More Church/State Separation: National Day of Prayer

[OldDude]

Since its about separation, I guess its "Politics"
City of Troy is at odds with a local group over National Day of Prayer
[group] : We want to use city property for National Day of Prayer
[city]: Who's is for?
[group]: Everybody!
[city] What about Hindus?
[group]: Uh, no Hindu prayers, its for people of Judeo-Christian heritage
[city]: What Jewish groups are coming?
[group]: Uhh, we didn't invite any
[city]: Uhh, so exactly who is invited?
[group]: Anybody who wants to pray to Our Savior, Jesus Christ
[city]: Get out of here

I swear I don't make this crap up. Here's the article. In fairness to other groups, some go out of their way to make NDoP an interfaith event.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0503/27/B01-130217.htm
Prayer day issues trouble Troy

Some religions feel excluded; officials to reassess the request to pray on city land.

By Mike Martindale / The Detroit News


TROY -- A proposal for a National Day of Prayer is causing considerable soul searching in Troy.

At issue is whether the prayer day, set nationally for May 5, will be celebrated on city property, at City Hall, and, more importantly, if the event will include all religions or be limited to Christians.

"We have observed the National Day of Prayer here for several years," said Troy Mayor Louise Schilling.

"But the problem is, who will be allowed to participate? I and a lot of other people have always felt it was open to everyone and should be for all religions." She said a group described the event as being for Judeo-Christians, although she said Jewish groups had not been included.

On March 7, the City Council, by a 3-2 vote with two members absent, rejected a local group's request to hold the event on city property.

But two councilmen, including one not present for that vote, have called for a special meeting to reconsider the request at 7 p.m. Monday.

The controversy began at last year's event in front of City Hall, where various participants were allowed to take turns in offering a public prayer.

Schilling said a Hindu group approached her and told her they had been denied permission to pray during the public portion. Schilling had been allotted some time, which she gave over to Padma Kuppa, a Troy resident who has lived in India and the United States.

Lori Wangler, a local representative of the National Day of Prayer Task Force, could not be reached for comment Friday, but in an appearance before the City Council on March 7, she said: "Diversity is a wonderful thing, I agree. But diversity does not amalgamate us or make us one."

But Kuppa said the National Day of Prayer should be more inclusive.

"Why exclude people?" asked Kuppa, who is also a member of the city's ethnic issues advisory board. "Either it's a National Day of Prayer or it isn't. They may hold that name as a committee, but they don't own the name or the day."

Schilling agrees. "We have 53 places of religion in Troy and 80 languages spoken here," she said. "We're so diverse it was always assumed it was for everyone. How can you hold something like that on city property and not have it be for everyone?"

Schilling said the group hadn't even included any Jewish groups.

"A rabbi showed up to say neither he nor his temple had been advised or included in the event and he wanted the Judeo portion removed," she said.

The Troy National Day of Prayer group on its Christian Task Force Web site said the event "seeks to bring together people who live, work and worship in Troy at a common public forum in united prayer for our country and community."

The site added: "The City Council has rejected the request for this year's event because the task force is not an interfaith group.

"Although multicultural with a broad spectrum of doctrinal beliefs and racial backgrounds, the group stands united on the foundation of the Holy Bible as well as faith in the God of that Bible and our Savior Christ Jesus."

Schilling said the Troy prayer matter was set for discussion on the April 4 council agenda, but Councilmen Dave Lambert and Martin Howrylak requested the earlier special meeting.

Lambert could not be reached for comment. Howrylak, not present for the March 7 vote, said he believes the city has already set a precedent for permitting religious events on city property. He said a Palestinian group held a rally in front of City Hall a few years ago, and earlier this month, a replica of the Ten Commandments was displayed on city property for three hours.

"I would like to see us be able to resolve the matter," said Howrylak, adding he would likely approve the request. "It's essentially been a Christian event in the past. I don't see anything wrong with that.

"I don't think we should be in the business of obligating any organization on how to conduct this event. If another group wants to hold a separate prayer event, they are always free to file a request."

[bolded for balance]The Rev. Jacek Soroka of All Saints Polish National Catholic Church in Sterling Heights, who has coordinated an event in Sterling Heights for five years, stressed the National Day of Prayer is "for everyone and for all religions. It's not just for Christians."

"We say a prayer to God," he said. "We invite everyone in the city to ours, and there have been a couple churches who said if we weren't praying to Jesus, they couldn't be a part of the event. But we welcome anyone from Sterling Heights to our prayer day."

Schilling believes the issue is simple.

"It's my feeling that if what you really want is to exclude anyone other than your own belief, then you would be better off celebrating the day within the walls of your own church," Schilling said.

The issue is part of a broader one involving how the religious landscape of the United States continues to change.

In her 2001 book, "A New Religious America," author Diana L. Eck wrote that the country, founded on Christian beliefs, has become the world's most religiously diverse nation and that although race has been a dominant American social issue, religious diversity is becoming one of the greatest challenges of the 21st century.

The National Day of Prayer dates to 1795, when President Washington issued a proclamation setting aside a day for people to give thanks in public. The modern event was enacted by Congress in 1952 and practiced by several presidents, including President Bush last year.

[Giantrobo]

That time of year again huh OldDude? ;)

I know this is a relatively big deal in the Christian community. At least when I was in Christian Radio it seemed to be. Anyway, I wonder if changing the name to something else would help. Call it, "Day of Christian Prayer". Take the “national” out to avoid any "Separation" bitching and add “Christian” so everyone knows who the day is for and can let them have their day without all the bullshit whining, disruption, and legal threats. This way any Religious group who wanted “Their Day of Prayer or Whatever” could do so without alienating other groups because everyone would know what the deal is and could leave them in peace.

I mean if Christians were trying to Bogart their way into "Day of Jewish Prayer" or "Day Satanic Prayer", or "Day of Hindu Prayer", “Day of Atheist Do Nothing”, et al I would condemn the offending Christians for causing trouble for the other groups.

[huzefa]

Just curious; why exactly do they need to pray in City Hall? Can't they pray at home or in their regular place of worship? And why set aside a 'single' day to pray, why not pray all the time? ...

[Giantrobo]

Just curious; why exactly do they need to pray in City Hall? Can't they pray at home or in their regular place of worship? And why set aside a 'single' day to pray, why not pray all the time? ...


Just like non-believers don't want to have religion forced on them, believers don't want to feel like they're being forced underground.

With that said, I dont think Christians...or any religious group... should force their brand of religion into the faces of those who don't want it. I also believe people who don't want to deal should just move on and let them be. It's the"If you dont' like what you see then change the channel" approach. Hopefully no one is forcing you to participate.

[Tracer Bullet]

Just like non-believers don't want to have religion forced on them, believers don't want to feel like they're being forced underground.

So, saying that it's improper to hold a "National Day of Prayer" on government property is forcing the religious underground? Uh huh.

[Giantrobo]

So, saying that it's improper to hold a "National Day of Prayer" on government property is forcing the religious underground? Uh huh.

I didn't say that... Uhhh huh.

I don't necessarily support having religious ceremonies on gov property. Not for the same reason you might have but because it gets everyone all pissed off. So why do it.

[Tracer Bullet]

I didn't say that... Uhhh huh.

No, you did. But nevermind.

[Giantrobo]

No, you did. But nevermind.

I didn't.... Sorry.

My post wasn't even addressing that issue. He asked why they didn't just pray at home. I said that Christians may feel that being able to pray in public and not having to hide in backrooms to pray, is part of the freedom of being in America. Start telling them they can't prey in public, excluding the Gov Property angle, and it may seem to them as if Religious Freedom is being forced underground. I would think ANY religious group would feel the same.

[Breakfast with Girls]

"Day of Atheist Do Nothing"Sounds like my kind of national holiday!

[sfsdfd]

Just like non-believers don't want to have religion forced on them, believers don't want to feel like they're being forced underground.
And by "forced underground," apparently you mean "can't get governmental funding and sponsorship of their exclusive religious event."

- David Stein

[DarkElf]

I suppose it's possible that the only area of open land large enough for the expected crowd is at City Hall, and so that's their only option. But I read the city of Troy's official website. It sounds like a pretty nice place, somewhat affluent, and there are around 800 acres of parkland maintained by the city.

IMO, if this event can be held at a public park, or a lake, etc., then the event should be held there and not at City Hall. Even if it open to all faiths, I still don't think it should be held at City Hall unless there are no other options.

[OldDude]

Just like non-believers don't want to have religion forced on them, believers don't want to feel like they're being forced underground.



They have all these neat buildings (I think maybe they are called churches) on which they don't even have to pay any property taxes. Magically, there are enough of these buildings to hold all the faithful (plus a few hypocrites) every Sunday. I suspect they would suffice on others days of the week, as well.

[Red Dog]

I just want a separation of church and Costco. Costco was fucking closed today. :mad:

[Giantrobo]

And by "forced underground," apparently you mean "can't get governmental funding and sponsorship of their exclusive religious event."

- David Stein

NO!!!!!!!!!

Don't twist my posts.

I'm talking about simply being able to pray or acknowledge one's faith in public in general. NO RELIGION/FAITH should be told they can't do it in public. However, I also don't think any religion/faith should be asking for Government funding or sponsorship because it causes to many problems for both sides.

[Giantrobo]

They have all these neat buildings (I think maybe they are called churches) on which they don't even have to pay any property taxes. Magically, there are enough of these buildings to hold all the faithful (plus a few hypocrites) every Sunday. I suspect they would suffice on others days of the week, as well.

OldDude...sigh--- don't get me wrong...and I posted this above....I DON'T think they should be involving Government in this at all. I think they should celebrate this on their own "turf" too.

[sfsdfd]

Don't twist my posts.
It's hardly twisting. You were responding to <b>huzefa</b>'s question about why Christians felt entitled to hold a Christian-only prayer service in City Hall. You responded by characterizing this as a struggle between "non-believers having religion forced on them" vs. "Christians feeling like they're being forced underground."

I was disagreeing with your characterization. And I think your post fairly exemplifies the extreme sensitivity of Christians in this case (and all related cases.) "Being forced underground" would mean Christians aren't allowed to practice anywhere in public - which would be extremely offensive, even to me. But there's a world of difference between this and being denied the use of a government building.

<b>(edit)</b> And I see that you clarified your stance by editing your post to mean this same thing. I figured that's what you meant, for the record; but I think the unintended meaning of your post is the actual position of many Christians, including some here.

- David Stein

[Giantrobo]

It's hardly twisting. You were responding to <b>huzefa</b>'s question about why Christians felt entitled to hold a Christian-only prayer service in City Hall. You responded by characterizing this as a struggle between "non-believers having religion forced on them" vs. "Christians feeling like they're being forced underground."

I was disagreeing with your characterization. And I think your post fairly exemplifies the extreme sensitivity of Christians in this case (and all related cases.) "Being forced underground" would mean Christians aren't allowed to practice anywhere in public - which would be extremely offensive, even to me. But there's a world of difference between this and being denied the use of a government building.

<b>(edit)</b> And I see that you clarified your stance by editing your post to mean this same thing. I figured that's what you meant, for the record; but I think the unintended meaning of your post is the actual position of many Christians, including some here.

- David Stein


Actually, my apparent mistake was in focusing on this part of his post:

...Can't they pray at home or in their regular place of worship?...

Again, when I posted what I posted it was a general comment on being public with prayer and not having any religion feel it needed to hide it's faith from the public at large and especially the Government.


also, from you:

I figured that's what you meant...

Then why did you make the comment you made? One would think you were trying to make it look like I was saying something else.....

[Groucho]

I think these Hindu's need to stop whining and recognize that America is a Christian country, always has been. Also, they should stop and learn a bit about Christianity. Before it's too late.

[sfsdfd]

Then why did you make the comment you made? One would think you were trying to make it look like I was saying something else.....
Because even if you didn't intend to set up this contrast, it's been a frequently-expressed opinion here. Figured it was worth addressing.

Hey, I've done the same thing before - written an over-brief response that implied an unreasonable position (which I didn't intend) - and been called on it. It's how things work here in Politics. ;)

- David Stein

[Giantrobo]

Because even if you didn't intend to set up this contrast, it's been a frequently-expressed opinion here. Figured it was worth addressing.

Hey, I've done the same thing before - written an over-brief response that implied an unreasonable position (which I didn't intend) - and been called on it. It's how things work here in Politics. ;)

- David Stein

Ok...fair enough.

[chubby checker]"Let's twist again...like we did last summer...."[/chubby checker]

[Ralph Wiggum]

I suppose it's possible that the only area of open land large enough for the expected crowd is at City Hall, and so that's their only option. But I read the city of Troy's official website. It sounds like a pretty nice place, somewhat affluent, and there are around 800 acres of parkland maintained by the city.

IMO, if this event can be held at a public park, or a lake, etc., then the event should be held there and not at City Hall. Even if it open to all faiths, I still don't think it should be held at City Hall unless there are no other options.

Since when is an absence of "other options" a reason to allow any religious group to use government property for their rituals?

[darkessenz]

Doesn't fair access apply here? As long as the other religions could rent out this place...

[movielib]

I think these Hindu's need to stop whining and recognize that America is a Christian country, always has been. Also, they should stop and learn a bit about Christianity. Before it's too late.
Groucho says in jest what some people really believe but are afraid to say. :lol::up:

[huzefa]

I didn't.... Sorry.

My post wasn't even addressing that issue. He asked why they didn't just pray at home. I said that Christians may feel that being able to pray in public and not having to hide in backrooms to pray, is part of the freedom of being in America. Start telling them they can't prey in public, excluding the Gov Property angle, and it may seem to them as if Religious Freedom is being forced underground. I would think ANY religious group would feel the same.

Actually I didn't mean to say that Christians or whoever should not pray at City Hall. But God will hear their prayer if they're at home just as well; just the same as he will hear their prayer if they were in Church or in the car. So why the big push to do it outside at City Hall at all? Why not have a Church day of Prayer and invite all the other denominations/religions to come attend?

[huzefa]

p.s.: I oughta go over to City hall in Troy and ask to rent the place out for my religion just to see how many cops would kick my ass out of the city. You think they have a problem with Hindus, just wait until they get to the Muslims..... hehe ;)

[Giantrobo]

p.s.: I oughta go over to City hall in Troy and ask to rent the place out for my religion just to see how many cops would kick my ass out of the city. You think they have a problem with Hindus, just wait until they get to the Muslims..... hehe ;)

You got nuthin' to worry about. They only screw with Christians in this country. :lol::p


(Hears sfsdfd cracking his knuckles getting ready to post in protest) :lol::p

[sfsdfd]

(Hears sfsdfd cracking his knuckles getting ready to post in protest) :lol::p
Heh - my sense of humor might be damaged, but it's not obliterated. :D

- David Stein

[Venusian]

Any more info on this? It sounds like a Christian group organized an event and then other religions got mad because they weren't included.

[OldDude]

Any more info on this? It sounds like a Christian group organized an event and then other religions got mad because they weren't included.

When the Jews are left out of the "Judeo-Christian heritage" that seems to be the only possible conclusion. :lol: I haven't seen an outcome in the paper.

Edit: Troy City Council meets tonight, so maybe some news tomorrow.

[movielib]

When the Jews are left out of the "Judeo-Christian heritage" that seems to be the only possible conclusion. :lol:
...
To be fair they probably don't know what the "Judeo" in Judeo-Christian means. ;)

[Giantrobo]

To be fair they probably don't know what the "Judeo" in Judeo-Christian means. ;)


I thought it meant "Crosses Wholesale"? :confused:

[kvrdave]

Provided any other religious group is given the same opportunity to use public property after going through some process like this group, I don't see how this is sponsoring a religion. Seems very similar to having a Bible study at schools. If that "government agency" must give the same access as they would to some non-religious group, I would think the city would as well.

[Giantrobo]

Provided any other religious group is given the same opportunity to use public property after going through some process like this group, I don't see how this is sponsoring a religion. Seems very similar to having a Bible study at schools. If that "government agency" must give the same access as they would to some non-religious group, I would think the city would as well.


Get out of here with your "Reasonable solution" bullshit!

[msulinski]

I just want a separation of church and Costco. Costco was fucking closed today.

I know this was sort of meant as a joke, but why can't Costco close when they want? Costco is not run by the government, therefore, if Costco management wants to close on religious holidays, why shouldn't they be able to? Do you think the government should force them to stay open?

[Red Dog]

I know this was sort of meant as a joke, but why can't Costco close when they want? Costco is not run by the government, therefore, if Costco management wants to close on religious holidays, why shouldn't they be able to? Do you think the government should force them to stay open?


They can do whatever the fuck they want - it's their right. It is also my right to be pissed off by their business decisions.

[Tsar Chasm]

Isn't prayer supposed to be private according to the teachings of the bible?

[msulinski]

They can do whatever the fuck they want - it's their right. It is also my right to be pissed off by their business decisions.

I didn't say it wasn't. To me, your previous message implied that you wanted a government-enforced separation of church and Costco.

[Red Dog]

I didn't say it wasn't. To me, your previous message implied that you wanted a government-enforced separation of church and Costco.


I guess you don't know me very well. ;)

[Red Dog]

Isn't prayer supposed to be private according to the teachings of the bible?


I've always wondered why religious people need to be prompted to pray.

[msulinski]

I guess you don't know me very well.

You're right, I don't. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.

[Venusian]

Isn't prayer supposed to be private according to the teachings of the bible?its supposed to be genuine and not for show, but I dont think it is ever mentioned that it is supposed to be private. but I could be worng

[JasonF]

its supposed to be genuine and not for show, but I dont think it is ever mentioned that it is supposed to be private. but I could be worng

Matthew 6:1-6:6, which can be interpreted to mean "make sure your prayers are genuine, not for show" or to mean "pray in private, not in public."

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[kvrdave]

Matthew 6:1-6:6, which can be interpreted to mean "make sure your prayers are genuine, not for show" or to mean "pray in private, not in public."


Everyone's a winner :)

[Venusian]

"that they may be seen of men." look at the motive Jesus is preaching against.

[JasonF]

"that they may be seen of men." look at the motive Jesus is preaching against.

Look at the words Jesus was using. He doesn't say "make sure you have pure motives when you pray;" he says "Go in your closet when you pray."

But people have been arguing over this for 2 millenia, and I'm not even a Christian. You should interpret Matthew 6 however you feel is appropriate; I was just pointing out where people are getting the idea that Christian prayer should be private.

[classicman2]

Taking a sentence out of a verse in the Bible or even a verse out of a chapter in the Bible is ............................

[Red Dog]

Taking a sentence out of a verse in the Bible or even a verse out of a chapter in the Bible is ............................


....what religious leaders and politicians do a lot of. :lol:

[Venusian]

Look at the words Jesus was using. He doesn't say "make sure you have pure motives when you pray;" he says "Go in your closet when you pray."

and look at the words in verse 3:

"But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:"

should that be interpreted that your left hand can literally not know what the right hand is doing?

[classicman2]

....what religious leaders and politicians do a lot of. :lol:

Probably not as much as agnostics and atheists do in attempting to belittle religion though.

[Red Dog]

Probably not as much as agnostics and atheists do in attempting to belittle religion though.


I'll take that bet. :lol:

[Tsar Chasm]

Probably not as much as agnostics and atheists do in attempting to belittle religion though.

Oh, I think that religious leaders and politicians do a better job belittling religion.

[sracer]

Look at the words Jesus was using. He doesn't say "make sure you have pure motives when you pray;" he says "Go in your closet when you pray."

But people have been arguing over this for 2 millenia, and I'm not even a Christian. You should interpret Matthew 6 however you feel is appropriate; I was just pointing out where people are getting the idea that Christian prayer should be private.

It is true that Christians are called to pray in private... the intent of that (read the epistles of the NT to get the proper perspective) is to ensure that prayers are sincere and not "for show" as in, "Look how righteous and holy I am! Watch me pray!" :lol:

Christians praying in public is also encouraged... but... under very specific situations. The problem with this "National day of prayer" nonsense is that it goes contrary to Biblical teaching on those specific situations.

Born-again Christians are only to pray with fellow believers. A Christian CANNOT pray with a Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, New Ager, or anyone else does not share the core beliefs of Christianity. That's the minimum common ground.

So when Christian "leaders" call for a National Day of Prayer that includes the participation of non-Christians, they are advocating something that goes against Scripture.

I say fooey to the notion of a "National Day of Prayer".

[classicman2]

What is a born again Christian?

Are there Christians who are not born again?

[Venusian]

What is a born again Christian?

Are there Christians who are not born again?
i've asked that on here before and the usual answer is that a born again is a fundamentalist or something...i still dont get it

[Venusian]

Born-again Christians are only to pray with fellow believers. A Christian CANNOT pray with a Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, New Ager, or anyone else does not share the core beliefs of Christianity. That's the minimum common ground.

So when Christian "leaders" call for a National Day of Prayer that includes the participation of non-Christians, they are advocating something that goes against Scripture.

I say fooey to the notion of a "National Day of Prayer".

the problem looks like these leaders didn't call for a day that included non-christians. does that mean they are right?

also you have scripture that says "Born-again Christians are only to pray with fellow believers."?

[Tracer Bullet]

i've asked that on here before and the usual answer is that a born again is a fundamentalist or something...i still dont get it

I've always understood it as someone who was brought up in some flavor of Christianity that later recommits themselves to Jesus. Basically they become gung-ho for god, or something.

I don't think you can have a born-again Christian who was never previously a Christian. I could be wrong about that, though.

[kvrdave]

What is a born again Christian?

Are there Christians who are not born again?

No. However, the term isn't generally recognized by the meaning you and I probably have of it. It generally means funamentalists crazed types.

[kvrdave]

I've always understood it as someone who was brought up in some flavor of Christianity that later recommits themselves to Jesus. Basically they become gung-ho for god, or something.

I don't think you can have a born-again Christian who was never previously a Christian. I could be wrong about that, though.

That's the generaly understanding, but not the Biblical one.

[sracer]

What is a born again Christian?

Are there Christians who are not born again?
A born-again Christian is someone who confesses that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior. They acknowledge that His death on the cross was the payment for their sins. And that at the moment that someone makes that heartfelt confession, God's Holy Spirit dwells in their heart and guides them.

Born-again Christians, for the most part adhere to the doctrine of sola scriptura, that is "The Bible only"... we look to the Bible as the sole authority for how to live a life pleasing to God. Other than baptism and the symbolic celebration of communion, i can't think of anything ritualistic.

Basically, it isn't about rules, regulations, and rituals, but a relationship.

[sracer]

the problem looks like these leaders didn't call for a day that included non-christians. does that mean they are right?
I have heard a few local church leaders call for a National Day of Prayer that includes people of all beliefs. That doesn't make sense to me.


also you have scripture that says "Born-again Christians are only to pray with fellow believers."?
Yes, I'll have to dig them out with the appropriate surrounding text and context.

[classicman2]

And how does that differ from your average, run-of-the-mill Christian?

[sracer]

And how does that differ from your average, run-of-the-mill Christian?

hehe, there isn't any such thing as "run-of-the-mill" Christian. If they belong to a denomination, then there are denominational rules they follow regarding membership in the church, participation, and the like.

[Tracer Bullet]

And how does that differ from your average, run-of-the-mill Christian?

Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. Doesn't sracer's defintion apply to all Christians, or is this some sort of Protestant confirmation?

[classicman2]

I believe there are some Pentecostals who differentiate.

Is it actually a redundancy to say 'born again Christian?'

[kvrdave]

Basically, it isn't about rules, regulations, and rituals, but a relationship.

:eek: Then what am I suppose to do with all these chickens?


Born again Christian is redundant. Those who call themselves Christians but say, "but not the born again type" obviously don't know what it means.

[Venusian]

what cman and dave and sracer said. a Christian by definition is born again. people who say "born again christian" usually don't know what it means

[OldDude]

Well, the matter has been settled. Two prayer groups will be allowed:
1) Five other faiths willing to pray together
2) Christians who don't pray well with others
http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0503/29/B01-132837.htm
Troy to let 2 groups pray

Worship day will include ceremonies for 5 religions, 2nd for Christians only.

By Mike Martindale / The Detroit News


TROY -- The City Council decided Monday night to let two groups hold a National Day of Prayer ceremony, in the wake of a controversy over whether the ceremony would be restricted to Christians.

The council voted 7-0 to allow an interfaith group made up of five different religions hold a prayer ceremony from 11 a.m. until noon in Veterans Plaza in front of Troy City Hall on May 5 and then allow a Christian prayer ceremony from noon until 1 p.m. on that day.

The prayer day ceremony already had prompted various reactions among believers who attend Troy's 53 houses of worship, including talk of a separate interfaith observance.

"We will be having a national prayer day in Troy," Mayor Louise Schilling said before the meeting, which was attended by about 100 people. But she said she was uncomfortable with limiting prayer on city property to one religious group. The council has permitted the event for 10 years but on March 7 it voted 3-2 to deny the permit for this year's event. Monday's meeting was requested by Councilmen Martin Howrylak, who was absent for the earlier vote, and Dave Lambert.

"You can't force people to pray together," said Lori Wagner, coordinator of the Troy group that made the request for a "Judeo-Christian" event.

"There has been an attempt to force an interfaith prayer out of the National Day of Prayer, and now we're being vilified because we have problems with that," Wagner said.

Objections by Rabbi Arnie Sleutelberg of Congregation Shir Tikvah in Troy led to deletion of the "Judeo" link to the event.

Problems started last year when Padma Kuppa, a Hindu, was rebuffed in her efforts to be a prayer leader for the event.

[Duran]

:eek: Then what am I suppose to do with all these chickens?


They're snakes, man, not chickens. Get with the program!

[sracer]

Yeah, I'm wondering that myself. Doesn't sracer's defintion apply to all Christians, or is this some sort of Protestant confirmation?
Actually, no it doesn't apply to all who call themselves Christians. Mormons call themselves Christians but they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God as well as a person of the tri-une nature of God.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians too, but they don't acknowledge who Jesus is either.

There are other churches out there, professing to be Christian, that don't believe that one has to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They believe that by being baptized, registered in their church, and performing defined rituals and practices that they can get to Heaven.

For a church to be considered a Christian church, they have to believe in the following 5 doctrines: (as for who determined these 5, they have been extracted from the various church councils over the ages)

The triune nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit…the trinity)
The deity of Jesus (Jesus was fully man and fully God)
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The atoning work of Christ on the cross
Salvation by grace through faith

[outer-edge]

Well, the matter has been settled. Two prayer groups will be allowed:
1) Five other faiths willing to pray together
2) Christians who don't pray well with others
http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0503/29/B01-132837.htm

I don't think they had a choice. It is my understanding that if the city allows City Hall (or any public land) to be used by groups, they can not deny any group on the grounds that they don't like them for some reason. This means if neo-nazis wanted to use it, as long as they fill out the paper work, pay the fee, etc., they are good to go. They can not be denied because the city doesn't like neo-nazis.

I don't remember all the details, but we discussed a case years ago in college where a KKK group wanted to have a parade through a Jewish neighborhood. The city denied them the permit. The group had done everything necessary and an appeal to the courts allowed the group to march. Sure, the group is just being obnoxious assholes, but as long as they aren't doing anything illegal, they can't be denied. At least that's how I remember it. ;)

I also had a professor, who was a practicing free speech lawyer, who used to set up the times for groups that wanted to use central campus for events. Same thing applied, she couldn't deny them the use as long as they followed procedure (this is a state university).

[Tracer Bullet]

Actually, no it doesn't apply to all who call themselves Christians. Mormons call themselves Christians but they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God as well as a person of the tri-une nature of God.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christians too, but they don't acknowledge who Jesus is either.

There are other churches out there, professing to be Christian, that don't believe that one has to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They believe that by being baptized, registered in their church, and performing defined rituals and practices that they can get to Heaven.

For a church to be considered a Christian church, they have to believe in the following 5 doctrines: (as for who determined these 5, they have been extracted from the various church councils over the ages)

The triune nature of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit?the trinity)
The deity of Jesus (Jesus was fully man and fully God)
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The atoning work of Christ on the cross
Salvation by grace through faith


Eh, what do I know- I went to Catholic school for seven years. ;)

[sracer]

Eh, what do I know- I went to Catholic school for seven years. ;)
:lol: I know how that goes... I attended way too many years of Catechism classes.