Diamondbacks fire Manager

[Josh H]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=18334

Pretty lame. Not his fault the teams economics have went to hell, that they've made dumb trades and had big injuries.

[Jericho]

True it wasn't his fault, but he's always been a pretty crappy manager anyways. Of course few managers have Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling at their best to carry them

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
True it wasn't his fault, but he's always been a pretty crappy manager anyways. Of course few managers have Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling at their best to carry them

Says you. He wasn't horrible, and he wasn't great. He was criticized for using his bullpen too much. There is some validity to that, but there are also outside circumstances that necesitated that.

If there's one thing I know about him, he always preached small ball. He was very adamant about players being able to sac bunt and move the runners over. One of the critical breakdowns of the D-backs this season were those very reason.

Overall, I wish him well. At a minimum, he can easily pick up a color commentator job somewhere in the league. He was among the best when he did that.

[Deftones]

Robin Yount quit as soon as word came down that Brenly was fired. :lol:

So now we are down two coaches. Al Pedrique, is taking over, as expected.

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
Says you. He wasn't horrible, and he wasn't great. He was criticized for using his bullpen too much. There is some validity to that, but there are also outside circumstances that necesitated that.


Says me and most of baseball experts who actually give an honest opinion and not some political correct nicety

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
Says me and most of baseball experts who actually give an honest opinion and not some political correct nicety

rotfl

Ok, sorry. I must've missed your ESPN article on it.

[damn_skippy]

:lol: diamondbacks suck. Serves them right.


Fixed. Sorry for my scratcho moment.

[El Scorcho]

Originally posted by damn_skippy
:lol: diamondbacks suck. Deserves them right.

Typical "Dodger Fan" grammar.

:lol:

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
rotfl

Ok, sorry. I must've missed your ESPN article on it.

Just like I missed your article on how awesome Brenly is

[El Scorcho]

Brenly can't be that bad. He did win a WS.

Sure, he had two of the 10 best starters (5 if you wanna argue about it) in the game, but those starters only perform in about 40% of the team's games.

Outside of Luis Gonzalez, they didn't have a real major offensive threat.

Their bullpen wasn't the most impressive bullpen on the planet either.

Yet they still won the WS. So you gotta give props to Brenly.

[damn_skippy]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
Typical "Dodger Fan" grammar.

:lol:


:lol:

Yeah giants sucks also too.;)

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
Just like I missed your article on how awesome Brenly is

I never said he was awesome, first of all.

And why should I have to justify anything he did? He won a WS title, and 2 Division titles. The team did it with hardly an offensive threat on the team other than Luis Gonzalez.

So, since you are "in the know", what made Brenly such a bad manager? I'd really know an "insiders" perspective on this.

[Thrush]

Originally posted by damn_skippy
:lol: diamondbacks suck. Serves them right.



http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/1074.gif

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
I never said he was awesome, first of all.

And why should I have to justify anything he did? He won a WS title, and 2 Division titles. The team did it with hardly an offensive threat on the team other than Luis Gonzalez.

So, since you are "in the know", what made Brenly such a bad manager? I'd really know an "insiders" perspective on this.

If you don't think he's awesome, why are you rushing to his defense?

Let me ask you this, do you really think baseball managers make much of a difference? Either for good or bad? Because I don't. Teams win laregly based on talent. Even at their best (or worst), I don't believe managers make more than a few games difference. So the fact that the Diamondbacks once won a world series isn't so important to me.

Here an ESPN article on Brenly's suckage:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/011105.html

Basically he overmanages, leaves his starters out ot dry, and he certainly didn't help his image with that ridiculous Ben Davis tirade a few years back. He managed to win when he got two of the dominant pitchers in the game, not to mention some other talented players (Finley, Luis Gonzalez, Kim, Mantei, etc...)

[Jericho]

Originally posted by El Scorcho
Brenly can't be that bad. He did win a WS.

Sure, he had two of the 10 best starters (5 if you wanna argue about it) in the game, but those starters only perform in about 40% of the team's games.

Outside of Luis Gonzalez, they didn't have a real major offensive threat.

Their bullpen wasn't the most impressive bullpen on the planet either.

Yet they still won the WS. So you gotta give props to Brenly.

Hell Cito Gaston won two World Series

The Diamondbacks won 100 gams in '99 under Showalter. They were plenty talented, and then they added Curt Schilling.

The team also had a good offense in '01, with Reggie Sanders hitting 33 HRs, and most of tht eother old guys being mildly productive, Grace, Williams, Jay Bell.. In fact they finished 3rd in the league in runs. And this team has no offense?

Their bullpen wasn't great, but wasn't horrible either. And Kim was one of the game's better closers. Other than him, the only reliever with an ERA under 3 was Prinz, but at least the regular guys kept their ERA in the 4s. And Miguel Batista was good when used out of the pen.

The team was very good with or without Brenly

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
If you don't think he's awesome, why are you rushing to his defense?

Let me ask you this, do you really think baseball managers make much of a difference? Either for good or bad? Because I don't. Teams win laregly based on talent. Even at their best (or worst), I don't believe managers make more than a few games difference. So the fact that the Diamondbacks once won a world series isn't so important to me.

Here an ESPN article on Brenly's suckage:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/011105.html

Basically he overmanages, leaves his starters out ot dry, and he certainly didn't help his image with that ridiculous Ben Davis tirade a few years back. He managed to win when he got two of the dominant pitchers in the game, not to mention some other talented players (Finley, Luis Gonzalez, Kim, Mantei, etc...)

I'm not rushing to his defense. I'm simply stating that he's certainly not as bad as you make him out to be.

Second, that article is pure shit. It's on ****ing Page 2 of ESPN. You can't honestly read that and take it seriously. Now, if Gammons or Neyer or Stark had written an article about Brenly, that's another story. The purpose of Page 2 is simply for entertainment value. So, if that's what you are relying on, I won't even bother responding to anything you say further.

Oh, so because the fact he's a baseball purist, he's a bad manager? I mean come on. If you were the manager of a team, and some bitch ass player bunted to break up a perfect game, you'd be pissed as hell. So, I don't buy it for a second you wouldn't back up your pitcher and a team in that situation.

Leaves starters out to dry? rotfl
Have you not kept up with this season at all? One of the biggest gripes among baseball people "in the know" is that Brenly is overtaxing his bullpen. Of course, that would be the direct opposite of leaving his starters out to dry.

[chrisih8u]

:wave:


I can attest to the fact that managers can screw you out of a World Series birth.

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
I'm not rushing to his defense. I'm simply stating that he's certainly not as bad as you make him out to be.

Second, that article is pure shit. It's on ****ing Page 2 of ESPN. You can't honestly read that and take it seriously. Now, if Gammons or Neyer or Stark had written an article about Brenly, that's another story. The purpose of Page 2 is simply for entertainment value. So, if that's what you are relying on, I won't even bother responding to anything you say further.


All I said is that Brenly is not a good manager. There are 30 big league managers, and a majority of them I would have taken over Brenly. That article is from Bill Simmons. I realize Bill Simmons isn't Mr. Baseball, but he does know his stuff. And here's an interesting chat involving Rob Neyer and Brenly:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2057731/entry/2058007/
http://slate.msn.com/id/2057731/entry/2058016/

So there's Rob Neyer in print ripping into Brenly.

"I mean, I thought he made at least one truly horrible move in the Division Series, but I doubt if Dierker has ever managed a postseason game as poorly as Brenly managed Game 4" - Rob Neyer

"Because he didn't have any business asking a 22-year-old Korean relief pitcher to throw 61 pitches in a World Series game at Yankee Stadium, and he certainly didn't have any business asking that same 22-year-old Korean relief pitcher to come back the next night and do it all over again.

They say that every World Series has a goat. Well, I nominate the manager." - Rob Neyer

"Because in a game as lopsided as this, where the box score looks like a spring training game broke out in the middle of the World Series, Bob Brenly has somehow managed to make a decision that completely hamstrings his team’s chances of winning tomorrow." - Rany Jazayerli

"No, it didn’t. But, good lord, compared to some of the moves Bob Brenly made tonight, his decision to stick with Kim looks like pure genius.

If the Diamondbacks lose the Series—and that suddenly looks quite likely—Kim is going to be the goat, much like Mark Wohlers got the blame for the Series-tying homer he gave up to Jim Leyritz in 1996. But Kim didn’t lose Game 4. Bob Brenly did, and it isn’t even close." - Rany Jazayerli

"Who knows? Maybe some of the fans were smart enough to know that it was mostly Brenly's fault anyway." - Rany Jazayerli

<b>"The answer, of course, is that there is no justice in sports. If there were justice, Bob Brenly would never be remembered as a World Series-winning manager, because he didn't do a damn thing to win the World Series." - Rob Neyer</b>

<b>"It wasn't personal; it was strictly business. Bob Brenly had screwed his team 18 ways from Sunday, perhaps the worst managerial job I have ever seen in the postseason, and he didn't deserve to win. - Rany Jazayerli </b>

Do I need to go on? Or do have enough proof from sources you like? And here's another thing, I can also think for myself an can see from years of managing that Brenly isn't a good one.

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
All I said is that Brenly is not a good manager. There are 30 big league managers, and a majority of them I would have taken over Brenly. That article is from Bill Simmons. I realize Bill Simmons isn't Mr. Baseball, but he does know his stuff. And here's an interesting chat involving Rob Neyer and Brenly:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2057731/entry/2058007/
http://slate.msn.com/id/2057731/entry/2058016/

So there's Rob Neyer in print ripping into Brenly.

"I mean, I thought he made at least one truly horrible move in the Division Series, but I doubt if Dierker has ever managed a postseason game as poorly as Brenly managed Game 4" - Rob Neyer

"Because he didn't have any business asking a 22-year-old Korean relief pitcher to throw 61 pitches in a World Series game at Yankee Stadium, and he certainly didn't have any business asking that same 22-year-old Korean relief pitcher to come back the next night and do it all over again.

They say that every World Series has a goat. Well, I nominate the manager." - Rob Neyer

"Because in a game as lopsided as this, where the box score looks like a spring training game broke out in the middle of the World Series, Bob Brenly has somehow managed to make a decision that completely hamstrings his team’s chances of winning tomorrow." - Rany Jazayerli

"No, it didn’t. But, good lord, compared to some of the moves Bob Brenly made tonight, his decision to stick with Kim looks like pure genius.

If the Diamondbacks lose the Series—and that suddenly looks quite likely—Kim is going to be the goat, much like Mark Wohlers got the blame for the Series-tying homer he gave up to Jim Leyritz in 1996. But Kim didn’t lose Game 4. Bob Brenly did, and it isn’t even close." - Rany Jazayerli

"Who knows? Maybe some of the fans were smart enough to know that it was mostly Brenly's fault anyway." - Rany Jazayerli

<b>"The answer, of course, is that there is no justice in sports. If there were justice, Bob Brenly would never be remembered as a World Series-winning manager, because he didn't do a damn thing to win the World Series." - Rob Neyer</b>

<b>"It wasn't personal; it was strictly business. Bob Brenly had screwed his team 18 ways from Sunday, perhaps the worst managerial job I have ever seen in the postseason, and he didn't deserve to win. - Rany Jazayerli </b>

Do I need to go on? Or do have enough proof from sources you like? And here's another thing, I can also think for myself an can see from years of managing that Brenly isn't a good one.

So, this one decision in the WS in 2001 is the sole reason he's a shitty manager? :lol:

You never even answered my question. Why do you think he's such a bad manager? You either one, can't articulate your reasons, or two are just too afraid to.

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
So, this one decision in the WS in 2001 is the sole reason he's a shitty manager? :lol:

You never even answered my question. Why do you think he's such a bad manager? You either one, can't articulate your reasons, or two are just too afraid to.

It's not one decision, it's the entire world series and playoffs for that matter. I guess you really din't read that article too carefully did you? I love how your retorts are just a :lol: sign and nothing more, quite insightful yourself.

I think I've mentioned why Brenly is not a good manager. If you want more so be it. Brenly did nothing for the Diamondbacks young players, specifically Durazo and Overbay. He overmanages and plays small ball when every statistical notion goes the other way. He seems to constantly make questionable decisions that are based on no logic. He seems to ride pitchers until they get hurt. And as of late the team had mega problems, including: errors, missed signs, bad in-game decisons/strategy, and bad pitching moves. And of course almost all experts, including Rob Neyer, basically think he botched the World series hardcore. And if that were not enough to push anyone over the edge into hating him, there was the ridiculous Ben Davis tirade I previously mentioned and the fact that he and Joe Torre were the main reasons there was a tie in the all-star game a few years back. I gave you an article ripping him. You dismissed it as Page 2 nonsense and asked for something from Rob Neyer. I gave you a ton of Rob Neyer bashing Brenly. And yet still you persist with some notion there's no evidence people don't think he's a good manager. Take off your hometown blinders for once, and you might see something a lot of people saw a while ago.

P.S. I found this one humorous...

http://www.twistedfans.com/brenly.html

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
It's not one decision, it's the entire world series and playoffs for that matter. I guess you really din't read that article too carefully did you? I love how your retorts are just a :lol: sign and nothing more, quite insightful yourself.

I think I've mentioned why Brenly is not a good manager. If you want more so be it. Brenly did nothing for the Diamondbacks young players, specifically Durazo and Overbay. He overmanages and plays small ball when every statistical notion goes the other way. He seems to constantly make questionable decisions that are based on no logic. He seems to ride pitchers until they get hurt. And as of late the team had mega problems, including: errors, missed signs, bad in-game decisons/strategy, and bad pitching moves. And of course almost all experts, including Rob Neyer, basically think he botched the World series hardcore. And if that were not enough to push anyone over the edge into hating him, there was the ridiculous Ben Davis tirade I previously mentioned and the fact that he and Joe Torre were the main reasons there was a tie in the all-star game a few years back. I gave you an article ripping him. You dismissed it as Page 2 nonsense and asked for something from Rob Neyer. I gave you a ton of Rob Neyer bashing Brenly. And yet still you persist with some notion there's no evidence people don't think he's a good manager. Take off your hometown blinders for once, and you might see something a lot of people saw a while ago.

P.S. I found this one humorous...

http://www.twistedfans.com/brenly.html


Wow, you have no clue about AZ baseball do you.

And no, you haven't given me any reason why you think he's bad until now. Sure, link me to all kinds of other people's opinion, but you can't offer up your own.

Durazo was a wash from the day he got here. Brenly gave him shot upon shot to prove himself at 1B. Not only did he prove that he couldn't field worth a shit, he also proved that he was inconsistent as hell. Sure he'd hit 2 HRs in a game, but then he'd be stone cold dead for a week. No consistency = no playing time.

As for Overbay, the issue was similar. He was hot and cold. When he was on, he was on. When he was off, he was off bad. The problem w/ Overbay was that he's not a power guy but much more of a gap to gap guy, so they couldn't put him in the 3rd or 4th slot at that time. He probably could've hit in the 2 spot, but he doesn't have enough speed. So he had to get bumped down to the 5/6/7 slot alot. Unfortunately, it had to be that way w/ the talent the D-backs had at the time. The reason why he's having more success in Milwuakee is where he's hitting in the batting order. However, Brenly didn't trade Overbay away. Maybe you should focus your ill-fated contempt for Brenly on Joe Garagiola Jr. for that.

The pitching thing is stupid and ludicrous. There was an article in the Arizona Republic about a week or before Brenly got fired about this so called "over-taxing" of the bullpen. The article showed that Brenly used his bullpen an equivolent amount or less than other teams with similar records. Part of the problem this year, is the that the majority of the starts by D-backs pitchers haven't gone into the later innings. It's a catch 22 situation. You either leave them out there, and let them continue to get shelled, or you bring in the bullpen and try to hold the opponent so that it's still a game. No pitcher ever got hurt because Brenly put them in the game. They got hurt because they didn't tell him they couldn't pitch. He doesn't read minds.

Where do you get this of late bad pitching decisions, strategy and missing signs crap? Do you watch every game? I really would like specifics.

The only missed sign was the last night they lost, before the two games they won. Hairston missed a sign to bunt a guy over. Where was his ass the next two games, and even continuing after Brenly's firing? That's right, on the bench. I don't know how you can fault a manager for a player missing the sign. That's like blaming your teacher for marking your math problem wrong because you didn't do it right. You seem to also imply that fielding errors are also Brenly's fault. Awesome logic! :up:

As for the Ben Davis, that has already been discussed. I don't have home town blinders. I hated Showalter from the beginning. I was the first guy to dance for joy when he was fired. I also do not like this new guy Pedrique. He's heavily favoring the Latin players like Cintron who have been struggling all year over guys like Hairston, who did make a huge mistake of late, but is hitting the cover off the ball.

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Deftones, Esq
Wow, you have no clue about AZ baseball do you.

And no, you haven't given me any reason why you think he's bad until now. Sure, link me to all kinds of other people's opinion, but you can't offer up your own.

Durazo was a wash from the day he got here. Brenly gave him shot upon shot to prove himself at 1B. Not only did he prove that he couldn't field worth a shit, he also proved that he was inconsistent as hell. Sure he'd hit 2 HRs in a game, but then he'd be stone cold dead for a week. No consistency = no playing time.

As for Overbay, the issue was similar. He was hot and cold. When he was on, he was on. When he was off, he was off bad. The problem w/ Overbay was that he's not a power guy but much more of a gap to gap guy, so they couldn't put him in the 3rd or 4th slot at that time. He probably could've hit in the 2 spot, but he doesn't have enough speed. So he had to get bumped down to the 5/6/7 slot alot. Unfortunately, it had to be that way w/ the talent the D-backs had at the time. The reason why he's having more success in Milwuakee is where he's hitting in the batting order. However, Brenly didn't trade Overbay away. Maybe you should focus your ill-fated contempt for Brenly on Joe Garagiola Jr. for that.

The pitching thing is stupid and ludicrous. There was an article in the Arizona Republic about a week or before Brenly got fired about this so called "over-taxing" of the bullpen. The article showed that Brenly used his bullpen an equivolent amount or less than other teams with similar records. Part of the problem this year, is the that the majority of the starts by D-backs pitchers haven't gone into the later innings. It's a catch 22 situation. You either leave them out there, and let them continue to get shelled, or you bring in the bullpen and try to hold the opponent so that it's still a game. No pitcher ever got hurt because Brenly put them in the game. They got hurt because they didn't tell him they couldn't pitch. He doesn't read minds.

Where do you get this of late bad pitching decisions, strategy and missing signs crap? Do you watch every game? I really would like specifics.

The only missed sign was the last night they lost, before the two games they won. Hairston missed a sign to bunt a guy over. Where was his ass the next two games, and even continuing after Brenly's firing? That's right, on the bench. I don't know how you can fault a manager for a player missing the sign. That's like blaming your teacher for marking your math problem wrong because you didn't do it right. You seem to also imply that fielding errors are also Brenly's fault. Awesome logic! :up:

As for the Ben Davis, that has already been discussed. I don't have home town blinders. I hated Showalter from the beginning. I was the first guy to dance for joy when he was fired. I also do not like this new guy Pedrique. He's heavily favoring the Latin players like Cintron who have been struggling all year over guys like Hairston, who did make a huge mistake of late, but is hitting the cover off the ball.

I think the problem is that you don't understand Arizona baseball as well as you think. Brenly didn't play Durazo or Overbay enough to give them a shot. You say Durazo ran hot and cold. True, but what player doesn't? And don't you think it's possible that their lack of consistency was because they weren't given more PT?

You want specifics? Well I don't have detailed game logs of every Diamondbacks game. How about specifics of when Brenly made good moves? But I think the entire World Series article with Rob Neyer details many specifics. So take any of them. As for more recently, I don't have a game log. Do you?

The bottom line is, you can believe whatever you want about Bob Brenly. I've read many articles calling him a bad manager. I've seen him make many mistakes. He is basically ripped for his management of the World Series. I gave you an article from your boy Rob Neyer ripping into him. You asked for "proof", and there's your proof. You can either ignore it (and many other baseball people) or consider it. I've seen nothing to suggest Brenly was good. I've seen plenty to suggest he was bad. He didn't develop Arizona's young players. I've seen high pitch counts and several pitcher's injuries. And then there's the World Series. What evidence do you have in his favor? I mean you say you didn't like Showalter (neither do I), but he led them to a better record than Brenly ever did. So it can't just be the record.

[Deftones]

Originally posted by Jericho
I think the problem is that you don't understand Arizona baseball as well as you think. Brenly didn't play Durazo or Overbay enough to give them a shot. You say Durazo ran hot and cold. True, but what player doesn't? And don't you think it's possible that their lack of consistency was because they weren't given more PT?

You want specifics? Well I don't have detailed game logs of every Diamondbacks game. How about specifics of when Brenly made good moves? But I think the entire World Series article with Rob Neyer details many specifics. So take any of them. As for more recently, I don't have a game log. Do you?

The bottom line is, you can believe whatever you want about Bob Brenly. I've read many articles calling him a bad manager. I've seen him make many mistakes. He is basically ripped for his management of the World Series. I gave you an article from your boy Rob Neyer ripping into him. You asked for "proof", and there's your proof. You can either ignore it (and many other baseball people) or consider it. I've seen nothing to suggest Brenly was good. I've seen plenty to suggest he was bad. He didn't develop Arizona's young players. I've seen high pitch counts and several pitcher's injuries. And then there's the World Series. What evidence do you have in his favor? I mean you say you didn't like Showalter (neither do I), but he led them to a better record than Brenly ever did. So it can't just be the record.

You've read many articles. Where? You've only provided one "article" and it wasn't even that. It was a chat log from Rob Neyer.

As for Durazo, again you are commenting on something you don't know anything about. If you look at his 2001/2002 stats, they were pretty bad. The hot/cold comment was directed at how he'd be hot for a week or two, and cold for a month. Typically, MLB players don't go through a month long slump.

Overbay was another story. However, during both Durazo's and Overbay's tenure here, they had a Gold Glove winning 1B that was bound to get some playing time. The D-backs could afford to give up some power that Durazo provided, since his fielding was piss poor.

The real bottom line is, you have an opinion that he's a bad manager. I happen to disagree. This isn't exactly based upon statistical data.

Let me ask you, how many D-backs games have you watched in person? On TV?

I live here, and I make it a point to be at 20 - 30 games per year and watch at least 100 of them on TV. So I'd say I'm probably in a better decision to critique someone's managing style, rather some person who's probably never watched more than a few games on TV.

High pitch counts? rotfl

You obviously don't watch the games. There hasn't been a game this season where Fossum or Webb went much over 100 pitches if that. I guarantee you, if you look back to Webb's phenomenal year last year as well, you'll see the same thing.

The only two pitchers that ever had high pitch counts were RJ and Schilling, and that because they could handle it.