JasonF

This thread is inspired by some discussion going on in the "Sessa watches Buffy for the first time" thread, but I wanted to keep the spoilers out of there, so I started my own thread. Here there be spoilers -- don't read this thread unless you've watched EVERY episode of Angel (or are willing to have the series finale spoiled for you).

It's pretty well-known that Joss Wheedon and Mutant Enemy planned their shows out well in advance of production. Given that (and the way they ended Angel Season 5), it's pretty clear they had a definite direction they planned to take the story in Season 6. So I'm curious as to what we know about what those plans were, or what people would have liked to have seen, or any other rumors/wishes/speculation/whatever.

I'll start things off by saying that I have read that they had two different plans for Illyria, but hadn't decided which to use. One was to have her become more and more like Fred over time as Fred's personality/dormant memories/whatever reasserted itself, and the other was to have someone (possibly Willow) split Fred and Illyria into two people.

I've also heard that Nina would have been a regular cast member, and that Seth Green would have done a few guest appearances as Oz trying to teach Nina how to control her powers.

I'm very curious if they would have killed Wesley in the finale if they were coming back for a 6th season. He was such a great character and the Wesley/Illyria relationship so fraught with storytelling potential that I think Wesley would have survived if the show had survived.

Gizmo

Everything you statesd is EXACTLY what I heard (Illyria, Fred, Willow, Oz, Nina). I beleive Wesley wouldn't have died, he was too important to the show. Another rumor I heard was that if Angel got a 6th season after Season 5 had ended (Wesley dead, Gunn almost dead), S6 would be about an apocoliptic (BAD spelling) world.

Rogue588

"Apocalyptic" is what I heard.

"Mad Max"-ish is another thing.

bigsoos

would it really come down to that type of world if the military got involved? I mean all the demons coming after Angel and the gang at the end of Season 5 had just swords and armor.

I'd like to see how Illyria would have adjusted. How could Willow split Fred & Illyria if Fred's soul was lost?

JasonF

Keep in mind that 1) we just have Wesley's word that Fred's soul was lost. Wesley's smart, and did a lot of research, but he's not infallible, and 2) Fred didn't turn into Illyria until after the cancellation decision had already been made, so it's possible the "Fred's soul was consumed by the transformation" was added after the fact since they knew they wouldn't have a chance to do the Illyria/Fred storyline.

Legolas

There would be a mysterious source of evil that they have to stop, and they just happen to know of an ancient scroll that describes this evil perfectly, and then they use kung fu to stop it.

areacode212

I don't think it IS clear that they had a definite plan for S6 before the cancellation, aside from "they're not going to be at W&H anymore". I heard all of these things too (Oz, Willow, Fred, apocalyptic world, etc..), but I don't see comments like "Oz & Willow would've shown up", as concrete plans, since all that depends on actor availability and besides, how many times did we hear that SMG/AH were going to show up in S5? I'm sure they had some ideas about where to go, but they got the cancellation notice pretty early on (February), before they would've started breaking the following season.

I did remember reading that they weren't sure what to do with Illyria once they got her (and they were cancelled just when they were filming "Underneath"), but yeah, I think they would've gone further with her Fred/Illyria schizophrenia in S6. I don't think it's entirely out of the question that Wesley would've been killed, even if they had gotten another season. It would've given the S5 season finale a nice emotional punch, and we would've gotten to see Illyria grieve for him, as a role reversal of Wes/Fred. Personally, I'm more interested in seeing Illyria's development without Wesley being there.

edit:
The cancellation news came down on the Thursday/Friday after "Why We Fight" aired, but by then, they were already filming "Underneath" (the dungeon scene).

PHMustang2000

i wanted in the seires finale for Angel to get his soul back where his quest would be over.

JasonF

Right -- Why We Fight was episode 13, and Fred didn't become Illyria until two weeks later (A Hole in the World). I don't think we find out that Fred was really and truly irredeemably dead until the next week (Shells).

OK, I did some poking around -- it is Shells where we find out Fred's soul was consumed, and we find it out from the Doctor, not from Wesley's own research, so for all we know he was lying.

I guess they left themselves enough room to bring back Fred if they wanted to, but my guess is that the "Her soul is gone" line was in there all along (although with ADR, you never know).

WillieTheShakes

Um, I'm pretty sure that the point of the character was that he already had his soul: the whole "vampire with a soul" angle.

CaptainMarvel

He obviously meant his "soul" as in being in touch with his African-American side. I'm pretty sure season 6 would have involved Angel running around in yellow spandex, saying "Sweet Christmas!" whenever he gets surprised.

rfduncan

I always wondered what happened to the reformation of Watcher's Council angle we saw in "Lineage". That whole Roger Wyndham-Pryce story was pretty interesting, but nothing came of it...

riley_dude

Me too. I always thought a perfect finale (after 7 years) would have been to have Angel get his soul back and be with Buffy but that will never happen now.

areacode212

I assume you all mean his humanity, not his soul. I'm happy with the way the shanshu was handled in the finale we got.

NitroJMS

They may still do a movie a few years down the road that ties up some loose ends, pending that the stars align and Joss, SMG, and David Boreanaz are all free and willing at one time. From what I've read, Joss and Sarah are up to it after a little bit of a break to the character and if Joss can come up with a decent story. Boreanaz seems to want to have nothing to do with Buffy/Angel for right now, but most of the rest of the main cast seems willing to return for a film (Marsters, Hannigan, Brendon).

They are continuing the Angel series in comic form so its kinda known that Angel lives through the final battle in "Not Fade Away." My friends and I like the going theory that Buffy simply showed up with the Slayer Army and took care of business, but it's all just speculation til those comics come out later this year, and even those are supposedly going to be vague about the battle.

bigsoos

I guess if Illyria was at full strength she could have easily dealt w/ all the demons... that is unless she was about to destroy the fabric of time.

I figured if they did do Angel Season 6, it'd just be Angel, Spike, and Illyria left. I can imagine they did some damage against the demon army, but I figured they'd have to make a run for it and reform a new team.

I wonder how much of her former power she could handle if she was ressurected in the body of a demon instead of a human. Althouh I loved seeing Amy Acker w/ the Illyria look.

Superman07

I don't think it's very plausable since it wouldn't bring in very new views, but if there was a Buffy/Angel movie (big screen), I think it should go straight into a flash back scene of the huge fight at the series finale. Course we wouldn't know it's a flashback until a few minutes into it perhaps. Would be an awsome way to blow onto the big screen and evenmoreso it would be great to see on the big screen.

phr33k

They all died fighting. End of story.

Josh-da-man

Speculation -- Directions I think they might have been heading in --

* Angel vamps the dying Gunn. (In "Why We Fight" it was implied that Angel could pass his curse to others. Would he do this to save Gunn? Would Gunn ask him to keep fighting?)

* Wesley and/or Gunn return as ghosts. Hell, we can add Lindsey to that list, too. (With Lilah and Holland, we've seen that the Wolfram and Hart contracts extend beyond death. Gunn was a lawyer in much the same position as Lilah; in "Home" we saw that Wesley knew about the contracts so he would probably not sign one, but he did sign that dollar bill for Lilah...)

* Possibility of a Fred/Illyria split. Very possibly in a Ben/Glory fashion. (I'm not completely convinced that Fred's soul was destroyed. The concept of "soul" has never been definitively explaned in the Slayerverse. Occasionally, Illyria would take on Fred's mannerisms or vocal inflections -- esp. note when she found the dying Wesley in "Not Fade Away")

* Possibility of a Spike/Illyria relationship. (Occasionally, I thought I saw something between them. And can't forget about the friendship forged between Fred and Spike early in the season.)

* And how interesting would a relationship between Spike/Illyria-Fred/Wesley be if they managed to bring back Wesley and split Fred/Illyra like Ben and Glory?

* Faith guest-appearance. (Possible. "Tru Calling" was cancelled, and Eliza did a guest shot on "That 70s Show.")

Loose ends from Season Five:

* Who sent the cyborg ninjas and robots in "Lineage?"

* How did Drogyn and Hamilton know each other?

* Angel is the last surviving member of the Circle of the Black Thorn. Ramifications? Could he invalidate the signing away of his Shanshu? Could that contract even be enforced now that the Circle is gone?

* What's been going on with the new Watcher's Council? (Presumably being run by the surviving Scoobies -- there seemed to be a brewing conflict between the Fang Gang and the Scoobs)

jpdude

I'm just part of the way thru Buffy S3, and i haven't even started Angel S1 yet. I'm certainly not afraid of spoilers or i wouldn't be here.

At this point. i'm really hooked on the whole Angel & Buffy relationship and would like to have had both stories end with the two of them together. Just call me a hopeless romantic.

Meglos

Considering the attitudes and actions displayed by the Scooby Snobs in "Damage" and "Shells", I think this is a terrible idea. Kinda invalidates the heroic "never say die" sacrifice Angel Inc displayed in the finale.

movielib

Thanks. You all just made me even more upset that Angel was cancelled before its time.

Seriously, it's interesting to hear what they may have been thinking of doing. If only they'd had a chance to do it.

njchris

I'd like to have had Tara show up between the demons and Angel & Co. Turn to Angel with red eyes, as if to attack them.. then swing around and chant something and take care of the demons.

JasonF

Thinking about Illyria's powers as well as one of Joss's dropped plots from Buffy Season 7 -- he was going to have Buffy wish you-know-who back to life* -- I think there's a good chance that Wesley still would have died, and then a few episodes down the road Illyria would have somehow gotten temporary access to her old time powers, and would have altered time so Wesley survived, thereby bringing her another step closer to humanity.

That's how I would bring Wesley back if they hired me to write Angel Season 6 or Angel: The Movie.

* Since there may be people who want to be spoilered on Angel but not Buffy, I figured I ought to spoilerize this:

areacode212

I kind of figured Joss said that to get all the whining you-know-who fans to shut the hell up already. I don't believe she would've wished ANYONE back to life, for the spoilerized reason you mentioned.