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View Full Version : Are we living in a fascist state?


dick_grayson
02-02-05, 03:27 PM
http://www.bushflash.com/14.html


This should spark some healthy discussion! Enjoy.

al_bundy
02-02-05, 03:29 PM
yes

my wife got a ticket for jaywalking. the patriot act is now taking away her right to walk where she wants to

natevines
02-02-05, 03:29 PM
No, but I sure wish we were.

Myster X
02-02-05, 03:30 PM
what a loon

wendersfan
02-02-05, 03:31 PM
An excellent example of the power of distorted imagery.

al_bundy
02-02-05, 03:32 PM
funny how all kinds of creative accounting happens under clinton, but it's bush's fault

nemein
02-02-05, 03:33 PM
The simple fact this website is allowed to exist and this guy hasn't been "disappeared" is proof enough that he's full of it IMHO.

natevines
02-02-05, 03:35 PM
Oh, and I might add, isn't the fact that we're looking at something sharply criticizing the government as being fascist somewhat contradictory? I would think that a fascist nation would want to supress dissent, yet I see anti-Bush sentiment much more frequently than pro-Bush sentiment.
And I love how the 'disdain for the arts' one has a person holding a poster protesting the Dixie Chicks. Yes, they're very artistic.

wendersfan
02-02-05, 03:35 PM
The simple fact this website is allowed to exist and this guy hasn't been "disappeared" is proof enough that he's full of it IMHO.That too.

al_bundy
02-02-05, 03:36 PM
i know i'm living in a fascist state

i live in a place where getting a gun permit is a huge ordeal and the local government here wants to sue gun makers out of existance. if that isn't fascist and a violation of my constitutional rights then i don't know what is

Tommy Ceez
02-02-05, 03:36 PM
The disingenous application of almost all 14 of those points kind of takes away from some of the issues where Americas current climate could apply ( 2 or 3 of them).

Esentially, the point of the piece is that "If you ALREADY believe that America is a facist state, then this will PROVE (keeping your pre-determined bias in mind) that it is true.

Most annoying - Didnt Gore's team initiate the use of the judiciary in the 2000 election?

kvrdave
02-02-05, 03:44 PM
Are you allowed to ask that in a fascist state?

jaeufraser
02-02-05, 03:47 PM
No. If you think we do, well, then you're wrong.

Myster X
02-02-05, 03:49 PM
No. If you think we do, well, then you're wrong.

Actually, San Francisco is a facist state.

taa455
02-02-05, 03:53 PM
Is that Michael Moore's latest film?

kvrdave
02-02-05, 04:06 PM
Is that Michael Moore's latest film?

Too coherent.

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:14 PM
most are pretty weak, I agree. the stuff about corporations having too much protection.....

anyway, I'm glad no one took it too seriously

Mutley Hyde
02-02-05, 04:15 PM
What crap. Dr. Lawrence Britt (whoever he is) came up with these 14 defining points in 2003. You think it was tailor made so that it could fit a particular agenda?

You betcha!

al_bundy
02-02-05, 04:17 PM
clinton did more for enron than bush

he lobbied to get the pollution credits into kyoto because enron lobbied him on it because they wanted to control the market for trading those credits

a lot of clinton's people went on to nice corporate jobs and the amount of investigations of businesses by the government increased when bush came in. you can't investigate your future employer while in the government

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:18 PM
clinton did more for enron than bush

he lobbied to get the pollution credits into kyoto because enron lobbied him on it because they wanted to control the market for trading those credits

a lot of clinton's people went on to nice corporate jobs and the amount of investigations of businesses by the government increased when bush came in. you can't investigate your future employer while in the government

well, there's always Halliburton

kvrdave
02-02-05, 04:26 PM
well, there's always Halliburton
:lol: Are you just stirring the shit, or do you really want to compare Haliburton to Enron?

VinVega
02-02-05, 04:29 PM
When we live in a fascist state, you'll know it. You won't talk about it, but you'll know it. ;)

Mad Dawg
02-02-05, 04:29 PM
Yes. There is always Halliburton, who received preferential treatment in the mid-90s from the US government. Of course, they got that treatment because there are few companies with the proven capabilities and resources that they have, but we may as well level the playing field with our partisan charges, right?

As far as the flash movie, I've said it before and I'll say it again. No matter how much one tries to dress up the old Bush=Hitler stance, it doesn't make it any less ridiculous or offensive.

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:34 PM
well, then are we HEADING toward a fasicst state or is that a bunch of hogwash too?

I'm not tyring to be a dick or anything. I realize the flash movie is manipulative, but a lot of what the administration is doing Patriot Act is pretty scary.

mikehunt
02-02-05, 04:39 PM
well, there's always Halliburton

you mean that company that had gov't contracts when clinton was president?

VinVega
02-02-05, 04:39 PM
well, then are we HEADING toward a fasicst state or is that a bunch of hogwash too?

I'm not tyring to be a dick or anything. I realize the flash movie is manipulative, but a lot of what the administration is doing Patriot Act is pretty scary.
But you are a "dick" :hscratch:

;)

My take, we're slightly more fascist than we were prior to Bush entering office. How's that?

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:40 PM
you mean that company that had gov't contracts when clinton was president?

that doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying they appeared out of thin air to get all the no-bid contracts.

mikehunt
02-02-05, 04:44 PM
for anyone that claims the patriot act is facist, have you read it? if so can you point out the parts that are facist?
I'll be reading it now to see if anything jumps out at me
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.3162.ENR:

Mutley Hyde
02-02-05, 04:46 PM
Be careful nothing jumps out... and grabs you and throws you in jail for an undetermined amount of time without representation just for looking!! AIEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

Mad Dawg
02-02-05, 04:47 PM
that doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying they appeared out of thin air to get all the no-bid contracts.

You do know that they received a no-bid contract in the 90s, right?

Anyway, no, we aren't heading toward facism. Just like we wouldn't have become communist or socialist under Kerry.

wendersfan
02-02-05, 04:47 PM
My take, we're slightly more fascist than we were prior to Bush entering office. How's that?I'll agree with that. But what about this assertion - we're less fascist now than we were when FDR was President.

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:47 PM
for anyone that claims the patriot act is facist, have you read it? if so can you point out the parts that are facist?
I'll be reading it now to see if anything jumps out at me
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.3162.ENR:

for starters:

Allows the government to enter and search your home, without ever informing you. The U.S. Constitution requires not only probable cause to search, but that you be notified of the search. This law- Section 213 of the Patriot Act -- circumvents the notice requirement of the 4th Amendment.

Section 216 of the PATRIOT ACT allows the government to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge MUST rubber stamp a warrant as long as law enforcement certifies that the surveillance is "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of
criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. This violates the probable cause provision of the 4th Amendment.

Further, Section 218 allows the government to carry out secret searches and wiretaps without showing probable cause merely by certifying that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This also evades the 4th Amendment.

Section 802 creates the crime of "domestic terrorism." This criminalizes acts that "appear to be intended" to "influence the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion" or to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

This section would make just about any act of civil disobedience in protest against government policies into an act of domestic terrorism.

Section 411 in tandem with section 802, expands the power of government to designate a group a "foreign terrorist organization." Any group which endorses so-called "terrorist activity," which under 802 may be otherwise lawful protest activity, can be designated a terrorist organization. This would enable government to designate such groups as the protestors at Vieques, Puerto Rico, or those against the World Trade Organization.

Section 411 also allows the government to indict anyone who provides material support or assistance to a terrorist organization. If you provided humanitarian or medical assistance to the Northern Alliance - foes of bin Laden - you could be arrested for supporting terrorism.

Finally, Section 412 of the PATRIOT Act permits the government to arrest and detain immigrants indefinitely for nothing more than a visa violation. In fact, of the 1200 known immigrant detentions since 9/11, the ACLU determined that only about five were detained on terrorism-related charges. Because the Department of Justice refused to release any information, the ACLU obtained this information from foreign embassies to whom the DOJ had courteously supplied the information where it affected one of their citizens.

dick_grayson
02-02-05, 04:48 PM
You do know that they received a no-bid contract in the 90s, right?



I know all.

kvrdave
02-02-05, 04:50 PM
well, then are we HEADING toward a fasicst state or is that a bunch of hogwash too?

I'm not tyring to be a dick or anything. I realize the flash movie is manipulative, but a lot of what the administration is doing Patriot Act is pretty scary.

No more than ever. We swing wrt politics, but we don't really even swing that wildly. How big was the difference between Reagan and Clinton on a "world view" political spectrum? Not much.

The hippies and protest lovers, just love a good protest. Most actions they protest they would support if it were a different party in office.

mikehunt
02-02-05, 04:51 PM
that doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying they appeared out of thin air to get all the no-bid contracts.

you know why they get these contracts? because they're one of the few companies that can do that kind of work and have experience doing it
http://bmonday.com/archive/2004/02/10/517.aspx
* In the early 1990s, the Army Corps of Engineers decided they needed to retain a US company under a long term contract to provide random services to the Army as needed. The Army needed a method to get things done on short notice without having to go through the exhaustive government procurement and bidding process for every project. This was dubbed “Logistics Civil Augmentation Program“, or LOGCAP.
* In 1992 Halliburton won the bidding process for this contract, and lost it in 1997 to Dynacorp.
* Despite having lost the contract in 1997, Halliburton was awarded a no-bid contract by the Clinton administration to conduct work needed by US Peacekeepers in the Balkans because it made little sense to change contractors in mid-stream. Halliburton already had boots on the ground, and had experience doing what the Army needed them to do. In fact, Halliburton became one of the Clinton administration's favorite outsourcing contractors, doing work for them in Haiti and Somalia, as well as Bosnia.
* In 2001, Halliburton was again awarded with the LOGCAP contract, after the requisite bidding process.
* In the months leading up to the current conflict in Iraq, Halliburton was asked (under LOGCAP) to formulate a contingency plan to deal with Iraqi oil fires, should Saddam Hussein repeat his crimes of the first Gulf War by setting his oil wells on fire. Halliburton had put out 350 such fires in Kuwait, so they seemed the logical choice to turn to for such advice. "To invite other contractors to compete to perform a highly classified requirement that Kellogg Brown & Root [Halliburton] was already under a competitively awarded contract to perform would have been a wasteful duplication of effort," said the commander of the Army Corps of Engineers, Lt. General Robert Flowers.
* In February of 2003, on the eve of hostilities, Halliburton was tapped to implement the contingency plan it had created, under the LOGCAP contract. "Only [Halliburton], the contractor that developed the complex, classified contingency plans, could commence implementing them on extremely short notice“, wrote Lt. General Flowers.
* Not knowing how many oil wells would be set ablaze by Saddam, the Army estimated the value of this contract at “between $0 and $7 Billion“ (the fires in Kuwait had cost $2.5B to extinguish). The actual value of the contract is now estimated to be around $600M, but the detractors still cling to the $7B number when attacking the administration about it.

General Zod
02-02-05, 05:05 PM
you know why they get these contracts? because they're one of the few companies that can do that kind of work and have experience doing it
http://bmonday.com/archive/2004/02/10/517.aspx
I've posted this same thing on the same topic to Mr. Grayson more than once. It's either ignored or he suffers from short term memory loss. I don't think facts are going to get you anywhere. Nothing will change some peoples minds that the real dealing was made in some smoke filled room so that Cheney can line his pockets with more money.. while there is no proof this is the case, there is also none that it isn't.. so people will continue to believe what they will.

mikehunt
02-02-05, 05:06 PM
for starters:

Allows the government to enter and search your home, without ever informing you. The U.S. Constitution requires not only probable cause to search, but that you be notified of the search. This law- Section 213 of the Patriot Act -- circumvents the notice requirement of the 4th Amendment.
what notice requirement? I'm reading the 4th right now. It says the warrant must describe what is to be searched. Nothing about giving notice.


Section 216 of the PATRIOT ACT allows the government to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge MUST rubber stamp a warrant as long as law enforcement certifies that the surveillance is "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of
criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. This violates the probable cause provision of the 4th Amendment.
Further, Section 218 allows the government to carry out secret searches and wiretaps without showing probable cause merely by certifying that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This also evades the 4th Amendment.
I agree that not requiring probable cause is a problem

Section 802 creates the crime of "domestic terrorism." This criminalizes acts that "appear to be intended" to "influence the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion" or to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

This section would make just about any act of civil disobedience in protest against government policies into an act of domestic terrorism.
Key section of that: <b>intimidation or coercion</b>. The 1st Amendment specifically says "...peaceably to assemble and to petition the gov't"

Section 411 in tandem with section 802, expands the power of government to designate a group a "foreign terrorist organization." Any group which endorses so-called "terrorist activity," which under 802 may be otherwise lawful protest activity, can be designated a terrorist organization. This would enable government to designate such groups as the protestors at Vieques, Puerto Rico, or those against the World Trade Organization.
You mean those WTO protestors that destroy private property and throw shit at police? yes they are terrorists. Again I direct you to the 1st Amendment. Peaceably assemble.

Section 411 also allows the government to indict anyone who provides material support or assistance to a terrorist organization. If you provided humanitarian or medical assistance to the Northern Alliance - foes of bin Laden - you could be arrested for supporting terrorism.
I'll admit this could be used too broadly

Finally, Section 412 of the PATRIOT Act permits the government to arrest and detain immigrants indefinitely for nothing more than a visa violation. In fact, of the 1200 known immigrant detentions since 9/11, the ACLU determined that only about five were detained on terrorism-related charges. Because the Department of Justice refused to release any information, the ACLU obtained this information from foreign embassies to whom the DOJ had courteously supplied the information where it affected one of their citizens.
I'll agree the indefinite detaining is wrong. If I was in charge they'd be investigated and then deported if they were not part of some criminal group

VinVega
02-02-05, 05:07 PM
I'll agree with that. But what about this assertion - we're less fascist now than we were when FDR was President.
Are you referring to the New Deal or measures put in place during the war years?

Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. What a Fascist move and just typical of Republicans. ;)

al_bundy
02-02-05, 05:37 PM
for starters:

Allows the government to enter and search your home, without ever informing you. The U.S. Constitution requires not only probable cause to search, but that you be notified of the search. This law- Section 213 of the Patriot Act -- circumvents the notice requirement of the 4th Amendment.

Section 216 of the PATRIOT ACT allows the government to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge MUST rubber stamp a warrant as long as law enforcement certifies that the surveillance is "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of
criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. This violates the probable cause provision of the 4th Amendment.

Further, Section 218 allows the government to carry out secret searches and wiretaps without showing probable cause merely by certifying that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This also evades the 4th Amendment.

Section 802 creates the crime of "domestic terrorism." This criminalizes acts that "appear to be intended" to "influence the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion" or to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

This section would make just about any act of civil disobedience in protest against government policies into an act of domestic terrorism.

Section 411 in tandem with section 802, expands the power of government to designate a group a "foreign terrorist organization." Any group which endorses so-called "terrorist activity," which under 802 may be otherwise lawful protest activity, can be designated a terrorist organization. This would enable government to designate such groups as the protestors at Vieques, Puerto Rico, or those against the World Trade Organization.

Section 411 also allows the government to indict anyone who provides material support or assistance to a terrorist organization. If you provided humanitarian or medical assistance to the Northern Alliance - foes of bin Laden - you could be arrested for supporting terrorism.

Finally, Section 412 of the PATRIOT Act permits the government to arrest and detain immigrants indefinitely for nothing more than a visa violation. In fact, of the 1200 known immigrant detentions since 9/11, the ACLU determined that only about five were detained on terrorism-related charges. Because the Department of Justice refused to release any information, the ACLU obtained this information from foreign embassies to whom the DOJ had courteously supplied the information where it affected one of their citizens.

if there is a criminal organization don't you think there is probable cause?

bhk
02-02-05, 05:47 PM
I suspect that FDR is cited for rounding up the Japanese and putting them into camps.

nevermind
02-02-05, 07:46 PM
I know all.


COOL!

If a falling cat always lands on it's feet, and a dropped piece of toast always hits the ground butter side down, what would happen if you strapped a piece of toast butter side up on a cat's back and dropped it?

I've always wondered what the answer is to this. Help me -kthx.

:D

wendersfan
02-02-05, 08:07 PM
Are you referring to the New Deal or measures put in place during the war years?Well, all of the above, but mostly I was referring to programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps. My father was in the CCC and he used to tell me stories about being in "the camps". I think it was probably some of his most fondly remembered experiences, BTW.

DVD Polizei
02-02-05, 08:27 PM
We simply cannot be living in a fascist state, because this moron would've been shot in the head by now and his damn website deleted.

Goldblum
02-02-05, 08:29 PM
anyway, I'm glad no one took it too seriously
There was no fear of that.

VinVega
02-02-05, 10:01 PM
Well, all of the above, but mostly I was referring to programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps. My father was in the CCC and he used to tell me stories about being in "the camps". I think it was probably some of his most fondly remembered experiences, BTW.
I'll grant you that. Sometimes you need a little Fascism to avoid Communism. There was a real danger of the during the Great Depression.

wendersfan
02-02-05, 10:09 PM
I'll grant you that. Sometimes you need a little Fascism to avoid Communism. There was a real danger of the during the Great Depression.I would agree. I certainly didn't mean to imply that I thought that our country was <i>dangerously</i> fascist during FDRs terms of office. I was mostly trying to point out that governmental control of society ebbs and flows, and it crosses partisan boundaries. I also wanted to poke a little fun at that darling of Democratic liberalism, FDR. :)

Nazgul
02-02-05, 10:33 PM
We're not working hard enough, I guess. :(

We've got a shade under four years to make this happen.

dick_grayson
02-03-05, 09:07 AM
I think the clip depends largely on viewing Bush'd most fervent/most extreme supporters as if they represent the mainstream. Sure, if you frame it that way, it looks kind of fascist. But that's not America. The worst you could say is that Bush is a would-be demagogue, and his hardcore supporters show fascist tendencies---I think you could say the same about many leaders.

wendersfan
02-03-05, 09:12 AM
I think the clip depends largely on viewing Bush'd most fervent/most extreme supporters as if they represent the mainstream. Sure, if you frame it that way, it looks kind of fascist. But that's not America. The worst you could say is that Bush is a would-be demagogue, and his hardcore supporters show fascist tendencies---I think you could say the same about many leaders.I think you're coming around. :) One thing that bugged me is how attacks on Bush by the radical left lack any kind of consistency. On one hand Bush is attacked because he glorifies the military, but on the other hand he is attacked because he treats the military like shit. Which is it? Also, in doing so the left is taking opposing stances of their own on the role of the military in the US.

I have a very low tolerance for, as you put it quite well, 'would be demagogues', but Bush doesn't bother me any more than any other President in my memory.

classicman2
02-03-05, 09:33 AM
Some would arguet that the country was closer to communism than fascism during Roosevelt's tenure.

wendersfan
02-03-05, 09:42 AM
Some would arguet that the country was closer to communism than fascism during Roosevelt's tenure.
I'd just say that the Federal government was taking more control of the country, and whether you think that's the road to fascism or the road to communism probably says more about you than it does about the country.

DJLinus
02-03-05, 11:11 AM
On a local level: smoking bans.

wendersfan
02-03-05, 11:17 AM
On a local level: smoking bans.That's really got you worked up, doesn't it? :lol:

DJLinus
02-03-05, 11:27 AM
Yeah, it does. It didn't so much in the past until I wrote a paper about them (well, the whole anti-tobacco movement) and saw all of the misinformation out there. Plus, my hometown's Richmond, VA, which is Tobacco Country USA.

classicman2
02-03-05, 11:33 AM
On a local level: smoking bans.

Probably a majority of people support those bans - how is that fascism - sounds like democracy to me?

Geofferson
02-03-05, 11:34 AM
On a local level: smoking bans.
I'm not even a smoker and this pisses me off.

Mutley Hyde
02-03-05, 12:02 PM
Probably a majority of people support those bans - how is that fascism - sounds like democracy to me?

Exactly.

As well as most of the other stuff brought up. It's not a problem with Congress making laws for an elite few, but with lobbyists continually forcing Congress' hands in whatever direction is popular at the moment.

In a fascist state, lobbyists would be hauled to jail, or worse.

Red Dog
02-03-05, 12:19 PM
sounds like democracy to me?


Democracy by dumb-ass carbon blobs who don't understand the concept of property rights, but democracy nonetheless.

DJLinus
02-03-05, 12:26 PM
Probably a majority of people support those bans - how is that fascism - sounds like democracy to me?

I'll give you that if the ban was put up to a vote, but not all of them are. For instance, the city council where I live enacted ours. There was no popular vote on it.

classicman2
02-03-05, 12:40 PM
I didn't say I agreed with smoking bans. I don't. It's an example of democracy, however. There are some bad things about democracy.

Mutley Hyde
02-03-05, 01:03 PM
I'll give you that if the ban was put up to a vote, but not all of them are. For instance, the city council where I live enacted ours. There was no popular vote on it.

Um, city government is wayyyyyy different than state or federal government. Okay, so you live in a fascist city. Actually, you don't, because your council members are supposed to represent your community. If it doesn't, you need to work harder on voting their asses out of the council. I'm from Dallas, so believe me, I know how downright ridiculous city councils can get. Ours has been a goddamned trainwreck for the past 20 years, if not longer.

wendersfan
02-03-05, 01:07 PM
Um, city government is wayyyyyy different than state or federal government. Okay, so you live in a fascist city. Actually, you don't, because your council members are supposed to represent your community. If it doesn't, you need to work harder on voting their asses out of the council. I'm from Dallas, so believe me, I know how downright ridiculous city councils can get. Ours has been a goddamned trainwreck for the past 20 years, if not longer.
Since our entire city council is elected "at-large" I don't even know if they are supposed to represent us at all.