Who is the NL MVP this year?

[Quake1028]

All of these guys come up in MVP talks. Who would you vote for if the season ended today?

[twikoff]

beltre has 41 homeruns

[twikoff]

having 3 players listed from the same team.. pretty much eliminates all 3
you cant be MVP when your surrounded by that much talent

Bonds has the least to work with.. and is the most dominating of the group.. (hell, most dominating in all of baseball)

but Beltre's team is doing better than the giants.. so that helps him

[Mad Dawg]

Bonds. :(

Hopefully Beltre can continue to blaze and make me change my mind.

[B.A.]

Rolen - his offense and his defense has led the Cardinals all year long.

[Steveweiser]

Bonds. The Giants wouldn't be within sniffing distance of a playoff spot without him.

[dstrauss]

I'm sorry, but this is just another silly argument. Bonds has three hundred and fifty effing OPS points on everyone else in baseball. Yes, Pujols and Rolen and Edmonds have had nice seasons. (Actually, Todd Helton has had a better season than any of them, if barely.)

But Bonds is quite simply playing a different game. He's the MVP.

[fumanstan]

It *should* be Bonds. But i'm not a fan of his, and while it shouldn't matter that he's already won it multiple times, it does affect my perception. So i vote Beltre, since i don't see how 3 guys from the same team can be in the running.

[twikoff]

lets see....

6 votes for bonds

1 for rolen..... from a cards fan

1 for beltre... from a LA fan, that agrees bonds deserves it most

[IMRICKJAMES]

It should be Beltre, but they are going to give it to Bonds because he is Bonds. I'm not saying that Barry is bad, but I'm a little sick of Bonds getting the MVP everytime there isn't a clear cut hands down MVP choice. Look at the other major sports, when there isn't a clear choice they don't just go "Well, Shaq is the most dominant player lets make him the MVP."

[El Scorcho]

The Cards get dinged because they all have each other.

Beltre gets dinged because he's shown no history of such performance and isn't having a big enough of a breakout year to get it.

And then there's Bonds who is light years ahead of everyone in about every stat.

Beltre will need to hit about .500 with 10 HR and 35-40 RBI from here on out to bring his stats up to where they need to be.

[twikoff]

actually.. looking at stats.. there is a pretty clear cut hands down mvp choice

the arguement against bonds is either that people dont like him.. or they are tired of him always winning

[Jericho]

The real answer is Bonds, but I just don't think he'll actually win this year (the voters will look for someone else). Voters love RBIs, so I'd give the edge to Rolen despite the teammates.

[The Cow]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
It should be Beltre, but they are going to give it to Bonds because he is Bonds. I'm not saying that Barry is bad, but I'm a little sick of Bonds getting the MVP everytime there isn't a clear cut hands down MVP choice. Look at the other major sports, when there isn't a clear choice they don't just go "Well, Shaq is the most dominant player lets make him the MVP."
:confused:
Doesn't Shaq only have 1 MVP award?

[twikoff]

Originally posted by The Cow
:confused:
Doesn't Shaq only have 1 MVP award?

i think you misread his statement

he said they "dont"

buts its not even a close comparison regardless

[The Cow]

Originally posted by twikoff
i think you misread his statement

he said they "dont"

buts its not even a close comparison regardless
oops, misread that.

Oh yeah, I voted Bonds.
(and as tough as it is, I'm a Reds fan)

[Mad Dawg]

Trust me when I say that I'm not going to go out of my way to argue for Bonds, but this isn't really even close at this point. The only reason that he wouldn't get it would be based upon the Giants not making into the post-season. That would be a shame because the Giants would have made the Diamondbacks look like the '27 Yankees without him in the line-up.

[Da Thrilla]

Beltre!

[Flashback]

Originally posted by twikoff
actually.. looking at stats.. there is a pretty clear cut hands down mvp choice

the arguement against bonds is either that people dont like him.. or they are tired of him always winning

I call BS...if it was not for Schmidt then SF has no right to even be close to the wild card.....call Bonds MVP all you want but SF would not be there without Jason. They should be mailing it in. Oh wait...maybe you call MVP of the league...my bad...sorry I will try to come up with more than 2 at this time.....

Pujols is one to start with and anyone that says wrong does not know baseball in my opinion. And flame away I could care less....

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by Flashback
I call BS...if it was not for Schmidt then SF has no right to even be close to the wild card.....call Bonds MVP all you want but SF would not be there without Jason. They should be mailing it in. Oh wait...maybe you call MVP of the league...my bad...sorry I will try to come up with more than 2 at this time.....

Pujols is one to start with and anyone that says wrong does not know baseball in my opinion. And flame away I could care less....

Could you please write this again in English so I have a clue what the hell you are trying to say?

[gmal2003]

Bonds

If he got the same quality at bats as even the second best power hitter (Pujols, Thome, Ramirez etc..) he'd have:

59 HRs
128 RBIs
about the same batting average

I dont like him but hes unreal.

[El Scorcho]

drunk posting rules

[Quake1028]

Give Bonds 477 AB's like Pujols has:

57 HR
129 RBI
164 R
36 2B

Still think there is an argument?

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by twikoff
the arguement against bonds is either that people dont like him.. or they are tired of him always winning

IMO this is the only thing that will keep him from winning. He was already robbed of one MVP, let's not make it two.

[twikoff]

Originally posted by Flashback
I call BS

Pujols is one to start with and anyone that says wrong does not know baseball in my opinion. And flame away I could care less....

your right
that is bullshit :up:

[Mad Dawg]

Originally posted by Flashback
I call BS...if it was not for Schmidt then SF has no right to even be close to the wild card.....call Bonds MVP all you want but SF would not be there without Jason. They should be mailing it in. Oh wait...maybe you call MVP of the league...my bad...sorry I will try to come up with more than 2 at this time.....

Pujols is one to start with and anyone that says wrong does not know baseball in my opinion. And flame away I could care less....

Three hitters with over a 1.000 OPS, and they've scored 5 more runs all season than SF. They've given up 127 fewer runs. To disqualify Bonds because of Schmidt means disqualifying the 3 Cards based on the fact that their staff has pitched completely out of their minds. Those pitchers have had a far greater impact than Schmidt.

[chrisih8u]

Finally, a poll where I can vote for Twikoff and against Bonds. :up:

[Quake1028]

twikoff has just as many votes as Pujols and Rolen and one more than Edmonds. Now that is bullshit -ohbfrank-.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Mad Dawg
Three hitters with over a 1.000 OPS, and they've scored 5 more runs all season than SF. They've given up 127 fewer runs. To disqualify Bonds because of Schmidt means disqualifying the 3 Cards based on the fact that their staff has pitched completely out of their minds. Those pitchers have had a far greater impact than Schmidt.


Look between the lines....

If you were an owner today you would take Bonds over Pujols?

[El Scorcho]

FYI, I lead my team to a 15-2 record and an F league championship. My OPS was around 2.250. :p

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by Flashback
Look between the lines....

If you were an owner today you would take Bonds over Pujols?

Well thats a stupid question, Bonds is like 48 and Pujols is about 17.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
FYI, I lead my team to a 15-2 record and an F league championship. My OPS was around 2.250. :p

Go build a chain-link-barbed-wire fence around the Rose Bed. :lol:

[Flashback]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
Well thats a stupid question, Bonds is like 48 and Pujols is about 17.


How is it stupid....this year....MVP....you would take Bonds over Albert (and I am not a Cards fan).


:lol:

[fumanstan]

Originally posted by Mad Dawg
Three hitters with over a 1.000 OPS, and they've scored 5 more runs all season than SF. They've given up 127 fewer runs. To disqualify Bonds because of Schmidt means disqualifying the 3 Cards based on the fact that their staff has pitched completely out of their minds. Those pitchers have had a far greater impact than Schmidt.

Good idea. Which leaves... Beltre :D MVP! ;)

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by Flashback
How is it stupid....this year....MVP....you would take Bonds over Albert (and I am not a Cards fan).


:lol:

Uh, taking Bonds over Pujols for MVP is not the same as taking Bonds over Pujols if you were starting a team.

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
Well thats a stupid question, Bonds is like 48 and Pujols is about 17.


Correct. Even though I am convinced Pujols is a lot older than he says ;).

[El Scorcho]

god, give flashback 2 coronas and he just loses all sense of control on the forum. :lol:

[El Scorcho]

Not to mention, if I were an owner I'd be thinking $$ too and Bonds brings more $$$ to my wallet than Pujols would :)

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Quake1028
Uh, taking Bonds over Pujols for MVP is not the same as taking Bonds over Pujols if you were starting a team.

Why....MVP is most valuable player...is Bonds the MVP for SF?

[Mad Dawg]

This year? I would take Bonds' ability to completely change the complexion of a game. That is simple. If I were an owner, I would also not run out a who's-who of assholes to protect him in the line-up. Bonds hits while protected by the likes of Feliz, Tucker, Pierzinski, and Grissom. How about Pujols?

For one season, this season, it's Barry. But if I were an owner, he wouldn't play for me. I'd own the Sox and Boston's "too racist."

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Quake1028
Correct. Even though I am convinced Pujols is a lot older than he says ;).

I agree with that ... ;)

Sorry...I don't think Bonds is all that...there are other players I think that are better (this year).....Now career wise is another story.

And El S..... I'll never turn down a few beers ... but get back to work on that prison campus in Portland.

[chrisih8u]

Originally posted by Mad Dawg
But if I were an owner, he wouldn't play for me. I'd own the Sox and Boston's "too racist."


:lol:

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by Flashback
I agree with that ... ;)

Sorry...I don't think Bonds is all that...there are other players I think that are better (this year).....Now career wise is another story.

And El S..... I'll never turn down a few beers ... but get back to work on that prison campus in Portland.

Who is better and why? Make a case for someone else. Bonds destroys everyone in any relevant stats when you take his ABs into account. Oh, btw, he has an over SEVEN to ONE walk to K ratio. Think about that.

[LurkerDan]

Originally posted by Flashback
Look between the lines....

If you were an owner today you would take Bonds over Pujols? For this year only? Do you honestly think this is a debate? Is there any owner or GM who would take any other position player over Bonds for this year only?

And if you think that the answer to that last question is "yes", ES is right, you need to put the Coronas down. :lol:

Bonds is on pace for the best OPS season ever, with an OBP that is also the best ever, and win a batting title. Only one player on his team with at least 200 AB's has even a .900 OPS, and only 2 players total with that many AB's have over a .850 OPS. And the combined plate appearances for those 2 players is only about 550. So it's not like he has any support in his lineup. That team would suck so unbelievably bad without him. No player in the majors impacts a game more than him.

Pujols is a GREAT player, a phenomenal player. This is not a knock on him. But Bonds is playing a different game...

ETA: Barry hits .429 when there are runners in scoring position and two outs.

[Mad Dawg]

Bleech...I've spent the last 30 minutes arguing in favor of Barry. If anyone needs me, I'll be sitting in my running car in the garage.

[Flashback]

Sorry all... you are right....Pujols is not as good.. Bonds absolutely (not counting all of the idiots that walk him) is 10, no 12x' better than Pujoles. No MVP for him.

And please I was talking as an owner this year...you take Bonds over Pulols? LOL....last year Albert was better.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by LurkerDan
Barry hits .429 when there are runners in scoring position and two outs.

.245 in post season when it counted

[The Cow]

Originally posted by Flashback
.245 in post season when it counted
Did I miss the post season and WS already? Damn.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by The Cow
Did I miss the post season and WS already? Damn.
huh? SF won't even make the post-season this year.

But an O and D man will make it without a problem.

[Steveweiser]

Apparently Flashback was passed out during the 2002 World Series, when Bonds had one of the greatest postseason series of all time. How's Pujols hitting in the postseason? He's hitting .213. So what's your point? And the postseason doesn't matter if you don't even get there. Without Bonds, the Giants wouldn't come close. Without Pujols, the Cards probably would (at the very least, they'd do much better than the Giants).

[Flashback]

Originally posted by LurkerDan
For this year only? Do you honestly think this is a debate? Is there any owner or GM who would take any other position player over Bonds for this year only?


MVP this year? yes I believe there are people who would take someone else over Bonds. Matter of fact there are some teams doing just fine without him...go figure...

[fumanstan]

Originally posted by Mad Dawg
Bleech...I've spent the last 30 minutes arguing in favor of Barry. If anyone needs me, I'll be sitting in my running car in the garage.

Feel... so... dirty.

[IMRICKJAMES]

Bonds isn't the MVP, how valuable are you if 4 pitches takes you right out of the game? Bonds is a victim of his own success since he isnt going to finish with the HRs and RBIs of the other MVP candidates. In my mind you don't get the MVP because of your on base percentage. For MVP I would take Beltre, Pujols, and Rolen before Bonds.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Steveweiser
He's hitting .213. So what's your point? And the postseason doesn't matter if you don't even get there.

You took one rookie year? Okay throw out his worst and Bonds worst ... what do you get?

Like I said, career wise I am not going to argue with anyone...but I personally believe that someone else is better than Bonds this year....so shoot me ;)....no hard feelings believe me....I just would vote for someone else.

[B.A.]

And to add another point - Bonds is a liability in the outfield now.

You can't say that about any of the Cardinals.


:p

[Flashback]

Originally posted by B.A.
And to add another point - Bonds is a liability in the outfield now.

You can't say that about any of the Cardinals.


:p

You meam MVP is about defense too?

Well then there is a guy named Sosa I would like to nominate then :lol:

[AndyCapps]

Bonds will get it unless the Giants somehow blow the rest of the season and end up with a worse record than the Diamondbacks.

[Jericho]

I think it's official with the sophistry in this thread that...

<img src=http://www.tleone.com/stuff/atl-blows.jpg>

[Steveweiser]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
Bonds isn't the MVP, how valuable are you if 4 pitches takes you right out of the game? Bonds is a victim of his own success since he isnt going to finish with the HRs and RBIs of the other MVP candidates. In my mind you don't get the MVP because of your on base percentage. For MVP I would take Beltre, Pujols, and Rolen before Bonds.
Bill James did a study where he took Babe Ruth's 1920 season (considered by many the greatest season ever) and surrounded him with a lineup of league average hitters. In one simulated season, he had the pitchers pitch to Ruth when they should. In another, he had the pitcher walk him every time. The results? The lineup that had him walk every time scored many more runs. So what does this mean? Simple. When you automatically put someone on base every time, it puts more pressure on the pitcher and makes the hitters better. So Bonds arguably becomes more valuable when he's walked all the time, contrary to your belief.

Originally posted by Flashback
You took one rookie year? Okay throw out his worst and Bonds worst ... what do you get?

Like I said, career wise I am not going to argue with anyone...but I personally believe that someone else is better than Bonds this year....so shoot me ;)....no hard feelings believe me....I just would vote for someone else.
Actually it takes his rookie year and his second year. However you want to look at it, previous postseason numbers have no bearing on who should be the MVP this year. I have no hard feelings if you think Bonds shouldn't be MVP, it's your opinion and I could care less because you won't be deciding the vote. I just want one logical argument from you for why he shouldn't win.

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
Bonds isn't the MVP, how valuable are you if 4 pitches takes you right out of the game? Bonds is a victim of his own success since he isnt going to finish with the HRs and RBIs of the other MVP candidates. In my mind you don't get the MVP because of your on base percentage. For MVP I would take Beltre, Pujols, and Rolen before Bonds.

rotfl

BTW, he only has 6 HR's less than Beltre, in about 200 less AB's.

[Flashback]

Albert Pujols: .326 - 39 HR - 98 RBI - 107 R - 37 2B - 1.060 OPS


Good enough (and that's not counting defense or standings)? Like I said if I had a choice to take one of these two I would take Pujols...call me crazy....geez maybe Beltre too.

Not to take away from Bonds great season, as I have always said, I still think the MVP is not Bonds in my opinion.

[Steveweiser]

The standings thing has already been proven irrelevant, because Pujols has a vastly superior supporting class. If anything, it's a point for Bonds because the Giants shouldn't be where they are right now. The differential in defense isn't big enough to make up for the huge gap in offensive numbers. Bonds is hitting 40 points higher and has just 4 fewer home runs and 19 fewer RBI's in almost 200 fewer at-bats. Not to mention the OPS totals, which is the most important stat of them all.

[fumanstan]

Originally posted by Steveweiser
The standings thing has already been proven irrelevant, because Pujols has a vastly superior supporting class. If anything, it's a point for Bonds because the Giants shouldn't be where they are right now. The differential in defense isn't big enough to make up for the huge gap in offensive numbers. Bonds is hitting 40 points higher and has just 4 fewer home runs and 19 fewer RBI's in almost 200 fewer at-bats. Not to mention the OPS totals, which is the most important stat of them all.

Which is why it should be between Bonds and Beltre. I'm still confused as to why Rolen and Pujols seem to be talked about more then Adrian. And while i'm a Dodger fan, like i said before, as much as i hate Bonds and the Giants he *should* win it. No one comes close. But among the rest, i still don't understand how you one of the three Cardinals can be singularly more valuable then Beltre.

[Quake1028]

Barry Bonds: .367 - 35 HR - 79 RBI - 101 R - 181 BB - 1.425 OPS
Albert Pujols: .326 - 39 HR - 98 RBI - 107 R - 37 2B - 1.060 OPS

Batting Average: Bonds by 41 points.
HR: Pujols by 4, in 184 more AB's.
RBI: Pujols by 19 in 184 more AB's.
Runs: Pujols 5 more in 184 more AB's.
Walks: Bonds by 115
OPS: Bonds by 365 points

Again, I just don't see how you can say Pujols is having a better year. With 184 more AB's those margins should be MUCH higher.

A few other points:

Bonds plays in what is considered one of the best pitchers parks in baseball.

Bonds doesn't have nearly the protection Pujols has.

Bonds gets maybe 2-3 pitches per game in the strike zone, if he is lucky.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Steveweiser
The standings thing has already been proven irrelevant, because Pujols has a vastly superior supporting class. If anything, it's a point for Bonds because the Giants shouldn't be where they are right now. The differential in defense isn't big enough to make up for the huge gap in offensive numbers. Bonds is hitting 40 points higher and has just 4 fewer home runs and 19 fewer RBI's in almost 200 fewer at-bats. Not to mention the OPS totals, which is the most important stat of them all.

Well, we have to be realistic (and because of the park) his OPS, unless I am wrong about that stat formula, is a bit skewed....but you are correct...but if I was an owner (not for last or next year) I would take Pujols. You know it really is hard for me to take this stance because Bonds is haviing one of the best Off years period but that is my opinion.

But I have been wrong before...my buddy, I thought would never make the pros, won the MVP in 95 ... sorry chish8u....but I don't know if he deserved that one either.... ;)

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by Flashback
Well, we have to be realistic (and because of the park) his OPS, unless I am wrong about that stat formula, is a bit skewed....but you are correct...but if I was an owner (not for last or next year) I would take Pujols. You know it really is hard for me to take this stance because Bonds is haviing one of the best Off years period but that is my opinion.

But I have been wrong before...my buddy, I thought would never make the pros, won the MVP in 95 ... sorry chish8u....but I don't know if he deserved that one either.... ;)

How is Bonds OPS skewed because of his park? If anything it should be higher than it is because of the park he plays in.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Quake1028
BONDS IS BETTER DMN'T

Okay fine ... I will go with the crowd....BONDS IS THE MVP....(and I also said Beltre FUMAN)... :lol:

It's all fun and good....

[chrisih8u]

Originally posted by Flashback


But I have been wrong before...my buddy, I thought would never make the pros, won the MVP in 95 ... sorry chish8u....but I don't know if he deserved that one either.... ;)


Any friend of Mo Vaughn is a friend of mine. :up:

[Steveweiser]

Originally posted by fumanstan
Which is why it should be between Bonds and Beltre. I'm still confused as to why Rolen and Pujols seem to be talked about more then Adrian. And while i'm a Dodger fan, like i said before, as much as i hate Bonds and the Giants he *should* win it. No one comes close. But among the rest, i still don't understand how you one of the three Cardinals can be singularly more valuable then Beltre.
I agree. I hate the Dodgers as much as you hate the Giants, but I can't deny how great Beltre's been this year. He's had more big hits and more big home runs this year than anyone outside of maybe Sheffield. I'll still take Bonds though.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Quake1028
How is Bonds OPS skewed because of his park? If anything it should be higher than it is because of the park he plays in.

307? right?

[Flashback]

Originally posted by chrisih8u
Any friend of Mo Vaughn is a friend of mine. :up:

Damn that was quick...:lol:

(no Nomar comments today)

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by Flashback
307? right?

Guh?

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Quake1028
Guh?

It's 307 feet down right field line right?

[Steveweiser]

Originally posted by Flashback
It's 307 feet down right field line right?
Despite that, only 6 parks have a lower home run factor than SBC, so it obviously isn't that big of a help overall . Not to mention if you saw the Giants regularly like I do, you'd know that 307 difference doesn't mean a whole lot to Bonds.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Steveweiser
Despite that, only 6 parks have a lower home run factor than SBC, so it obviously isn't that big of a help overall .

Is that because most are right handed hitters? (serious question)

[The Cow]

check out the front page of ESPN right now :lol:

[Flashback]

Originally posted by chrisih8u
Any friend of Mo Vaughn is a friend of mine. :up:

Actually, there was another one of us that played ball from LL through HS together, that was Kevin Morton....they both went to Seton Hall. He actually made it up to the Sox too for a year....I think he set a record for K's as a lefty for maybe the first game for something....long time ago.

[Steveweiser]

Originally posted by Flashback
Is that because most are right handed hitters? (serious question)
Interesting question. I have no idea, to find out I'd have to look at every team's roster, and I really don't have the energy or interest for that tonight. What I can tell you though is that of the Giants 13 position players, 5 bat left-handed and 1 is a switch-hitter.

[chrisih8u]

I dont remember him. :(

[Flashback]

Originally posted by The Cow
check out the front page of ESPN right now :lol:

ESPN .... baaah ... ban the Cow now... ;)

[brkhrt7]

I'm a huge Cardinal fan but Bonds should be MVP no contest. Pujols had better stats last year compared to this year and still finished a distant second in the voting. Edmonds doesn't quite have the stats that some of the others up there do, although he has been hot in the second half and made some of the best defensive plays I've ever seen him make. Rolen has had a tremendous year in every aspect of play but I'd still give the vote to Barry regardless of his personality. Plus, the Cards have had too many players making big contributions this year to really single out one them. Being a fan of theirs I'm definitely not complaining about that. I'd much rather see a World Series in the city and I know anyone on the team would rather have that than an individual award.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by Steveweiser
Interesting question. I have no idea, to find out I'd have to look at every team's roster, and I really don't have the energy or interest for that tonight. What I can tell you though is that of the Giants 13 position players, 5 bat left-handed and 1 is a switch-hitter.

No...I don't expect you too either...just a thought that occured to me...but it is interesting that they are stacked on the left side.

Oh well, as I said before, Bonds ain't crap, I just like AP better (and yes to the Beltre fans I like him too).


CHRIS....he pitched for only one year (I think 90 or 91) and crapped out in AAA for a few years.

[The Cow]

Since it probably won't be on the front page of ESPN tomorrow (weird that it was there now),

Here's why Barry won't win:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=ratto_ray&id=1868418
(basically because he doesn't play for the better team - go figure)

Here's why Barry will:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/040826
(mostly stats)

And on the SBC ballpark being a pitcher's park; I have heard it is because the outfield walls are pretty tall. 25 feet or so. I have never been there, so don't have the real experience, but I'm pretty sure the stats for the park back up the fact that it is a pitcher's park. Maybe I'll look up the lefty vs righty vs other parks hitter's stats tomorrow...

[Flashback]

Thanks Crow...it's a bit weird-just like my argument...the fence I believe is higher than normal there but it is still a short distance.

The only real problem I have with this argument is that teams will not pitch to him. Odds are of course he will only get a base hit 3 out of 10x's and we would never really know and his OBP will be insane. But the argument he is walked is because he is that good and the rest are not in the lineup. Fair enough. I guess I am odd man out :lol:

I do have to say thanks to you guys because I have to sit here and wait for files to come in for a client and you have been great company :) (and dealing with some of my sarcasm).... I should be in bed by now :(

[IMRICKJAMES]

Enough with SBC being a pitchers park. Yes, overall it probably is, but look at the dimensions, it was built to have Bonds jacking HRs out. It was designed so Bonds would be hitting it into the cove for the crowd to cheer.

[Aphex Twin]

Beltre has not reached his full potential yet. He's only 25 years old (23? 20?) and is absolutely 5 tool (hobbled by his bone spurs though). This year he just learned to hit to the opposite direction, something everyone said he needed to do. I want Beltre back with the Dodgers next year and I would prefer that Beltre does not win the MVP (but he could win it next year though)....same reason why I am glad Gagne will not win Cy Young this year. Here's one word why: Bora$

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
Enough with SBC being a pitchers park. Yes, overall it probably is, but look at the dimensions, it was built to have Bonds jacking HRs out. It was designed so Bonds would be hitting it into the cove for the crowd to cheer.

Riiiight. So why aren't other lefties hitting them out at the same rate?

[El Scorcho]

307 down the line, 421 with a 25 foot wall in right center, 390 foot to straightaway center, I believe.

SBC is not a launching pad for lefties unless you can consistently wrap a ball around the pole.

[IMRICKJAMES]

Originally posted by Quake1028
Riiiight. So why aren't other lefties hitting them out at the same rate?

Name another SF Giant power hitting lefty. I'm not saying Bonds only hits HRs because of how they built the park, but anyone with half a brain can realize as soon as the blueprints were done the Giants ownership was salivating over Bonds splashes into the cove in front of a packed house

[twikoff]

Originally posted by IMRICKJAMES
Name another SF Giant power hitting lefty. I'm not saying Bonds only hits HRs because of how they built the park, but anyone with half a brain can realize as soon as the blueprints were done the Giants ownership was salivating over Bonds splashes into the cove in front of a packed house

his point is.. lefties from OTHER teams arent hitting homeruns there either
thats why all thats stats show it as such a tough park to him them out of

and its not like he hits them 306

he puts them in the friggin water!

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by twikoff
his point is.. lefties from OTHER teams arent hitting homeruns there either
thats why all thats stats show it as such a tough park to him them out of

and its not like he hits them 306

he puts them in the friggin water!

Finally someone with some reading comprehension ;).

[willpos]

Between Bonds and Beltre.

Bonds, because he's Bonds.

If the Giants don't make the playoffs, then Beltre, because he's having a better year than either Pujols or Rolen WITH far less protection. Will probably have one of the best seasons ever by a third baseman. As of right now, noone else belongs in the discussion. That is, if the Dodgers don't melt down again...

[B.A.]

Originally posted by brkhrt7
I'm a huge Cardinal fan...I'd much rather see a World Series in the city and I know anyone on the team would rather have that than an individual award. But of course.

[Flashback]

Originally posted by twikoff
his point is.. lefties from OTHER teams arent hitting homeruns there either

Hey no fair you guys started without me...;) So this is 2004? I thought we were talking 2003 j/k ...ANYWAY

I could not find those stats last night and that does throw that arument out. I actually asked the park question because I did not know. So .. do you think his numbers would be so superior if he was not walked all the time? If so then you got your man.

[willpos]

Bonds isn't the MVP, how valuable are you if 4 pitches takes you right out of the game? Bonds is a victim of his own success since he isnt going to finish with the HRs and RBIs of the other MVP candidates. In my mind you don't get the MVP because of your on base percentage.

Sorta my thoughts. Very icky situation. I actually think Beltre has done more to contribute to his team winning than Bonds. Getting walks means nada unless you score. Plus, Beltre has been a marvelous defensive 3B. Dunno.

But Bonds does get the media coverage, while poor Beltre is overshadowed by the lesser Scott Rolen and likes.

[willpos]

So .. do you think his numbers would be so superior if he was not walked all the time? If so then you got your man.

His home-runs would be +, but his OBP would be below the stratosphere. His average would probably drop a bit too.

[twikoff]

Originally posted by Flashback
So .. do you think his numbers would be so superior if he was not walked all the time? If so then you got your man.

the guy is a machine

as you mentioned.. there is a reason why he is walked so often
if you pitch to him.. there seems to be a better chance that he is going to hurt than...
percentage wise, he is going to get a hit 35% of the time
but pitching to him... you feel as though he is going to kill you 80% of the time.

he hits a homerun ever 8.4 at bats
and he bats up around .370

sure, his ops might drop to a human number
but his other numbers would definitly increase significantly with 100 more at bats

[twikoff]

Originally posted by willpos
His home-runs would be +, but his OBP would be below the stratosphere. His average would probably drop a bit too.

you know.. i wonder if his batting average would decrease

you would think it would only make sense that with more chances.. it would go down
but the thing is... alot of the outs he makes now, are when going after balls out of frustration of never being pitched to..
imagine if he could go up to the plate and know that the other team is actually going to try and get him out..
he has one of the best batting eyes in baseball.. and argueably the best swing (short of griffey jr).. toss in his power and smarts.. and i know it.. i think its tough to say outright that his average would be lower.

[Mad Dawg]

For me it's simple. The MVP award shouldn't go to the player with the best stats. Take Pujols out of the line-up, and the Cards will score enough runs to win based upon their pitchers this year. Take Beltre out of LA's line-up, and it's not so clear-cut. In fact, his absense would cripple them.

However, there is no doubt that removing Bonds would absolutely destroy the Giants. They have no Rolen or Edmonds or (now) Larry Walker. They don't even have a Shawn Green or Milton Bradley. It's not a matter of what he would do if he wasn't walked 180 times, it's the fact that teams feel like they have to walk him to have a chance to win. That's not true of anyone else on the list, although with Beltre's string of late inning HRs, he may float in that direction soon.

To say that a player shouldn't be the MVP when he so intimidates other teams that they have to pitch around him is a contradiction. Then you can bring in the stats, which for the few quality pitches that he sees in a game, are straight out of some other dimension.

[B.A.]

Originally posted by willpos
But Bonds does get the media coverage, while poor Beltre is overshadowed by the lesser Scott Rolen and likes. the lesser Scott Rolen? :rolleyes:

Beltre (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=134181)

Rolen (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_player_locator_results.jsp?playerLocator=Rolen)

[fumanstan]

Definitely not lesser, but certainly overshadowed. Especially defensively, where i think the two are about equal. Beltre needs to put up the similar offensive numbers for a few more years though.

[twikoff]

yes.. bonds gets media coverage
but its generally negative coverage thanks to his hatred for them :lol:

[willpo1]

I meant this year. Beltre has been better. Obviously Rolen has had a better career, but Beltre hasn't even reached his prime yet.

[twikoff]

Originally posted by willpo1
I meant this year. Beltre has been better. Obviously Rolen has had a better career, but Beltre hasn't even reached his prime yet.

thats hard to say too

beltre is in a contract year.. and players at known to have fluke seasons during a contract year..

he may have passed his peak and be on his way down for the 7 years he gets signed on the deal he will get during the offseason.

[El Scorcho]

History has not been kind to historically-mediocre players having a break-out season when it comes to MVP voting.

Brady Anderson's stats in 1996:
.297 BA, 50 HR, 117 RBI, 21 SB, 117 R, .637 SLU, .396 OBP, 1.034 OPS

Juan Gonzalez's stats in 1996:
.314 BA, 47 HR, 144 RBI, 2 SB, 89 R, .643 SLU, .368 OBP, 1.011 OPS

Very similar seasons, although I'd give the edge to Brady because of the stolen bases. Runs vs. RBI is a wash and all other averages are too close to make a difference.

Where did Brady Anderson finish in the voting?

NINTH.

Juan Gone?

FIRST.

Since Beltre's career so far has included 6 full seasons and he has previous career highs of 23 HR and 85 RBI, until he proves otherwise, you have to consider this season a fluke season so far for Beltre, much like Anderson in '96 and in some respect, Javy Lopez in '03.

[LurkerDan]

Originally posted by willpos
Getting walks means nada unless you score. That's ridiculous. Man on first, and Bonds gets walked. Next guy hits a single, scoring the runner on second. Bonds's walk meant nothing? :hscratch:

Not to mention that walks like that put more pressure on the opposing pitcher, causing them to throw more pitches, pitch with a runner on base (or since Bonds gets walked all the time with a runner on, it causes them to pitch with a runner now in scoring position). His wlaks affect the game in so many ways other than just him scoring. Not to mention that him not scoring is a function of the anemic hitters behind him, and shouldn't be held against him...

[twikoff]

not to mention they have been known to walk bonds with the bases loaded.. or to load the bases :lol:

[Red Dog]

Granted, I haven't watched any baseball this year but is there even an argument that can be someone other than Bonds. I don't see teams change the way play for any other hitter besides Bonds.

[grrrah]

Love him or hate him, to say Beltre Pujols or Rolen deservere the MVP over Bonds this year, you better pass that shit to me!

[El Scorcho]

A perfect example of Bonds' walk affecting a game.

He came up in a tie game with runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 out the other night vs. Florida.

Gets the IBB to load the bases.

Now, if you know anything about baseball or ever pitched a game or two, you'd know that pitching with the bases loaded (or a runner on 3rd) is much more difficult than with runners on 1st and 2nd. A passed ball, a wild pitch, a walk, a balk, etc. all score a run for the other team.

And sure enough, that's what happened. AJ Pierzynski walked to bring home the eventual game-winning run -- all setup by a manager who was too afraid to pitch to someone who records an out at the plate 63% of the time.

[grrrah]

An overlooked example of how good a hitter he is

(this may not be exact, but close enough, and it happens often if you follow most of the games)

a game against the expos, 1st inning, 2 out, runner on first, 4 pitches way out of the strike zone, semi-int BB, 3rd inning, bases empty, walk on 4 pitches. 5th inning, runner on 2nd, 2 out - IBB. 7th inning, game is a blowout, first strike he sees in 2 days, HR.

[LurkerDan]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
A perfect example of Bonds' walk affecting a game.

He came up in a tie game with runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 out the other night vs. Florida.

Gets the IBB to load the bases.

Now, if you know anything about baseball or ever pitched a game or two, you'd know that pitching with the bases loaded (or a runner on 3rd) is much more difficult than with runners on 1st and 2nd. A passed ball, a wild pitch, a walk, a balk, etc. all score a run for the other team.

And sure enough, that's what happened. AJ Pierzynski walked to bring home the eventual game-winning run -- all setup by a manager who was too afraid to pitch to someone who records an out at the plate 63% of the time. the simple fact that he was intentionally walked with runners on 1st and 2nd says it all. NO OTHER PLAYER IN MLB WOULD GET INTENTIONALLY WALKED IN THAT SITUATION.

[twikoff]

better yet.. he is the only player a manager would intentionally walk with the bases loaded and a 2 run lead late in a game!

[Aphex Twin]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25020&item=5119148647&rd=1

[twikoff]

:rolleyes:

[fumanstan]

Good price :up:

[JurisIL]

It's baseball gentlemen:

Look at the numbers.

Barry Bonds.

He's the best all around in numbers, nobody can get him out and his team is in contention, despite a critical lack of talent in all areas except for him, and Jason Schmidt, and let's not forget, the man is over 40 years old!

No other rational choice IMO.

Yeah, he's a prick, yeah, he's probably on 'roids, but hell, it's not a popularity contest. Rolen is probably the nicest guy in baseball, and Pujols is a prick...he shows up practically EVERY pitcher he hits a home run off of....but if he had Bonds' numbers, I'd be voting for him, asshole or not.

[twikoff]

Originally posted by twikoff
his point is.. lefties from OTHER teams arent hitting homeruns there either
thats why all thats stats show it as such a tough park to him them out of

and its not like he hits them 306

he puts them in the friggin water!

Barry has 2 homeruns tonight

one with 467 and the other went 462

and that one that was measured at 467,,, DEFINITELY went much further than that

[SPiRAL]

I voted for Beltre.....yes I'm a homer.

[LurkerDan]

For perspective, Bonds is .354 points above Todd Helton in OPS, the next closest guy. That's about the difference between Helton and Cezar Izturis.

The difference between Bonds and Beltre is .382. That's about 30 points MORE than the difference between Beltre and Alex Gonzalez of the Marlins.

Is there really any doubt about this?

[Josh H]

Bonds. The other team has to design their gameplan around them every single game. You can't say that for anyone else in baseball.

[El Scorcho]

btw, Bonds is on pace to break his own On Base % record. Nobody has ever been over .600 before. Outside of bonds, the next closest is .552. Thats 5%!

Oh, and he'll have another season when he's done this year that will land him in the top 5 Slugging percentages EVER.

Oh yeah, his 1.430 OPS is the best ever. In the history of the game. Even better than his 2002 and 2001 seasons.

And with 15 more walks, he'll break his own all-time season record.

And he has more intentional walks (96) than all but THREE players have total walks this season (Abreu - 97, Helton - 101, Berkman - 111).

Did I mention he was hitting .368?

But some of you think that despite yet another season that will break all-time records, he's not the MVP. :lol:

At least I know whos opinions to take seriously on this board now ;)

[B.A.]

A baseball writer (Matthew Leach) for mlb.com was just on the radio and said that he would vote for Bonds first (definitely if the Giants make the playoffs), then Edmonds, Pujols, Beltre and Rolen (in that order).

[fumanstan]

What a moron ;)

[Quake1028]

Originally posted by B.A.
A baseball writer for the Sporting News was just on the radio and said that he would vote for Bonds first (definitely if the Giants make the playoffs), then Edmonds, Pujols, Beltre and Rolen (in that order).

Smart guy :up:. My order would be Bonds, Rolen, Beltre, Pujols, Edmonds.

[twikoff]

My order would be Bonds, Beltre, Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Drew ;)

[fumanstan]

MVP Candidates - as of 9/3

Barry Bonds - .367 BA - 38 HR - 88 RBI - 106 R - 189 BB - 1.424 OPS

Albert Pujols - .332 BA - 43 HR - 116 RBI - 117 R - 1.089 OPS

Adrian Beltre - .338 BA - 43 HR - 99 RBI - 93 R - 1.038 OPS

Scott Rolen - .323 BA - 32 HR - 116 RBI - 101 R - 1.028 OPS

Jim Edmonds - .310 BA - 39 HR - 101 RBI - 92 R - 1.101 OPS

My order - Bonds, Beltre, Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen

[twikoff]

in my opinion.... Bonds/Beltre are clear 1/2, just because of the cardinal factor

and really. Pujols/Edmonds/Rolen can be interchanged at that 3-5 spots.. depending on how much emphasis you put on batting stats, fielding, clutch hitting, etc... And all 3 of them lose points because you cant be an MVP when surrounded by that talent, and they will all pull votes away from each other.

[Red Dog]

It seems clear that 44% of the voters here are on something.

[fumanstan]

Originally posted by Red Dog
It seems clear that 44% of the voters here are on something.

Hopefully its not steroids.

[B.A.]

Originally posted by Red Dog
It seems clear that 44% of the voters here are on something. http://datacore.sciflicks.com/spaceballs/images/spaceballs_large_05.jpg