Interesting article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/mike_fish/07/06/steinbrenner.hof/index.html?cnn=yes) over at SI.com about whether George Steinbrenner will some day be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.The Boss turned 74 on Sunday -- July 4 -- and isn't planning to retire anytime soon. Even so, here's an interesting question to ponder: Will George Steinbrenner, one of the most revered and reviled characters in the history of sport, eventually be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame?
Steinbrenner isn't campaigning for the nod, which makes wonderful sense because in his age class -- 65 and over -- owners and executives have to be at least six months removed from the game to be considered by the Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans. And until he takes his last breath, bank on Steinbrenner lurking around as principal owner of his pride and joy, the New York Yankees.
But should a plaque of the bombastic owner, chest pompously puffed, hang in Cooperstown someday? Damn right.
The Hall of Fame is home to 23 executives/pioneers, a list that includes owners such as Tom Yawkey (Red Sox), Charlie Comiskey (White Sox), Clark Griffith (Senators) and Bill Veeck (Indians, Browns, White Sox). Among today's owners, there isn't a soul who comes close to the influence -- good or bad -- Steinbrenner has had over the game for three decades running.
Other contemporaries who you can rightly argue deserve consideration, for differing reasons, include Walter O'Malley (Dodgers), Charlie Finley (A's) and Augie Busch (Cardinals). And when it comes to front-office types, heck, no one more profoundly influenced the game than union boss Marvin Miller.
But Steinbrenner, who pulled together a group of investors to buy the Yankees from CBS in 1973 for $10 million, is the instantly recognizable name among a growing cast of corporate execs. That is, unless you count conflicted commissioner Bud Selig, absentee owner of the Milwaukee Brewers.
"One of criteria or rules of thumb that baseball writers talk about using is, can you talk about the history of baseball without mentioning this guy?" offers John Odell, the Baseball Hall of Fame's curator of history and research. "And it would seem very hard to talk about the history of baseball for the past 25 years or so and not mention George Steinbrenner. Like him or dislike him, but he has certainly influenced and impacted the game. If you want to talk about baseball from the management side of things and talk about free agents, you can't not talk about George Steinbrenner. And free agency is what is driving the game today."
We're not talking sainthood for Steinbrenner, though. Steinbrenner has been cast as a baseball version of Darth Vader, and perhaps rightly so. He has feuded with rival owners and clubs (see: Red Sox CEO Larry Lucchino) and dug into his filthy-rich war chest to buy up the game's best players. And lest we forget, the Boss is a convicted felon (illegal contributions to Richard Nixon's 1972 presidential campaign) and twice suspended from the game (the felony charge and in 1990 for paying gambler Howard Spira $40,000 to dig up dirt on Yankees outfielder Dave Winfield).
All that said, his teams win big. And the Yankees are arguably the most attractive name in sports, the baseball franchise that gets the juices flowing, love 'em or hate 'em. The team that writes headlines, puts fannies in the seats on the road and helps carry the game.
Steinbrenner has restored pride to the Yankees, with his club winning 10 American League pennants -- including six of the past eight -- and six World Series championships. The Yankees are on track to play before more than 7 million fans this season, which would make them the most watched team in history.
We ran the Steinbrenner for Cooperstown idea by an old foe of his, 1999 HOF inductee George Brett. A child of the West Coast, Brett was surprised to learn O'Malley, who brought the Dodgers to Los Angeles, isn't in the Hall of Fame. But given the other owners gracing the halls of Cooperstown, he'd definitely cast a vote for Steinbrenner.
That's a huge concession for Brett, who played his entire career in a Kansas City Royals uniform and has a burning hatred for anything Yankees after losing three consecutive American League Championship Series to them from 1976-78. "Even today, if the Royals win six games all year, if they're going to go 6-156, I hope they beat the Yankees six times," says Brett, Royals' vice president for baseball operations.
What separates Steinbrenner from rival owners, other than a payroll approaching $200 million, is a bully-like obsession with coming out on top. He'll do most anything to field a winner, whether throwing a goofy wad of cash at a player or extracting the head of an underling. (That said, he hasn't fired a manager since hiring Joe Torre in 1995.)
Brett caught a glimpse of Steinbrenner's intensity at a small dinner party a few years ago. Though not a close personal friend of his, Brett ended up sitting across the table from the Boss, politely trying to carry on a conversation.
"A flower arrangement was directly in our view, so we were doing the old Caddyshack routine, bending our heads back and forth around the lamp, but we were doing it around the flowers," recalls Brett, laughing at the memory. "So I got up and I moved the flower arrangement over just a little bit and we continued our conversation. And when the conversation was over, he moved the flower thing back. So then we do the Caddyshack deal again, bobbing heads, trying to talk.
"And I said, 'Why did you move the flower pot back?' And he said, 'Well, I don't want to look at you.' I said, 'What are you talking about, you don't want to look at me.' He says, 'You beat the Yankees too many times.' I said, 'George, wait a second, let me ask you a question. You guys won in '76. You guys won in '77. You guys won in '78. We won in 1980. That is one out of four. I think if anybody should have moved them back it should have been me.' And he said, 'No, you beating us one time is one time too many.'
"He was serious. And then that was it. That is the way he is. It is win at all costs."
Sounds like Hall of Fame material.So what do you think? Someday, when he is gone from baseball, should George Steinbrenner be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame?
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 11:28 AM
I think I'm gonna puke.
RoyalTea
07-07-04, 11:40 AM
yes, in an age where sports owners are more concerned about making a profit than fielding a winning team, owners like George Steinbrenner and Mark Cuban need to be recognized.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 11:45 AM
He was a huge part of the change in baseball - economically - in the 1970s and now in the 21st century. Yes, I would vote for him. HOF doesn't imply that the person was nice and well-liked.
LurkerDan
07-07-04, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
He was a huge part of the change in baseball - economically - in the 1970s and now in the 21st century. Yes, I would vote for him. HOF doesn't imply that the person was nice and well-liked. I can't believe I'm saying this,, but this is true; I'd vote for him too. :yack:
El Scorcho
07-07-04, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
He was a huge part of the change in baseball - economically - in the 1970s and now in the 21st century.
And this is a good thing?
Red Dog
07-07-04, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by El Scorcho
And this is a good thing?
Not necessarily. As I said, to be in the HOF does not automatically imply that you did good things. Let's face it, George Steinbrenner is probably the most famous owner in professional sports history. He has been as big a part of MLB as anyone over the last 30 years.
zuffy
07-07-04, 12:35 PM
Hell yeah.
Quake1028
07-07-04, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
I think I'm gonna puke.
Why does this not surprise anyone?
El Scorcho
07-07-04, 12:41 PM
The Hall of Fame in and of itself has always been a misnomer. It should have always been named the Hall of Achievement (or some other catchy name that indicates achievement over fame).
He is the most famous owner, for sure. But can anyone outside of the Bronx say that he has improved baseball? If so, just how did he improve it?
I'd just like to see people in the hall of fame that had a vested interest in improving the game as a whole and not just making his pocketbook and his team better.
Of course, this is all a utopic vision.
Canadian Bacon
07-07-04, 12:42 PM
He belongs in the Hall of Fat- hell no he's ruined baseballl, with help from Bud Selig
Red Dog
07-07-04, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by El Scorcho
The Hall of Fame in and of itself has always been a misnomer. It should have always been named the Hall of Achievement (or some other catchy name that indicates achievement over fame).
He is the most famous owner, for sure. But can anyone outside of the Bronx say that he has improved baseball? If so, just how did he improve it?
I'd just like to see people in the hall of fame that had a vested interest in improving the game as a whole and not just making his pocketbook and his team better.
Of course, this is all a utopic vision.
Well that's not what they called it, so my criteria is based on fame. Obviously, the best route to fame (that is Hall-worthy) is superior achievement. There are other owners in the Hall now. I dislike Big Stein, but I recognize that he has been one of the most famous figures in baseball in my lifetime. That earns him my vote - if I had one.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Canadian Bacon
He belongs in the Hall of Fat- hell no he's ruined baseballl, with help from Bud Selig
Yeah if you want someone who is truly ruining baseball, one can point toward Budinski.
I'm curious about the hatred for Big Stein. Are people mad at him for his spending? Blame the system, not him. Would you rather have him pocket all those profits (and get really fat) instead of putting it back into the team?
El Scorcho
07-07-04, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Well that's not what they called it, so my criteria is based on fame. Obviously, the best route to fame (that is Hall-worthy) is superior achievement. There are other owners in the Hall now. I dislike Big Stein, but I recognize that he has been one of the most famous figures in baseball in my lifetime. That earns him my vote - if I had one.
So Bill Buckner should be a HOFer too? :)
What about Mario Mendoza? He was so famous that he had a batting average threshold named after him!
Darryl Strawberry was pretty famous too.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by El Scorcho
So Bill Buckner should be a HOFer too? :)
What about Mario Mendoza? He was so famous that he had a batting average threshold named after him!
Darryl Strawberry was pretty famous too.
A single famous incident is not enough. Straw's fame has little to do with the game of baseball.
Question for the no voters: Should any owners be eligible?
The Cow
07-07-04, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
I'm curious about the hatred for Big Stein. Are people mad at him for his spending? Blame the system, not him. Would you rather have him pocket all those profits (and get really fat) instead of putting it back into the team?
Would you put Jerry Jones in the football HOF? Or Jerry Buss in the Basketball HOF?
Red Dog
07-07-04, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by The Cow
Would you put Jerry Jones in the football HOF? Or Jerry Buss in the Basketball HOF?
Jerry Buss? Yes. Jerry Jones? No.
Note: I assume that Buss has owned the Lakers for 25+ years, correct?
El Scorcho
07-07-04, 01:13 PM
It's tough to say if any owners should belong in the baseball HOF since most "owners" aren't individuals anymore but instead are corporations.
B.A.
07-07-04, 01:15 PM
As long as they are putting owners in there - then he deserves to be there.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by El Scorcho
It's tough to say if any owners should belong in the baseball HOF since most "owners" aren't individuals anymore but instead are corporations.
Down the road, certainly a valid argument. However, there are owners currently in the Hall (I for one cannot figure out why Clark Griffith is in there).
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Quake1028
Why does this not surprise anyone?
Well, I dont think Tom Yawkey deserves to be in either.
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
I'm curious about the hatred for Big Stein. Are people mad at him for his spending? Blame the system, not him. Would you rather have him pocket all those profits (and get really fat) instead of putting it back into the team?
I dont blame him for spending the money. Id be pissed if the Red Sox spent $20 million on the team with all the revenue they bring in. I dont think Steinbenner should be in the HOF because he didnt do anything great. Give me all the money he makes, and Id put together some great teams, too.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
I dont blame him for spending the money. Id be pissed if the Red Sox spent $20 million on the team with all the revenue they bring in. I dont think Steinbenner should be in the HOF because he didnt do anything great. Give me all the money he makes, and Id put together some great teams, too.
His teams have won 6 WS in the last 27 years, due in large part to lure free agents and hire the right people to run the club and the farm system - yes, due to money. They have 10 A.L. pennants in that same time. Nobody else is close. Furthermore, again, it is not the Hall of Greatness.
shizawn
07-07-04, 02:20 PM
As much as I despise him, I believe he belongs in the HOF.
Mordred
07-07-04, 02:47 PM
I voted no, but I think that was more of a knee jerk reaction. Now I'm on the undecided fence.
Question though, what has George done for the game of baseball? He's fielded a winning team for many years and done a great job of marketing that success into a popular and hated team. But what has he done? It seems that if George is in the HoF, someone like Jerry Jones deserves to be in the football HoF since he's done basically the same thing, only without the time length. It seems to me that paying for a winning and popular team might not be enough though.
I'm not sure why Yawkey, Commiskey and Griffith are in the hall of fame, but I would assume that they greatly helped the spread of baseball during it's formative years as the national pasttime. I do know why Veeck is enshrined as he was a visionary, an insane promoter and possibly the craziest individual to ever own a team. I'm all for his (and probably the other three's) enshrinement. I think to get in the HoF as an owner you need to do more for the game. Whether you think George is ruining baseball or not he's certainly done everything he can for his team, I'm just not sure that's enough to qualify.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 02:53 PM
The economics of the NFL did not change when Jerry Jones entered the NFL. Other than that, he has 3 titles, which can be said of several other owners. That does not make one HOF-worthy.
Now you want to talk about 2 men who changed the economics of the NFL - I give you Pete Rozelle and Art Modell for how they recognized the concepts of marriage of television and football and revenue sharing.
NCMojo
07-07-04, 03:48 PM
It is also true that without George Steinbrenner, there would have been no Catfish Hunter signing -- which ushered in the era of free agency, itself a major turning point in the game.
I think John Odell had it right -- can you talk about the history of baseball over the past thirty years and not invoke the name of George Steinbrenner? I can't see how you could avoid it.
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
His teams have won 6 WS in the last 27 years, due in large part to lure free agents and hire the right people to run the club and the farm system - yes, due to money. They have 10 A.L. pennants in that same time. Nobody else is close.
I think there are plenty of owners who could have done just as good a job if they had the amount of money to spend as George.
Furthermore, again, it is not the Hall of Greatness.
Do you think the HOF should be judged soley on Fame? Is that your argument? I wonder how many writers vote based on fame? There are plenty of people in the HOF who arent famous.
lstorm
07-07-04, 04:05 PM
What's so great about a guy with a lot of money?
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by NCMojo
I think John Odell had it right -- can you talk about the history of baseball over the past thirty years and not invoke the name of George Steinbrenner? I can't see how you could avoid it.
Can you recap the history of the past 30 years and not invoke the name of Donald Fehr? Or Bud Selig?
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
I think there are plenty of owners who could have done just as good a job if they had the amount of money to spend as George.
Pure speculation. As a Boston fan, what has the 2nd highest payroll gotten you? Zip. The Orioles had the highest payroll a few years in the late 90s and got jack for it.
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Do you think the HOF should be judged soley on Fame? Is that your argument? I wonder how many writers vote based on fame? There are plenty of people in the HOF who arent famous.
Greatness on the field is clearly the best way to achieve fame in the HOF context.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Can you recap the history of the past 30 years and not invoke the name of Donald Fehr? Or Bud Selig?
Donald Fehr should most certainly be inducted as well. His impact on MLB is probably greater than anyone over the last 30 years.
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Pure speculation. As a Boston fan, what has the 2nd highest payroll gotten you? Zip. The Orioles had the highest payroll a few years in the late 90s and got jack for it.
Sure, the Yankees made some good moves. But how good would Steinbrenner look if he bought a different team awhile ago? The reason the Yankee have been consistently good for so long is because of their revenue, not because Steinbrenner is so great.
And thats not to say he has been a shitty owner. Far from it. Hes made some great moves. I just dont think he's HOF worthy. But Im not sure why Tom Yawkey made the Hall, either. And Ill go one step further, Steinbrenner deserves to be in the HOF more than Yawkey.
Greatness on the field is clearly the best way to achieve fame in the HOF context.
:confused: Didnt you say that its not the Hall of Greatness?
NCMojo
07-07-04, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Donald Fehr should most certainly be inducted as well. His impact on MLB is probably greater than anyone over the last 30 years. I concur. And as much as I despise Bug Selig, he has had a tremendous impact on the game. Hell, the 2002 All Star Game alone should guarantee him induction.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Sure, the Yankees made some good moves. But how good would Steinbrenner look if he bought a different team awhile ago? The reason the Yankee have been consistently good for so long is because of their revenue, not because Steinbrenner is so great.
And thats not to say he has been a shitty owner. Far from it. Hes made some great moves. I just dont think he's HOF worthy. But Im not sure why Tom Yawkey made the Hall, either. And Ill go one step further, Steinbrenner deserves to be in the HOF more than Yawkey.
:confused: Didnt you say that its not the Hall of Greatness?
You can play this speculation game until the cows come home. How would this pitcher have done had he played for B instead of A. What would Joe Torre have done had he coached in Detroit rather than New York. The fact is that you look at what happened. Not what might have happened.
I really don't understand your confusion. It is not exclusively a Hall of Greatness. There are number of ways to earn hall-worthy fame IMO. Greatness on the field is one way. Being a force that changed the very nature of the league is clearly another way. It shouldn't matter whether that force is a son of a bitch.
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
You can play this speculation game until the cows come home. How would this pitcher have done had he played for B instead of A. What would Joe Torre have done had he coached in Detroit rather than New York. The fact is that you look at what happened. Not what might have happened.
But you have to take situations into account. Steinbrenner has a huge advantage over other owners.
I really don't understand your confusion. It is not exclusively a Hall of Greatness. There are number of ways to earn hall-worthy fame IMO. Greatness on the field is one way. Being a force that changed the very nature of the league is clearly another way. It shouldn't matter whether that force is a son of a bitch.
Of course it should matter. The HOF should be reserved for people who had a positive influence on the game, which is why playes who threw the World Series arent in there.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
But you have to take situations into account. Steinbrenner has a huge advantage over other owners.
Of course it should matter. The HOF should be reserved for people who had a positive influence on the game, which is why playes who threw the World Series arent in there.
Yeah and part of that economic advantage is earned, which you don't want to acknowledge. Also, when they did win their 4 WS in 5 years, the disparity was nowhere near as great as it has been in the last 2 seasons.
Positive influence? What exactly is a positive influence?
Let me ask you something. If George had bought the Sox and the Sox won 6 WS in the last 27 years using the same exact kind of management style (including revolutionizing free agency) and spending the same kind of money, would you still say he does not belong in the HOF?
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Yeah and part of that economic advantage is earned, which you don't want to acknowledge.
Positive influence? What exactly is a positive influence?
Its not that hard to figure out.
Let me ask you something. If George had bought the Sox and the Sox won 6 WS in the last 27 years using the same exact kind of management style and spending the same kind of money, would you still say he did belong in the HOF?
Well, you probably wont believe this (i dont blame you -wink- ), but if he had big advantage that nobody else had, then no. Its the same reason I wouldnt think Brain Cashman should be in the HOF. I realize that Steinbrenner is partially responsible for the revenue he generates, but I feel that since nobody else has that oppurtunity, that he shouldnt be in the HOF.
Mad Dawg
07-07-04, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
What would Joe Torre have done had he coached in Detroit rather than New York.
Well, we know that Joe Torre was a career 894-1003 manager prior to taking over the Yankees. He managed the Braves to 1st place in '82, which was his only first place finish in 15 seasons of managing until he took over the Yankees.
Anyway, the only hesitation I have when it comes to giving Steinbrenner a spot is the fact that he has surrounded himself with outstanding people. Gene Michael deserves a ton of credit for the Yankees of the '90s and early '00s. But I'd probably lean toward putting him in.
I don't feel good. :(
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Mad Dawg
We
Anyway, the only hesitation I have when it comes to giving Steinbrenner a spot is the fact that he has surrounded himself with outstanding people.
That goes in the plus column if you ask me.
Its not that hard to figure out.
Well let's find out. Ty Cobb? Positive influence on the game? Bill Veeck? Positive influence? Gaylord Perry? Positive influence?
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Well let's find out. Ty Cobb? Positive influence on the game? Bill Veeck? Positive influence? Gaylord Perry? Positive influence?
Sure Ty Cobb deserves to be in the HOF. Hes one of the greatest players in history. If you are a player or manger, it should be based on your stats or managing record, provided you dont do something that equally damgages baseball, like throwing a game. If youre not a player, then you should get in by positively contributing to baseball.
Im not too up on my Veeck or Perry history. Ill look them up.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Sure Ty Cobb deserves to be in the HOF. Hes one of the greatest players in history. If you are a player or manger, it should be based on your stats or managing record, provided you dont do something that equally damgages baseball, like throwing a game. If youre not a player, then you should get in by positively contributing to baseball.
Im not too up on my Veeck or Perry history. Ill look them up.
You might want to look up how the nature of the league changed because of Stein in the 1970s as well. ;)
Okay - so what does a non-player have to do to positively contribute to baseball? You said it is not hard to figure out, so just tell me.
Mad Dawg
07-07-04, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by chrisih8u
Im not too up on my Veeck or Perry history. Ill look them up.
See: Eddie Gaedel and the spitball.
Red Dog
07-07-04, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Mad Dawg
See: Eddie Gaedel and the spitball.
Include disco demolition night (resulting in a riot and forfeit) with Gaedel for Veeck.
Mad Dawg
07-07-04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
Include disco demolition night (resulting in a riot and forfeit) with Gaedel for Veeck.
:lol: Yeah, but you gotta love those uniforms.
http://img48.exs.cx/img48/2816/shorts.jpg
Red Dog
07-07-04, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Mad Dawg
:lol: Yeah, but you gotta love those uniforms.
Who likes short shorts? ;)
I'm outta here for the time being - I'll check back later tonight or tomorrow.
chrisih8u
07-07-04, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Red Dog
You might want to look up how the nature of the league changed because of Stein in the 1970s as well. ;)
How about you enlighten me. I'm curious as to what Steinbrenner has done besides spend a bunch of money to win games. And he isnt even directly responsible for that. It wasnt too prominently feaured in the article on page 1. I'll grant you that Im not up on my 70's Steinbrenner history, either. :)
Okay - so what does a non-player have to do to positively contribute to baseball? You said it is not hard to figure out, so just tell me. [/B]
There isnt some certain list of things. There are a bunch of people in the HOF who have never played. Like announcers, writers, umpires etc. I really dont see how an owner nowadays should be in the HOF. They dont really do that much.
Buy: