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Hd-Dvd Hdmi Output Only?

Old 02-22-05, 05:51 PM
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Hd-Dvd Hdmi Output Only?

From DvdFile:

It's been a few weeks since CES and I've been getting some mixed signals concerning the availability of full bandwidth component video outputs on HD-DVD players.

One writer for a well-known home theater magazine wrote that only HDCP-compliant HDMI outputs would be offered. This is not what we want to read. But an industry insider shared his view that - based on conversations he's had within the industry - it's very likely that the analog video connections will be included on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray players. Who's right?

Since product was shown at CES, even if it might have been a pre-production prototype, to be ready for manufacturing in time for the fall holiday buying season, surely the design must be locked in by now. I got in touch with Toshiba to again try to get a confirmation of the player's output specifications. On February 13th, I received a reply from a Toshiba representative that was not very revealing, ". . . it is not yet defined if analog component video outputs will be included on Toshiba's HD DVD players, as copy protection is still under discussion."

So is seems that film studios are still concerned with piracy and closing the "analog hole" while, perhaps, consumer electronics companies are concerned about the backlash from the installed base of HD-ready displays unless the "analog hole" is left open. One would think that the battle in courts being won by the studios might be enough.

It was reported a few days after I received the message from Toshiba that a Dallas federal court shut down LokiTorrent.com, a notorious file-sharing site. Just as significant, the court ordered the site to provide the studios with its log files. That data could help identify individuals who violated copyright laws and make them vulnerable to lawsuits. LokiTorrent is not the first file-swapping site to fall before the legal offensive waged by the MPAA. And rightfully bolstered by these successes, the MPAA is moving ahead with suits against other file swapping sites. Suits against individuals cannot be far behind.

I applaud the MPAA for going after the violators and the sites that support them. What swappers and file-swapping sites do not appreciate is that their actions are equivalent to killing the goose that lays the golden egg. With the costs of producing, advertising, and distributing film rising to astronomical levels - hundreds of millions of dollars - and with broadband service growing exponentially, such piracy could eat sufficiently into motion picture profitability to jeopardize the production of the big budget films that dazzle. And we all enjoyed being dazzled.

I can only hope that the MPAA finds its victories sufficiently reassuring to support HD-ready display owners with the analog video connections they need to enjoy the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats in all their expected glory.
Old 02-22-05, 07:51 PM
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Early reports were that the plan would be for the players to have a traditional component output, but that the video would be downscaled to standard DVD resolution if using it. Only the digital output will offer full HD resolution output. I still expect that this will be the case.

There is zero possibility of either HD-DVD or BluRay offering full HD resolution output from the traditional component outputs.
Old 02-22-05, 08:11 PM
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Damn HDMI...I have a DVI port on my TV...hope DVI compatibility is out there...
Old 02-22-05, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Early reports were that the plan would be for the players to have a traditional component output, but that the video would be downscaled to standard DVD resolution if using it. Only the digital output will offer full HD resolution output. I still expect that this will be the case.

There is zero possibility of either HD-DVD or BluRay offering full HD resolution output from the traditional component outputs.
Though it sucks for some, I assume that is how it will be from what I read and hear. It is just the price some early adopters will pay. I mean it is not the first time early adopters got screwed (I have been an early adopter and got the shaft myself) - so though it hurts - it comes with the territory (being an early adopter is risky).
Old 02-22-05, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarantino
Damn HDMI...I have a DVI port on my TV...hope DVI compatibility is out there...
Best Buy has a $30 Moster Cable adaptor that will do the trick, or there are cheaper alternatives I am sure.
Old 02-22-05, 08:50 PM
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So if I read this right, the 3-way component outputs will only handle 480p resolution? And even DVI won't be fully compatible with HD output?

Boy, what a way to kill early market switch-over, if even the most modern connection now won't even do the trick. If this is the case, I don't see HD-DVD taking over for another good 5 years or more. Until HD TVs with the appropriate connections get cheap enough for everybody to afford, the standard DVD will continue to reign supreme in sales.
Old 02-22-05, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Early reports were that the plan would be for the players to have a traditional component output, but that the video would be downscaled to standard DVD resolution if using it. Only the digital output will offer full HD resolution output. I still expect that this will be the case.
And I would expect DVD players with upscaling capabilities via component to appear on the market within 6 months or a hack for a bunch of existing players that will allow the same thing.
Old 02-22-05, 08:57 PM
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Isn't that going to be problematic? How many of those inputs do HDTVs have on average?
Old 02-22-05, 09:08 PM
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I think the legal victories by the MPAA against file-sharing sites and individuals will only embolden them further, not make them suddenly get magnanimous about full-HD rez analog outputs.

This issue will directly determine how soon I get into HD-DVD/Blu-ray. I will NOT be an early adopter if it requires me to replace my Pioneer Elite 610 that has no DVI w/HDCP or HDMI inputs.

As an owner of over 600 DVDs, I would think I'm exactly the type of buyer that Hollywood would want to target for their new HD product. Not gonna happen, at least not for awhile, unless I can use the analog component connection.
Old 02-22-05, 09:15 PM
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What about HDMI/DVI-to-Component converter? Would that be possible for somebody to make?
Old 02-22-05, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Molotov
What about HDMI/DVI-to-Component converter? Would that be possible for somebody to make?
I doubt any big name company would be able to release it without the industry coming down on them, much like companies getting in trouble today for offering upconverting dvd players which pass the video signal through component outs.

I still don't buy into this fear though. It's all he said/she said until we see actual specs of the hardware. As I have said before, how will Sony release a PS3 to a mass market which can't support dvi or hdmi only?

More than likely both format sides are still sizing each other up. Fox has already released HD titles on D-theater that utilizes the Comp and S-video connections. It's just a waiting game at this point to see who jumps first and who makes the first costly mistake.
Old 02-22-05, 09:39 PM
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We all won't know until later this year. Best guess is they will include some cheap Component outs to satisfy the crowds. Basically what Josh Z said.
Old 02-22-05, 10:05 PM
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way to kill any chance of success. punishing a large portion of the market. enough with the copy protection. if there is a will, there is a way. it will be cracked, they just need to accept it.
Old 02-22-05, 10:42 PM
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U.S. Appeals Court Debates Anti-Piracy TV Technology in Order to Stop Internet Distribution
By TED BRIDIS
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON Feb 22, 2005 — A U.S. appeals panel on Tuesday challenged new federal rules requiring certain video devices to have technology to prevent copying digital television programs and distributing them over the Internet.

U.S. Circuit Judge Harry T. Edwards told the Federal Communications Commission it "crossed the line" requiring the new anti-piracy technology in next-generation television devices. But another appeals judge on the panel questioned whether consumers can challenge the FCC's rules in the courtroom.

The technology, known as the broadcast flag, will be required after July 1 for televisions equipped to receive new digital signals, many personal computers and VCR-type recording devices. It would permit entertainment companies to designate, or flag, programs to prevent viewers from copying shows or distributing them over the Internet.

Edwards, the former chief judge of the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, questioned the FCC's authority to impose regulations affecting television broadcasts after such programs are beamed into households.

The FCC's lawyer, Jacob M. Lewis, acknowledged the agency never had exercised such ancillary power but maintained it was permitted by Congress since lawmakers didn't explicitly outlaw it.

"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world," Edwards said. He said the FCC "crossed the line" beyond its authority approved by Congress. "You've gone too far," he said. "Are washing machines next?"

Another circuit judge, David B. Sentelle, agreed. Sentelle acknowledged entertainment companies could be reluctant to broadcast high-quality movies or TV shows that can't be protected against copyright violators but said that wasn't the FCC's problem.

"It's going to have less content if it's not protected, but Congress didn't direct that you have to maximize content," Sentelle said. "You can't regulate washing machines. You can't rule the world."

Consumers groups, including library associations, have contested the FCC requirements, asserting that the rules will drive up prices of digital television devices and prevent consumers from recording programs in ways permitted under copyright laws.

The lawyer for the consumers groups, Pantelis Michalopoulos, argued that the broadcast flag could preclude libraries from copying television programs for educational or teaching purposes.

But Sentelle questioned whether the consumer and library groups can lawfully challenge the FCC decision, since the rules in question affect television viewers broadly. Appeals court procedures require groups to be able to show a particular injury before judges will consider a case; the FCC did not argue this point.

If the appeals panel decides that the consumers groups can't contest the FCC requirements, it would dismiss the case regardless of any concerns about the anti-piracy technology. A decision by the court could happen within months.
Old 02-22-05, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by speedyray
Though it sucks for some, I assume that is how it will be from what I read and hear. It is just the price some early adopters will pay. I mean it is not the first time early adopters got screwed (I have been an early adopter and got the shaft myself) - so though it hurts - it comes with the territory (being an early adopter is risky).
But some people just boughts some sets a year ago that do not have these inputs. Are they still considered early adopters?

This is going to be a mess. First you have the HD vs BluRay and through in the fact that a lot of tv's that were sold as HD ready are only going to be some portion ready.
Old 02-23-05, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Worms
But some people just boughts some sets a year ago that do not have these inputs. Are they still considered early adopters?

This is going to be a mess. First you have the HD vs BluRay and through in the fact that a lot of tv's that were sold as HD ready are only going to be some portion ready.
If they bought them that recently I would say they did not do proper research and they do not have them because of their own ignorance or lack of planning. No offense if I am talking about anyone here, but DVI has been out for quite some time and HDMI is on pretty much everything made now (decent quality sets that is).

When I bought my Toshiba 57 a month ago the most important deciding factor between it and a Mitsu was inputs - No HDMI on the Mitsu. I payed a little extra for HDMI. (I like the Toshiba better anyway - Mitsu was just cheaper)

Oh, and yes, I think we are just now between Chirtmas and the Super Bowl coming out of the early adopter period. The numeber of people with HD sets that I know has tripled or maybe even quadrupled since Christmas.

Last edited by speedyray; 02-23-05 at 05:10 AM.
Old 02-23-05, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarantino
Damn HDMI...I have a DVI port on my TV...hope DVI compatibility is out there...
You don't have to worry. The video portion of HDMI is 100% DVI compatible, and there is a plethora (well, OK, maybe not a plethora, but a pretty good selection) of DVI/HDMI adapters available. Most are in the form of a simple connector adapter that fits on the back of your DVI-equipped set, turning its connector into a video-only HDMI connector.
Old 02-23-05, 12:03 PM
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OK, if that's true about "crippling" HD output onto component, that's going to kill the rollout of HD-DVD for a while... in my case, I have a 16:9 HDTV, 3 years old (Mitsubishi), with only component connections (and RGB-HV) and a brand new Denon w/ only component switching.... so I know in my case, I won't be jumping on any HD-DVD bandwagon for many years to come, until I can afford another HDTV and reciever with the right connections. This seems short-sighted on the part of HD-DVD's camp. My best hope, if this is true, is that there will be a class of chinese-built HD-DVD players that will be hackable, so as not to cripple the component down to 480p.

Last edited by ShagMan; 02-23-05 at 12:08 PM.
Old 02-23-05, 12:34 PM
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You don't have to worry. The video portion of HDMI is 100% DVI compatible, and there is a plethora (well, OK, maybe not a plethora, but a pretty good selection) of DVI/HDMI adapters available. Most are in the form of a simple connector adapter that fits on the back of your DVI-equipped set, turning its connector into a video-only HDMI connector.
But, how do we know with HD-DVD or Blu Ray that something won't be encoded that makes HDMI mandatory? I know the only difference between HDMI and DVI is that HDMI has the audio part --- but I just wonder if they will throw another loop into all of this.
Old 02-23-05, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Early reports were that the plan would be for the players to have a traditional component output, but that the video would be downscaled to standard DVD resolution if using it. Only the digital output will offer full HD resolution output. I still expect that this will be the case.

There is zero possibility of either HD-DVD or BluRay offering full HD resolution output from the traditional component outputs.
Do you have a source on this Josh or is it a just a personal opinion. To say that there's a zero possibility is a pretty strong statement. You start off your post by saying "early reports were" so that could have changed in the last year or few years. So if you have any concrete info can you please share it with us?

Given how these players were just demo'd at CES, I'm really surprised that no one who had the chance to look at one up close has reported on the connection types on these demo units or relayed any further info from discussions at the show. Even if the demo units had DVI/HDMI only it wouldn't surprise me if the manufacturer's marketing folks convinced them that it would be a big mistake to cripple or eliminate full HD through component and add it in before they ship.

Besides wishful thinking on my part since my Mits has no DVI/HDMI I wouldn't want to use it even if it did. I've read so many posts lately about problems with these digital inputs and the quality decrease when they're used. Some devices don't know which color space to use, some crush whites, others blacks, poor handshaking between devices. Now there are reports that even on some flat panel digital HDTVs like LCD and DLP that the signal is still being converted to analog thus voiding the notion that the signal remains purely digital from source to display.
Old 02-23-05, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidH
But, how do we know with HD-DVD or Blu Ray that something won't be encoded that makes HDMI mandatory? I know the only difference between HDMI and DVI is that HDMI has the audio part --- but I just wonder if they will throw another loop into all of this.
Because HDMI isn't the sole property of HD-DVD. It was developed to be used as an interconnect for all A/V devices, and it uses a copy protection mechanism that has already been approved and accepted by all of the requisite parties. And that copy protection mechanism is identical to the one employed on DVI. There is no reason for them to "throw another loop" into the equation, simply to enforce one physical connector versus another. In fact, the content owners don't really care whether it is DVI or HDMI that is used, they only care about the protection. HDMI is only becoming the standard because hardware manufacturers want it to be. It greatly simplifies the design of the connections on their products. And, ultimately, it will greatly simplify our installations as well. I am really looking forward to being able to have one cable running from device to device that carries all of the data.
Old 02-23-05, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Lowrey
So if I read this right, the 3-way component outputs will only handle 480p resolution? And even DVI won't be fully compatible with HD output?

Boy, what a way to kill early market switch-over, if even the most modern connection now won't even do the trick. If this is the case, I don't see HD-DVD taking over for another good 5 years or more. Until HD TVs with the appropriate connections get cheap enough for everybody to afford, the standard DVD will continue to reign supreme in sales.
I agree and I add that it will take longer for this changeover to happen if they have to wait for those of us without a digital out for our sets to wear out enough for replacement.

They need to be very careful not to screw the early adopters of HDTV since these are the same exact people they are trying to get to buy into this new format.

If there is no way to get full HD out on component in the set, I fully expect and will participate in a class action lawsuit.
Old 02-23-05, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
Because HDMI isn't the sole property of HD-DVD. It was developed to be used as an interconnect for all A/V devices, and it uses a copy protection mechanism that has already been approved and accepted by all of the requisite parties. And that copy protection mechanism is identical to the one employed on DVI. There is no reason for them to "throw another loop" into the equation, simply to enforce one physical connector versus another. In fact, the content owners don't really care whether it is DVI or HDMI that is used, they only care about the protection. HDMI is only becoming the standard because hardware manufacturers want it to be. It greatly simplifies the design of the connections on their products. And, ultimately, it will greatly simplify our installations as well. I am really looking forward to being able to have one cable running from device to device that carries all of the data.
So, people are "safe" buying a TV that only has a DVI connection? I'm asking because I know of someone looking at a new Mits but it only has DVI and not HDMI.
Old 02-23-05, 02:41 PM
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Well this sucks. My 65" Mit that I bought about 3 years ago doesn't have DVI or HDMI; just a Firewire connection. What am I supposed to do?
Old 02-23-05, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
I agree and I add that it will take longer for this changeover to happen if they have to wait for those of us without a digital out for our sets to wear out enough for replacement.

They need to be very careful not to screw the early adopters of HDTV since these are the same exact people they are trying to get to buy into this new format.

If there is no way to get full HD out on component in the set, I fully expect and will participate in a class action lawsuit.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with component for HD signals and the only reason to use DVI/HDMI is for copy protection purposes and even that is a stupid reason since there are no video recorders that will accept an HD signal from component. If they want the next generation formats to catch on and succeed they need to allow these legacy connections at full bandwidth.

By the way has anyone seen this link from DVDFile. It sounds to me like nothing is finalized just yet. Until I see final specs and a finished unit I'll continue to think that they'll include HD through component and if they don't then I'm in on the law suit.

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