Need some guidance classifying "Punk" music

[Cardiff Giant]

So ever since I got XM radio, I've been listening to alot of older alternative music (Fred is my favorite station). Anyhow, some of the artists I've started to like are often classified as "punk" bands. A few that I can think of off the top of my head are Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Damned, X, The Jam, and others of that style.
To me, when I think of "punk" rock I think of the modern definition of punk rock, which is comprised of acts that I really can't stand (complete with sometimes simplistic musical style and annoyinginly fast paced songs). At what point did the definition of "punk" change from being bands like the above and to the more modern punk acts? Honestly, just listening to the musical style, I'd not have pegged the Clash as a "punk" band had I not known better.
Anyhow, if someone could give me some info I'd appreciate it. When I tell people I've been listening to older punk music lately, they seem to think I've suddenly become a Rancid fan ;)

[Numanoid]

Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Damned, X, The JamBands like these get labelled as punk by knuckleheaded program directors who don't know much about music. All of these bands started out VERY EARLY in their careers as punk, mostly because that was the fashion of the moment. They all almost immediately evolved into what would be more accurately called "New Wave" (a much broader genre, incorporating many different styles). Bands like DEVO, Gary Numan, Talking Heads and Ultravox all started out as punk bands, but quickly morphed into synth-based New Wave. For them, the punk label didn't stick. Go figure.

The punk movement was pretty much dead by 1980, but the die hard bands and fans started going by the banner "hardcore" (exemplified by what you described as a "simplistic musical style and annoyinginly fast paced songs"). This new generation of "punk" bands (Blink 182, etc.) is nothing more than power-pop, really.

[naitram]

I consider punk more of a movement and less of a sound, because there are still bands who sound "punk", but those days are long since gone.

In my opinion, the height of it was bands like Bad Religion, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Social Distortion, The Misfits, Bad Brains, and countless others from the 80's- both big and small. That's the part of it I was around for. But people will take it back further than that. Hell, you can go back to Buddy Holly if you want to be technical the roots, I guess. -wink-

I personally think it stopped with Nirvana.

[Burnt Alive]

The punk movement was pretty much dead by 1980, but the die hard bands and fans started going by the banner "hardcore" (exemplified by what you described as a "simplistic musical style and annoyinginly fast paced songs").

Middle Class, Bad Brains, The Minutemen, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, Big Boys, The Proletariat, TSOL, The Wipers, Husker Du, Subhumans (UK or CA, take your pick), Flipper, SIMPLISTIC?! Come on!

This new generation of "punk" bands (Blink 182, etc.) is nothing more than power-pop, really.

You'd lump Blink 182 in with The Buzzcocks, 999, Plimsouls, Zeros, etc??? :whofart:

[Josh-da-man]

'70s punk is pretty much inclusive of bands like The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Ramones, etc. (And even those three bands sound nothing alike.)

And also The Damned, Dead Boys, X, The Jam, The Misfits, Bad Religion, DK, Black Flag, Social Distortion... all generally called "punk."

A case could be made that The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees were punk, but they're generally classified as "goth."

Punk is pretty much in the eye of the beholder... there's the original 70s stuff, the 80s stuff that runs the gamut from hardcore to fruity new wave (which was sort of branch-off of punk), and the 90s-00s stuff that's pretty much Nintendo punk like Blink 182. What does and doesn't qualify as "punk" is up for debate.

[Hiro11]

Merle Haggard was punk...

[wendersfan]

The first Siouxie's album was very punk. Don't forget that Sid Vicious played drums on their first gig, well before he was a Sex Pistol.

For most of the bands of that era - The Damned, The Clash, The Sex Pistols. X-Ray Spex, 999, Siouxie, The Buzzcocks, Generation X, etc., their first album was punk, and then they drifted. The Pistols broke up after their first album, so they were the most punk of all I guess. Those bands that didn't evolve in some way did so because of either a lack of ambition (The Damned) or talent (Sham 69).

Early American punk (The Ramones, Richard Hell, The Dictators, The Heartbreakers, and The Dead Boys) is a whole 'nother ball of wax in terms of development.

[12thmonkey]

The punk movement was pretty much dead by 1980

Actually it was well before that, if you want to nitpick. I read an interview with Joe Strummer many moons ago, and in his opinion by the time The Clash released their first LP what he considered the "punk" movement was already dead, and had morphed into the next level in the evolutionary musical chain.

As much as I hate labels, "punk" was always fast, 2 or 3 chord stuff to me. In my mental dictionary, it's the Ramones, or if I'm trying to mainstream the definition: The Sex Pistols.

Credit The Ramones for kick starting the (r)evolution. If you need proof, check out The End Of The Century DVD. There's a great interview with Strummer talking about attending the July 1976 concert by the Ramones in England, and how it served as a wake up call to get it together.

The stuff that came after was just great music, if you ask me.

[Cusm]

Don't forget the Go-Gos were punk, in the beginning at least, they were very different from their later image.

[Damfino]

When I tell people I've been listening to older punk music lately, they seem to think I've suddenly become a Rancid fan ;)

Ouch. Now that makes me feel old.

[mllefoo]

Punk is a lifestyle and a way of thinking. Punk music, on the other hand, was pretty short-lived as others have pointed out in this thread.

Punk was the direct reaction to disco. Once it killed disco, punk splintered and evolved into new wave, goth, and synthpop.

Siouxsie's first album was punk. Fat Bob was a part of her band at that time. When he left, Siouxsie's band became new wave/goth and Fat Bob created The Cure, which was very goth.

True punk was very angry about everything and nothing, and thus spawned such classics as "TV Party" by Black Flag, and "20 Eyes" by the Misfits. Some bands were never punk, yet incorporated some of the sound. Alien Sex Fiend and the Cramps were both very goth, but also had that angry punk attitude for a short time.

The Sex Pistols were the punk version of The Monkees; a prefab punk band created by Malcolm McLaren. They self-destructed very quickly. Johnny Rotten, who still has that punk way of thinking, doesn't really produce punk music. I think as soon as he won a court case on Judge Judy, he could never really be punk again.

When I first heard people classifying the likes of Greenday and Blink 182 as punk, I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

[dick_grayson]

When I first heard people classifying the likes of Greenday and Blink 182 as punk, I think I threw up in my mouth a little.
:up:

[Joeboo835]

Middle Class, Bad Brains, The Minutemen, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, Big Boys, The Proletariat, TSOL, The Wipers, Husker Du, Subhumans (UK or CA, take your pick), Flipper, SIMPLISTIC?! Come on!



You'd lump Blink 182 in with The Buzzcocks, 999, Plimsouls, Zeros, etc??? :whofart:

Man, you just made me realize how much I used to love TSOL. That band just ruled. I need to go find those CDs.

[Tscott]

I think when people talk about "punk" there's a lot of meanings that the word has. Some point to the core music (Ramones, Sex Pistols), some have a broader definition and some are talking about a "punk attitude" where the type of music (or other medium) doesn't really matter, it's the rebellion or screw the mainstream element in that person's work that does.

Also, I'd actually classify the first two Siouxsie albums as punk (musically), Join Hands has a 14 min version of The Lords Prayer, which was the first song they ever played live I believe.

While we are on the subject, I am curious about how people classify artists like Patti Smith, The Velvet Underground and Television as they seem to be somewhere near the borderline of punk for me yet I hesitate throwing their names into punk conversations for fear of getting laughed at or reamed by punk purist.

[Numanoid]

You'd lump Blink 182 in with The Buzzcocks, 999, Plimsouls, Zeros, etc??? :whofart:Do you consider The Buzzcocks, 999, Plimsouls, Zeros, etc. to be the "New Generation" of punk? :whofart:

I'd say you're off by about 25 years.

[Cardiff Giant]

Ouch. Now that makes me feel old.
Nah, I don't consider Rancid old music at all but alot of the people I come into contact with on a daily basis probably would ;)
Anyhow thanks for all the responses. It sounds like my big confusion was confusing the true punk genre with it's offshoots as well as more modern hardcore music.
Before I started listening to XM though, I'd only heard people refer to modern bands like NOFX as punk (and i can't stand bands that sound like that). I'm gonna go ahead and draw this conclusion: the punk movement was extremely short and it's offshoot musical genres became bigger than the original punk movement ever was. Seem fair enough?

[Damfino]

I'm gonna go ahead and draw this conclusion: the punk movement was extremely short and it's offshoot musical genres became bigger than the original punk movement ever was. Seem fair enough?

Yes! :thumbsup:

[Cusm]

Siouxsie's first album was punk. Fat Bob was a part of her band at that time. When he left, Siouxsie's band became new wave/goth and Fat Bob created The Cure, which was very goth.


Robert Smith was not a founding member of Siouxsie. He joined and played guitar on her 1979 tour in which the Cure opened for them. He later played on the Hyaena album, and worked with Steve Severin on their side project The Glove. Smith created Easy Cure, which was renamed The Cure, in 1976, the same year Siouxsie formed the Banshees.

[Burnt Alive]

Do you consider The Buzzcocks, 999, Plimsouls, Zeros, etc. to be the "New Generation" of punk? :whofart:

I'd say you're off by about 25 years.

:whofart: No, I consider them power-pop.

[Burnt Alive]

Man, you just made me realize how much I used to love TSOL. That band just ruled. I need to go find those CDs.

Just make sure you don't get any after Beneath The Shadows!