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View Full Version : The Politics of Churlishness


wendersfan
04-01-05, 08:13 AM
<b>GIVING GEORGE W. BUSH HIS DUE ON DEMOCRACY.
<a href = "http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi%3D20050411%26s%3Dperetz041105">The Politics of Churlishness</a></b>
by Martin Peretz
Post date: 03.31.05
Issue date: 04.11.05

If George W. Bush were to discover a cure for cancer, his critics would denounce him for having done it unilaterally, without adequate consultation, with a crude disregard for the sensibilities of others. He pursued his goal obstinately, they would say, without filtering his thoughts through the medical research establishment. And he didn't share his research with competing labs and thus caused resentment among other scientists who didn't have the resources or the bold--perhaps even somewhat reckless--instincts to pursue the task as he did. And he completely ignored the World Health Organization, showing his contempt for international institutions. Anyway, a cure for cancer is all fine and nice, but what about aids?

No, the president has not discovered a cure for cancer. But there is a pathology, a historical pathology, that he has attacked with unprecedented vigor and with unprecedented success. I refer, of course, to the political culture of the Middle East, which the president may actually have changed. And he has accomplished this genuinely momentous transformation in ways that virtually the entire foreign affairs clerisy--the cold-blooded Brent Scowcroft realist Republicans and almost all the Democrats--never thought possible. Or, perhaps, in ways some of them thought positively undesirable. Bush, it now seems safe to say, is one of the great surprises in modern U.S. history. Nothing about his past suggested that he harbored these ideals nor the qualities of character required for their realization. Right up to the moment Bush became president, I was convinced that his mind, at least on matters Levantine, belonged to his father and to James Baker III, whose worldview seemed to be defined by the pecuniary prejudice of oil and Texas: Keep the ruling Arabs happy. But I was wrong, and, in light of what has already been achieved in the Middle East, I am glad to say so. Most American liberals, alas, enjoy no similar gladness. They are not exactly pleased by the positive results of Bush's campaign in the Middle East. They deny and resent and begrudge and snipe. They are trapped in the politics of churlishness.

The achievements of Bush's foreign policy abroad represent a revolution in the foreign policy culture at home. The traditional Republican mentality that was so perfectly and meanly represented by Bush père and Baker precluded the United States from pressing the Arabs about reform--about anything--for decades. Not Iraq about its tyranny and its record of genocide, not Syria about its military occupation of Lebanon and its own brutal Baathist dictatorship, not Egypt about loosening the crippling bonds of a statist economy and an authoritarian political system, not Saudi Arabia about its championing of the Wahhabi extremism that made its own country so desiccated and the world so dangerous, and certainly not the Palestinians about the fantasy that they had won all the wars that they had actually lost and were therefore entitled to the full rewards due them from their victories. This was the state of U.S.-Arab relations in 2001: The United States was actually more frightened of the Arabs than they were of us. The extraordinary report of the 9/11 Commission about the delinquent reactions to the decade-long lead-up to the catastrophe of September 11 only confirms this impression of official U.S. pusillanimity.

The Clinton administration seized on every possible excuse--from the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, right through the atrocities in Kenya and Tanzania, to the attack on the USS Cole--not to respond meaningfully to Osama bin Laden. This aggressively dilatory approach was set early on, when Bill Clinton's first secretary of state, dead-man-walking Warren Christopher, proposed that a special bureau be set up to deal with drugs, crime, and terrorism in a single office, as if terrorism is a problem for policemen and not for strategists. The 9/11 Commission Report records that only congressional opposition aborted Christopher's concoction. Attorney General Janet Reno always worried about retaliation against any moves by the United States; Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, preoccupied with her "push for a peace agreement between the Palestinians and Israelis," was concerned that military strikes against the bin Laden operations in Afghanistan would strengthen the Taliban; National Security Adviser Sandy Berger fretted that a shoot-out might be seen as an assassination, and, always the trade lawyer, he consistently held out hope that some sort of carrot would turn the Taliban against bin Laden; General Anthony Zinni was more concerned about human rights abuses by the Taliban than by its hospitality to Al Qaeda and worried also that a mosque might be damaged in the course of bombing operations; Pentagon officials warned that a missile aimed at bin Laden might kill a visiting Emirati prince instead (but why was a UAE prince hanging out with bin Laden anyway?); and CIA Director George Tenet had so many objections to decisive action that it would be nearly impossible to enumerate them.

Clinton, it is true, resolved to eliminate bin Laden, but soon he eliminated his desire to eliminate him. The Clinton administration's true desire was to arrest bin Laden, to indict him, and to put him on trial--to "bring him to justice," as these men and women pompously exhorted each other. Except Berger also feared that bin Laden would be acquitted in a U.S. court of law. CIA personnel trying to cut a deal with the Northern Alliance to capture bin Laden warned that, if the Afghan "tribals"--that's the orientalism of liberals--did not bring him in alive but, heaven forbid, actually killed him, they would not be paid for their labors. The charismatic leader of the Afghan opposition and our best contact with it, Ahmed Shah Massoud, who was assassinated two days before September 11, thought he was dealing with madmen.

The new Bush presidency also found it hard to wrap its hands around the Al Qaeda phenomenon and preferred to focus instead on Star Wars redivivus--until, of course, a catastrophe in Lower Manhattan concentrated its mind. What the Bush administration gradually came to realize was that fighting the Muslim terrorist international could not be done in a vacuum. If the Islamic and Arab orbits were to continue to revolve around sanguinary tyrannies, there would be no popular basis in civil society to rob the cult of suicidal murder of its prestige. So, rather than being a distraction from the struggle against the armed rage suffusing these at once taut and eruptive polities, confronting their governments was actually intrinsic to that struggle. The Bush administration recognized that removing the effect means removing the cause. The 9/11 Commission seems to have grasped this, too, at least in its citations of Richard Clarke's assertion that bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, Al Qaeda and the Iraqi Baath could be natural allies.

History has never traveled in the Middle East as fast as it has during the last two years. In this place where time seems to have stopped, time has suddenly accelerated. It may be true (more likely, it is not) that a deep yearning for democracy has been latent throughout the region for a long time. There certainly was a basis in reality for skepticism about the Arabs' hospitability to the opening of their societies. Whatever the proper historical and cultural analysis of the past, however, the fact is that democracy did not begin even to breathe until the small coalition of Western nations led by the United States destroyed the most ruthless dictatorship in the area.

Democracy in Mesopotamia? A fantasy, surely. But not quite. Iraq was, despite its unbelievably bloody history, a rather sophisticated place. During the nineteenth century, many Baghdadis went abroad to study. Modern nationalism sank some roots. Baghdad itself had a plurality of Jews, learned and mercantile, until they fled to the new state of Israel. An ancient minority of Christians survived into the age of Sunni pogroms and survives--though in lesser numbers--still. The Kurds grew relatively tolerant in the areas they dominated. And the majority Shia, though viciously persecuted from the founding of the Iraqi state after World War I--with the not-so-passive consent of the British colonials--and condemned to near-genocide by Saddam's revolutionary republic, have generally maintained the restraint that piety sometimes allows. After a year and a half of nearly daily Sunni bloodletting among them, the Shia have not wreaked the vengeance they surely could and, equally as surely, some of them long to take.

The U.S. liberation-occupation has now tried to cobble together these diverging Iraqis into the beginnings of a democratic regime. Wonder of wonders, these estranged cousins have shown some talent in the art of compromise; and trying to make this polity work is hardly an effort undertaken without courage. The judge who was killed with his son outside his home on his way to work at the tribunal that will try Saddam knew that danger stalked him, and so did the rest of the victims of Sunni bloodlust. This bloodlust evokes an unmistakable but macabre schadenfreude among many critics of the war, who want nothing of history except to be proved right. It is as if suicide bombings and other sorts of helter-skelter murder were a just judgment on the wrongdoings--yes, there have been wrongdoings, some of them really disgusting--of the Bush administration. And, even if ridding western Asia of Saddam is reluctantly accepted as justified, what blogger couldn't have accomplished what came after more deftly?

In any case, this churlish orthodoxy tells us that the Sunnis need to be enticed into the political game lest it be deemed illegitimate. In this scenario, it is the murderers who withhold or bestow moral authority. John F. Burns, the defiantly honest New York Times journalist in Baghdad, who has consistently reported the ambiguous and truly tangled realities of the war, now sees the Baathist and Sunni warriors in retreat, if not actually beaten. What will probably happen in Iraq is a version of what endured for decades in Lebanon: a representative government rooted in sect--argumentative, perhaps even corrupt, but functioning. Lebanon was never perfect, but it worked reasonably well, until the aggressive Palestinian guests took to commanding Shia turf to establish a "state within a state." (This was a phenomenon that the nimble Thomas L. Friedman did not much report on in the first leg of his journey From Beirut to Jerusalem, confiding that fear for his life and livelihood kept him from deviating too far from the Palestinian story as they wanted it told. Eason Jordan avant la lettre.)

The fine fruits of the Bush administration's indifference to international opinion may be seen now in Lebanon, too. What is happening there is the most concrete intra-Arab consequence of the Iraq war. Nothing could be done in Lebanon without Syria's sanction, no government decision without the approval of Damascus, no business without a hefty Damascene percentage. Syrian troops and spies were everywhere. Lebanese of all sects and clans have been restive for years. But they lived in the fearful memory of their mad civil war, the civil war of the daily car bombs in the marketplace. Suddenly, the elections in Iraq, Bush's main achievement there, exhilarating and inspiring, sprung loose the psychological impediments that shackled the Lebanese to Syria. Even if the outcomes will not be exactly the same, this was Prague and Berlin at the end of the long subjugation to their neighbor to the east. More immediately, this was Kiev only a few months ago. The first mass protest against the Syrians and their satrap prime minister drew tens of thousands. Then there was the much larger crowd of pro-Syria Shia from the south, a disconcerting moment. But, after that, a multitude so huge that it defied counting, and so diverse. This was the true cedar revolution, a revolution of the young, for independence, for freedom from the failing but always brutal Damascus regime next door. Will Vladimir Putin be so stupid as to invest credit and arms in the stiff and callow son of Hafez Al Assad?

None of this happened by spontaneous generation. Yes, there were lucky breaks: Yasir Arafat died, Syria conspired somehow to have former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri assassinated. And yes, the new directions are young, and the autocratic-theocratic political culture of the Middle East is old, and it is once again too early to proclaim that the mission has been accomplished. As the ancient Israelite king observed, let he who girds his harness not boast as he who takes it off. But the mission is nonetheless real, and far along, and it is showing thrilling accomplishments. It is simply stupid, empirically and philosophically, to deny that all or any of this would have happened without the deeply unpopular but historically grand initiative of Bush. The hundreds of thousands of young people in Martyrs' Square knew that they had Bush's backing. The president seems even to have enticed Jacques Chirac into a more active policy toward Lebanon: For him, too, Syria had to go. If this satisfies Chirac's yearning for la gloire, so be it. (But it will not be so easy to maintain such alliances: Already, Security Council members are said to be working up plans to put the future of Lebanon under the protective care of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, when nothing in unifil's past--nothing--should provide confidence that it is able, or even disposed, to act decisively against Arab brutality.)

What is occurring in Saudi Arabia and Egypt is also heartening, if more than a bit tentative. Under pressure from the Bush administration, the Saudis have allowed the first local elections in the country's history: an election to bodies that cannot make big decisions, and an election limited to male voters, naturally. But infidels (that is, Shia) may also vote. By Saudi standards, this is the revolution of 1848. In Egypt, responding to the insistence of the Bush people, President Hosni Mubarak has allowed that he will permit opponents to run in the presidential elections against him. Mubarak has no chance of losing ... this time. Maybe, however, the son will not be the father's inevitable successor, and maybe the Arab custom of turning dictatorships into dynasties will also come to an end, at least in Cairo. And, in the brave figure of Ayman Nour, the world now has a hero of the anti-Mubarak forces to celebrate and to support. In both countries, to be sure, what we are seeing are the bare beginnings of a democratic process, the very bare beginnings. It will be years, maybe decades, before these become democratic polities. And there is always the chance--as was the case in Algeria, once the jewel in the shabby crown of the "nonaligned"--that the vox populi will vote wrong. In the Algerian instance, it had to vote wrong: The choice was between national fascists and pious fascists. Take your pick.

So the situation is certainly complex. But complexity is not a warrant for despair. The significant fact is that Bush's obsession with the democratization of the region is working. Have Democrats begun to wonder how it came to pass that this noble cause became the work of Republicans? They should wonder if they care to regain power. They should recall that Clinton (and the sanctimonious Jimmy Carter even more so) had absolutely no interest in trying to modify the harsh political character of the Arab world. What they aspired to do was to mollify the dictators--to prefer the furthering of the peace process to the furthering of the conditions that make peace possible. The Democrats were the ones who were always elevating Arafat. He was at the very center of their road map. After he stalked out of a meeting room in Paris during cease-fire talks in late 2000, Albright actually ran in breathless pursuit to lure him back. It was the Democrats who perpetuated Arafat's demonic sway over the Palestinians, and it was the Democrats who sustained him among the other Arabs. And so the cause of Arab democracy was left for the Republicans to pursue. After September 11, the cause became a matter also of U.S. national security.

The great diversion from the real politics of the Arab countries, and from the prospect of political reform, was the Palestinian grievance against Israel. In the early years of their conflict with the Zionists, the Palestinians thought that these countries would fight their battles for them, at the negotiating table and on the battlefield, which they did. But what happened in reality was that the various Arabs exploited the Palestinians as pawns in their own ambitions to pick off pieces of Palestine for themselves. That is why there was no Palestinian state in the West Bank or Gaza after the armistice of 1949, as one might have expected from the Partition Plan of 1947. The West Bank was annexed to Jordan. Gaza was not annexed but administratively attached to Egypt. Syria's armies won no decisive battles against the Jews; otherwise, they also would have taken a piece of Palestine. In any event, until the Six Days War, the Palestinian groan against the Jews was focused on the very existence of Israel within narrow and perilous borders, without strategic depth, without old Jerusalem, without the West Bank, without Gaza.

And Arab governments deflected the ample internal plaints of their own peoples with mobilized hysteria against the Jews. Every domestic grievance was dispersed with rousing rhetoric against Israel. The sun of Gamal Abdel Nasser rose and set with Cairo's failures in its wars with Israel. Hatred of the Zionists levitated the Baath dictatorships of both Iraq and Syria. In the end, after five wars and two intifadas, the Palestinians still seethed. But it had all come to nothing. And, finally, the angel of death unilaterally attacked Arafat. Bush had had the good sense to pay no attention to him, despite the urgent imprecations of the usual apologists: the European Union, the United Nations, France, Russia, and the editorial page of the Times. Had Bush made even a single accommodation to Arafat, Arafat's way in the world would have been enshrined in Palestinian lore for yet another generation as the only way.

But Bush didn't, and Ariel Sharon didn't, either. Now that there is some real hope among both Israelis and Palestinians about the future, let us examine the reasons for it. The first is that Bush made no gestures to the hyperbolic fantasies of Palestinian politics. He gave them one dose of reality after another. The second is that he gave Israel the confidence that he would not trade its security for anything--which means that Israel is now willing to cede much on its own. (Israeli dovishness for American hawkishness: This was always the only way.) The third is that Bush is holding Sharon to his commitments, and everyone who is at all rational on these issues now sees the Israeli prime minister as a man of his word and a man of history. After all, Sharon has broken with much of his own political party. Not for nothing is he now the designated assassination target of the Israeli hard right. Still, holding Sharon to his word also means holding Mahmoud Abbas to his. So far, the record is mixed. The serious shutting down of the terrorist militias has not yet begun, but the Palestinian Authority did run reasonably free local elections, and they were not accompanied by killing. It is true that Hamas won more of these races than makes either Sharon or Abbas comfortable, and its strength may even increase in the coming parliamentary voting. But this, too, is a part of the gamble of democracy; and, to the extent that the Palestinians are taking this gamble and following the newest fashion among the other Arabs, it is a tribute to the inked purple fingers of Iraq, which is to say, a tribute to Bush and his simplistic but effective trust in the polling place.

It has been heartening, in recent months, to watch some Democratic senators searching for ways out of the politics of churlishness. Some liberals appear to have understood that history is moving swiftly and in a good direction, and that history has no time for their old and mistaken suspicion of American power in the service of American values. One does not have to admire a lot about George W. Bush to admire what he has so far wrought. One need only be a thoughtful American with an interest in proliferating liberalism around the world. And, if liberals are unwilling to proliferate liberalism, then conservatives will. Rarely has there been a sweeter irony.

<i>Martin Peretz is editor-in-chief of TNR.</i>

classicman2
04-01-05, 10:02 AM
Would you call Dr. Peretz a 'Scoop Jackson Liberal.'

Conservatives should read The New Republic once in awhile. They might discover that all liberals are not liberals. ;)

wendersfan
04-01-05, 10:10 AM
Would you call Dr. Peretz a 'Scoop Jackson Liberal.'

Conservatives should read The New Republic once in awhile. They might discover that all liberals are not liberals. ;)I don't know what to think of Peretz or TNR, other than I really like reading the magazine again, after a long time. Back in "the day" they seemed to be leading exponents of what became known as neoliberalism, which at the time annoyed me to no end because I was an unrepentant left-wing/liberal/pinko/progressive in the early-mid 80s. I considered guys like Peretz and Kondracke to be sell-outs of the worst kind.

Probably the reason I like reading TNR now is because they aren't afraid to admit when the Democrats are fucking up royally, or when the Republicans have good ideas, in spite of the liberal editorial slant of the mag. And I agree, I think a lot of conservatives should read the magazine to understand that not all liberals are of the knee-jerk variety, and I think a lot of the liberals on this forum should read it, too, and maybe they'll start to gain some realism in their world views. ;)

Is Peretz a "Scoop" Jackson liberal? Perhaps. He's certainly been around long enough to understand how the world works. God knows we could use some more "Scoop" Jackson liberals about now.

sfsdfd
04-01-05, 11:06 AM
<img src="http://clinton1.nara.gov/White_House/Family/images/raw/bill-arafat-rabin-treaty.gif">

It's still way too early to declare victory. We've seen the permanence of such cooperation before.

- David Stein

bwvanh114
04-01-05, 11:25 AM
It's still way too early to declare victory. We've seen the permanence of such cooperation before.Conversely, it is too early to call it a failure.

wendersfan
04-01-05, 11:30 AM
Conversely, it is too early to call it a failure.And strangely enough, nowhere in the quite long piece did I see it called either. It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that anyone who doesn't consider the administration's policies in the Middle East a total and complete failure is judged by those on the left to be a minion of Satan. To consider the small possibility that our policy even <i>might</i> be successful at some point is tantamount to dining on newborn babies each and every morning.

bwvanh114
04-01-05, 11:34 AM
And strangely enough, nowhere in the quite long piece did I see it called either. It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that anyone who doesn't consider the administration's policies in the Middle East a total and complete failure is judged by those on the left to be a minion of Satan. To consider the small possibility that our policy even <i>might</i> be successful at some point is tantamount to dining on newborn babies each and every morning.Yeap.

classicman2
04-01-05, 11:34 AM
At least Dennis Ross, a man that I have the greatest respect for, because, IMO, he knows about the region and the conflict than most anyone else, is hopeful.

eXcentris
04-01-05, 11:41 AM
I'm prepared to give Bush some credit for the progress we currently see in the Middle East but the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? He basically did squat and ignored that conflict for 4 years and we are supposed to believe that this "ignoring" and "paying no attention" was in fact a brilliant strategy? In this particular case, Bush is just lucky the Arafat died.

sfsdfd
04-01-05, 11:47 AM
And strangely enough, nowhere in the quite long piece did I see it called either.
I dunno - stuff like this is reminiscent of a particular banner I saw once on a Navy carrier:
I refer, of course, to the political culture of the Middle East, which the president may actually have changed. And he has accomplished this genuinely momentous transformation in ways that virtually the entire foreign affairs clerisy--the cold-blooded Brent Scowcroft realist Republicans and almost all the Democrats--never thought possible.
It's a little too early to start patting ourselves on the back... particularly since our immediately previous effort looks kind of shaky. Remember when we declared victory in Afghanistan? Three years later, we're still getting headlines like this:

<a href="http://www.keralanext.com/news/indexread.asp?id=170539">Springtime in Afghanistan brings surge in Taliban attacks</a>

I'm not declaring failure. I'm just stating that it's still far too early to declare anything. Of course, many here have criticized that stance as a stalling tactic or stubborn partisanship; I call it realism, based on the long history of the region.

- David Stein

wendersfan
04-01-05, 11:50 AM
I'm prepared to give Bush some credit for the progress we currently see in the Middle East but the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? He basically did squat and ignored that conflict for 4 years and we are supposed to believe that this "ignoring" and "paying no attention" was in fact a brilliant strategy? In this particular case, Bush is just lucky the Arafat died.This was my major problem with the piece, that it sort of brushed aside how crucial Arafat's death was in changing the landscape of that conflict. It would be similar to someone stating that Castro's death would offer some assistance in political reform in Cuba, when in truth it would be vital for that to happen.

classicman2
04-01-05, 11:54 AM
I'm prepared to give Bush some credit for the progress we currently see in the Middle East but the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? He basically did squat and ignored that conflict for 4 years and we are supposed to believe that this "ignoring" and "paying no attention" was in fact a brilliant strategy? In this particular case, Bush is just lucky the Arafat died.

I don't believe that's a fair characterization of the Bush policy.

The Bush administration decided that they would adopt a more 'hands-off' policy than the 'hands-on' policy of the Clinton Administration.

The Clinton Administration (at least until 1998) put all of its eggs in the Oslo Accords basket. Clearly that was a mistake, and Clinton realized it (rather late in the game) that it was a mistake.

JasonF
04-01-05, 12:05 PM
I take a little bit of issue with his heaping of all of the problems of the past 30 years at the feet of the Democrats. Reagan and Bush were just as willing to coddle Middle Eastern autocrats as Clinton was, and as for Carter, he brokered an Israeli-Egyptian peace that stands to this day. And like David, I'm a little more cautious in my optimism than Mr. Peretz -- we've clearly planted the seed of democracy, and it has begun to sprout, but it is far too soon to believe that it has taken root and will flourish. But I think even Mr. Peretz recognizes this.

wendersfan
04-01-05, 12:09 PM
I take a little bit of issue with his heaping of all of the problems of the past 30 years at the feet of the Democrats. Reagan and Bush were just as willing to coddle Middle Eastern autocrats as Clinton was, and as for Carter, he brokered an Israeli-Egyptian peace that stands to this day. And like David, I'm a little more cautious in my optimism than Mr. Peretz -- we've clearly planted the seed of democracy, and it has begun to sprout, but it is far too soon to believe that it has taken root and will flourish. But I think even Mr. Peretz recognizes this.Right. Democrats like George HW Bush and James Baker:Right up to the moment Bush became president, I was convinced that his mind, at least on matters Levantine, belonged to his father and to James Baker III, whose worldview seemed to be defined by the pecuniary prejudice of oil and Texas: Keep the ruling Arabs happy.I realize the article is very long, and I did no bolding, but still...

One of the main theses was that George W Bush's policies have been a break from those of both Democrats <i>and</i> Republicans of the past.

JasonF
04-01-05, 12:20 PM
One of the main theses was that George W Bush's policies have been a break from those of both Democrats <i>and</i> Republicans of the past.

I was thinking more of the paragraph when he takes Clinton and Carter to taks for not trying to change the harsh character of the Arab world, even going so far as to call Carter sanctimonious. Looking at it again, though, I realize there's a reason he's singling out the Democrats -- that section of the article (and the article as a whole, but particularly that section) is a wake up call to Democrats that they need to walk away from the policies of the past. There's no need to tell Democrats to walk away from the policies of Reagan and the elder Bush, so of course they weren't discussed. So I withdraw my criticsm of the articles failure to place the appropriate share of the blame on Reagan and the elder Bush.

wendersfan
04-01-05, 12:23 PM
I was thinking more of the paragraph when he takes Clinton and Carter to taks for not trying to change the harsh character of the Arab world, even going so far as to call Carter sanctimonious. Looking at it again, though, I realize there's a reason he's singling out the Democrats -- that section of the article (and the article as a whole, but particularly that section) is a wake up call to Democrats that they need to walk away from the policies of the past. There's no need to tell Democrats to walk away from the policies of Reagan and the elder Bush, so of course they weren't discussed. So I withdraw my criticsm of the articles failure to place the appropriate share of the blame on Reagan and the elder Bush.One of the reasons I was drawn to the article, and why I posted it, long as it is, is because it's very thorough and doesn't play favorites. I applaud your retraction.

Tommy Ceez
04-01-05, 12:23 PM
<img src="http://clinton1.nara.gov/White_House/Family/images/raw/bill-arafat-rabin-treaty.gif">

It's still way too early to declare victory. We've seen the permanence of such cooperation before.

- David Stein

One difference...the dickhead on the right is dead.

Pharoh
04-01-05, 01:19 PM
I don't know what to think of Peretz or TNR, other than I really like reading the magazine again, after a long time. Back in "the day" they seemed to be leading exponents of what became known as neoliberalism, which at the time annoyed me to no end because I was an unrepentant left-wing/liberal/pinko/progressive in the early-mid 80s. I considered guys like Peretz and Kondracke to be sell-outs of the worst kind.

Probably the reason I like reading TNR now is because they aren't afraid to admit when the Democrats are fucking up royally, or when the Republicans have good ideas, in spite of the liberal editorial slant of the mag. And I agree, I think a lot of conservatives should read the magazine to understand that not all liberals are of the knee-jerk variety, and I think a lot of the liberals on this forum should read it, too, and maybe they'll start to gain some realism in their world views. ;)

Is Peretz a "Scoop" Jackson liberal? Perhaps. He's certainly been around long enough to understand how the world works. God knows we could use some more "Scoop" Jackson liberals about now.



Did you not like the writings of Mr. Berman?

wendersfan
04-01-05, 01:26 PM
Did you not like the writings of Mr. Berman?To be honest, I'm not very familiar with his work. FWIW, I have a copy of a recent TRB by Noam Scheiber on my office door right now.

Pharoh
04-01-05, 02:20 PM
To be honest, I'm not very familiar with his work. FWIW, I have a copy of a recent TRB by Noam Scheiber on my office door right now.


He is, in some sense, a leftist version of Paul Wolfowitz. He equates islamist terrorism with stalinism and nazism.

bhk
04-01-05, 07:08 PM
tommy, Clinton is very much alive.

DVD Polizei
04-01-05, 08:34 PM
I see some are already trying to get back to the Iraq thing (the article's author), overlooking the Shiavo incident the Bush Family was involved in.

Nice try. Didn't work.

And it's still too early to call it one way or another.

classicman2
04-01-05, 09:02 PM
Are you comparing the magnitude (as a political issue) of the 'Iraq thing' with the 'Shiavo incident?'

DVD Polizei
04-01-05, 09:17 PM
I'm saying it's rather interesting now that Terri's dead, the ultra-conservative wackjobs are easing off their moral high ground and legal exploitations (churlish comes to mind), and are now apparently reverting back to the successes of Iraq.

Now that their religious pawn is finally dead, they must immediately claim victory to offset the legal win of Michael Shiavo.

Politics as usual, we tend to say.

wendersfan
04-01-05, 09:28 PM
I have serious doubts that Peretz is either "ultra-conservative" or a "wackjob".

JasonF
04-01-05, 09:29 PM
There are a lot of words that can properly be used to describe Martin Peretz and the New Republic, but "ultra-conservative wackjobs" are not among them.

DVD Polizei
04-01-05, 09:39 PM
Well, TNR is supposedly for the "Liberal Christian", which I find odd. In any case, I agree, I let my defintions get the best of me this time. Mistake noted.

Has TNR reported on the two Bush boys and their involvement with the Shiavo case? It would be interesting if they have. If not, then hmmmm.

wendersfan
04-01-05, 09:51 PM
Here's three pieces which discuss Terry Schiavo to varying degrees:

https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=w050328&s=gurstein040105

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w050321&s=cottle032605

https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=w050321&s=markel032305

I've never heard <i>TNR</i> described as being for liberal Christians. Where do you get that? It seems most of their editors are Jewish.

classicman2
04-02-05, 08:42 AM
I'm saying it's rather interesting now that Terri's dead, the ultra-conservative wackjobs are easing off their moral high ground and legal exploitations (churlish comes to mind), and are now apparently reverting back to the successes of Iraq.

Now that their religious pawn is finally dead, they must immediately claim victory to offset the legal win of Michael Shiavo.

Politics as usual, we tend to say.

The New Republic - ultra-conservative wackjob

:lol:

:lol:

wendersfan,

I've never heard TNR referred to as being for Christian liberals either.

I assume because the magazine rather consistently takes a certain position on foreign policy and national defense that means it's a 'ultra-conservative,' 'Christian liberal,' 'wackjob.' :rolleyes:

It seems most of their editors are Jewish.

But you don't understand. They are Christian Liberal Jews. :lol:

DVD Polizei
04-02-05, 08:57 AM
Don't laugh too much. I seem to recall you saying the Terri Shiavo case has nothing to do with religion. My stomach is still sore from that one. :)

And btw, TNR is not as liberal as some of you may think. TNR has a history of being pro-war, dating back to the Grenada invasion. TNR endorsed Sen. Joseph Lieberman in Jan 2004, who is probably one of the most Conservative Democrats ever. I've been reading more about TNR, and apparently, it's old news that TNR is more aligned to the right of liberal, than anything.

classicman2
04-02-05, 09:34 AM
You seriously need a history lesson on how liberals used to feel about national defense, confronting communism, foreign policy, etc.

Liberals didn't always have a George McGovern view about national defense and foreign policy as many do today.

That's why wendersfan and I, quite often, refer to Henry 'Scoop' Jackson.

If you believe TNR is aligned to the right - you need to read it again - this time more carefully.

And if you believe Joe Lieberman is probably one of the most conservative Democrats ever, then you really need a history lesson. ;)

DVD Polizei
04-02-05, 09:45 AM
I think TNR is on the conservative side of the liberal spectrum.

wendersfan
04-02-05, 09:50 AM
So if we equate liberalism with physical beauty for a moment, what you're saying is that of all the Playmates of the month in a given year, <i>TNR</i> is the ugliest? :lol: