped
2 garlic cloves -- minced
1 can Del Monte Original Recipe stewed tomatoes -- (14-1/2 ounce) undrained
1 can diced green chiles -- (4-ounce)
1 teaspoon ground cumin
1/2 teaspoon dried oregano
1 can black beans -- (15-ounce) rinsed and drained or
1 can pinto or kidney beans -- (15 ounce ) rinsed and drained

Season meat with salt and pepper. In a large skillet, brown meat in hot oil. Add onion and garlic; cook until tender. Add tomatoes, chiles, cumin and oregano. Cover and simmer about 20 minutes. Stir in beans. Cover and cook about 10 minutes more or until meat is tender, stirring occasionally.

Yield: 6 servings.
Source: Taste of Home Magazine Cooking School Recipe Collection, Fall 2000

<hr>
Seriously, I Googled 'arizona pork' and this was the first entry. :lol:

[classicman2]

One of the very few things I agree with Senator Trent Lott is his definition of pork-barrel spending.

[DVD Polizei]

$27.3 Billion is a "blip on the radar". Wow.

[classicman2]

What's the annual budget?

27 billion dollars is just a blip on the radar.

[nemein]

$27.3 Billion is a "blip on the radar". Wow.

It works out to be roughly 1%, not completely pocket change IMHO (comparatively speaking) but "blip" is not too far off.

[Venusian]

2. Another missing item - Arizona pork.


It's there in the report:


State Cost Description Status Appropriation Fiscal Year
AZ $396,000 Water conservation Laboratory and Western Cotton (Agriculture Research Service - Buildings and Facilities) NBR, S AG 95
AZ $4,900,000 Student pilot dormitory, Luke Air Force Base NBR, S MILCON 95
AZ $1,800,000 Composite maintenance facility, Air Force Reserve, Luke Air Force Base NBR, H MILCON 95
AZ $1,900,000 Squadron operations facility, Air Force Reserve, Luke Air Force Base NBR, H MILCON 95
AZ $91,000 Navajo Nation conservation (Cooperative State Research Service) NBR, C AG 95
AZ $200,000 Alamo Dam Bill Williams River - General Investigation NBR, S ENERGY 95
AZ $500,000 Gila River & Tributaries, McDowell mountains - General Investigation NBR ENERGY 95
AZ $500,000 Gila River & Tributaries, Santa Cruz River Basin - General Investigation NBR ENERGY 95
AZ $300,000 Gila River & Tributaries, Tortolita drainage area - General Investigation NBR, H ENERGY 95
AZ $2,500,000 Tucson diversion channel - Operations Maintenance. NBR ENERGY 95
AZ $5,000,000 150 room dormitory at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Tucson NBR, S TREAS 95
AZ $2,100,000 New dining hall at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Tucson - Federal Law Enforcement Training Center NBR, S TREAS 95
AZ $500,000 Firearms ranges at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Tucson - Federal Law Enforcement Training Center NBR, S TREAS 95
AZ $2,400,000 Design, acquisition, and preperation of a facility dedicated to periodic firearms requalification and training in advanced firing techniques and explosives - FLETC NBR, S TREAS 95
AZ $2,200,000 A grant to the FAA for a runway protection zone - Bullhead City NBR, C, TREAS 95
AZ $2,000,000 A grant to the Arizona Historical Documents Education Foundation - Tucson NBR, C, TREAS 95
AZ $81,708,000 U.S. courthouse- Tucson ($69 million ABR) - General Services Administartion UA TREAS 95
AZ $500,000 Construction of a border fence in Nogales, AZ - U.S. Customs Service NBR TREAS 95
AZ $2,037,000 Grand Canyon National Park (visitor center rehabilitation) - National Park Service Construction NBR, S INT 95
AZ $750,000 Prescott National Forest - Land Acquistion - USDA NBR, S INT 95
AZ $400,000 For the integrated solid waste management planning project for tribal governments - EPA ABR, S VAHUD 95
AZ $500,000 For the Earthquake Engineering Center at the University of Nevada, Reno - FEMA ABR, S VAHUD 95
AZ $76,000 Produce pricing (Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service, Research and Education Activities) NBR, H AG 05
AZ $584,000 International Arid Lands Consortium (Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service, Research and Education Activities - Special Research Grants) NBR AG 05
AZ $125,000 Quantify basin water budget components in the Southwest, Tucson (Agricultural Research Service: Salaries and Expenses) NBR, H AG 05
AZ $150,000 Aflatoxin in cotton, Phoenix (Agricultural Research Service: Salaries and Expenses) NBR, H AG 05
AZ $200,000 Operation Quality Time for at-risk youth (Discretionary Grants - Juvenile Justice Programs) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $250,000 Law enforcement technologies for sheriff's offices in Cochise County (Law Enforcement Technology - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $750,000 Law enforcement technologies to be split evenly between City of Tucson and Pima County Police Departments (Law Enforcement Technology - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $400,000 Maricopa County meth funding (Metamphetamine Enforcement and Clean Up - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, S COM 05
AZ $1,000,000 Indigenous Peoples Law & Policy Project at the University of Arizona (State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance - Byrne Discretionary Grant) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $1,000,000 Navajo Nation for law enforcement technologies and crime prevention programs (Law Enforcement Technology - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $500,000 Technology to combat crime and terrorism in Phoenix (Law Enforcement Technology - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $500,000 Violent Crime Scene Response Unit (Law Enforcement Technology - Community Oriented Policing Services) NBR, H COM 05
AZ $153,000 Santa Cruz River, Grant Road to Ft. Lowell Rd (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $750,000 VA Shl-AY Akimel River Restoration Project [Planning] (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $93,000 Santa Cruz River, Grant Road to Ft. Lowell Rd [Planning] (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $1,000,000 Technical upgrades at St. Joseph Hospital (Biological & Environmental Research - Department of Energy) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $700,000 University of Arizona Environment and Natural Resources Phase II Facility (Biological & Environmental Research - Department of Energy) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $2,250,000 Tucson drainage area (Tucson Arroyo) (Corps of Engineers: Construction) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $1,250,000 Nogales Wash (Corps of Engineers: Construction) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $2,500,000 Rio De Flag (Corps of Engineers: Construction) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $1,000,000 Rio Salado, Phoenix and Tempe Reaches (Corps of Engineers: Construction) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $3,500,000 Tres Rios (Corps of Engineers: Construction) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $25,000 Agua Fria (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $478,000 Rio Salado Oeste (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $25,000 Gila River & Tribs (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $25,000 Navajo Nation (Corps of Engineers: General Investigations) NBR, C ENERGY 05
AZ $500,000 East Wetlands Restoration Project in Yuma, wetlands development (Water & Related Resources - Bureau of Reclamation) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $510,000 South/Central Arizona Investigations Program (Water & Related Resources - Bureau of Reclamation) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $700,000 Colorado River Front Work and Levee System (Water & Related Resources - Bureau of Reclamation) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $375,000 Phoenix Metropolitan Water Reclamation & Reuse Project (Water & Related Resources - Bureau of Reclamation) NBR, H ENERGY 05
AZ $1,800,000 Coconino NF: Sedona/Red Rocks/Oak Creek (Land Acquisition - Department of Agriculture) NBR, S INT 05
AZ $4,000,000 Phoenix Indian Medical Center (PIMC), design of a southwest and southeast clinic (Indian Health Facilities - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR INT 05
AZ $400,000 Yuma Crossing NHA (Heritage Partnership Program - National Park Service) NBR INT 05
AZ $6,600,000 Organ Pipe Cactus NM, construct vehicle barrier - completes (Construction - National Park Service) NBR INT 05
AZ $500,000 Sierra Vista Regional Health Center in Sierra Vista for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $300,000 Scottsdale Healthcare in Scottsdale (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Scottsdale Healthcare in Scottsdale for facilities and equipment for the Osborne facility (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $1,000,000 Advanced Ceramics Research, Inc. for academic outreach and workforce development (Employment and Training Administration - Department of Labor) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $100,000 Yavapai Regional Medical Center, Prescott, for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $1,200,000 Translational Genomics Research Institute in Phoenix for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $1,000,000 Tucson Medical Center in Tucson for facilities and equipment for the TMC Health Care hospice facility (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $100,000 Sun Life Family Health Center, Inc. in Casa Grande for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $1,200,000 University of Arizona in Tucson for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $400,000 El Pueblo Health Center, Tucson, for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $100,000 Canyonlands Community Health Care, Page, for facilities and equipment at three clinics (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $200,000 Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, for the Keim Genetics Laboratory (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $400,000 Midwestern University, Glendale, for a rural postgraduate educational program at Sierra Vista Regional Medical Center (HRSA - HHS) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $240,000 Mountain Park Health Center, Phoenix, for facilities and equipment at its Tolleson site (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $100,000 Morenci Health Care Center, Inc., Morenci, for facilities and equipment (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Maricopa County for facilities and equipment for health care and dental clinics (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Maricopa County for extension of its telemedicine capabilities (Health Resources and Services Administration - Department of Health and Human Services) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Maricopa County Regional School District, Phoenix, for educational services at the Thomas J. Pappas Schools in Phoenix and Tempe (Funds for the Improvement of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $225,000 National Student/Parent Mock Election, Tucson, for its voter education program (Fund for the Improvement of Education - Department of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $500,000 Navajo County Schools, Holdbrook, for educational programming (Fund for the Improvement of Education - Department of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Kids Voting USA, Tempe, for voter participation programs through its national and affiliate offices (Fund for the Improvement of Education - Department of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $100,000 University of Arizona Health Science Center, Tucson, for the combined family practice residency/integrative medicine fellowship training program (FIPE) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $200,000 University of Arizona to establish an Indigenous Peoples Law and Policy Project (Fund for the Improvement of Post Secondary Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Thomas J. Pappas Elementary School, Phoenix, for Project TEAMS (Fund for the Improvement of Education - Department of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $200,000 Maricopa County Community College District, Phoenix, for the Hispanic Bilingual Nursing Fellows Program and for educational programs to trian court reporters (FIPE) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $250,000 Maricopa County Community College District, Tempe, for its Bilingual Nursing Fellow Program (Fund for the Improvement of Post Secondary Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $500,000 Gila County Schools, Globe, for educational programming (Fund for the Improvement of Education - Department of Education) NBR, C LABHHS 05
AZ $7,900,000 Luke Air Force Base ATFP Litchfield Road Underpass and Entry Point replacement (Air Force) NBR, H MILCON 05
AZ $7,000,000 Davis-Monthan Air Force Base EC-130 Squad Operations Facility (Air Force) NBR, H MILCON 05
AZ $18,000,000 Fort Huachuca Army Global Information Facility (Army) NBR, S MILCON 05
AZ $3,500,000 Phoenix Sky Harbor International, taxiway reconstruction (Grants in Aid for Airports - Federal Aviation Administration) NBR TRANS 05
AZ $2,500,000 Lone Pine Dam Road (Federal Lands - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,000,000 Pine Springs Road N9010 (Federal Lands - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,000,000 I-10 Bridge widening at Ray Road (Bridge Discretionary Program - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $10,000,000 Hoover Dam Bypass Bridge (Bridge Discretionary Program - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $200,000 Bridge Number 658 (Bridge Discretionary Program - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $2,750,000 Sun Tran CNG replacement bus, Tucson (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,300,000 Chandler Municipal Airport, heliport relocation (Grants in Aid for Airports - Federal Aviation Administration) NBR TRANS 05
AZ $2,000,000 Deer Valley (Terminal Air Traffic Control Facilities Replacement - Federal Aviation Administration) NBR TRANS 05
AZ $1,334,800 Phoenix (Terminal Air Traffic Control Facilities Replacement - Federal Aviation Administration) NBR TRANS 05
AZ $2,500,000 Rio Salado Parkway (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $4,500,000 Twin Peaks Road Corridor (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,000,000 Turquoise Trail Project (BIA 4) (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $500,000 Transportation Project at the University of Arizona Science Center at Rio Nuevo (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $500,000 Campbell Avenue Gateway Corridor, Tucson (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $300,000 East Flagstaff Interchange (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,500,000 I-10 from Interchange of SR 90 to Ocotillo TI (Federal-Aid Highways - Federal Highway Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,000,000 Alternative fuel replacement buses, Tucson (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $2,600,000 Coconino County - Sedona bus system (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,400,000 Coconino County - Flagstaff bus system (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $350,000 Dial-a-Ride Facility, Phoenix (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $800,000 Downtown Tempe Transit Center (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $6,950,000 East Valley bus maintenance facility (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $1,500,000 Phoenix, Glendale, and Avondale bus replacement (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $3,500,000 Phoenix/Glendale West Valley Operating Facility (Bus & bus facilities - Federal Transit Administration) NBR, C TRANS 05
AZ $72,750 Dunbar Coalition for the Dunbar Project in Tucson for playground equipment, restoration of the school ramada, and renovation of the auditorium (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $97,000 Boys and Girls Clubs of Metro Phoenix for a new facility for the Glendale Boys & Girls Club in Phoenix, Arizona (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $72,750 Buillion Plaza Museum Association in Miami, Arizona for restoration of the museum building (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, C VAHUD 05
AZ $242,500 Chicanos Por La Causa for land acquisition at the Buckeye Road Site Development in Phoenix (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $150,000 City of Phoenix for construction of the Bob Stump Veteran's Museum (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $150,000 Marc Center in Mesa for the construction of the Marc Day Treatment and Training Center (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $250,000 Patronato San Xavier for facilities renovation at Mission San Xavier del Bac in Tucson (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $430,000 Fox Tucson Theatre Foundation for the preservation of the Fox Tucson Theatre in Tucson (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $100,000 Town of Springerville for renovations to the historic Old Springerville Elementary School (Economic Development Initiative) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $1,000,000 University of Arizona, College of Pharmacy for the U.S. Mexico Border Environmental Protection Program (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $250,000 City of Stafford for construction of a wastewater treatment plant (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $500,000 City of St. Johns for new water transmission pipeline construction (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $250,000 City of Avondale for wastewater infrastructure improvements (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $200,000 City of Goodyear for water infrastructure improvements (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $150,000 City of Chandler for the Chandler Arsenic Mitigation Program (State and Tribal Assistance Grants - EPA) NBR, H VAHUD 05
AZ $500,000 U.S.-Mexico Border Environmental Protection Program at the University of Arizona (Environmental Programs and Management - EPA) NBR VAHUD 05

[al_bundy]

It's only pork if it's in another district

the people complaining about pork would be ready to revolt if the federal government stopped funding some unknown museaum in their home town

[Venusian]

A museum in my town got 100k. we can live without it. they can take it back

[classicman2]

A museum in my town got 100k. we can live without it. they can take it back

Thank you, Mr. Fiscal Conservative. :lol:

[OldDude]

What's the annual budget?

27 billion dollars is just a blip on the radar.

There's around 100 million tax returns filed per year. Thats an average of $270 per tax return, more for high tax returns, less for low tax ones. So I'm guessing my share is $500 or more. I'll take it. Thanks.

Keep in mind this is only the pork they caught. We all know greased pigs are slippery little bastards and I'm sure a lot got away.

[al_bundy]

The government tried to cut agriculture subsidies last year since all of that is pork. Look at the firestorm that ensued. Suddenly there were sob stories about family farms going under.

[classicman2]

The government tried to cut agriculture subsidies last year since all of that is pork. Look at the firestorm that ensued. Suddenly there were sob stories about family farms going under.

:lol:

Sob stories - how many family farmers did we have 50 years ago?

How many do we have today?

[al_bundy]

the real numbers don't matter half as much as what you see on television

[sfsdfd]

the real numbers don't matter half as much as what you see on television
Yeah - it's better to ignore the facts, and focus on the drama.

(I know absolutely nothing about the state of agriculture. Just found your comment amusing and wanted to post a snarky response.)

- David Stein

[al_bundy]

i don't know what the numbers are either and don't care. But every time this thing comes up for a vote there is always the plight of the family farmer playing on television.

people go to the store they don't care where the food comes from. But suddenly they are supposed to care that the evil government is taking away some farmer's livelyhood because he can't run a successful business on his own.

[classicman2]

Why can't the family farmer run a successful business on his own?

Look at the price of a bushel of wheat in 1955. Compare that to the price of a bushel of wheat in 2005.

Now look at the price of a John Deere tractor or combine or bailer or whatever in 1955, and compare that to the price in 2005.

That'll give you some indication why.

[JasonF]

Why can't the family farmer run a successful business on his own?

Probably the same reason the family cobbler can't compete with Nike, and the family butcher can't compete with Safeway. Why is the family farmer's way of life inherently more worthy of production than the family cooper's, the family blacksmith's, or (not to put too fine a point on it) the family buggy-whip maker's?

As for CAGW and their annual reports, I vote we approriate them $173,000 for a state of the art pig suit. That ought to shut them up. ;)

[al_bundy]

maybe the family farmer needs to merge with a few other family farmers and take advantage of economies of scale?

[classicman2]

Probably the same reason the family cobbler can't compete with Nike, and the family butcher can't compete with Safeway. Why is the family farmer's way of life inherently more worthy of production than the family cooper's, the family blacksmith's, or (not to put too fine a point on it) the family buggy-whip maker's?

As for CAGW and their annual reports, I vote we approriate them $173,000 for a state of the art pig suit. That ought to shut them up. ;)

You don't eat buggy whips. :rolleyes:

[wendersfan]

I don't know how this thread became all about the agriculture industry, but IMO the only way for the much-lauded "family farmer" will survive in the future economy is by going organic. This is a market that, as far as I can tell, is neglected by the agribusiness giants, and is growing almost daily. Organic foods are the status symbol of the new century, and as such command ridiculously high prices. I would imagine it would be a lot easier for smaller farms to convert than the larger ones.

[classicman2]

maybe the family farmer needs to merge with a few other family farmers and take advantage of economies of scale?

They do to some extent.

[JasonF]

You don't eat buggy whips. :rolleyes:

I wear shoes, but that didn't keep the town cobbler in business.

[OldDude]

You don't eat buggy whips. :rolleyes:

Before you moan too loud about the poor family farmer, you should probably look for statistics on who the vast majority of the farm pork really goes too.

I'm 99.9% sure the correct answer is large agribusiness but I wouldn't want to cut into the joy of self-discovery. -smile-

[classicman2]

Provide a link that shows 99% of the farm subsidies go to large agribsiness.

[OldDude]

Provide a link that shows 99% of the farm subsidies go to large agribsiness.

I never claimed 99% goes to agribusiness. Read it again. But more than half does, and I think more than 2/3.

[classicman2]

Too much of it does.

[Red Dog]

Before you moan too loud about the poor family farmer, you should probably look for statistics on who the vast majority of the farm pork really goes too.

I'm 99.9% sure the correct answer is large agribusiness but I wouldn't want to cut into the joy of self-discovery. -smile-


Reminds of one of the segments on the John Stossel ABC special from several months back: Myths, Lies, & Nasty Behavior....

No. 5 — NASTY BEHAVIOR — Welfare for Farmers

President Bush gave away $83 billion of your money to farmers when he signed the 2002 Farm Security and Rural Investment Act, and Congress applauded him for it. Americans like the idea of supporting family farms, but you'd be surprised to learn where that money goes.

Hundreds of those farmers who benefited from our generosity live in New York City. Some of those farmers who are collecting farm subsidies are pretty well-off. Mike Sonnenfeldt, for example, lives in a building where Steven Spielberg and Steve Martin have apartments.

Sonnenfeldt gets a cotton subsidy from the government. "I bought a piece of property, that got traded for a piece of property … And I'm not sure exactly even why I get it," he said.

Most of the money goes to real farms big agribusiness, actually. But politicians talk about family farms.

Some subsidies do go to family farms, like one run by Fred and Larry Starrh. But does that entitle them to $3.5 million of your money? That's what they've received over seven years.

I called them welfare queens — and they objected. "Change it to king," Larry Starrh joked, "Welfare kings. Because 'queens' is bad in California, believe me."

The Starrhs grow mostly cotton on their 12,000-acre spread in California. It's hard to think of them as needy with all that land, but costs have increased faster than prices. Subsidies, they say, are just a small part of their income, but they and their 100 employees depend on them. Without them, they say, they can't make a profit.

Now most businesses that can't make a profit go out of business. Woolworth closed. So did TWA. So do 20,000 restaurants every year. It's that freedom to fail that's helped make America as prosperous as she is, because it frees people to do more productive things.

But subsidized farms get different treatment. When Fred and Larry can't make a profit, taxpayers give them a handout.

"I don't look at it as a handout whatsoever. I absolutely refuse to accept that," Fred Starrh said.

But it is. It's welfare.

Fred Starrh said he looks at it as "a way to maintain a viable agriculture in this country."

That's the myth. Subsidies don't maintain a viable agriculture. Lettuce isn't subsidized. In fact, most crops are not. Not peas or potatoes or tomatoes. Not plums, peaches, broccoli, green beans. There's no shortage of any of these. Yet Fred and Larry say farming can't survive without subsidies.

"If I can't grow my 6,000 acres of cotton because the subsidy's gone &Where am I gonna go with that acreage? Do I just idle it?" Larry Starrh asked.

I don't know. Where do I go if "20/20's" ratings go down? That's life.

Subsidies are a like a heroin fix. They feel good, but they lead to more subsidies. The first subsidy makes cotton more expensive. That causes a problem for manufacturers, so we give them another subsidy. That subsidy hurts poor farmers worldwide, so we send them more money in foreign aid. But that's not enough for our cotton farmers. We give them another subsidy for the water they use and another subsidy to advertise their cotton overseas.

If they can't make a profit, I don't think they deserve a gift from taxpayers just so they can keep farming.

"Well I totally disagree with you John, and the legislature is with us at this point, so we're winning, and you're losing," Fred Starrh said.

He's right. And you're paying for it.

[classicman2]

Hundreds of those farmers who benefited from our generosity live in New York City. Some of those farmers who are collecting farm subsidies are pretty well-off.

A nebulous term like hundreds. Even if it's hundreds - how many farmers receive subsidies?

[Breakfast with Girls]

Why can't the family farmer run a successful business on his own?Family farmer! Bullshit! <i>Family farmers</i> are just a blip on the radar of farms in this country. That money goes to massive corporations, period.

I would be perfectly fine not supporting crap like ethanol, thanks.

[classicman2]

Fact: It's tough enough getting any energy bill through Congress - almost impossible.

Without ethanol subsidies, it is impossible.

Therefore, Breakfast with Girls, I must assume that you don't support energy legislation.

That's the political realty folks.

[bwvanh114]

Fact: It's tough enough getting any energy bill through Congress - almost impossible.

Without ethanol subsidies, it is impossible.

Therefore, Breakfast with Girls, I must assume that you don't support energy legislation.

That's the political realty folks.Or he thinks subsidizing ethanol is dumb. Fact: I think it's dumb and I support energy legislation.

[classicman2]

Why do you believe it's dumb?

Do you believe renters ought to be 'subsidizing' those buying a home?

Just a check on your consistency. ;)

[bwvanh114]

Why do you believe it's dumb?I believe it's dumb because the money could be spent on alternative fuel technology that actually shows good results. BMW's hydrogen powered 750Hi for example, or Toyota's hybrid engine for another. BMW's engine does not use a single drop of gas to run it.

[OldDude]

Fact: It's tough enough getting any energy bill through Congress - almost impossible.

Without ethanol subsidies, it is impossible.

Therefore, Breakfast with Girls, I must assume that you don't support energy legislation.

That's the political realty folks.

You are right, but if the subsidy went to soybean (or canola) growers instead of corn growers, we would get a hell of a lot more net renewable energy from biodiesel than we do from ethanol. Of the energy in a gallon of biodiesel, it is around 80-85% net (the rest is offset by energy used to plow, plant, fertilizer, etc) For ethanol, it is 30-35% net, the rest offset by energy used in the agriculture, and distilling. If we are determined to have subsidies, we might as well get some energy out of it.

[OldDude]

I believe it's dumb because the money could be spent on alternative fuel technology that actually shows good results. BMW's hydrogen powered 750Hi for example, or Toyota's hybrid engine for another. BMW's engine does not use a single drop of gas to run it.

And where does the hydrogen come from?

Answers:
1) Steam reformation of natural gas. The natural gas could run an engine too, but you take out 1/3 of the energy (it ends up as CO2) to make the hydrogen, now only 2/3 the original energy and use it to run a car. This uses 50% more natural gas than would be required to run the car.

2) You burn fossil fuel to make electricity (39% efficient) You use it to electrolyze water (70% efficient). You use the hydrogen to run the car and go 27% as far as you could go on the original fossil fuel.

A fuel cell is more efficient than an ICE, so you might offset the losses in hydrogen generation. To run an internal combustion engine on hydrogen and claim you are helping the environment is criminally bad science, intended to win the votes of idiots.

[bwvanh114]

And where does the hydrogen come from? (snip stuff I didn't know) To run an internal combustion engine on hydrogen and claim you are helping the environment is criminally bad science, intended to win the votes of idiots.Interesting, I'm gonna have to go some google reading. :(

[Jason]

AZ $7,900,000 Luke Air Force Base ATFP Litchfield Road Underpass and Entry Point replacement (Air Force) NBR, H MILCON 05

Just how is this pork?

[OldDude]

Interesting, I'm gonna have to go some google reading. :(

Please do. There are good sites on the thermodynamic efficiency of both processes at useful rates. On the steam reformation, make sure they count the heat to drive the reaction (it is endothermic). I've seen some sites that only count the natural gas into the reaction chamber vs hydrogen out. I guess the fire under the reaction vessel comes from magic. (It comes in part from burning the CO from the "water gas" reaction to CO2, but that is not enough heat to drive the process)

Uh, warning, they get very technical, very quick. But if you like thermo, they are quite interesting.

[bwvanh114]

So far I only found a bunch of generalities about solar, dams, or other things providing the power to zap water and create hydrogen. Unfortunately, I'm not finding a lot of specifics.

[OldDude]

Try specific phrases "steam reformation" "water gas" or "synthesis gas" for the first

For the second use both "water" and "electrolysis" but not as a phrase

[OldDude]

So far I only found a bunch of generalities about solar, dams, or other things providing the power to zap water and create hydrogen. Unfortunately, I'm not finding a lot of specifics.

Article on where hydrogen comes from. Of the 45 million metric tons, the US produces about 9. 96% comes from fossil fuel, 4% from electrolysis.
http://www.intuser.net/6/1/renew_24.php

[bwvanh114]

Article on where hydrogen comes from. Of the 45 million metric tons, the US produces about 9. 96% comes from fossil fuel, 4% from electrolysis.
http://www.intuser.net/6/1/renew_24.php
Thanks for update. 4% is tiny. We should be on par with France with nuclear power plants. They get 80% of their energy from nuclear power versus our 20%. If we had more nuclear plants, we could make more hydrogen and thus getting off of Middle East oil. Ah, I can dream can't I?

[classicman2]

That's what it is - a dream.

Unfortuantely, many many people (other than the environmentalists who oppose most things concerning energy) oppose nuclear energy. It scares them.

[bwvanh114]

Unfortuantely, many many people (other than the environmentalists who oppose most things concerning energy) oppose nuclear energy. It scares them.How about you? I think of all the "mainstream" alternative fuel choices, that nuclear makes the most sense. Wind and solar require too much real estate.

[classicman2]

I'm all for nuclear. It's the quickest, probably most economical, and safest way and would have the most impact in the least amount of time. The technology is already here.

[bwvanh114]

Has anyone seen a nuclear plant with anything other than two towers? I've only seen 2. Never less, never more. I wonder if existing plants can have more towers slapped on.

[jdodd]

Has anyone seen a nuclear plant with anything other than two towers? I've only seen 2. Never less, never more. I wonder if existing plants can have more towers slapped on.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040325/040326_threemile_hmed_9a.h2.jpg

[OldDude]

Has anyone seen a nuclear plant with anything other than two towers? I've only seen 2. Never less, never more. I wonder if existing plants can have more towers slapped on.

The towers are for cooling. If you want more power, you need a bigger reactor and a bigger generator. Of course, them, you will probably need more or bigger cooling towers.

[bwvanh114]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040325/040326_threemile_hmed_9a.h2.jpgThat has to be photoshop... more than 2 does not exist. :) Where is that one at?

[OldDude]

That has to be photoshop... more than 2 does not exist. :) Where is that one at?

I think it is Three Mile Island, not the poster child for the nuclear power industry.

[bwvanh114]

I think it is Three Mile Island, not the poster child for the nuclear power industry.lol! I've driven by TMI a buncha times and never noticed a 3rd and 4th tower.

Well, they can expand some more. I think they can fit a coupla more towers in there.

[JasonF]

That has to be photoshop... more than 2 does not exist. :) Where is that one at?

Right in your state of Pennsylvania. Here's a hint -- the island those towers are on is longer than two miles, but shorter than four miles.

Anyway, there are two reactors there, so four cooling towers for two reactors fits with your theory.

[JasonF]

I think it is Three Mile Island, not the poster child for the nuclear power industry.

I draw a positive lesson out of TMI -- it was basically a case of everything going wrong that could possibly go wrong, and even so, there was no loss of life, injury, or other deleterious effect on people (the radiation exposure to the average person near TMI was equivalent to a third of what you would get from a chest x-ray). Moreover, since then (and partially due to lessons learned at TMI), we've revised our safety precautions with respect to nuclear power plants.

[OldDude]

I draw a positive lesson out of TMI -- it was basically a case of everything going wrong that could possibly go wrong, and even so, there was no loss of life, injury, or other deleterious effect on people (the radiation exposure to the average person near TMI was equivalent to a third of what you would get from a chest x-ray). Moreover, since then (and partially due to lessons learned at TMI), we've revised our safety precautions with respect to nuclear power plants.


I personally agree with that assessment. It shows we have the necessary safety precautions in place, unlike Chernobyl.

However, I think the "average person" ignores the facts and considers the two equally bad. Certainly the anti-nuke forces in this country promote that view, causing us to build more coal fired plants which actually emit more radiation, due to radioactive impurities in the coal (as well as acid rain, SO2, CO2, mercury, etc).

[JasonF]

I personally agree with that assessment. It shows we have the necessary safety precautions in place, unlike Chernobyl.

However, I think the "average person" ignores the facts and considers the two equally bad. Certainly the anti-nuke forces in this country promote that view, causing us to build more coal fired plants which actually emit more radiation, due to radioactive impurities in the coal (as well as acid rain, SO2, CO2, mercury, etc).

I agree with all of the above, and only want to add that Chernobyl was an entirely different type of reactor from anything we us or have used in the U.S. Chernobyl was a graphite-moderated reactor, and we only use water-moderated reactors in the U.S. Graphite reactors in general (particularly the RBMK design used in the Soviet Union) are generally considered less safe than water-moderated reactors due to the possibility of the graphite catching fire (the exception is the pebble-bed design, which incorporates specific fire-prevention procedure not present in the older British or Soviet graphite reactor designs).

[Breakfast with Girls]

Actually, I would guess that of the people who dislike nuclear power, most have a problem with nuclear waste, not so much the plants themselves.

[bhk]

We should send all the toxic nuclear waste produced to NJ. It isn't like anyone is going to notice a difference.