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View Full Version : Reports of early voting fraud in Philadelphia


marty888
11-02-04, 09:41 AM
Drudge report has the following:

<i>Before voting even began in Philladelphia -- poll watchers found nearly 2000 votes already planted on machines scattered throughout downtown... One incident occurred at 2601 N. 11th St., Philadelphia, Pa: Ward 37, division 8... pollwatchers uncovered 4 machines with planted votes; one with over 200 and one with nearly 500... A second location, 1901 W. Girard Ave., Berean Institute, Philadelphia, Pa, had 300+ votes already on 2 machines at start of day... INCIDENT: 292 votes on machine at start of day; WARD/DIVISION: 7/7: ADDRESS: 122 W. Erie Ave., Roberto Clemente School, Philadelphia, Pa.; INCIDENT: 456 votes on machine at start of day; WARD/DIVISION: 12/3; ADDRESS: 5657 Chew Ave., storefront, Philadelphia, Pa... Developing...</i>

Not good ....

Dah-Dee
11-02-04, 09:44 AM
That's just outrageous! I mean, come on, nearly 500 votes? Sheesh. I only voted twice, now that's a reasonable number. Please cheat in moderation, folks!

SunMonkey
11-02-04, 09:48 AM
We need a One and Only Election Fraud thread with all this crap going on across the country.

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 09:51 AM
Nice.

The <i>only</i> way to get around ballot fraud is to avoid ballots by using computers. Unfortunately, the predominant solution is <i>far</i> more easily manipulated. We need a computerized voting system that is completely transparent, completely verifiable, and as tamper-proof as possible.

- David Stein

kvrdave
11-02-04, 09:51 AM
I wonder who the votes were for.

chanster
11-02-04, 09:51 AM
He says it is up to 2,000 now. All located in poor areas of Philly - wonder who the votes are for? I have a good idea.

darkflounder
11-02-04, 09:53 AM
WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED!!!

RevLiver
11-02-04, 09:54 AM
This is why both parties should have a single challenger at each polling location. Last thing they should do before the polls open is verify that the counters on each machine are set to zero.

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by chanster
He says it is up to 2,000 now. All located in poor areas of Philly - wonder who the votes are for? I have a good idea.
Consider that when you jump to conclusions and make factual predictions based on personal bias, it has a chance of coming back and biting you in the ass. In this case, I'd say the chance is 50/50.


- David Stein

RevLiver
11-02-04, 10:14 AM
I'd have to agree with David here. Philadelphia is already heavily Democratic, why would anyone need to increase the Dem's vote total? You run the risk of having more votes for Kerry than registered voters in the precinct. It's definitely 50/50 that it could be votes for either candidate.

Or what about that they never reset the machines from their last use?

bfrank
11-02-04, 10:23 AM
These machines suck big time.

NPR showed that you could just opening a file from the programs folder in Notepad and change the total with no record -eek-

bfrank
11-02-04, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by RevLiver
I'd have to agree with David here. Philadelphia is already heavily Democratic, why would anyone need to increase the Dem's vote total? You run the risk of having more votes for Kerry than registered voters in the precinct. It's definitely 50/50 that it could be votes for either candidate.

Or what about that they never reset the machines from their last use?

why to you assume that they were Dem votes?

Groucho
11-02-04, 10:25 AM
You guys are forgetting that Philadelphia is on Eastern Time. So, if it's 6am in CA, it's already 9am in Philly. Think about it!

Also, daylight savings time began on Sunday.

Mad Dawg
11-02-04, 10:26 AM
Drudge blurb:

Pennsylvania GOP is going to file suit in the Court of Common Pleas in an effort to have the machines in question impounded and have them replaced 'with machines that did not already have votes on them'... Developing...

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by RevLiver
Philadelphia is already heavily Democratic, why would anyone need to increase the Dem's vote total?
Ah, but the circumstances don't matter, either to me or to <b>chanster</b>.

<b>chanster</b> has taken the position in this forum that Democrats, as a class, are conspiring to commit voter fraud, while Republicans, as a class, are not. This is rather convenient, of course: any particular incident can be spun as yet more evidence of the Dem conspiracy, or merely a rogue company that the Republicans in no way condone.

I take the position that Democrats and Republicans are each comprised of people - and of such a wide and deep cross-section that they're statistically identical in most aspects. You can draw conclusions about political views - Democrats value civil liberty; Republicans value central authority - but in non-political aspects like ethics and personal happiness, the groups are equally heterogeneous.

- David Stein

Groucho
11-02-04, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by sfsdfd
<b>chanster</b> has taken the position in this forum that Democrats, as a class, are conspiring to commit voter fraudWell, we are David. Didn't you get the email I sent you?

Venusian
11-02-04, 10:33 AM
are we sure these weren't used in early voting?

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by bfrank
NPR showed that you could just opening a file from the programs folder in Notepad and change the total with no record -eek-
Holy fuck. Are you kidding? That's an abomination. No wonder the U.N. wants to monitor our election processes - it's because <i>we really need it.</i>

This is the worst I've heard about the Diebold systems. The previous record was that some systems had included 802.11 cards that were <i>completely unsecured.</i> Someone proficient in hacking their neighbor's 802.11 network could just as easily rig the election. :eek: But that's peanuts in comparison to this.

- David Stein

tcoursen
11-02-04, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by RevLiver
I'd have to agree with David here. Philadelphia is already heavily Democratic, why would anyone need to increase the Dem's vote total? You run the risk of having more votes for Kerry than registered voters in the precinct. It's definitely 50/50 that it could be votes for either candidate.

Or what about that they never reset the machines from their last use?

You would want to plant more votes there to cancel out the votes that come from the republican parts of the state. Spread the votes around to many machines. 100 here, 200 there, and you might be able to get away with it. With the % of people that don't show up you can probably easily get away with adding 100 or 200 votes to one machine. In these districts that are heavily democratic it wouldn't look that odd to have a high democrat count.

RevLiver
11-02-04, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by bfrank
why to you assume that they were Dem votes?

I'm not. I'm saying to those who assume they are Dem votes to not make that assumption.

al_bundy
11-02-04, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by sfsdfd
Holy fuck. Are you kidding? That's an abomination. No wonder the U.N. wants to monitor our election processes - it's because <i>we really need it.</i>

This is the worst I've heard about the Diebold systems. The previous record was that some systems had included 802.11 cards that were <i>completely unsecured.</i> Someone proficient in hacking their neighbor's 802.11 network could just as easily rig the election. :eek: But that's peanuts in comparison to this.

- David Stein

you haven't been reading http://slashdot.org have you? over the last year they have linked to more stories about security problems with Diebold machines than you can list here.

bfrank
11-02-04, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by sfsdfd
Holy fuck. Are you kidding? That's an abomination. No wonder the U.N. wants to monitor our election processes - it's because <i>we really need it.</i>

This is the worst I've heard about the Diebold systems. The previous record was that some systems had included 802.11 cards that were <i>completely unsecured.</i> Someone proficient in hacking their neighbor's 802.11 network could just as easily rig the election. :eek: But that's peanuts in comparison to this.

- David Stein
we had discussed it hear in some other threads. They actual had a guy do it on the radio! He was from some gruop that had tested all the machines as was wroking to get them replaced before the election.

Mad Dawg
11-02-04, 10:50 AM
Drudge pulled the blurb about a Penn GOP demand of a machine impound.

chanster
11-02-04, 10:52 AM
chanster has taken the position in this forum that Democrats, as a class, are conspiring to commit voter fraud, while Republicans, as a class, are not. This is rather convenient, of course: any particular incident can be spun as yet more evidence of the Dem conspiracy, or merely a rogue company that the Republicans in no way condone.

This is great. A mod in this forum spreading complete lies. Please point to one instance where I have said that Democrats, as a class, are consipiring to commit voter fraud. Can somebody ban a mod for completly bullshitting about my views. Ridicoulous.

Y2K Falcon
11-02-04, 10:55 AM
I heard they could be compromised with a Bic pen. -eek-

Mad Dawg
11-02-04, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Y2K Falcon
I heard they could be compromised with a Bic pen. -eek-

http://www.home.no/malmin/mcgyver2.jpg

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by al_bundy
you haven't been reading http://slashdot.org have you?
Oh, only every 15 minutes or so. ;)

Yeah, I've seen a flood of Diebold stories. Most, to be honest, have been trivial: an occasional machine crash, an occasional slip of code review, a buffer overrun that needs very precise conditions and an omniscient attacker to exploit.

There have been a few very troubling technical screw-ups, like the unsecured 802.11 thing and addition problems. (voting machines that don't add properly? :eek: ) And there have been several social-engineering screw-ups, like dictionary-attackable passwords, and troubling internal problems, like intentional cover-ups of serious machine errors.

Most seriously, it's plainly outrageous that the president of the company donates hugely to one candidate, and promises to deliver the election to him. That's truly Orwellian.

But I haven't yet seen an error of such bombastic incompetence as "the voting tallies can be edited in Notepad without a record of the change."

- David Stein

RoyalTea
11-02-04, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by RevLiver
Philadelphia is already heavily Democratic, why would anyone need to increase the Dem's vote total? Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania, which is a swing state with a lot of electoral votes up for grabs.

bfrank
11-02-04, 11:01 AM
I guess it is more complex then I said. Here are the details (its done in Access)

http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html

bfrank
11-02-04, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by chanster
This is great. A mod in this forum spreading complete lies. Please point to one instance where I have said that Democrats, as a class, are consipiring to commit voter fraud. Can somebody ban a mod for completly bullshitting about my views. Ridicoulous.

The problem is the view people have of any posters is formed by their posting style.

Like it or not this is the perception.

If you have a problem with any mod you can report the thread and the other mods and Admins will discuss it. You can also copy talk@dvdtalk.com so Geoff can see it.

Dah-Dee
11-02-04, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by chanster
Ridicoulous.

-ohbfrank-



http://www.kanchi.org/random/radiculos.gif

CRM114
11-02-04, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by bfrank
I guess it is more complex then I said. Here are the details (its done in Access)

http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html

Do these voter machines run on Windows? If so, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Its one thing to risk your personal property to a horrible, bug-ridden, compromise-waiting-to-happen operating system but PLEASE don't use it to count votes in a National election.

bfrank
11-02-04, 11:29 AM
Yeap - sad but true!!!

Very easy to steel this one if someone wants to. I guess the main protection is the other poll workers but still amazing! :(

Canis Firebrand
11-02-04, 11:48 AM
Has there been any more news on it?

On the radio today, on my way to vote, they were discussing the PA issue.

The said there are two odemeter type counters on the system. One is for the votes cast that day, which I assume is zeroed out each election, and the other is for votes cast over the lifetime of the machine.

It should be interesting to see what happens as a result.
PA has already been called a swing state, I believe.

gettinbranded
11-02-04, 12:06 PM
This has been thoroughly debunked.

The thread can now be locked.

"This statement just released by Marge Tartaglione, Philadelphia City Commissioner, the official responsible for overseeing elections in the city.

>>'Recent press reports have stated that machines in at least one precinct were not properly calibrated to ensure an accurate accounting of the number of votes cast.'

'These allegations are completely unsubstantiated and have no factual basis whatsoever.'<<

In other words, it's a typical Drudge story. He's taken it down too.

Red Dog
11-02-04, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by gettinbranded


In other words, it's a typical Drudge story. He's taken it down too.


It is still on there.

Bushdog
11-02-04, 12:11 PM
No, no, no, let's get back to implying this is Democrat dirty tricks.

Jesus, are you guys trying to swing me against Bush so that your smugness can be held in check for 4 years?

Pharoh
11-02-04, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Bushdog
No, no, no, let's get back to implying this is Democrat dirty tricks.

Jesus, are you guys trying to swing me against Bush so that your smugness can be held in check for 4 years?


:wave:

Timmio
11-02-04, 12:15 PM
I just saw it on the national news channels that the numbers that the poll watchers saw were the lifetime counts for the machines.

The voting machines have two counters, much like a cell phone, a lifetime count and a daily count. The daily count was zero on all the machines in question.

So end of story....

Moral of the story...Don't believe what you read on Drudge Report.

Bushdog
11-02-04, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Pharoh
:wave: :)

DarkestPhoenix
11-02-04, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by chanster
This is great. A mod in this forum spreading complete lies. Please point to one instance where I have said that Democrats, as a class, are consipiring to commit voter fraud. Can somebody ban a mod for completly bullshitting about my views. Ridicoulous.

Who's going to police the police?

I'd be pissed.

Interesting, considering I DO believe that if we have investigations we'll see that BOTH parties are cheating, but that the Democrats will be much better at it.

Son-volt
11-02-04, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by DarkestPhoenix
Who's going to police the police?

I'd be pissed.

Interesting, considering I DO believe that if we have investigations we'll see that BOTH parties are cheating, but that the Democrats will be much better at it.

Depends on your definition of cheating. Multiple voting, stacking the box, etc seem to be things the democrats are most associated with, and may be things they are "better" at.

Republicans seem to be doing a great job of the exact opposite, which is negating votes, getting rid of registrations, intimidating voters, or declaring them ineligible.

In short, both sides are putting a lot of effort into cheating.

OldDude
11-02-04, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Son-volt
Republicans seem to be doing a great job of the exact opposite, which is negating votes, getting rid of registrations, intimidating voters, or declaring them ineligible.


If the voter actually is legally ineligible, declaring him so wouldn't be considered cheating. Frivolous objections would be.

Son-volt
11-02-04, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by OldDude
If the voter actually is legally ineligible, declaring him so wouldn't be considered cheating. Frivolous objections would be.

True. And I'm not questioning the fact that there are good-intentioned people of both parties working to make sure nobody votes when they shouldn't be able to. But just like box stuffing/corpse voting has become the signature cheat of the left, disenfranchisement* has become the signature cheat of the right.

* I'm using that word as a catch-all for intimidation, blacklisting, false mailings telling people their registration is void, etc.

weargle
11-02-04, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Timmio
Don't believe what you read on Drudge Report.*

*Unless it involves Clinton's penis.

Venusian
11-02-04, 01:58 PM
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm1065_20041102.htm

Kelly Chesney, spokeswoman for the Michigan secretary of state, said several local election clerks complained about MoveOn.Org, saying its representatives wanted tables at polling places. The organization, she said, also wanted voters redirected in some cases so they passed in front of MoveOn.Org representatives.

Complaints were made by election officials in Lansing, Troy, Ferndale, Grand Rapids and Milford, Chesney said. She noted that poll watchers are not allowed to campaign within 100 feet of the polls or confront voters.

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by chanster
This is great. A mod in this forum spreading complete lies.
For the second time in this thread, I'll caution you against speaking out before you've seen the evidence, because...

Originally posted by chanster
Please point to one instance where I have said that Democrats, as a class, are consipiring to commit voter fraud. Can somebody ban a mod for completly bullshitting about my views. Ridicoulous.
As you wish. I'm surprised you forgot about this thread -
<a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390388">Left leaning Organization Responsible for Thounsands of Fake Voter Registrations! </a>
Originally posted by chanster
(link to news story)

Click on the link to watch the video of people laughing about it!

Dirty Trick Democrats At It Again!

Yes, this organization does not support Bush..I wonder what their motivations were??? Of course they are connected to moveon.org!
- because it was <i>your thread.</i>

Now that we've gotten that out of the way:

First: I will remind you that "personal attacks" involve personal comments - stuff outside of the forum that's not related to the issue. Commenting on another's professed view here in the forum is not a "personal attack," no matter how much you don't like it.

Second: When I participate in these threads, I do so as a DVD Talk member, not as a moderator. Moderating is about maintenance tasks like locking threads. My status has nothing to do with my substantive posts here, and I would not bring it up in the context of a normal discussion.

I will now ask you not to refer to it again.

Third: I am due and would appreciate an apology for calling me a liar.

- David Stein

Cardiff Giant11
11-02-04, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Dah-Dee
That's just outrageous! I mean, come on, nearly 500 votes? Sheesh. I only voted twice, now that's a reasonable number. Please cheat in moderation, folks!
am i the only one reminded of the days of the Buy.com mispricings when people would order like 50 of the mispriced item and ruin it for everyone ;)

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by DarkestPhoenix
Who's going to police the police?

I'd be pissed.
Your comments are not helpful. In the future, kindly stay out of it. If you have a problem with something here, then use the RTPTAM link.

- David Stein

Venusian
11-02-04, 02:04 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/ap/20041102/ap_on_el_pr/eln_voting_problems

Election officials in Iowa, Michigan and Minnesota fielded complaints of disruptions by the liberal interest group MoveOn.org, while in Ohio, a woman sued on behalf of people who did not receive absentee ballots on time, asking that they be allowed to cast provisional ballots.

bboisvert
11-02-04, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Cardiff Giant
am i the only one reminded of the days of the Buy.com mispricings when people would order like 50 of the mispriced item and ruin it for everyone ;)

Yeah, Kerry's on FatWallet now. It's all over.

logrus9
11-02-04, 02:45 PM
Just saw on TV, 30 GOP Get Out the Vote vehicles in Milwaukee had their tires slashed and the headquarters was vandalized.
:down: this is getting out of hand.

Goldblum
11-02-04, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Yeah, Kerry's on FatWallet now. It's all over.

:lol:

And about that thing about tires slashed...ridiculous, abhorrent behavior.

Bushdog
11-02-04, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Cardiff Giant
am i the only one reminded of the days of the Buy.com mispricings when people would order like 50 of the mispriced item and ruin it for everyone ;) I'm gonna guess that was the joke he was going for.

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 03:17 PM
Response from chanster, sent to me via personal email:
I'm not apologizing for anything. I know what I wrote, I didn't say that Democrats as a whole are attempting to disenfrachise anyone in that thread, I said the dirty trick Democrats are at it again. I think you still owe me an apology for saying what you said about my views when you don't know anything about my views
As they say: "And now you have the rest of the story."

- David Stein

Dah-Dee
11-02-04, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Bushdog
I'm gonna guess that was the joke he was going for.

http://members.aol.com/nightdog35/images/spot_party.gif



http://members.aol.com/nightdog35/images/smiley_thumb.gif

DVD Polizei
11-02-04, 03:26 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if every state has their own sensational story about voting fraud by the end of tonight. What I have to ask is, wasn't this going on before 2000 only it wasn't considered significant until the 2000 election?

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I wouldn't be surprised if every state has their own sensational story about voting fraud by the end of tonight. What I have to ask is, wasn't this going on before 2000 only it wasn't considered significant until the 2000 election?
Correct. This is like the shark attack/killer bee story of the election season. They find an incident that tweaks the public's emotions, and they broadcast <i>every instance of it</i> to turn it into an epidemic.

That's what the media does (rather than their actual job, which is harder.)

- David Stein

B.A.
11-02-04, 03:31 PM
I can't wait to watch the local news tonight - something has to go wrong somewhere in St. Louis.

OldDude
11-02-04, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Venusian
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/ap/20041102/ap_on_el_pr/eln_voting_problems

Election officials in Iowa, Michigan and Minnesota fielded complaints of disruptions by the liberal interest group MoveOn.org, while in Ohio, a woman sued on behalf of people who did not receive absentee ballots on time, asking that they be allowed to cast provisional ballots.

We had a "Democratic challenger" at our precinct kind of debating/arguing with our election officials about what she could/couldn't do. I didn't hear the outcome; they were still talking when I finished. The odd thing is our township is so Republican, I'd be surprised if Kerry gets 200 votes out of ~20,000. Odds are very high she was the only Democrat in the room, out of ~25 people.

Bushdog
11-02-04, 04:21 PM
On the flipside, the Republicans were thoroughly deployed in my precinct and as well as I can tell it leans Republican.

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Bushdog
On the flipside, the Republicans were thoroughly deployed in my precinct and as well as I can tell it leans Republican.
Isn't that kind of pointless?

No party should be allowed to hold the White House if it can't even manage a <strike>balloon drop</strike>poll-monitoring program.

- David Stein

Red Dog
11-02-04, 05:08 PM
Just talked to a friend who is a Democratic volunteer in the Allentown area. He says the lawyers are out in full force. I love it. :lol:

sfsdfd
11-02-04, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Just talked to a friend who is a Democratic volunteer in the Allentown area. He says the lawyers are out in full force. I love it. :lol:
Well, thanks to the economy, they have nothing better to do, right? :D Idle hands, y'know...

- David Stein