Iraqi citizens stand up to insurgents

[nemein]

:johnwoo:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3098440


Iraqi citizens stand up to insurgents
'We attacked them before they attacked us,' carpenter says
By ROBERT F. WORTH
New York Times

BAGHDAD, IRAQ - Ordinary Iraqis rarely strike back at the insurgents who terrorize their country. But just before noon Tuesday, a carpenter named Dhia saw a group of masked gunmen with grenades coming toward his shop and decided he'd had enough.

As the gunmen emerged from their cars, Dhia, 35, and his young relatives shouldered their Kalashnikov rifles and opened fire, the police and witnesses said. In the fierce gunbattle that followed, three of the insurgents were killed and the rest fled just after the police arrived. Two of Dhia's nephews and a bystander were injured, the police said.

"We attacked them before they attacked us," said Dhia, his face still contorted with rage and excitement, as he stood barefoot outside his home a few hours after the battle, a 9 mm pistol in his hand. He would not give his last name.

'We will show them'
"We killed three of those who call themselves the mujahedeen," he said. "I am waiting for the rest of them to come, and we will show them."

It was the first time private citizens are known to have retaliated successfully against insurgents.

There have been anecdotal reports of residents shooting at attackers after a bombing or assassination, but Tuesday's gunbattle erupted in full view of half a dozen witnesses.

The battle was the latest sign that Iraqis may be willing to start standing up against the attacks that leave dozens dead here nearly every week. After a suicide bombing in Hilla last month that killed 136 people, including a number of women and children, hundreds of residents demonstrated in front of the city hall every day for almost a week, chanting slogans against terrorism.

Like many of the attacks here, Tuesday's gunbattle had sectarian overtones. Dhia and his family are Shiites and they cook for religious festivals at the Shiite Husseiniya mosque, across from his shop. The insurgents are largely Sunnis, and they have aimed dozens of attacks at Shiite figures, celebrations, even funerals.

The conflict has grown sharper in the past year, with Shiites now dominating Iraq's new police force and army and holding a narrow majority of seats in the newly elected national assembly.

Dhia's gunbattle on Tuesday unfolded in Doura, a working-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad where much of the capital's violence is concentrated. Killings and bombings have taken place there in recent weeks, and the police acknowledge that they have little control. Before the fight, an Interior Ministry official was gunned down in Doura as he drove to work, officials said.

Witnesses saw the gunmen circling near the Husseiniya mosque in three cars just before the violence started, said Amjad Hamid, 25, who works at the Justice Ministry. They stopped near Dhia's shop, across from the mosque. The men carried pistols and rifles, and one had a belt full of hand grenades, Hamid said. They drove an Oldsmobile, a gray Honda and a red Volkswagen Passat.

When the shooting began, Hamid said, his mother ran outside and was struck by bullets in the leg and the ear.

'I am sure they will be back'
Two of Dhia's nephews who were with him during the attack, one 13 years old and one 24, were wounded, family members said. After the police arrived, they recovered the bodies of the three dead insurgents, who were identified through documents in their clothing as Abdul Razzaq Hamid, Abdul Hamid Abed, and Zaid Safaa, officials said.

Hours later, Dhia was still furiously cursing the mujahedeen when he spoke to a reporter in his carpentry shop. A Shiite cleric quickly told him to stop talking, and he complied.

Meanwhile, a group of armed neighborhood men stood watch on the roof of the house, guarding the streets leading to the Husseiniya mosque and Dhia's shop. "I am sure they will be back," one said. "We killed three of them."




Of course I'm sure some will use this proof that there is a growing possibility of a civil war in Iraq...

[ChiTownAbs, Inc]

:thumbsup:

[Thor Simpson]

Man, I'd say this guy is either a dead man or a hero. Well, a hero either way, but hopefully he'll last another week (the insurgents may try to make an example of him).

Hopefully this incident is well-published over there. It's good to see physical evidence that some citizens over there are outraged by these insurgents' tactics. Hopefully it catches on. Let the insurgents be afraid.

Of course, this is proof that there's a growing threat of civil war. ;)

[kvrdave]

Hopefully the insurgents take enough black eyes to break them.

[bhk]

How dare you call them insurgants? They are freedom fighters and minutemen and they will win.

[eXcentris]

Of course I'm sure some will use this proof that there is a growing possibility of a civil war in Iraq...


Sounds more like the Far West to me. HeeeeeAwwww! :)

[raven56706]

Hopefully... all iraqi's can stand up to them...... show those insurgents from other countries that they dont belong and that they are worthless

[Toad]

Good for them --- best of luck!! :up:

[kvrdave]

Sounds more like the Far West to me. HeeeeeAwwww! :)

:hscratch: Do you mean Old West?

[eXcentris]

:hscratch: Do you mean Old West?

Language idiosyncracy. We say "le Far West" in french to refer to the Old West. Skipped my mind when I posted cause "Far West" sounds english. :)

[Mopower]

Wow, I wonder if this made the evening news of the big three networks? Oh what I'm I thinking? Probably not. :rolleyes:

[OldDude]

Well, here's a story in which Iraqi forces, with US gunship support, overran a rebel base and killed 85 "freedom fighters"
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/23/iraq.main/index.html

Yesterday, about 50 "freedom fighters" ambushed a convey of Marines. Marines proceeded to kill half and drive off the other half. Bad week to be a "freedom fighter" in Iraq.

[Mutley Hyde]

So much gloom and doom. :(













Hey, dead freedom fighters... see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya! :wave: :banana:

[nemein]

The "story" is reall choppy (sometimes it's just individual facts/comments strung together) so it's hard to get a real sense of what happened. On the surface it sounds like things are potentially changing and people are finally saying "enough is enough" :up:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050324/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=1478



Middle East - AP
AP
Iraq Workers Protest Insurgent Attacks

By TRACI CARL, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of power workers shouting "No, no, to terror!" marched through Baghdad on Thursday to protest attacks that have killed dozens of their colleagues, while demonstrators in the south demanded that the new petroleum minister be from their oil-rich region.

The demonstrations came as negotiators for the two biggest factions in the new National Assembly worked out details of an Iraqi government that U.S. officials hope will pave the way for the eventual withdrawal of coalition forces.

Jawad al-Maliki, a negotiator from the Shiite-led United Iraqi Alliance, said talks had progressed enough for Shiite Arab and ethnic Kurd officials to agree to hold parliament's second session early next week, although no date had been set. The 275-seat National Assembly met March 16 to swear in its members.

"The negotiations were positive and very good," al-Maliki said. "In the coming days, the meetings will be continuous and decisive."

Lined up behind a black banner with the names of slain power workers, protesters demanded an end to attacks on electricity stations and oil pipelines — targets in an insurgent effort to weaken the economy and undermine the U.S.-led coalition and interim government.

At the same time, in southern Basra, more than 200 workers gathered outside a local government building to insist that the new government's oil and transportation ministers be from that region.

"Everyone must know that the oppressed and persecuted people of the south refuse to have their interests be ignored," protesters said in a statement given to the provincial governor, Mohammed al-Waeli.

Al-Waeli agreed, saying: "We are eager that the people of Basra and the south have clout in the new government."

Some oil workers threatened to disrupt production in the south.

"We will stop pumping the oil and go on strike for those working in the oil field and the ports if our demands aren't met," said Mohammed Abdul Hafez, a union official who was one of the demonstration's organizers.

The insurgency's persistent violence, and the threat of disruptions to Iraq (news - web sites)'s oil exports, have contributed to rising world crude prices over the past year.

Kurdish and Shiite negotiators debated Cabinet posts Thursday, and Abdul-Karim al-Anzi, a Shiite official, said lawmakers should be able to elect the president, two vice presidents and parliament's speaker in their session next week.

The prime minister is expected to be Ibrahim al-Jaafari, a politician from Iraq's Shiite Arab majority. Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani is likely to be named president.

One of the vice presidents will likely be a Sunni Arab, al-Maliki and al-Anzi said.

The move is an effort to reach out to the Sunni community, which is believed to be the backbone of the insurgency. Dominant under former dictator Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), Sunni Arabs mostly stayed away from Iraq's Jan. 30 election, some in a boycott of the vote and others in fear of attacks.

Shiite Arabs are estimated to make up 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people, while Kurds and Sunni Arabs are each thought to be 15 percent to 20 percent.

The top U.N. envoy in Iraq, Ashraf Qazi, reached out to Sunni Arabs on Thursday by meeting with influential Sunni religious leaders at a Baghdad mosque.



Qazi "stressed the importance of ensuring that all components of Iraqi society are adequately represented in the constitutional making process," a U.N. statement said.

A visiting seven-member U.S. congressional delegation expressed optimism at the progress being made in forming a new government.

"We take hope home that our troops will be able to rejoin their families sooner rather than later," said Rep. Anna Eshoo (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif.

After nightfall, a large explosion was heard near a joint U.S.-Iraqi military camp 25 miles north of Baghdad, followed by gunfire. U.S. military officials confirmed there was an attack, but no major damage was reported. No other details were available.

Earlier, in Rabia, police mistook some Iraqi soldiers wearing civilian clothes and carrying guns to be insurgents, and opened fire, killing three soldiers, police chief Ahmed Mohammed Khalaf said. The soldiers shot back, killing two police officers. Eight officers also were wounded in the gunbattle, which lasted about 10 minutes.

In the former rebel stronghold of Fallujah, police imposed a late-afternoon curfew in part of the city, shouting through loudspeakers: "Close your stores and go home!" They also set up checkpoints and searched cars. The curfew may have been related to a firefight earlier in the city's Jolan neighborhood between unidentified gunmen and Iraqi security forces.

Also Thursday, the U.S. military said a prisoner died the previous day at the Camp Charlie internment facility. The man, in his early 30s, was found lying in his cell and attempts to revive him failed, the statement said. It said the cause of death was under investigation.

[General Zod]

BUSH WAS RIGHT! :banana:

{Runs from thread...}

[Goldblum]

:hscratch: Do you mean Old West?
Maybe he meant the Far East. :lol:

[natevines]

That guy's a badass. I say put him in an action movie!

[DarkElf]

Of course I'm sure some will use this proof that there is a growing possibility of a civil war in Iraq...

To me, a single incident can't be PROOF of any trend, such as a growing possibility of civil war. But this story is certainly ILLUSTRATIVE of the tensions that exist between Sunni civilians and Shiite insurgents.


Wow, I wonder if this made the evening news of the big three networks? Oh what I'm I thinking? Probably not. :rolleyes:

To be fair, as far as I can determine, it's nowhere on CNN or FoxNews either. I searched both web sites, and I could find no mention of this story. It's only a story written by a writer for the "liberal" NY Times, which some other papers picked up.

Which means, this is a pretty insignificant story in the overall war, and if can't make 24-hour news stations, you can't expect it to make a 30-minute news broadcast, especially with how much the Schiavo case is dominating the news.

[nemein]

To me, a single incident can't be PROOF of any trend, such as a growing possibility of civil war. But this story is certainly ILLUSTRATIVE of the tensions that exist between Sunni civilians and Shiite insurgents.

Assuming of course the vendor who decided to strike out at the masked/armed people driving down his street cared/knew that they were of a particular sect/"denomination". I mean it might be a pretty good assumption that they were but if this person's actions was based more on "there are armed people driving down my street who are going to set off bombs possibly hurting people I know/love" than "there are armed Sunnis driving..." then I don't see it happening. I'm sure there are some out there who would love a civil war to break out for a variety of reasons but to me (granted from a distance so it's hard to get a real feel for it) it seems the insurgents are becoming more and more isolated... of course this doesn't necessarily mean there aren't some serious issues/problems that still need to be resolved ;)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0324/p01s04-woiq.html

Sunni leaders met last weekend to unite in their cause and negotiate with Shiites and Kurds.
By Jill Carroll | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
BAGHDAD – Two years after war dramatically changed Iraq's political landscape, the former ruling minority Sunnis are developing plans to participate in a government formed by elections they boycotted.

In a significant shift, several Sunni groups that hitherto shunned the political process met last weekend to create a unified front and set of demands that they will present to the Shiite and Kurdish leaders now hammering out a new government.


E-mail this story
Write a letter to the Editor
Printer-friendly version
Permission to reprint/republish


The meeting was a reversal for Sunni leaders who have supported insurgents and urged US troops to leave Iraq immediately.

The new effort, observers say, appears to be an admission that their strategy - to stop Iraq's election and denounce the formation of a new government - has failed. Bringing the former ruling class into Iraq's emerging power structure, they add, could help quell the insurgency.

"Participation of the Sunnis is both religiously important and politically important," says John Esposito, a professor at Georgetown University who specializes in Islam and international affairs. "It can establish a precedent for other Sunni leaders to become involved."

The significance of the conference was underscored by its attendees. Participants included members of the Muslim Scholars Association, a group of Sunni religious leaders, among them some of the most extreme figures who have influence with the insurgency.

Also present were leaders from cities in the "Sunni Triangle," including Mosul, Haditha, and Salam Pak, which is bubbling with insurgent activity. Representatives of Waqaf Sunna, the powerful administrating body of Sunni religious affairs, attended as well.

Need for street credibility

Some Sunnis have previously tried to assert themselves as representatives of the diverse minority. Returned exile Adnan Pachachi, current vice president Ghazi Yawar, and some members of the Islamic Party formed a coalition a few weeks ago.

But their group has little, if any, credibility because it does not share the strong anti-occupation sentiments of most Sunnis or hold sway over the insurgency.

"For the past two years, there has been no real representative of the Sunnis in Iraq. Now there is a real attempt to form a representative of all Sunnis," says Ibnayan al-Jarba, who helped organize the meeting. "The security situation in general will not improve if [the new political leaders] do not hear from us. We have a direct effect on the [Sunnis] in the street."

Mr. Jarba says a group was chosen at the meeting to fan out among Sunni tribal, religious, and political leaders in the next few weeks to solidify a base of Sunni support and then begin talks with Shiite and Kurd leaders about their demands.

Jarba says that includes a meeting this weekend with Harith al-Dhari, a leader of the Muslim Scholars Association, which eschews political participation.

"There is a lot matching in our ideas and the Muslim Scholars Association," Jarba says.

The sudden activity in the Sunni community, explains former election candidate Sherif Ali bin al-Hussein, will start a path toward negotiations that will eventually call for a laying down of arms in exchange for inclusion in the power structure.

"We are trying to exploit the [post-election] trauma of the Sunnis coming face-to-face with the loss of their power," says Mr. Hussein, who failed to win a seat but is trying now, as a Sunni and prince from the royal family that once ruled Iraq, to facilitate the process. "Already they have come to terms with participating in the next election, across the board, 100 percent."

Thorny demands

The list produced by the meeting includes demands that Sunni interests are provided for in Iraq's permanent constitution, which the national assembly is charged with writing this year.

But it also includes thornier demands such as recognition that Iraqis have a right to oppose US occupation, a schedule be developed for US forces to leave Iraq, reversal of US de-Baathification policy in the military, and the release of all detainees for whom there is no solid evidence they committed a crime. They also want a Sunni in a top job in the country's security apparatus, particularly the Ministry of Interior.

Shiites are taking note of the shift in Sunni willingness to participate and are taking the emerging group seriously as the first real representatives of the Sunnis.

"The most important thing is that they create a [leadership] for Sunnis," says Humam Hamoudi, a candidate from the United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), a group of Shiite religious leaders that won the majority of national assembly seats.

The UIA has struggled to find Sunnis willing to negotiate who also have clout in the Sunni community. But Mr. Hamoudi says those efforts were renewed after the top Shiite religious authority, Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani, instructed them to do so.

"He appealed to us to take more care of Sunnis' rights. He said, 'Sunnis are not only our brothers but they are yourselves,' so treat them accordingly," Hamoudi says.

If Sunnis don't participate, says Mr. Esposito, they will be further alienated by a government dominated by Shiites. Experience in other countries, he says, suggests this could lead to sectarian trouble.

[DarkestPhoenix]

:up:

Of course this leads to a growing possibility of Civil War.

However, not all Sunnis are insurgents. In fact, the minority of them are, so I doubt all Sunnis will rise in defense of the Mujahadeen that get slaughtered.

Wasn't there a post election story like this where a town rose up and killed seven insurgents?

The truth of the matter is that the Muj are just as chicken as everyone else, and as soon as someone stands up to them, they leave. Just so more people start to. People hate the damn Muj.

[Mutley Hyde]

:up:

Of course this leads to a growing possibility of Civil War.

Wasn't there a post election story like this where a town rose up and killed seven insurgents?

Yup, and yup. I'm too lazy to look it up though.

[DarkestPhoenix]

I said possibility. I don't actually think that will ever happen.

Statistically, I would say it's a very small possibility.

[Mutley Hyde]

Well, I think one could make a plausible argument that the 'citizens' are just Shias and the 'insurgents' are just Sunnis. I'm not making the argument, I'd like to see some raw data first, but I do think it's a possibility, and if it is the reality, then I think it would be a valid argument to say this is beginning to resemble civil war.

But then, what would be wrong with that? Who are we to judge Iraq's internal conflicts? If the Sunnis refuse to take part in the new government, and rather decide to attack 'the enemy', namely the Shias in this case, then maybe they should just duke it out.

And, lastly, is it really 'Sunnis' that are the insurgents, or are we still dealing with Ba'athist loyalists here who just so happen to be Sunni? That would reveal how close they are to civil war. If it's a Sunni movement, then I would say they're very close to it. If it's Ba'athist remnants, then maybe it won't turn into full blown civil war on a national level.