Pertaining to "suspending disbelief" while watching movies..

[Chill Pill]

Its really not that hard for me to do, I dont care how ridiculous a movie is. However..

there are a few movies which... man, I just had a hard as hell time doing it. I swear the movie makers just threw this shit in to piss me off. Here they are:

1. Jedi.. when the ewoks are knocking out stormtroopers throwing rocks.
2. FOTR.. at the end when the two hobbits are knocking out orcs throwing rocks.

??????

Everything else I can excuse.. but a movie like FOTR with so much time and money used to create, why this?? Why couldn't those two hobbits have just stood there, watching? Why did they have to start throwing rocks, small ones, mind you, and killing huge orcs?

[Jackskeleton]

the idea that you can believe in ewoks and hobbits without questioning it worries me

[jaeufraser]

Considering that these films didn't show orcs or stormtroopers dying because of rocks, instead just quick shots of them getting hit and falling over, I'm not sure what's so hard to suspecd your disbelief about. They throw rocks, someone falls over. Perhaps they wouldn't completely fall over and just stumble, but who really cares. We're talking a few couple second shots.

[The Ferret]

the idea that you can believe in ewoks and hobbits without questioning it worries me
:lol:

Yeah i see what you mean though. Recently my dad said he had problems suspending his disbelief watching The Aviator. Since he was around when all these stars were it was hard to watch these caricatures of them. No problem for me though! -biggrin-

Edit: except Katherine Hepburn, she was a bit much for me, not to say that Blanchette didn't do a great job. The problem was she played her so well...

[Chill Pill]

the idea that you can believe in ewoks and hobbits without questioning it worries me

Ewoks and hobbits must obey, along with their thrown projectiles, the laws of simple gravity.

Some things, like fucking gravity, can't be ignored.

WHY DID THESE ORCS FALL OVER FROM PEBBLES THROWN BY HOBBITS? I challenge anyone to provide a logical answer.

[Chill Pill]

:lol:

Yeah i see what you mean though. Recently my dad said he had problems suspending his disbelief watching The Aviator. Since he was around when all these stars were it was hard to watch these caricatures of them. No problem for me though! -biggrin-

Edit: except Katherine Hepburn, she was a bit much for me, not to say that Blanchette didn't do a great job. The problem was she played her so well...

How you go from Ewoks to Hepburn worries me, my friend.

[FinkPish]

Ewoks and hobbits must obey, along with their thrown projectiles, the laws of simple gravity.

Some things, like fucking gravity, can't be ignored.

WHY DID THESE ORCS FALL OVER FROM PEBBLES THROWN BY HOBBITS? I challenge anyone to provide a logical answer.
You are reading too much into the action on screen. I just watched that scene over again, and I don't see one Orc get knocked out or even fall over from the rocks thrown by Merry and Pippen. They are throwing rocks, and you just inferred that they knocked some Orcs over.

As for the Ewoks, they weren't really throwing pebbles themselves, they were dropping close to head-sized rocks on the stormtroopers. Anyone would fall over from that.

You seem to be getting worked up over nothing.

[Chill Pill]

You are reading too much into the action on screen. I just watched that scene over again, and I don't see one Orc get knocked out or even fall over from the rocks thrown by Merry and Pippen. They are throwing rocks, and you just inferred that they knocked some Orcs over.

As for the Ewoks, they weren't really throwing pebbles themselves, they were dropping close to head-sized rocks on the stormtroopers. Anyone would fall over from that.

You seem to be getting worked up over nothing.

"getting worked up over nothing" is my middle name.

I love these movies as much as anyone, don't get me wrong.

I just finished watching FOTR, and the hobbits would throw rocks, next shot I see orcs getting hit with rocks and falling over. I dunno, maybe those rocks fell from the sky.

And those damn ewoks must be pretty strong lil' sonsabitches to be able to pick up and throw them huge boulders like peanuts...

[FinkPish]

"getting worked up over nothing" is my middle name.

I love these movies as much as anyone, don't get me wrong.

I just finished watching FOTR, and the hobbits would throw rocks, next shot I see orcs getting hit with rocks and falling over. I dunno, maybe those rocks fell from the sky.

And those damn ewoks must be pretty strong lil' sonsabitches to be able to pick up and throw them huge boulders like peanuts...
OK, apparently you were watching the EE, which does have this. At this point, I don't know what to tell you. You seem intent on not suspending your disbelief regarding this, so what is the point of arguing with you. :D

[caligulathegod]

I dunno. Ever get hit with a rock? It freaking hurts.

[Duder]

Three points.

1. Hobbits are reknowned for their rock-throwing.
2. The ewoks were, as noted, dropping some pretty large rocks.
3. Momentum equals mass times velocity. A small rock thrown fast will knock a person over just the same as a larger rock thrown slower, due to the conservation of momentum.

[Chill Pill]

Three points.

1. Hobbits are reknowned for their rock-throwing.
2. The ewoks were, as noted, dropping some pretty large rocks.
3. Momentum equals mass times velocity. A small rock thrown fast will knock a person over just the same as a larger rock thrown slower, due to the conservation of momentum.

This is good stuff, Duder. I guess if I want an explanation bad enough I can make it work.

But still...

[Rivero]

WHY DID THESE ORCS FALL OVER FROM PEBBLES THROWN BY HOBBITS? I challenge anyone to provide a logical answer.


Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck are the two physically strongest halflings in the Shire. Tolkien details in the Book One chapter 'A Conspiracy Unmasked' how a year prior to the four hobbits meeting in Crickhollow, Merry and Pippin placed first and second place respectively in the Shot Put competition at the Hobbiton Olympics, throwing the hardest and the furthest out of all of the hobbits in the Shire. Pippin even screams a declarative "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" before each of his throws, evocing the name of one of the mighty Valar of Middle-Earth. It's Chapter Five if you want to look it up.

[tanman]

Honestly I know what he is saying in general. That is the problem with any story when there is only a handful of good guys against an unending number of bad guys. You just have to suspend disbelief. Even when they use a sword some of the orcs seem to drop from paper cuts. And how can storm trooper have all this armor and still be killed so easily, and be such bad shots. Basically the good guys have the cards stacked in their favor.

[Count Dooku]

1. When the Ewoks are... throwing rocks.
2. When the two hobbits are... throwing rocks.

Is it just the idea that rocks can be thrown that you can't wrap your head around?

[caligulathegod]

the idea that you can believe in ewoks and hobbits without questioning it worries me

I've heard it said a rule in screenplays (or stories in general) is that you can expect the audience to accept the impossible but not the improbable. For instance, you can have a man fly but you can't have him open a safe by accidentally happening across the combination by accident.

[Kudama]

Three points.

1. Hobbits are reknowned for their rock-throwing.
2. The ewoks were, as noted, dropping some pretty large rocks.
3. Momentum equals mass times velocity. A small rock thrown fast will knock a person over just the same as a larger rock thrown slower, due to the conservation of momentum.

Three points.

1. Hobbits are reknowned for their rock-throwing.
2. The ewoks were, as noted, dropping some pretty large rocks.
3. Momentum equals mass times velocity. A small rock thrown fast will knock a person over just the same as a larger rock thrown slower, due to the conservation of momentum.

Two more points:

As far as the Hobbit's go: Critical Hit and a secondary roll of 20 (Oh YEAH!). Critical shot to the toe.

As far as Ewoks: Stormtrooper armor was ornamental to the point of being detrimental. I love the angry bumblebee look, but if it cant stop a goddamned jedi mind trick, what good is it in combat? The same must have applied to their ordinance. Aesthetically well designed, but mass (and cheaply) produced.

I am not actually a “strong geek/weak nerd”, but I have played one on TV

[Kudama]

P.S.) Back on Subject:

I think that most humans would not be able to watch “Point of No Return” for more then ten minutes at a time. That whole movie is my personal “Unwatchable Scene” The Max Fischer version of Le Femme Nikita without the humor.

[Doughboy]

I've heard it said a rule in screenplays (or stories in general) is that you can expect the audience to accept the impossible but not the improbable. For instance, you can have a man fly but you can't have him open a safe by accidentally happening across the combination by accident.

I always liked Ivan Reitman's rule when he was discussing Ghostbusters. He said that when dealing with suspension of disbelief, he expects the audience to accept one impossible element of the plot. In the case of Ghostbusters, it's the notion that ghosts exist and you can catch them. If you can run with that, the rest of the movie works.

[talemyn]

2. FOTR.. at the end when the two hobbits are knocking out orcs throwing rocks.

. . .

Everything else I can excuse.. but a movie like FOTR with so much time and money used to create, why this??You can believe Legolas stand-sledding down a flight of stone stairs on a metal shield while firing arrows with lethal accuracy, but being knocked out by a thrown rock brings up doubts?

[Corvin]

WHY DID THESE ORCS FALL OVER FROM PEBBLES THROWN BY HOBBITS? I challenge anyone to provide a logical answer.

I'm not sure how logical it is, and it's been a while since I read Fellowship of the Ring, but in the "Concerning Hobbits" portion of the novel, I believe Tolkien does make a comment that they are exceptionally good throwers or something like that. I went and looked it up. Here it is.

Though slow to quarrel, and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay, and at need could still handle arms. They shot well with the bow, for they were keen-eyed and sure at the mark. Not only with bows and arrows. If any Hobbit stooped for a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover, as all trespassing beats knew very well.

Also, isn't the stone-throwing in FOTR only in the extended edition? Perhaps PJ left it out of the theatrical cut exactly because it might seem a bit silly to most movie-goers, and maybe he figured those watching the EE would be a bit more familiar with the novel and thus able to accept the scene.

[talemyn]

Also, isn't the stone-throwing in FOTR only in the extended edition? Perhaps PJ left it out of the theatrical cut exactly because it might seem a bit silly to most movie-goers, and maybe he figured those watching the EE would be a bit more familiar with the novel and thus able to accept the scene.I think Corvin just called you a Tolkien n00b. :whofart:






;)

[Tracer Bullet]

Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck are the two physically strongest halflings in the Shire. Tolkien details in the Book One chapter 'A Conspiracy Unmasked' how a year prior to the four hobbits meeting in Crickhollow, Merry and Pippin placed first and second place respectively in the Shot Put competition at the Hobbiton Olympics, throwing the hardest and the furthest out of all of the hobbits in the Shire. Pippin even screams a declarative "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" before each of his throws, evocing the name of one of the mighty Valar of Middle-Earth. It's Chapter Five if you want to look it up.

rotfl

This is the only appropriate response.

[PopcornTreeCt]

I never understood how through all that fighting Legolas doesn't ever get a scratch or any mark at all.

[DRG]

I've heard it said a rule in screenplays (or stories in general) is that you can expect the audience to accept the impossible but not the improbable. For instance, you can have a man fly but you can't have him open a safe by accidentally happening across the combination by accident.

This has a lot of truth. For me, I am willing to buy fantastic/sci-fi elements in a story. But when the real world elements (things that we have in real life) are out of whack I won't buy it. For example, on the show Buffy I will buy that there are demons, vampires, etc. But it is still absurd IMO when they can punch up the blueprints to any building in the city within seconds by getting on the internet. :)

[Joe Molotov]

I never understood how through all that fighting Legolas doesn't ever get a scratch or any mark at all.

The fact that he never gets hit might explain that. ;)

[Trigger]

I threw a rock the size of a big toe at some kid's head when I was about 8 or 9 years old... he didn't die, but he went down and he needed stitches and bled alot. I'm sure if I threw a rock at your head today, it's possible that you would die.

[Chill Pill]

I'm not sure how logical it is, and it's been a while since I read Fellowship of the Ring, but in the "Concerning Hobbits" portion of the novel, I believe Tolkien does make a comment that they are exceptionally good throwers or something like that. I went and looked it up. Here it is.



Also, isn't the stone-throwing in FOTR only in the extended edition? Perhaps PJ left it out of the theatrical cut exactly because it might seem a bit silly to most movie-goers, and maybe he figured those watching the EE would be a bit more familiar with the novel and thus able to accept the scene.

Perfect. End of discussion. Thank you.

[Jray]

I never understood how through all that fighting Legolas doesn't ever get a scratch or any mark at all.

Really want to bend your brain?? As we were watching one of the movies recently, my wife turns to me and says "how doesn't he run out of arrows"?? :whofart: "Holy crap" I thought. Good question. I just said "it's a movie". But if you really think about it, he only ever appears to have about a dozen arrows, or so, in his quiver, yet they have huge battles where he is letting go arrow after arrow and never runs out.

I can justify it to myself but this is one of those cases where it is hard to suspend your disbelief after you think about it.

[jaeufraser]

They don't show it, but Legolas picks up arrows from the bodies of others to keep his stock of arrows. As far as I recall at least.

[mikehunt]

I can suspend disbelief as along as the movie obeys the rules of its own universe or there sort of at least semi-logical explanation that obeys the rules of the movie's universe

[Michael Corvin]

I'm fine with everything mentioned. I can go with it. I've mentioned it before, but the only thing that pulls me out of the film is in FOTR. The four hobbits are fleeing the ring wraiths and they escape on the river. One of them points out that the next crossing isn't for another 10 miles. MILES? hello?

[Rivero]

I'm fine with everything mentioned. I can go with it. I've mentioned it before, but the only thing that pulls me out of the film is in FOTR. The four hobbits are fleeing the ring wraiths and they escape on the river. One of them points out that the next crossing isn't for another 10 miles. MILES? hello?

"Middle-Earth" is sprung from Tolkien's imagination but it was also created with a sense of the actual world in mind with seemingly real landmarks, see how Gandalf and Eowyn recite words in Old English in the Two Towers, an ancient Indo-European language of Norse origin. LOTR takes place no more than a few centuries before the beginnings of ancient Rome, when the Latin-derived mile was originally used to illustrate a distance of one-thousand paces.

[Rivero]

Really want to bend your brain?? As we were watching one of the movies recently, my wife turns to me and says "how doesn't he run out of arrows"?? :whofart: "Holy crap" I thought. Good question. I just said "it's a movie". But if you really think about it, he only ever appears to have about a dozen arrows, or so, in his quiver, yet they have huge battles where he is letting go arrow after arrow and never runs out.

Legolas can hold over fifty arrows in his quiver. As already mentioned he re-uses arrows from the bodies of his fallen enemies as well as makes them himself from the many endless trees he encounters on his journey in places like Amon Hen and Dunharrow. He also has two Elven short-swords, "white knives", that Bloom can be seen using very briefly at Helm's Deep in The Two Towers.

[caligulathegod]

The Common Speech is represented by English in the text. Any anachronistic usages of the language can be chalked up to that.


Oh, and Elves are supposed to have a sort of "grace" which kind of helps keep them from getting dirty. Not that they are magically able to stay clean, but that they aren't as clumbsy and can avoid getting dirty. They can even walk on snow and barely leave footprints.

[chrisv]

If the hobbits are sitting on Treebeard's shoulders, where are they getting rocks from in the first place?

[Fok]

What I don't get in movies is that one guy with a pistal can take out a whole army with machine guns.
Or when a good guy takes down a bad guy, he never takes their gun.

[ivelostr2]

What I don't get in movies is that one guy with a pistal can take out a whole army with machine guns.
Or when a good guy takes down a bad guy, he never takes their gun.

and after they "kill" the bad guy, they always throw their gun on the ground...

[ivelostr2]

If the hobbits are sitting on Treebeard's shoulders, where are they getting rocks from in the first place?

good point...

[tanman]

If the hobbits are sitting on Treebeard's shoulders, where are they getting rocks from in the first place?

Actually, if I'm not mistaken don't they show treebeard throwing them some rocks. I could be totally wrong.

[kcbrett5]

Its really not that hard for me to do, I dont care how ridiculous a movie is. However..

there are a few movies which... man, I just had a hard as hell time doing it. I swear the movie makers just threw this shit in to piss me off. Here they are:

1. Jedi.. when the ewoks are knocking out stormtroopers throwing rocks.
2. FOTR.. at the end when the two hobbits are knocking out orcs throwing rocks.

??????

Everything else I can excuse.. but a movie like FOTR with so much time and money used to create, why this?? Why couldn't those two hobbits have just stood there, watching? Why did they have to start throwing rocks, small ones, mind you, and killing huge orcs?

UH-OH. You broke the first rule of the internet. You can't criticize Lord of the Rings without getting crucified by its loyal supporters.

[ivelostr2]

UH-OH. You broke the first rule of the internet. You can't criticize Lord of the Rings without getting crucified by its loyal supporters.
Are you allowed to talk about LOTR and SW in the same thread. I always thought that was a no no

[Talkin2Phil]

Ever since David vs Goliath, a well placed rock is very successful in defeating a seemingly superior opponent.

http://www.wels.net/wmc/Downloads/clipart2/Sabc018.gif

Now a bigger “suspending disbelief “ is when our hero is beaten to a bloody pulp by the villain. One of those 10 minute beating scenes with lead pipes, anvils, throwing over catwalks, repeated kicking in the ribs, etc. that would result in massive internal bleeding and broken bones. Then our hero somehow gets the strength of twenty men and instantly remembers some Green Beret hand to hand combat technique. The villain is somehow is surprised by this and loses all strength and fighting ability. This is extra special when our hero is played by an older and not so muscular actor.

[dtcarson]

I always liked Ivan Reitman's rule when he was discussing Ghostbusters. He said that when dealing with suspension of disbelief, he expects the audience to accept one impossible element of the plot. In the case of Ghostbusters, it's the notion that ghosts exist and you can catch them. If you can run with that, the rest of the movie works.

I've seen Isaac Asimov, I believe, describe this a definition of science fiction, and the difference between science fiction and fantasy. In SF, there's one 'if' or unrealistic idea, that is assumed to be true, and everything else should, or could, follow logically. In fantasy, you can have lots of 'if' statements.

Regarding the 'man getting beat down, then winning'--Things like this have happened in RL, where people in greatly stressful situations summon unreal amounts of strength to lift a car off someone, or whatever. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, depending on how it's portrayed.

Most of my 'Yeah, right' moments [other than the 'he's out of arrows/bullets! syndrome] come in scenes with computers. I know there are some good hackers out there, but Hollywood makes it look entirely too easy to hop in to anyone else's computer, break in, find the EXACT file you need, etc.
Another one is how people on horses, in cars, in planes, etc, when firing weapons out of the window or while riding, have such great aim. I've heard that firing at a moving target, when you are moving, is vastly more difficult than just aiming.

Some of the things [arrow/bullet] are more implied than shown. Obviously Legolas needs more arrows, so maybe he makes more or collects more after a battle when he's off screen or something. That makes sense, so I can deal with that.

I think I do recall Treebeard tossing them some rocks.

[Josh H]

I generally have little problem suspending disbelief. Especially in movies like LOTR, SW that aren't set in the real world. It's tougher for something like a police movie, that has a crazy action scene thrown in or something.

[jaeufraser]

Most of my 'Yeah, right' moments [other than the 'he's out of arrows/bullets! syndrome] come in scenes with computers. I know there are some good hackers out there, but Hollywood makes it look entirely too easy to hop in to anyone else's computer, break in, find the EXACT file you need, etc.




Oh, Hollywood computers are quite funny. I'm usually willing to go with what is on the computer (despite the issue of Hollywood computers having infinitely more elaborate screens than any normal person has) but I always found it amusing that in pracitcally no movies do any characters ever seem to use a mouse. Just sit down, and type furiously, and that usually seems to work for any sort of function. Not a big gripe, but kind of funny when you think about it.

[Kal-El]

One scene where I really laughed because it was so ludicrous was in "Out of Time" with Denzel.

He scans this cellphone bill then edits it in some sort of Photo-editing program wherein each line he deletes is deleted evenly with the rest of the document moving up to take up the space.

Really had to shout at the screen at that one.

[talemyn]

Oh, Hollywood computers are quite funny. I'm usually willing to go with what is on the computer (despite the issue of Hollywood computers having infinitely more elaborate screens than any normal person has) but I always found it amusing that in pracitcally no movies do any characters ever seem to use a mouse. Just sit down, and type furiously, and that usually seems to work for any sort of function. Not a big gripe, but kind of funny when you think about it.I think that Hackers plays the most dangerous game in this area. I think the only group of people who can really be fans of this movie are ones who understand technology enough to "get" the movies technological environment, but not be so into technology that they will get offended by the absolutely absurd portrayals of technology that they whipped up for that film.

That being said, I fall in that very small group . . . Hackers is one of my guilty pleasures. :D

[masetodd]

Hell, while we're on the computer subject, what about Jurassic Park:

"It's a Unix System! I know this!" Then the girl proceeds to zoom around some 3-D animation, clicking on the power to the whole island or something.

And my personal #1 suspension of disbelief:

These amaizing "Enhancement" programs that can take a 600x480 jpeg file and somehow blow up a microscopic corner of the photo to reveal the crucial piece of evidence needed to wrap up the (lame) plot.

[eXcentris]

Why does a powerful magician like Gandalf bother fighting with a sword when he can probably destroy his foes by farting huge bolts of lightning in their general direction?

Speaking of bodily functions none of the characters ever seem to go and relieve themselves. That's a heck of a long trip to take without ever taking a leak. Did all Middle-Earth characters have exceptionally large bladders or something? :)

[Josh H]

You rarely see anyone use the bathorom in moves. :D

As for Gandalf, I don't think the wizards were very powerful. There main power was knowlege, and they were sent by the Valar to help men and elves defeat Sauron if he returned, not to defeat them by themselves. At least that's my taking from reading LOTR and The Silmarillion.

[talemyn]

As for Gandalf, I don't think the wizards were very powerful. There main power was knowlege, and they were sent by the Valar to help men and elves defeat Sauron if he returned, not to defeat them by themselves. At least that's my taking from reading LOTR and The Silmarillion.Yeah . . . I think it's something pretty close to that. I've heard this question answered before and I can't remember the details, but there was definitely a solid reason behind it.

[wmansir]

I was listening to a radio program the other day and the host started talking about Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle. He said he enjoyed it until one scene near the end where it suddenly goes from pitch black night to full daylight in a few moments. He said it took him out of the movie.

Then someone says "OK, you didn't buy that, but you had no problem when they got a cheeta stoned and then rode it thru the woods like a pony?"