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View Full Version : the flop and online casinos


Gallant Pig
03-13-05, 09:06 PM
You know I was thinking about this. At what point is the flop / dealing of a virtual deck and determined? This thought occured to me when I folded J7 as the BB when someone raised and the flop came 377. Now if I had called (which I didn't think was a great move at the time) would the flop had been that or was it decided an instant before it's done? So like if I had called it could have randomly been something else for whatever reason?

skiblet
03-13-05, 09:17 PM
Want my honest opinion?


The ENTIRE thing is very very carefully wrigged so that the online casino makes the most rake money possible. Period.

And that means orchestrating a very long term campaign of careful balancing each and every players ups and downs, and KEEPING THEM ON THE TABLES FOR THE MOST HANDS POSSIBLE. If player X is due for a hit, or a break, then somewhere , deep in some computers memory, it decides to give him one.

briank
03-13-05, 09:22 PM
Want my honest opinion?


The ENTIRE thing is very very carefully wrigged so that the online casino makes the most rake money possible. Period.

And that means orchestrating a very long term campaign of careful balancing each and every players ups and downs, and KEEPING THEM ON THE TABLES FOR THE MOST HANDS POSSIBLE. If player X is due for a hit, or a break, then somewhere , deep in some computers memory, it decides to give him one.

:lol:

......as for the real answer I'm sure different sites use different programs.
Just like different video poker machines use different programs (eg. if you are playing 5 card draw, is it pre-determined when you hit deal for the first time - are you given 10 cards, with one behind each of the five, or 10 cards, you get cards 1-5, and then 6-10 depending on how many you discard, OR do you just get 5 cards, and then when you discard the random generator is activated again based on how many cards you request.

skiblet
03-13-05, 09:55 PM
:lol:

......as for the real answer I'm sure different sites use different programs.
Just like different video poker machines use different programs (eg. if you are playing 5 card draw, is it pre-determined when you hit deal for the first time - are you given 10 cards, with one behind each of the five, or 10 cards, you get cards 1-5, and then 6-10 depending on how many you discard, OR do you just get 5 cards, and then when you discard the random generator is activated again based on how many cards you request.




Id say just believe whatever makes you feel better, and then just take your chances anyways.


The other, and infinitely more serious problem that you have to worry about with online poker is people colluding together. theres just simply no way they can carefully monitor that. im sure they catch some of it, but not all. in order to minimize this risk, change tables every so often. or sites even.

Jeremy517
03-13-05, 11:38 PM
You know I was thinking about this. At what point is the flop / dealing of a virtual deck and determined? This thought occured to me when I folded J7 as the BB when someone raised and the flop came 377. Now if I had called (which I didn't think was a great move at the time) would the flop had been that or was it decided an instant before it's done? So like if I had called it could have randomly been something else for whatever reason?

It almost assuredly would have been different, due to factors such as time and mouse movements.

Gallant Pig
03-14-05, 12:05 AM
No I don't think it's rigged. ;) The hand I listed above actually a flush won it and it was in a SNG. I know why people chase junk though, because when they fold it and see the flop or turn or river they kick themselves and then chase the junk in the future.

However I don't think you can rationalize the "oh if I hadn't folded" since I honestly don't think the outcome would have been the same had you played the hand.

mgbfan
03-14-05, 12:53 AM
As I understand it, random number generators often use time as part of the formula. The question is then whether the deck is determined from the start or whether each individual card is determined as it comes.

The end result is this: It doesn't matter. It's all the same to you since you don't know either way.

And please, paranoid guy, some perspecitve. Online poker isn't a fly-by-night hit-and-run business. Poker rooms make obscene amounts of money without any need to doctor the flops. It's the same reason the MGM doesn't need to cheat at blackjack. They're gonna make their money without cheating, so why risk it? It'd be a bad gamble, and casinos and poker rooms are all about taking only good gambles.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 10:49 AM
aHHHHH THEYRE COMING TO GET ME

actyper
03-14-05, 11:23 AM
As I understand it, random number generators often use time as part of the formula. The question is then whether the deck is determined from the start or whether each individual card is determined as it comes.

The end result is this: It doesn't matter. It's all the same to you since you don't know either way.

And please, paranoid guy, some perspecitve. Online poker isn't a fly-by-night hit-and-run business. Poker rooms make obscene amounts of money without any need to doctor the flops. It's the same reason the MGM doesn't need to cheat at blackjack. They're gonna make their money without cheating, so why risk it? It'd be a bad gamble, and casinos and poker rooms are all about taking only good gambles.

And the final result, Good players will make $ over the long term, bad players won't. As long as that stays true, online poker is not rigged.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 11:49 AM
<---- better player than skiblet

I've only lost on 2 sites (one for $50, the other for $40). Everything else is pure profit. I love Scorcho Number Generators!

actyper
03-14-05, 11:54 AM
<---- better player than skiblet



The odds of that are ...... 99.5% All-in

skiblet
03-14-05, 12:16 PM
i would wager that almost everyone on here is a better player than me. I am new to it, and have been playing about 6 months or so. Plus, i dont play often enough to get better as a player.

thanks for kicking my self esteem though, i appreciate it.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 12:18 PM
If you've played for 6 months and you haven't gotten better, chances are you're not paying attention enough. I got worked on my first $50 at pokerstars. Its been smooth sailing ever since, once I started paying attention to betting patterns, being able to read the board better (and thus seeing pot odds, implied odds, hidden outs, etc.), and so on.

Go read a few poker books. Study the game. Most players online suck. Just get yourself to a level above them and enjoy the winnings.

Groucho
03-14-05, 12:28 PM
If you poke around on the website, a lot of online places will explain how they do it. The ideal way to do it, IMHO, is to have a virtual "shuffle" before anything is dealt, just like a real deck of cards, rather than reshuffling everytime somebody takes their turn.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 01:33 PM
It would also be less taxing on the CPUs running the show to have one RNG-generated shuffle per hand rather than several shuffles per hand every time a new card needs to be dealt.

skiblet
03-14-05, 03:14 PM
El Scorcho,

thanks for your comments. I agree with you, i need to practice more and study more. Theres a lot of math involved, and a whole lot more to it than just going with your gut instinct. I really do want to be a better player, but not sure if im willing to invest the time and money into practice.

I think your right though, i dont pay enough attention to it when i play online. Its just way to boring to ONLY play poker online, i have to have the TV going, or a DVD going or something else to pass the dead time. If i watched everyone like a hawk, then yes im sure id do better.

So, what are somethings i can do to improve? any paticular books that youd really reccomend? I favor a tight/semi-agressive playing style, and try to play very few hands. I usually dont go all in unless i have the nuts, or very close to it. I tend to do a lot better in real games, than at online games. for some reason, i just have a hard time trusting it. i dont know.

id appreciate any advice or encouragement from anyone.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 03:24 PM
Well for starters I'd stay away from No limit games until you get your feet wet enough. Play some low limit poker. No limit is a whole 'nother beast. I've played online for over 6 months now with some good success at .50/1 and 1/2 limit and I still won't even step near the smallest NL table.

Play at the fishier sites. The biggest morons reside on Party Poker and on Pacific Poker. Stay away from Ultimate Bet and PokerStars.

Pay attention to people's betting habits. Some players won't bet into you unless they have top pair or a set after the flop.

Learn to isolate players. If you get AK or AQ or AA or some other awesome hand pre-flop, you want as few players as possible. Isolate with raises. Even the dumbest player will fold 74s most of the time if there's a raise in front of them, where as they'll call the big blind if there isn't.

Be aware of what cards will hurt you and what cards will help you. If you hold A7 and the 7 on the river would put 6789A on the board, you'll most likely lose to a straight, even though you spiked two pair.

Aggression in limit poker gets a lot of respect against tight players. I've won countless hands re-raising people who bet post-flop with medium pair when I held high pair.

Play it smart, put your money in the pot when you believe you have the best of it, and go from there. You'll suffer bad beats along the way, and trust me, it discourages you. But the numbers don't lie. You put your money in the pot when you feel you have the advantage and you'll always come out a winner in the end.

El Scorcho
03-14-05, 03:25 PM
Oh yes, and stop it with the gut instinct stuff. Gut instinct is for slot machine players. Play with your head!

mikehunt
03-14-05, 03:53 PM
all I know is. I hate it when I literally get the same down cards (value and suite) 3 hands in a row at party poker

mgbfan
03-14-05, 09:49 PM
Ditto on the advice to learn limit poker first. Too many newbies go for what they perceive as the glory. Limit poker forces you to play with consistency and discpline. It forces you to learn the numbers, discover advantages and avoid common pitfalls.

Too many players go straight to NL with no sense of the numbers and probabilities they need to be armed with.

gimmepilotwings
03-15-05, 09:08 AM
Well, I by no means call myself an expert. I would most likely be considered an average player, maybe slightly above average.

I started with the reverse strategy that others recommend. I started playing NL holdem mostly at free sites in order to get a grasp on how betting works, cards to play etc, and started playing mostly tournaments in order to insure that I only played premium hands. This has allowed me to do very well at tournament play, including a few wins, a half a dozen final table appearances and even more money places.

I didnt want to start playing for money at limit tables, because limit is where you have to chase cards in order to hit a big payday, and I didnt want to develop that habit at NL.

I have probably added $400 to my bankroll in the year or so that I have played. I have cashed out atleast $3000 with another $1000 in my poker accounts.

El Scorcho
03-15-05, 10:52 AM
I disagree wholly about the "limit is where you have to chase cards to hit a big payday" comment.

The same fundamentals hold for limit as NL. The only exception is that it's easier to bluff with NL because the bet sizes can be larger. However, whether it's limit or NL, you should always start with great hands (including speculative ones), read your opponents betting patterns, and just hope the cards come.

Gallant Pig
03-15-05, 11:47 AM
NL yeah it's easier to pure bluff, Limit, it's tougher. Depends on your table image, how tight / loose the player is.

El Scorcho
03-15-05, 11:58 AM
Bluffing on limit tables is easy, but not when there's more than 2 other players to bluff out. You're not going to bluff out 5 people that stayed in the pot.