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View Full Version : Star Wars DVD change?


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Mike Lowrey
07-14-04, 12:41 PM
I made mention of this on the Dutch Coverart thread, but I think it warrants its own thread, so...

This shot taken from the DVD trailer seems changed to me. I don't recall the extensive background (especially the TIE Fighter) or the number of troopers from this shot in the '97 SE.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Maximus/StarWarschange.jpg

Masamune
07-14-04, 12:43 PM
Pretty sure this was in the SE.

Look again.

bboisvert
07-14-04, 12:46 PM
Mike -- that Tie Fighter was absolutely in the SE. And the number of troopers looks unchanged. The scene looks identical to me.

Fok
07-14-04, 12:50 PM
Yep looks the same to me.

Shannon Nutt
07-14-04, 12:52 PM
I've seen DVD File's French to American trailer comparison, and I can see no differences...

bboisvert
07-14-04, 12:56 PM
Here's the guide to the 1997 SE changes:

http://www.theforce.net/swse/

This page (http://www.theforce.net/swse/anh/deathStar.html) has a small screen shot and mentions the Tie Fighter.

Mike Lowrey
07-14-04, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Masamune
Pretty sure this was in the SE.

Look again.

Are you sure?

I remember they had a different shot than from the original '77 version, with a few more troopers, but that background and all those troopers on the sides are, I swear, new.

I'd check, but I don't have a VCR hooked up and I don't know what happened to my VHS tapes anyway.

However, also finally getting the entire trailer downloaded, the sabers in the ANH duel did look enhanced.

Here's that shot:
http://www.photodump.com/direct/Maximus/Starwarschange2.jpg

Bottom shot is from US trailer, top from French trailer. Obviously the US trailer is from the old FF version.

bboisvert
07-14-04, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
I've seen DVD File's French to American trailer comparison, and I can see no differences...

I certainly don't see anything radical... but can someone else confirm that the Wampa scene is different?

I'm doing a frame-by-frame and it sure looks different to me... but it's hard because the aspect ratio is different and the frames don't exactly match up.

But it seems like the background is different and so are the movements.

Mike Lowrey
07-14-04, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Here's the guide to the 1997 SE changes:

http://www.theforce.net/swse/

This page (http://www.theforce.net/swse/anh/deathStar.html) has a small screen shot and mentions the Tie Fighter.

Well, OK, but I sure don't remember it being that extensive. I knew the shot had been changed from the original, but I sure don't remember the platform on the left and the TIE on the right.

Shannon Nutt
07-14-04, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
I certainly don't see anything radical... but can someone else confirm that the Wampa scene is different?

I'm doing a frame-by-frame and it sure looks different to me... but it's hard because the aspect ratio is different and the frames don't exactly match up.

But it seems like the background is different and so are the movements.

The Wampa scene is the same. I did notice the Obi-Wan/Darth lightsabers looked better in the French Version - but that's the ONLY thing I noticed.

The two videos aren't in perfect synch - which is why you may notice a slight difference (plus the fact that one is letterboxed and one isn't).

bboisvert
07-14-04, 01:12 PM
The change noticed by Artman in the other thread:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/bboisvert/leia.jpg

The corridor has been digitally altered.

Kal-El
07-14-04, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
Here's that shot:
http://www.photodump.com/direct/Maximus/Starwarschange2.jpg

Bottom shot is from US trailer, top from French trailer. Obviously the US trailer is from the old FF version.

Now that looks good.

Shannon Nutt
07-14-04, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
The change noticed by Artman in the other thread:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/bboisvert/leia.jpg

The corridor has been digitally altered.

Has it? Or are we looking at two different frames? The videos are NOT in perfect synch...

bboisvert
07-14-04, 01:26 PM
Shannon -- look at that section of the video and still frame it. They aren't *perfectly* in synch, but they are within a frame or two. Just look at the smoke in the upper-right corner, which is in an identical pattern in the two shots.

The backgrounds are different. It isn't an aspect ratio thing either... the "white" end of the tunnel is gone in the French.

Joe Molotov
07-14-04, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
Has it? Or are we looking at two different frames? The videos are NOT in perfect synch...

Looks the same to me. :confused:

bboisvert
07-14-04, 01:41 PM
Of course, if you look at the two "Leia corridor" scenes, you'll also see that her gun doesn't fire at all in the U.S. trailer. It may be that they've accidentally included some sort of pre-production shot in the U.S. trailer, without finished effects.

I'll have to dig out my LD and see what the corridor looks like there...

EDIT: I just step framed through my LD of the 1997 SE. It looks like the bottom (U.S. trailer) image. I suppose we'll have to wait until we have more than .5 second of footage for a confirmation, but this looks like a pretty definite change.

Adrenaline
07-14-04, 02:05 PM
I'm all for the changes if it means it looks better.

Terrell
07-14-04, 02:16 PM
The problem is we don't have hi-res screenshots to compare. We're always looking at lower resolution pictures. The detention block corridor has been changed, for the better as far as I'm concerned. That's a minor change that works for the better.

Rammsteinfan
07-14-04, 02:30 PM
I hope that they finally fixed that white saber when DV is walking towards the door after killing Obi... bugged me in the SE.

Mike Lowrey
07-14-04, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Adrenaline
I'm all for the changes if it means it looks better.

Right, and that's all I ever wanted all along. I just want the OT films to look at least a little bit like they were filmed or at least processed today with digitally enhanced effects and scene extensions, much as they're doing for THX 1138. These little tweaks are always welcome IMO.

Now I know most people have a huge issue with the Greedo thing and that's understandable. As well as the Jabba's Palace musical number, but for some crazy reason, I liked the musical number, if not for the skantilly clad dancers. ;)

I hope to God they have done something with the Rancor scene. That scene needs some major cleaning up/recompositing.

The tenticle that grabs C3-PO in the dungeon hallway in Jabba's Palace as he's being lead away by the Gamorrean Guards also needs a CGI replacement. That scene always bugged me from 1983 onward.

DavidH
07-14-04, 05:19 PM
Remember, that tie fighter in the background is exactly what Lucas wanted and always intended!

digitalfreaknyc
07-14-04, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey

However, also finally getting the entire trailer downloaded, the sabers in the ANH duel did look enhanced.


Where are you downloading it from?

emhello
07-14-04, 06:00 PM
Would have rather had Lucas working on the next Indiana Jones movie than editing the old Star Wars trilogy over and over...

DavidH
07-14-04, 08:47 PM
I don't know. Something tells me the next Indy movie would have just been plain bad.

Though, many say the same of Lucas' Star Wars changes...

Case01
07-14-04, 08:54 PM
Does anyone else feel that changing the film years upon years after it's release is wrong?I could see for legal issues if needed and such but once a final print is made and it's done at the box office it is done.I've no problem with releasing a "better" version later but these are coming first on DVD and will the real aka theatrical versions ever be on dvd?or the next format.

well thats my worthless semi rant.dont mind me

Playitagainsam
07-14-04, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Case01
Does anyone else feel that changing the film years upon years after it's release is wrong?I


Naaahhh.... how could we? We all love Luca$ and his practices, right?

Bill Geiger
07-14-04, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by digitalfreaknyc
Where are you downloading it from?

http://images.amazon.com/media/i3d/01/star-wars-trilogy-lo.asx

http://images.amazon.com/media/i3d/01/star-wars-trilogy-hi.asx

Josh-da-man
07-14-04, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Case01
Does anyone else feel that changing the film years upon years after it's release is wrong?

I don't think that subject has ever come up before.

The Valeyard
07-14-04, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Josh-da-man
I don't think that subject has ever come up before.


First time I heard of it.

;)

Artman
07-15-04, 12:13 AM
http://www.starwars.com/collecting/news/2004/07/news20040714.html

This is the closest we've come to any kind of 'official' confirmation about changes. An 'emperor hologram' figure from ESB is being released with the new classic wave of figs. Ian's name is mentioned, and that figure and small picture on the packaging sure doesn't look like the old version!

Also of note is the phrase "The rebel that destroyed the Death Star - Luke Skywalker" I wonder if that is one of the revised lines for that scene? Interesting, and kind of exciting! Two months to go...

Case01
07-15-04, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by The Valeyard
First time I heard of it.

;)

I know I just need to get full of myself and read myself post it which i have done and woopydee doo basel

chanster
07-15-04, 10:01 AM
Force.net reports that Boba Fett's voice has been changed to reflect a New Zealand-esque accent. Bobba's voice in the OT was awesome.

The madness of King George continues,

Artman
07-15-04, 10:11 AM
Yeah I don't like that at all. Wasn't it close enough to Temura Morrison already?

badlieut
07-15-04, 10:32 AM
"Put Captain Solo in the cargo hold mate."

Qui Gon Jim
07-15-04, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Case01
I know I just need to get full of myself and read myself post it which i have done and woopydee doo basel

Danol?

digitalfreaknyc
07-15-04, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Bill Geiger
http://images.amazon.com/media/i3d/01/star-wars-trilogy-lo.asx

http://images.amazon.com/media/i3d/01/star-wars-trilogy-hi.asx
that's not the trailer with the changes.

the french trailer is the one with the changes.

Kal-El
07-15-04, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by chanster
Force.net reports that Boba Fett's voice has been changed to reflect a New Zealand-esque accent. Bobba's voice in the OT was awesome.

The madness of King George continues,

tfn will report almost anything related to Star Wars. That being said, do you really care that much? The guy had what, 5 lines in the whole trilogy? One of which was "What the.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!" before plummeting to his death. (Yes, DEATH. Don't parade that EU crap that he was able to claw himself out of the Sarlacc Pit BS). That's really going to ruin the movie for you?

digitalfreaknyc
07-15-04, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Artman
http://www.starwars.com/collecting/news/2004/07/news20040714.html

This is the closest we've come to any kind of 'official' confirmation about changes. An 'emperor hologram' figure from ESB is being released with the new classic wave of figs. Ian's name is mentioned, and that figure and small picture on the packaging sure doesn't look like the old version!


actually...more importantly, the little picture on the box is the same one that's been floating around the web of the new Ian in Empire.

bboisvert
07-15-04, 11:01 AM
I say -- the more changes, the better.

1. Some of them may actually turn out decent. That means that down the road I can create a "bboisvert cut"... with the best from all 3 (or whatever) versions.

2. The more he screws with these movies, the more "regular folk" are going to notice, and complain. Eventually, it's going to get to the point where people don't recognize these as the films they loved. Again, the more changes he makes... the greater the chances that the original trilogy will show up again one day.

Hell, I honestly hope he sticks Jar-Jar into one of 'em. That'll get Joe Sixpack up in arms.

Rivero
07-15-04, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by chanster
Force.net reports that Boba Fett's voice has been changed to reflect a New Zealand-esque accent.

Jesus christ I hope not.

Kal-El
07-15-04, 11:59 AM
Yes, because everyone knows you're The Biggest Star Wars Fan right? :rolleyes:

Just post your staple copy-and-paste Luca$ slam from your Archive and be done with it.

Chrisedge
07-15-04, 01:16 PM
At first I was bummed I bought the Special Edition DVD-R's, Then I traded for the Original Trilogy DVD-R's (I own both verison on Laserdisc, so...), Looks like my purchase of these DVD's will be yet a quite different 3rd version.

wordtoyamotha
07-15-04, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Rivero
Jesus christ I hope not.

:lol:

My feelings are that they are going to be new movies enjoyed by new fans. Fans of the old movies (and I am one of them) are out of luck.

Mike Lowrey
07-15-04, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
I say -- the more changes, the better.

2. The more he screws with these movies, the more "regular folk" are going to notice, and complain. Eventually, it's going to get to the point where people don't recognize these as the films they loved. Again, the more changes he makes... the greater the chances that the original trilogy will show up again one day.

Nah, it'll never get that far. He'd have to completely digitally remove the orginal actors and replace them with aged versions of Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, and replacing Billy Dee Williams with someone like Jamie Foxx or Will Smith.

mythmaker18
07-15-04, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Hell, I honestly hope he sticks Jar-Jar into one of 'em. That'll get Joe Sixpack up in arms.

No it won't. About the only people it will upset is us "fanboys" and maybe film historians. J6P couldn't care less and probably won't even know anything's changed!

emhello
07-15-04, 02:10 PM
I am hoping for a Jar-Jar appearance in each movie in the trilogy!

ChrisHicks
07-15-04, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
Nah, it'll never get that far. He'd have to completely digitally remove the orginal actors and replace them with aged versions of Hayden Christensen, Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, and replacing Billy Dee Williams with someone like Jamie Foxx or Will Smith.

I still think Lucas should add a bunch of rappers to the films so they appeal to this generation. just imagine the possibilities; you could have Eminem as Luke, you couls also have the 1st ever dual role for Busta Rymes when he replaces both Chewbacca and Lando. "use The Force mutha' fu**a!!!".

sorry for the rant. I just wish he would remake the films if he hates the way they are at the moment. leave the originals alone and call them the bastards of the Lucas family.

GuessWho
07-15-04, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by emhello
I am hoping for a Jar-Jar appearance in each movie in the trilogy!

Unless he's killed in Ep III, I expect Jar-Jar in a Naboo celebration scene at end of ROTJ

Fok
07-15-04, 03:09 PM
I don't care what changes he makes to the O.T, as long as Jar Jar is not in them.

Feathers McGraw
07-15-04, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert Hell, I honestly hope he sticks Jar-Jar into one of 'em. That'll get Joe Sixpack up in arms.

Bang on.

This isn't the film I watched 12 times in 1977. Star Wars isn't being released in September. Some ungodly creation called A New Hope is, with a Microsoft-ian version number (I figure we're around 4.3.10.1874 by now). "Be sure to install Service Pack 2 in 2004 everyone".

It's really sad. I'm as big a Star Wars fan as most, and watching that trailer doesn't provide a single moment of excitement for me. It's just sadness, knowing that one of the greatest films of all time will never see the light of day again. Slowly, the tapes and vcr's will break, the laserdisks and machines will die, and all we'll be left with is this Bizarro version, passing itself off as Star Wars.

I still say if this was some nutjob "improving" classics like Gone With the Wind, Casablanca or Citizen Kane, everyone would be up in arms. But because it's Star Wars, nobody gives a damn.

Mike Lowrey
07-15-04, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Feathers McGraw
Bang on.

This isn't the film I watched 12 times in 1977. Star Wars isn't being released in September. Some ungodly creation called A New Hope is, with a Microsoft-ian version number (I figure we're around 4.3.10.1874 by now). "Be sure to install Service Pack 2 in 2004 everyone".

It's really sad. I'm as big a Star Wars fan as most, and watching that trailer doesn't provide a single moment of excitement for me. It's just sadness, knowing that one of the greatest films of all time will never see the light of day again. Slowly, the tapes and vcr's will break, the laserdisks and machines will die, and all we'll be left with is this Bizarro version, passing itself off as Star Wars.

I still say if this was some nutjob "improving" classics like Gone With the Wind, Casablanca or Citizen Kane, everyone would be up in arms. But because it's Star Wars, nobody gives a damn.

Yeah, you're right. It's all doom & gloom. The world's going to hell. The '77 version will never be available again. Well NEWSFLASH, it never was. The Episode number and ANH title were added in the '79 theatrical re-release. Of course this change in superficial in the over-all scheme of things, but I don't think any serious-thinking rational person could still just call Star Wars, "STAR WARS" when Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980. In fact, being that TESB was being made in '79 when the SW theatrical re-release was being done, Lucasfilm correctly changed the naming style of this saga.

Like I said in a previous thread a while back, changing the name of STAR WARS to Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope is no different than changing the name of "The Great War" to "World War I" when World War II started.

But I don't see one problem with digitally enhancing some effects, backgrounds, to do things that simply weren't technically possible when they were made.

It's no different that why some movies, such as the LOTR Trilogy, simply couldn't have been done until now without the use of digital technology. Think a LOTR trilogy could have been made in 1975? Hardly. But of course, you'd say, "Well, someone could just remake it." OK, well, couldn't someone just say (of which they actually have), "Why doesn't Lucas just remake the originals?" The answer to that is, "WHY?" All he's doing is updating them enough so that they'll appear at least "compatible" with the PT.

All this ranting and raving about, "Oh how Lucas is raping my childhood" or "Lucas is ruining film history, etc. etc" sounds like a bunch of whiney little spoiled kids who get a new car of the same model of their previous one, but complain that the new one has two more gadgets on it that their older one does, by screaming, "They ruined automotive history!"

bboisvert
07-15-04, 04:25 PM
Mike -- just curious... what change would push you over the edge? That is, what ISN'T okay to do to a film?

He's not just updating effects, backgrounds, and technical stuff... he's replacing actors in the film (for Palpatine and Anakin). He's overdubbing others (for Boba Fett). He's changing the entire tone of some scenes (Han shooting first, Luke screaming after letting himself fall in ESB). He's adding stuff that he thought of just recently (Naboo to RotJ celebration) and was never in the original script.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm honestly wondering... is there anything that Lucas could do where you'd finally say "Jeez, this is getting out of hand, he's ruining a movie I love". Or is it all OK?

(This question actually applies to anyone who thinks the SE changes and these new ones are fine... especially in light of the fact that Lucas is keeping the original version out of circulation. At what point does this cease to be "Star Wars" to you and actually becomes a different film?)

ChrisHicks
07-15-04, 04:43 PM
maybe Emmanuel Lewis can replace Yoda too.

Kal-El
07-15-04, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Mike -- just curious... what change would push you over the edge? That is, what ISN'T okay to do to a film?

(This question actually applies to anyone who thinks the SE changes and these new ones are fine... especially in light of the fact that Lucas is keeping the original version out of circulation. At what point does this cease to be "Star Wars" to you and actually becomes a different film?)

I know by saying this that I'll be steering the thread into old, dead-horse-beaten-to-death territory but to answer the question, that's the thing. It's not my call. I don't expect anybody from LFL to call me and go, "hey, is this ok if we did this?" He can do whatever he wants to do with the movies, whether I end up paying up for it and supporting it is another matter altogether. But to indulge you, for me I guess if he were to digitally add elements that weren't there in '77 for more than 50% of what's seen in the film. I dunno if that made sense. Hehe. Basically if let's say he suddenly made Dagobah NOT a swamp anymore. Or put Bespin on Kamino. Something of that magnitude. Replacing Shaw in a less than 10-second shot with Hayden doesn't bother me. Replacing Bobba Fett's voice doesn't bother me. Remove him from the film altogether for all I care. Show Naboo with the celebrations at the end? Go ahead. Maybe that'll finally shut up those who still admantly claim that Naboo becomes Dagobah. I think this is going to be a case-by-case basis. What may be ok for me I'm sure won't be ok with most of you. We'll never have a consensus on this thing methinks so I prefer to enjoy the DVDs, although I do plan on skipping the chapter that has Jedi Rocks in the ROTJ disc. :D

chanster
07-15-04, 05:12 PM
Yeah, you're right. It's all doom & gloom. The world's going to hell. The '77 version will never be available again. Well NEWSFLASH, it never was. The Episode number and ANH title were added in the '79 theatrical re-release. Of course this change in superficial in the over-all scheme of things, but I don't think any serious-thinking rational person could still just call Star Wars, "STAR WARS" when Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980. In fact, being that TESB was being made in '79 when the SW theatrical re-release was being done, Lucasfilm correctly changed the naming style of this saga.

Wow. What a totally unconvincing argument. No changes were made to the 79 release except for the opening and possibly a few random sound effects. If you want to sit around and nitpick, well go ahead, but there is a big difference between adding titles and completely stripping and adding to the movie (the 97 SE's and 04 SE SE).

And for the record, I was just a kid when the movies originally came out, but I have always referred to ANH as "Star Wars" I think a lot of people did as well..there was Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

chanster
07-15-04, 05:17 PM
And for the record, Boba Fett had some pretty fun lines in the trilogy..so yes they are memorable and I thought the voice actor did a great job with them. Replacing them with a new actor is just lame.

Kal-El
07-15-04, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by chanster

And for the record, I was just a kid when the movies originally came out, but I have always referred to ANH as "Star Wars" I think a lot of people did as well..there was Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

So what's the problem then? If you, me and a host of others refer to them as that, how does 3 new words affect your viewing experience? Just because they changed it in the crawl doesn't mean we have to call it that as well right?

Kal-El
07-15-04, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by chanster
And for the record, Boba Fett had some pretty fun lines in the trilogy..so yes they are memorable and I thought the voice actor did a great job with them. Replacing them with a new actor is just lame.

When I was still subscribed to the Insider, they enumerated all his lines. All 4 of them if I'm not mistaken. Then they added "What the...AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" as the fifth, if that was a line. All I can remember right now is "He's worth a lot to me alive" or something like that. Personally, I don't find it funny. What were the other 3? If it's anything just like that, I don't see how five lines from a secondary character would be the ones to stick out for you when there's Han, Yoda, Vader and the Emperor who all spout much more memorable lines. To each their own.

chanster
07-15-04, 05:47 PM
So what's the problem then? If you, me and a host of others refer to them as that, how does 3 new words affect your viewing experience?

It doesn't affect my viewing experience at all. I was referring to Mike's post who decided to get really nitpicky and say the "original" version of SW (or ANH) has never been available because the 79 re-release was the source of home video options up until the Special Editions.

chanster
07-15-04, 05:48 PM
And as far as number of lines, so what? In the original Terminator, Arnold speaks about the same number of lines, but they are all classics. Judging by number of lines means absolutely nothing.

Kal-El
07-15-04, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by chanster
And as far as number of lines, so what? In the original Terminator, Arnold speaks about the same number of lines, but they are all classics. Judging by number of lines means absolutely nothing.

I wasn't judging by the number of lines and the Arnold comparison is flawed as The Terminator was the main villain in those movies(heck, the movie is named after him even), while Bobba Fett was not in Star Wars. But going back to my point, it wasn't the number of lines he said. It's that it's such a small piece of a much bigger pie that has more "goodies" if you will so why nibble at that part? And I'm not telling anybody NOT to enjoy them, but to just look at the bigger picture.

Mike Lowrey
07-15-04, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Mike -- just curious... what change would push you over the edge? That is, what ISN'T okay to do to a film?

OK, I'll bite...let's see....

He's not just updating effects, backgrounds, and technical stuff... he's replacing actors in the film (for Palpatine and Anakin)

If you're referring to the TESB emperor hologram replacement with Ian McDiarmid, then I have absolutely NO problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I was hoping for it to be changed in the '97 version.

And the rumored Hayden replacement for the old guy in the ROTJ ghost, that I don't agree with. NOT because of the replacement, but because of the change in the idea that Jedis' ghost look as if they did when they were in their prime, NOT as they die.

He's overdubbing others (for Boba Fett).

Is he? We don't know that for sure. But even if that's so, and it's due to the revelations in Ep. II as to where Boba Fett came from, then so beit for continuity sake.

He's changing the entire tone of some scenes (Han shooting first,

Yes, yes....the Han shoots first thing....can I say, "BIG DEAL!!!" Does it change Han's character a little? Yes. But does it totally sway the way I view the rest of the trilogy? No. I just don't dwell on things that mean dittily shit on the over-all grand scheme of things.

Basically, I think the only people who truely worry about this scene are those who had an over-infactuation with the Han Solo character. The Star Wars story was always about the change in the balance in the Force concerning the Skywalker family. Not about whether or not Han Solo was a billy bad ass.

Luke screaming after letting himself fall in ESB).

Luke always screamed when he fell in that scene. Was the pitch changed from the original to the SE? Yes, a little, but I just chalked that up to a remastering bit, NOT a politically correct issue.

He's adding stuff that he thought of just recently (Naboo to RotJ celebration) and was never in the original script.

The revelation of the events of the Empire Strikes Back weren't in the script of Star Wars either. Adding Naboo is perfectly fine now that Naboo is canon in the Star Wars saga.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm honestly wondering... is there anything that Lucas could do where you'd finally say "Jeez, this is getting out of hand, he's ruining a movie I love". Or is it all OK?

Most of it is OK, with the exception of massive changes like calling Cloud City, "the big top in the sky".

Look, if it doesn't totally screw with continuity, then it's fine with me. What I want are six movies that when viewed together appear to be one long continuous saga that gels with consistance. And that consistance being in both story line and visual style.

Not updating the look of the OT would be like saying that Star Trek: TOS is the sequal series to Star Trek: TNG. I know, not quite the same but you get the idea. The original movie, Star Wars had such a late-'70s look to it that it just didn't fit in with even Empire, much less the current prequals. I mean you had lamb chops on the men, big triangular collars on Aunt Beru, and computer screens that looked like something out of Buck Rogers. And then in the prequals we see computer screens similar to what we see in modern Trek.

In fact, I wished they could digitally remove those lamb chops on the men. You see, these faults DATE the original movie. These movies should be timeless, no? Seeing late-70s hair and clothing styles kill the timeless image.

(This question actually applies to anyone who thinks the SE changes and these new ones are fine... especially in light of the fact that Lucas is keeping the original version out of circulation. At what point does this cease to be "Star Wars" to you and actually becomes a different film?)

They become different films when the plot, characters, and places change. Is the new THX 1138 George Lucas Director's Cut a different film? No, same film, new up-dated effects.

Playitagainsam
07-15-04, 06:43 PM
Quick question - I might not be "getting" a cultural reference... what "lamb chops" are you talking about?

emhello
07-15-04, 06:45 PM
Bottom line is the fanboys will be the first ones buying this set regardless of what changes are made.

bboisvert
07-15-04, 09:47 PM
I guess what I'm asking (rather inelegantly, I suppose) is can Lucas do something specific that would upset the people that seem to say "Big Deal!" when something is changed... like adding Hayden 'for 10 seconds' or making Greedo shoot first.

Let me give a specific example. Episode I mentions 'midichlorians' for Jedi powers. This term does not appear anywhere in the original trilogy. What if Lucas considered that to be a big mistake, and he went back and had a new actor overdub all of Alec Guinness' lines. And he digitally altered Obi-Wan's lips in one scene to make him refer to a Jedi's midichlorian count. This doesn't radically change the plot -- plus it keeps it consistent with the prequel trilogy. But is that OK? Is removing an actor's performance that has been part of the film for 30+ years acceptable?

Kal-El -- I understand what you are saying about "It's not my call", but I disagree. People become personally involved in good works of art. That is, after all, why people usually create art in the first place. At some point, I think it becomes unacceptable for an artist to alter his work at the expense of people being able to experience the original. Whether he legally/morally 'owns' it or not.

It's revisionist thinking... Lucas isn't the same man he was when he put pen to paper in 1972 to make this thing. I think the prequels are showing that pretty clearly... he's rethinking stuff as he goes along. Should a 25+ year old film series that is beloved by millions now be forever altered because Lucas changed his mind decades later?

My usually hypothetical applies. If the director of King Kong were still alive and decided to replace the klunky 'dated' Kong with something more CGI and 'timeless'... not a single person in the world would consider this to be a good thing. Yet, somehow, Star Wars gets a pass on this from a fairly large number of people. I honestly don't get it.


And, yes, I'll be buying the set. I'm not in boycott mode or anything... I don't hate Lucas. I don't bash Lucas. I think Lucas has done more good for the state of film than most people in the past 50 years. But as a lifelong fan of these films, I can't help but be incredibly dissapointed that what I'll be seeing in anamorphic widescreen, 6.1 sound this September will be so radically different than what was originally presented.

Porthos
07-15-04, 10:47 PM
Dang Nabit!!!

Does this mean I have to "acquire" a copy of the SE DVD's as well?!? :confused:

John

PS: For the humor imparied, I am not advocating bootleging. However.... I just KNOW that Star Wars Completists out there will now be scurring for DVD copies of the SE. Legal or not.

Please tell me I'm wrong. :)

madcougar
07-15-04, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
Mike -- just curious... what change would push you over the edge? That is, what ISN'T okay to do to a film?

Man I want to buy these movies. I NEED to buy these movies. I was 7 when Star Wars came out and I freaking loved it. Everytime Lucas has made a change I've basically just grimaced and let it go. But he is REALLY changing the heart of the movie, to the point where I am going to have a tough time laying my money down for this. I know that talk of bootlegs is a big no-no here, but I think Lucas is just BEGGING us to go and support these guys.

Captain Harlock
07-15-04, 11:18 PM
Okay I'd like to add my two cents if I may....

For me alot of the changes are silly. Adding Hayden Christiansen at the end of ROTJ, Han shooting first.....I mean come on now. Give people a little credit here. It's almost like George Lucas has tried to slip these under the door thinking nobody will notice them. If it was a background here, maybe a little nicer wipe or disolve then I wouldn't mind that much.

Bear with me for a second but let me put this out there; What if somebody at United Artists said "We're going to go back and 'improve' all the old 007 films. We're going to insert new digital effects into all of them and super impose Pierce Brosnon into every movie all the way back to Dr. No so that younger audiences will appreciate it more". Sounds stupid but I kind of feel that it's the same sort of thing. For me the appeal of the Bond films is that there are these little nuiances like different actors playing Felix Lieter, different actors playing James Bond, and different things you notice that become a part of film lore if you will. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who say "George Lucas raped my childhood!". But part of the fun in the Star Wars series is now lost. You really don't look at the films the same way.

Okay I've said my piece. Thank you for your time.

sracer
07-15-04, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by bboisvert
I guess what I'm asking (rather inelegantly, I suppose) is can Lucas do something specific that would upset the people that seem to say "Big Deal!" when something is changed... like adding Hayden 'for 10 seconds' or making Greedo shoot first.

The answer is: No. Those who claim, "no big deal" do so under the premise that it is Lucas' films and he can do whatever he pleases with them. So, if they really mean what they say, then they should maintain that position even if Lucas were to digitally superimpose actors from the prequel trilogy into the OT.

Star Wars "fans" are not fans in the traditional sense where "fan" was short for "fanatic"...as in fanatical about the minutia... every frame, every scene, every prop is lovingly remembered. Actually, that holds true for most things, not just Star Wars.

I think it goes to society as a whole... where absolutes are shunned, and relativism is the word of the day. (edited to expand) The "absolute" of Star Wars is as Star Wars was back in 1978 is something that isn't very popular.... but the "relative" Star Wars of... whatever Lucas believes it is at that time is what it is, is popular.

Terrell
07-16-04, 03:03 AM
He's not just updating effects, backgrounds, and technical stuff... he's replacing actors in the film (for Palpatine and Anakin)

First of all, you don't know what he's doing because absolutely nothing has been officially confirmed at all.

As for replacing actors, replacing the monkey-eyed old woman in ESB with Ian McDiarmid is a great change. Anyone that says otherwise is just a whiner that will complain about any change. Ian McDiarmid is the Emperor. The monkey-eyed old woman in ESB looks and sounds nothing like the Emperor that's in all the other films. End of story.

As for replacing Shaw with Hayden at the end of ROTJ, I don't like the change. It creates more problems than it solves. But, I won't believe it until I see it on the DVDs or it comes from Lucasfilm. We've never been given any legitimate sources to confirm it's legit. Just some picture from AICN, whic has about as much credibility as Supershadow.

He's overdubbing others (for Boba Fett).

Please show me where that is confirmed? That is nothing more than a rumor passed along at TF.N that has no basis in fact.

He's changing the entire tone of some scenes (Han shooting first

It's one of the four changes I don't like. It didn't need to be change. But how long are you and other going to harp on this issue. It's done. Hopefully he'll either restore it or at least make it look a whole lot better. As for changing Han's character, slight at best. Han is still the same selfish, gun toting, renegade he has always been in ANH.

He's adding stuff that he thought of just recently (Naboo to RotJ celebration) and was never in the original script.

As Mike said, it's not in the original script because the prequels weren't even made yet. Now that the prequels are part of the saga, it should be in there. And what's so wrong with the change? Once you've added a different celebration scene, what's one more 5 second shot of Naboo celebrating going to hurt? But I'll ask you again, where is the official confirmation that this is being added? I've heard nothing official. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Either way, this change is not a big deal.

Luke screaming after letting himself fall in ESB).

Another dumb change that's worse than Greedo shooting first. But Luke does have his mouth open for what it's worth.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass here, I'm honestly wondering... is there anything that Lucas could do where you'd finally say "Jeez, this is getting out of hand, he's ruining a movie I love". Or is it all OK?

I don't know, Vader buttf***ing Chewbacca?

Quite frankly, that's going way overboard. These films won't be much different from the SEs. They'll just be better looking. 95% of the changes are just FX cleanups and touchups. 98% of the original films are still present in the SEs, because he didn't edit out parts of the originals. He just added to it. But the SEs still have the same tone and character. They still look, feel, and sound like Star Wars.

You should wait to see what the changes are before proclaiming them ruined.

http://www.beml.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/starwars.gif

And, yes, I'll be buying the set.

You obviously are upset about this. If you truly feel that strongly about it, why buy the DVDs and support what you don't agree.

Folks, this is about the thousandth time we've gone in circles with this argument.

Terrell
07-16-04, 03:14 AM
Force.net reports that Boba Fett's voice has been changed to reflect a New Zealand-esque accent.

No, TF.N reports that there's a rumor that Boba Fett's voice may be changed. There are a whole lot of rumors getting passed around. Some people will instantly believe everything they read.

aam1
07-16-04, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by emhello
I am hoping for a Jar-Jar appearance in each movie in the trilogy!

Have you not seen the picture of Jar Jar sitting next to Han Solo in the Cantina, just before Greedo shoots?

Snowmaker
07-16-04, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by aam1
Have you not seen the picture of Jar Jar sitting next to Han Solo in the Cantina, just before Greedo shoots? That'd be great if, after he shot Greedo, he turned and shot Jar Jar.

Qui Gon Jim
07-16-04, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Captain Harlock
Okay I'd like to add my two cents if I may....

For me alot of the changes are silly. Adding Hayden Christiansen at the end of ROTJ, Han shooting first.....I mean come on now. Give people a little credit here. It's almost like George Lucas has tried to slip these under the door thinking nobody will notice them.

When will you people get it through your thick heads?? MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT NOTICE. "WE" are not most people.

I am sure, in time that all versions of these films will be available. Just enjoy what is being released, or find a LD or "equivalent" and quit bitching and clogging legitimate discussions with SW threadcrapping. Jesus!

kcbrett5
07-16-04, 10:33 AM
This entire thread is silly. The original post was about a scene that he thought was changed and everyone else agrees was not changed.

The rest of the thread is people making ridiculous suggestions and other people getting outraged by them.

Busta Rhymes as chewbacca and Emmanuel Lewis as yoda.

But while we are on the subject, Eminem would make a great Luke Skywalker. I'd buy 3 copies each if they make that change. And replace those silly Jabba's palace muppet singers with rappers. Then ROTJ wouldn't suck so much.

Rivero
07-16-04, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Terrell
As for replacing actors, replacing the monkey-eyed old woman in ESB with Ian McDiarmid is a great change. Anyone that says otherwise is just a whiner that will complain about any change.

Or maybe just someone who prefers the way the Emperor was interpreted in Empire as opposed to all of the other films. That calm, menacing emperor was better than the silly Mr. Burns fogy of Jedi and the prequels, and there are plenty who agree.

Terrell
07-16-04, 11:44 AM
Or maybe just someone who prefers the way the Emperor was interpreted in Empire as opposed to all of the other films. That calm, menacing emperor was better than the silly Mr. Burns fogy of Jedi and the prequels, and there are plenty who agree.

And there are many, many more who disagree. It doesn't matter what you prefer. Ian McDiarmid is the Emperor, and he was far better and far more menacing than the silly looking emperor in ESB. The ESB emperor wasn't menacing at all. Non-threatening and stupid looking is more like it. Ian McDiarmid just plain rules.

Mike Lowrey
07-16-04, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by kcbrett5
This entire thread is silly. The original post was about a scene that he thought was changed and everyone else agrees was not changed.

The rest of the thread is people making ridiculous suggestions and other people getting outraged by them.

Busta Rhymes as chewbacca and Emmanuel Lewis as yoda.

Emmanuel Lewis as Yoda? Nah...now Gary Coleman on the other hand.... ;) "Wha'chu talkin' 'bout Luke?"

Mike Lowrey
07-16-04, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Rivero
Or maybe just someone who prefers the way the Emperor was interpreted in Empire as opposed to all of the other films. That calm, menacing emperor was better than the silly Mr. Burns fogy of Jedi and the prequels, and there are plenty who agree.

Oh com'on. Do you really believe that? That people actually prefer the brief holographic appearance in TESB as the definitive Emperor, when you have basically a whole movie of Ian McDiarmid's emperor in ROTJ, plus Palapatine's appearance in presumably all three prequals?

That would be like saying that people prefer the bad CGI Jabba in ANH-SE as the definitive Jabba as opposed to the ROTJ Jabba and the decidedly better CGI Jabba in TPM.

bga
07-17-04, 12:54 AM
You know, I was really upset when I heard that Lucas was going to colorize the SW series for the DVD release. That's just wrong. It always looked just fine on my (B&W) TV, and I don't think he should change a thing for any of the namby-pamby joe sixpacks who won't buy it unless it's in color.

ckolchak
07-17-04, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
Oh com'on. Do you really believe that? That people actually prefer the brief holographic appearance in TESB as the definitive Emperor, when you have basically a whole movie of Ian McDiarmid's emperor in ROTJ, plus Palapatine's appearance in presumably all three prequals?

That would be like saying that people prefer the bad CGI Jabba in ANH-SE as the definitive Jabba as opposed to the ROTJ Jabba and the decidedly better CGI Jabba in TPM.

uh, i prefer the original Emperor from ESB by a WIDE mile over Ian- especially Ian as Emp in ROTJ for exactly the reason that Rivero gave.

Ian 's Emp is basicially the George Lucas school of filmmaking 101- "be very explicit"
if you are supposed to be a big bad evil character- you must cackle and hiss and play the part so a blind 4 yr old can see that you are the bad guy.
(this is the same asthetic that tells Lucas "han is a good guy so i can't possibly have him shoot first- or- Jabba is mentioned in the catina...must show Jabba immediately after that-or- Vader leaves cloud city to go to his star destroyer, must show him exiting...it's yet another sign of how this once fine filmmaker has lost sense of nuance and the power of subetly and allusion- he no longer subverts unnecessary details...he tediously elaborates them in full cgi relief)
yes, for some reason that kind of obvious play acting seems to resonate with the seeming majority of fans, but i will never enjoy it more than the glimpse of the cold, distant, subdued authority that Vader bowed before originally.
i was expecting a new, rich character to be fleshed out in Jedi and what i got was a one dimensional cartoon villian
"hisssss...join me or die....cackle...i will make you turn eviiiiilll...oh i am so deliciously bad...are you evil yet?"

groan.
i keep waiting for Hansel and Gretal to stumble by so the emperor can pop them in the oven.

dom56
07-17-04, 10:38 AM
As long as Lucas does'nt take out the dancer's boob shot in ROTJ, I well be a happy man. :)

Terrell
07-17-04, 11:54 AM
groan.

i keep waiting for Hansel and Gretal to stumble by so the emperor can pop them in the oven.

Then you would prefer Lucas edit out McDiarmid and replace him with that abomination in ESB, right? I'm not surprised you like that emperor in ESB. That emperor wasn't evil or foreboding or threatening. He was a complete waste of time and space. He might as well have told Vader to have a nice day when he was finished. He wouldn't turn anyone to the dark side. He would have put Luke to sleep. No thanks, I'll take the threatening emperor everytime.

Besides, it's like I said, nobody cares what you want. Ian McDiarmid is the Emperor, not that goofy looking thing in ESB, and it's not even up for debate. That's why the change is being made. There are bad changes and good changes. This isn't one of the bad ones.

By the way, pick a new argument. You keep rehashing the same ones over and over in every thread. We know you think Lucas is a no talent hack. You can have your opinion. We don't need to hear it in every thread. Move on. It's obvious you get no enjoyment out of Star Wars, so move on like rational people do. Stop dwelling on that which you don't enjoy.

Mike Lowrey
07-17-04, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by ckolchak
uh, i prefer the original Emperor from ESB by a WIDE mile over Ian- especially Ian as Emp in ROTJ for exactly the reason that Rivero gave.

Ian 's Emp is basicially the George Lucas school of filmmaking 101- "be very explicit"
if you are supposed to be a big bad evil character- you must cackle and hiss and play the part so a blind 4 yr old can see that you are the bad guy.
(this is the same asthetic that tells Lucas "han is a good guy so i can't possibly have him shoot first- or- Jabba is mentioned in the catina...must show Jabba immediately after that-or- Vader leaves cloud city to go to his star destroyer, must show him exiting...it's yet another sign of how this once fine filmmaker has lost sense of nuance and the power of subetly and allusion- he no longer subverts unnecessary details...he tediously elaborates them in full cgi relief)
yes, for some reason that kind of obvious play acting seems to resonate with the seeming majority of fans, but i will never enjoy it more than the glimpse of the cold, distant, subdued authority that Vader bowed before originally.
i was expecting a new, rich character to be fleshed out in Jedi and what i got was a one dimensional cartoon villian
"hisssss...join me or die....cackle...i will make you turn eviiiiilll...oh i am so deliciously bad...are you evil yet?"

groan.
i keep waiting for Hansel and Gretal to stumble by so the emperor can pop them in the oven.

uh, I think you must be the ONLY one in the entire world that considers/prefers the 3-minute holographic emperor in TESB to be the quintessential emperor. 99.9999% of the people in this world consider and accept Ian McDiarmid's emperor. For two very simple reasons. His portrayal of the role in ROTJ, and his portrayal of Sen. Palpatine in the prequals.

So in order for you, ckolchak to be be 100% satisfied, Lucas would have to CG change the emperor in ROTJ and the prequals to the same FEMALE actress that was in TESB. However, you don't like what Lucas did, by changing just the one single, short appearance in TESB to the well established Ian McDiarmid role. However, this is the logical choice, which of course confuses you. I understand. If I too were an irrational person, logic would confuse me as well.

ckolchak
07-17-04, 01:38 PM
so Terrell, what you are saying is - that you walked out of your first viewing of Empire thinking "wow..good movie, but if only they had cast someone different as the emperor...he really stunk up the part and that scene sucked because of him"?

huh..wha?
just about every kid i knew back in 1980 that talked about the film, thought it was a great scene as it was.

hey, the guy got replaced for the sequel- happens all the time- you happen to love the new actor and the way he was directed to be transparent and obvious about his intentions 100% of the time (in front of Luke).
works for you and Mike...that's great.

it didn't for me.
it was one point among many of the production of that film that i felt was beneath the bar that had been elevated with Empire.


if Ian had been cast way back for Empire (George unfortunately lacked the technology in 1980 to do this) then i'm sure i would have accepted him immediately as the gold standard...but he didn't and as a fan of the movies i was left with two slightly different interpretations of the character.
i'm just making a subjective, comparative judgment between the implications of one presence and the realization of another.

So in order for you, ckolchak to be be 100% satisfied, Lucas would have to CG change the emperor in ROTJ and the prequals to the same FEMALE actress that was in TESB.
two points
1) you guys keep harping on the emperor being played by a woman.
would you please get off this.
the character is presented as a slightly vauge, discretely lit transmission with a clearly lower octive stenatorian voice.
the mere fact that a woman may have been in the shadow draped suit and prosthetic appliances doesn't mean jack-
i found the Ian emperor to have a much higher (re: woman like) voice...a much rounder face compared to the longer, more angular ESB emp (curves=feminine/angles=masculine).
to me Ian has always come across as the Emperor as a twisted, hunched old grandma.

that is my personal rational for my contrary opinion.
i appreciate that the character of the emperor/palpatine has been finally a bit more fleshed out thanks to the sequels- but i would have glady traded the 6+ hours of *bliss* those provide to have just one truly satisfactory followup to the themes and complications embellished in Empire.
ROTJ just wasn't it.
for me.

2) and no replacing Ian in ROTJ would not satisfy me. the film has deeper, more fundemental problems than just the casting of one part- to me.
i fail to enjoy the film for much the same reason i fail to enjoy other 'popular' films.

However, this is the logical choice, which of course confuses you. I understand. If I too were an irrational person, logic would confuse me as well.

i'm sorry.
i didn't realize the last post was expressing confusion.
i fully understand the change, but i don't appreciate it.
i realize many do.


and just to follow up- i find seduction to be more evil and more threatening than to overtly state your objective the way they have the emp do in Jedi.
there would have been- even if the rest of the film had remaind the same- ways to change the context of way the emperor was trying to corral Luke to the dark side.
if he did in fact view Vader as weakening and Luke as material for a much stronger, longer lasting protege- he could have more strongly set up Vader as the fall guy and himself as Lukes ally...instead of just basically saying-"i'm evil, join me"
again, the film takes a bland, linear progression when the previous film was a little more oblique and offered a little more to chew on.

geez- sorry for being a fan that actually gives the films critical thought instead of just fawningly lapping up everything thats presented as is.

Terrell
07-18-04, 02:08 AM
so Terrell, what you are saying is - that you walked out of your first viewing of Empire thinking "wow..good movie, but if only they had cast someone different as the emperor...he really stunk up the part and that scene sucked because of him"?

Of course not. That was not the argument at all. But Ian McDiarmid is the definitive Emperor of Star Wars. It's not even debateable. I'll state again, the emeperor in ESB was not threatening, foreboding, or perceptibly evil. It didn't ruin the movie though. It was a small part. Ian McDiarmid was evil in spades. I think if you're going to play an iconic, evil character, you better not play it straight laced. Otherwise, you're not threatening or evil. You're just there. Not to mention the ESB emperor looked horrid.

For continuity's sake, the emperor in ESB needs to be replaced because she/he looks and sounds absolutely nothing like the emperor in all of the other SW films. Simple as that. It's a good change, as long as the scene close to what was always there.

i found the Ian emperor to have a much higher (re: woman like) voice...a much rounder face compared to the longer, more angular ESB emp (curves=feminine/angles=masculine).
to me Ian has always come across as the Emperor as a twisted, hunched old grandma.

That's funny considering it was a woman in the makeup in ESB.

Actually, I'd say just the opposite. The ESB emperor is more angular because it's a woman playing the part. Her thinner face makes it look more feminine. Look from the bottom of the eyes all the way down to the end of the chin. It looks more feminine in the ESB emperor.

instead of just basically saying-"i'm evil, join me"

Oh come now. That is a gross, oversimplification of the throne room sequence. It is far more complex than you're giving it credit for being. You're basically arguing against the ROTJ, rather than arguing for the ESB emperor. Palpatine did in fact set up Vader as the fall guy. Remember, only two there are, a master and an apprentice. Vader was always the fall guy. Palpatine had to foresee that Luke would prevail. That was his plan. Not only was that his plan, but setting the trap was designed to push Luke over the edge. Palpatine was always in complete control in Jedi, up until the point Luke defied him.

when the previous film was a little more oblique and offered a little more to chew on.

I think you've imagined all of this in your head. There is nothing there as far as the ESB emperor goes. You want to talk about a bland approach to a character, look no further. In fact, Vader did all the thinking for him in that scene.

I'm not saying you can't like one over the other. But this is a good change for continuity. Not only that, it gets rid of that godawful look the emperor has in ESB.

just fawningly lapping up everything thats presented as is.

This accusation needs to stop. I've never fawningly lapped up anything, ever. I'm just not as hardcore about changes such as these. There are 4-5 changes I don't like and we all know what they are. But what else is there to do but accept it. In the end it's not enough to make me go hardcore and refuse to buy the DVDs. Come September, I'll be watching the DVDs. Come September, you probably won't because you can't look past or accept any changes.

ckolchak
07-18-04, 06:27 AM
There are 4-5 changes I don't like and we all know what they are. But what else is there to do but accept it. In the end it's not enough to make me go hardcore and refuse to buy the DVDs. Come September, I'll be watching the DVDs. Come September, you probably won't because you can't look past or accept any changes.

actually i've come to grips with the realization that yes, i will be buying this set after all.
these were some extraorinarily influential films to me growing up and i haven't watched Empire since its SE release in '97.
i've caught ANH once or twice on cable since then, and it was during one of these viewings where i realized i actively disliked quite a few of the 'improvments'.
so i'm basically going to be eager to sit down with these discs in my HT- only to be fast forwarding thru what i feel are intrusive alterations, just to get a taste of the unadulterated, unprocessed essence of something i used to love.
what i'm going to be buying in Sept (or actually Oct since i will be on the road when these hit) are discs containing the trailers for these films...extended, extra long 40+ minute trailers.

i used to own the super8 condensed version of Empire which came out to about 28 minutes or so, and i enjoyed it enormously. i'm hoping that i can be satisfied with a not-quite-as condensed version of these now.
it's in that tragic spirit that i'll be buying them.

because ultimately, these things are going to sell anyway. there is really no way- financially to send the filmmaker a message as to how i as a consumer/customer would like to be served when i lay out my money for one of his products.
the only recourse any of us really have is to vent and howl on boards like this.

like pooping or belching is to eating- i see that as a natural process when you consume something of this nature.

as for the Emperor- i guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
while i think i have already exhaustively detailed my opinions on the matter-
i would just make one more observation as to which one is more evil, more threatening, etc...
the function of the emperors character in his appearence in ESB is really not to be either evil or threatening.
he is privately contacting a subordinate and giving him urgent, important information.
in the film you see the way two major imperial figures deal with their subordinantes differently.
the emperor is presented as a rather vauge character, not really menacing, just eerie (the altered features that you can only glimpse in mostly shadows, etc) - by contrast Vader comes across as dynamically swift, decisive, and brutal.

i honestly believe that the emperor was utilized the way he was in that shot because he was originally not supposed to be (the resolved main villian) in ROTJ.
as Kurtz has said the original intention was to leave the final conflict with the Empire itself until the last trilogy.
this flies in the face of comments from the lord & master, but i honestly just can not accept anything he says anymore as anything more than "this is what he says today".

that's not lucas bashing- i can point to plenty of published material that never got contradicted once in the wake of the first 3 films, that is constantly contradicted now with the appelation "i always intended it to be that way".

flyboy
07-18-04, 09:05 AM
I was always under the impression that the emperor in ESB was Alec Guiness in makeup. I could swear that I remember reading that way back then in the Star Wars fan club news letter...maybe Im just on crack!

digitalfreaknyc
07-18-04, 10:50 AM
That's funny considering it was a woman in the makeup in ESB.

Umm...no it wasn't.

milo bloom
07-18-04, 11:24 AM
Yep. Woman's face, with monkey eyes and Clive Reveill voicing.

flyboy
07-18-04, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by milo bloom
Yep. Woman's face, with monkey eyes and Clive Reveill voicing.

Is there anyway to verify this? Website etc...

flyboy
07-18-04, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
Yeah, you're right. It's all doom & gloom. The world's going to hell. The '77 version will never be available again. Well NEWSFLASH, it never was. The Episode number and ANH title were added in the '79 theatrical re-release. Of course this change in superficial in the over-all scheme of things, but I don't think any serious-thinking rational person could still just call Star Wars, "STAR WARS" when Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980. In fact, being that TESB was being made in '79 when the SW theatrical re-release was being done, Lucasfilm correctly changed the naming style of this saga.

Like I said in a previous thread a while back, changing the name of STAR WARS to Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope is no different than changing the name of "The Great War" to "World War I" when World War II started.

But I don't see one problem with digitally enhancing some effects, backgrounds, to do things that simply weren't technically possible when they were made.

It's no different that why some movies, such as the LOTR Trilogy, simply couldn't have been done until now without the use of digital technology. Think a LOTR trilogy could have been made in 1975? Hardly. But of course, you'd say, "Well, someone could just remake it." OK, well, couldn't someone just say (of which they actually have), "Why doesn't Lucas just remake the originals?" The answer to that is, "WHY?" All he's doing is updating them enough so that they'll appear at least "compatible" with the PT.

All this ranting and raving about, "Oh how Lucas is raping my childhood" or "Lucas is ruining film history, etc. etc" sounds like a bunch of whiney little spoiled kids who get a new car of the same model of their previous one, but complain that the new one has two more gadgets on it that their older one does, by screaming, "They ruined automotive history!"

"A New Hope was not added until "81" rerelease

cactusoly
07-18-04, 12:28 PM
One thing thats always got to me is why people complain about changes in the visual effects but say nothing about altering the mono and stereo tracks to digital 5.1 or 6.1. If you are such a purist changes in the audio tracks should piss you off too. just a thought...

Mike Lowrey
07-18-04, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by ckolchak
actually i've come to grips with the realization that yes, i will be buying this set after all.
these were some extraorinarily influential films to me growing up and i haven't watched Empire since its SE release in '97.
i've caught ANH once or twice on cable since then, and it was during one of these viewings where i realized i actively disliked quite a few of the 'improvments'.
so i'm basically going to be eager to sit down with these discs in my HT- only to be fast forwarding thru what i feel are intrusive alterations, just to get a taste of the unadulterated, unprocessed essence of something i used to love.
what i'm going to be buying in Sept (or actually Oct since i will be on the road when these hit) are discs containing the trailers for these films...extended, extra long 40+ minute trailers.

i used to own the super8 condensed version of Empire which came out to about 28 minutes or so, and i enjoyed it enormously. i'm hoping that i can be satisfied with a not-quite-as condensed version of these now.
it's in that tragic spirit that i'll be buying them.

So you're going to buy just to spite George Lucas, so that you can sit an watch them over the years to come while cursing Lucas 'till your heart's content.

because ultimately, these things are going to sell anyway. there is really no way- financially to send the filmmaker a message as to how i as a consumer/customer would like to be served when i lay out my money for one of his products.
the only recourse any of us really have is to vent and howl on boards like this.

Right. There is practically nothing the consumer can do that would influance the sale of this release. The number of people who will not buy in protest is miniscule compared to those who will buy them. After all, the Star Wars Trilogy has been the number one requested DVD since the format hit the market in '97. And now that it's coming, there's nothing that will stop sales.

like pooping or belching is to eating- i see that as a natural process when you consume something of this nature.

So you'll be giving this release the TriumphTM treatment, then? That's nice.

as for the Emperor- i guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
while i think i have already exhaustively detailed my opinions on the matter-
i would just make one more observation as to which one is more evil, more threatening, etc...
the function of the emperors character in his appearence in ESB is really not to be either evil or threatening.
he is privately contacting a subordinate and giving him urgent, important information.
in the film you see the way two major imperial figures deal with their subordinantes differently.
the emperor is presented as a rather vauge character, not really menacing, just eerie (the altered features that you can only glimpse in mostly shadows, etc) - by contrast Vader comes across as dynamically swift, decisive, and brutal.

OK, here's what I don't get. You keep stating that the TESB emperor was more evil, etc... Can you tell us how you could possibly get this feeling from such a short appearance, and one that is shrouded in a lousey 1980's-tech hologram?

You can't tell me that when Darth Sidious (Palpatine), in TPM, said, "Wipe them out...all of them." that he wasn't the quintessential evil SOB.

i honestly believe that the emperor was utilized the way he was in that shot because he was originally not supposed to be (the resolved main villian) in ROTJ.

Maybe so, but what does that have to do with the way the character and Ian, the actor eventually portrayed him?

as Kurtz has said the original intention was to leave the final conflict with the Empire itself until the last trilogy.

You mean, Episodes VII-IX?

Quite frankly, I'd love to see these made using the Dark Empire story-line.

cactusoly
07-18-04, 12:39 PM
another point is yes it will sell a ton no matter what changes or lack of changes there are. If Lucas and co are so greedy why are they spending the time, effort and, money to update the trilogy when people would buy them in any form regardless.

Mike Lowrey
07-18-04, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by cactusoly
One thing thats always got to me is why people complain about changes in the visual effects but say nothing about altering the mono and stereo tracks to digital 5.1 or 6.1. If you are such a purist changes in the audio tracks should piss you off too. just a thought...

If that was a truely legitamit argument, then viewing these films (at home) on anything other than their original film elements would be a complaint.

First it was Beta-Max, then VHS, then LD, and now DVD, and then shortly, we'll have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

DVD has the better picture and sound quality. So why not improve those. And since DVDs have the capacity for multiple audio tracks, the easiest solution is to include the original audio tracks, beit mono or Hi-Fi stereo.

Mike Lowrey
07-18-04, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by cactusoly
another point is yes it will sell a ton no matter what changes or lack of changes there are. If Lucas and co are so greedy why are they spending the time, effort and, money to update the trilogy when people would buy them in any form regardless.

Why bother to "improve" anything?

That's a stupid question. Simply put, Lucasfilm wants to at least put out a close to finished product on this format this time around.

Do you want to continue to buy copies of these down the road because some new changes are or aren't there?

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of buying the Star Wars Trilogy. I bought at least six versions of these films on VHS. The pre-THX P&S and WS, the THX P&S and WS, the SE-WS, the re-release SE-WS, because my VCR ate my original TESB-SE.

So I'm hoping this is the last time I have to buy this trilogy, until the next format.

ckolchak
07-18-04, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
So you're going to buy just to spite George Lucas, so that you can sit an watch them over the years to come while cursing Lucas 'till your heart's content.

Mike, i just don't know where you're coming up with this. nowhere in the passage that you quoted did i mention buying them for any other reason than to enjoy the parts that i have always liked and the changes that don't distract me- and i will be fast frwding/ skipping the parts that do.
i could care less about what Lucas thinks (really- i don't have a high regard anymore for his creative choices as pertaining to these films and i certainly don't care about what he thinks about anything else)





OK, here's what I don't get. You keep stating that the TESB emperor was more evil, etc... Can you tell us how you could possibly get this feeling from such a short appearance, and one that is shrouded in a lousey 1980's-tech hologram?

1) they were bordering an asteroid belt- the spotty transmission/hologram was perfectly in keeping with this situation.
yeah Vader says "move the fleet so we can send a clear transmission"- but the fact that is not completely clear gives the scene a little more verisimiltude.
2) its not so much that the ESB was more evil, etc... it was that i found the Emperor part (and performance ) in ROTJ to be so one note and thin and obvious.
by contrast, ESB contained a glimpse of the ultimate Imperial authority figure...the personage before whom even the ultra black hearted villian Vader bows down to.
he wasn't cackling or sneering...he was simply large and authoritative and vaders resonse to him was what gave the character it's weight.
to me, that quick scene implied what could have been a more interesting nuanced character than what we eventually got.

you do know that they are also, along with inserting Ian, changing the dialouge in this scene?


You can't tell me that when Darth Sidious (Palpatine), in TPM, said, "Wipe them out...all of them." that he wasn't the quintessential evil SOB.


yes, i agree that was a great line (and a very iconic line reading).
the problem for someone like me is- you have to sit thru more than 1 and 1/2 hours of Jake Lloyd and Jar-Jar and midichlorians to get to those few nice bits w/ Ian.
once the "real deals" are on the shelves, the prequels will have a lot less pull for a lot of people.
as much as i enjoy some of the sequences in AOTC, the characters here just do not have the same capacity to draw me is the way the OT did.
as nice as a demo disc as that film is- i will be pulling it out far, far less after 9/21

Terrell
07-18-04, 03:35 PM
he is privately contacting a subordinate and giving him urgent

This discussion is perhaps moot. Because I imagine if Ian McDiarmid played the part in ESB originally, then the scene would play exactly the same as it always has. But I just don't see much there, because the scene is not very long and we really don't see enough of the emperor to know how he would have been played. It's certainly not a bad scene by any means, other than the makeup effects were pretty horrendous.

Is there anyway to verify this? Website etc...

Trust me. It was an older woman in makeup playing the part of the Emperor in ESB. They superimosed monkey eyes over her eyes to achieve the look. It's well documented. Clive Revell, who sounds an awful lot like Alec Guiness, did the voice-over.

because ultimately, these things are going to sell anyway. there is really no way- financially to send the filmmaker a message as to how i as a consumer/customer would like to be served when i lay out my money for one of his products.

True! If 60,000 signatures couldn't make a difference, what amounts to a small boycott won't either. Besides, Lucas will probably release the originals after he's milked these new ones.

Artman
07-18-04, 03:39 PM
I gotta say I too preferred the ESB emperor. BUT, I also am in favor of putting Ian in now. Looking forward to this release - only two months to go!

Breakfast with Girls
07-19-04, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by milo bloom
Yep. Woman's face, with monkey eyes and Clive Reveill voicing.
No. At least no woman I've ever met. Harping on Empire Strikes Back's Emperor as being a woman makes as much sense as saying the same about Greedo.

That's a mask, not a makeup job.

<img src="http://www.thejawa.com/customs/reference/e5/emperorholo/emperorholo1.JPG">

<img src="http://www.thejawa.com/customs/reference/e5/emperorholo/emperorholo2.JPG">

Playitagainsam
07-19-04, 01:16 AM
I have the Original Trilogy on LD. I'm also glad I downloaded (through a certain popular BitTorrent site I won't mention here) the DVDs made from the OT LDs by someone else, with better technology than what I have. They're probably the best ever version we'll ever see on DVD, outside of an official release. It's like Bob Dylan's 'Basement Tapes' album... These changes, whether rumoured or real, coming after the changes seen in the SE versions, make me sick. No matter how much people will say "it's Lucas' baby, he can do whatever he pleases", the fact is revisionism is anti-cultural....

bothanspy
07-19-04, 05:17 AM
I'll add a couple of things. 1 story related, and 1 Lucas related.

Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).

Lucas related- I've given up being angry with respect to the tinkering of the films. If you really think about it, these films will remain timeless. When the next generation comes in, they are not going to care about SE vs OT vs SSE...etc. They will just enjoy the films as they are. How many people here raise a stink about the lost cuts of the Blues Brothers, The Good the Bad and the Ugly, Manchurian Candidate, Gone with The Wind, etc. As time passes, people will forget.

Long after he passes, Lucas will only be remembered for these six films. Granted, he controls a media empire that extends into special effects, gaming and anything else you can think of. But after he's gone, these films are the only thing that will remain. If he wants to make them how he wants now, sobeit. He's already sucked the money out of us. He's looking to the future. He's looking to make sure his movies don't fade away (forgive the pun). While I disagree with him, I think I understand it.

Back to the bickering.

GuessWho
07-19-04, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by bothanspy
I'll add a couple of things. 1 story related, and 1 Lucas related.

Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).

The Emperor was always mentioned in Episode IV

I believe there's a line stating that "The Emperor has dissolved the Senate" and maybe another mention or two

flyboy
07-19-04, 11:34 AM
Yeah Tarkin mentioned him and I think Vader did once....

ZackR
07-19-04, 11:49 AM
Story Related- Irrespective of the debate over the ESB emperors and "empresses", I hope they leave him out of Episode IV. In Ep IV, you think that Vader is the biggest badass in the galaxy. Then, come the next film, and then the viewer sees him bow before another. It just deepens the aura of the Emperor's power in my mind because you know his power knows no bound. By introducing him in Episode IV, however, I believe you damper the effects of Vader's power (and his mystery).I agree for the most part...that is if "4-6" Trilogy is watched first. Same goes for the "Luke's father" thing. All the suspense there is shattered by the prequel trilogy. Once part 3 is out, if someone watches the entire saga from Ep1-6, much of the impact of certain points in the "4-6" trilogy will be lost, because all the surprises will be spelled out for you by the Prequel Trilogy. Who is Luke's father? No question there. Dramatic emphasis lost. Who is Yoda? When Luke lands on the planet and Yoda says, "Take you to him I will," you will already know that it is actually Yoda speaking. Who is Luke's sister? Umm, well that will most likely be obvious after Ep3, but I suppose George Lucas could choose to only show Luke's twin and not name her....
When my son (now 4 months old) is old enough to watch and enjoy Star Wars for the first time, I will show him the "4-6 Trilogy" first and then later show him the prequels and tell him they are sort of a "back story" to Star Wars. I will show him Ep4-6 (which to me are really the only true SW movies) and then show him 1-3 and tell him they basically give you more info on what happened in Star Wars. If I show him Eps 1-3 first, then all the dramatic impact of those films will be lost! Don't get me wrong, I do not HATE the prequels, I just think they ruin some of the greatest elements of surprise and drama in the Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents. :)

Kal-El
07-19-04, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Breakfast with Girls
No. At least no woman I've ever met. Harping on Empire Strikes Back's Emperor as being a woman makes as much sense as saying the same about Greedo.



Kersh and Lucas have said in several interviews that I've read and too lazy to look up now that it was a woman and an Orangutan or some such primate's eyes superimposed on her. Can't really get any more official than those 2 right? This is no urban legend that us Star Wars fans believe blindly. This is something that's been known for awhile now.

Zman
07-19-04, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by ZackR
Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents. :)

I couldn't agree more.

Mike Lowrey
07-19-04, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by ZackR
I agree for the most part...that is if "4-6" Trilogy is watched first. Same goes for the "Luke's father" thing. All the suspense there is shattered by the prequel trilogy. Once part 3 is out, if someone watches the entire saga from Ep1-6, much of the impact of certain points in the "4-6" trilogy will be lost, because all the surprises will be spelled out for you by the Prequel Trilogy. Who is Luke's father? No question there. Dramatic emphasis lost. Who is Yoda? When Luke lands on the planet and Yoda says, "Take you to him I will," you will already know that it is actually Yoda speaking. Who is Luke's sister? Umm, well that will most likely be obvious after Ep3, but I suppose George Lucas could choose to only show Luke's twin and not name her....
When my son (now 4 months old) is old enough to watch and enjoy Star Wars for the first time, I will show him the "4-6 Trilogy" first and then later show him the prequels and tell him they are sort of a "back story" to Star Wars. I will show him Ep4-6 (which to me are really the only true SW movies) and then show him 1-3 and tell him they basically give you more info on what happened in Star Wars. If I show him Eps 1-3 first, then all the dramatic impact of those films will be lost! Don't get me wrong, I do not HATE the prequels, I just think they ruin some of the greatest elements of surprise and drama in the Original Trilogy. To me, the Original Trilogy is Star Wars, while the Prequel Trilogy are movies that take place in the Star Wars universe...
Just my 2 cents. :)

Some excellent points there. You're right. Some very suspenseful moments of truth in the OT will be complete destroyed by knowledge gained in the PT. So yeah, you're right, showing the Star Wars saga to someone new would be beneficial to show them the OT first and the PT to help explain the back story that was mentioned in the OT.

Another example would be the whole "Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi...including Luke's father." thing. As well as him being a fighter pilot during the Clone Wars.

Well anyway, it's going to be interesting if Lucas has changed any of this dialogue in the OT to be more in line with the chronology established in the PT.

Artman
07-19-04, 03:03 PM
Hey Breakfast - pretty neat pics, I'd never seen those before. Any more good behind-the-scene ones like that?

Spiky
07-19-04, 04:59 PM
Thank god I have the LDs. I should've acquired an Iscan to watch this stuff better, maybe it's time to visit Ebay....

The issue for many of us will ALWAYS be:
If they would clean up the OT and put it on a DVD, they can do whatever the hell they want to the SE with no complaints. But genius has stated that he 'messed up' the original originals in making the SE and refuses to try putting out the OT. If true, this is stupid. If lies, it's still stupid. (note: I didn't say anything about my childhood....it's just STUPID)

I will get the SE set, but it's a different version of the movie. They don't fit together at all. Just like I have both theatrical and EE of LOTR, but I don't swap between the 2 versions when watching them. They are different movies.

Terrell
07-19-04, 05:59 PM
Long after he passes, Lucas will only be remembered for these six films.

Um, no! That really is a misguided statement. George Lucas will be remembered for Star Wars of course. But he will also be remembered for Indiana Jones, which he created. He'll be remembered for American Graffiti and THX-1138, both truly great films. He'll be remembered for creating Willow as well, which is not a great film, but an entertaining one.

Not only will he be remembered for his films, he'll be remembered for ILM and Skywalker Sound, the premiere post-production facilities in the world. Lucas has had a major impact on the film industry, in many areas. Lucas revolutionized film effects with his creation of ILM and his pioneering effects work in Star Wars. Without his contributions, effects may very well be 10 years behind where they are today. Many in the VES seem to think so. Many of the films made today wouldn't even be possible. Don't even get me started on how he impacted the film industry when it comes to sound. Don't forget LucasArts. He will be remember in the videogame world as well.

Digital filmmaking is another area where he's had a huge impact on filmmaking. Not only pushing digital technology to get better, but to get it in theaters for a myriad of reasons. It's not at it's full potention yet, but he's gone a long way to improving it by leaps and bounds by working directly with Sony, Panavision, Toshiba, and Fujinon. I also believe Lucas had a hand in Avid.

I know some Star Wars fans have grown to hate Lucas. I'm also sure some misguided fans will only remember him only for Star Wars. But to the people that matter, his place in film history is secure.

Besides, he has many years ahead of him. He will make more films after Episode III is over.

Terrell
07-19-04, 06:03 PM
I will get the SE set, but it's a different version of the movie.

I don't agree at all. They are the same films. One is just tweaked. The tone and character of the SEs are the same as the originals. They still look, sound, and feel like the original Star Wars films.

Playitagainsam
07-19-04, 07:09 PM
The funny part is... if the moron (Lucas) would put BOTH versions on DVD, most people (even those really upset by the SE's) would end up buying both versions... Can't he really see that?

Terrell
07-19-04, 07:18 PM
Can't he really see that?

Well, I'm not sure he is convinced that the overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans would buy his vision if the originals were released. I think he believes that if he puts his new visions out there, that only a minority of fans would only buy the originals.

I think he's also trying to keep the price of this box set at a reasonable level so casual and mainstream movie fans will buy it. If he included the originals, that would add 3 more discs to the set, making it a 7 disc set. Then the box would retail for well over $100, basically cutting a huge hole in sales. Many casual movie fans wouldn't buy a $100+ DVD box set, even if it is Star Wars. Look no further than the Alien Quadrilogy. Nice sales for such a huge box set, but nowhere near the numbers both he and Fox want. Seamless branching wouldn't work on these DVDs. Too many changes and scene recompositions have been made.

I imagine you'll get the originals someday. But he's going to make sure his vision is seen by the masses first. Then he's likely to put the originals out, meaning even more money.

Qui Gon Jim
07-19-04, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
Well, I'm not sure he is convinced that the overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans would buy his vision if the originals were released. I think he believes that if he puts his new visions out there, that only a minority of fans would only buy the originals.

I think he's also trying to keep the price of this box set at a reasonable level so casual and mainstream movie fans will buy it. If he included the originals, that would add 3 more discs to the set, making it a 7 disc set. Then the box would retail for well over $100, basically cutting a huge hole in sales. Many casual movie fans wouldn't buy a $100+ DVD box set, even if it is Star Wars. Look no further than the Alien Quadrilogy. Nice sales for such a huge box set, but nowhere near the numbers both he and Fox want. Seamless branching wouldn't work on these DVDs. Too many changes and scene recompositions have been made.

I imagine you'll get the originals someday. But he's going to make sure his vision is seen by the masses first. Then he's likely to put the originals out, meaning even more money.

Excellent analysis and I want to add that releasing the original cuts next to the SE in seperate boxes would totally confuse the market. J6P is confused enough by WS/PS.

Patience! The original cuts will come in time.

flyboy
07-19-04, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Qui Gon Jim
Excellent analysis and I want to add that releasing the original cuts next to the SE in seperate boxes would totally confuse the market. J6P is confused enough by WS/PS.

Patience! The original cuts will come in time.

No they won't as they NO LONGER EXIST. I want them too but we have been told they are gone...I think we all need to accept that fact and finally move on....

emhello
07-19-04, 07:53 PM
Stop overreacting people. I'm sure these won't be as bad as you think.

Mike Lowrey
07-19-04, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by emhello
Stop overreacting people. I'm sure these won't be as bad as you think.

My setiments exactly. I'm sure once the reviews come out on A/V quality and even the changes, both subtle and contraversal, that this set won't be nearly as bad as everyone seems to think it'll be.

Personally I can't wait for this set just for the improvements in A/V quality and visual effects.

Cartload
07-19-04, 09:11 PM
You'd think it would have been easier for him to make the prequels fit with what was established in the OT instead of revising the OT to fit with the PT. I guess I'd be wrong. Just my two cents.

I'll be there on September 21st to pick this up. It should be a feast for sight and sound.

ckolchak
07-19-04, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
I don't agree at all. They are the same films. One is just tweaked. The tone and character of the SEs are the same as the originals. They still look, sound, and feel like the original Star Wars films.

for me, it's never been a question of
Model effects vs cgi- or enhanced sunsets, etc.
i could probably even live with a superfluous extension to the "Looks sir, droids" scene-
but there are more than several scenes in these films where the inclusion of unneccessary detail alters the tone and focus of the scene.

it's one thing to have a howling moving dewback in the background as the camera pans off them and over to the meat of the scene (the stormtrooper holding up the evidence of droids).
i would always prefer the scene as it has been burned into my cortex...the original pace of how it is intergrated to scenes fore and aft, will always seem more appropriate to me.
but its something that wouldn't take me a major effort to get over/look past.

however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

kajs
07-19-04, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by ckolchak
however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

You hit the nail on the head. A crummy cgi Ronto walking past the camera in a classic scene is very pointless...but this arguement will only be greeted with "It's his movie, he can do what he wants with it!"

Playitagainsam
07-19-04, 10:50 PM
... not to mention the entire Jabba in the docking bay is absolutely useless and repetitive, with almost exactly the same dialogue as the scene between Han and Greedo...

Mike Lowrey
07-19-04, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by ckolchak
for me, it's never been a question of
Model effects vs cgi- or enhanced sunsets, etc.
i could probably even live with a superfluous extension to the "Looks sir, droids" scene-
but there are more than several scenes in these films where the inclusion of unneccessary detail alters the tone and focus of the scene.

it's one thing to have a howling moving dewback in the background as the camera pans off them and over to the meat of the scene (the stormtrooper holding up the evidence of droids).
i would always prefer the scene as it has been burned into my cortex...the original pace of how it is intergrated to scenes fore and aft, will always seem more appropriate to me.
but its something that wouldn't take me a major effort to get over/look past.

however, when you have a scene that was supposed to subtley relay key information
"you don't need to see their identification..."
and you have new, added elements that are not static, but actually moving around and making noise in what is otherwise a static shot- that to me is definitley altering the tone of the material in what is a subtle but key scene (lukes first first hand experience with the jedi/force in action).

sorry Terrell, dumb cgi revisionism for the sake of something new and cool to look at is just plain stupid and it becomes a question to me, at that point, of just what is the directors values here?
is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

I'd reply to this post, but quite frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean really...you lost me there. The extended Dewback scene really destroyed the flow of the scene there to the previous and following scenes? Sorry, I don't see it.

Mike Lowrey
07-19-04, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Playitagainsam
... not to mention the entire Jabba in the docking bay is absolutely useless and repetitive, with almost exactly the same dialogue as the scene between Han and Greedo...

Which may explain why that scene was cut to begin with. However, you all do understand that scene was originally shot back in '76 with a big fat guy as a stand-in for Jabba, right?

Terrell
07-19-04, 11:17 PM
Model effects vs cgi- or enhanced sunsets, etc.

Um, I don't know exactly what you saw, but 98% of the original film is still in there. Most of the model shots are still there. Even part of the stuff that was added to Mos Eisly was models.

A crummy cgi Ronto walking past the camera in a classic scene is very pointless

There was also a stupidly placed yellow droid passing through the scene as well. I don't remember anyone complaining about that.

As usual ckolchak, we disagree. Then again we could probably argue for 6 months and I doubt we'd agree on anything relative to Star Wars. When I see the SEs, they still feel like Star Wars to me. Maybe they don't for you.

is his interest really in telling the story or is it now to just give himself, and the new generation of ADD moivegoers shiny new $#it to look at?

Well, his interest is in storytelling, but it's also to complete his vision for a 6 film saga. That's why he's trying to update the look of the films to try and bring them at least a little bit in line with the prequels. You may not like that, but that's the intent. It's not to piss off fanboys and it's not being done to give people more shit to see.

You'd think it would have been easier for him to make the prequels fit with what was established in the OT instead of revising the OT to fit with the PT.

Then he'd be slammed for making a new movie that looks like it was made 25 years ago. The prequels are entirely different stories in different settings. There really is not way to make them look alike, he just rehashes the locations and characters exactly as they were in the original trilogy.

We're really beating this poor horse senseless.

Terrell
07-19-04, 11:19 PM
No they won't as they NO LONGER EXIST.

I hope you don't believe that. I guarantee you that Lucas has copies of the original trilogy sitting in the Lucasfilm archives.

Terrell
07-19-04, 11:39 PM
Pics removed as a courtesy to Jay!

Dazed
07-20-04, 12:38 AM
my main gripe was the terrible Jabba in Star Wars. Oh God what were they thinking!!! Hopefully that will be fixed properly (or removed) in the special-special edition.

I also hated Lukes Girly Scream. I didnt mind Greedo shooting first, its just that it was done with lame visual fx (the laser almost came out the side of the gun from what i remember).

Of course the Death Star Explosion with the very old flame ring stolen form ILMs work on Star Trek VI (i think) was also a bit lame but oh well.........

I think the originals will be released eventually. Lucas is a good business man and wont pass up an oppurtunity to make money. Of course we may have to wait many years for it (HD-DVD anyone ? :) )

Terrell
07-20-04, 12:55 AM
my main gripe was the terrible Jabba in Star Wars. Oh God what were they thinking!!! Hopefully that will be fixed properly (or removed) in the special-special edition.

I do believe the scene will stay in the film, but I also believe that ILM is completely replacing that Jabba from the SE with a newer Jabba that looks like the one from TPM.

Something like this.

http://www.theforce.net/multimedia/archive/Images/Episode_1/Screen_Captures/Wdscrn055.jpg

I didnt mind Greedo shooting first, its just that it was done with lame visual fx

I don't think Lucas will restore this scene back to the original, which is what I wish he'd do. But I do believe the Han/Greedo scene will be fixed so that at least it looks a whole lot better than it does in the SE. There was a test footage video of that scene which had been changed to look much better. Whether it was legit or not, I have no idea.

I personally believe if there is one or two changes that he'll restore back, it will be the Luke scream and the Vader line change in ESB.

ckolchak
07-20-04, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Dazed
my main gripe was the terrible Jabba in Star Wars. Oh God what were they thinking!!! Hopefully that will be fixed properly (or removed) in the special-special edition.



no offense, but to me that is a very superficial complaint.
you don't like it because it looks dodgy, but otherwise you don't mind that that the scene and dialouge contained in the scene are totally redundant- not to mention that it climaxes with a very silly mstk3-worthy money shot of Boba Fett? (just short of waving and saying "here i am kids").

actually this scene doesn't bug me much at all, because good cgi or crapy cgi, i can easily chapter skip it and never have to have it interupt my veiwing experience greatly.

not so with things like the Rontos and hovering probe droids (although these are really just an annoyance in the once sequence i mentioned- when they are going door to door and there is other physical movement in the scene my reaction is "its not the original version of the scene...but eh, whatever").

ckolchak
07-20-04, 04:36 AM
Let me do a bit of comparison of the SEs and the originals using the Jay Pennington site.

SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/dewnew1.jpg

Original version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/dwbkold.jpg

I see this as a good change. The additions are seamless and the scene isn't hurt by this change. Not to mention it looks a whole lot better.


i already said i could live with this.
the only problem i have with it is that the films exist like music in my head.
they are like songs i've heard hundreds of time-this scen was originally a very quick, abrubt bit- the stormtroopers head pops up very quickly (without any grandiose establishing panning) you are fed info quickly, and it therefore had a kinetic energy coming in between the other scenes that bookend it.
it's little scenes like that and the way they are cut into the whole that make me believe this should have been the film in 1977 to win the award for best editing.

...oh wait...that original cut did win, didn't it. (but that was edited by Marcia who is someone, by most accounts, he pretty much despises now...hmm...that's the way to show her George!
i honestly think the contributions of people like Marcia to the film are why George reportedly can't stand to watch the original version- or make it available for public consumption- this film was beloved and created the empire that he controls today-why on earth should he feel so antagonsitic to it otherwise?
sorry--huge tangent there )

ok, if i rachet down my disgust and pyschoanalysis for a second-
the new version is just as if someone went back and added a few bars to one of my favorite songs...it throws something off .
yes 98% of the song is still the same (there's just more good music now!)
like i said- while i felt the precise pace of the film where this scene is in the original
was very interesting and that the slowing of the pace here to indulge in eye candy is not what i prefer- i could 'get over it'.
it is ultimately 'not a huge deal'.

let's just be clear about something-
the scene exists in the movie to impart imformation- that the empire now has evidence that droids were in the escape pod and this is what they will now concentrate their search on.
the scene was never concieved as primarily a sequence where they could show cool looking alien creatures.
they were subverted to the background
because they were non essential elements in the scene.
they were originally just backdrop-
they have been moved to to a foreground focus now .
this is a material change in the pacing of the sequence(s) albeit a relativley minor one




SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/spdrnew1.jpg

Original version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/spdrold1.jpg

Again, SE version is much better.


i have absolutely 100% no problem with this whatsoever.
this is a fine alteration that does absolutely nothing to disrupt the flow or pace of the story/film


SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/bennew.jpg

Originals:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/benhut.jpg

Again, SE is better.

this to me is just unneccessary, but it's nothing to get worked up over.
the orginal spare set worked fine for me and imparted a feeling that this guy Ben was someone leading a very spartan, almost monastic existence.
the added nonesense in the SE shot looks cooler and more palatial...but whatever.
again it doesn't materially affect the forward pace of the film


SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/mos4new.jpg

Original:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/mos4old.jpg

Again, there's not enough here that destroys that shot, as you say. The SE looks much better, and the rhonto in the background doesn't draw your attention away, unless you have the shortest attention span in the world.

i have the biggest problems with the SEs in regards to many of the Mos Eisly sequences.
i actually do find a moving, yowling 40 foot cool looking dinosaur in the background of the shot to be an unneccessary distraction.
if it had been there all along and was taking out for the same reason i just gave, i would most likely cry foul as well.
i am one of many fans that is old enough to draw from many many memories of theatrical exhibitions of these films and this is a distraction to the recreation of the threatrical experience that is the reason i have spent so much on HT gear and film on various media.
that said- what does having the Ronto in that particular shot add to the shot?
something cool to look at?
spice for the set dressing?

the thing is- a good artist is one who knows which details are unnecessary and would benefit the whole by being subverted and which would benefit the whole by being embellished.
embellishing the background in this case does not enhance the narrative function of the scene/shot.
sorry.
we just have to strongly disagree here.



SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/crawlnew.jpg

Original:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/crawlold.jpg

Ditto!!!

the new shot is beautiful and doesn't really bother me.
the focus/purpose of the shot is unchanged- to show the sandcrawler is leaving one area and heading for another
i have absolutely no problem with it.


SE version:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/takeoff.jpg

Original:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/takeold.jpg

Again, the SE version doesn't hurt the original, and it looks a whole lot better.

i miss the planet.
i thought it was a very unique, very iconic image. the new cgi fighter move wonderfully, but i wish they had keep that wonderfully oppressive image of the planet.
a minor annoyance though.
i could also make the argument that the planet in that position represented clearly an obstacle- it is a visual indication of how blocked the base is and what an obstacle it is that the death star will have to negotiate before it can destroy the base.
i'm very surprised that he wouldn't have included it in the shot .

Last one!

SE:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/xw3.jpg

Original:
http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/tailold7.jpg

Again, the scene is basically the same. Now it only looks a whole lot better. I believe this is Lucas' intention, at least on most of the changes. To update the look without hurting the films. The only problem with that is he made some stupid changes along the way that did hurt those particular scenes.

again, not a big problem for me here.
in fact it's really no problem for me.
the vibrancy and vividness of the new cgi is nice to look at and -again- does not detract or throw off from what the original intent of the shot was.
the purpose of the original was to present a kinetic shot of the tie fighter engaging the x-wing.
this to me represents a very benign alteration.
and there are many more just like this that i am perfectly fine with.

i just can't warm up to alterations that affect and butcher musical cues, and elaborate and unnecessary details that compete for attention with the main focus of a scene or slag the kinetic pace of the film.

RockStrongo
07-20-04, 09:32 AM
I can breathe easier now that I know many of you are satisfied with the changes in the SE. Whew!

I still feel remorse though for those of you who love the originals and hate the SEs. There will be a small hole in my cinematic heart for all of you.

What a load of crap! They are damn movies. -rolleyes-

bboisvert
07-20-04, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by RockStrongo
What a load of crap! They are damn movies. -rolleyes-

And this is a Internet discussion board to talk about damn movies. What's your point?

Josh H
07-20-04, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by bboisvert
And this is a Internet discussion board to talk about damn movies. What's your point?

Actually, to be technical, this is a discussion board to talk about DVDs. Movie discussions belong in Movie Talk. This board is for talking about specs, release dates, re-releases, sales figures and other things specific to DVDs rather than films.

But I have no idea what his point was. :D

Mike Lowrey
07-20-04, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
Actually, to be technical, this is a discussion board to talk about DVDs. Movie discussions belong in Movie Talk. This board is for talking about specs, release dates, re-releases, sales figures and other things specific to DVDs rather than films.

Yes, and we're talking about what changes, if any, are going to be on this DVD release, hence the location in DVD Talk

Since we haven't seen these versions yet, how can this discussion be conducted in Movie Talk.

Josh H
07-20-04, 01:23 PM
I was just being a smart ass, not saying there was anything wrong with this discussion. :D

Terrell
07-20-04, 06:41 PM
i miss the planet.

Well, since we're basically going around in circles, and haven't found much common ground, I'll just comment on this.

The planet is still there. It's been pushed back a bit and clouds have been added to the sky, but it's there. I believe when the ships fly up, the camera pans upwards a bit, and you can see more of the planet. Just thought I'd throw that out.

flyboy
07-20-04, 07:18 PM
Well I just hope Jar Jar gets put in the OT!

and no the planet is no longer there...just watched the vhs tape of the se

Terrell
07-20-04, 09:19 PM
You have to have the widescreen VHS tape to see the planet. It's not visible in the pan & scam version. The planet is there in the upper right hand corner. It's been pushed back and it doesn't come as far down in the shot as it does in the original. It's behind the clouds.

ckolchak
07-20-04, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
It's been pushed back and it doesn't come as far down in the shot as it does in the original. It's behind the clouds.

almost as if Goerge looked at the original version of the shot and was ashamed at how radical it looked compositionally.

this huge orange wedge lording over this muted jungle backdrop.
taking it out of context now and just comparing the two pics, yes the SE is the prettier of the two, but its pretty in a sort of bland and vapid way- there are plenty of shots in the prequels that look almost exactly like that (Naboos pillowy clouds and lush vegitation) and this shot looks like it could have been culled from any of those same sequences.
in a way, yes, that fulfills Lucas's mission statement to try to resurface the OT to match the PT-
But- you could also argue that he is losing a lot of scope with that new shot as well.
especially with the way that sequence appears to have been color timed-
everything is prettier- but safely homogenized and pastueurized.

little of the virve left of the young, experimental artist.

Naboo and Yavin are seemingly interchangeable visual locations now (with each new move, the universe in these films contracts a little more).
i'll be surprised (actually not) if he wouldn't think to go in and re-color time the Yavin exteriors to give at least some greater distinction from Naboo.




like i said, compositionally, that old shot is radical- especially try to place that in the context of when the film first came out-
where could anyone remember having seen something like that before- its almost right up there with the Star Destroyer opening.

shame to see it lost forever on decaying, 240-400 lines of resolution, formats.

flyboy
07-20-04, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
You have to have the widescreen VHS tape to see the planet. It's not visible in the pan & scam version. The planet is there in the upper right hand corner. It's been pushed back and it doesn't come as far down in the shot as it does in the original. It's behind the clouds.

OMG...I WOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THIS BOARD IF I HAD ANY FOOLSCREEN MOVIES (DVD OR VHS) THAT WERE MADE AFTER 1955!! I must be blind as I saw no planet on the widescreen versions...if that little bit of light pink is a planet..well it sure does not look like one.

tenaciousdave
07-20-04, 11:01 PM
They changed Star Wars?

Terrell
07-21-04, 01:00 AM
especially with the way that sequence appears to have been color timed-

Well, the SEs have a slighty, yet inaccurate blue tinge to the entire film. From what I've seen of the new DVD trailer, that's been corrected.

But- you could also argue that he is losing a lot of scope with that new shot as well.

Yes, and many other redone shots add more scope than what was originally there. It's a tit for that thing. For example, the newly recomposed and redone shot as the fleet passes the red planet, gives the shot a bigger scope than the original shot.

like i said, compositionally, that old shot is radical- especially try to place that in the context of when the film first came out-
where could anyone remember having seen something like that before- its almost right up there with the Star Destroyer opening.

ckolchak, let's not start with the hyperbole. That shot is not all that radical. It's a simple shot. Effective, yes I'd say the original shot is effective. But the new shot is just as effective, and the redone takeoff is far more effective in the SE. The Star Destroyer opening is far more radical.

I must be blind as I saw no planet on the widescreen versions

Then you just missed it. The fleet flies right by it in the next shot.

Spiky
07-21-04, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
I don't agree at all. They are the same films. One is just tweaked. The tone and character of the SEs are the same as the originals. They still look, sound, and feel like the original Star Wars films.
Hey, man. Pass some of that around! Whatever it is that makes you say they are different and the same in the same thread must be pretty decent. Or are you just incapable of staying on track? Lucas certainly is, look at the incontinuity of Ep 1. I'd LOVE to see an SE version of this with new scenes and dialog. Maybe put it into the Star Wars universe instead of the kiddy-happy-land universe in which it currently resides.

In the SE, and more in the SE SE, there are minor alterations which are actually useful, there are new scenes, there are things added, deleted, actors changed, character traits changed, the whole style of Mos Eisley is changed, etc. We'll have to wait and see if the SE SE is much different from the SE, but you must admit this is getting over the top. Maybe he should've just remade the entire trilogy with entirely new films and new actors. Or just started over with a new tale and dropped this one.

emhello
07-21-04, 04:33 PM
Is it true that Jar Jar has a cameo in the new SE version of ROTJ?

Mike Lowrey
07-21-04, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by flyboy
OMG...I WOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THIS BOARD IF I HAD ANY FOOLSCREEN MOVIES (DVD OR VHS) THAT WERE MADE AFTER 1955!! I must be blind as I saw no planet on the widescreen versions...if that little bit of light pink is a planet..well it sure does not look like one.

Oh Jesus Christ! If that "pink" think isn't a planet, then WHAT is it? This is the most ridiculous interpretation of that scene I've ever heard.

"Uh, I don't see a planet..." :rolleyes:

Sorry to get a little personal, but OPEN YOUR EYES!

The sky in the scene has been digitally altered to give it a more atmospheric look. Therefore the planet, as Terrell has said, has been pushed back in the scene. Being that shot is a daytime scene, it's a wonder you could see it anyway, but since Yavin is a big gas giant, it could possibly show through the daytime sky.

Rivero
07-21-04, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by emhello
Is it true that Jar Jar has a cameo in the new SE version of ROTJ?

Unfortunately, yes.

ckolchak
07-21-04, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Terrell



Yes, and many other redone shots add more scope than what was originally there. It's a tit for that thing. For example, the newly recomposed and redone shot as the fleet passes the red planet, gives the shot a bigger scope than the original shot.

by scope, i meant that each location (and, actually, each film) has it's own unique, idiosyncratic flavor.
take the first two films in their original theatrical versions
what were the main sets/locations
- Tatooine
- Death Star interior
- Yavin
- Hoth
- Dogobah
- cloud city

each of these places is physically unique, has a predominant color scheme that is unique (although both Cloud city and Hoth share a tendency towards whites), and create the impression of scope thru the nature of how varied they are.
the universe begins to contract with Jedi
(we are back to tatooine, a death Star, Dagobah, and the only new setting is a national park *yawn* not very exotic)-
in the prequels we get Courescant and Naboo, but we also return to Tatooine (twice).
subverting the looming planet further further robs Yavin of its character
and in its place we get the pretty Naboo background plate #5.
disappointing.


ckolchak, let's not start with the hyperbole. That shot is not all that radical. It's a simple shot. Effective, yes I'd say the original shot is effective. But the new shot is just as effective, and the redone takeoff is far more effective in the SE. The Star Destroyer opening is far more radical.

http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/takeold.jpg

radical in the sense that
1) the planet occupies around 10% of the screen real estate, and yet thru the choice of hue and the intensity of that hue, and it's placement within the frame, it becomes very oppressive.
the urgency of the thin verticle of the lookout breaking up this dynamic of almost two horizontal planes perfectly gets across the situation compositionally
( Horizontal planes are used in compositions to indicate a feeling of repose or calm, verticles impart a strength, more dynamacism, etc.)
i'm not a science whiz, but i'm sure having something with that large a mass that close, would make most of the activity just about impossible, and from a "let's try to be a little more realistic" standpoint, it was probably smart to subvert it- but this is pure fantasy.

i feel like i'm in the twilight zone with this guy.
on the one hand he labors to integrate superflous and distracting detail into shots that should be pure and not cluttered so that the subtle information they convey is not inhibited, and yet in a basic establishing shot he actively subverts an iconic and unique element in favor of something more common and bland (but pretty).
in the context of the entire series now, the relatively clear, cloudless atmosphere of Yavin is more unique.
even in the Tatooine scenes he's gone in and brightented it up with fluffy Bob Ross clouds.



Then you just missed it. The fleet flies right by it in the next shot.

nice shot, but not the same as getting hit with that oppressive image of the planet in the establishing shot of the fighters taking off.

Mike Lowrey
07-21-04, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by ckolchak

http://home.earthlink.net/~treadwell_jay/starwars/pix/takeold.jpg

radical in the sense that
1) the planet occupies around 10% of the screen real estate, and yet thru the choice of hue and the intensity of that hue, and it's informal compsotion within the frame, it becomes very oppressive.
i'm not a science whiz, but i'm sure having something with that large a mass that close, would make most of the activity just about impossible, and from a "let's try to be a little more realistic" standpoint, it was probably smart to move it- but this is pure fantasy.

i feel like i'm in the twilight zone with this guy.
on the one hand he labors to integrate superflous and distracting detail into a shots that should be pure and clean so that the subtle information they convey is not inhibited, and yet in a basic establishing shot he actively subverts an iconic and unique element in favor of something more common and bland (but pretty).
the relatively clear, cloudless atmosphere of Yavin is unique.
even in the Tatooine scenes he's he's brightented it up with fluffy Bob Ross clouds.

whatever.
skim milk is still sold in the same section as whole milk so its still qualitativly the same.


Umm, in English dude. I can't make heads or tails of your cinematography mumbo jumbo.

ckolchak
07-21-04, 07:19 PM
sorry Mike.
i have mediocre writing skills.
what words are giving you trouble?

hue = color
intensity = the vividness of that color
composition = how the various elements are placed within an image, their location size, etc

bboisvert
07-21-04, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Mike Lowrey
Umm, in English dude. I can't make heads or tails of your cinematography mumbo jumbo.

Nice. :rolleyes:

Who the hell pissed in your coffee today?


By the way, telling someone to "OPEN YOUR EYES!" in a thread that started because *you* didn't notice changes in the SE is beyond ironic.

Terrell
07-21-04, 09:10 PM
Is it true that Jar Jar has a cameo in the new SE version of ROTJ?

Um, no! Jar Jar is not in the new cut of ROTJ. That was a rumor that was spread around. Unfortnately, a lot of rumors get passed around, and for some reason there are always people that believe whatever they read on the internet.

Hey, man. Pass some of that around! Whatever it is that makes you say they are different and the same in the same thread must be pretty decent.

:rolleyes: Please, spare me the AICN talkbacks lingo. Try reading next time. There are differences amongst the changes, but the tone and feel of the films are still Star Wars thru and thru. You think otherwise and don't like the changes, don't buy the DVD.

but you must admit this is getting over the top.

I don't admit anything. I've not seen the DVDs.

Josh-da-man
07-21-04, 11:58 PM
While we're on the subject of the planet, that planet also plays a VERY important in the end of the movie, so there should be a strong visual reference to it.

About the planet... presumably it's a gas giant like Jupiter. Depending on the size of the plant, and the moon's distance from it, the plant would probably appear about the same size as a dinner plate held an arm's length away from your line of sight.

Our moon is a little over 2,000 miles in diameter, and a little under a quarter of a million miles away. You can easily cover it up with your finger at arm's length, yet it would appear much larger in a similar image.

That said, the planet's fiery color, and the oppressive shape looming into the frame, help to establish a sense of doom and urgency.

chanster
07-22-04, 12:39 AM
I wonder if they will put back in the violence in Star Wars.

http://www.dvdfile.com/software/cut_list/index_2.html#Star%20Wars%20Special%20Edition

Special Editions excised that too.

Terrell
07-22-04, 02:50 AM
I wonder if they will put back in the violence in Star Wars.

I believe they cut the bursting flames only on human characters. I believe the violence is still there on the storm troopers. I'll have to go back and look.

RockStrongo
07-22-04, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by bboisvert
And this is a Internet discussion board to talk about damn movies. What's your point?

My point is that cholchak being able to 'live with' certain changes doesn't mean squat.

I started reading this thread to see what was changed in the new DVD! Not hear people complaining about the SE. I am sure there are numerous other posts where you can debate that.

It has turned into a another rant where Star Wars fanboys complain about Lucas changes in the SE while they stand on a ledge of a 10 story building.

chanster
07-22-04, 09:17 AM
I started reading this thread to see what was changed in the new DVD! Not hear people complaining about the SE.

Considering that the SEs are the blueprint for these new DVD's, I think discussion about the SE's is warranted.

RockStrongo
07-22-04, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by chanster
Considering that the SEs are the blueprint for these new DVD's, I think discussion about the SE's is warranted.

So, because they are the blue print, debating the differences between the SE and original trilogy is warranted?

If so, then the thread name should be changed.

Maybe something like... "More whining about Star Wars SE changes"?? ;)

chanster
07-22-04, 09:48 AM
I see plenty of intelligent discussion about the films - except for your comments about whining.

El-Kabong
07-22-04, 10:02 AM
star wras is for sissys. it has gay robots that will give you teh gay!

RockStrongo
07-22-04, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by chanster
I see plenty of intelligent discussion about the films - except for your comments about whining.

Its just difficult. I use this site for information. When I see a thread about the Star Wars DVD changes, that is what I want to read about.

Instead, i have to wade through numerous posts about likes/dislikes/Lucas bashing. There are plenty of threads in the Movie discussion forum to debate "intelligent discussion about the films".

I just do not think they should be in the DVD talk thread.

And, yes, fanboy whining is present throughout this thread.

Rivero
07-22-04, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by chanster
I wonder if they will put back in the violence in Star Wars.

I doubt it, Lucas is thinking of his children nowadays. He'll probably digitally edit out the blood from the arm of that guy Obi-Wan slices in the cantina.

Josh H
07-22-04, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Rivero
I doubt it, Lucas is thinking of his children nowadays. He'll probably digitally edit out the blood from the arm of that guy Obi-Wan slices in the cantina.

The reason for that, if it is edited out, would be justified by the fact that lightsabers cauterize wounds instantly which makes perfect sense.

Playitagainsam
07-22-04, 12:17 PM
No matter what Lucas does, there'll be someone to say "it's a good idea!", even if it isn't!

mzupeman2
07-22-04, 12:33 PM
You know, you can complain all you want about the Greedo scene and whatnot, as it changes the scene and the implied happenings that originally occurred in that scene. Stuff like that you can nitpick, there's reason for it if you're a huge huge fan. But all this complaining about all the 'restoration' and the new and improved 'look' of a lot of those Star Wars films... is just rediculous. Argue it all you want, the more you argue against it, the more you're going to just prove me right. I mean, Star Wars is supposed to be this huge elaborate universe 'A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away'. Back then budget and technology wouldn't allow for Lucas to make the world he wanted, when now he can. Who cares if there's stuff added in the background or scenery to make it look better, a lot of you 'dvd aficionados' are like little children fighting over who accidentally got a bigger piece of cake than the other one. Why is it every time a Star Wars thread pops up, all these sissy fan boys have to come on here and complain and moan about every little tiny technical change made to these films that does nothing but enhance the film and the way it was originally meant to be. I've ACTUALLY seen people complain on the internet of the fixing of teh transparency that you can see through the ships cockpits on the battle of Hoth. Really die hard people really picking everything apart. 'I grew up with this and I loved it the way it was' blah blah blah. Well guess what people, life is full of changes, and some of them we like, and some of them we don't. If you're not capable of handling some changes to a film, then I'd really hate to see how you handle SERIOUS issues in your life. Star Wars has been changed, and most of the changes has been for the better.... get over it. Everybody has heard every single side of the fanboy vs. the average movie-goer a ZILLION times on this forum, enough is enough. Talk about the DVD release already, this is not movie discussion!

groundhog
07-22-04, 12:47 PM
I just recently responded to a thread about directors cuts, and this is very similar. I can't say that I agree with simply saying "life is full of changes" deal with it attitude. I think directors cuts and changing film for the better is ok, but I also want to be given a choice. I do want to see the films as originally shown on the big screen, the films that I stood in line all day to see as an 8 year old boy. If you view film as an art form, I want to see the art in its original form. I don't want to see High Noon or Out Of The Past in color and I don't want to see Monet with things added in the backgrounds and just chalk it up to "things change." I think it would be pretty sad for future generations not to see films the way they were presented on the big screen, directors intentions or not.

mzupeman2
07-22-04, 12:55 PM
Well the point is, it's not only been discussed to death on THIS forum, but all over the internet. There's no side of the argument that anybody could possibly state, that hasn't already been said. This is the wrong forum for doing whining and complaining. So I don't think it's too far off to say 'life is full of changes, just deal with it', when it's being discussed in the wrong forum... EVERY time a star wars topic pops up. I'm surprised this doesn't get locked already.

groundhog
07-22-04, 02:23 PM
I do somewhat agree with you that there are a lot of passionate and overly passionate about the changes being made. I am sure everything has been said before, for that matter most everything in these forums is somewhere else in some form. It is just a matter of what forums people frequent. Maybe their opinions shoudl be put in a thread titled DO YOU AGREE WITH THE CHANGES. I see your point if you visited this thread wanting info on changes and then you get the critics, but then you used this forum to defend the changes being made and should be in the "DO YOU AGREE" with everyone else. I wouldn't even have written but I like having the option of viewing the original films.

RockStrongo
07-22-04, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by groundhog
I do somewhat agree with you that there are a lot of passionate and overly passionate about the changes being made. I am sure everything has been said before, for that matter most everything in these forums is somewhere else in some form. It is just a matter of what forums people frequent. Maybe their opinions shoudl be put in a thread titled DO YOU AGREE WITH THE CHANGES. I see your point if you visited this thread wanting info on changes and then you get the critics, but then you used this forum to defend the changes being made and should be in the "DO YOU AGREE" with everyone else. I wouldn't even have written but I like having the option of viewing the original films.

Thank you! Someone agrees with me. :)

I wanted to read about the DVD changes in this thread, but there is almost no info about that specifically in this thread. :(

Alot of us get frustrated with people arguing about the content when we want information! This thread was titled 'Star Wars DVD changes?'.

I do not mind friendly debating or discussion, but the constant fanboy lucas bashing gets old in THESE threads. Save it for the movie forums and proper threads.

Numes
07-26-04, 11:54 AM
Is there any place that confirms the differences? I read on DVD File that some of the Star Wars DVD's were circulating at the Comicon on Saturday (7-24-04). Anyone have more information?

Terrell
07-26-04, 12:08 PM
No matter what Lucas does, there'll be someone to say "it's a good idea!", even if it isn't!

And there will always be those that whine like babies over any and every change, even good ones.

GuessWho
07-26-04, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Numes
Is there any place that confirms the differences? I read on DVD File that some of the Star Wars DVD's were circulating at the Comicon on Saturday (7-24-04). Anyone have more information? The "Revenge of the Sith" it is! thread in the 'movie talk' section of this site has plenty of posted screenshots from the dvds

Terrell
07-26-04, 12:15 PM
Anyone have more information?

All we know at this point are the changes in ROTJ, and one change in ESB. I've seen the DVD rip of ROTJ in it's entirety. The changes are;

Return of the Jedi:

- lightsabers redone
- shadows redone
- Rancor scene redone, with matte lines removed
- Digital compositing on a number of shots(matte lines removed)
- Restoration and remastering of the transfer by Lowry Digital
- A brand new, rebuilt , remastered, 448 kbps DD-EX soundtrack
- Han, Luke, and Chewy on the skiff have had matte lines removed
- Hayden replaces Shaw in the ghost scene
- Naboo celebration added to end of ROTJ

Empire Strikes Back:

- Ian McDiarmid replaces the emperor in the original

That's about it at this point.

Playitagainsam
07-26-04, 12:18 PM
Well, from the bootleg that's circulating all over the internet, it's clear Hayden Christiansen has replaced Sebastian Shaw as Anakin at the very end of the film... Shaw remains (without eyebrows, though) during his death scene, on the Death Star...

Terrell
07-26-04, 12:24 PM
can anyone confirm that this was also the case during his death scene, on the Death Star?

Shaw is still in the death scene!

Artman
07-26-04, 12:25 PM
From the pics I've seen (i don't have the DVD rip) Shaw is still in the unmasking scene. They've erased his eyebrows and changed his eyecolor I believe.

edit: or you can just look at the pic above. :) You guys are fast!

Oh yeah there's also a new line - "Wesa free!" spoken by everyone's fav bugged eye gungan. Or maybe it's just any old gungan, they're all the same...

Terrell
07-26-04, 12:31 PM
Sorry the screen is dark. Contrast on these media players is usually set pretty low.

Terrell
07-26-04, 12:33 PM
Oh yeah there's also a new line - "Wesa free!" spoken by everyone's fav bugged eye gungan.

Yeah, but that's not even worth mentioning. It's in the Naboo celebration scene, but it's so faint, even with the volume turned up loud, you can hardly hear. About the only way I can hear it is if I turn the speakers up and stick my ear to the speaker. all you can really hear is the loud cheering of people on Naboo.

Kal-El
07-26-04, 12:44 PM
So are these screencaps really representative of the video quality? How about Empire? How come no screencaps of that yet?

ckolchak
07-26-04, 01:11 PM
there is a cap flaoting around of Vader before the Emperor (a long shot/profile) along with text of the revised dialouge in that scene which is about on par with the unneccessary/idiotic change from
"bring my shuttle" to the verbose and inelegant "alert my star Destroyer..."

Rivero
07-26-04, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Artman

Oh yeah there's also a new line - "Wesa free!" spoken by everyone's fav bugged eye gungan.

Please God, no. No.

Obey The D
07-26-04, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Rivero
Please God, no. No.

I have to say that I'm not to thrilled about it either, but why would it bother you? I thought you are refusing to purchase these anyway. ;)

Chrisedge
07-26-04, 04:22 PM
So I take it, no one has seen "A New Hope" to verify any changes to that movie?

kajs
07-26-04, 05:13 PM
Here's something I posted at the HTF of a comparison of a screenshot I took (on top) compared to one of the new ones circulating:
http://www.artanisknarf.com/3po.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/dukeirot/ep3/dvd-trilogy/rotj-remaster5.png

Terrell
07-26-04, 05:25 PM
Please God, no. No.

I guess that's the last straw now!

but why would it bother you

Why would it bother anyone period! It's so faint, you have to be intently listening for it in order to hear it. It's not like Jar-Jar is standing in the middle of the screen shouting "Weesa free". It's a beautfiful shot of a massive crowd in Naboo cheering, just like the other shots.

Artman
07-26-04, 10:25 PM
Here's a question - will the 20th Century Fox fanfare be updated for ANH? Even though they had the current logo for the SE, it was still the old-school fanfare. I'm hoping they give us the crystal clear version to match the rest of the series.

Minor point to be sure, but I think one of the few things that hasn't been determined yet...

The opening shot Tatooine matte painting looks a little dull as well. It could be brightened up a bit, of course maybe the restoration alone will take care of that...

Terrell
07-26-04, 10:27 PM
Even though they had the current logo for the SE, it was still the old-school fanfare.

In my experience, the 20th Century Fox fanfare has never been as clean or loud as the films.

Deadman31
07-26-04, 11:44 PM
They should just digitally alter everyone's voice so that they all sound like the Swedish Chef. Now that would be something!

Kal-El
07-27-04, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by ckolchak
there is a cap flaoting around of Vader before the Emperor (a long shot/profile) along with text of the revised dialouge in that scene which is about on par with the unneccessary/idiotic change from
"bring my shuttle" to the verbose and inelegant "alert my star Destroyer..."

Is this the one?

audio clip (http://www.starwars-union.de/download/news/20040726tesbdvd_emperorvader.mp3?PHPSESSID=6f3a21cbd2e1cd3e3e94d5737a1f06ce)

It has been changed if this clip is true. Maybe a spoiler for Episode 3 too. I have to say I don't like it, even if it kinda ties up some loose ends. I think it's too dumbing down for me.

Terrell
07-27-04, 04:33 AM
The Han/Greedo scene has been fixed so that it looks a lot better, basically the same as the clip that was making the rounds a while back. But still not as good as restoring the scene would be. Lucas is not going to budge on this one guy's, unfortunately. He's playing politically correct!

Eplicon
07-27-04, 04:36 AM
The new dialogue makes the Luke/Vader confrontation scene at the end redundant. (I guess Anakin likes parroting whatever Palpatine tells him, like he did in AOTC.) It also seems to change the tone of the original, when Vader seemed to know the existence of Luke ("Yes, my master" he says meekly when told of Luke Skywalker, as if he were trying to hide it all along for his own agenda.) The new dialogue makes Vader seem more surprised at the revelation.

At least James Earl Jones still sounds like Vader after all these years!

Terrell
07-27-04, 04:38 AM
Well, I think Vader is being coy. Then again, I always felt Vader was being coy with Palpatine.

Terrell
07-27-04, 04:42 AM
Guys, these images are at imageshack.us! Unfortunately, it's a public site. Someone over at HTF posted the pics over there on a public image hosting site as well, and some asswipe played a trick changed one of the links to a disgusting pic of some guy spreading his backside.

All of these pictures are safe for now, but if this happens with these pics, there coming down until someone can offer a private pic site that can't be manipulated.

Kal-El
07-27-04, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Eplicon
The new dialogue makes the Luke/Vader confrontation scene at the end redundant.

I didn't even think of that. But you're right. Knowing what we do now, it does seem repetitive. However for someone who's never seen Empire and starts at Star Wars and not Menace, I think the whopper still has punch despite this altered dialogue.

It also seems to change the tone of the original, when Vader seemed to know the existence of Luke ("Yes, my master" he says meekly when told of Luke Skywalker, as if he were trying to hide it all along for his own agenda.) The new dialogue makes Vader seem more surprised at the revelation.

At least James Earl Jones still sounds like Vader after all these years!

I always thought it was more of denial, that he was trying to forget that he had a life before. That's the Ep3 spoiler I was talking about. So I guess Anakin doesn't know he has kids or that he thinks they died with Padme

Amen on JEJ's voice.

Terrell
07-27-04, 04:53 AM
I actually love the way Ian reads the lines. I also love the fact that for the extra line of dialogue, they were able to match Vader's almost flawlessly. Great work.

Rivero
07-27-04, 08:22 AM
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/2666/haydenvader.jpg

Is it me or does it look like they changed the suit to fit Hayden's not quite as tall stature and short arms? LOL

cactusoly
07-27-04, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Terrell
I actually love the way Ian reads the lines. I also love the fact that for the extra line of dialogue, they were able to match Vader's almost flawlessly. Great work.

be careful... if you say anything good about the new editions you just might get flamed.

candyrocket786
07-27-04, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Rivero
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/2666/haydenvader.jpg

Is it me or does it look like they changed the suit to fit Hayden's not quite as tall stature and short arms? LOL

He needs to "juice up" those arms.

El-Kabong
07-27-04, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Rivero
Please God, no. No.

And now I sit back and laugh long and hard. This is clearly Lucas says "I dont care what the hell you guys think - it's my movie, I'll do what I want" and giving basher camp a big gungan middle finger.

Classic stuff.

Lara Means
07-27-04, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Rivero
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/2666/haydenvader.jpg

Is it me or does it look like they changed the suit to fit Hayden's not quite as tall stature and short arms? LOL


If this were a video, I wouldve been expecting Triumph the Insult Comic Dog to show up beside Vader and tell him his parents just arrived to pick him up.

digitalfreaknyc
07-27-04, 11:14 AM
http://img62.exs.cx/img62/7351/Vade...eFromEp3Doc.jpg

I don't understand. you can't see vaders hands in any of the pics i've seen on the net. How do we know they're shackled???

bboisvert
07-27-04, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Kal-El
So I guess Anakin doesn't know he has kids or that he thinks they died with Padme

I don't understand how this new dialog fits in with the beginning of Empire. It starts off with Vader sending probe droids all over the galaxy to find this one guy. "The rebels are there... and I'm sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system!"

Vader is obsessed with finding this young rebel (with the last name Skywalker). The same guy he was chasing at the end of ANH and noticed "The Force is strong with this one".


We're now supposed to believe that when told that he is the son of Anakin, Vader's reaction is "How is this possible?" Or is he lying to Palp there?

Maybe Episode III will tie this all together and have it make more sense... but as it is now, I don't understand the change.

Kicker_of_Elves
07-27-04, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by digitalfreaknyc
I don't understand. you can't see vaders hands in any of the pics i've seen on the net. How do we know they're shackled???

http://img62.exs.cx/img62/7351/VaderAndPalpatineFromEp3Doc.jpg

Can you see it in that one? It's right next to his shoulder.

digitalfreaknyc
07-27-04, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by kicker_of_elves
http://img62.exs.cx/img62/7351/VaderAndPalpatineFromEp3Doc.jpg

Can you see it in that one? It's right next to his shoulder.

I see the emporer next to him. I just don't see hands shackled. Am I crazy? lol

Kal-El
07-27-04, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by digitalfreaknyc
I see the emporer next to him. I just don't see hands shackled. Am I crazy? lol

It's the the left of Vader's head if you're facing him. You can clearly see his wrist and the binding.

digitalfreaknyc
07-27-04, 11:39 AM
Hmmm...ok. Couldn't make out what that was. I guess I'm just screwed up because it looks too small to be Vader's hand...but then again, the whole thing is too small.

Plus you can't see the arm outstretched and it doesn't look like his body is pulled out. The perspective is just weird.

GuessWho
07-27-04, 11:55 AM
NO SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really didn't need to know yet that there's some sort of handcuffed/prisoner scene

I successfully avoided the pics, but now I just read too much.

:mad:

GuessWho
07-27-04, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by bboisvert
I don't understand how this new dialog fits in with the beginning of Empire. It starts off with Vader sending probe droids all over the galaxy to find this one guy. "The rebels are there... and I'm sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system!"

Vader is obsessed with finding this young rebel (with the last name Skywalker). The same guy he was chasing at the end of ANH and noticed "The Force is strong with this one". Perhaps the Hoth dialogue will change as well. It doesn't make sense that Vader would know Skywalker's name anyway--couldve been anyone in that XWing.

So--if all changes are made, Emperor's hologram message will be first time Vader learns the "rebel who shot the death star" is a Skywalker at all

El-Kabong
07-27-04, 12:09 PM
Gee, thanks for the spoilers. Yeah, I really wanted to know all that stuff.

Terrell
07-27-04, 12:27 PM
Gee, thanks for the spoilers. Yeah, I really wanted to know all that stuff

Well don't blame me! I clearly labeled the two Episode III pics spoilers. If you clicked on them, that's your fault, not mine.

As for Hayden, he will appear 6'7" in the film. They're using force perspect as well as boots and a helmet that add another 2-3 inches of height.

bboisvert
07-27-04, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by GuessWho
Perhaps the Hoth dialogue will change as well. It doesn't make sense that Vader would know Skywalker's name anyway--couldve been anyone in that XWing.

They'd have to change the opening crawl and that dialog, both of which make it clear that he's out looking for Skywalker. I suppose they could make those changes, but I personally don't care for it... I much prefer the obsessed Vader, sending "thousands" of probe droids out, scouring the galaxy looking for his son. To make it seem like Vader doesn't find out about him until after the asteroid scene... nope, sir, I don't like it.

(And, given that about 3 years have passed between ANH and ESB, I just always figured that Vader found out about Skywalker via interrogation, espionage, etc.)

Again, maybe Ep III will have this all make sense (that Anakin has always known about Luke, but Palpatine doesn't know). ????

Terrell
07-27-04, 12:34 PM
Vader's being coy folks. Here's a comment from Lucas on this issue.

"But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies." --George Lucas

Lara Means
07-27-04, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Eplicon

At least James Earl Jones still sounds like Vader after all these years!

We don't know if the "How is that possible?" line was newly recorded or not. JEJ couldve said it for the movie long ago, but it wasnt used in the final product. The rest of Vader's line "He's just a boy...." is the same exact version as it was in the original movie.

Kal-El
07-27-04, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lara Means
We don't know if the "How is that possible?" line was newly recorded or not. JEJ couldve said it for the movie long ago, but it wasnt used in the final product. The rest of Vader's line "He's just a boy...." is the same exact version as it was in the original movie.

Why would you think that this was not new? So you don't think JEJ can still do the Vader voice? He's stated in several interviews that he's been approached to record lines for Episode III. How hard would it be to add one more sentence to that?

Lara Means
07-27-04, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Kal-El
So you don't think JEJ can still do the Vader voice? He's stated in several interviews that he's been approached to record lines for Episode III. How hard would it be to add one more sentence to that?

Oh, I KNOW he can't do the Vader voice anymore. The proof is in the added lines to Empire done in the '97 SE's. The whole new "Alert my Star Destroyer..." sounded so awful and nothing like Vader from the rest of the movie. Also, of course he was approached to do the Vader lines in Episode 3. Why the hell would they get someone else? James isnt dead yet.

Kal-El
07-27-04, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Lara Means
Also, of course he was approached to do the Vader lines in Episode 3. Why the hell would they get someone else? James isnt dead yet.

:hscratch: Isn't that what I just said? So who would you rather have do the Vader voice for Episode 3 then?

El-Kabong
07-27-04, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
Well don't blame me! I clearly labeled the two Episode III pics spoilers. If you clicked on them, that's your fault, not mine.

No - that's not it at all. It's everyone TALKING about the pics in unprotected spoilers that I'm blameing.

chanster
07-27-04, 02:25 PM
Vader's lines in the 97 SE of ESB sounded nothing like the original Vader. That was another problem I had with that stupid, unneccesary scene.

Th0r S1mpson
07-27-04, 02:49 PM
Anyone who hasn't voted yet, be sure to head on over to the Other Forum to vote for Thor Simpson and WhoGirl.

> <a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376846">DVD Talk Election thread</a>

<img src="http://www.thorsupport.com/election/working.gif" border="1" width="500" height="174">

Thor's plan to bring more fun for you and the forum can be seen <B><a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376022#post5111267">here</a></B>.

GuessWho
07-27-04, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by El-Kabong
No - that's not it at all. It's everyone TALKING about the pics in unprotected spoilers that I'm blameing.

Exactly.

I did not click on any pics, but I read in open text that Anakin is in handcuffs, which spoils an arrest/capture plotpont of some sort

GuessWho
07-27-04, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Thor Simpson
Anyone who hasn't voted yet, be sure to head on over to the Other Forum to vote for Thor Simpson and WhoGirl.

> <a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376846">DVD Talk Election thread</a>

<img src="http://www.thorsupport.com/election/working.gif" border="1" width="500" height="174">

Thor's plan to bring more fun for you and the forum can be seen <B><a href="http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376022#post5111267">here</a></B>. Interrupting unrelated threads for this make me NOT want to vote

Terrell
07-27-04, 03:40 PM
No - that's not it at all. It's everyone TALKING about the pics in unprotected spoilers that I'm blameing.

Oh, ok! Sorry for the confusion. :)

chanster
07-27-04, 03:52 PM
Talk about threadcraps.

Lara Means
07-27-04, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Kal-El
Isn't that what I just said? So who would you rather have do the Vader voice for Episode 3 then?

You asked me why I thought the "How is that possible?" line from the new Empire DVD was not a brand new recording by James Earl Jones. My response was because I feel James Earl Jones has gotten too old that he just doesn't sound EXACTLY the same has he did in the 80's. You can hear this for yourself in the added Vader lines from the Empire Special Edition. The added Empire DVD line just sounds too good to be new.

I don't want anyone else to be the voice of Vader!

Terrell
07-27-04, 04:09 PM
My response was because I feel James Earl Jones has gotten too old that he just doesn't sound EXACTLY the same has he did in the 80's.

Skywalker Sound has state of the art audio mixing equipment and soundstages. James Earl Jones can do the voice, and they can alter it slightly to make it sound like he did in 1977. So I don't foresee a problem. I don't know if the new line of dialogue on the upcoming DVDs, is a new recording or not.

Rivero
07-27-04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
As for Hayden, he will appear 6'7" in the film. They're using force perspect as well as boots and a helmet that add another 2-3 inches of height.

but will it still look like he has midget arms?

GuessWho
07-27-04, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
...that add another 2-3 inches...

Padme will be so happy

Terrell
07-27-04, 05:20 PM
but will it still look like he has midget arms?

No he won't. The pictures I've seen of him he doesn't look like he has midget arms. There was a stuntman that did much of the lightsaber work in the originals, and he wasn't nearly as big and bulky as Prowse either. But they made it work. Just wait for the film, if you even plan on seeing it, which I doubt. I don't think you're gonna like it anyway. So that will be the least of your worries. In fact, you might as well take a pass.

Padme will be so happy

:lol:

Eplicon
07-27-04, 05:25 PM
The "Alert my Star Destroyer..." line was actually a recorded (but unused) bit of dialogue from Star Wars. This was mentioned on the Star Wars site some time ago when Ben Burtt (I think) was asked that question.

I'm not that enthusasitic about the stormtroopers' voices being changed, tho, if that is to be the case. I always liked the scene in Star Wars where the stormtroopers were just b.s.'ing around like a bunch of regular guys. I mean, do they all have to be clones? What's to say that guys just didn't sign up and join the Empire? Or that cloning technology improved to make the stormtroopers a bit more diverse?

Terrell
07-27-04, 05:48 PM
I'm not that enthusasitic about the stormtroopers' voices being changed, tho, if that is to be the case.

They haven't. Only Boba's voice has been re-recorded by Temura Morrison. In fact, in the one clip I've heard, it didn't sound much different from the original voice. According to the guy that posted all these new screenshots from A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, the storm troopers voices are the same. The Wampa attack hasn't been added to ESB as was rumored. The taun-tauns look like they haven't been replaced, but he says they do look like the animation has been tweaked to make it smoother and more realistic. The detention block corridor on the Death Star has been redone. Also, Luke's scream has been taken out according to him. He is legit, and he has all of the DVD-Rs. He even posted caps of the Episode III doc, as you can see a few pages back.

http://img52.exs.cx/img52/9362/deathstarcorridor.jpg

ds6161
07-27-04, 06:12 PM
I've been ok with most of the chages so far..but changing a characters voice & changing Boba Fett's!.!.

Time to put a hit out on George where are the South Pack guys when we need them...............

Terrell
07-27-04, 06:50 PM
I've been ok with most of the chages so far..but changing a characters voice & changing Boba Fett's!.!.

I'm not saying you have to like the change, but it makes complete sense that Boba Fett would sound like his father, considering he's a clone.

Artman
07-27-04, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
In fact, in the one clip I've heard, it didn't sound much different from the original voice.

That's the thing, it sounded close enough to begin with - so why change it? And if he was that picky about Boba, why not do the stormtroopers also? All well...

Not exactly what I was hoping, but still counting the days till the DVD's hit!

I'm also curious about some of the 'mistakes' in ANH also. Ropes pulling droids, crewman's leg sticking out, eyes thru sockets, etc.. I wonder if those will be fixed? You would think so, but.. I'm not counting on it.

Terrell
07-27-04, 08:56 PM
And if he was that picky about Boba, why not do the stormtroopers also?

Because ANH takes place 2 decades after Episode III and 23 years after Episode II. By the time ANH rolls around, most of the storm troopers are no longer clones of Jango. Conscripts if you will.

That's the thing, it sounded close enough to begin with - so why change it?

The reverse is true as well. If it's not that much different, why get so upset over it. ;)

chanster
07-27-04, 09:12 PM
If it's not that much different, why get so upset over it.

Maybe because he enjoyed the way it was?

Get Me Coffee
07-27-04, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Rivero
but will it still look like he has midget arms?

The Onion has reported that arm extensions will be used on Hayden to extend his rather short arm length. On the record Hayden asked if it would be possible to extend other parts of his body. No word yet. But the force is strong with this one.

ckolchak
07-27-04, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by ds6161
I've been ok with most of the chages so far..but changing a characters voice & changing Boba Fett's!.!.

Time to put a hit out on George where are the South Pack guys when we need them...............

i just heard one of the new TM/Boba clips and i don't dig it..at all.

TM has a very unique voice and i actually thought this was one alteration i could get behind, but listening to it- his line reading is so limp and his inflection poorly concieved.

i've only heard the line "he's no good to me dead" but it has effectively lost all the icy cold meance it used to have.

very sad.


also, about the Emperor new dialouge and the Vader line "h How is that possible".
i think people, and this is not just directed at you Terell, are reading way more into it than is there-
i believe the only reason George now has Vader say "how is that possible" is so that he can bridge a couple new lines from the Emperor-
and that's it.
to me, i wouldn't be surprised if Georges reasoning went something like
"ok i can redo Ian in ESB...this'll be great! but i probably should beef up the part with another line or two at least- it would be a waste to go to all this trouble just let him redo the same old 4 short lines...let's see...how can i slightly increase his dialouge here without this scene spilling over , time-wise?"
the new lines add absolutely nothing except more talking, which to Lucas's tin ear, is always more impressive.



also- the old Emperor dialouge was not concerned so much with WHO but with WHAT.
the dialouge was intended to show that Luke was now a grave threat because he was studying to be a Jedi- and the whole point of the conversation that that must not happen- which leads directly into Vaders iconcic saga line "the force is with you young Skywalker...but you are not a jedi YET"

this new scene has totally altered the tone of this conflict here, and this change is NOT stronger.

in fact, this is fairly ass, which is par for the course i suppose by now.

Terrell
07-27-04, 10:39 PM
this new scene has totally altered the tone of this conflict here, and this change is NOT stronger.

Well, if you were talking about the Hayden change, I'd agree with you. But I don't agree with you on this change. Then again, I'll have to actually see it in the DVD with the video. But let's be honest ckolchak, you're going to think any change is ass, because it's not the original. ;)

Maybe because he enjoyed the way it was?

Some of you guys need to understand this. Lucas is trying to bridge two trilogies. Other than the Hayden change, I think he's doing a good job. I am a bit concerned about the lightsaber colors and the Hayden change. I know some of you despise the prequels and don't want there to be any links between it and the originals. But that's indeed the case. So deal with it or let it go. Harping on it is not going to change a thing. Lucas is not listening. He's not going to listen. Nearly 60,000 signatures didn't change him. He will do what he wants. We can only hope he gives us both versions so both sides will be happy.

Purists can't stand the changes. But that's no surprise. They want the originals, and only the originals. So why keep checking the threads if you're going to hate what you find. I'm not giving anyone any orders. Just trying to make some sense of this issue.

chanster
07-27-04, 10:52 PM
They want the originals, and only the originals.

I'm sorry thats just wrong.
I am interested in seeing them to see how he can connect the dots. But I would also like to see the originals on DVD format.

Artman
07-27-04, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Terrell
Some of you guys need to understand this. Lucas is trying to bridge two trilogies.

Oh I understand, really it's not a very hard concept...

I've enjoyed about 90% of the changes so far, it's just those few that nag at me, plus the remaining little mistakes I mentioned above that stand out.

It's like they're taking two steps forward and one step back...

ckolchak
07-27-04, 11:18 PM
Terrell,
putting aside the Emperor conversation for a minute-

i already said i was 'up' to hear TM voice as Boba.
it goes without saying that i would greatly prefer to have the original theatrical presentations of these- but i was still planning on picking up this set- if only to flip thru the few scenes that haven't been 'improved' yet.

i like TM's voice.
i don't like the line reading here at all, nor has the voice been given the same distinct mechanical 'color' it had before.

have you heard it yet?
a new viewer could take it for what it is, but to anyone familiar with the way it used to be- it comes up short...by a good margin.
its nice that he could have thrown the fans of the prequels an easter egg here- but the execution is quite lacking.

i've gone to pains in this thread to try to show i'm not a zealot about this alterations- even now, i still try to judge them on their individual merits and if they add or detract from what was already in place and already overwhelmingly of high quality.

Terrell
07-28-04, 12:08 AM
it goes without saying that i would greatly prefer to have the original theatrical presentations of these

As would I!

i've gone to pains in this thread to try to show i'm not a zealot about this alterations

Nor have I implied it. My comment about you not liking changes is probably accurate, considering you really only want the original theatrical cuts, correct? That statement wasn't meant to be an insult or to imply you were a zealot. Maybe my wording was a bit harsh. Apologies!

Terrell
07-28-04, 12:10 AM
Okay guys, the pictures are going bye-bye. Hope you got them all.

JONA99
07-28-04, 03:48 AM
[the new lines add absolutely nothing except more talking, which to Lucas's tin ear, is always more impressive.


I hate the new Emperor/Vader lines. I wish George would've just left 'em alone. But they add much more than just "talking."

From a storytelling point of view, now that we know the complete six-chapter arc, I suppose it makes sense that George added those lines. Since the entire saga is basically Vader's story, it's a bit of a cheat to have him learn about the existence of his son, and the identity of the pilot who blew up the Death Star, somewhere in between chapters 4 and 5. The central character's (Vader's) discovery is too vital and defining a moment to be left offscreen... from a storytelling point of view.

Of course, the opening crawl's "Obssessed with finding young Skywalker" will have to be deleted, as well as "The rebels are there, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

aam1
07-28-04, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Terrell
Lucas is trying to bridge two trilogies.

This one being billed as the Star Wars trilogy, wonder what he'll call the other one.

Rivero
07-28-04, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by JONA99

Of course, the opening crawl's "Obssessed with finding young Skywalker" will have to be deleted, as well as "The rebels are there, and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

:rolleyes:

Spiderbite
07-28-04, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Terrell


Some of you guys need to understand this. Lucas is trying to bridge two trilogies.

It's so funny. I waited for so many years for the prequels & my excitement was huge. I was even excited about the Special Editions & thought it was cool to see a new/different version with different scenes and enhanced special effects.

Had I known that having the above would cause the originals to never be released again, I would have easily hoped that the SEs & the prequels to never be made.

I will rent these new versions as a curiosity, but I will never buy them. I know that Joe Six-Pack doesn't care about the changes nor do Lucas fanboys but I just wish more people would choose to not purchase these "The Original Trilogy Did Not Exist" versions.

bboisvert
07-28-04, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Terrell
Some of you guys need to understand this. Lucas is trying to bridge two trilogies.

I think most people do understand this, but wish that Lucas had made the prequels match the original trilogy... instead of refilming stuff to do it the other way around.

All Lucas has to do at this point is another round of changes (version 4.0?) to fully tie everything together, and then release a big DVD set of all 6 in 2007 or something. And, honestly, if he also includes the original versions in that set as a bonus... everyone will be happy. I still have hope. ;)

Lara Means
07-28-04, 09:18 AM
Its obvious that Lucas is ashamed of the original trilogy. Fans who went to see Star Wars in theaters back in '77 can't even recognize these damn films anymore. And why bother making changes? Since Lucas hates the original trilogy so much, he should just remake the entire goddamn thing. Bring in a whole new cast and film the entire thing in yet another giant blue screen dome.